Britain wants UK break up, poll shows

[Havoc345]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1535193/Britain-wants-UK-break-up%2C-poll-shows.html

The United Kingdom should be broken up and Scotland and England set free as independent nations, according to a huge number of voters on both sides of the border.

A clear majority of people in both England and Scotland are in favour of full independence for Scotland, an ICM opinion poll for The Sunday Telegraph has found. Independence is backed by 52 per cent of Scots while an astonishing 59 per cent of English voters want Scotland to go it alone.
There is also further evidence of rising English nationalism with support for the establishment of an English parliament hitting an historic high of 68 per cent amongst English voters. Almost half – 48 per cent – also want complete independence for England, divorcing itself from Wales and Northern Ireland as well. Scottish voters also back an English breakaway with 58 per cent supporting an English parliament with similar powers to the Scottish one.
The poll comes only months before the 300th anniversary of the Act of Union between England and Scotland and will worry all three main political parties. None of them favours Scottish independence, but all have begun internal debates on the future of the constitution.
The dramatic findings came as Gordon Brown, the favourite to succeed Tony Blair as Prime Minister, delivered an impassioned defence of the Union at Labour's Scottish conference in Oban yesterday.
In an attack on the Scottish National Party, against whom Labour will fight a bitter battle for control of the Edinburgh-based parliament next May, the Chancellor claimed: "We should never let the Nationalists deceive people into believing that you can break up the United Kingdom."
The ICM poll told a very different story, however, with 60 per cent of English voters complaining that higher levels of public spending per head of the population in Scotland were "unjustified", compared to 28 per cent claiming they were justified. Even among Scots, 36 per cent said the system was unfair, with only 51 per cent supporting it.
Voters also had serious concerns about the so-called West Lothian Question, the ability of Scottish MPs at Westminster to vote on solely English matters while many purely Scottish issues are decided in Edinburgh. Sixty-two per cent of English voters want Scottish MPs stripped of this right and even 46 per cent of Scots agreed. The poll showed that the English are more likely to think of themselves as British than the Scots are. Only 16 per cent of English people said they were "English, not British", compared to 26 per cent of Scots who said they were "Scottish, not British."
In the sporting arena, 70 per cent of English people said they would support a Scottish team playing football or rugby against a nation other than England. But, when the question was put to Scots, only 48 per cent said they would back England with 34 per cent supporting their opponents, no matter which country it was.
There was good news for David Cameron, the Conservative leader, when voters in England were asked who they would back in a general election held tomorrow. The Tories were on 37 per cent, with 31 per cent backing Labour and 23 per cent supporting the Liberal Democrats.

Mr Brown said: "There is a debate to be had about the future of the United Kingdom. But I think when you look at the arguments — at the family ties, the economic connections, the shared values, the history of our relationship which has lasted 300 years — people will decide we are stronger together and weaker apart."
Mr Cameron said: "The union between England, Scotland and Wales is good for us all and we are stronger together than we are apart. The last thing we need is yet another parliament with separate elections and more politicians spending more money."
Sir Menzies Campbell, the Lib Dem leader, called for a "calm rational debate" on the role of MPs from Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales at Westminster. "The last thing we need is knee-jerk opportunistic political responses."
Alex Salmond, the SNP leader, said: "In England, people quite rightly resent Scottish Labour MPs bossing them about on English domestic legislation. England has as much right to self government as Scotland does."



*Personally I think the U.K. should come to an end. Let Northern Ireland be absorbed into Ireland. If the Ulster-Scots or English there don't like it they can go back England and Scotland. Also Wales and Scotland should become independent.

[muck]

Interesting development to put it mildly.

[Britboy]

...Scottish voters also back an English breakaway with 58 per cent supporting an English parliament with similar powers to the Scottish one.

...The ICM poll told a very different story, however, with 60 per cent of English voters complaining that higher levels of public spending per head of the population in Scotland were "unjustified", compared to 28 per cent claiming they were justified. Even among Scots, 36 per cent said the system was unfair, with only 51 per cent supporting it.

...Voters also had serious concerns about the so-called West Lothian Question, the ability of Scottish MPs at Westminster to vote on solely English matters while many purely Scottish issues are decided in Edinburgh. Sixty-two per cent of English voters want Scottish MPs stripped of this right and even 46 per cent of Scots agreed. The poll showed that the English are more likely to think of themselves as British than the Scots are. Only 16 per cent of English people said they were "English, not British", compared to 26 per cent of Scots who said they were "Scottish, not British."

*Personally I think the U.K. should come to an end. Let Northern Ireland be absorbed into Ireland. If the Ulster-Scots or English there don't like it they can go back England and Scotland. Also Wales and Scotland should become independent.

Devolution does not mean seccession from the Union; a bit of annoyance of who gets what proportion of monies from where, and who gets to vote on just what, does not equal a crumbling state.

Semantics on 'English not British' or whatever is pretty meaningless too. I identify with my country (and my region within that country, right down to my village), as well as being part of GB/UK, and also being European (not in the sense of thinking the sun shines out of the EU's jacksey, but in understanding that we and Europe have some common values and culture) and to be honest, the rest of the Commonwealth I'd like to think (again shared culture and heritage).

Different levels of allegiance simultaneously are possible you know, just because a soldier identifies strongly with his section doesnt mean he doesnt identify with his battalion and regiment as well, for example...

And you always get people who say they want to be independent, without regarding that right now, devolution allows us to be pretty independent in internal affairs as well as getting a lot of benefit from being part of the Union. Could we really go it alone successfully? Why would we?

As for your last comment, LOL, WTF? You should come out with some Israel-Palestine partition plan or something mate, your skillz are wasted! :p

[Havoc345]

As for your last comment, LOL, WTF? You should come out with some Israel-Palestine partition plan or something mate, your skillz are wasted! :p

I just feel that Ireland should be for the Irish, simple as that.

[Britboy]

Just to check:

You are aware NI was made part of the Irish Free State (pre-Eire) by us, and only a day after this voluntarily ceded from IFS to rejoin the UK, right? We made them part of the RoI and they wanted out and back to us ASAP.

And you are aware that when the British Army first deployed to NI in the 60s when the Troubles were beginning, it was to protect Catholics, not somehow to subdue them, right?

Just checking, as I overheard a neighbour of mine going on about how fvcking great she thinks the IRA are, despite her being English with only slight Irish roots, and had to re-edumacate her a little! Shame, she's pretty hawt, but can't bare people thinking murdering terrorist/criminals are somehow romantic freedom fighters...

Regards
BB

[Bombtrack]

I just feel that Ireland should be for the Irish, simple as that.

I love when teenaged Americans weigh in on Ireland.

[Havoc345]

Just to check:

You are aware NI was made part of the Irish Free State (pre-Eire) by us, and only a day after this voluntarily ceded from IFS to rejoin the UK, right?

And you are aware that when the British Army first deployed to NI in the 60s when the Troubles were beginning, it was to protect Catholics, not somehow to subdue them, right?

Just checking, as I overheard a neighbour of mine going on about how fvcking great she thinks the IRA are, despite her being English with only slight Irish roots, and had to re-edumacate her a little! Shame, she's pretty hawt, but can't bare people thinking murdering terrorist/criminals are somehow romantic freedom fighters...

Regards
BB

1. Yes I'm aware of that

2. That's debatable

3. She sounds like a dumb **** and btw how bout the good 'ol UDF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Freedom_Fighters

[Bombtrack]

In before the rock.

http://snarkerati.com/movie-news/files/2008/02/dwaynejohnson.jpg

[Havoc345]

I love when teenaged Americans weigh in on Ireland.

It's also just as entertaining when 20 something Canadians give their two cents.

[wildcat]

*Personally I think the U.K. should come to an end. Let Northern Ireland be absorbed into Ireland. If the Ulster-Scots or English there don't like it they can go back England and Scotland. Also Wales and Scotland should become independent.
I think England should be absorbed back into France....just kidding.

[Britboy]

What about the various loyalist paramilitary groups, anyone who uses political violence like that is just plain wrong IMO. Its also rather odd for you to be promoting seccessionism, when America fought its bloodiest-ever war against the Confederate seccessionists. They wanted out. NI wanted in, as displayed by its ceding from IFS and back to UK. Why should we turn over a whole country of our Union to a terrorist group? You wouldn't support Shamil Basaev and his lot, would you? And why was America so keen Georgia didn't lose South Ossetia and Abkhazia? You can't just go carving up peoples territorial integrity on a whim.

Also notice the Security Forces in NI aren't being hit every day by those who want to join the south - the people of NI are fine with being in UK. Its the 'plastic paddies' like this girl who has a slight Irish connection but nothing else who are all pro-IRA. I doubt they have much of a clue.

I'm not fantastically up-to-speed on Irish history but here we go!

[LineDoggie]

I must have missed it, how many People were Polled total?

[matthew.manhorn]

Well, even if Scotland declares independence it will likely be part of the commonwealth anyway, who cares.

[Britboy]

The way I read it, it was a forgone conclusion. We made them part of IFS. The people of NI and the people of the South knew that NI would almost certainly wish to leave and rejoin UK. So they were reintegrated with the South of Ireland but within a day were back asking to be part of UK again.

Now, any more interference in the internal affairs of a sovereign state from our American friends?

[Havoc345]

What about the various loyalist paramilitary groups, anyone who uses political violence like that is just plain wrong IMO. Its also rather odd for you to be promoting seccessionism, when America fought its bloodiest-ever war against the Confederate seccessionists. They wanted out. NI wanted in, as displayed by its ceding from IFS and back to UK. Why should we turn over a whole country of our Union to a terrorist group? You wouldn't support Shamil Basaev and his lot, would you? And why was America so keen Georgia didn't lose South Ossetia and Abkhazia? You can't just go carving up peoples territorial integrity on a whim.

Also notice the Security Forces in NI aren't being hit every day by those who want to join the south - the people of NI are fine with being in UK. Its the 'plastic paddies' like this girl who has a slight Irish connection but nothing else who are all pro-IRA. I doubt they have much of a clue.

I'm not fantastically up-to-speed on Irish history but here we go!

America was keen on Georgia not losing South Ossetia and Abkhazia because they would have become and could still become Russian auntonomous regions like Kalinigrad and would have been a place to base Russian troops and ICBM's.

But wutever moving on, the Ulster-Scots and English of Northern Ireland are the descendants of the Lords and laborers who ran the Plantation of Ulster, they virtually enslaved the indigenous Irish Catholics and oppressed them to the point that they almost lost their very own cultural identity. What's their legimitate reason for still being their. "Well since you signed the treaty in 1921 and became the Free State were gonna become part of Great Britain so you can't kick us out, otherwise you'll have King George on your arse." Believe me if the Irish had the means to drive the Protestant Ulster-Scots and English out of N.I. after the War of Independence they would have.

[Havoc345]

*Flamesuit On*

[Britboy]

America was keen on Georgia not losing South Ossetia and Abkhazia because they would have become and could still become Russian auntonomous regions like Kalinigrad and would have been a place to base Russian troops and ICBM's.

But wutever moving on, the Ulster-Scots and English of Northern Ireland are the descendants of the Lords and laborers who ran many of Ireland plantations, they virtually enslaved the indigenous Irish Catholics and oppressed them to the point that they almost lost their very own cultural identity. What's their legimitate reason for still being their. "Well since you signed the treaty in 1921 and became the Free State were gonna become part of Great Britain so you can't kick us out, otherwise you'll have King George on your arse." Believe me if the Irish had the means to drive the Protestant Ulster-Scots and English out of N.I. after the War of Independence they would have.

Your first comment makes little sense to me, seeing as Russia borders Georgia anyway for its ICBM sites, but as you say, whatever.

As for your second comment, I eagerly anticipate the handing back of North America to its indigenous Native Americans, the handing back of Oz and NZ to the Aboriginal and Maori peoples, and so on and so forth.

History's history. Live with it.

