"USA have made a mistake" Obama speaks to muslim world

[JoaMei]

He speaks of a new partnership in respect on both sides.

Any english link to that Interview?

http://www.n-tv.de/1092384.html

[Firefly26]

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/27/obama.arabia/index.html

[INAT]

Well With Zbig back in power as a member of the unaccountable Trilateral Commission the Obama administration may look to make relative peace with
Islam and eye Moscow.We all know how the Polish New World Order soldier hates the Russians.But to call what Americans did to Islam a mistake is
insult to injury.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Oh well thank goodness he's set the record straight. Now all those unpleasant young men chanting in the street will know better and won't hold it against us when we turn their friends and family into smoldering craters. Whew.

[3rdMillhouse]

The appeasement has begun.

[Switek]

If POTUS says "USA have made a mistake" this must mean (in some places) as almost "US is a mistake itself".

Bin Landen must be laughing now...

:|

[DetailedEntrails]

If POTUS says "USA have made a mistake" this must mean (in some places) as almost "US is a mistake itself".

Bin Landen must be laughing now...

:|Lets not start mincing words now, ok?

[Switek]

Lets not start mincing words now, ok?

I don't get your point... The problem is that self exculpation made by president Obama opens a propaganda ammunition warehouse for terrorists who can claim: weren't we right then?

[DetailedEntrails]

I don't get your point... The problem is that self exculpation made by president Obama opens a propaganda ammunition warehouse for terrorists who can claim: weren't we right then?

I see your point but i dont see a problem with showing a little bit of humility. It takes a bigger man to admit a mistake than to pretend one never happened.

[Switek]

I see your point but i dont see a problem with showing a little bit of humility. It takes a bigger man to admit a mistake than to pretend one never happened.


Some words, gestures of kindness made in our culture will be taken as weakness attestation in others... wanna bet?

[Basillicus]

I don't get your point... The problem is that self exculpation made by president Obama opens a propaganda ammunition warehouse for terrorists who can claim: weren't we right then?

More like it will take away some propaganda ammunition. USA under Obama has now openly expressed that it does not seek conflict with the whole muslim world but will fight only against terrorism. The terrorists would like nothing more than claim that the USA is at war with Islam and use this to justify and fuel their own little religious war ... which suprisingly enough is something that many conservative Americans seem to want too.

[Albatross]

Some words, gestures of kindness made in our culture will be taken as weakness attestation in others... wanna bet?


Yep, this is a huge mistake. He disgusts me.

[indiana46767]

I see your point but i dont see a problem with showing a little bit of humility. It takes a bigger man to admit a mistake than to pretend one never happened.

Yes we did make a mistake, that mistake had a name,...W. Bush. We can sit here and apologize until we get blue in the face, but the Muslim community is still going to want to kill us. We can get out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and its still going to be the same.... WE are the Infidels according to them, but i do applaud Obama for at least trying to fix our international image, but honestly i think that we are wasting our time.

[Jobu]

I see your point but i dont see a problem with showing a little bit of humility. It takes a bigger man to admit a mistake than to pretend one never happened.

When is The One going to admit he was wrong about the surge?

[Switek]

More like it will take away some propaganda ammunition. USA under Obama has now openly expressed that it does not seek conflict with the whole muslim world but will fight only against terrorism. The terrorists would like nothing more than claim that the USA is at war with Islam and use this to justify and fuel their own little religious war ... which suprisingly enough is something that many conservative Americans seem to want too.


Well I do not believe that Muslims are born terrorists. I'm sure that Muslim extremism (including terrorists) concerns significant minority of Muslims.

But I do believe in Muslim aversion toward western values, life style, etc. This dislike (what is spirit core and basis for terrorists) is directed first of all against USA couse of many reasons... The most important is not latest WOT and person of latest president George Bush but continuous supporting (in many levels) Israel. The Arab hate against USA is strictly correlated with beginning of Israel existence.

I'm waiting when Barack Obama will admit "Well in Israel case, USA have made a mistake"

[zema_06]

it seems that as usual the only way the to talk to muslims is to admit that every mistake was from our side and that they never made mistakes...:roll:

[Gleipnir]

If POTUS says "USA have made a mistake" this must mean (in some places) as almost "US is a mistake itself".

Bin Landen must be laughing now...

:|

Gentleman, the devil is in the details:
the quote is:
"We sometimes make mistakes. We have not been perfect."

I don't interpret what Mr. Obama is saying as the big picture being a mistake, but that within the bigger picture certain mistakes have been made, which I feel is valid.
An example perhaps being moving focus away from Afghanistan after the Taliban had been ousted from power and allowing a resurgence to occur.

The thread title is a misquote and I can see how this could be easily misinterpreted- especially when removed from context.

[DetailedEntrails]

More like it will take away some propaganda ammunition. USA under Obama has now openly expressed that it does not seek conflict with the whole muslim world but will fight only against terrorism. The terrorists would like nothing more than claim that the USA is at war with Islam and use this to justify and fuel their own little religious war ... which suprisingly enough is something that many conservative Americans seem to want too.

Great way to put it. Thats how these extremists want it to be. the US against the whole islamic world. Helps fuel recruitment and angst.

[Switek]

Gentleman, the devil is in the details:
the quote is:
"We sometimes make mistakes. We have not been perfect."

Yes you're absolutely right the devil is in the details. Look at this sentence once again:
"We sometimes make mistakes. We have not been perfect." This is not language which should be used by POTUS, not now. This is a language used by shrink's patients... ;)

Statesman should say:

"We have came with sword. Now we bring a olive palm". Or something...

[Gleipnir]

Well With Zbig back in power as a member of the unaccountable Trilateral Commission the Obama administration may look to make relative peace with
Islam and eye Moscow.We all know how the Polish New World Order soldier hates the Russians.But to call what Americans did to Islam a mistake is
insult to injury.

Zbigniew Brzezinski was an enormous factor in the grand narrative for the mujahideen in Afghanistan, I recall him telling them that their holy war was a just war. Many people like to say Carter didn't do a whole lot, but it was Mr Carter who first approved the arming and training of the mujahideen. Reagan gets all the credit. So do Hollywood film friendly mavericks like Charlie Wilson.
Maybe it's time for Mr Brzezinski to start making the effects of his legacy in the region worth something positive for all involved in today's conflict.

[badly_packed_kebab]

The appeasement has begun.

I'm not convinced that is the case. I would rather the west made a few minor concessions in order to gain some much needed support in the middle east (from the citizens of middle east themselves) than carry on with an attitude that could well get more of our civilians killed needlessly. Remember this war was in an effort to secure peace, is it a bad thing for us to wish for some peace after we've fought so hard for it?


I see your point but i dont see a problem with showing a little bit of humility. It takes a bigger man to admit a mistake than to pretend one never happened.

Agree completely. It's impossible improve our policy in Iraq and Afghanistan etc without looking at past mistakes. It may give the enemy some propaganda to aim at the west. However, if the more moderate muslims (or ones that may be closer to the fence than others) take this into account then we have reduced the number of people who hate the west. We are already at war with the nutjobs that make the propaganda regardless of what anyone apologises for, but if we can sway the hearts and minds of the people that aren't yet on the enemy's pay roll, then we can reduce the number of peolple that hate the west and that are prepared to take up the gun against us.

[DetailedEntrails]

it seems that as usual the only way the to talk to muslims is to admit that every mistake was from our side and that they never made mistakes...:roll:

I think acknowledging theres a great amount of Islamic terrorists is doing plenty to point a finger at them. Basically being over their is telling them "they ****ed up". If they majority could grow a pair we wouldnt have this problem.

