Use of M2 as a portable weapon.

[Wyrmshadow]

Was the M2 ever used in WW2 as a crew served, man portable weapon? I've seen many photos of it on a tripod but they are all modern.
The reason for this is I am doing some animation and I've already done a WW1 vickers and I'm about to start on some WW2 items. I want to know if I should try to go for an M2 or stick with the M1919 .30 Browning.
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h199/Wyrmshadow3/CsMachineGun.gifhttp://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h199/Wyrmshadow3/Mgun.gif

If it was used as such, does anyone have any pictures of how it was carried?

[Hellfish]

Yes. In WWII each infantry company had an M2HB machinegun issued to it (hell, I think my infantry company in 1996 had one too, though we never used it). The .50 was used as a crew served weapon. If memory serves, there were usually 5 men assigned to it - one for the barrel, one for the receiver group, one with the tripod and two ammo bearers.

[Wyrmshadow]

Thanks for the reply.
5 men? I don't think I'll be able to do 5! I had a hard enough time just trying to do 2 guys at once. Maybe I could do it with 3.

[Hellfish]

Three men would probably work best. Using your animation on the right as an example, one guy would be lifting the front, then one guy on each side of the tripod.

[Flagg]

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/6356/28389064ob6.th.jpg (http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=28389064ob6.jpg)

I don't know about all you losers, but in NZ we eat so much Wheatbix and Marmite we carry it as an individual weapon :)

However, it did take an entire platoon to ensure "my" M2 didn't get pinched by dodgy Diggers ;)

[Bushranger]

Where did you find that one hiding??? Solomons or Timor ??

[Flagg]

Where did you find that one hiding??? Solomons or Timor ??

Just like a dodgy Aussie......trying to mess with my junk....i'm not falling for your jedi mind tricks...these aren't the droids you're looking for mate ;)

[Bushranger]

Im calling the MP's.

Good find no matter where you got it or stole it from. :)

[playtym]

If it was used as such, does anyone have any pictures of how it was carried?

Our LMG gunners used to just carry the things like this.

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/4783/50calpi2.jpg

[Wyrmshadow]

Any scans from a military manual?

[rhino]

If you need a man-portable, light, and efficient HMG, I'd recommend the Russian KORD machine gun. Just sayin'.

wasnt exactly the question he asked, was it?


like hf said, three man to carry the beast, but ammo ususally carried by the rest of coy
Ill check for manuals

[Hippo]

and Im sure your extensive experience with that weapon in the motherland as well as your experience with the M2 has allowed you to make that educated opinion


sit down and shut up

[1Cie GevGn]

Belgian Combat Engineer uses them crew served. It's the heaviest thing we had (in the all-alone-blowing-the-bridge-against-the-Russki's-scenario) so we trained on carrying one on the M3 tripod thing with 3 guys (one on the barrel, 2 on the sides) and supposedly 2 in support.

We never used it during fieldexes though, but I remember running around with the thing with an instructor behind us with a megaphone yelling "IN BATTERY (deploy) OUT BATTERY (pick up and start running)

It's a nice toy.

[Basillicus]

If you need a man-portable, light, and efficient HMG, I'd recommend the Russian KORD machine gun. Just sayin'.

AFAIK Kord has pretty high rate of fire, just like NSV. My limitted experience with NSV is that the ROF is too high if it is used as a support weapon. Tripod has to be deployed very well, possibly supported with sandbags etc. or otherwise the dispersion will be a problem and the rounds will be flying all over the place. The 50 round ammo can will also be empty very soon and you don't want to carry many of those around in addition to all the other equipment. In a fixed defensive position or vehicle mount these things are probably not so serious issues, and also in AAA role (in which FDF uses it primarily) high ROF is purely a positive thing. I've never even seen a M2 but I guess it might be better suited as a portable support weapon.

[2/1kiwi]

we still use it in our Bn, 3 men as a minimum, 1 carrying the receiver 1 the barrels and 1 with the tripod, a fourth with the soft mount if its being used, each man also carrying 2 belts as well as the comd/2ic.

[LineDoggie]

Our LMG gunners used to just carry the things like this.