[Havoc345]

Differing opinions on a United Ireland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland

Public opinion in Northern Ireland


In 1973, the population of Northern Ireland was polled (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Irish_sovereignty_referendum,_1973) on whether Northern Ireland should remain part of the United Kingdom or join with the Republic of Ireland to form a United Ireland. The poll was largely boycotted by Catholics, and so the result of 98.9% in favour of union with the rest of the UK represented the opinion of 57.45% of the electorate. [16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland#cite_note-15)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland#cite_note-16)
A possible referendum on a united Ireland was included as part of the terms of the Belfast Agreement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belfast_Agreement). Currently about 42% of the Northern Ireland electorate vote for Irish nationalist parties that oppose the union with Great Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain) and support a united Ireland as an alternative, although it is not the only issue at election time so it is difficult to take this figure as a direct indication of levels of support for a united Ireland. A survey taken in 2007 showed support for a united Ireland at 23% and support for Northern Ireland remaining in the United Kingdom at 66%. 6% support independence or other arrangements.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland#cite_note-nilt2006-17)

Public opinion in the Republic of Ireland

Support for Irish unity is a feature of all major political parties in the Republic of Ireland. Some very small pressure groups do exist, such as the Reform Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Movement_(Ireland)) and lodges of the Orange Order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Institution) in the Republic of Ireland, that are sympathetic to Northern Ireland remaining within the UK for the foreseeable future, but their impact on the broader political opinion is negligible. A Dublin riot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Dublin_riots) in 2006 prevented a march organised by "Love Ulster", though the rioters did not have a wide support base. A 2006 Sunday Business Post (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_Business_Post) survey reported that 99% of voters in the Republic favour a united Ireland: only 1% believe that "achieving a united Ireland should be the first priority of the government" while 55% say they "would like to see a united Ireland, but not as the first priority of government." Of the remainder 10% said no efforts should be made to bring about a united Ireland and 13% had no opinion.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland#cite_note-iepoll2006-18) This poll was markedly up from one year earlier when a Sunday Independent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_Independent) article[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland#cite_note-19) reported that 55% would support a united Ireland, while the remainder said such an ambition held no interest. Such poll results should be seen in the context that Irish reunification would entail a significant financial burden for the economy and taxpayers of the southern 26 counties of the present-day Republic.[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland#cite_note-20)

Public opinion in Great Britain

There is significant support in Great Britain for Ireland to reunify as a political entity. An ICM poll conduced by The Guardian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian) in 2001 revealed that only 26% of Britons supported Northern Ireland remaining a part of the UK, while 41% supported a united Ireland.[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland#cite_note-21) The British Social Attitudes Survey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Social_Attitudes_Surveys) in 2006 found 34% supported Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK, and 39% supported a united Ireland.[23 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland#cite_note-22)






Growth of Support for Sinn Fein in N.I. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinn_F%C3%A9in

http://i42.tinypic.com/wumrti.png
The party overtook its nationalist rival, the Social Democratic and Labour Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_and_Labour_Party) as the largest nationalist party in the 2001 Westminster General Election (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2001) and Local Election (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_local_elections,_2001), winning four Westminster seats to the SDLP's three. The party however continues to subscribe to an abstentionist policy towards seats in the Westminster British parliament, as taking the seats they won would require them to swear allegiance to the British monarchy and recognise British jurisdiction over Northern Ireland.[90] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinn_F%C3%A9in#cite_note-89) The party won five TDs in the 2002 Republic general election (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_general_election,_2002), an increase of four.

It went on to increase its share of the nationalist vote in the 2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Assembly_Election,_2003) and 2007 Assembly elections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Assembly_Election,_2007), with Martin McGuinness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_McGuinness), previously Minister for Education, taking the post of Deputy First Minister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deputy_First_Minister) in the Northern Ireland Power-Sharing Executive Committee in which the party also received three ministries.

[Bombtrack]

Wikipedia quoted. Argument won.

[Britboy]

You do realise that people are free to move from NI to RoI, right?

Its not as if they are turned away at the border, in fact you don't even know you're crossing the border, there is utterly free movement.

What is to stop those who hate living under the evil yoke of UK going to Eire? Nothing.

However, whats telling to me is, there are still people happy to live in NI, they live and work and spend their leisuretime there, they settle and have families there. They don't constantly petrol bomb the security forces. The RoI is fine with it too.

They're happy with it. Why can't you be happy with them being contented? How does it even affect you anyhow? Or are you one of those Americans who gave money to the IRA for arms under NORAID, and are now disappointed that your investment didn't get rid of the UK in NI??

Its people who have little idea of it (and America seems to be rather bad for this) who feel the need to stir things up. Stop it. I should take this as seriously as you would take me if I came on here talking about Native Americans kicking all non-indigenous out of USA. Or in reestablishing the Confederate States of America. Or in utterly condemning the way you ran the Phillipines.

Dry your eyes mate.

[LineDoggie]

Trying to stay on the Original topic, though the poll states the percentages, what was or where can we find the total number of Citizens polled?

If they polled 1,000 I cant see it being representative of the whole UK.....

[Kilgor]

They ain't going to let go of the north sea oil and gas areas.

[Britboy]

Yep, sorry there LD, got led into a bit of a slanging match.

I agree. Its also important to remember that people often feel with their heart about such things, and that means local, tribal loyalties. Yes I am happy to be from my country, so might choose to identify myself as such, but I'm also happy to be part of UK, and engaging brain also makes being part of the Union make sense.

So just because someone says they are English or Scottish rather than British does not neccessarily mean Britain is due to break up. Just that people are proud of their national heritage as well as glad to be part of the Union, which, I think, is a beneficial arrangement for us.

[Mu-Meson]

From the article:
Last Updated: 1:26AM GMT 27 Nov 2006

because of this:

The dramatic findings came as Gordon Brown, the favourite to succeed Tony Blair as Prime Minister, delivered an impassioned defence of the Union at Labour's Scottish conference in Oban yesterday.

I wonder what the polls say now? How much of an impact will the economic turmoil have? I don't know much about scottish nationalism, but I think some of it may have help by being in a boom-time mindset. How many people are willing to enter this kind of political situation now that the world economy has gone belly up. Scotland gets a pretty sweet deal from London, doesnt it?

[Britboy]

From the article:
Last Updated: 1:26AM GMT 27 Nov 2006

because of this:


I wonder what the polls say now? How much of an impact will the economic turmoil have? I don't know much about scottish nationalism, but I think some of it may have help by being in a boom-time mindset. How many people are willing to enter this kind of political situation now that the world economy has gone belly up. Scotland gets a pretty sweet deal from London, doesnt it?

Ha true, but maybe the English will be more in favour of breakup now, then they could get rid of Gordo and his policies of throwing money at the banks so their CEOs can retire with a few extra Bentleys in the garage...

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Ha true, but maybe the English will be more in favour of breakup now, then they could get rid of Gordo and his policies of throwing money at the banks so their CEOs can retire with a few extra Bentleys in the garage...Maybe you have forgotten the Lloyds debacle when the Government stepped in and covered the losses of private individuals. Despite Cameron's promise of tighter fiscal rules for the economy and government I have no doubt that they would bail out the banks if called on to do so.

The English can get rid of Brown if they want they will still be in the grip of SOG (Scottish Occupational Government) due Cameron's roots being very Jock.

[Telmar]

Some Europeans seem want to return to living in smaller administrative and national organizations.

The growing Euroscepticism seems to fuel on that trend as well. At least partially.

[muttbutt]

*Personally I think the U.K. should come to an end. Let Northern Ireland be absorbed into Ireland. If the Ulster-Scots or English there don't like it they can go back England and Scotland. Also Wales and Scotland should become independent.We don't want NI back, it costs the British government billions to keep it running, we can't afford it, plus telling 700,000 people to like it or get lost is s recipe for disaster and I'd rather my country not have to go down the old ethnic clensing route,
BTW a large percentage of those people have been there for over 300 year's, where exactly in Scotland should they go too, most can trace their families back longer then the US has existed......should the Germans be told to expect large numbers of their returning folk from the US?

[Connaught Ranger]

I just feel that Ireland should be for the Irish, simple as that.

A mentality from the Dark Ages:roll:. the Irish - Scots - Welsh and English are so intertwined in each others history, lives, and genetics its simply not possible to do what you want.

This thread is started by another "Plastic Paddy" living in New York, and who has no idea of the realities of life in Ireland, either North or South.:roll:

Turning the clock back will not achieve one iota of anything.

Welcome to the United States of Europe, a cold hard fact!

Connaught Ranger (proud to be of Anglo-Irish Ancestry.:hug:)

[muttbutt]

A mentality from the Dark Ages:roll:. the Irish - Scots - Welsh and English are so intertwined in each others history, lives, and genetics its simply not possible to do what you want.

Turning the clock back will not achieve one iota of anything.

Welcome to the United States of Europe, a cold hard fact!

Connaught Ranger (proud to be of Anglo-Irish Ancestry.:hug:)
He probably wouldn't like to walk around the towns and cities now, lot's of very non traditional looking Irish facesp-)....some of whom are my relations

[TheKiwi]

Mr O'Brooklyn should try reading some of the history of Ireland. The whole island is a collection of property disputes dating back to the golden celtic ages. A history of one tribe pushing another around and taking their land, then vis versa again.

[welshmann]

Yep, sorry there LD, got led into a bit of a slanging match.

I agree. Its also important to remember that people often feel with their heart about such things, and that means local, tribal loyalties. Yes I am happy to be from my country, so might choose to identify myself as such, but I'm also happy to be part of UK, and engaging brain also makes being part of the Union make sense.

So just because someone says they are English or Scottish rather than British does not neccessarily mean Britain is due to break up. Just that people are proud of their national heritage as well as glad to be part of the Union, which, I think, is a beneficial arrangement for us.

X2
best comment in this thread

the only time the welsh, scots,irish & english are at war is on the rugby pitch :)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I just feel that Ireland should be for the Irish, simple as that.

We've got a live one! :)

Let me guess another fcuking plastic paddy from the States:roll:

[welshmann]

im trying really hard not to answer his comments.

[Atlantic Friend]

Mr O'Brooklyn should try reading some of the history of Ireland. The whole island is a collection of property disputes dating back to the golden celtic ages. A history of one tribe pushing another around and taking their land, then vis versa again.

Then again, what modern nation isn't, particularly in Europe ?

[gaz]

The poll comes only months before the 300th anniversary of the Act of Union between England and Scotland and will worry all three main political parties.

The 300th anniversary of the Act of Union was nearly three years ago.

[oldsoak]

I think we all should become part of the ROI p-)
.....legs it into the nearest shell scrape.....

[Lazy Lob]

We've got a live one! :)

Let me guess another fcuking plastic paddy from the States:roll:

'ello stab, been unbanned? Nice to have you back.

I´m biting my tongue on this one.

[Tokamak]

im trying really hard not to answer his comments.

You are not the only one.

[ando]

I´m biting my tongue on this one.

Im having to be restrained !!

[oldsoak]

s'all right fellas - the Irish lads have already given him the good news

[MoFo]

Hold me back britches hold me BACK!

wait, whats all this fighting about. I know an Irishman, true story.

[Lazy Lob]

Im having to be restrained !!

Well hurry up and finish fapping infront of those OAPs in the office.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

'ello stab, been unbanned? Nice to have you back.

I´m biting my tongue on this one.


Hello LL nice to see you too. Served me time on the 'naughty step' again :)

[Arfah]

News just in...

The original 13 Colonies of The Americas are being returned to Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland which has graciously handed them back to the Native Americans (We don't want them, Not now we know where they've been!) with the exception of New York City which is now a Dutch Tax Haven.

The U.S. Carribean Islands have been returned to HM GOVERNMENT too.

Florida, Mississippi & Louisiana are being returned to France

Georgia has become annexed by South Ossetia (see what I did there).

New Mexico, California and Texas are being handed to Mexico, which in turn is now under Spanish sovereignty

Hawaiian Islands want to be free and independent and are citing for war crimes after a US Marine murdered an unarmed Policeman back in the day.

Panama has nationalised "Its" canal

Peurto Rico and Costa Rica are dancing in the streets and are reclaiming all U.S. interests.

The Native Americans are suing the U.S. Federal Government (what's left of it) for atrocities committed since 1776

The African Americans are suing them for crimes against humanity.

The Klu Klux Klan are just plain Sh!tting themselves

Cuba has declared a National Holiday

**** Van Dyke has had his tongue removed for attempting a so called cockney accent and the People of the United States have been banned from speaking English as it's not theirs and are unable to maintain its high standards.

Go Jets !

Now if the Plastic, Spastic Yank can grow a sense of humour - (The 'H' isn't silent and there are two U's) and stop boring us all with his cynical historic inaccuracies, I would be quite grateful.

PS. I am British ! English at birth - Parents/Grandparents English & Scots - Great Grandparents from Southern Ireland and they moved to the U.K. in 1921 / 1922 to a land of opportunities.

I also have family in the Good Ol' U.S.ofA. another land of opportunity.:cantbeli:

[ando]

News just in...

The original 13 Colonies of The Americas are being returned to Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland which has graciously handed them back to the Native Americans (We don't want them, Not now we know where they've been!) with the exception of New York City which is now a Dutch Tax Haven.

The U.S. Carribean Islands have been returned to HM GOVERNMENT too.

Florida, Mississippi & Louisiana are being returned to France

Georgia has become annexed by South Ossetia (see what I did there).

New Mexico, California and Texas are being handed to Mexico, which in turn is now under Spanish sovereignty

Hawaiian Islands want to be free and independent and are citing for war crimes after a US Marine murdered an unarmed Policeman back in the day.

