Gazze , Israil , Turkey and rising racism...

[HangPC2]

Erdogan receives hero's welcome



Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:25:27 GMT





http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9731/20009erdoganheroqz1.jpg

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan speaks to reporters after he receives a hero's welcome for a spat with Israel.



Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan receives a hero's welcome on his return home after his spat with Israel over its war on Gaza.



Erdogan stormed off stage at the World Economic Forum in the Swiss resort of Davos on Thursday during a heated discussion over Israel's 23-day assault on the Gaza Strip.

He told Israeli President Shimon Peres, who had launched a fiery defense of Tel Aviv's attack on the coastal enclave over the past month, that Israel "knows very well how to kill".

More than 1,330 Palestinians, a third of them children, were killed and 5,450 others injured since Israel waged its Cast Lead Operation against Gaza on December 27.

The Turkish premier vowed he would never return to the annual gathering of the rich and powerful in Davos.

Around 3,000 supporters gathered at Istanbul's Ataturk airport on Friday, waving red and white Turkish flags and banners reading "Conqueror of Davos" upon Erdogan arrival.

Many carried banners denouncing Israel, a move which raises concern among the Jewish State as Ankara is its closest ally in the Islamic world.

"I did what I had to do," Erdogan told reporters gathered at the airport, adding, "I cannot remain apathetic when it comes to these things, it's just not in my nature. I am duty-bound to defend the honor of my country."

He said that he was not "at heart a diplomat but a politician."


SF/DT


- Press TV -

[HangPC2]

Turkey opposes military monitoring in Middle East



Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:25:28 GMT





Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has ruled out sending military forces to monitor the border crossings in the Gaza Strip.



"Ankara will consider sending only civilian forces to Palestine to ensure a durable ceasefire," Hurriyat quoted Erdogan as saying on Monday.

Erdogan's remark came after Hamas told Egyptian mediators that it was willing to deploy European and Turkish monitors at the Rafah crossing.

Turkey has expressed readiness to participate in an international monitoring force for Gaza. It currently plays an active role in carrying out peacekeeping missions in the West Bank city of Hebron and Lebanon in the Middle East, as well as in Afghanistan and Kosovo.

Meanwhile, a Hamas official Ayman Taha told reporters that the movement accepts Turkish observers to be part of the monitoring system. He was speaking after his talks with Egyptian intelligence officials in Cairo.

"We are open to the presence of European observers, Turkish observers and forces from Gaza's national security to open (Rafah) on a temporary basis until the formation of a national unity government," he was quoted by AFP as saying.

He added the matter of Rafah is "complex and thorny."

Egyptian authorities have sealed off the Rafah border crossing into Gaza by deploying troops to the terminal, despite the dire humanitarian situation in the heavily bombarded coastal strip, which has been under a 19-month siege.

Hamas has sharply criticized Cairo for refusing to keep the crossing open to wounded Palestinian people during the deadly Israeli offensive which killed nearly 1,330 Palestinians, mostly civilians.



SF/SME


- Press TV -

[HangPC2]

Ottoman Empire Is Back.............


http://img.iht.com/images/2009/01/30/30davos-turkey550.jpg

[Karaahmetoglu]

As I recall Erdogan's main speech was not stopped by the moderator, and he carried his entire speech. The fact that Peres's speech was longer doesn't matter, like Erdogan had the chance to take his all speech, so did Peres.

An idiot is a PM who goes around and tell other leaders that his country is planning an attack. PM Olmert did the right thing by not telling Erdogan about the up coming attack, and I'm sure that Erdogan would have done the same thing if he was planing an attack, so as a PM he should understand it.
Erdogan is a PM in an Arab country, and he is close to Assad, and if Olmert would have told Erdogan about the attack, the "news" would probably reach Assad and then straight to Hamas's leaders in Syria.
Reasonable act by Olmert to save the chances of success of the first strike.

Turkey is not an Arab country, but it is a Muslim Majority.

[Karaahmetoglu]

PM Tayyip reduced image of my country to below zero. Language was impolite and aggressive. It is not about politically being correct or incorrect, my complaint is about the level of the language.

I feel ashamed seeing a Muslim Georgian talking in the name of Turks and destroying my country's image. :oops:


What does him being a Georgian have anything to do with this. He has done nothing for Georgia, he is not pro-Georgia.
P.S A family member of mine went to the place where he claims to be from (in Georgia), and the people there say that they do not know of his family.

[gangan]

From day to day turkey reminds me more and more of IRAN, and this fu***** erdogan seems like he's in some contest with Ahmenijad who's the biggest dumbass.

[ggk]

^^^^^ is it me or do i see a patern here?

[kamaz]

Erdrogan give a heros welcome for being a douche at a respected conference. Turkey going back to pre-Ataturk state, with an Islamist PM now a national hero. Good times, good times.

[yond]

Turkey is not an Arab country, but it is a Muslim Majority.

I stand corrected. Thanks.

Still good for my point.

[ggk]

Erdrogan give a heros welcome for being a douche at a respected conference. Turkey going back to pre-Ataturk state, with an Islamist PM now a national hero. Good times, good times.

how is that related? are you saying Erdogan want to become a Sultan?

[Alienoz]

What does him being a Georgian have anything to do with this. He has done nothing for Georgia, he is not pro-Georgia.
P.S A family member of mine went to the place where he claims to be from (in Georgia), and the people there say that they do not know of his family.

Have you heard him calling "I am a Turk"? I did not. He says "Turkiyeli" the one from Turkiye.

I am not part of this problem. I could care less if he doesnt speak in the name of my people. He tries to damage Turkish nationalists, tries to befriend himself with Armenians and Northern Iraqis. Then he comes and insults (literally) Israelis by calling "you know how to kill" etc... Something is terribly wrong. I feel disturbed by the act of him and his ideology. He did not show the same anger when our soldiers martyred. He did not respect our martyred soldiers either.