[indiana46767]

Well you can look at it this way too. Look at the Palestinians and the way they reacted to 9/11, jumping and chanting "praise allah". I don't see them sending a message of regret to the American people, or anyone for that matter. We took a step that they, the muslim countries would never do.

[DetailedEntrails]

Also i hope that "USA have made a mistake" isnt a direct quote. Thats grammar fail that only Bush could pull off at the top of his game.

[Jobu]

Sorry but, Obama is a naive idiot.

[indiana46767]

Also i hope that "USA have made a mistake" isnt a direct quote. Thats grammar fail that only Bush could pull off at the top of his game.

Bush had game?? Game over, more like it. lol

[Switek]

It's impossible improve our policy in Iraq and Afghanistan etc without looking at past mistakes. It may give the enemy some propaganda to aim at the west. However, if the more moderate muslims (or ones that may be closer to the fence than others) take this into account then we have reduced the number of people who hate the west.

This is as we wish it should work. But it wouldn't

[Switek]

Sorry but, Obama is a naive idiot.
I can't disagree with above statement in this case.

[California Joe]

Well With Zbig back in power as a member of the unaccountable Trilateral Commission the Obama administration may look to make relative peace with
Islam and eye Moscow.We all know how the Polish New World Order soldier hates the Russians.But to call what Americans did to Islam a mistake is
insult to injury.

Um yeah, everything is not about you. Maybe you should punch some logs and relax.

Talking to these psychos as if we believe they're human beings interested in peace doesn't preclude us from dropping large bombs on them if they act out.

Politicians should act politically. They should use all means at their disposal. When you start the conversation by calling the other guy evil incarnate and launching a crusade you sort of limit your options.

[DetailedEntrails]

Well you can look at it this way too. Look at the Palestinians and the way they reacted to 9/11, jumping and chanting "praise allah". I don't see them sending a message of regret to the American people, or anyone for that matter. We took a step that they, the muslim countries would never do.

Agreed. Palestinians celebrating us getting hit isnt any kind of a suprise. I mean we do support Isreal. The United States is supposed to take the high ground in these sort of things. Thats what makes us the greatest country in the world, even with some of the problems we have.

[indiana46767]

Agreed. Palestinians celebrating us getting hit isnt any kind of a suprise. I mean we do support Isreal. The United States is supposed to take the high ground in these sort of things. Thats what makes us the greatest country in the world, even with some of the problems we have.

Can i get a witness! amen brother.

[badly_packed_kebab]

This is as we wish it should work. But it wouldn't

I agree this may not work in certain middle eastern countries, however it isn't un reasonable to assume that more openess with the muslim community may well stem some of the extremism here in the UK for example. The july 7th bombs were caused by "homegrown" terrorists IRRC, if we can be seen to be against terrorists only and not the muslims as a whole, widespread support may diminish.

If this isnt the case then they can send out propaganda about "a weaker west that admits it's wrong" as much as they want, it will still only go to the same idiots as we had before without us being in any weaker position at all.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

More like it will take away some propaganda ammunition. USA under Obama has now openly expressed that it does not seek conflict with the whole muslim world but will fight only against terrorism. The terrorists would like nothing more than claim that the USA is at war with Islam and use this to justify and fuel their own little religious war ... which suprisingly enough is something that many conservative Americans seem to want too.

Oh for F's sake, we've been at this for 8 years - do you honestly think at this late date, since it's been said more times than I can count, that they don't already know we're not on Crusade #10? You can go and google innumerable references in speeches that Bush has made, where he has clearly and unambiguously said exactly the same thing. Did that not count because he didn't look like the intended audience and had a funny name? Or is the world supposed to think that the new Grand Sultan of America has the power to completely change her policies at his holy whim, and now we're going to make nice? Either assumption reveals the audience to be a bunch of bird-brained idiots who could not be expected to understand the content of the speech in the first place, and so it's ultimately a meaningless gesture.

[zema_06]

Sorry but, Obama is a naive idiot.

today at university i said the same thing, especially the girls speak of him like some sort of messia.

i remember the days after the election: the usa will never again act unilaterally in external politics...now he's is bombing pakistan without even talking with his allies (wasn't he the men of dialogue? rofl) as this can influence the isaf mission...

[Weasel]

It needs cochones to admit a mistake.

[indiana46767]

today at university i said the same thing, especially the girls speak of him like some sort of messia.

i remember the days after the election: the usa will never again act unilaterally in external politics...now he's is bombing pakistan without even talking with his allies (wasn't he the men of dialogue? rofl) as this can influence the isaf mission...

Well if the government is actively trying to not do something about this region then we must. India paid the price for Pakistan's impotence.

[WarDancer]

Why would you want to "talk" to people who saw peoples heads off, who strap bombs to their children, who call for the death of anyone who is not muslim? This is a culture that looks at "talking" as a sign of weakness and only reinforces that view. As for the so-called "majority" of muslims who are peaceful. No such animal exists. This is the same "majority" that danced in the streets of Gaza during 9/11, who storm embassies and kidnap Israeli soldiers and tear them apart for public view.

Yea, lets talk to those people. Stupid, stupid, stupid. When will the libs ever realize that talking is exactly what the Islamo-fascists want!

[California Joe]

Oh for F's sake, we've been at this for 8 years - do you honestly think at this late date, since it's been said more times than I can count, that they don't already know we're not on Crusade #10? You can go and google innumerable references in speeches that Bush has made, where he has clearly and unambiguously said exactly the same thing. Did that not count because he didn't look like the intended audience and had a funny name? Or is the world supposed to think that the new Grand Sultan of America has the power to completely change her policies at his holy whim, and now we're going to make nice? Either assumption reveals the audience to be a bunch of bird-brained idiots who could not be expected to understand the content of the speech in the first place, and so it's ultimately a meaningless gesture.

I think that's exactly what a whole bunch of them believe. It's what they're used to.

[Switek]

I agree this may not work in certain middle eastern countries,

It have been working in Rzeczpospolita (Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) since 14th century. Look there you would be surprised (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars).


however it isn't un reasonable to assume that more openess with the muslim community may well stem some of the extremism here in the UK for example. The july 7th bombs were caused by "homegrown" terrorists IRRC, if we can be seen to be against terrorists only and not the muslims as a whole, widespread support may diminish.

If this isnt the case then they can send out propaganda about "a weaker west that admits it's wrong" as much as they want, it will still only go to the same idiots as we had before without us being in any weaker position at all.

You know what is difference between Muslims living in Muslim countries and Muslims living in the west? The first group (poor, usually not educated) have nothing to lost. The second, on the contrary. But above all counter interests and their own ambitions they are socially controlled by system of regulations what requires, first of all, obedience to the elders (head of the family, clan mullahs...). De facto Muslims are inner society like Jews in Europe till mid 20th century. You live in peace as long as your state and society are strong enough to counterbalance growing power of Muslim values. The funny thing is they sooner or later will win using political, democratic procedures.

[indiana46767]

I really dont' see anything coming out of these comments to be frank. I think we can use this as a "well at least we tried" moment.

[indiana46767]

It have been working in Rzeczpospolita (Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) since 14th century. Look there you would be surprised (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars).



You know what is difference between Muslims living in Muslim countries and Muslims living in the west? The first group (poor, usually not educated) have nothing to lost. The second, on the contrary. But above all counter interests and their own ambitions they are socially controlled by system of regulations what requires, first of all, obedience to the elders (head of the family, clan mullahs...). De facto Muslims are inner society like Jews in Europe till mid 20th century. You live in peace as long as your state and society are strong enough to counterbalance growing power of Muslim values. The funny thing is they sooner or later will win using political, democratic procedures.