Panama has nationalised "Its" canal

Peurto Rico and Costa Rica are dancing in the streets and are reclaiming all U.S. interests.

The Native Americans are suing the U.S. Federal Government (what's left of it) for atrocities committed since 1776

The African Americans are suing them for crimes against humanity.

The Klu Klux Klan are just plain Sh!tting themselves

Cuba has declared a National Holiday

**** Van Dyke has had his tongue removed for attempting a so called cockney accent and the People of the United States have been banned from speaking English as it's not theirs and are unable to maintain its high standards.

Go Jets !

Now if the Plastic, Spastic Yank can grow a sense of humour - (The 'H' isn't silent and there are two U's) and stop boring us all with his cynical historic inaccuracies, I would be quite grateful.

PS. I am British ! English at birth - Parents/Grandparents English & Scots - Great Grandparents from Southern Ireland and they moved to the U.K. in 1921 / 1922 to a land of opportunities.

I also have family in the Good Ol' U.S.ofA. another land of opportunity.:cantbeli:

You sire are a star !!! Love it rofl

[a_very_ex_STAB]

You sire are a star !!! Love it rofl


x3 Excellent summation :-)

[Lazy Lob]

x3 Excellent summation :-)

I'll join the bandwagon.

[Lov3ll]

So to recap - in chronological order - the polls have gone, in terms of per cent in favour of independence: 49, 27, 45, 29, 33, 52, 40; and the final rollover number is 32...
FactCheck: Do the Scots support independence? (http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/factcheck+do+the+scots+support+independence/251043)
Support for Scottish independence slumps (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/scotland/1912478/Support-for-Scottish-independence-slumps.html)

[Old_Boy_Steve]

This will all die down once the Six Nations have been and gone.

[Lazy Lob]

BTW Arfah the correct spelling is Nuevo Mejico and Tejas. p-)

[Arfah]

I stand corrected !

[rgjbloke]

[quote=Airman OCCS;3863633]1.

2. That's debatable

It's not debatable. It's fact.

In the first instance, the British Army were called in mainly to protect the catholic population. And in the first instance, the catholic population welcomed them although that changed as the situation changed.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

[quote=Airman OCCS;3863633]1.

2. That's debatable

It's not debatable. It's fact.

In the first instance, the British Army were called in mainly to protect the catholic population. And in the first instance, the catholic population welcomed them although that changed as the situation changed.

Yes the IRA at the time really did not like the fact that the people they regarded as their 'subjects' were grateful to someone else for protection - so like a typical street gang they started stirring the sh1t. The rest is history but I guess Airhead OCCS has been thoroughly indoctrinated by the usual ill-informed misty eyed blarney that passes for historical fact about Ireland and Anglo-Irish history over there.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

FactCheck: Do the Scots support independence? (http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/factcheck+do+the+scots+support+independence/251043)
Support for Scottish independence slumps (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/scotland/1912478/Support-for-Scottish-independence-slumps.html)


Now that the so-called 'Northern Arc of Prosperity' that Alex Salmond was on about has gone down the sh1tter I wonder how much support there really is for Scottish Independence. I am guessing not much and I suspect it was always rather lower than Salmond's high flown rhetoric seemed to imply (as the Scots Nats are a minority government and only got in by 1 seat -even before the current economic debacle).

Seeing as Alex Salmond is a former bank economist (as he always liked to remind us) you would have thought he would have seen the writing on the wall for his 'Northern Arc of Prosperity' but apparently not and his former career no longer seems to be mentioned much. I wonder why.

[Atlantic Friend]

PS. I am British !

What can I say ? Nobody's perfect. ;)

[SrB-23Q]

Why dont they hold a referendum?

[SrB-23Q]

PS. I am British !:

its not your fault :hug:

[Arfah]

What can I say ? Nobody's perfect. ;)

I'll Just accept being the next best thing ! :)

Merci, mon ami.

[Arfah]

its not your fault :hug:

I know, I've always been lucky ! woot

[SrB-23Q]

I know, I've always been lucky ! woot

keep telling yourself that mate

dont give up :)

[Arfah]

Why dont they hold a referendum?

Personally, it would be a waste of money as the vote would be yes to the union.

Additionally, the Northern Irish, Scots & Welsh already have regional assemblies as well as having their Members of Parliament at Westminster.

The English do not (This means the above can vote on purely English affairs and therefore have the greater share of influence)!
If autonomy was acheived, the above would loose out on alot of other benefits as England generates the majority of taxes.

Also the EU would lose out as the total GDP would be divided up between the four nations and ultimately, the EU would have to provide funding four 3/4 of them.

Finally, I would be entitled to three passports instead of just one and that's just too much bureaucracy !

[Havoc345]

Well I guess I got what I expected by saying what I said about N.I. and Ireland. This is more or less a Conservative board and if I ask British members what they think of the break up of the United Kingdom of course I'm going to get Unionist responses. Well I guess I'll throw on a Celtic F.C. jersey and sob into a pint about Bobby Sands and Sinn Fein. But wait I'm not even Irish and any form as I've posted before so I'll just move on with my life. I just think it's funny though, I bring up a United Ireland and members here flip but I remember a few months back when posters here were screaming about how Tibet should be free. Tey talked of the oppression of the Chinese, posted videos of Chinese riot police beating Tibetan protesters and plenty changed their avatars to the Tibetan flag. But hey I guess history is only history and people only have a right to their homeland when it's not in your backyard. So boo when "they" oppress but "yay" when we do it.

[welshmann]

Well I guess I got what I expected by saying what I said about N.I. and Ireland. This is more or less a Conservative board and if I ask British members what they think of the break up of the United Kingdom of course I'm going to get Unionist responses. Well I guess I'll throw on a Celtic F.C. jersey and sob into a pint about Bobby Sands and Sinn Fein. But wait I'm not even Irish so I'll just move on with my life. I just think it's funny though, I bring up a United Ireland and members here flip but I remember a few months back when posters here were screaming about how Tibet should be free. Tey talked of the oppression of the Chinese, posted videos of Chinese riot police beating Tibetan protesters and plenty changed their avatars to the Tibetan flag. But hey I guess history is only history and people only have a right to their homeland when it's not in your backyard. So boo when "they" oppress but "yay" when we do it.

yep,u said it.

[Atlantic Friend]

I'll Just accept being the next best thing ! :)

Merci, mon ami.

Ah, with all the wars and invasions and rugby games and other fun stuff we shared, you can't be all bad. p-)

[Atlantic Friend]

So boo when "they" oppress but "yay" when we do it.

In this at least, the young lad hits it on the head...

As a grumpy old thirty-something, I sense a great disturbance in the Force.

[Arfah]

Well I guess I got what I expected by saying what I said about N.I. and Ireland. This is more or less a Conservative board and if I ask British members what they think of the break up of the United Kingdom of course I'm going to get Unionist responses. (http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/home2.shtml)
Well I guess I'll throw on a Celtic F.C. jersey (http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/home2.shtml)and sob into a pint about Bobby Sands and Sinn Fein. But wait I'm not even Irish and any form as I've posted before so I'll just move on with my life. I just think it's funny though, I bring up a United Ireland and members here flip but I remember a few months back when posters here were screaming about how Tibet should be free. Tey talked of the oppression of the Chinese, posted videos of Chinese riot police beating Tibetan protesters and plenty changed their avatars to the Tibetan flag. But hey I guess history is only history and people only have a right to their homeland when it's not in your backyard. So boo when "they" oppress but "yay" when we do it.

Or I could lend you mine ?

[Arfah]

Every one a New York Giant !http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/home2.shtml

[welshmann]

In this at least, the young lad hits it on the head...

As a grumpy old thirty-something, I sense a great disturbance in the Force.

oh come on my french friend,how he hit it on the head?the bloody english oppress us welsh ever since they killed our king how many years ago??,im not bitter....the great number of lakes that supply englands drinking water are in wales,i just piss in them(makes me feel better).
and we got to keep our sheep,its not all bad.plus would the rep of ireland even want it??

[Atlantic Friend]

oh come on my french friend,how he hit it on the head?the bloody english oppress us welsh ever since they killed our king how many years ago??,im not bitter....the great number of lakes that supply englands drinking water are in wales,i just piss in them(makes me feel better).
and we got to keep our sheep,its not all bad.plus would the rep of ireland even want it??

The general tendency to denounce behavior as barbary when someone else does it, and to justify as soon as "our side" does it. The old "freedom dying with thunderous applause" thing. That's where he does hit it on the head, IMHO.

English oppression of neighbouring nations of the United Kingdom (or lack thereof) is another matter, that I'll leave to Scots, Welshmen and Irishmen.

[welshmann]

The general tendency to denounce behavior as barbary when someone else does it, and to justify as soon as "our side" does it. The old "freedom dying with thunderous applause" thing. That's where he does hit it on the head, IMHO.

English oppression of neighbouring nations of the United Kingdom (or lack thereof) is another matter, that I'll leave to Scots, Welshmen and Irishmen.

fair point.

wait a min,is my country even in the union?we are not on the union flag!think we are classed under english rule.

[Atlantic Friend]

fair point.

Although, the English can't be all bad since they left you Welshmen keep a flag that is, when all is said and done, much cooler than the Union Jack.

[hsh2]

Wikipedia quoted. Argument won.

haha I lol'd.


Trying to stay on the Original topic, though the poll states the percentages, what was or where can we find the total number of Citizens polled?

If they polled 1,000 I cant see it being representative of the whole UK.....

x2

I find it hard to believe as well...

[vor033]

If the Union did break up i dont think it would be as clear cut as England, Scotland, Wales and Northern ireland going their own way. What would happen to places like Shetland that dont think of themselves as scottish ? would they be allowed to delcare independance with all that oil ?

What about the fact that over 40% of the Population of the scottish Highlands is not Scottish but English ?

What happens to areas such as Monmouthshire that at the moment is classed as part of wales but whose population think of themselves as English ? and an area that was an English county until the 1970's (not sure of the exact date)

And thats not even talking about the Problem of Northern Ireland, the Majority of the people of Northern Ireland think of themselves as British, and even though you get the various person going on about giving it to the Irish etc the People of Northern Ireland dont want to be part of Ireland. So unless you dont believe in the Democratic rights of the people who live there and want to Force them to be aprt of the Republic what do you do ??? Also dont forget the various Yanks, canadians etc on this bored who say all the Ulster-Scots etc should leave, they have been in Northern ireland longer than White people in North America ! So saying that they should leave is just stupid.

What about the Armed Froces ? what about our overseas dependancies ?

So what now for the Union ? I think we are better off as a unified country and but i do think its time to change the country into a more federal structure.

But of course in the end its us the Citizens of the UK that will decide and maybe people really are starting to think its time for us all to go our seperate ways :-( but of course that brings up the problems i mention:-(

[gaz]

I just think it's funny though, I bring up a United Ireland and members here flip but I remember a few months back when posters here were screaming about how Tibet should be free. Tey talked of the oppression of the Chinese, posted videos of Chinese riot police beating Tibetan protesters and plenty changed their avatars to the Tibetan flag. But hey I guess history is only history and people only have a right to their homeland when it's not in your backyard. So boo when "they" oppress but "yay" when we do it.

The majority of people who live in NI don't want to be part of RoI. The majority of people who live in RoI don't want NI to be part of RoI. Does the same hold true if you swapped NI for Tibet and RoI for China?
People who live in NI have exactly the same civil liberties as those who live in mainland Britain. Does the same hold true if you swapped NI for Tibet and Britain for China?

If the answer to those is 'no' (And I suspect it will be) then your argument doesn't really hold up.

[welshmann]

What happens to areas such as Monmouthshire that at the moment is classed as part of wales but whose population think of themselves as English ? and an area that was an English county until the 1970's (not sure of the exact date)



good point,im with you, my fly fishing would be crap.

[Britboy]

Well I guess I got what I expected by saying what I said about N.I. and Ireland. This is more or less a Conservative board and if I ask British members what they think of the break up of the United Kingdom of course I'm going to get Unionist responses. Well I guess I'll throw on a Celtic F.C. jersey and sob into a pint about Bobby Sands and Sinn Fein. But wait I'm not even Irish and any form as I've posted before so I'll just move on with my life. I just think it's funny though, I bring up a United Ireland and members here flip but I remember a few months back when posters here were screaming about how Tibet should be free. Tey talked of the oppression of the Chinese, posted videos of Chinese riot police beating Tibetan protesters and plenty changed their avatars to the Tibetan flag. But hey I guess history is only history and people only have a right to their homeland when it's not in your backyard. So boo when "they" oppress but "yay" when we do it.

When did I ever say free Tibet? TBH I laugh at the fact someone here spraypainted 'free Tibet' all over a Uni building but will not actually go and help advance the cause of this in any way - how sincere is that? 'Free Tibet' just became a rallying call for people who were going to do nothing/not very much to actually further that cause, and that'd be laughable, if Tibetans weren't getting beaten.

