Red Storm rising-the future of Russia

[duck]

"Russia Sees an AIDS 'Explosion'
Government Slow to React To Five Years of Warnings
By Peter Baker
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, June 13, 2004; Page A01


IRKUTSK, Russia -- Andrei Artyomenko can pinpoint the day he believes he became infected. He was 21 years old, a product of a broken family, a school dropout, a junkie living in this Siberian city. By his own account, he looked awful, wearing dirty clothes and weighing just 128 pounds. His mother wouldn't let him come home because he kept stealing from her to pay for his habit.



One day he and a friend retreated into the darkened stairwell of a nine-story apartment building where no one would bother them. "He had just one syringe," Artyomenko recalled. "He warned me. He said, 'I'm not sure, but I think I got bombed,' " meaning infected. But the warning went unheeded.

"All I could think about was the needle," Artyomenko said. "I had to have it."

That spring of 1999 would introduce HIV not only into his own veins but into the Russian national bloodstream as well. It was the spring of "the explosion," as it is called here, the spring this remote Siberian outpost suddenly was no longer so cut off from the rest of the world.

As Afghan liquid heroin arrived, so did AIDS. When a student from a technical school tested positive for HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, panicked local officials began checking his classmates and discovered a hidden epidemic that was just beginning to break out in other cities and would transform Russia.

In the five years since, the country's leadership has done little to stop the infection as it has raced across the country. While international organizations are now rushing to offer assistance and holding back-to-back conferences on how to address the problem, President Vladimir Putin has mentioned AIDS only once in a major speech to the Russian people and then only in a fragment of one sentence. There was no reference to AIDS in his state of the nation address last month.

Russia once was largely free of a disease ravaging the United States, Europe and Africa, but the rate of infection in recent years has been growing faster here than anywhere else in the world, according to the United Nations and other international organizations.

A country that had just a few thousand HIV-positive people before 1999 now has more than 280,000 officially registered cases, and U.N. and Russian experts estimate that 1 million Russians actually have the virus -- more than in the United States, which has twice the population and a much longer history of the disease. Proportionately, the virus has infected six times as many people in Russia as in China, according to current statistics.

Now the infection has broken out of Russia's drug-using community into a society with hidden ****** promiscuity that no one likes to talk about. And with the state still not providing antiretroviral treatment to people like Andrei Artyomenko, the first generation of people infected will soon start dying off in large numbers.

The death toll remains small by the standards of sub-Saharan Africa, where close to 20 million people have succumbed to AIDS. But by 2010, under the most optimistic World Bank forecast, 250,000 Russians will be dying as a result of AIDS each year; under the most pessimistic scenario, the annual toll will reach 650,000, more than all those who have died with AIDS in the United States since 1981.

In Russia, AIDS is striking the world's only major nation where the population is already falling so drastically. Even before AIDS became a factor, the death rate in Russia had soared far beyond the birth rate, reducing the population faster than in any other major industrialized nation in the world. For every 100 babies born in Russia today, 173 people die. The population has already fallen by 5 million since the collapse of the Soviet Union 13 years ago, to 145 million, and government forecasts say it will fall to 102 million or, in the worst case, 77 million by 2050, without accounting for AIDS.

The reasons are myriad. Russians drink more, smoke more and commit suicide more often than practically any other people on earth. They suffer from some of the world's highest rates of heart disease, accidental death, tuberculosis, hepatitis and syphilis. The average lifespan for a Russian man recently fell to 59, below that in Bangladesh, Guatemala or Bosnia.

The advent of AIDS in such an environment threatens to swamp a health system that is already in crisis and, according to some experts, poses a long-term threat to Russia as a nation. The people the disease will afflict will be predominantly young men and women in their child-bearing years, the backbone of a dwindling labor force and the hope for replenishing the population.

"The totality of all this is . . . potentially devastating for the society, economy and social stability," said Murray Feshbach, a specialist at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington. Or as Steven L. Solnick, director of the Moscow office of the Ford Foundation, put it, "If you don't stop it now, it'll destroy the country." ..."

[duck]

Crisis Goes Ignored

As the disease spreads, the Health Ministry is fighting it with just five people closeted in a series of narrow offices in a satellite building far from the center of Moscow. The federal government spends not quite $1 million a year on prevention. Barely 2,000 Russians are receiving antiretroviral medication, and many of those get something less than the full treatment known as a triple cocktail.