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/4783/50calpi2.jpg Your ammo Belt seems to have shrunk to .30 size :roll:

[LineDoggie]

I had the Unfortunate experience to be assigned with two others to get an M2HB to the top of an Icelandic "Hill" in 1999 during Ex. Northern Viking. We used a HMMWV to get about a 1/3 of the way up before it got too steep. After that it was all Manpacked to include the M19 BFA unit and 10 cans of Ammo.

We were Smoked by the end of it




Stayed there 6 hours and then they decided to move us to another Overwatch spot near Grindavik's "Ant" Farm

[Flagg]

we still use it in our Bn, 3 men as a minimum, 1 carrying the receiver 1 the barrels and 1 with the tripod, a fourth with the soft mount if its being used, each man also carrying 2 belts as well as the comd/2ic.


A mate who went on the Germany trip had a lot of fun with a real M2...unlike the rusted, broken, and bent sentry toy we had in the Sollies.

Time for me to inquire about the DFSW Course ;)

[rhino]

cant find my manuals

but I found my pic:)
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9886/11242007075433pmyx0.png

as HF said, if I remember correctly, in rush, when dismounted, the whole thing would stay together and 3 men would carry it by the legs, plus ammo:)

[Pappy]

Luckily, we've never used an M2 dismounted. We have a tripod for it and the Mk19, but that's just to setup as defensive weapons at our outpost. Linedoggie, I can only imagine how much that must have sucked.

[Ardee]

Returning to the original post, here are two WWII photos -- though not of the weapon being carried. Not to say there probably weren't two other guys hanging around just out of view, but in both cases, the camera caught only three men. Judging by the second picture, I suppose you might say it seems to be a "widespread" set up. :roll:

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-P-Papua/img/USA-P-Papua-p360.jpg

http://www.tnwfirearms.com/images/Naziwith50.jpg

[domokun]

AFAIK Kord has pretty high rate of fire, just like NSV. My limitted experience with NSV is that the ROF is too high if it is used as a support weapon. Tripod has to be deployed very well, possibly supported with sandbags etc. or otherwise the dispersion will be a problem and the rounds will be flying all over the place. The 50 round ammo can will also be empty very soon and you don't want to carry many of those around in addition to all the other equipment. In a fixed defensive position or vehicle mount these things are probably not so serious issues, and also in AAA role (in which FDF uses it primarily) high ROF is purely a positive thing. I've never even seen a M2 but I guess it might be better suited as a portable support weapon.

Kord was designed to replace NSV in Russia after Soviet union collapsed as main NSV production facilities were left in Ukraine. There is 100 rd boxes/belts for both Kord and NSV. Difference is mainly operation of bolt (from tilting bolt to rotating like in AK and PKM) and muzzle brake. Kords most interesting accessory is without doubt bipod and rifle stock equiped cradle. Bipod setup might be little hard on shooters shoulder, but I think it's mainly for tank crews escape weapons and special forces support weapon.

From what I have seen in Finnish military/weapons forums... Most of people both in and out of military have seen M2 weapons of turrets of newer Pasi's and AMW's as downgrade to having same turret with NSV.

[Wyrmshadow]

cant find my manuals

but I found my pic:)
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9886/11242007075433pmyx0.png

as HF said, if I remember correctly, in rush, when dismounted, the whole thing would stay together and 3 men would carry it by the legs, plus ammo:)

Thanks Rhino, was looking for something like that. Didn't know whether I needed to make the aimer sitting or ****e. About the other two guys.. One would feed the belt, what would be the job of the guy on the other end? I'm assuming that the M2 had a disintegrating belt back in WW2 or a cloth one like the M1919?

[SBL]

http://www.tnwfirearms.com/images/Naziwith50.jpg

What's the story with this pic? Captured and being put through its paces?

[Wyrmshadow]

What's the story with this pic? Captured and being put through its paces?

Actually that's a pretty funny coincidence because that is exactly what I plan on making.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/ustrooper_0ZN.jpg
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/ustrooper_N0b.gif

[LineDoggie]

What's the story with this pic? Captured and being put through its paces?
If you look close it also has the Original M1 Telescopic Sight Unit Mounted, thats pretty rare in pictures.