Do I want human rights for people in Tibet? For sure! Can it ever really happen if China is intent on doing what it will? Unlikely. Does GB go over to NI and beat up protestors and the like? Not that I'm aware of.

See, in Tibet, as far as I understand, the political violence was applied by the state; whereas in NI the political violence was applied by a group of terrorists, which the state had a duty to stop.

I fail to see the connection, TBH.

BTW our asymettric tricameral (read devolved) system actually promotes the ability of Wales, Scotland and Ireland to make decisions in their own internal affairs, to a degree. In some ways we are less 'oppressed' (ha, love how you use that word!) than the English, who have no English Assembly, and have internal decisions taken in Westminster by MPs from all over the Union, as pointed out by a previous poster.

It sounds like the political system you advocate would be something quite like anarchy - no authority of any one person over another - thats what you get when you reduce the size of political identities from states, regions, down to the smallest possible unit - the individual. The problem then is its pretty unworkable - read up on Thomas Hobbe's 'state of nature' - living in such a system would not be a pleasant experience, but life would be nasty, brutal, poor and short. And TBH, wasn't that the experience of Italian city-states and German principalities in the Holy Roman Empire, always warring over something with each other? They are smaller political units but it hardly equals progress.

[SHAM]

"All is good in the Empire, God save you" :)

[Havoc345]

When did I ever say free Tibet? TBH I laugh at the fact someone here spraypainted 'free Tibet' all over a Uni building but will not actually go and help advance the cause of this in any way - how sincere is that? 'Free Tibet' just became a rallying call for people who were going to do nothing/not very much to actually further that cause, and that'd be laughable, if Tibetans weren't getting beaten.

Do I want human rights for people in Tibet? For sure! Can it ever really happen if China is intent on doing what it will? Unlikely. Does GB go over to NI and beat up protestors and the like? Not that I'm aware of.

See, in Tibet, as far as I understand, the political violence was applied by the state; whereas in NI the political violence was applied by a group of terrorists, which the state had a duty to stop.

I fail to see the connection, TBH.

BTW our asymettric tricameral (read devolved) system actually promotes the ability of Wales, Scotland and Ireland to make decisions in their own internal affairs, to a degree. In some ways we are less 'oppressed' (ha, love how you use that word!) than the English, who have no English Assembly, and have internal decisions taken in Westminster by MPs from all over the Union, as pointed out by a previous poster.

It sounds like the political system you advocate would be something quite like anarchy - no authority of any one person over another - thats what you get when you reduce the size of political identities from states, regions, down to the smallest possible unit - the individual. The problem then is its pretty unworkable - read up on Thomas Hobbe's 'state of nature' - living in such a system would not be a pleasant experience, but life would be nasty, brutal, poor and short. And TBH, wasn't that the experience of Italian city-states and German principalities in the Holy Roman Empire, always warring over something with each other? They are smaller political units but it hardly equals progress.


Obviously their was a time when the Irish in N.I. were being oppressed just as badly as the Tibetans recently were, "Bloody Sunday" in '72 and come on how about the almost totally Ulster-Scot/English Royal Irish Constabulary a.k.a. the friendly 'ol "Black an Tans"who later became the Royal Ulster Constabulary.They didn't exactly treat Irish Catholics like brothers. The plantations and government sponsored enforcement of English as a first language and attempted wiping out of Irish culture. But come on let's be frank, Irish Catholics in N.I. considers themselves Irish first, support Sinn Fein and would rather be part of the RoI. Ulster-Scots/English are Protestants, consider themselves British and of course are Unionists. Sinn Fein's support in Northern Ireland is growing as I showed before. This most likely is indicative of a growing Irish Catholic pop. in N.I. and the polarization between the Irish Catholics and Ulster-Scot/English Protestants. I mean jesus the IRA and UDA only signed a ceasefire. Their supporters aren't exactly dancing in the streets together. So lemme just conclude with the fact this is going to happen whether the Brits in Ulster love it or don't http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/united-ireland-referendum-poll-lsquoby-2016rsquo-14101007.html

I'm not advocating Anarchy just what's right. Your city states metaphor is also not very good as I don't see how comparing the chaos of 16th Century Italy/Germany to the relative stability of 21st century N.I. is applicable. The city states didn't pan out because of the selfish Princes who were offing each other to expand their respective kingdoms. I don't see how Sinn Fein wanting a United Ireland is the same in your eyes. It's about heritage and the rights of a people to claim what is theirs. I'm not even Irish either I'm actually an Italian-American who justs see N.I. being as grave of an injustice as Darfur, Tibet or the situation with the Basques. Every people deserves a homeland I mean c'mon its spelled out in the U.N. charter.



They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken.
Bobby Sands (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/b/bobbysands197250.html)

[Drew21]

Well I guess I got what I expected by saying what I said about N.I. and Ireland. This is more or less a Conservative board and if I ask British members what they think of the break up of the United Kingdom of course I'm going to get Unionist responses. Well I guess I'll throw on a Celtic F.C. jersey and sob into a pint about Bobby Sands and Sinn Fein. But wait I'm not even Irish and any form as I've posted before so I'll just move on with my life. I just think it's funny though, I bring up a United Ireland and members here flip but I remember a few months back when posters here were screaming about how Tibet should be free. Tey talked of the oppression of the Chinese, posted videos of Chinese riot police beating Tibetan protesters and plenty changed their avatars to the Tibetan flag. But hey I guess history is only history and people only have a right to their homeland when it's not in your backyard. So boo when "they" oppress but "yay" when we do it.

If you wanna involve "soccer" in this debate then change it to a Man Utd shirt, it used to be Sunderland but then Roy Keane quit to walk his dog.

[Connaught Ranger]

Obviously their was a time when the Irish in N.I. were being oppressed just as badly as the Tibetans recently were, "Bloody Sunday" in '72

and come on how about the almost totally Ulster-Scot/English Royal Irish Constabulary a.k.a. the friendly 'ol "Black an Tans"who later became the Royal Ulster Constabulary.They didn't exactly treat Irish Catholics like brothers.

The plantations and government sponsored enforcement of English as a first language and attempted wiping out of Irish culture.

But come on let's be frank, Irish Catholics in N.I. considers themselves Irish first, support Sinn Fein and would rather be part of the RoI. Ulster-Scots/English are Protestants, consider themselves British and of course are Unionists.

Sinn Fein's support in Northern Ireland is growing as I showed before. This most likely is indicative of a growing Irish Catholic pop. in N.I. and the polarization between the Irish Catholics and Ulster-Scot/English Protestants.

I mean jesus the IRA and UDA only signed a ceasefire. Their supporters aren't exactly dancing in the streets together. So lemme just conclude with the fact this is going to happen whether the Brits in Ulster love it or don't http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/united-ireland-referendum-poll-lsquoby-2016rsquo-14101007.html

I'm not advocating Anarchy just what's right. Your city states metaphor is also not very good as I don't see how comparing the chaos of 16th Century Italy/Germany to the relative stability of 21st century N.I. is applicable. The city states didn't pan out because of the selfish Princes who were offing each other to expand their respective kingdoms.

I don't see how Sinn Fein wanting a United Ireland is the same in your eyes. It's about heritage and the rights of a people to claim what is theirs. I'm not even Irish either I'm actually an Italian-American who justs see N.I. being as grave of an injustice as Darfur, Tibet or the situation with the Basques. Every people deserves a homeland I mean c'mon its spelled out in the U.N. charter.

They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken.
Bobby Sands (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/b/bobbysands197250.html)rofl

You post such "I.R.A." propaganda s h i t e which is typical of a "plastic paddy" who knows absolutely nothing of Irish history, you must have spent a lot of time hanging around Irish bars when the local mafia wouldn't let you play at being a "wiseguy" :roll:

Italian! a country originally composed of poor kingdoms, full of poor people and now is one major poor country full of poor people, roflthat's what happens when you let the Catholic Church and Communist Unions rule.p-)

You try and compress over 200 hundred years of Irish-UK history and misinformation and link it all together leaving out massive chunks of relevant data.

1. Bloody Sunday:roll:, I.R.A. Sniper fires on British troops while there is a civil right demonstration taking place (same tactics as HAMAS used in Gaza recently) then Sinn Fein, jump up and shout the republican "political party with the slogan "The Ballot box or the Armalite!":roll:

2. the Irish were very happy to have Catholic Kings of Britain rule over them.

3. The fact that until the 1900 large parts of what is now the Republic of Ireland was never legally the property of the common working class, but the Estates of the Protestant and Catholic rich upper classes.

4. "Plantation's" :cantbeli:that going back to the time of Elizabeth the 1st, when rich families traded allegiances to whoever was in power as often as normal people change their underpants, "others took the soup" (changed their religion to keep their property and lifestyle, some families doing it more than once.

5. You totally disregard the fact that England was conquered by the Normans in 1066, they also invaded and ruled Ireland so perhaps we should give Ireland to the French! oooppps!!! but wait a minute the Normans originally descended from people Sweden, so maybe we should give Ireland to them?

The Royal Ulster Constabulary (R.U.C.) have no connection with the "Black & Tans" the R.U.C. was a simple name change from what was known as the Royal Irish Constabulary (R.I.C.) which was the name of the Police force in Ireland pre 1922 Treaty and the creation of Northern Ireland, United Kingdom. (The problem group in the R.U.C. were known as the "B" Specials.)

The "I. Ran. Aways". and "Sinn Fein" have never been supported by the majority of the Catholic people in the North or South of Ireland as witnessed in the recent elections, your nice colorful maps from Wiki bear no resemblance to real life on the ground.

Bobby Sands another misguided terrorist prisoner who starved himself to death and achieved nothing in the process.

The terrorist groups not only signed a ceasefire but a weapons surrender agreement then like the criminal scum they have always been went on to run the drug scene in both Northern Ireland and the Republic, it pays far better than being a terrorist:roll:. Maybe its their mafia style that attracts the Italian in yourofl

Before you go posting your "expert" opinion on another countries and what they should do, try going there and living amongst them for a while it might open your eyes and expand your brain. There's always room for another Italian fast food shop.


Originally Posted by Airman OCCS http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3864587#post3864587)
Well I guess I got what I expected by saying what I said about N.I. and Ireland. This is more or less a Conservative board and if I ask British members what they think of the break up of the United Kingdom of course I'm going to get Unionist responses. Well I guess I'll throw on a Celtic F.C. jersey and sob into a pint about Bobby Sands and Sinn Fein. But wait I'm not even Irish and any form as I've posted before so I'll just move on with my life.


You know what Bobby Sands phone number was? = 80 80 80
(for those who dont get it:- Eight Nothing, Eight Nothing, Eight Nothing!!

Connaught Ranger (Anglo-Irish citizen and 21 1/2 year veteran of the Irish Defence Forces, the only legitimate military Force that represents the Republic of Ireland.)woot

[tea drinker]

"All is good in the Empire, God save you" :)
I always though Rule Britania had a great rhythm. Waaaaaaat

As long as the citizens of UK have some kinship with each other and gain some benefit from their shared community it is all good.
If the Union is no longer serving the majority of it's subjects well, and there is no reason to expect it would improve, the impassionate decision would be to dissolve it, as long as this brought improvements.

According as credit crisis deepens one will see a rise in nationalist sentiments and racism. Not just in the empire - but everywhere. Our monkey brains when stressed have a natural reaction to protect the community at the expense of other communities.
This can be exploited by extremist voices - they have a particular appeal to our monkey brains.
Another favourite is immigration - nothing pisses off the monkey brain more than another cheeky monkey eating his nuts. (ehhh?)

The Northern Ireland thing is a difficult situation. (Ha - I said situation in NI context! http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=OZsP4kWdUwk )
Sure we have centuries of **** piled up - but we have to make the most of the what we have today. Finally the UK through John Major got a politician with a little humilty, vision and commonsense - himself and Blair were prepared to work to put an end to the conflict, and negotiate a settlement. As long as either side isn't offing the other I am happy. It's not perfect - but how many people live in an ideal situation (again!)
I agreed with the struggle for rights in NI - I just didn't think anyone should have been killed over it. I find it excessive that anyone would die in the movement of a border, or change of passport. I would say the same for any change in the Union. I would prefer the people of the Union get on with each than find out they were actually no better than the Nordies, through some internal strife.
People now have a chance to progress their lives, get jobs which they would have been excluded from before etc. Another problem is that the denial of the right to work, poor male role models etc has turned for some individuals to a divorce from the WANT to work.

[Britboy]

I was going to say, didn't we abolish the B Specials due to what they got up to, and alledged collusion with loyalist terrorist groups? Or was that a different police group?