I would agree with your statements. The Muslims in Middle East are more about getting to Paradise, and the Western Muslim are about family and values if you will. I work with the second group and can tell you that they are polite people and value family alot. They are more considerate of others views as their views are respected aswell.

[DetailedEntrails]

Why would you want to "talk" to people who saw peoples heads off, who strap bombs to their children, who call for the death of anyone who is not muslim? This is a culture that looks at "talking" as a sign of weakness and only reinforces that view. As for the so-called "majority" of muslims who are peaceful. No such animal exists. This is the same "majority" that danced in the streets of Gaza during 9/11, who storm embassies and kidnap Israeli soldiers and tear them apart for public view.

Yea, lets talk to those people. Stupid, stupid, stupid. When will the libs ever realize that talking is exactly what the Islamo-fascists want!

This is the kinda talk that really dont help us in the world view. Wether its true or not. No **** they dance in the streets blah blah blah, we support Israel. Just like in the cold war if someone decided to bang on Russia we would have been doing cheerleading routines for that country.

[Jobu]

This is the kinda talk that really dont help us in the world view.



You know what helps us in the world view? Winning.

[gazell]

I think that's exactly what a whole bunch of them believe. It's what they're used to.

Were my exact thoughts, lol, if lucky, might even work...

[LazerLordz]

But I do believe in Muslim aversion toward western values, life style, etc.

Then they should not immigrate to other states and complain that their new host nation refuses to accomodate their needs beyond what is necessary. Bunch of whingers they are.

[Switek]

Then they should not immigrate to other states and complain that their new host nation refuses to accomodate their needs beyond what is necessary. Bunch of whingers they are.

It's a side effect of colonialism... Post colonial powers suffered for the lack of cheap labor force after WW2 so all those Pakistani, Algerians, Turkish hard worked for increasing western European quality of life p-)

[Van Gogh]

Well I do not believe that Muslims are born terrorists. I'm sure that Muslim extremism (including terrorists) concerns significant minority of Muslims.

But I do believe in Muslim aversion toward western values, life style, etc. This dislike (what is spirit core and basis for terrorists) is directed first of all against USA couse of many reasons... The most important is not latest WOT and person of latest president George Bush but continuous supporting (in many levels) Israel. The Arab hate against USA is strictly correlated with beginning of Israel existence.

I'm waiting when Barack Obama will admit "Well in Israel case, USA have made a mistake"

The only difference between a muslim and a terrorist is the terrorist has already done what the karan told him to.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

It needs cochones to admit a mistake.

Everybody from Tammi the Dairy Queen girl's abusive boyfriend to Jerry Falwell knows that a steady stream of Mea Culpas is the easy way to go. So personally, I don't exactly view it as the last word in testicular dimensional quantification.

[Atlantic Friend]

So, admitting mistakes, - or simply saying "this was a mistake" - is worse than uttering "the US never makes no mistake" ? Saying "mistake" makes one look weaker than "no mistake" ?

Hmm. No, sorry, I don't buy it. We've had 8 years of self-proclaimed self-righteousness, and I'm not sure it achieved anything except the occasional ***** here and there, America **** yeah and Weep'em man it's america, rah rah rah. A fat load of good it did to the cheerleaders, be that domestically or on that pesky world stage.

Personally, I'd grant more attention to what Obama does NOW, and in the coming 4 years, than to how he regards his predecessors have made. He has ample opportunity to screw the pooch on his own policies 2009-2012, and I'd rather see where these take us to than screech or cheer about his take on what was done on PAST years.

[commanding]

You know what helps us in the world view? Winning.

I would have to agree w/ Jobu. although not sure it is the "world view". History is written by the winners in armed conflict. of course the history writers are very kind to themselves. Winning the armed conflict is a result of many things, among them technological advantage, shear numbers of boots on the ground, and the governments and publics determination to stick with it and go "total war".
Total war, is mean and nasty. it looks bad. Total war means killing innocents civilians if that is what it comes to. Total war, means throwing thousands of men and women into harms way even when you know that 50% will die the first day. Winning, is tough, a tough bitch. But the winners, get the goods...land, dominence for years, etc.

one other thing. when fighting a bunch of guerilla warriors, assemtrical (spelling?) warfare, who hide in civilian populations, hide in mosques,hide in womens clothing, hide behind children, force teens and children to carry bombs and grenades...more civilians will be killed. the bad guys know this and know the good guys "feel badly" about it, cause that is the way they/we are. they play on our "weakness" of having feelings and valuing human life.
sometimes it helps to keep it all in perspective, how we are but a grain of sand in the grand scheme of things.

[Switek]

So, admitting mistakes, - or simply saying "this was a mistake" - is worse than uttering "the US never makes no mistake" ? Saying "mistake" makes one look weaker than "no mistake" ?

Hmm. No, sorry, I don't buy it....


Hm..., there's one big country in Europe which never has make any mistake and most western Europeans do not demand it to admits its own mistakes. What more many western Europeans are getting excited when this country criticize US ;)

So, yeah... I underestand... There are two different mistakes, their and ours.


But being serious. Every change of policy ( whatever country you mean) is "de facto" admittance of mistakes. Saying about them loudly is just stupidity.

I believe that those words are also dangerous for US itself. Mr Obama starded making divisions between US citizens.

[commanding]

Why would you want to "talk" to people who saw peoples heads off, who strap bombs to their children, who call for the death of anyone who is not muslim? This is a culture that looks at "talking" as a sign of weakness and only reinforces that view. As for the so-called "majority" of muslims who are peaceful. No such animal exists. This is the same "majority" that danced in the streets of Gaza during 9/11, who storm embassies and kidnap Israeli soldiers and tear them apart for public view.

Yea, lets talk to those people. Stupid, stupid, stupid. When will the libs ever realize that talking is exactly what the Islamo-fascists want!

wardancer...i love your avatar, and your views. you are the man.

[Switek]

The only difference between a muslim and a terrorist is the terrorist has already done what the karan told him to.

Joke? Smells a racist anyway.

If it was so simple there aren't be Muslims except children and mentally disabled right now. All rest has already blown up themselves in their jihads...

[Atlantic Friend]

Hm..., there's one big country in Europe which never has make any mistake and most western Europeans do not demand it to admits its own mistakes.

Feel free to point out that paradise-like country that has never made no mistake and that I can travel to without a passport, man.

[QUOTE] What more many western Europeans are getting excited when this country criticize US ;)

Is Obama a citizen of that fabulous country now ?


So, yeah... I underestand... There are two different mistakes, their and ours

Basically there are the mistakes we acknowledge and those we deny.


But being serious. Every change of policy ( whatever country you mean) is "de facto" admittance of mistakes. Saying about them loudly is just stupidity.

How so ? That would mean that never acknowledging mistakes (or preceived mistakes) is the apex of cleverness. as it doesn't work this way with individuals, I doubt it works with nations. Because hey, if it did, wouldn't you an avowed fan of that "big country in Europe" which "has never made any mistake" ? ;)


I believe that those words are also dangerous for US itself. Mr Obama starded making divisions between US citizens.

Don't you think the US political system didn't wait for Mr Obama to make divisions between US citizens ? Given the number of threads started here and there about how Obama is a closet Muslim / a closet Communist / a closet terrorist I daresay the great divide is already there.

