South Korean Held in Iraq Pleads for Life

[Dennis G]

South Korean Held in Iraq Pleads for Life

53 minutes ago Add Top Stories - AP to My Yahoo!


By ROBERT H. REID, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The Arab satellite TV network Al-Jazeera aired a videotape Sunday purportedly from al-Qaida linked militants showing a South Korean hostage begging for his life and pleading with his government to withdraw troops from Iraq (news - web sites).

The kidnappers, who identified themselves as belonging to a group led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, gave South Korea (news - web sites) 24 hours to meet its demand or "we will send you the head of this Korean."


"Please, get out of here," the man screamed in English, flailing his arms. "I don't want to die. I don't want to die. I know that your life is important, but my life is important."


A South Korean television news station, YTN, identified the hostage as Kim Sun-il, 33, an employee of a South Korean company called Arab Trading. It said he was captured in the Fallujah area.


The video came two days after news of the beheading of American hostage Paul Johnson by al-Qaida-linked militants in Saudi Arabia, and an announcement Friday by South Korea that it will send 3,000 soldiers to northern Iraq beginning in early August. Once the deployment is complete, South Korea will be the largest coalition partner in Iraq after the United States and Britain.


After showing the hostage's plea, the tape showed him kneeling in front of three masked men, two of them armed with Kalashnikovs. The man standing in the middle read a statement in Arabic.


"Our message to the South Korean government and the Korean people: We first demand you withdraw your forces from our lands and not send more of your forces to this land. Otherwise, we will send to you the head of this Korean, and we will follow it by the heads of your other soldiers."


The statement gave Seoul 24 hours from sunset Sunday to meet its demand.


The group identified itself as Monotheism and Jihad; its purported leader, al-Zarqawi, is a Jordanian-born terrorist linked to al-Qaida. Al-Zarqawi's group claimed responsibility for the videotaped beheading last month of American businessman Nicholas Berg.


An Al-Jazeera staff member at the network headquarters in Qatar, Mohammed al-Saadi, told The Associated Press by telephone that the two-minute videotape was mailed to the Al-Jazeera bureau in Baghdad.


"Our office in Baghdad received an unknown package; they opened it and they found the tape," al-Saadi said.


On Saturday, Seoul warned its people not to travel to Iraq, saying its decision to send troops might prompt terror attacks on South Koreans. The warning came amid news of the beheading of Johnson, although it did not mention the incident.


"At this time, we cannot rule out the possibility of harm to our nationals, following the official announcement of the additional troop dispatch to Iraq," Foreign Ministry spokesman Shin Bong-kil said in a statement.


"The government urges the people to refrain from visiting Iraq," it said.


South Korea plans to send 900 troops to Kurdish-controlled Irbil in early August, followed by about 1,100 troops between late August and early September. An additional 1,000 soldiers will travel to Iraq later.


South Korea already has 600 military medics and engineers in the southern Iraqi city of Nasiriyah.


Seoul has portrayed the dispatch as a way of strengthening its alliance with the United States, thereby winning more support from Washington for a peaceful end to a long-running dispute over North Korea (news - web sites)'s nuclear weapons development.


Johnson, 49, an engineer who had worked in Saudi Arabia for more than a decade, was kidnapped last weekend by militants who followed through on a threat to kill him by Friday if the Saudi kingdom did not release its al-Qaida prisoners.


http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040620/capt.lon81206202102.iraq_korean_hostage_lon812.jpg

[Pooga]

When are we going to play dirty?

Prayers for this guy.
:(

[American Patriot]

I hope the Coalition can find this man.

[seruriermarshal]

Sad , I hope he safe .

:(

God bless him .

[vryhpyammoadded]

When are we going to play dirty?

Prayers for this guy.
:(

All my hopes for him, good luck and god speed his rescuers.

[East]

When are we going to play dirty?

Prayers for this guy.
:(
We cannot play dirty, because to do so would make us no better than them, and by the looks of what happened in the american military prison in Iraq it seems to already have. The people who commited these attrocites disgust me.
I pray for the South Korean mans safety.

[jizzmonkey]

When are we going to play dirty?

Prayers for this guy.
:(
We cannot play dirty, because to do so would make us no better than them, and by the looks of what happened in the american military prison in Iraq it seems to already have. The people who commited these attrocites disgust me.
I pray for the South Korean mans safety.

Stop being so dramatic, you have to break a few eggs to make an omlette.