As for Bloody Sunday, there was a massive enquiry after that, and no doubt heads did roll for it. How is this comparable to state-sanctioned political violence?

I know the IRA have gone largely into criminality now that the Troubles have calmed down, as CR alludes to with hid reference to drug dealing, messing up the lives of the people of NI. Do you really think this group of people should be given the opportunity to run NI? Do you really think we should give them as much as the time of day?

CR is obviously far better versed in the ins and outs of it, cheers for the top cover there! :)

CR, out of interest, are you with the ARW, or PDF? Have you ever conducted operations against the IRA in the border areas? Just wondering what IDFs stance on the IRA is.

Cheers
BB

Edited to add: Great post TD. Its all about looking forwards, as far as I'm concerned. And I agree entirely with equal rights for all.

I wouldn't worry particularly to NI about the people who lack the want to work, GB has that too, it is a consequence of the rise of Chav Nation.

[timetraveller]

Just to check:

You are aware NI was made part of the Irish Free State (pre-Eire) by us, and only a day after this voluntarily ceded from IFS to rejoin the UK, right? We made them part of the RoI and they wanted out and back to us ASAP.

And you are aware that when the British Army first deployed to NI in the 60s when the Troubles were beginning, it was to protect Catholics, not somehow to subdue them, right?

Just checking, as I overheard a neighbour of mine going on about how fvcking great she thinks the IRA are, despite her being English with only slight Irish roots, and had to re-edumacate her a little! Shame, she's pretty hawt, but can't bare people thinking murdering terrorist/criminals are somehow romantic freedom fighters...

Regards
BB

Noted and Posted ,, And very well Put !!.

[tea drinker]

Connaught Ranger - Come on, dont be too hard on the guy, he isn't even a "plastic Paddy". I know you have a personal vendetta for that point of view but you know well it is difficult even for people who LIVE in NI to understand what it's about.

Italy is economically poor but has contributed a vast amount in other ways to the world. Just like us p-)

[Havoc345]

rofl

You post such "I.R.A." propaganda s h i t e which is typical of a "plastic paddy" who knows absolutely nothing of Irish history, you must have spent a lot of time hanging around Irish bars when the local mafia wouldn't let you play at being a "wiseguy" :roll:

Italian! a country originally composed of poor kingdoms, full of poor people and now is one major poor country full of poor people, roflthat's what happens when you let the Catholic Church and Communist Unions rule.p-)

You try and compress over 200 hundred years of Irish-UK history and misinformation and link it all together leaving out massive chunks of relevant data.

1. Bloody Sunday:roll:, I.R.A. Sniper fires on British troops while there is a civil right demonstration taking place (same tactics as HAMAS used in Gaza recently) then Sinn Fein, jump up and shout the republican "political party with the slogan "The Ballot box or the Armalite!":roll:

2. the Irish were very happy to have Catholic Kings of Britain rule over them.

3. The fact that until the 1900 large parts of what is now the Republic of Ireland was never legally the property of the common working class, but the Estates of the Protestant and Catholic rich upper classes.

4. "Plantation's" :cantbeli:that going back to the time of Elizabeth the 1st, when rich families traded allegiances to whoever was in power as often as normal people change their underpants, "others took the soup" (changed their religion to keep their property and lifestyle, some families doing it more than once.

5. You totally disregard the fact that England was conquered by the Normans in 1066, they also invaded and ruled Ireland so perhaps we should give Ireland to the French! oooppps!!! but wait a minute the Normans originally descended from people Sweden, so maybe we should give Ireland to them?

The Royal Ulster Constabulary (R.U.C.) have no connection with the "Black & Tans" the R.U.C. was a simple name change from what was known as the Royal Irish Constabulary (R.I.C.) which was the name of the Police force in Ireland pre 1922 Treaty and the creation of Northern Ireland, United Kingdom. (The problem group in the R.U.C. were known as the "B" Specials.)

The "I. Ran. Aways". and "Sinn Fein" have never been supported by the majority of the Catholic people in the North or South of Ireland as witnessed in the recent elections, your nice colorful maps from Wiki bear no resemblance to real life on the ground.

Bobby Sands another misguided terrorist prisoner who starved himself to death and achieved nothing in the process.

The terrorist groups not only signed a ceasefire but a weapons surrender agreement then like the criminal scum they have always been went on to run the drug scene in both Northern Ireland and the Republic, it pays far better than being a terrorist:roll:. Maybe its their mafia style that attracts the Italian in yourofl

Before you go posting your "expert" opinion on another countries and what they should do, try going there and living amongst them for a while it might open your eyes and expand your brain. There's always room for another Italian fast food shop.



You know what Bobby Sands phone number was? = 80 80 80
(for those who dont get it:- Eight Nothing, Eight Nothing, Eight Nothing!!

Connaught Ranger (Anglo-Irish citizen and 21 1/2 year veteran of the Irish Defence Forces, the only legitimate military Force that represents the Republic of Ireland.)woot

1. Bull****

2. English Catholics assimilated into Irish culture because of a shared Catholic identity

3. Ireland is the ancestral homeland of the Irish. Regardless of what some fat English Protestant lords decreed on paper.

4. The plantations were horrible institutions and thats all I'm gonna say.

5. I understand that William the Conqueror came and conquered with his Franco-Viking pals in 1066.

The R.U.C. was a hit squad/Catholic beating squad for Unionist Protestants. Sinn Fein has plenty of support in RoI in NoI and anyone who doesn't believe that needs to open their eyes.

And really your going to attack my heritage. Have some tact for gods sake your a grown man. It it wasn't for the IRA Ireland would still be part of the Union. The IRA of 1921 were true heros and their PIRA grandsons have of course been questionable in their tactics but oppressed people have been known to do drastic things.

BTW Bobby Sands was a true hero, he sacrificed himself for his people. His death might not have united the two Irelands yet, but someday hopefully what he died for will happen..........in 2016. To me he's in the same category as MLK or Malcolm X, he gave a voice to a people who were seen as second class citizens in Britain and the U.S.

Finally your Anglo-Irish, your a descendant of the Protestant Ascendancy so of your course your a Unionist. For someone who served in the Irish Defence Force you seem extremely envious of Britain. Maybe you could have have defended your actual homeland by serving in the British Army. I guess though you were too busy on training exercises in the Irish countryside.

[SHAM]

1. Bull****

2. English Catholics assimilated into Irish culture because of a shared Catholic identity

3. Ireland is the ancestral homeland of the Irish. Regardless of what some fat English Protestant lords decreed on paper.

4. The plantations were horrible institutions and thats all I'm gonna say.

5. I understand that William the Conqueror came and conquered with his Franco-Viking pals in 1066.

The R.U.C. was a hit squad/Catholic beating squad for Unionist Protestants. Sinn Fein has plenty of support in RoI in NoI and anyone who doesn't believe that needs to open their eyes.

And really your going to attack my heritage. Have some tact for gods sake your a grown man. It it wasn't for the IRA Ireland would still be part of the Union. The IRA of 1921 were true heros and their PIRA grandsons have of course been questionable in their tactics but oppressed people have been known to do drastic things.

BTW Bobby Sands was a true hero, he sacrificed himself for his people. His death might not have united the two Irelands yet, but someday hopefully what he died for will happen..........in 2016. To me he's in the same category as MLK or Malcolm X, he gave a voice to a people who were seen as second class citizens in Britain and the U.S.

Finally your Anglo-Irish, your a descendant of the Protestant Ascendancy so of your course your a Unionist. For someone who served in the Irish Defence Force you seem extremely envious of Britain. Maybe you could have have defended your actual homeland by serving in the British Army. I guess though you were too busy on training exercises in the Irish countryside.

Kid STFU.
You have been told by a long list of Irish members of the forum at this stage to stop talking out your arse about stuff you read about in a book.
Today the situation is, the Irish people have no interest in taking northern ireland back or joining with northern ireland.
We had a constititional referendum where people voted freely to drop our constitunional claim on the north, 96% of those who voted voted in favour.
The End.

If you want to further your research, come and live amongst us, other wise STFU.

[Britboy]

1. Bull****

2. English Catholics assimilated into Irish culture because of a shared Catholic identity

3. Ireland is the ancestral homeland of the Irish. Regardless of what some fat English Protestant lords decreed on paper.

4. The plantations were horrible institutions and thats all I'm gonna say.

5. I understand that William the Conqueror came and conquered with his Franco-Viking pals in 1066.

The R.U.C. was a hit squad/Catholic beating squad for Unionist Protestants. Sinn Fein has plenty of support in RoI in NoI and anyone who doesn't believe that needs to open their eyes.

And really your going to attack my heritage. Have some tact for gods sake your a grown man. It it wasn't for the IRA Ireland would still be part of the Union. The IRA of 1921 were true heros and their PIRA grandsons have of course been questionable in their tactics but oppressed people have been known to do drastic things.

BTW Bobby Sands was a true hero, he sacrificed himself for his people. His death might not have united the two Irelands yet, but someday hopefully what he died for will happen..........in 2016. To me he's in the same category as MLK or Malcolm X, he gave a voice to a people who were seen as second class citizens in Britain and the U.S.

Finally your Anglo-Irish, your a descendant of the Protestant Ascendancy so of your course your a Unionist. For someone who served in the Irish Defence Force you seem extremely envious of Britain. Maybe you could have have defended your actual homeland by serving in the British Army. I guess though you were too busy on training exercises in the Irish countryside.

Attacking the IDF? You even aware of what they do in terms of peace enforcement and crisis management?

I especially love your answers to 1, 3 and 4, for 1, where you there? As for 3, the term 'fat' sums it up for me, you are indoctrinated to see things emotively. For 4 you refuse to acknowledge CRs assertion that it was seriously back in the day, before the USA existed and drove West. You refuse to acknowledge its history.

Calling the RUC a 'hit squad', what? You do understand it was a police service, right?

Airman, you have no personal interest in this subject, you refuse to refute others claims, you sound like a stuck tape, and seem to only want to stir things up - notice there are no Northern or Southern Irish on here calling for what you call for. You refuse to acknowledge that there are massive intertwinings between English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish, both N and S, and seem to see things in strict 'black and white' clear delineations which simply do not exist! Nothing is that clean-cut a situation.

Why don't you do one and bore off, theres a good chap?

[cbreedon]

BTW Bobby Sands was a true hero, he sacrificed himself for his people. His death might not have united the two Irelands yet, but someday hopefully what he died for will happen..........in 2016.

What happens in 2016?

[Connaught Ranger]

1. Bull****

2. English Catholics assimilated into Irish culture because of a shared Catholic identity:roll:

3. Ireland is the ancestral homeland of the Irish. Regardless of what some fat English Protestant lords decreed on paper:roll:.

4. The plantations were horrible institutions and thats all I'm gonna say.:roll:

5. I understand that William the Conqueror came and conquered with his Franco-Viking pals in 1066.

The R.U.C. was a hit squad/Catholic beating squad for Unionist Protestants. Sinn Fein has plenty of support in RoI in NoI and anyone who doesn't believe that needs to open their eyes.:roll:

And really your going to attack my heritage. Have some tact for gods sake your a grown man. It it wasn't for the IRA Ireland would still be part of the Union. The IRA of 1921 were true heros and their PIRA grandsons have of course been questionable in their tactics but oppressed people have been known to do drastic things. :roll:

BTW Bobby Sands was a true hero,:roll: he sacrificed himself for his people. His death might not have united the two Irelands yet, but someday hopefully what he died for will happenrofl..........in 2016. To me he's in the same category as MLK or Malcolm X, he gave a voice to a people who were seen as second class citizens in Britain and the U.S.

Finally your Anglo-Irish, your a descendant of the Protestant Ascendancy so of your course your a Unionist. For someone who served in the Irish Defence Force you seem extremely envious of Britain. Maybe you could have have defended your actual homeland by serving in the British Army. I guess though you were too busy on training exercises in the Irish countryside.rofl

You really are full of s h i t e and your posts proves you know absolutely nothing about Ireland, its people, its history or its connections to Scotland, Wales, and England.

There is no connection to the men of the Old I.R.A. and that bunch of murdering bastards who hi-jacked their name for the sake of trying to legitimize the terrorist atrocities and crimes they carried out over the years,

They were neither sanctioned by the elected Government of the Republic of Ireland or the majority of the Irish people if so they would have managed to achieve their aims.

The only thing that will result from Sinn Fein getting power in Ireland will be another Civil War as was fought in 1923.

Seeing you have reserved the right to comment on what is right and wrong with the Anglo-Irish nationalities and their heritage, I reserve the right to comment on your so called American-Italian heritage.

My Anglo-Irish heritage comes from the fact that my father was an Irish Catholic migrant worker from the Republic, working in England, who met and married my Mother an Englishwoman (with no connections in her family to Ireland, Scotland, or Wales, in fact my Mothers family name is recorded in the Doomsday book as being residents of the village near Nottingham where she was born), in 1968.