"There's a lot of concern about the situation in Russia voiced abroad," Vadim Pokrovsky, director of Russia's Federal Center for AIDS Prevention and Treatment, told reporters last fall. "The concern is much greater than that expressed by our own public and our own government."

The Russian government at first turned down international aid, portraying itself as a donor nation to the Global Fund for AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria, so the fund awarded $88 million to a consortium of private groups in a rare bypassing of the host government. That leaves the fight in part in the hands of foreign groups such as the Ford Foundation, the International Committee of the Red Cross, UNAIDS and billionaire financier George Soros's International Harm Reduction Development Program.

"Russia should be one of the success stories because you have universal literacy, because you have a pharmaceutical industry, because you have a television in every home," Solnick said. "There's no reason millions of Russians should die of this disease. And yet it looks extremely likely that millions of Russians will die of this disease."

The reason why can be found in the story of the last five years in Irkutsk.

'Lost Souls Like Me'

A gritty industrial city with snow on the ground and a river frozen as late as May each year, Irkutsk sits on the crossroads between Europe and Asia. Founded in 1661 as a czarist fort on the Angara River, Irkutsk grew into one of the capitals of Siberia, a center of trade, culture and travel, a "thoroughly refined" town, as the playwright Anton Chekhov put it.

Now home to nearly 600,000 people, Irkutsk remains a traditional, unpretentious place where old houses are made of wood, the bars have names like Good Beer and religious icons are sold at sidewalk kiosks.

After the Soviet Union collapsed and Russia opened up, new things arrived in Irkutsk -- including drugs from Central Asia. At first, youngsters experimented with opium that they cooked over stoves and called chernyashka, or black stuff, but in early 1999 liquid heroin arrived in vials, making needle-sharing the new fad.

For many young people, the drugs were a way of dealing with the bewildering changes around them. "I felt myself useless, absolutely useless," recalled Artyomenko, the young man who shared a needle in a stairwell. He was estranged from his violent stepfather. "I needed to share my feelings with somebody, but I couldn't handle what they were telling me," he said. By the time he enrolled at a technical college at 17, he had found chernyashka and the transactional friends who came with it. "I understand they were just lost souls like me," he said. Then came liquid heroin. "AIDS," he said, "came with it."

The American movie "Pulp Fiction" became a cult favorite with some young people here in those days. They idealized its dark mixture of violence and drugs. "I was bringing it to life," recalled Yevgeny Sherbakov, now 21. "I considered myself cool. Later on, when I started selling my clothes off my body, I realized it wasn't fun at all."

The discovery of AIDS at the technical school exposed the consequences for all to see. "The school was just a symptom, the first sign that the infection had crawled into Irkutsk," said Alexei Trutnev, who tested positive in 1999 at age 25.

Trutnev was only the 130th person confirmed with HIV in Irkutsk. Today there are about 17,000 officially registered and probably three or four times that in reality, making Irkutsk proportionately the most infected region in the country.

"As in other parts of Russia, authorities in Irkutsk refused to confront the problem at first. The governor and other officials rebuffed activists who demanded action. "We started ringing all the bells that the epidemic had arrived," Igor Vankon, founder of a local drug rehabilitation clinic, recalled. But when activists went to see a top medical official in 2000, "she just opened her arms and said, 'Sorry, we're not doing anything but diagnosis.' When they offered her a harm reduction [prevention] program, she said, 'No, we don't need it.' "

Vankon later tried to start a program aimed at preventing AIDS from spreading among young women. "When I raised the issue," he recalled, "our authorities said, 'There aren't enough syringes for children and you want to give them to prostitutes and drug addicts?' " ..."

[duck]

"Many in Irkutsk thought that the problem was isolated in the drug community and would simply die off with the addicts. "People were stunned and frightened," recalled Artyomenko, whose family made him use separate cups and plates out of fear of infection. "The tension between sick people and drug addicts and the rest of society really escalated."



Battle for Recognition

Eventually the government opened an AIDS center in an unmarked building on a hill far outside the center of town and well out of public view. In 2002, the first needle exchange program began. Last year, the Red Cross opened its own AIDS center on Lenin Avenue in the middle of town with American financing.