I'm all for some skull crushing!

so a few insurgents get thier toes ripped off or genitals cut off......I mean really..... who REALLY cares??

and besides....insurgents...liberals, its all the same.


as long as you have your internet connection and starbucks coffee tommorow... give it a week and you'll forget all about it.

cheers.

[American Patriot]

I plead for the S. Koreans to lower the prices of computer memory - it costs too much right now !!

Please, Please, I beg you !

I think you are a POS.

[Tane Angle]

I'm writing this half-rhetorically, and half asking what you guys think: What exactly is it to play dirty? Here's a start:


so a few insurgents get thier toes ripped off or genitals cut off......I mean really..... who REALLY cares??

You think that's playing dirty? Not a chance. You think that's effective or effecient? Not a chance.


and besides....insurgents...liberals, its all the same.
I sincerely hope that that was said sarcastically. According to some on this message board, I'm liberal, so if I am, what are you implying? Personally, I don't like to typify myself, though I'd like to consider myself to be middle of the road. Some of the best servicemembers I've served with have been far more liberal than I. And some of them certainly know what it is to fight dirty.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Vance]

WARNING: Brutal honesty ahead




I think this guy was dead the moment the insurgents captured him. This had nothing to do with withdrawing troops, only with killing.

[seruriermarshal]

WARNING: Brutal honesty ahead




I think this guy was dead the moment the insurgents captured him. This had nothing to do with withdrawing troops, only with killing.

You have more messages ?

[Vance]

WARNING: Brutal honesty ahead




I think this guy was dead the moment the insurgents captured him. This had nothing to do with withdrawing troops, only with killing.

You have more messages ?
What?

[LordHalbert]

They didn't kill the Japanese hostages, so there's a chance.

[Pooga]

Balogne. By playing dirty, I mean getting good intelligence, first of all. Easier said than done, ok fine.

By playing dirty, I mean not taking "crap" going in to places where we think these scum are and blasting the shizat out of them. Also easier said than done. But we musn't wait for things to happen and do nothing when they do. We mustn't make ourselves available to these things, and if they do happen, we have to be ready and already have a plan.

Don't play nice and think that since we are an occupying force, we have to take this. I don't mean making an example. I mean luring them in. Something.

[J-10]

They didn't kill the Japanese hostages, so there's a chance.

I hope so.


South Korea Official Says There Is No Change in Plan to Send Troops to Iraq Despite Kidnapping

The Associated Press

SEOUL, South Korea June 20, 2004 — South Korea's deputy foreign minister said Monday that Seoul will not change its plan to send 3,000 soldiers to Iraq despite the recent kidnapping of a South Korean man there.

Choi Young-jin made the announcement after government officials held an emergency meeting to discuss the abduction that tested South Korea's resolve just days after it announced plans to send 3,000 troops to assist the U.S.-led coalition.

"There is no change in the government's spirit and position that it will send troops to Iraq to help establish peace and rebuild Iraq," Choi said at a news conference.

South Korean Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon said the government will campaign for the hostage's release.

"The government will closely work with the U.S. military command in Iraq and international religious and human rights organizations to get the Korean hostage released as soon as possible," Ban said in Qingdao, China, where he was attending a summit of Asian foreign ministers. He was quoted by Yonhap, South Korea's national news agency.

From (http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040620_1306.html)

[Tane Angle]

Want to fight dirty? We have less than a few hundred people capable of "fighting dirty." Most of them were taken off fighting terrorism to track down people like Hussein. That set them back by a number of months. Now that Hussein is in custody, many are still searching for the rest of his regime. Hussein's security chief is still out there, is he not? Want to fight dirty? We shouldn't have divided our efforts. We did it half-way in two places, instead of all the way against terrorism. That is why I consider President Bush to be weak on terrorism. We can't fight it if we're giving half and AQO and other groups are giving their all.

[German_American]

I just wish we can say **** the middle east and make a parking lot out of the place. Everytime i see one of those videos i feel like goin out and killing hundreds of those bastards. **** them all, I hope they all ****n die slow painful deaths from nuclear radiation. They are a bunch of faciest NAZIs who want death and destruction to all the jews and christains. I dont care what anyone says, its most of those ****ers over there. **** THE MIDDLE EAST!!!!!!!!!!!!(except Israel) :fork:

[Secret Squirrel]

^ :roll: hrm so anyway...I hope this guy makes it out of this ok.

[Flagg]

When are we going to play dirty?