[commanding]

[quote=atlantic friend;3876668]

Don't you think the US political system didn't wait for Mr Obama to make divisions between US citizens ? Given the number of threads started here and there about how Obama is a closet Muslim / a closet Communist / a closet terrorist I daresay the great divide is already there.

well, don't read too much between the lines partner. The folks of the USA are much more united than you might expect from thousands of miles away. we have our disagreements, most US citizens are very independent, but there is a difference in disagreeing and being divided. When faced with a common enemy, the USA comes together quick/****to.

[Gleipnir]

You know what helps us in the world view? Winning.

No offense meant to you Jobu, but I find this to be a rather outdated way of looking at warfare.
I think we have to just accept that the masculinized ideal of fighting battalion to battalion in discernable uniforms on an open plain is about as relevant as misinterpretations of Darwin's 'survival of the fittest'.

Winning is no longer quantifiable in these types of engagements and the sooner we start looking at warfare under these modern (and not recently so) conditions more benefits can start to be drawn from contemporary armed conflicts.

[Atlantic Friend]

well, don't read too much between the lines partner. The folks of the USA are much more united than you might expect from thousands of miles away. we have our disagreements, most US citizens are very independent, but there is a difference in disagreeing and being divided. When faced with a common enemy, the USA comes together quick/****to.

And this prevents the President to say "we didn't do it right the first time"....how ? Partner ?

[Moledet]

Obama is naive, he'll grow out of it in a year.



Feel free to point out that paradise-like country that has never made no mistake and that I can travel to without a passport, man.
He meant that you don't need to travel, you are in that country.

[Jobu]

No offense meant to you Jobu, but I find this to be a rather outdated way of looking at warfare.
I think we have to just accept that the masculinized ideal of fighting battalion to battalion in discernable uniforms on an open plain is about as relevant as misinterpretations of Darwin's 'survival of the fittest'.

Winning is no longer quantifiable in these types of engagements and the sooner we start looking at warfare under these modern (and not recently so) conditions more benefits can start to be drawn from contemporary armed conflicts.

Winning is always quantifiable.

When your enemy changes his ways and is either unwilling to fight on or unable to fight on, you've won.

[Gunbird]

Obama realizes that the best weapon against radicalism is sometimes as small in note as a worded, brief, admission of imperfection. It's a departure from the pure colored childlike worldview of the GOP, where conditions and solutions are graded and achieved in absolutes. Obama sees the gradient's, and the realpolitik of contemporary politics.

Admitting obvious mistakes is like diamonds in a moderates ear, and like coal in the extremists. It clouds the extremists cause with ambiguity by bringing into question the idea of the opposition being a pure essential evil.

Hearts and minds.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

So, admitting mistakes, - or simply saying "this was a mistake" - is worse than uttering "the US never makes no mistake" ? Saying "mistake" makes one look weaker than "no mistake" ?

To err is human - all of humanity knows that everything we do is tarnished by our mistakes. We have never claimed to have never made a mistake, that would be stupid. So for our leader to conduct a national foreign policy speech pointing it out seems rather unnecessary. But I must note, in a delicious irony - if we listen to the subject matter experts, there is one thing that humanity has made that is absolutely perfect and correct in every way...the Quran. Hey, maybe we could strike a bargain; agree to say the US can be wrong, when the Islamic world says the Quran can be wrong....we'll see which side bends first. Oh wait, we already did when our leader threw himself on the floor in abject apology before the majesty of the enemy. Well maybe next war.



Hmm. No, sorry, I don't buy it. We've had 8 years of self-proclaimed self-righteousness, and I'm not sure it achieved anything except the occasional ***** here and there, America **** yeah and Weep'em man it's america, rah rah rah. A fat load of good it did to the cheerleaders, be that domestically or on that pesky world stage.

Well, it has eliminated the previous surplus of virgins wandering around unemployed in paradise. But beyond that, I really don't care much about the world stage. I'm not an actor, and so I'm not so insecure as to require the external validation by others to avoid wolfing down a Whitman's Sampler and bursting into tears.



Personally, I'd grant more attention to what Obama does NOW, and in the coming 4 years, than to how he regards his predecessors have made. He has ample opportunity to screw the pooch on his own policies 2009-2012, and I'd rather see where these take us to than screech or cheer about his take on what was done on PAST years.

Agreed. But starting off this way is a huge step in the wrong direction IMO. This is a small armed conflict inside of a massive political conflict. What he did was to concede a political point to them - which probably achieved more for them than they've achieved by force of arms in the last 8 years. He has started down the path of legitimizing their position and worldview, and that leads inexorably to the next step in the process. It's a shame we can't put Mr. Obama in a time machine and send him to 1944, where he could make one of his eloquent speeches, tell the downtrodden people of the Axis world that we Allies have made mistakes, and that we're seeking a new relationship based on mutual interests and mutual respect. They could give up a little, we could give up a little, everybody would end up happy. p-)

[socom6]

LOL 2Sheds is pretty pissed.:D I think Obama is being very political coming out like this, he's just repeating GW's mea culpa saying that mistakes have been made. Obama really is pleading to the moderate majority Muslims worldwide not the bloodthirsty murderous religious zealots who have defamed Islam. Obama will deal with those marked for death scum of the earth bastards soon enough.... I think.

But still one has to hand it to GW, he really kicked fanatical islamist ass, he hurt them bad which is always a good thing.

[BlackFlag]

Maybe Mr. President is trying to use his name to influence Muslim opinion. :roll:

Who cares, it's his administration. I didn't vote Obama, but I am at least going to give the guy a chance. He has been in office a week.

Some of you guys are already turning into the same kind of animal lib types you despised like whenever someone talked **** about Bush for it being, "the in thing" to do.

Show a little faith in the guy. If 4 years from now (or sooner) he takes away guns, starts 5 year plans, institutes Muslim law blah blah blah, then I'll be talking **** right there with you.

BTW. Hamas-Hezbollah-Al'Queda-Taliban-Hannah Montana can suck it.

[Jobu]

Show a little faith in the guy.

Why? What has he done to convince me to have faith in his judgement?

[Gleipnir]

Winning is always quantifiable.

When your enemy changes his ways and is either unwilling to fight on or unable to fight on, you've won.

A good point and one I would normally agree with, yet I recall the Taliban having been defeated/ousted and this being considered a victory, yet they returned and and it continues.
I am just curious how you would define a win in Afghanistan, or for that matter in the war on Terror.
When the Taliban gives up and or is decimated? Ditto for the terrs?
Does it need to be a formal surrender?

[BlackFlag]

Why? What has he done to convince me to have faith in his judgement?



If you want to be black and white about it. He is the elected leader of th US, to say he has bad judgement is to say the US people have bad judgement. Which is to say you have no faith in the American people, and therefore no faith in America...Commie. p-)

[2Sheds_Jackson]

LOL 2Sheds is pretty pissed.:D

heh well not so much. I just dislike seeing hard-earned results go to waste. Whenever we change administrations it's bound to happen - but the stakes are pretty high here. Maybe if Obama would try something really new I wouldn't be bent outta shape. This just seems to be a return to our half-assed pre 2001 stance...that got us here in the first place. Weren't we all mutual respecty and living together in peace and harmony until somebody pushed the issue by crashing some planes into our buildings?

[Gleipnir]

If you want to be black and white about it. He is the elected leader of th US, to say he has bad judgement is to say the US people have bad judgement. Which is to say you have no faith in the American people, and therefore no faith in America...Commie. p-)

Indeed.
If the one you votes for wins and you enjoy what he is doing you can be proud and say I voted for this man and if you dislike what he is doing question why you voted for him or speak about how he is letting you down.