But it remains a battle. In April, the local drug enforcement agency sent a letter to the Red Cross ordering it to halt needle exchanges on the ground that they represented "open propaganda of drugs."

The letter came just as the Kremlin was rewriting Russia's drug laws to decriminalize possession of small amounts of drugs, a move activists say will encourage users to get treatment or at least clean syringes. Yet Irkutsk's experience shows how even policy changes at the national level often are not translated to the local level.

"It's scary," said Tanya Yevlampieva, who works at the Red Cross center. "I'm scared mostly by the attitude people have toward it. I don't think anything will change until people start dying" in large numbers.

Little is being done to head that off. Other than pregnant women in the final weeks before childbirth, only three adults and 16 children are receiving antiretroviral treatment in the Irkutsk region. With the triple cocktail still costing between $6,000 and $12,000 a year per person, regional governments can ill afford it even as a growing wave of people will need it in the next two years.

Boris Tsvetkov, director of Irkutsk's AIDS center, maintained that everyone who needs it is getting it now but predicted a real challenge in the immediate future. "The more time passes since the beginning of the disease, the more people are going to need treatment," he said. "It's going to be very big money."

One of the few getting it now is Nastia Cherkashena, a blond 4-year-old in a red dress and pink bow who lives with 47 other abandoned HIV-infected children in a special clinic opened in 2002. Curious when strangers visit, Nastia says little, her eyes heavy with fatigue.

A couple of rooms down at the clinic is Edik Zolotavin, who just turned 8 and stares without comprehension from his bed. Rosa Varnakova, head of the children's AIDS clinic, pulled back his blanket to reveal an emaciated body seeming to belong to a child half his age. His arms and legs were sticks. He is the oldest boy in the clinic, with heart and kidneys so badly damaged that his caretakers do not expect him to live long.

"I think God needs to decide," Varnakova said.

Varnakova and the hospital's chief doctor, Lydia Gubanova, have done what they can to brighten a cold existence for these children, decorating the walls with cartoons, gathering toys and setting up classes for them. "They have everything," Gubanova said. "But they don't have mothers and fathers."

And this is only the beginning. While ****** transmission accounted for fewer than 1 percent of HIV cases in Irkutsk at first, today it represents 30 percent. "Right now, psychologically, we're getting prepared for the moment when something bigger will have to be established," Varnakova said. "We'll come to that point."

'We Do All We Can'

No one knows that better than Alexander Goliusov, who heads the AIDS section at the Health Ministry in Moscow. It falls to him to explain Russia's response to the disease.

Russia's problems with AIDS, and its failure to act, he said, have been exaggerated. While little is spent on prevention, he said that all federal and regional spending on AIDS treatment adds up to nearly $45 million a year, and he noted that Russia the donor nation has now swallowed its pride and applied for $213 million from the global AIDS fund.

"We can talk about whether we do things right or wrong, but we do all we can," Goliusov said. "Of course I'm not saying that things are perfect here and that everything is good and great. But I'm so tired of all the hysteria about Russia."

Still, after venting that frustration, his tone turned dire as he acknowledged that Russia faces a "huge problem" that requires more funding. Within three years, tens of thousands of people will be dying each year and he complains that Russia's pharmaceutical industry isn't rising to the challenge because "in their eyes, it's not worth it."

He sighed as he considered the looming disaster.

"It's breathing down our neck," he said.

"Death's breath," his assistant added."

[East]

It's horrifying how badly aids its spreading throughout the world.

[GazB]

Within three years, tens of thousands of people will be dying each year and he complains that Russia's pharmaceutical industry isn't rising to the challenge because "in their eyes, it's not worth it."

How can Russia's pharmaceutical industry rise to the challange? Violate international patent law and make illegal anti aids drugs that Russians can actually afford?

Shame that while the west has billions to invest in oil pipelines they don't have any money to help the Russians in other ways except those that suit them, like decomissioning WMDs.

[Kilgor]

yeah.. its amazing how the west is supposted to be your friend when you expect them to be :|

[GazB]

When the Russians eventually recover economically I am sure they will remember that Germany and Japan were treated much better than they were after they lost. Most of the victims of Communism were from the communist countries themselves... whereas Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan shared their pain with the world. It is amusing that the west acts like it was the victim of communism.