I set foot in Ireland for the first time at the age of 10, when my father decided to return to live in the Republic. At the age of 17 I joined the Irish Defence Force along with my twin brother.

So I do not know where you get your Unionist Bull s h i t e from.:roll: If I was so envious of Britain as you seem to think then I would have gone off to live there as many Irish did over the years (and still do).

Most of my service in the Irish Defence Forces was spent on the Border between 1976 - 1997, where I and my comrades spent a lot of time along with the Gardai, spoiling any chance the boys had from playing "freedom Fighters":roll: we also remember the two Irish policemen who were cold bloodiedly shot dead by I.R.A. terrorist's when liberating money from an Irish Post Office for their cause.:roll:

We also have cause to remember the Irish soldier murdered by the I.R.A. during the kidnapping of Mr.Don Tidey a U.S. businessman.

Connaught Ranger.

[LordKitchener]

Airman - you telling the Protestants to move out of Northern Ireland is like someone telling you to vacate your New Jersey pizza parlour and get back on the boat to Italy, leaving the Native Americans to take back 'their' land.

[Havoc345]

Airman - you telling the Protestants to move out of Northern Ireland is like someone telling you to vacate your New Jersey pizza parlour and get back on the boat to Italy, leaving the Native Americans to take back 'their' land.

The Protestant Ulster-Scots and English should remain in Ireland if the two unite. I just said if they are enraged and ready to start a civil war about the uniting of the two Irelands then they of course should leave.

I am not from New Jersey and I'd rather you call me a dago than say that. Pizza Parlour yeah, well go back to your fish and chips stand you fcking Reginald, better yet go play grab ass up in the bleachers while you watch boys in shorts play that cute little game you guys call soccer.

[MichaelF]

But wutever moving on, the Ulster-Scots and English of Northern Ireland are the descendants of the Lords and laborers who ran the Plantation of Ulster, they virtually enslaved the indigenous Irish Catholics and oppressed them to the point that they almost lost their very own cultural identity. What's their legimitate reason for still being their. "Well since you signed the treaty in 1921 and became the Free State were gonna become part of Great Britain so you can't kick us out, otherwise you'll have King George on your arse." Believe me if the Irish had the means to drive the Protestant Ulster-Scots and English out of N.I. after the War of Independence they would have.

So: Ethnic cleansing is OK?

As Muttbutt pointed out, the Plantation (never mind the Normans) was a looooooong time ago. The "get off our land" statute of limitations expired a couple centuries ago.

[Britboy]

The Protestant Ulster-Scots and English should remain in Ireland if the two unite. I just said if they are enraged and ready to start a civil war about the uniting of the two Irelands then they of course should leave.

I am not from New Jersey and I'd rather you call me a dago than say that. Pizza Parlour yeah, well go back to your fish and chips stand you fcking Reginald, better yet go play grab ass up in the bleachers while you watch boys in shorts play that cute little game you guys call soccer.

What the fvck is that even supposed to mean?

You come in here pontificating on something you know nothing about, something a lot of people here feel rather strongly about, something that has caused the deaths of a lot of innocent people; people try to set you straight, you persist, people try to set you straight in a more firm (stern?) manner, you come out with some sh1t about fish and chips and footballers arses?

Do one, you fvcking wet sh1t. A plague of syphilis on you and o'er your lands.

[Moriarti]

Ethnic cleansing is good if you write the history books - ask the US Government from the Louisiana Purchase until...hell...now. Are you saying the Native Americans don't have a grievance with the way they were treated? The Indian wars were ultimately the most successful counterinsurgency effort in the history of warfare.

[oldsoak]

Whens the interval so I can go and get some popcorn ?

[MichaelF]

Ethnic cleansing is good if you write the history books - ask the US Government from the Louisiana Purchase until...hell...now.

Ah, but current thinking is that we don't do that stuff any more. Especially in the post-WWII period. The idea being that you don't have any right to alienate law-abiding citizens from their citizenship or property.
Also, "ownership" is now more-or-less fixed, for the reason that two wrongs don't make a right, so telling 700,000 Northern Irish to get lost because their ancestors of 300 years ago were from Scotland is not going to fix anything. Neither is giving large swathes of North America to a group of people simply because their ancestors were screwed over.


Are you saying the Native Americans don't have a grievance with the way they were treated?

At this point, not really.
They have a grievance in regards to current conditions on Reservation areas, inasmuch as any Citizen would (iow, they are without employment or educational opportunities and deserve help from the government, as opposed to handouts or "historical reparations").
But "my great-grandad got screwed by the White Man, now give me X"? No.
Historical (as in "happened to no one currently living") conflicts occurred and they lost. It happens. I should be a minor aristocratic land magnate in Prussia with many peasants to exploit, but WWI and WWII occurred, and that's not part of the picture any more.

The Indian wars were ultimately the most successful counterinsurgency effort in the history of warfare.

And were mostly incidental ("Bad Indians, bangbang!"), in that we weren't fighting "wars" (though the Indians were, on occasion) but small actions (and some medium sized ones) whenever the Indians decided not to do exactly what we said to do (or whenever we decided to chance the deal overnight). That's why the "Indian War" period ran into the 1890s. If we were conducting actual military campaigns (vice police* and control actions), they'd have been dealt with NLT 1870-75.

Also, they aren't germane to the discussion.



*-yes, with frequent massacres. That was how military gendermeries operated back then (especially when the CO is 300 miles away and you've never met).

[Moriarti]

Fair - all good points- However -
I still say that an entire people are STILL stuck in some pretty horrid conditions in some of the most horrible lands in the US. AND although it took a while the insurgency WAS effectively defeated.

[MichaelF]

I still say that an entire people are STILL stuck in some pretty horrid conditions in some of the most horrible lands in the US.

No argument there. The lack of advancement opportunities must be addressed (and, to an extent, is being addressed....slowly). Either that or the Reservations should be abolished (never, never, never......., never happen) and the populations mainstreamed (never happen).

[California Joe]

Why can't you people get along better like those nice Serbs and Bosnians.

[Moriarti]

I like they way they hate each other. Classic grudge holding:)

[California Joe]

Hey, I have a few Tommy Makem and the Clancy Brothers records around here somewhere...

But the bold sun of freedom
grew darker at dusk
And it set by the slain's red wave
and poor Wexford stripped naked
hung high on a cross
with her heart pierced by traitors and slaves
Glory Ohhhh
Glory Ohhhh
to her bold sons who've died
for the cause of long downtrodden man
Glory Ohhh to Mt Linsfords own darlin' and pride
dauntless Kelly, the boy from Kilarn

That's from memory, it's probably wrong and I really have no idea what it's about but I always liked the song. heh.

[nemowork]

Who was polled for this breakup thing? the last time i was even polled for a local government in the region we slapped T Blair and the North East assembly down so hard John Prestcott was seeing stars for the rest of the year! I dont want a new border going through my town, we had a few millenia of borders, reavers, black mailers and free lancers, i can walk out my front door and pass over the remains of 5,000 of Robert the Bruces best men and i dont want even a hint of that back thank you very much.

[Connaught Ranger]

What happens in 2016?

Bobby Sands gets resurrected and walks among us again:roll:
only by then he will be known as Boney Sands
rofl rofl rofl

[welshmann]

Bobby Sands gets resurrected and walks among us again:roll:
only by then he will be known as Boney Sands
rofl rofl rofl

dont start airman off again,hes been quiet for over 12 hours

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Obviously their was a time when the Irish in N.I. were being oppressed just as badly as the Tibetans recently were,

LOL

Oh rly???????roflroflroflroflroflroflroflroflroflroflroflroflrofl

Airhead you'd better be careful I think the Feds take a dim view of people in your country spreading terrorist propaganda these days ;-)

[Britishhawk]

Scotland has one of the biggest oil reserves in Europe, if they go independant it means we have to buy it off them instead :o

[DPM_Sheep]

The act of Union was one of the worst things to ever happen the Island of Ireland and more so than any event in Irish history changed the relationship between Ireland and Britain.
Before this period, Ireland had a status, that Canada, Australia and New Zealand enjoy today, national independence but with shared loyality to the British Crown.


Well as to the Act of Union, that came about as a direct response to Fitzgerald and the United Irishmen's revolt (who were mainly protestants) and was basically the first round in what became the Nationalist Vs Republican grudge match we all know and love.



I don't support any terrorist organisation in this Island, however I do realise why the conflict in Northern Ireland started. Northern Ireland's ruling Government from 1922-1998 had little regard for the Catholic population,they were stuck as second class citizens in this a "Protestant state for a Protestant people" as then quoted by the prime minister for Northern Ireland at the time.

I won't insult anyone's intelligence by denying gerrymandering didn't happen but the Catholic vs Protestant angle of the modern troubles was always at it's heart a smoke screen for a turf war between a bunch of marxist thugs and mobsters and a bunch of Nationalist thugs and mobsters.... and still is, Good Friday agreement or not.

[Connaught Ranger]

Connaught Ranger just because you are Irish doesn't mean you speak for everbody, the same way as I don't speak for every Irish person. However I know this much Irish people North and South voted for peace during the Good Friday agreement of 1998 because we knew that if we hadn't given up claims to Northern Ireland the conflict probably would have endured to this day and beyond. That doesn't mean that Irish people have asserted themselves from the Idea that this Island should one day be a Nation again, a state shared by two peoples for the one common good.

"History is written by the victors"

I do not, or never have consider myself to be Irish, but Anglo-Irish, please take time to read the thread carefully before commenting.

And, I speak for myself against a dill who presumes to tell us how great the P.I.R.A. / N.T.R.I.R.A. / I.N.L.A. part-time terrorist / full-time drug dealers organizations were for Ireland, especially from one who has never been there, or as any real idea about what he is posting, notice he carefully avoids mentioning the facts about the R.A.'s "punishment squads" mafia style goons who knee-capped* or curb-stoned* people for joy-riding, or other anti-social behavior, such as slagging off the I Ran Aways, or the kidnapping, torture, and disposel of civilians including women, in unmarked graves peceived to have been informers, a large number of innocent people wrongly accused and killed (admited by the I.R.A. themselves).

The protection rackets, illegal bars, prostitution ran by the terorists, including Bank robbery's / Kidnappings in the Republic, to finance their lifestyle all in the name of "Freedom-fighters":roll:

*knee-capping = being shot in the knee-caps, or repeat offenders the elbows, when it was not convinient to use a gun a Black and Decker drill was used.

* curb-stoning = concrete blocks or curb stones in beton were dropped from a height onto the leg, shin bones, arms or hands of offenders.

Connaught Ranger.

[MaverickCowboy]

FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/images/braverheartfreedom.jpeg

[damagejackal]

I love when teenaged Americans weigh in on Ireland.

Yeah Americans like to think Ireland is a very very important an interesting country ...its really not, just ask any self respecting Englishman:)

[Connaught Ranger]

Yeah Americans like to think Ireland is a very very important an interesting country ...its really not, just ask any self respecting Englishman:)

Englishmen are very few and far between nowadays, a common misconception is that if you are born in the boundaries of England, you are English, but many would do to check the family tree for any family marital connections to the Scots, Welsh, and Irish for starters in preceding generations, then add in any marital connections to people from the former British Commonwealth, or dare I suggest "common" immigrants from Europe, etc..etc..

This post is not posted with the intention of flaming but to show its a really complicated mix when it concerns ones ancestral background and family tree.

Connaught Ranger:)

[DPM_Sheep]

Englishmen are very few and far between nowadays, a common misconception is that if you are born in the boundaries of England, you are English, but many would do to check the family tree for any family marital connections to the Scots, Welsh, and Irish for starters in preceding generations, then add in any marital connections to people from the former British Commonwealth, or dare I suggest "common" immigrants from Europe, etc..etc..

This post is not posted with the intention of flaming but to show its a really complicated mix when it concerns ones ancestral background and family tree.

Connaught Ranger:)


*Raises hand* Irish grandmother on mother's side, Gibraltan great grandfather via mother again. Lowlander Grandmother on fathers side. English grandfather via father but his great x 3 grandfather was dutch.

Pretty fecking pickle I'd be in if this ****e was truly important. :)

[Drew21]

The Native Americans have been threatening to separate from the United States for a long time, only thing that has stopped them is the fear that they might get Sioux(ed)

[Old_Boy_Steve]

All of this argument can easily be seen in the Army, even at Regimental level there is some fierce competition. It is within human nature to compete and this stems from our tribal instincts. This can be seen with different nationalities referring to one and other as "Taff", "Jock", "Paddy" and a new one that I came across recently for my lot, "F.E.B.". However all of that goes out the window as soon as the **** hits the fan and rounds are going down. So if the British Army (and RN and RAF of course) can work so well as a single entity then why couldn't the United Kingdom? The fact is that it can and has and very much will do so.