I just wish we can say f*** the middle east and make a parking lot out of the place. Everytime i see one of those videos i feel like goin out and killing hundreds of those bastards. f*** them all, I hope they all f*** die slow painful deaths from nuclear radiation. They are a bunch of faciest NAZIs who want death and destruction to all the jews and christains. I dont care what anyone says, its most of those f*** over there. f*** THE MIDDLE EAST!!!!!!!!!!!!(except Israel)

That is the response I would expect......from non-thinking lemmings

The methodology used by the terrorists kidnapping/videotaping/murdering civilians suggests they are doing it for the following reasons:

A.) Nations will hopefully withdraw regional force commitments to prevent nationals from being targeted by future publicized kidnappings/executions

B.) To incite an excessive response from the victims' nations in the hopes of further escalating the conflict and fracturing support.

C.) The cost/benefit ratio of attacking higher value targets is rising

and/or

D.) All or none of the above

The suggestion that playing "dirty" will "fix" things is ridiculous...........it would simply result in the exact response the enemy are hoping to get...meaning it would be counterproductive....THINK ABOUT IT

[Pooga]

Tane, I don't want to get political, but I'd say Bush is the lesser of two evils (or weevils). We still didn't find al-Dhouri. Granted, lots of things should have been done that weren't, and our choices are to cry about it and keep trugding along, or slap ourselves out of the rut and think on our feet.

Pretty expensive words, I don't know if it can be done.

[Kilgor]

A.) Nations will hopefully withdraw regional force commitments to prevent nationals from being targeted by future publicized kidnappings/executions

B.) To incite an excessive response from the victims' nations in the hopes of further escalating the conflict and fracturing support.

We withdraw, they win
We punish them harder, they win

sounds like a dammed if we do, dammed if we dont to me.

[Pooga]

Flagg, don't let yourself go over the top. Calm down. Goosfrabba.

"Playing dirty" doesn't mean find some random guy, string him up, and suffocate him with toilet paper. It means accomplishing your objective with little to no restraints. Right now we are "playing nice" and trying to accomplish our objectives with one hand tied behind your back. If you're going to fight a war, fight a war. It's not going to be nice even if you try to make it so; you might as well go all out to save lives and time. It won't be pretty, but it never is unless you hash our your countries' differences over the soccer field, and even then someone gets kicked in the happy spot.

[Tane Angle]

I give politicians one term. That's because we haven't invested millions of dollars training them, so they get one term. After one term, if they're failing in terms of terroris, if they're making dumb mistakes that have already been made before and they should have known about, I have no patience left for them. One term. After that, it's: "Next please!"

[Tane Angle]

Want to fight dirty? Ask yourself this:

Could you lie to someone’s face? Could you tell the leader of a neighborhood militia that his sister was raped by the leader of the next neighborhood militia over-knowing that he might very likely kill that woman in an “honor killing”-in order to cause the larger group both neighborhoods belong to to fragment? What if you know that the accused-rapist never did anything of the sort, but is actually a very good man? Could you still throw him and his family away? What if you know that such inter-neighborhood fighting will maim and kill dozens of innocent civilians, including the children who, through no fault of their own, attend school in a building that has been commandeered as a command post by one of the militias?

This is just an example of fighting dirty. Really ask yourself whether or not you could stomach sending good people who deserve only happiness to their torture and deaths. It's not an easy thing to do. No one should ever have to do it. It can mess people up very easily.

This is fighting dirty. It's not about using your bombs. It's about using people. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Pooga]

Sorry, I don't think I understand your situation, so I'm not going to look retarded and answer. Fighting dirty is using everything you've got, including intelligence, intuition, imagination, cleverness and will. That sounds like a load of BS if we were talking about any other thing.

How can you say "Have a good one and just some thoughts" talking about something like this? ;)

[Ratamacue]

Fighting dirty is using everything you've got, including intelligence, intuition, imagination, cleverness and will.
Given that definition, we're fighting dirty right now. But, sorry bud, that's not "fighting dirty."

[Kilgor]

Look at the prisoner abuse scandal.

Rough interrogations for what could be life saving information, which is pretty much commonplace in war, and the media is going hysterical over it.

If fighting dirty means beating the information out of someone, and that information could save lives, could it be justified ?

[jizzmonkey]

I'm writing this half-rhetorically, and half asking what you guys think: What exactly is it to play dirty? Here's a start:


so a few insurgents get thier toes ripped off or genitals cut off......I mean really..... who REALLY cares??