Ten years after the fall of the wall and Russia is still struggling with the basics of becoming a democracy and Communist China has most favoured trading nation status... go figure...

[Kilgor]

I think your forgetting alot of russia's pain came from the curruption and the absurdly cheap prices that state run institutions that were sold off to the right people.

Do you honestly think the west owes russia a restoration job like germany and japan ?

[GazB]

Do you honestly think the west owes russia a restoration job like germany and japan ?

The west owes nobody nothing, but considering it seems to want cooperation from the Russians on quite a few areas, not to mention it not being in anyones interests to have WMDs all over the place you'd think they'd sink a bit more money into the country.

Most of the corruption was created during the immediate post cold war period when the Russians seemed to assume that the west would be nice and friendly. The reality was that thanks to the need to immediately democratise everything it was only those who were already rich and powerful that had the position and money to buy anything. The result is that a lot of sharks in the west and mostly ex communists in the east made a quick killing for a short time. The result is rather worse than it would have been if communism had continued. I am sure those who benefited from democracy loved it but the majority are no better off and are probably wondering what happened to the promise of a land of milk and honey when democracy arrived.

[oldsoak]

A helping hand now would pay dividends later.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Within three years, tens of thousands of people will be dying each year and he complains that Russia's pharmaceutical industry isn't rising to the challenge because "in their eyes, it's not worth it."

How can Russia's pharmaceutical industry rise to the challange? Violate international patent law and make illegal anti aids drugs that Russians can actually afford?

Shame that while the west has billions to invest in oil pipelines they don't have any money to help the Russians in other ways except those that suit them, like decomissioning WMDs.
Its an internal problem, not the responsibility of the West.

[oldsoak]

Within three years, tens of thousands of people will be dying each year and he complains that Russia's pharmaceutical industry isn't rising to the challenge because "in their eyes, it's not worth it."

How can Russia's pharmaceutical industry rise to the challange? Violate international patent law and make illegal anti aids drugs that Russians can actually afford?

Shame that while the west has billions to invest in oil pipelines they don't have any money to help the Russians in other ways except those that suit them, like decomissioning WMDs.
Its an internal problem, not the responsibility of the West.

Not our responsibility maybe, but still think it would be a good thing to do. One can always help them help them help themselves. Do them a favour now and they might want to do the same for us someday. You never know whats around the corner.

[SerbPVO]

Do you guys not know that Russia has more scientists than USA?

If anyone can devise a cure against AIDS, its the Russkies.
Now, they simply have a reason to do it.

[Kilgor]

The most brilliant minds all over the world have been looking into AIDs for decades now. Russia has got as much chance as everyone else to try and find a cure, which at the moment is slim.

[Kitsune]

When the Russians eventually recover economically I am sure they will remember that Germany and Japan were treated much better than they were after they lost. Most of the victims of Communism were from the communist countries themselves... whereas Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan shared their pain with the world. It is amusing that the west acts like it was the victim of communism.



Sorry Gazb, that is an idiotic statement. Germany was occupied, humiliated, divided for decades . Families were ripped apart. 14 million Germans were expelled from there homes (which they lost forever), 2 million of them died. Hundreds of thousands of Germans died in Soviet captivity even years after WWII ended, 15.000 died when the French used them to clear mines (which is explicitely forbidden by the Genevan convention), many others lost 10, 15 or 20 years of their lives because the Soviets would not let them return home. People starved. Lived in ruins. "Better treated than the Russians", my arse. Sometimes your funny fascination for anything Russian, simply gets you carried away.

The Russians were not "treated badly" by the West. They used the help of American managers to instant-liberalize their economy ("emulate the Americans and you will be prosperous in 5 minutes") and this strategy failed badly. The result was an economic reduction of the Russian economy by 60 %. On the other hand there is not so much experience with these matters, superpowers do not collapse all the time, so this critique may be a case of "hindsight is always 20/20". Anyway.

With Germany it was different, but Germany is a nation with a history of nearly consistent economic success and technical excellence since its foundation...Russia is not. So an economic miracle German style, was a bit optimistic an exspectation. Even with the equivalent of the Marshall plan (Come on...that was 17 billion dollars within 4 years :roll:, not THAT much. Correct for inflation over the decades and pay the Russians 170 billion...no lets be generous...350 billion bucks. And what would happen is: The money vanishes into a big black hole. Gone for good).