If the one you didn't vote for wins you can hate on him and gloat to those who did when his policies fail. You can accuse the Government of rigging the election and nourish your belief in conspiracy. You can grow more passionate about his opposition who you can vote for in 4 years time.

That is the democratic way.

[Gunbird]

Agreed. But starting off this way is a huge step in the wrong direction IMO. This is a small armed conflict inside of a massive political conflict. What he did was to concede a political point to them - which probably achieved more for them than they've achieved by force of arms in the last 8 years. He has started down the path of legitimizing their position and worldview, and that leads inexorably to the next step in the process. It's a shame we can't put Mr. Obama in a time machine and send him to 1944, where he could make one of his eloquent speeches, tell the downtrodden people of the Axis world that we Allies have made mistakes, and that we're seeking a new relationship based on mutual interests and mutual respect. They could give up a little, we could give up a little, everybody would end up happy. p-)


This is nothing like World War 2, so why make the comparison? Obama was speaking to the Muslim world, the majority of them being moderates, or people who desire to just live their lives. He specifically mentions destroying misconception with the Muslim world being his responsibility in this interview, and vice versa with the American people. We weren't in Germany during World War 2 trying to bolster a government as in Iraq, and as in Afghanistan. The conflicts here, many of them unrelated at their roots, are not really won, as in World War 2. We will not be charging and planting flags upon hills in celebrations of clear concise victories over adversaries. The world has shrunk, and to facilitate this reality politics has grown more complex, and less romantic. These are not conventional conflicts of old, not at all. We won't win by bombing Baghdad like Dresden, to make further comparison to World War 2.

How the acknowledgement of errors, even unspecific, is a concession to extremists, I do not understand. What it does do, and I mentioned this in my last post, is it dilutes the propaganda. It dilutes the idea that this power, nation, or civilization is an all-unlistening behemoth bent on destruction, and immorality. The flaw is the idea that there are no moderates where these conflicts are taking place, and that they do not hear. This is a caricatured view of the region, where the masses are represented by those extreme exceptions shown on TV. It's a child-like take on reality.

I can't see anything to disagree with Obama on in this specific interview. He said that we have made mistakes, but we are not the enemy. That is the case.

[Jobu]

If you want to be black and white about it. He is the elected leader of th US, to say he has bad judgement is to say the US people have bad judgement. Which is to say you have no faith in the American people, and therefore no faith in America...Commie. p-)


Most people, in all countries, are morons. America is not an exception in this case.

Most people watched their televisions, heard "the narrative" about Obama being the first black President and decided it was a nice story. Stupid people love a nice story. They didn't give a crap about his actual policies. They didn't give a crap about his record of poor judgement (Ayers, Rezko, Wright, etc.)

That wasn't part of the narrative.

[California Joe]

heh well not so much. I just dislike seeing hard-earned results go to waste. Whenever we change administrations it's bound to happen - but the stakes are pretty high here. Maybe if Obama would try something really new I wouldn't be bent outta shape. This just seems to be a return to our half-assed pre 2001 stance...that got us here in the first place. Weren't we all mutual respecty and living together in peace and harmony until somebody pushed the issue by crashing some planes into our buildings?

I always agree with you even if I don't agree with you, you eloquent bastard.

Can someone show me where "talking" and "bombing the sh*t out of you" are mutually exclusive? I mean if the bad guys can do it, we can too right? We can talk and appeal to moderates and use this bizzarro goodwill that the new Pres seems to enjoy at the moment all over the world. Might as well. Petulant silence doesn't seem to have done sh*t for our foreign policy. Pretty sure if the "talking" doesn't resolve anything there's always more shooting to be done.

[California Joe]

Most people, in all countries, are morons. America is not an exception in this case.

Most people watched their televisions, heard "the narrative" about Obama being the first black President and decided it was a nice story. Stupid people love a nice story. They didn't give a crap about his actual policies. They didn't give a crap about his record of poor judgement (Ayers, Rezko, Wright, etc.)

That wasn't part of the narrative.

Were these the same stupid people that gushed over Sarah Palin or a whole separate mass of stupid people?

[Jobu]

It's a shame we can't put Mr. Obama in a time machine and send him to 1944, where he could make one of his eloquent speeches, tell the downtrodden people of the Axis world that we Allies have made mistakes, and that we're seeking a new relationship based on mutual interests and mutual respect. They could give up a little, we could give up a little, everybody would end up happy. p-)


We had that. Only it was 1938 and the guy's name was Neville Chamberlain.
He preemptively apologized to Hitler, basically out-Obamaing our own nincompoop of a leader.

[MaverickCowboy]

Were these the same stupid people that gushed over Sarah Palin or a whole separate mass of stupid people?

and the ones dryhumping her leg?

[BlackFlag]

Most people, in all countries, are morons. America is not an exception in this case.

Most people watched their televisions, heard "the narrative" about Obama being the first black President and decided it was a nice story. Stupid people love a nice story. They didn't give a crap about his actual policies. They didn't give a crap about his record of poor judgement (Ayers, Rezko, Wright, etc.)

That wasn't part of the narrative.

I was just yanking your chain. I agree with you and most of the users on this thread. I figured I'd play Devil's Advocate for a minute. ;-)

[Jobu]

Were these the same stupid people that gushed over Sarah Palin or a whole separate mass of stupid people?

The same who gushed over Palin/Bush/Clinton/etc.

I'm not going to pretend that it's any different for either party. You have a small minority of voters who actually look into how the candidates stand on the issues and vote accordingly, then you have a huge majority who vote according to the story being told.

[California Joe]

I know, I agree with you that all of the fanboys are retarded no matter what personality they cling to.

Come on now, talking to Arab TV is Neville Chamberlin? Maybe he should go out and "accidentally" shoot one of his contributors in the face to show he's not to be trifled with.

[badly_packed_kebab]

heh well not so much. I just dislike seeing hard-earned results go to waste. Whenever we change administrations it's bound to happen - but the stakes are pretty high here. Maybe if Obama would try something really new I wouldn't be bent outta shape. This just seems to be a return to our half-assed pre 2001 stance...that got us here in the first place. Weren't we all mutual respecty and living together in peace and harmony until somebody pushed the issue by crashing some planes into our buildings?

I wholeheartedly agree with you, and I don't think anyone was advocating wasting such hard earned results (at least I wasn't). However, I dont like to see opportunity missed either, and I think it would be wrong for anyone to miss the opportunity to at least try to resolve the general hatred towards the west. I can't see how it would lessen our stance in the middle east so it can only do some good (or nothing at all, but considering we've still got the upper hand militarily its not going to have a much of a detrimental effect on the war). Remember this is not about negotiating with terrorists, instead it's about getting the wider muslim population on our side (which can't be a bad thing surely?).

Edit: oops, didn't see an earler post wich pretty much echoes what I said :oops:

[commanding]

And this prevents the President to say "we didn't do it right the first time"....how ? Partner ?

I didn't say a thing about something preventing the pres from saying whatever the hell is on his mind. I was countering you saying the divide in the USA is already here.

[commanding]

A good point and one I would normally agree with, yet I recall the Taliban having been defeated/ousted and this being considered a victory, yet they returned and and it continues.
I am just curious how you would define a win in Afghanistan, or for that matter in the war on Terror.
When the Taliban gives up and or is decimated? Ditto for the terrs?
Does it need to be a formal surrender?

Did the Barbary pirates sign a formal surrender to the US? Nope. Do we still see the Barbary pirates attacking shipping in the Medd? Nope. Same with Taliban & Al Quada & terrorists. Once someone is whipped like a red headed step child, they take their place with the earthworms and the old dirt nap.