You think that's playing dirty? Not a chance. You think that's effective or effecient? Not a chance.


and besides....insurgents...liberals, its all the same.
I sincerely hope that that was said sarcastically. According to some on this message board, I'm liberal, so if I am, what are you implying? Personally, I don't like to typify myself, though I'd like to consider myself to be middle of the road. Some of the best servicemembers I've served with have been far more liberal than I. And some of them certainly know what it is to fight dirty.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

weeeeeelllll, sarcastic to a point,

I do mean that there are men and women that stand by to do things we might not agree with to ensure that our intrests are taken care of, I am not stupid enough to believe that they dont exsist, I am greatful they are around, I dont really want to know what lengths they go to, I am a realist, I support thier efforts.

thats what I mean

there are no rules in this war.

deal with it or dont and die

it really is that simple.

just a thought ;)

[Tane Angle]

It's just an example of what it really takes to fight dirty. That is the imagination and cleverness right there. That is the ruthlessness, the moral Machiavellianism. That's using everything you've got. Fragmenting insurgent groups, that's necessary often times.

As for the prisoner abuse scandal, that wasn't fighting dirty. Coercion works better than torture. It can be effective, torture doesn't really have the same history of providing valid, actionable, accurate and precise intelligence. Torture results in the prisoner naming any building. Coercion results often enough times in the prisoner name the correct building. In wars, people need to know the right location, not just a location.

Also, the prisoner abuse scandal is about torture and murder, not coercion. Prisoners were murdered. What intelligence were the dead prisoners providing? That's not fighting dirty. That's fighting stupidly. And that hurt us in our attempts to fight dirty; it hurt intelligence gathering in the prisons and outside in the cities.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Kilgor]

Tane, I know what you are saying but why is torture so commonly used for extracting information ?

Im sure many people in ww2 "broke" under totrure too, especially the ruthless methods used by the SS.

[jizzmonkey]

It's just an example of what it really takes to fight dirty. That is the imagination and cleverness right there. That is the ruthlessness, the moral Machiavellianism. That's using everything you've got. Fragmenting insurgent groups, that's necessary often times.

As for the prisoner abuse scandal, that wasn't fighting dirty. Coercion works better than torture. It can be effective, torture doesn't really have the same history of providing valid, actionable, accurate and precise intelligence. Torture results in the prisoner naming any building. Coercion results often enough times in the prisoner name the correct building. In wars, people need to know the right location, not just a location.

Also, the prisoner abuse scandal is about torture and murder, not coercion. Prisoners were murdered. What intelligence were the dead prisoners providing? That's not fighting dirty. That's fighting stupidly. And that hurt us in our attempts to fight dirty; it hurt intelligence gathering in the prisons and outside in the cities.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

o.k there chickeedoo, the prison scandals would have never been a "SCANDAL" had it not been an election year for Hanoi JOHN!!

O.K

Lets get our moderating facts straight!! ;)

[Tane Angle]

There are rules in this war, starting with play by the rules of their culture. When meeting with them, speak in Arabic. Act like one of them. Respect their culture. That is the number one rule.
Respect begets respect, and no one will tell us anything if they don't respect us. Deal with that, or don't and die. Understand one's enemy. Understand the mindset, the logic, the foundation of it.

Simple? The Middle East is not black and white. Little is simple there. Also, a chickendoo? Excuse me?

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[farmgirl]

There are rules in this war, starting with play by the rules of their culture. When meeting with them, speak in Arabic. Act like one of them. Respect their culture. That is the number one rule.
Respect begets respect, and no one will tell us anything if they don't respect us. Deal with that, or don't and die. Understand one's enemy. Understand the mindset, the logic, the foundation of it.

Simple? The Middle East is not black and white. Little is simple there. Also, a chickendoo? Excuse me?

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

Well said as always, Tane.

JM:
You would do well to read what Tane says and realize that he writes what he knows. He isn't making this up as he goes along. He's living it... he's done this for a long time now. He is a wise man. Pay attention and learn from him.

[jizzmonkey]

There are rules in this war, starting with play by the rules of their culture. When meeting with them, speak in Arabic. Act like one of them. Respect their culture. That is the number one rule.
Respect begets respect, and no one will tell us anything if they don't respect us. Deal with that, or don't and die. Understand one's enemy. Understand the mindset, the logic, the foundation of it.

Simple? The Middle East is not black and white. Little is simple there. Also, a chickendoo? Excuse me?