But the good news is: Russia IS recovering. Of course this AIDS thing is an horrible problem, that has to be solved. But it is for the RUSSIAN government to do this, not for the militaryphotos forum! Putin is the one who should have posted this article, not duck! If the enormity of the problem is shown to the world, the west will help, I am sure of that. Money will be collected, care packets send. And about the AIDS patents we can talk and I am sure that a solution can be found.
But if thats too undignified for the Russian government, well...what are we exspected to do? To crawl to their doorstep and beg to let us help them? We Westerners are nice people...but not THAT nice.

[Ratamacue]

I think you have, at most, about 24 hours before you get banned.

[joeyblong]

censor people who disagree with you.

In Jesus' Glorious and Holy name,
Dean Berry
REAL American

[Ratamacue]

No, we censor people who post solely for inflammatory reasons.

[Fintin]

so...rat...you having fun yet with this guy....

[joeyblong]

The Iraq War is a good example. The amerinazis outnumber the Iraqis by how much, 100 to 1?

[GazB]

Its an internal problem, not the responsibility of the West.

Yet the West brings up at every opportunity other internal problems like Chechnia.


Germany was occupied, humiliated, divided fo centuries.

I think you mean decades.

And the damage done to Germany was a direct reflection of damage done initiated by a few Germans but implimented by the rest of them on the Soviet Union and many other countries.


Families were ripped apart. 14 million Germans were expelled from there homes (which they lost forever), 2 million of them died.

Soviet Families, Jewish families, Slavic families, Gypsie Families and many other families were torn apart, 25 million Soviets alone lost their lives, entire cities raised to the ground by german bombers.


Hundreds of thousands of Germans died in Soviet captivity even years after WWII ended,

Of the approximately 6 million Soviet military prisoners of war taken by the Germans less than 1.5 million survived... the rest were worked to death.


"Better treated than the Russians", my arse. Sometimes your funny fascination for anything Russian, simply gets you carried away.


Perhaps you poor comprehension of English is your problem. I was talking of the Wests rebuilding of Germany and Japan compared to the West largely ignoring the Soviets now. One situation where the former enemies were rebuilt to become serious economic powers (West Germany and Japan) and the other is the current situation with the former SU republics that get investment in oil reserves but little else except loans.


And what would happen is: The money vanishes into a big black hole. Gone for good).


It would now that the wrong people have power in all the places that matter.


We Westerners are nice people...but not THAT nice.

Whether Westerners are nice or not is irrelevant. Most of the so called help and advice given to the Russians has hurt them more than it has helped them.


The Russians were not "treated badly" by the West. They used the help of American managers to instant-liberalize their economy ("emulate the Americans and you will be prosperous in 5 minutes") and this strategy failed badly. The result was an economic reduction of the Russian economy by 60 %. On the other hand there is not so much experience with these matters, superpowers do not collapse all the time, so this critique may be a case of "hindsight is always 20/20".

Ummm, they followed the advice of the Americans and now most of their military industrial complex has Boeing as a stakeholder. If they didn't insist on rules limiting foreign ownership the next new Boeing might have been made in a Moscow factory.

[Kilgor]

You definately cant compare the rebuilding of germany and japan after the wars.

They were both countries devestated by war and suffered massive loss, while communism just collapsed economically (and lets face it.. it never worked)

And japan and germany had unconditional surrender terms.
Could you imagine russia disbanding there military and letting outside powers run its government ??! Thats why the comparision is silly

[Kitsune]

Yeah I meant decades, GazB. Sry. I will correct that in the post above.



The "rebuilding of Germany" was done by Germans, not by "the West". The 17 billion bucks from America were a help, but it is a gross exaggeration to call this monetarian help the "rebuilding" of Germany.