[Gleipnir]

Did the Barbary pirates sign a formal surrender to the US? Nope. Do we still see the Barbary pirates attacking shipping in the Medd? Nope. Same with Taliban & Al Quada & terrorists. Once someone is whipped like a red headed step child, they take their place with the earthworms and the old dirt nap.

This is the same child-beating logic that the Taliban used to keep civilians in line.
How does one go about clearing a village and then after successfully doing so deal with the fact that the village you have cleared is again full of insurgents?

The Taliban were 'whipped' to use your terminology, yet after fleeing and regrouping they returned.

When the US decided to pull out of Vietnam would you consider the US at that moment taking their place with the earthworms and the old dirt nap?

As for beating children, don't they usually go on to act out and beat those weaker than them? Like civilians, say.

[commanding]

darn, I guess you are right! we should just give up this fight against the Taliban and Al Quada and terrorism. bulldoze our schools, execute all school teachers and christians, buddists, etc, and get some Korans and head sheets. Don't know why it took me so long to get it.

[Laworkerbee]

How does one go about clearing a village and then after successfully doing so deal with the fact that the village you have cleared is again full of insurgents?

Where, when and what part of the country are you talking about? Unless of course you are simply talking out of your ass to prove a point.

[Gleipnir]

darn, I guess you are right! we should just give up this fight against the Taliban and Al Quada and terrorism. bulldoze our schools, execute all school teachers and christians, buddists, etc, and get some Korans and head sheets. Don't know why it took me so long to get it.

Your sarcasm has done little to convince me of how one can defining 'winning' the conflict in Afghanistan or the war on terror.

Al Quada? What's that?

Apologies for being literal but I am in no way suggested or condoned what this gentleman has suggested in the form of me being 'right'.

I am all for removing the threat the Taliban pose to Afghanistan and to keeping civilians outside of war zones safe. I just feel that the perception of achieving this goal by 'winning' the war through conventional means needs ingenuity and re-examination. (please don't interpret this as me saying peace is the answer, it isn't- again apologies for being so literal)

I am a strong believer in hearts and minds style operations and aggressive patrolling. I am also in favour of creating 'new towns' as was done in the Malayan emergency.

Obama isn't a Muslim- he didn't say the war is a mistake.

[Laworkerbee]

I am a strong believer in hearts and minds style operations and aggressive patrolling. I am also in favour of creating 'new towns' as was done in the Malayan emergency.

Do you realize the ramifications of what would happen if any Western country tried to implement what was done in the Malayan emergency; they would be screaming about concentration camps and the like!

[commanding]

Your sarcasm has done little to convince me of how one can defining 'winning' the conflict in Afghanistan or the war on terror.

Al Quada? What's that?

Apologies for being literal but I am in no way suggested or condoned what this gentleman has suggested in the form of me being 'right'.

I am all for removing the threat the Taliban pose to Afghanistan and to keeping civilians outside of war zones safe. I just feel that the perception of achieving this goal by 'winning' the war through conventional means needs ingenuity and re-examination. (please don't interpret this as me saying peace is the answer, it isn't- again apologies for being so literal)

I am a strong believer in hearts and minds style operations and aggressive patrolling. I am also in favour of creating 'new towns' as was done in the Malayan emergency.

Obama isn't a Muslim- he didn't say the war is a mistake.
++++++++++++++
Obama isn't a muslim. I never said he was, and don't think he is. Bet my hat on it. My job is not to convince you of anything...I checked my contract, it ain't in there.

Al-Qaeda is a group of terrorists, Islamic radicals. You may remember they flew some of our passenger planes into the Pentagon (where I used to work) and into the World Trade center buildings about 7 years ago..that is if my memory serves. You may want to research them, as they pose a continued threat to darn near everyone, and from what I understand completely enjoy slitting throats of folks like you and me.

[socom6]

heh well not so much. I just dislike seeing hard-earned results go to waste. Whenever we change administrations it's bound to happen - but the stakes are pretty high here. Maybe if Obama would try something really new I wouldn't be bent outta shape. This just seems to be a return to our half-assed pre 2001 stance...that got us here in the first place. Weren't we all mutual respecty and living together in peace and harmony until somebody pushed the issue by crashing some planes into our buildings?

Yes what you say there is true 2Sheds, I understand what you say. Still I see Obama trying to isolate the religious fanatics from the moderates by talking a different tack to appease their fears and soothe their hurt after GW radically forced them to come to grips with their recalcitrant fanatic brethren of whom they esteemed in private.

[commanding]

I am all for removing the threat the Taliban pose to Afghanistan and to keeping civilians outside of war zones safe. .

by the way, since you have this all figured out, how do you propose to keep civilians outside of war zones safe? Can you define an area in Afghanistan that is not a war zone for me please?

[Macs.]

darn, I guess you are right! we should just give up this fight against the Taliban and Al Quada and terrorism. bulldoze our schools, execute all school teachers and christians, buddists, etc, and get some Korans and head sheets. Don't know why it took me so long to get it.

"We" should first of all make up our mind of what we really want. The "Global War On Terror" or the complete destruction of terror is a unrealistic goal that will never be reached.

The basic reason to invade Afghanistan was a reaction to 9/11 and it's connection which was Al-Kaida. Article 5 came into play, and OEF was rolling. With OEF we now also have ISAF which has the goal of developing and securing Afghanistan.

So with revenging the attacks of 9/11 and getting those behind it, we also have a operation of securing and developing a """nation""" that is split by ethnic "differences" (To put it lightly), a gigantic drug market, influence by neighbouring nations, islamic terrorism, criminals, poverty. Meanwhile islamic terrorists/Al-Kaida don't need Afghanistan for carrying out attacks on the west anyway. Sleeper cells, the internet, and no need for a clear command structur make some people question the war in Afghanistan. Not because they love islamic terrorists, but because we have to ask ourselvs if the goals that are to be archived are worth the commitment and if they are realistic.

[eATS]