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...
no, there are no rules, ..... hello.... its pretty cut, and its chickeeedoo, not chickendoo.

just some more thoughts.

[jizzmonkey]

ooohhhh, damn mahooes!

tricked again!!

[jizzmonkey]

the Adam's apple, dammit!!!
I should have known!!
son of a whore!

[Kilgor]

Act like one of them. Respect their culture. That is the number one rule. "

even if they have no respect for you ?

This is the problem I have and many others.

Iraqi's put up for sadam for 32 years or so, but even only a year after being liberated by the americans they seem to want to **** on them at every chance they get.

[Secret Squirrel]

Tane, I know what you are saying but why is torture so commonly used for extracting information ?

Im sure many people in ww2 "broke" under totrure too, especially the ruthless methods used by the SS.

Post some facts to back up your torture conclusions. Because theres a lot of historical research surrounding the failure of torture to gain important and useful intel.

[Flagg]

We withdraw, they win
We punish them harder, they win

sounds like a dammed if we do, dammed if we dont to me.

We're damned if we respond as inappropriately suggested earlier in this thread........


Best bit of advice I can give anyone regarding this thread is to read, then RE-read Tane Angle posts...it pretty much sums it up...considering he knows first hand.....unlike most here

[East]

theres a difference between fighting dirty and torturing a pow. i'm all game for fu*kin up terrorists, do what is neccessary. i just don't beleive its right to torturing pow's.

[farmgirl]

We withdraw, they win
We punish them harder, they win

sounds like a dammed if we do, dammed if we dont to me.

We're damned if we respond as inappropriately suggested earlier in this thread........


Best bit of advice I can give anyone regarding this thread is to read, then RE-read Tane Angle posts...it pretty much sums it up...considering he knows first hand.....unlike most here


Amen... and again I say... Amen!!!

[Tane Angle]

:oops: Thank you kindly.

[Ratamacue]

Act like one of them. Respect their culture. That is the number one rule. "

even if they have no respect for you ?
I've said it before, I'll say it again: just because they are evil/savage/whatever doesn't mean you can't strive to be better than them. The point of the war at this point isn't to use whatever tactics are necessary to CRUSH the insurgent threat, but to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people so that the insurgent threat loses support. People seem to forget that we're here to instill democracy and a sense of morality into this country. These people may be terrorists, but if we show them that we're not the great evil we're portrayed to be, maybe they'll realize that we aren't just that. Not that I'm really expecting to change your mind, it seems like you've already made your opinion and carved it into stone.

[farmgirl]

:oops: Thank you kindly.


:hug: There are those of us around here who know that you are worth listening to, Tane. I, for one, will make sure others know that they should do the same. It's just another service I provide. :D

[Hullebullen]

I just want to say that seeing the korean guy plead for his life were among the more disturbing things I have seen. I hope that he will somehow make it out of this but I kind of doubt it. Poor bastard...

[Fox2]

As for the prisoner abuse scandal, that wasn't fighting dirty. Coercion works better than torture. It can be effective, torture doesn't really have the same history of providing valid, actionable, accurate and precise intelligence. Torture results in the prisoner naming any building. Coercion results often enough times in the prisoner name the correct building. In wars, people need to know the right location, not just a location.

Is a naked human pyramid classified as torture or coercion? The other stuff, such as the electrocution, beating to death, that is a big no-no. But I have no problem with things like the humiliation tactics if it can get us life-saving information. I see tactics such as the naked pyramid as coercion rather than torture, but perhaps some disagree with me in that respect?

My prayers are with this South Korean and all the other hostages still not home.

[5jumpchump]

It seems that making man pyramids and FAKING electricution and stress positions is wrong , gets more people mad at us and more media attention then the friggin OJ trial . Perhaps we should cut heads off and post it on the internet . This way it will only be covered for a day or two and then never talked about again :roll:

[Pooga]

Ok, everybody here needs to caaaalm down. Nobody is assaulting anybody or questioning one's judgement (except the people who have openly done so). It's a discussion. If I wanted a one-sided bedtime story I would have asked Rip van Winkel. :hug:

Perhaps fighting dirty was the wrong phrase. Heh.

There were many things that should have been done to give us something to fallback on or even be able to move on our toes to adapt without the danger of tripping. But we had to move in before the summer sandstorms so the ground contingent could "blitzkrieg" during "Shock and Awe." Would it have been better to wait one more year? Keep in mind the Iraqis would've gotten more GPS-jamming devices (which we did workaround) and other trinkets. And maybe that oil-filled trench would've gone up (pretty lame sounding idea though).