[digrar]

Time for me to inquire about the DFSW Course ;)

Sorry mate, you failed the IQ test, strictly double figure IQ's only, none of this fancy 3 figures stuff for the knuckle draggers. p-)

[Martial]

http://www.tnwfirearms.com/images/Naziwith50.jpg

That's a cool position they've dug there. I've never seen one like that...

[Sewen]

Interesting, I suppose the idea is that they want to be able to pick it up by the barrel easily, if they need to abandon their position...
and/ or changing the barrel witheout having to crawl out of the hole (that might make more sense)

[rhino]

Interesting, I suppose the idea is that they want to be able to pick it up by the barrel easily, if they need to abandon their position...

or give them a 360 arc of fire?

[flanker7]

Yes, it looks like a 360 degrees defence position

[Sewen]

That was my first thought too, but I find it hard to imagine a situation in which there's a need for a 360° dug-in position?

[Martial]

That was my first thought too, but I really can't imagine a situation in which there's a need for a 360° MG-position?

You'd have to be in some deep sh*t to need to fire backwards! :)

[Sewen]

My thoughts exactly :)

[domokun]

That was my first thought too, but I find it hard to imagine a situation in which there's a need for a 360° dug-in position?

Ever heard of HMG's used for AAA? 360 degree fire arc would be quite useful in that, okay that M2 is on tripod that is deployed in ground firing... but anyway.

[Kaplanr]

re: the Germans and the M2. 360 arc but they are awfully exposed. Looks like a field demo to me. When I was in a heavy weapons platoon in the IDF, it was a convoluted 2 man operation. 1 guy carried the receiver and tripod and the other the barrel and 2 boxes of ammo. I think we exercised it 2-3 times and realized it was a pointless task. We weren't going anywhere that an M-113 wasn't and we had 3 MAGs. Better to use the mule power for the 81mm mortar.

[Ardee]

What's the story with this pic? Captured and being put through its paces?

Hi SnakeBiteLeader,

I've come across this photo a couple of times. The site that I got it from here didn't provide any helpful information, and the file name might give pause about its accuracy, anyway: Heer soldier ≠ Nazi soldier. IIRC, one of the other sites I found it on had a caption indicating they were testing the weapon on a range. Depending on the when and where, I suppose such a range might also have a use for AA capability. :) But if that were the case, I'd expect to also see sandbags, etc. For a prepared combat position, it seems awfully exposed IMHO, with just a slightly "beveled" area surrounding their trench. I regret I have nothing more definitive to provide....

[SBL]

^That's ok, unless they Chileans or something, I think it's a pretty safe bet that it was captured and being tested.

[2/1kiwi]

Thanks Rhino, was looking for something like that. Didn't know whether I needed to make the aimer sitting or ****e. About the other two guys.. One would feed the belt, what would be the job of the guy on the other end? I'm assuming that the M2 had a disintegrating belt back in WW2 or a cloth one like the M1919?

sitting, kneeling or ****e, depends on the ground and target area, will find some pics and post them.

[LineDoggie]

They're Wehrmacht and the Belt is the early Woven Fabric one, not the Disintigrating link version more commonly used.

Also the M3 Ground Tripod isnt really usable for AA work without a Pintle extension, nor can it be used for 360 work with the T&E Mech attached. For Emergency, it can be "Free Gunned" bu it's stability is compromised.

[Martial]

So much knowledge to be found on MP.net! Tons of total crap, but so much knowledge!

[playtym]

Your ammo Belt seems to have shrunk to .30 size :roll:

Don't come and destroy my post with your logic. p-)

[2/1kiwi]

i know its not a pic thread but heres a couple of pics, i have higher res but have gone over my data cap and am now running at 56k!!