it sounds even worse translated through the german version


Tuesday, 27 January 2009 " We were not perfekt" Obama hands the hand to Muslims The new US president Barack Obama handed symbolically the hand to the Muslims in all world. " The Americans are not your Feinde" , Obama in an interview with in Dubai the resident said television station Al Arabija. Opposite Iran the 47-Jährige affirmed the offer of a direct diplomacy. Iran reacted first avoiding. " We made errors, were not perfekt" we sometimes; , Obama said. A view into history shows however that the USA " not when colonial power geboren" are. It does not give a reason, why " of respect and Partnerschaft" coined/shaped relations, which the USA " before 20 or 30 Jahren" to the Muslim world would have maintained, not to be restored could. " Common dreams and Hoffnungen" It lived several years in Indonesia and traveled much by Muslim countries, said Obama. This convinced it of the fact that humans would have common dreams and hopes independently of their faith. The former democratic senator from Illinois had promised during the election campaign to improve the relations of the USA with the Muslim world. Discussion offer at Iran Opposite Iran Obama affirmed its offer of a direct diplomacy. " As I already said in my inaugural speech: If countries are ready like Iran to do without the clenched fist them are erwarten" our stretched hand; , Obama said. In the next months its government will prepare a strategy for handling Iran. It is importantly, " all instruments of US power, including the Diplomatie" to use. The new US Foreign Minister Hillary Clinton requested in the meantime Iran to deal with the discussion offer of the president. Teheran " the opportunity, its readiness for one; serious Dialog" with the international community to manifest, Clinton in Washington said. In the question of the Iranian nuclear programme Clinton wants to continue co-operation with the five constant members in the UN security council as well as Germany. As spokesperson of the US State Department communicated Robert Wood, a meeting on level of the political directors in Germany is planned in the coming week. Teheran holds back itself Iran reacted reservedly. One waits first of all for actual changes in the US politics and requires an overcoming of the imperialistic efforts of Washington, said government spokesmen Gholam Hossein Elham in Teheran. The Iranian president Mahmud Ahmadinedschad had explained in the middle of the month, would welcome, should to Teheran the changes announced by Obama her become true. Iran is " with the new US Government; Patience haben". It and the entire guidance hoped, after nearly three decades of the confrontation for an improvement of the relations with Washington. Falls out since 1980 The UN security council already imposed three times sanctions against Iran, because it holds despite international criticism to its disputed nuclear programme. The USA and their western allied ones accuse to the country to work secretly on the building from atom bombs to. Teheran denies this and pounds on its right to be allowed to enrich as signers of the Nuclear NONPROLIFERATION Treaty uranium for civilian purposes. Obama had explained in the election campaign, a government under its guidance wanted to overcome for three decades the existing suspension of direct discussions with Teheran. Washington and Teheran had broken their diplomatic relations off 1980. Also with the switching between Israelis and Palestinians Obama wants to engage itself strengthened. The new US special envoy George Mitchell arrived on Tuesday to first discussions in Cairo. Arrests in Yemen In Yemen the police arrested meanwhile three armed ones close of the US embassy in the capital Sanaa. The arresting would have shot on Monday evening from a driving car at the police in the proximity embassy building, communicated the local security forces. The US embassy received an attack threat. In the past months it has plants of the oil industry as well as security forces in Yemen repeats attacks against messages, given.

[commanding]

"We" should first of all make up our mind of what we really want. The "Global War On Terror" or the complete destruction of terror is a unrealistic goal that will never be reached.. Agreed!


"The basic reason to invade Afghanistan was a reaction to 9/11 and it's connection which was Al-Kaida. Article 5 came into play, and OEF was rolling. With OEF we now also have ISAF which has the goal of developing and securing Afghanistan.

So with revenging the attacks of 9/11 and getting those behind it, we also have a operation of securing and developing a """nation""" that is split by ethnic "differences" (To put it lightly), a gigantic drug market, influence by neighbouring nations, islamic terrorism, criminals, poverty. Meanwhile islamic terrorists/Al-Kaida don't need Afghanistan for carrying out attacks on the west anyway. Sleeper cells, the internet, and no need for a clear command structur make some people question the war in Afghanistan. Not because they love islamic terrorists, but because we have to ask ourselvs if the goals that are to be archived are worth the commitment and if they are realistic.
Agree again!
However....there will always be people who question stuff. That's okay, good in fact. To cut the Al-Kaida down to size, it's gonna take time, money, man power, cooperation, etc, etc. It's not like something anyone has done before because of their loose command structure and non centralized operations.
However, it can be done.

[Gunbird]

darn, I guess you are right! we should just give up this fight against the Taliban and Al Quada and terrorism. bulldoze our schools, execute all school teachers and christians, buddists, etc, and get some Korans and head sheets. Don't know why it took me so long to get it.

I realize this is a military forum, so people like to entertain pure military solutions.

This idea that we'll defeat Al Qaeda is a myth. It's a myth because Al Qaeda as is popularly referenced does not exist. There is no expansive world-wide coordinated Al Qaeda network.

The vast majority of groups referred to as Al Qaeda really have nothing to do with each other. The vast majority of these groups are indigenous growths with their own indigenous goals.

How do you defeat something that is practically a ghost? Al-Qaeda’s remnants remain in Waziristan, weak and damn near unimportant. You don't defeat it with missiles, you defeat it with excellent intelligence, logistics, psyops. That doesn't mean we do nothing when the hydra reveals its head, but this idea that we're going to have some kind of clear victory is pure romantic gung-hooie. It's not going to happen.

Modernity and prosperity defeats these movements, inspiration defeats these movements, opportunity defeats these movements. You give people something to dream about, something to strive towards and something to feel proud of and the inclination to join terror evaporates into thin air, like magic. That's why it's so important we help create infrastructure, improve living conditions, and give opportunity. The only thing that will defeat these terrorist groups, are substantial improvements within the societies from where they are born, or morally affiliated.

If you want to read a good book on this issue, try Leaderless Jihad: Terror Networks in the Twenty-First Century.

http://www.amazon.com/Leaderless-Jihad-Networks-Twenty-First-Century/dp/0812240650

[CPL Trevoga]

Nice one Pr. Obama, "bad cop-good cop."

[sinophile]

Modernity and prosperity defeats these movements, inspiration defeats these movements, opportunity defeats these movements. You give people something to dream about, something to strive towards and something to feel proud of and the inclination to join terror evaporates into thin air, like magic. That's why it's so important we help create infrastructure, improve living conditions, and give opportunity. The only thing that will defeat these terrorist groups, are substantial improvements within the societies from where they are born, or morally affiliated.

The problem is your use of the word, "You".

Benevolent dictatorships pulled Europe, China, Japan and others out of feudalism, into modernity, by way of long and bloody conflict (before the age of Al Jazeera and CNN). I doubt its possible today, and am skeptical the change you're talking about is even possible.

I wish I felt differently.

[socom6]

I realize this is a military forum, so people like to entertain pure military solutions.

This idea that we'll defeat Al Qaeda is a myth. It's a myth because Al Qaeda as is popularly referenced does not exist. There is no expansive world-wide coordinated Al Qaeda network.

The vast majority of groups referred to as Al Qaeda really have nothing to do with each other. The vast majority of these groups are indigenous growths with their own indigenous goals.

How do you defeat something that is practically a ghost? Al-Qaeda’s remnants remain in Waziristan, weak and damn near unimportant. You don't defeat it with missiles, you defeat it with excellent intelligence, logistics, psyops. That doesn't mean we do nothing when the hydra reveals its head, but this idea that we're going to have some kind of clear victory is pure romantic gung-hooie. It's not going to happen.

Modernity and prosperity defeats these movements, inspiration defeats these movements, opportunity defeats these movements. You give people something to dream about, something to strive towards and something to feel proud of and the inclination to join terror evaporates into thin air, like magic. That's why it's so important we help create infrastructure, improve living conditions, and give opportunity. The only thing that will defeat these terrorist groups, are substantial improvements within the societies from where they are born, or morally affiliated.

If you want to read a good book on this issue, try Leaderless Jihad: Terror Networks in the Twenty-First Century.

http://www.amazon.com/Leaderless-Jihad-Networks-Twenty-First-Century/dp/0812240650

I wonder what turned al qaida into "practically a ghost" and "damn near unimportant" eh? :cantbeli:Something nasty must have happened to them.

[Expert Marksman 126]

Yes we did make a mistake, that mistake had a name,...W. Bush. We can sit here and apologize until we get blue in the face, but the Muslim community is still going to want to kill us. We can get out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and its still going to be the same.... WE are the Infidels according to them, but i do applaud Obama for at least trying to fix our international image, but honestly i think that we are wasting our time.

Small side note. Muslims have been pissed for years. Way before Bush. They attacked us in the opening months of his presidency. He had done nothing to them at that point. We made no mistake. We are not in this war to make friends. I personally could care less if they hate us, because I dont like them very much either. They just lose me somewhere between "Death" and "America".