[Tane Angle]

Perhaps we should never have invaded. It might have been a good cause, but sometimes the real world requires people to make unsatisfying, tough calls. As important as freeing Iraqis is, protecting American citizens lives is more important. We can't do everything. It'd be nice if we could, but we can't.

And assuming that there was not war on terror and all our resources were going to a war in Iraq, we would still need at least five to ten years to prepare adequately. We would need basic Arabic, historical, and cultural training for everyone, and a military two to four times the size of ours now, for starters.

Maybe we shoulve have narrowed our operations in Iraq down to hitting the AI camps, but who knows?

Reread the first paragraph in this post. Take that feeling that you probably get when you think about the idea of not being able to help eeveryone. Maybe then you'll have a glimpse of what it feels like to fight dirty. So please, don't just go "we need to fight dirty! Let's bomb the *whatever* out of their cities!" It's not about bigger guns, it's about smoother talkers using people.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Vance]

Let's not live in the past, Tane. Let's live now, shall we? Maybe this, maybe that. It doesn't matter. We're in the **** NOW. We have to find a good way out, which might require us to get a little dirty.

[Tane Angle]

I agree, my friend. That's why I am so frustrated by the Bush Administration, but don't excuse Bush's mistakes by bringing up Clinton. I didn't like Clinton when he was in, but he's not in any more.

Today, our needs from before the war persist. We still need to be training more people-average soldiers, not just specialists-in language and cultural skills. We can't "win the peace" if we don't. That's a decent part of how we get out, by building ******* with the Iraqi people, and using that ******* to gain actionable intelligence that allows forces to go after the anti-coalition groups.

That's why I'm such a pisser when it comes to basic language and cultural training. Actional intelligence is the only way things get done. Maybe someone is going to tell the US troops in his town that he heard there is a foreigner being held hostage in X building in his neighborhood. Then he hears that US troops damaged the Ali Shrine in Najaf, so he says "screw 'em if they can't respect my culture." Then we our chance to get that hostage out. When we insult their culture, I don't just see an insulted Muslim, I see a hostage who might have been rescued who now might not be. If we can be a bit more respectful and improve our *******, then maybe we can get a bit more good information, and bring a few more hostages-and servicemembers on the streets-home safe and sound.

The lack of cultural training results in incidents where troops fire unnecessarily at shrines sacred to the Shiites, angering people who beforehand had liked the coalition. The troops should have known to pull back instead of returning fire with anything other than snipers. From what I've seen, through no fault of their own, many personnel do not know the ramifications of hitting certain mosques, be it intentionally or accidentally.

The lack of even basic language training results in incidents like the accidental civilian deaths at checkpoint. The troops make the right call in firing, because they don't know that the vehicle has a family and not a bomb in in. But everyone at checkpoints should be able to say "stop the car, we won't hurt you" in understandable Arabic. How dare we put soldiers in a position where they have to unknowingly kill civilians because we didn't teach those soldiers a few basic phrases of Arabic.

One wouldn't send someone with the potential to be a good doctor to perform surgery, would they? The doctor needs proper training before he or she can be expected to perform surgery. It was a bit naive for the administration to expect the soldiers to perform tasks-like communcating with locals-if no one taught them. Moreover, a doctor can't perform surgery without a scalpel, clamps, and many other tools, correct? Putting Strykers on the ground without RPG-cages waiting for them was like telling a doctor to perform brain surgery with a pen knife.

In some respects, we are improving. For example, putting those RPG cages on vehicles is progress. Of course, those cages should have been ready and waiting, considering that the Russians knew to use them years ago. We should have learned from our own prior mistakes, as well as others'. But we are making improvements. There are still more to go, I hate to say it.

By the way, I'm not saying that fighting dirty is the incorret course of action. Is it often wrong? Yes, in some respects. But somethings are wrong on the personal level but still right on the strategic level. I'm just saying that fighting dirty isn't necessarily synonomous with the application of massive amounts of firepower.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Tane should write a book. Good read. woot

[Tane Angle]

:oops: Thanks bud. Funny you mention that, the outfit shrink thinks I should too, says it might help with things. Orders are orders, so I've written about 3 pages over the past few months. p-)

By the way, Vance, thanks for letting me have it. I respect that. ;)

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[usa320]

Saying that not invading Iraq would have saved American lives is true to some degree...but not to the degree in the context tane uses it in.