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3757/dfswcomdcse027nd6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/dfswcomdcse027nd6.jpg/1/w415.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img201/dfswcomdcse027nd6.jpg/1/)

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/5830/dfswcomdcse045mc7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/dfswcomdcse045mc7.jpg/1/w576.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img253/dfswcomdcse045mc7.jpg/1/)

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2738/dfswcomdcse121mp4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/dfswcomdcse121mp4.jpg/1/w512.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img253/dfswcomdcse121mp4.jpg/1/)

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/9933/dfswcomdcse144ol3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/dfswcomdcse144ol3.jpg/1/w576.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img104/dfswcomdcse144ol3.jpg/1/)

[Kaplanr]

http://www.tnwfirearms.com/images/Naziwith50.jpg

That's a cool position they've dug there. I've never seen one like that...

For the sake of his orthodontics I hope he moved his face back before he fired.

[Alunden]

LOL! Indeed yes. Well his othodontics will sure make his day!

[2/1kiwi]

hes firing from the pintle mount, theres not going to be much backward movement from the weapon as its the barrel that recoils

[Gunge]

i've sen a nifty 2 wheeled cart used by the HMG plt in my company way back around 1987 on a long-ass hump (pre-MCCRESS) and it made it alot easier to move, but the hills were a bitch and forget about a 3 man team luggin ammo

i find it hard to believe 1 man could carry the reciever AND the tripod unless its the incredible hulk (reciever alone is 60 lbs i believe)

3 men carrying the 3 main groups and a couple more for ammo is doable with them still being able to get it into action in a short amount of time

also the 1 man on barrel and 1 on each rear tripod leg is doable in an assault mode with ammo men but with alot of heavy personal gear thats gonna be a killer

thanks to all for great thread and cool animations too

[Gunge]

hes firing from the pintle mount, theres not going to be much backward movement from the weapon as its the barrel that recoils

i beg to differ but without a bunch of sandbags that baby IS moving backwards

[TheKiwi]

i know its not a pic thread but heres a couple of pics, i have higher res but have gone over my data cap and am now running at 56k!!

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2738/dfswcomdcse121mp4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/dfswcomdcse121mp4.jpg/1/w512.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img253/dfswcomdcse121mp4.jpg/1/)


I take it from the bare handed grip on the barrel by the front guy that it hadn't been fired recently?

[2/1kiwi]

fsmo and other equipment about 50m back, they are moving the gun into posn. Havent got any pics but they crawled the gun into posn, barrel on the shoulder and the other 2 on the legs, once in posn no marks targets with the assistance of the no 2 and no 3 is crawling back for ammo.

@ Gunge, we pin or sandbag the legs, but the tripod feet would dig themselves in when firing with minimal movement with both the pintle and softmount, was dependent on the ground and the angle of the front leg.
I have seen the gun move if not bagged but nothing major that the gun team couldnt fix in a few seconds.

[jingo399]

I believe there is a record of a U.S. Marine on Iwo Jima using one he recovered from a crashed aircraft as a personal weapon ie single handed. I forget his name but will have a look through my library, I believe he may have been killed using it. But all I can say is that he must have been a brute of a guy!

[Tribunius]

I believe there is a record of a U.S. Marine on Iwo Jima using one he recovered from a crashed aircraft as a personal weapon ie single handed. I forget his name but will have a look through my library, I believe he may have been killed using it. But all I can say is that he must have been a brute of a guy!

He used a .30 cal aircraft mg from a crashed us plane. He added a butt to it. He was killed using it.

[jingo399]

He used a .30 cal aircraft mg from a crashed us plane. He added a butt to it. He was killed using it.

I stand corrected Cheers.
Still must have been a hefty lad though, I bet it rattled his fillings. Firing it from a Ferret did mine!:|

[Kaplanr]

i've sen a nifty 2 wheeled cart used by the HMG plt in my company way back around 1987 on a long-ass hump (pre-MCCRESS) and it made it alot easier to move, but the hills were a bitch and forget about a 3 man team luggin ammo

i find it hard to believe 1 man could carry the reciever AND the tripod unless its the incredible hulk (reciever alone is 60 lbs i believe)

3 men carrying the 3 main groups and a couple more for ammo is doable with them still being able to get it into action in a short amount of time

also the 1 man on barrel and 1 on each rear tripod leg is doable in an assault mode with ammo men but with alot of heavy personal gear thats gonna be a killer

thanks to all for great thread and cool animations too

Almost, but not as green as the Hulk ;) Remember I qualified it by saying we trained it 2 or 3 times and that was it. We used our manpower to haul and extra FN MAG and mortar w/ rounds.