That will do for the speeches today.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Now that the so-called 'Northern Arc of Prosperity' that Alex Salmond was on about has gone down the sh1tter I wonder how much support there really is for Scottish Independence. I am guessing not much and I suspect it was always rather lower than Salmond's high flown rhetoric seemed to imply (as the Scots Nats are a minority government and only got in by 1 seat -even before the current economic debacle).

Seeing as Alex Salmond is a former bank economist (as he always liked to remind us) you would have thought he would have seen the writing on the wall for his 'Northern Arc of Prosperity' but apparently not and his former career no longer seems to be mentioned much. I wonder why.Support for independence goes up and down like a whores knickers but the notion of of independece is not going away anytime soon. The SNP are winning in the popularity stakes at the moment which not really hard given the alternatives in Scotland and Nationalism is always popular in harsh economic times.

[wotsnext]

I'd love to see it one day as an Independent nation.
As an Englishman, So would I.........:)

[vor033]

Scotland has one of the biggest oil reserves in Europe, if they go independant it means we have to buy it off them instead :o

Sorry mate, but Scotland doesn’t have one of the biggest oil reserves in Europe at all ! If you follow the international maritime border (and not the SNP version :roll:) you will see that a large proportion of that oil is in English waters ! Also another large part of this oil is in Shetland waters, which is a group if islands and people that DON’T think of themselves as Scottish and would probably declare independence if Scotland went independent.


Its always a problem in a country as old as ours (both the UK as a whole and the UK ) that if anyone part tries to become independent there are huge problems about what does or doesn’t belong to one of the various nations in it

I for one would hate to try and sort it out :-( and still think we are better off together than apart :)

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Sorry mate, but Scotland doesn’t have one of the biggest oil reserves in Europe at all ! If you follow the international maritime border (and not the SNP version :roll:) you will see that a large proportion of that oil is in English waters ! Also another large part of this oil is in Shetland waters, which is a group if islands and people that DON’T think of themselves as Scottish and would probably declare independence if Scotland went independent.


Its always a problem in a country as old as ours (both the UK as a whole and the UK ) that if anyone part tries to become independent there are huge problems about what does or doesn’t belong to one of the various nations in it

I for one would hate to try and sort it out :-( and still think we are better off together than apart :)The international maritime border that you speak of is really a European border as Scotland is not regarded as a nation apart. As for Shetland being something other than Scottish thats a notion of a small group of Shetlanders in the 1970's led by Joe Grimmond but the ties a closer than ever. I don't see independence happening anytime soon and Scotland is not in any way ready to go it alone just yet.

[ghostdog]

....Italian! a country originally composed of poor kingdoms, full of poor people and now is one major poor country full of poor people, that's what happens when you let the Catholic Church and Communist Unions rule.....

roflroflroflroflroflroflroflrofl



...Italy is economically poor but has contributed a vast amount in other ways to the world. Just like us p-)

roflroflroflroflroflroflroflrofl



oh ppl i have no words ,you're better than discovery channel every day i come here and read a new version of your personal reality roflrofl you really made my day !!


http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/5408/officialgpdlist2008bqm6.jpg

So if we are poor at the 7th position ,what about the rest of the world below us rofl

[Blackcatnursery]

Most English would like to see the back of the Scottish because they are getting huge amounts of money from the English tax payers. They have the benefits of free this and free that. If they had to raise their own taxes then I don't think their puppet (muppet) parliament in their legoland building would be so free with the money.
To be honest I would like to get rid of Wales and Scotland and let them go back to the third world nations they are. They don't want to be associated with us (England) then they can get lost. If they had gone sooner then we would not have got Gordon Clown as a Prime Minister.

[Connaught Ranger]

Most English would like to see the back of the Scottish because they are getting huge amounts of money from the English tax payers. They have the benefits of free this and free that. If they had to raise their own taxes then I don't think their puppet (muppet) parliament in their legoland building would be so free with the money.
To be honest I would like to get rid of Wales and Scotland and let them go back to the third world nations they are. They don't want to be associated with us (England) then they can get lost. If they had gone sooner then we would not have got Gordon Clown as a Prime Minister.

I think somebody is going to have a very short stay here:roll:

[RAFREGT.]

1. Most English would like to see the back of the Scottish because they are getting huge amounts of money from the English tax payers. They have the benefits of free this and free that. If they had to raise their own taxes then I don't think their puppet (muppet) parliament in their legoland building would be so free with the money.
To be honest I would like to get rid of Wales and Scotland and let them go back to the third world nations they are. They don't want to be associated with us (England) then they can get lost.



2. If they had gone sooner then we would not have got Gordon Clown as a Prime Minister.


1. There is so much wrong with this i don't know where to start!
2. yea, your right, Blair was MUCH better :roll:

your a unionist then? can i ask,are you serving in HM forces ? How old are you really?

[Connaught Ranger]

1. There is so much wrong with this i don't know where to start!
2. yea, your right, Blair was MUCH better :roll:

your a unionist then? can i ask,are you serving in HM forces ? How old are you really?

I think we have a liddle kid on day leave from the nursery, looking for his black catrofl

[Lov3ll]

1. There is so much wrong with this i don't know where to start!
2. yea, your right, Blair was MUCH better :roll:

your a unionist then? can i ask,are you serving in HM forces ? How old are you really?

Blair was also Scottish.*

[RAFREGT.]

Blair was also Scottish.*

oh bollocks!:oops:
"Blair was born at the Queen Mary Maternity Home in Edinburgh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh), Scotland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland) on 6 May 1953, the second son of Leo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Blair_(senior)) and Hazel Blair (née Corscadden). Leo Blair, the illegitimate son of two English actors, had been adopted by a Glasgow shipyard worker named James Blair "

see...its the enlish fault! good kind hearted glaswegian adopting his dad!



right....break out the chainsaws...time to seperate Scotland from the rest of you whingbags!p-)

[RAFREGT.]

Most English would like to see the back of the Scottish because they are getting huge amounts of money from the English tax payers. They have the benefits of free this and free that. If they had to raise their own taxes then I don't think their puppet (muppet) parliament in their legoland building would be so free with the money.
To be honest I would like to get rid of Wales and Scotland and let them go back to the third world nations they are. They don't want to be associated with us (England) then they can get lost. .


On a serious note, don't believe the bollocks! I know of 2 folk up here that are up for independance, everyone else is quite happy with the current state!
When people start to rant about "sod em!" and "let em go!" it just plays into the hand of people like that wee toad Salmond...ignore him, he's a ****! lol

[Drew21]

Most English would like to see the back of the Scottish because they are getting huge amounts of money from the English tax payers. They have the benefits of free this and free that. If they had to raise their own taxes then I don't think their puppet (muppet) parliament in their legoland building would be so free with the money.
To be honest I would like to get rid of Wales and Scotland and let them go back to the third world nations they are. They don't want to be associated with us (England) then they can get lost. If they had gone sooner then we would not have got Gordon Clown as a Prime Minister.

If you bothered to read the initial post you would see that:

"A clear majority of people in both England and Scotland are in favour of full independence for Scotland, an ICM opinion poll for The Sunday Telegraph has found. Independence is backed by 52 per cent of Scots while an astonishing 59 per cent of English voters want Scotland to go it alone"

Its a two way street sunshine, seems the people that were polled from England are as keen as those that were polled from Scotland.
Also proof that those that were polled should really of stayed at home and watched Jeremy Kyle

[Connaught Ranger]

Just how many people were initially poled?

52% of how many Scots, 10, 50, 100, Higher?

59% of how many English, 10, 50, 100, Higher?

My opinion is these polls mean "Jack Straw"

and certainly cannot be used to judge the will of the people,

no matter what part of the U.K. they belong.

Connaught Ranger.

[Blackcatnursery]

RAFREGT
1. Its an opinion based on many years of paying huge amounts of UK tax
2. Blair was on a par with Brown but at least he could see a depression coming and got out early, the only clever thing he did
3. Left school a long long time ago, got a degree in economics but during that time was in the territorials and played a lot of rugby. Then spent 10 years in UK military as a soldier(because I loved it, and guns), went to the Falklands spent time in NI, Germany, NI, Scotland, NI (just missed Gulf War 1). Left the army with a specialist trade and went into private industry. Now own a plant nursery and another business.
Father went all the way through WWII, he signed up as he could see the war coming and was a Sargent Major. France with BEF, N Africa, Italy, Germany, saw a lot of action. He was proud to be English and so am I.

Connaught Ranger
Nursery cat is a nasty piece of work and I don't mess with it
PS I am half Scottish so I might get deported!!!!
PPS I am trying not to get banned as I love this site, particularly the pictures

[RAFREGT.]

"a clear majority of people in both england and scotland are in favour of full independence for scotland, an icm opinion poll for the sunday telegraph has found. Independence is backed by 52 per cent of scots while an astonishing 59 per cent of english voters want scotland to go it alone"




BS!..........


RAFREGT
1. Its an opinion based on many years of paying huge amounts of UK tax
2. Blair was on a par with Brown but at least he could see a depression coming and got out early, the only clever thing he did
3. Left school a long long time ago, got a degree in economics but during that time was in the territorials and played a lot of rugby. Then spent 10 years in UK military as a soldier(because I loved it, and guns), went to the Falklands spent time in NI, Germany, NI, Scotland, NI (just missed Gulf War 1). Left the army with a specialist trade and went into private industry. Now own a plant nursery and another business.
Father went all the way through WWII, he signed up as he could see the war coming and was a Sargent Major. France with BEF, N Africa, Italy, Germany, saw a lot of action. He was proud to be English and so am I.

Connaught Ranger
Nursery cat is a nasty piece of work and I don't mess with it
PS I am half Scottish so I might get deported!!!!
PPS I am trying not to get banned as I love this site, particularly the pictures

ok, didn't need your family history mate!p-) oh...and i too, just like all the other Scots (well, 99%) I pay tax to Westminster too!
My point is, every so often this auld enemy/independence thing is wheeled out....from a Scottish point of view, DON'T believe it! So many of my English mates fall for it and form opinions that are not based on facts from these flawed surveys, which perpetuates the myth! lets all be UNITED in this Kingdom...if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Drew21]

Connaught Ranger,
Couldn’t agree with you more about these polls, the most interesting thing about this whole thread is the fact that the issue was first raised by an American rather than a Brit, this is by no means a slur on Airman OCCS. What I’m trying to say is that these polls seem to be ten a penny, particularly when either a senior English, or Scottish MP wants to score some cheap points; I think the majority of people in the UK are more concerned with the current economic crisis rather than the issue of independence. The publication date of the article was 2006, any politician who was stupid enough to raise the issue now would be committing political suicide.
IMHO.

[RAFREGT.]

true Drew21...stronger together, than apart.

[Blackcatnursery]

[quote=RAFREGT
ok, didn't need your family history mate!p-) oh...and i too, just like all the other Scots (well, 99%) I pay tax to Westminster too!
My point is, every so often this auld enemy/independence thing is wheeled out....from a Scottish point of view, DON'T believe it! So many of my English mates fall for it and form opinions that are not based on facts from these flawed surveys, which perpetuates the myth! lets all be UNITED in this Kingdom...if it ain't broke, don't fix it.[/quote]

I go to North Scotland to see my relatives as often as I can and I cannot believe how things have changed over the past 20 years. If you talk with an English accent then they can be damn right rude in Scottish to your face not realising that you understand everything they are saying. There is a tide of anti English feeling stoked by the SNP. I would in all honesty hate to see Britain split up we would all lose.

[Blackcatnursery]

I think somebody is going to have a very short stay here:roll:
Sorry CR I probably could have put it better and have the points to prove it.
I have just been doing my tax return all day and I am seriously fed up with UK PLC and business is not what it was 12 months ago, customer have disappeared but Gordon still needs his kilo and a half of flesh

[MichaelF]

What a lot of people seem to miss is that Scotland (or Wales, or NI) is no closer to "Independance" than it was in 1950.

The existence of a Scottish Parliament is not quite the magic bullet many seem to think. It has absolutely zero authority or power to affect anything regarding the change of Constitutional matters. The very act (Scotland Act 1998) that created the Scottish Parliament also upholds the absolute sovereignty of Westminster (iow, Westminster > Holryood) and reserves all constitutional* matters to Westminster.

So, referendum** or not, Holyrood is not a path to Independance. Everything important gets decided in Westminster.


*-up to, and including, dismissing and dissolving the lower assemblies, by amending the Scotland Act.

**-the very proposal of which shows either how ignorant the SNP leadership (and voting base) are, or how shallow they are (pandering to get votes, regardless of whether they can do what they promise).