George W. Bush kept us safe. He did his job. He made mistakes on domestic issues, but that was because he spent the majority of his time preventing terrorist attacks. Get past it. He's done.

[Gleipnir]

Where, when and what part of the country are you talking about? Unless of course you are simply talking out of your ass to prove a point.

I was using a hypothetical situation and my ass doesn't speak English or know how to type.


Do you realize the ramifications of what would happen if any Western country tried to implement what was done in the Malayan emergency; they would be screaming about concentration camps and the like!

Let them scream, there are plenty of people screaming that the war is wrong anyway.


++++++++++++++
Obama isn't a muslim. I never said he was, and don't think he is. Bet my hat on it. My job is not to convince you of anything...I checked my contract, it ain't in there.

Al-Qaeda is a group of terrorists, Islamic radicals. You may remember they flew some of our passenger planes into the Pentagon (where I used to work) and into the World Trade center buildings about 7 years ago..that is if my memory serves. You may want to research them, as they pose a continued threat to darn near everyone, and from what I understand completely enjoy slitting throats of folks like you and me.

You are right about you not saying he was- I should have made it clear that this wasn't directed at you.

Asking who Al Qaeda is was a joke.


by the way, since you have this all figured out, how do you propose to keep civilians outside of war zones safe? Can you define an area in Afghanistan that is not a war zone for me please?

I don't have this figured out at all.
When referring to civilians in places that aren't war zones I meant the USA, Europe, etc. I didn't mean Afghanistan.

I merely wanted to start a dialogue about how members here perceived winning the war in Afghanistan. I was curious if people had any ideas or thoughts, maybe I went about it the wrong way.

Thanks to Macs for a great post, that was the kind I was looking for.


I realize this is a military forum, so people like to entertain pure military solutions.

This idea that we'll defeat Al Qaeda is a myth. It's a myth because Al Qaeda as is popularly referenced does not exist. There is no expansive world-wide coordinated Al Qaeda network.

The vast majority of groups referred to as Al Qaeda really have nothing to do with each other. The vast majority of these groups are indigenous growths with their own indigenous goals.

How do you defeat something that is practically a ghost? Al-Qaeda’s remnants remain in Waziristan, weak and damn near unimportant. You don't defeat it with missiles, you defeat it with excellent intelligence, logistics, psyops. That doesn't mean we do nothing when the hydra reveals its head, but this idea that we're going to have some kind of clear victory is pure romantic gung-hooie. It's not going to happen.


I appreciate this quote, thanks- this is the kind of stuff I am looking for.
Apologies for not making myself clear.

[delio]

State [Department] monitoring Obama arab reaction (http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/01/27/1763848.aspx)

by Domenico Montanaro

From NBC’s Libby Leist

Since President Obama's interview with Al Arabiya last night, State Department public diplomacy officials have been closely monitoring reaction in the Arab media -- TV, newspapers, radio and blogs -- to get a sense for how the interview is playing.

The State Department is busy preparing a report for the White House on what they've observed and, so far, the reaction has been a very positive one.

In reviewing Arab media commentary, officials say, two messages seem to have resonated: Obama's focus on listening and not dictating U.S. policy and his emphasis on the fact that he has lived in the Muslim world and has Muslim family members.

"I think that his mention of his familiarity with the Muslim world and respect for Islam was taken very well,” one official, who served under the Bush administration and now Obama, told NBC News. “That got a lot of positive commentary."
He added, "There's long been a belief that the U.S. was opposed to Islam."
The official was careful to note, however, that despite the positive reaction to Obama's overture, there was also a "wait-and-see" attitude about the direction of U.S. policies in the region, specifically on the Arab-Israeli issue.
Also interesting, Al Arabiya's Arab satellite rival Al Jazeera has been low key about the interview, mostly out of competitive reasons. They've barely mentioned it, the official said.

In addition to a close review of news and blog sites, U.S. Embassies in the region have today been informally surveying the public for reaction, officials say.

A State Department official read to NBC News a few of the emails coming in from posts abroad.

The U.S. Embassy in Cairo reports: "We are getting overwhelmingly positive feedback from bloggers and contacts in country. Their main points are that they were highly impressed..." that he gave his first TV interview to an Arab satellite channel.

In Saudi Arabia, a newspaper editor told the embassy, "The reader reaction that he's getting so far is astonishingly positive."

In the United Arab Emirates, the embassy said, "Anecdotal public reaction has been highly positive."

[Atlantic Friend]

I didn't say a thing about something preventing the pres from saying whatever the hell is on his mind. I was countering you saying the divide in the USA is already here.

Honestly, when Democrats are regularly called "libtards" and Republicans goons or Fascists, and this apparently at a time of war (or so we are told from time to time), I really do think that the big divide is here.

In the past 10 years or so we've seen ordinary political activists, pundits and leading politicians from both camps used attacks on US soil, deaths of US soldiers and acts of terrorism worldwide to further their agenda and "prove" their opponents wrong, however hard they had to twist facts to make a point.

In this respect, OBL's declaration, I think, owes as much to that urge to proclaim the former Administration incompetent as it does to some appeal to part of the Muslim world.

[freethinker]

Now that you have a pushover president its time to move in for the kill.

[commanding]

Honestly, when Democrats are regularly called "libtards" and Republicans goons or Fascists, and this apparently at a time of war (or so we are told from time to time), I really do think that the big divide is here.

In the past 10 years or so we've seen ordinary political activists, pundits and leading politicians from both camps used attacks on US soil, deaths of US soldiers and acts of terrorism worldwide to further their agenda and "prove" their opponents wrong, however hard they had to twist facts to make a point.

In this respect, OBL's declaration, I think, owes as much to that urge to proclaim the former Administration incompetent as it does to some appeal to part of the Muslim world.

It all depends on the issue! When one is speaking about the war in Afghanistan, the war in Iraq and the war on terror, most folks in liberated countries "pull together". They may disagree on OTHER issues like abortion, domestic gun control, etc. Sometimes those issues get heated. However...on a whole,I think the US, France, Austalia, Germany, UK, and many many other "free" countries, (too many to list individually) agree on ending terrorism in anyway possible. Political agendas need to be put aside on that issue.
Short version: don't confuse one issue, with all issues on the political front. OBL will end up either dead at the hands of allied troops, or in prison for the rest of his beastly life.

[firemedic]

Yes we did make a mistake, that mistake had a name,...W. Bush. We can sit here and apologize until we get blue in the face, but the Muslim community is still going to want to kill us. We can get out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and its still going to be the same.... WE are the Infidels according to them, but i do applaud Obama for at least trying to fix our international image, but honestly i think that we are wasting our time. .........So while you sit here claiming Bush was such a huge mistake, and throwing your opinion around, regardless of the fact that nobody seemed to mind that we were safe within our own borders and John Q Public could go to the mall without worrying about suicide bombers, what solutions do you have? do you bring something to the table besides another round of Bush bashing? just curious.

[khalsa1699]

i think Obama made a mistake.....his apology will gove more fodder to the canons of jehadi to chant more against the Great Satan USA!

he has proved them right (according to their own beliefs)

[11 Bravo]

Some words, gestures of kindness made in our culture will be taken as weakness attestation in others... wanna bet?

And don't think with oblahma's upbringing he knows this all too well. We are being set up by the messiah.

[California Joe]

And don't think with oblahma's upbringing he knows this all too well. We are being set up by the messiah.

You mean being raised by white Grandparents in Hawaii? Surfing makes you ****e to deception?

The whole childish name misspelling thing is sofaking witty by the way. We're all dazzled. You should probably be hanging out at the Algonquin Roundtable.