[Wyrmshadow]

Gentlemen, thank you for your digging.
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h199/Wyrmshadow3/Civstuff/BMGrun.gif

[LineDoggie]

I stand corrected Cheers.
Still must have been a hefty lad though, I bet it rattled his fillings. Firing it from a Ferret did mine!:|
Youn have to remember that in WW2/Korea the Browning M2HB & the M1917A1 were both Considered "Heavy" Machineguns, thats where the confusion comes from.

Both were in the Bn. Heavy Weapons Companies of the Infantry Regiments

At 41 Pounds for the watercooled filled jacket and an addtional 53 pounds for the M1917A1 Tripod it becomes a Load.

John Basilone in many recitations is referred to as using a watercooled .50 in his arms at Guadalcanal, obviously a Mistake.

A M2HB weighs in with (M3 tripod) at 126 lbs

100 rds of .50 weighs 14 pounds linked

[wildcat]

Youn have to remember that in WW2/Korea the Browning M2HB & the M1917A1 were both Considered "Heavy" Machineguns, thats where the confusion comes from.

Both were in the Bn. Heavy Weapons Companies of the Infantry Regiments

At 41 Pounds for the watercooled filled jacket and an addtional 53 pounds for the M1917A1 Tripod it becomes a Load.

John Basilone in many recitations is referred to as using a watercooled .50 in his arms at Guadalcanal, obviously a Mistake.

A M2HB weighs in with (M3 tripod) at 126 lbs

100 rds of .50 weighs 14 pounds linked

84 lbs for the receiver, 24 lbs per barrel (they is 2 to carry) plus the tripod and ammo, for a 3 man crew, it is a lot to hump around with M16 + body armor, ruck etc etc.

[Laconian]

In my experience, the M2 was only dismounted from the M113 if the unit was in a Defend a Battle Position (aka Die in Place or DIP) scenario and there was no way to get the tracks on line. Humping the .50 through an assault, movement to contact was never done in my mech unit. I've never heard of light guys doing it either, the organic M2 was to provide AA fires for the company trains. I correct myself, a Co Cdr., had his guys dismount and hump the M2 about 8-9 clicks at night to an overwatch psn one time to support a dismounted, non-illuminated night attack by his co. team. He never did it again and admitted it wasn't worth the effort.

[LineDoggie]

In my experience, the M2 was only dismounted from the M113 if the unit was in a Defend a Battle Position (aka Die in Place or DIP) scenario and there was no way to get the tracks on line. Humping the .50 through an assault, movement to contact was never done in my mech unit. I've never heard of light guys doing it either, the organic M2 was to provide AA fires for the company trains. I correct myself, a Co Cdr., had his guys dismount and hump the M2 about 8-9 clicks at night to an overwatch psn one time to support a dismounted, non-illuminated night attack by his co. team. He never did it again and admitted it wasn't worth the effort.

His Name wasnt Neidermeyer was it?

[Laconian]

No, LD, he was really a pretty good guy. It was early in his command and he was coming from a light assignment and did stuff the hard way sometimes, just because it was the hard way. He was a hard charger. He loved his company and his troops really got to love him. He was killed in a chopper crash a couple of years later. Damn shame.

[loganinkosovo]

Youn have to remember that in WW2/Korea the Browning M2HB & the M1917A1 were both Considered "Heavy" Machineguns, thats where the confusion comes from.

Both were in the Bn. Heavy Weapons Companies of the Infantry Regiments

At 41 Pounds for the watercooled filled jacket and an addtional 53 pounds for the M1917A1 Tripod it becomes a Load.

John Basilone in many recitations is referred to as using a watercooled .50 in his arms at Guadalcanal, obviously a Mistake.

A M2HB weighs in with (M3 tripod) at 126 lbs

100 rds of .50 weighs 14 pounds linked


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0JDgko-ESE



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u1Qrl5xY0Y


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckklgMDZKJA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWDlr5LMVC4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zxeSXdgT9U