[Connaught Ranger]

RAFREGT
1. Its an opinion based on many years of paying huge amounts of UK tax
2. Blair was on a par with Brown but at least he could see a depression coming and got out early, the only clever thing he did
3. Left school a long long time ago, got a degree in economics but during that time was in the territorials and played a lot of rugby. Then spent 10 years in UK military as a soldier(because I loved it, and guns), went to the Falklands spent time in NI, Germany, NI, Scotland, NI (just missed Gulf War 1). Left the army with a specialist trade and went into private industry. Now own a plant nursery and another business.
Father went all the way through WWII, he signed up as he could see the war coming and was a Sargent Major. France with BEF, N Africa, Italy, Germany, saw a lot of action. He was proud to be English and so am I.

Connaught Ranger
Nursery cat is a nasty piece of work and I don't mess with it
PS I am half Scottish so I might get deported!!!!
PPS I am trying not to get banned as I love this site, particularly the pictures

Well then why make infantile comments about Scotland (if you are part one yourself):roll: and Wales, (the reference to them being like Third World countries is an utter lie, and highly insulting to people who live there.

So you had to pay tax, we have all been there and done that, its part of life.

Again with your Scottish heritage acknowledged you cant be English only British.

Connaught Ranger.:)

[Connaught Ranger]

Sorry CR I probably could have put it better and have the points to prove it.
I have just been doing my tax return all day and I am seriously fed up with UK PLC and business is not what it was 12 months ago, customer have disappeared but Gordon still needs his kilo and a half of flesh

Point accepted but remember we are all accountable for our posts.

Slagging of the Scots and Welsh when you are all in the same boat is a bit to much. They pay taxes too, and no doubt have to face the current economic situation the same as yourself.

Connaught Ranger.:)

[welshmann]

Most English would like to see the back of the Scottish because they are getting huge amounts of money from the English tax payers. They have the benefits of free this and free that. If they had to raise their own taxes then I don't think their puppet (muppet) parliament in their legoland building would be so free with the money.
To be honest I would like to get rid of Wales and Scotland and let them go back to the third world nations they are. They don't want to be associated with us (England) then they can get lost. If they had gone sooner then we would not have got Gordon Clown as a Prime Minister.

wow what a wanker.

i must now go and drink from
the local stream!

and rember ,the guys in
the lego buildings are doing such a bad job,that a lot of english are kicking off because of the benefits of free dental,free travel(over 60s)& free Prescriptions

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

wow what a wanker.

i must now go and drink from
the local stream!Same here I think he could be a champion knob jockey.

[RAFREGT.]

What a lot of people seem to miss is that Scotland (or Wales, or NI) is no closer to "Independance" than it was in 1950.

The existence of a Scottish Parliament is not quite the magic bullet many seem to think. It has absolutely zero authority or power to affect anything regarding the change of Constitutional matters. The very act (Scotland Act 1998) that created the Scottish Parliament also upholds the absolute sovereignty of Westminster (iow, Westminster > Holryood) and reserves all constitutional* matters to Westminster.

So, referendum** or not, Holyrood is not a path to Independance. Everything important gets decided in Westminster.


*-up to, and including, dismissing and dissolving the lower assemblies, by amending the Scotland Act.

**-the very proposal of which shows either how ignorant the SNP leadership (and voting base) are, or how shallow they are (pandering to get votes, regardless of whether they can do what they promise).


The REASON SNP hasn't held this referendum is because they know they would lose...its that simple. I hate to say it but this recession (official now:roll:) shows that any country can struggle (look at Iceland) best to stick together and dish out a bit of devolution to keep the picts and celts happy!


and rember ,the guys in
the lego buildings are doing such a bad job,that a lot of english are kicking off because of the benefits of free dental,free travel(over 60s)& free Prescriptions

and free University education! and council tax frozen for the second year in a row! woot

[Old_Boy_Steve]

RAFREGT
1. Its an opinion based on many years of paying huge amounts of UK tax
2. Blair was on a par with Brown but at least he could see a depression coming and got out early, the only clever thing he did
3. Left school a long long time ago, got a degree in economics but during that time was in the territorials and played a lot of rugby. Then spent 10 years in UK military as a soldier(because I loved it, and guns), went to the Falklands spent time in NI, Germany, NI, Scotland, NI (just missed Gulf War 1). Left the army with a specialist trade and went into private industry. Now own a plant nursery and another business.
Father went all the way through WWII, he signed up as he could see the war coming and was a Sargent Major. France with BEF, N Africa, Italy, Germany, saw a lot of action. He was proud to be English and so am I.

Guns.. What Regiment were you?

For what company did you work for?

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Support for independence goes up and down like a whores knickers but the notion of of independece is not going away anytime soon. The SNP are winning in the popularity stakes at the moment which not really hard given the alternatives in Scotland and Nationalism is always popular in harsh economic times.

Well if they pursue it they truly are sadly deluded fools. This island isn't big enough for competing petty nationalisms and completely artificial contrived divides.

[oldsoak]

I can understand Scots and Welsh being p*ssed off with a government that lives in England and which never seems answerable to them and the erosion of their culture - but I agree with ex-stab here that we aint big enough to go our seperate ways - and that goes for the English as well. I do feel that we need to examine how we govern in the UK, and that the local assemblies of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland should be given to power to veto rulings made by House of Lords. This would drive the need to arrive at a consensus.

[tea drinker]

Lazy Lob's other thread about corruption in the Commons, stuff like this pisses everyone off, english obviously included, but I guess the rest of the Britons are more senstive to this carry on.
This recession has served to take people's attention away from the latest gadgets etc and they are trying to find real issues to occupy their mind. Maybe they will get a better system...

Wasn't Obama supposed to fix all this anyway?

[Flamming_Python]

I swear these threads pop up every half a year or so and each discussion is more ridiculous than the last.

What would be the benefit of Wales and Scotland leaving the UK again? Nope, nothing. They would only end up joining the EU anyway, very little would change.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I swear these threads pop up every half a year or so and each discussion is more ridiculous than the last.

What would be the benefit of Wales and Scotland leaving the UK again? Nope, nothing. They would only end up joining the EU anyway, very little would change.

I agree. The highest aspiration of Scots Nationalism seems to be to swap union with the UK (in which they get to punch above the weight) with integration into the EU (in which they will be last in the queue for handouts). It's not exactly stirring stuff is it :roll:

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I agree. The highest aspiration of Scots Nationalism seems to be to swap union with the UK (in which they get to punch above the weight) with integration into the EU (in which they will be last in the queue for handouts). It's not exactly stirring stuff is it :roll:Which may be a better option than getting shat on by the next Tory govt.

[Moriarti]

Ahhh - piss on it - if a bunch of Yank Colonists can break away from Great Britain why can't the warriorlike people of Ireland and Scotland throw off the yoke of England's oppresion - hell the Cornish and Welsh should seced as well - and don't do it is a pussified way like the Canadians, Austailians, Indians and South Africans - GO TO WAR over it!! Down with English Tyranny! The specter of Cromwell lives!

[oldsoak]

Which may be a better option than getting shat on by the next Tory govt.

You do have a point. Actually a fairly major one.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Which may be a better option than getting shat on by the next Tory govt.

I doubt it. Scotland will be very much a fringe territory in the EU and the days of big easy handouts to Ireland, E European states etc are long gone. Scotland will be at the back of the queue. It will be like Albania with rain.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Ahhh - piss on it - if a bunch of Yank Colonists can break away from Great Britain

They only managed to do it with the help of the French Army on Land and the French Navy at sea. I can't see the sweaties getting that kind of help from the frogmunchers these days ;-)

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I doubt it. Scotland will be very much a fringe territory in the EU and the days of big easy handouts to Ireland, E European states etc are long gone. Scotland will be at the back of the queue. It will be like Albania with rain.We are already part of an EU state I really doubt we will get shunted. There is no doubt that if the Tories get in we will get slapped like a red headed step child.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

We are already part of an EU state I really doubt we will get shunted. There is no doubt that if the Tories get in we will get slapped like a red headed step child.

I didn't mean shunted I just mean't being regarded by the EU as peripheral and very unimportant.

I don't think the Tories will get in. There is now such a huge Labour 'client' population in terms of welfare recipients and public sector employees and their dependents that I believe the political landscape in the UK has been completely changed by Labour's 'Sovietization.' None of those people are going to financially cut their own throats by voting Conservative and I think it will be enough to swing the election towards another 5 years of creeping totalitarianism under Labour.

[gazell]

And so many new parties they are escaping into. Just one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect_–_The_Unity_Coalition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect_%E2%80%93_The_Unity_Coalition)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

And so many new parties they are escaping into. Just one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect_–_The_Unity_Coalition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect_%E2%80%93_The_Unity_Coalition)

Oh yah they're really mainstream :roll:

[gazell]

Oh yah they're really mainstream :roll:


I know they are not, everybody is trying to save themselves.

[Gebirgsjäger]

Finally the United Kingdom, can truly grasp the feeling of what it means to be an Anglophone Canadian or atleast non-French speaking Canadian.

[RAFREGT.]

lads lads lads, it ain't gonna happen without my say so, because i'm in charge of Scotland. Its mine. we're staying as part of the UK, Ol' Lizzy can still be our QE 1st. End of.

night night all.


Thread closed.

(yes, the 1st...shes Englands 2nd, but Scotlands first.)

[Old_Boy_Steve]

lads lads lads, it ain't gonna happen without my say so, because i'm in charge of Scotland. Its mine. we're staying as part of the UK, Ol' Lizzy can still be our QE 1st. End of.

night night all.


Thread closed.

Wise words from the ape.

[Atlantic Friend]

Finally the United Kingdom, can truly grasp the feeling of what it means to be an Anglophone Canadian or atleast non-French speaking Canadian.

You mean, an overwhelming and sometimes overbearing majority ? ;)

[RAFREGT.]

Wise words from the ape.

thank you! i'm here all week!

[Lethal Lou]

Based on voting patterns, if Scotland/England/Wales go their seperate ways, then Labor can kiss running England goodbye in the next election. Check out the home district distribution of the parties in that regard.

On a seperate note, it will be interesting to see where all the jobs would come from in the event of a devolution. Quoting from the Times (the real one, not the one across the pond)

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article5581225.ece

If you're wondering where the "stimulus" will lead in the long run, consider this story from The Times of London (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article5581225.ece):

PARTS of the United Kingdom have become so heavily dependent on government spending that the private sector is generating less than a third of the regional economy, a new analysis has found.
The study of “Soviet Britain” has found the government’s share of output and expenditure has now surged to more than 60% in some areas of England and over 70% elsewhere.
Across the UK as a whole, government spending now accounts for 49% of the economy. And look at these regional variations:
Southern England: a mere 36% of the economy is government spending;
Northeast England: 66.4%;
Wales: 71.6%;
Northern Ireland: 77.6%.
As The Times notes:

The state now looms far larger in many parts of Britain than it did in former Soviet satellite states such as Hungary and Slovakia as they emerged from communism in the 1990s, when state spending accounted for about 60% of their economies.
Big government is where once successful nations go to die

[welshmann]

Based on voting patterns, if Scotland/England/Wales go their seperate ways, then Labor can kiss running England goodbye in the next election. Check out the home district distribution of the parties in that regard.

On a seperate note, it will be interesting to see where all the jobs would come from in the event of a devolution. Quoting from the Times (the real one, not the one across the pond)

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article5581225.ece

If you're wondering where the "stimulus" will lead in the long run, consider this story from The Times of London (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article5581225.ece):

PARTS of the United Kingdom have become so heavily dependent on government spending that the private sector is generating less than a third of the regional economy, a new analysis has found.
The study of “Soviet Britain” has found the government’s share of output and expenditure has now surged to more than 60% in some areas of England and over 70% elsewhere.
Across the UK as a whole, government spending now accounts for 49% of the economy. And look at these regional variations:
Southern England: a mere 36% of the economy is government spending;
Northeast England: 66.4%;
Wales: 71.6%;
Northern Ireland: 77.6%.


be good to see how many people in the highest% areas work in the public sector
that would count as goverment spending right?....& where is scotland in that list?

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

I think England should be absorbed back into France....just kidding.

Absorbed back into France?

France never has and never will rule England.

I call for a restoration of the Angevin Empire.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Absorbed back into France?

France never has and never will rule England.

I call for a restoration of the Angevin Empire.

Yes in fact England formerly ruled large areas of what is now France.

[oldsoak]

Stuff that - I say the English re-unite with the Danes and Norwegians ! :-)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Stuff that - I say the English re-unite with the Danes and Norwegians ! :-)

Well the female ones anyway! ;-)

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/Minardiau/The_British_Empire.jpg

[oldsoak]

We could always become Australian English Territory , I guess.
Flag will be as per normal state flag - Union, blue background with the royal cipher on it as NSW have knicked the design with the english flag on it.