Basically to not invade Iraq would have put FAR MORE lives at risk in the long term, big picture.

We couldnt wait for a "smoking gun", as it would come as a cloud of VX or a mushroom cloud.

[Tane Angle]

I'm not saying Iraq wasn't a good cause, but we need to finish the already started jobs, and secure against the immediate threats, before we think long-term.

[Maverick77]

youll see this guys ****in head show up on the internet tommorow or something

Falluja needs to be attacked because its just a terrorist stronghold now


if it is just left this **** will happen in increasing numbers

[Secret Squirrel]

Saying that not invading Iraq would have saved American lives is true to some degree...but not to the degree in the context tane uses it in.

Basically to not invade Iraq would have put FAR MORE lives at risk in the long term, big picture.

We couldnt wait for a "smoking gun", as it would come as a cloud of VX or a mushroom cloud.

^ Another victim of Bush's paranoia strikes again!

[One?]

Tane should write a book. Good read. woot

I second that. Tane you're my idol :P

usa320 come out of the box already...

[farmgirl]

Tane should write a book. Good read. woot

I second that. Tane you're my idol :Pusa320 come out of the box already...


get in line, baby.... I'm president of the TA fan club ;)

[Ratamacue]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: vote Tane Angle in '08.

[farmgirl]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: vote Tane Angle in '08.



He's got my vote. Who will the VP be??? ;)

[Tane Angle]

:oops: Thanks again. Jeez, way embarrass me. p-)

By the way, Rat, is there an age minimum for Vice-President? Anything on your schedule for 2008-2012? p-)

[Ratamacue]

:oops: Thanks again. Jeez, way embarrass me. p-)

By the way, Rat, is there an age minimum for Vice-President? Anything on your schedule for 2008-2012? p-)

Can't help ya there man. If I remember anything from 7th grade, you have to be 35 to VP, and besides, I should be in the middle of my first term of service by then. ;) I say that Beo should be your running mate.

[farmgirl]

:oops: Thanks again. Jeez, way embarrass me. p-)

By the way, Rat, is there an age minimum for Vice-President? Anything on your schedule for 2008-2012? p-)


well... tane... thanks a lot!!! ;)
I would assume that the VP has to meet the requirements of being president, so the age minimum would be 35.. no? I guess that leaves me out too... ;)

[ZeroPositive]

excellent posts TA
:(
Still back to the poor Korean, I feel awefully sad about the bugger....

[Tane Angle]

Thanks ZeroPositive, let's get back on track. And yes, that leaves you out, farmgirl. p-)

[Pooga]

Tane, I like the way you are reasonable. Most people if they don't agree with you, try to shout you down and post innumerable ".org" links that are mostly associated with weed-smoking, Bush-obsessed, Green Party crazy people. I don't see one link that you posted. Remember, though, that there's at least one good thing that resulted/is resulting from Iraq: Al-Qaeda is in there now, and we are fighting them.

I see you have quite a following around these here parts of town, thus I don't think I'm going to effectively get much of my voice out there and I will end up talking to myself like a crazy man does walking down a crowded street. I'm going to go in a corner and cry about it. ;)

There are some things that you said that I don't quite agree with, and I don't think we're on the same page in talking about "fighting dirty." I didn't mean "OMG LEZ GO BOBM THIER CITAYS AND NUEK TEH,M.!!!11" Dangit, I don't know what I meant anymore. You guys are playing with my mind! Anyhoo it was good debatin', even though I couldn't get my stance across properly.

woot
Happy green smiley faces dancing up and down. Yes. Good times.




I hope they somehow, by some miracle, get some special forces guys to the Korean man's location and get him out alive. Miracles do happen, eh?
:(

[Tane Angle]

Thanks bud, and same to you. They're not actually a following. Actually, some of the most interesting people to talk to on here have very different opinions from me. It keeps things interesting, so long as everyone is respectful in their disagreeing.


I hope they somehow, by some miracle, get some special forces guys to the Korean man's location and get him out alive. Miracles do happen, eh?

We can only hope. :|

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[MEGR]

It's tues over here on the Eastern coast of the US, prob morning in IRaq. Anyone have updates?

[Vance]

Hey Tane, I would help you out by I'll still be in the military in '08. :( Oh well, maybe '12. If you're still here. ;)

[J-10]

Report: South Korean hostage in Iraq still alive
MSNBC staff and news service reports
Updated: 5:36 a.m. ET June 22, 2004SEOUL, South Korea - An abducted South Korean in Iraq was alive Tuesday, a day after a deadline for his execution had expired, South Korea's Yonhap news agency reported.