The Soviet System was just as cruel as a the Nazi one. Actually its deathtoll is much higher. And the Russians killed millions of non Russians within the so called "Sovietunion" (Estonians , Lettvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Usbeks...) That they called them "Soviet citizens" doesn't mean a thing. They were as much conquered people as were those peoples of Europe the Nazis mistreated.
The Sovietunion had partaken in the attack on Poland that had started WWII, they had attacked Finland before Hitler attacked anyone else...is it a mitigating factor that the Red Army failed so miserably in their attempt to blitzconquer this tiny nation?
How many of these 17 million dead Russian civilians (the numbers differ though) were killed by the Nazis and how many by the Soviets is debatable. For example Stalin explicitly forbid the citizens of Stalingrad to flee from the city. This has contributed somewhat to their deathtoll, don't you think? Other areas were left to the Germans without fight, or people starved to death because of the Soviet "scorched earth" policy. So, its not the evil Fascists, who are responsible alone here (although precisely this was teached in Soviet schools for centuries...errr...decades...phewww)

After the war the Russians added eastern Europe to their sphere of control. You know that there was a BIG resistance movement with ca. 50.000 guerilla fighters in the Baltic states, which the Russians had to crush? That took them 10 years, until around 1955. Of course, the West (who was pleaded for help by the Baltic people) ignored it. Have you ever heard of the insurgence of the East-German workers in 1953? The Soviets crushed it with tanks, Tianamen style (hundreds were killed). Or of the attempt of the Hungarians to free themselves of Soviet rule in 1956? That was a veritable war, the Red Army had to withdraw from Budapest. The insurgence fighters held out till November 1956 until they were finally crushed. Sry, if I ommit attempts of other peoples to free themselves of the soviet yoke here.

So, frankly, I do not understand how exactly the Russians deserved this "good treatment" you are demanding for them.

But I am a reasonable guy. So, if you insist, let us treat them as Germany was treated. Occupy Russia. Dissolve the Russian Army. Divide the country between the "victorious powers of the West". Take their sovereignity away. And have the Polish secure their part with a wall, barbwire and minefields. And the Russians are teached in their schools that their fathers and grandfathers are villains. Have Hollywood make a million flicks, showing Russian soldiers as stupid, evil goons. Point out their astrocities, but ommit the ones of their enemies.
And pay them 350 billion bucks for it.

If you think that this will result in a new, prosperous and friendly Russia, be my guest. But I somehow doubt, that Putin will agree to this "good" treatment...



GazB wrote
Perhaps you poor comprehension of English is your problem. Well, if you think my English is bad, you should see me play golf...
Not everyone can be as intelligent as you are. (A very disturbing thought, indeed...)



Sry if this offends some people here (like Ratamacue...didn't mean to offend you , I wanted to offend GazB p-) ) but I simply have to set these things straight. I simply cannot stand any glorifying of the Sovietunion. Actually, I am usually the one who warns of any humiliation of the Russian people (as the present government seems to intend with their actions in the caucasus area). I am well aware that the downfall from Superpower status (albeit an very one dimensional one, military and not much else) is quite disturbing to their people. Others had to go through this, too, though. In a more or less forceful manner.

Whereas any attempt to humilate Russia is wrong, it is even more dangerous to let them develope a glorifying picture of their Soviet past. This picture, along with a dissatisfaction of the present, could lead to the attempt to revive the past. With dissastrous consequences.
And that could mean that Russian finally does receive the treatment Germany received after WWII. And believe me, you don't really want that to happen.

[GazB]

They were both countries devestated by war and suffered massive loss, while communism just collapsed economically

Which was the inevidible result of the cost of WWII and international isolation for all this time. It wouldn't have mattered if they were capitalist, communist or Japanese or German, the way they were economically isolated and yet trying to maintain military parity with the rest of the world what chance did they have?


And japan and germany had unconditional surrender terms.

Germany and Japan also directly attacked the West, with bombs falling in London and Hawaii. Germany and Japan also clearly started the wars they lost.


Thats why the comparision is silly

The silly thing is you suggesting a direct exact comparison of actions for different situations. The reality is that the US still treats Russia as an enemy... in fact it treats it worse than it treats communist China.


The 17 billion bucks from America were a help, but it is a gross exaggeration to call this monetarian help the "rebuilding" of Germany.


Both cash and investment from the US made Germany what it is today.


The Soviet System was just as cruel as a the Nazi one. Actually its deathtoll is much higher.

Not over the relative time periods. From 1933-1945 the Nazis were responsible for over 50 million deaths. Even Stalin didn't kill that many.


For example Stalin explicitly forbid the citizens of Stalingrad to flee from the city.

Rubbish. For a period of the war the Soviet hold on Stalingrad was just 2-3 Factories... how could the entire population of Stalingrad fit in 2-3 Factories... that never actually stopped production mind you... the tractor factories continued to make tanks. If you made a mistake and meant Leningrad over 1/3rd of the population died of starvation or were killed, a little under 1/3rd survived and remained in the city building defences and 1/3rd were evacuated on empty trucks that brought food or ammo.


So, frankly, I do not understand how exactly the Russians deserved this "good treatment" you are demanding for them.


Of course, it was Russia's fault. Stalin was from Georgia, not Russia. Are Germans today to be held responsible for the actions of that Austrian called Adolph Hitler?


Not everyone can be as intelligent as you are. (A very disturbing thought, indeed...)


Yes, I did say that poor English comprehension is a sign of stupidity.


I simply cannot stand any glorifying of the Sovietunion.

Where did I glorify the SU?


This picture, along with a dissatisfaction of the present, could lead to the attempt to revive the past. With dissastrous consequences.
And that could mean that Russian finally does receive the treatment Germany received after WWII. And believe me, you don't really want that to happen.

You idiot. You waste time telling me off for glorifying the SU and now you make the point I made. TREATING THE RUSSIANS THE WAY THEY HAVE BEEN THE WEST IS IN DANGER OF MAKING THEM WANT THE OLD WAYS BACK AND THAT WILL BENEFIT NO ONE.

But no, you just blather on about sending in US troops and Polish troops to take away Russian soveignty... why not... it is working so well in Iraq.

The Germans were the bad guys too, as were the Japanese, but they got financial help and they were included into the international community and helped with trade and investment. All I am saying is that it is a mistake not to extend the same to Russia. The Rebuilding of Germany and Japan was to avoid repeating the mistakes after WWI. With nuclear and bio weapons I'd think the same lesson applies double today but noone is listening.

[Kitsune]

GazB wrote:
Germany and Japan also directly attacked the West, with bombs falling in London and Hawaii. Germany and Japan also clearly started the wars they lost.

Germany did not attack Great Britain. Great Britain declared war on Germany. As did France. Hitler originally did not want war with both, in the case of Great Britain because he admired it, in the case of France because he believed it would be too risky to repeat the mistakes of WWI (which were, according to him, fighting the western civilisations while the real problem would be eastern un-civilisation). Hitlers aggressive attempt to regain the Polish territories (which belonged to Germany before 1918 and had done so since its foundation and mostly to Prussia nearly 200 years before that, let to the intervention of France and Britain. This is today (inacurately) subsumized under the heading "Hitler started the second world war". Only that he did neither attempt to start a war with France or Great Britain, let alone a worldwide conflict.
I say this just for the sake of correctness. Saddam Hussein, for example, did attack Kuwait and was then attaked by the USA. It would be wrong to accuse him of attacking the United States, however justified their intervention may have been.


GazB wrote:

Both cash and investment from the US made Germany what it is today.
And European investments (monetarian and people) made the US what it is today. :roll:
Its a matter of assessing priorites here. The Marshall plan was a contributing factor, but not the decisive one. That was the skill and work of the German population.
Proof: If you would be right, than an investment of an comparable amount should turn ANY region or nation into as successful an state as Germany. Try it (perhaps the US is just doing that in Iraq) and you will see that you are wrong.


GazB wrote:
Not over the relative time periods. From 1933-1945 the Nazis were responsible for over 50 million deaths. Even Stalin didn't kill that many.
Oh you are just stockpiling all the deaths of WWII on the heap of Nazi guilt? Hitlers guilt: 100%, Stalins guilt: 0.0%? 50 million? Obviously, you have not only included the all the deaths in the Sovietunion (where Stalin contributed greatly), but also those in Poland (which Stalin did attack, too) and Finland (which only Stalin attacked) even the casualties of the Eastern Asian part of the war (with which Hitler had about nothing to do).
Neat.

You are an idiot.



Rubbish. For a period of the war the Soviet hold on Stalingrad was just 2-3 Factories... how could the entire population of Stalingrad fit in 2-3 Factories... that never actually stopped production mind you... the tractor factories continued to make tanks.
Its not rubbish. What has the fact, that the Germans nearly conquered Stalingrad to do with the fact that Stalin had forbidden for its citzens to leave the city as the Germans were advancing?
Suggestion: Read a book. Perhaps that helps.