Choi Sung-gab, head of the South Korean security firm NKTS, told Yonhap his Iraqi business partner contacted the abductee's kidnappers and confirmed that he was still safe and alive.

Choi's business partner first met the kidnappers on Monday to try negotiating his release. It was unclear whether the partner saw the captive South Korean or not. Choi spoke to Yonhap from South Korea.

Kim Sun-il, 33, was working for a firm supplying the U.S. military in Iraq when he was abducted last Thursday.

His captors, purportedly al-Qaida-linked militants, said they would kill him if the South Korean government did not decide by sunset Monday Iraqi time to cancel its deployment of troops to Iraq.

The deadline passed with Seoul sticking to its planned dispatch of 3,000 soldiers, rejecting demands the kidnappers aired in a videotape in which the man made an anguished plea for his life. There was no official word on Kim's fate, and the government said late Tuesday afternoon it had no decisive evidence as to whether he was alive.

NKTS, or New Korea Total Service, is a private South Korean security company that was established in 2003. It says its staff consist of former members of elite Korean military units, and that they have been operating in the Middle East since December.

The South Korean ambassador to Iraq, Lim Hong-jae, was in negotiations with the kidnappers, the Seoul newspaper Chosun Ilbo reported Tuesday morning. The U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority, the Iraqi Foreign Ministry and the main Iraqi religious council were also taking part.

Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon, who was in China to attend the Asian Cooperation Dialogue, spoke with U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell by telephone, Chosun Ilbo reported.

“We view, obviously, as a very high priority any hostage taken, any civilian hostage, any military hostage taken,” said Dan Senor, a spokesman for the coalition in Baghdad. “And we have made clear that this is tragic, and we will put all the necessary resources, both military and intelligence resources, behind the safe rescue of any hostage, including this gentleman from Korea.”

From (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5256382/)

[Scottie]

I dont beleive in miracles, nor that a god can save him, it is human will that changes everything. None of that Inshallah (Gods will) stuff....We prey and prey, but nothing ever happens.... :( I still beleive in God, but not in the way he can change human will... :(

Hopefully som special forces or agreement will fix everything up...

BTW, its about time the coalition demanded stuff, like we'll abuse saddam unless u surrender or something like that ;)

[SpikeATGM]

Feel damn sad seeing the footage. Hope he will be released soon.

[Argyll]

:oops: Thanks bud. Funny you mention that, the outfit shrink thinks I should too, says it might help with things. Orders are orders, so I've written about 3 pages over the past few months. p-)

By the way, Vance, thanks for letting me have it. I respect that. ;)

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

3 pages?....................what a slacker! ;)

Tane as always provides thought provoing responses,but typically those who have no idea as to his background,and recent locations are critical,they live in the "Holywood" world,out here in the Badlands it's a very different ball game.

The Japanese hostages were held by a different group altogether,this Korean,is also with a different faction......and personaly I fear the worst,he will become another statistic in the war against AQ types,I hope I'm wrong.....for his and his family's sake.

on a slight off topic note,Baghdad has become eerily quiet over the last few days.......the tension is tighter than a ducks ass......

[J-10]

MSNBC staff and news service reports
Updated: 6:29 a.m. ET June 22, 2004SEOUL, South Korea -
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040621/040621_korean_hostage_hmed_4a.hmedium.jpg
South Koreans in Seoul watch a news broadcast on the abduction of Kim Sun-il.

Militants holding a South Korean hostage in Iraq have agreed to give more time for talks on his fate, an Iraqi mediator told ******* on Tuesday.

From (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5256382/)

[Pacey]

Just came through breaking news on Al Jazeera...

He has been killed...

RIP

[Praetorian 05]

Until we retaliate in a manner fitting these acts, they will continue. Gen. Pershing had a very efficient, and cost effective solution to thwart Muslim terrorists.
When you deny a Holy Warrior of his chance to see Allah; it tends to make them less concerned about Martyrdom.

[NcDeuce]

Until we retaliate in a manner fitting these acts, they will continue. Gen. Pershing had a very efficient, and cost effective solution to thwart Muslim terrorists.
When you deny a Holy Warrior of his chance to see Allah; it tends to make them less concerned about Martyrdom.

The same Pershing that was the commander of the American Expeditionary Forces in World War I??