GazB wrote:
But no, you just blather on about sending in US troops and Polish troops to take away Russian soveignty... why not... it is working so well in Iraq.
As if i said that this would be a great idea. :roll:



GazB wrote:
The Germans were the bad guys too, as were the Japanese, but they got financial help and they were included into the international community and helped with trade and investment. All I am saying is that it is a mistake not to extend the same to Russia. The Rebuilding of Germany and Japan was to avoid repeating the mistakes after WWI. With nuclear and bio weapons I'd think the same lesson applies double today but noone is listening.
You are a bit naive, aren't you? Germany and Japan were conquered and becames essentially protectorates of America. The US did their best to shape both nations according to their interests. One of these interests was their starting rivalry with the Sovietunion. The idea was: better the US reigns in Germany and Japan than the Soviets. Better to make our stand against communism here than in Kansas (because that way, if WWIII comes, German civilians die, and thats better than American ones, isn't it? Unless their is a worldwide thermonuclear war, in which case everyone dies...) And even more: why not utilize the Germans against the Soviets? If they like fighting wars so much...
But to do that is, you needed an economic sound Germany. So why not help a little bit (not that the US suffered greatly in helping, they could afford it easily). It is an investment. Pay a bit now, reap more rewards later. Its called "hatching ones bets" I think (my poor command of the english language again).
And thats the point: conquering Germany, taking its souvereignity away, cannot be separated from the Marshall plan.
But Russia wasn't conquered.
The Benz belongs to you now, that is why you wash and polish it. But the Lada does not belong to you...so why bother?

To give monetarian help to an former enemy, who has not been conquered but jut dropped out of the race without stopping his opposition to you, that would be quite unprecedated in history, wouldn't it?
And that finishes my lengthy comment about your statement "Russia would be badly treated after it lost, unlike Germany": Both situations are quite different. Not to be compared. And, as it is, the Russians are still on their own. With all consequences, good and bad. And most Russians would even like that, the way it is.

[GazB]

Germany did not attack Great Britain. Great Britain declared war on Germany.

I realise the commonwealth declared war on Germany together, what has that to do with anything?
Germany dropped bombs on Britain... and many other countries besides.


And European investments (monetarian and people) made the US what it is today.

No, the isolation that protected it largely from damage during two very costly World Wars is what made the US what it is today.


If you would be right, than an investment of an comparable amount should turn ANY region or nation into as successful an state as Germany.

China has had no "handouts", the US has just opened its market and the wests market to it. Its economy is booming.


Oh you are just stockpiling all the deaths of WWII on the heap of Nazi guilt? Hitlers guilt: 100%, Stalins guilt: 0.0%? 50 million?

Without German actions these events would not have occured. Stalin would have had no interests in creating a buffer zone between him and a new powerful Germany so Poland would not have been attacked.


What has the fact, that the Germans nearly conquered Stalingrad to do with the fact that Stalin had forbidden for its citzens to leave the city as the Germans were advancing?


How many soviets ignored the word of Stalin? More importantly how many NKVD blocking teams ignored the word of Stalin?


Suggestion: Read a book. Perhaps that helps.

How about quoting a book that describes this fantasy of yours?


"hatching ones bets"

Hedging ones' bets usually means covering yourself for any eventuality.


And thats the point: conquering Germany, taking its souvereignity away, cannot be separated from the Marshall plan.

When was Great Britain conquered by the US? The Marshall plan was financial aid to assist rebuilding. The cynical use of German citizens as a tank trap is some thing rather different.


But Russia wasn't conquered.

So what? Does that mean Russia should remain isolated economically and politically?


To give monetarian help to an former enemy, who has not been conquered but jut dropped out of the race without stopping his opposition to you, that would be quite unprecedated in history, wouldn't it?


To ignore a potentially powerful ally or powerful enemy at a time when it is weak is not sowing the seeds of future peace. If you keep him shut out and continue to treat him like an enemy then how do you expect that child to respond. When some moron like Zhurinovsky gets in power and starts doing things the West really doesn't like perhaps it will realise the window of opportunity it missed... but by then it will be too late. (wonder if NY will be glowing when the west makes that realisation... obviously be too late by then...).