He is more Arab than Arabs. Like being King supporter more than King himself. That is what I meant.

[m.i.t]

From day to day turkey reminds me more and more of IRAN, .


Your choice your decision .... İf you are determined to gain new unnecessary enemies go ahead...

Fortunately Israel goverment much more smart and mature people than some israeli MP.NEt members...



After forum president Peres called with phone PM. Erdogan.





Peres; Dostlar arasında böyle şeyler olur, bugün olanlar için son derece üzgünüm. Her şeyden önce Türkiye Cumhuriyeti'ne ve Başbakan olarak size olan saygım ve takdirim hiçbir zaman değişmedi.

Peres: .sometimes can be happened like that things between friends .l m so sorry for today what happeneds . My great respect and admiration has never changed to you as a Prime Minister and your Republic of Turkey .

Erdoğan; Tabii her şeyden önce dostlar kendi aralarında şüphesiz ki tartışma yaparlar, ama uluslararası bir toplulukta böyle bir kabile lideriyle değil, Türkiye Cumhuriyeti'nin lideriyle yüksek sesle böyle konuşulmaz.

Erdogan: ofcourse friends can disguss everything everythime...
But l m not clan leader .You can not speak loudly with PM of Turkey in international meeting .


Peres; Sesimi yükselttim. Zira arkadaşlarım sesimin az çıktığını ve anlaşılamadığını söylerler. Bunun, (sesimin yüksek çıkmasının) Türkiye Cumhuriyeti'nin Başbakanıyla ilişkimle hiçbir ilgisi yoktur. Bugün olanlar için üzgünüm.

Peres : l spoke loudly cuz my friends told me many forumers couldnt hear my speech. İts definetely not about PM of Turkey.
l m sorry for today.



Erdoğan; Biraz sonra bir basın toplantısı yapacağınızı duydum.

l heard that you will make a press speech soon.

Peres; Bugün değil, yarın.

Not today.tomorrow.

Erdoğan; Yarın yapacağınız basın toplantısında şu anki samimi duygularınızı açıklayabilirseniz, öyle zannediyorum ki bu sıkıntı bir ölçüde giderilmiş olur.

İf you state your current honest thoughts in the press speech

tomorrow , l think it can assist for annoyance..


Peres; Elbette bu söylediklerimi basına da (Publicly) aynen ifade ederim.

Offcourse.l will state them tomorrow to press.


Erdoğan; Telefonunuz için teşekkür ederim Sayın Cumhurbaşkanı.
thanks for call dear president

Peres; Ben de size teşekkür ediyorum iyi yolculuklar dilerim.

l thank you too. Good flights ...


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

l think it doesnt seem hostile calling between leaders ...

[Alienoz]

how is that related? are you saying Erdogan want to become a Sultan?

Some people here and outside have problems with Turkish identity of Turkish State. They want some what Ottoman Empire back. They dont feel happy when the State and its ideology praises Turkish/Turkic causes.

[Karaahmetoglu]

Have you heard him calling "I am a Turk"? I did not. He says "Turkiyeli" the one from Turkiye.

I am not part of this problem. I could care less if he doesnt speak in the name of my people. He tries to damage Turkish nationalists, tries to befriend himself with Armenians and Northern Iraqis. Then he comes and insults (literally) Israelis by calling "you know how to kill" etc... Something is terribly wrong. I feel disturbed by the act of him and his ideology. He did not show the same anger when our soldiers martyred. He did not respect our martyred soldiers either.

He is more Arab than Arabs. Like being King supporter more than King himself. That is what I meant.


You are right. The line he is more Arab than the Arabs is so true. You are also correct by saying he is more into this then our own issues. Because of him we have just lost the Israeli Lobbyist groups support. Now the "Armenian Genocide" bill will past for sure in the U.S.

[gangan]

Your choice your decision .... İf you are determined to gain new unnecessary enemies go ahead...

Fortunately Israel goverment much more smart and mature people than some israeli MP.NEt members...



After forum president Peres called with phone PM. Erdogan.





Peres; Dostlar arasında böyle şeyler olur, bugün olanlar için son derece üzgünüm. Her şeyden önce Türkiye Cumhuriyeti'ne ve Başbakan olarak size olan saygım ve takdirim hiçbir zaman değişmedi.

Peres: .sometimes can be happened like that things between friends .l m so sorry for today what happeneds . My great respect and admiration has never changed to you as a Prime Minister and your Republic of Turkey .

Erdoğan; Tabii her şeyden önce dostlar kendi aralarında şüphesiz ki tartışma yaparlar, ama uluslararası bir toplulukta böyle bir kabile lideriyle değil, Türkiye Cumhuriyeti'nin lideriyle yüksek sesle böyle konuşulmaz.

Erdogan: ofcourse friends can disguss everything everythime...
But l m not clan leader .You can not speak loudly with PM of Turkey in international meeting .


Peres; Sesimi yükselttim. Zira arkadaşlarım sesimin az çıktığını ve anlaşılamadığını söylerler. Bunun, (sesimin yüksek çıkmasının) Türkiye Cumhuriyeti'nin Başbakanıyla ilişkimle hiçbir ilgisi yoktur. Bugün olanlar için üzgünüm.

Peres : l spoke loudly cuz my friends told me many forumers couldnt hear my speech. İts definetely not about PM of Turkey.
l m sorry for today.



Erdoğan; Biraz sonra bir basın toplantısı yapacağınızı duydum.

l heard that you will make a press speech soon.

Peres; Bugün değil, yarın.

Not today.tomorrow.

Erdoğan; Yarın yapacağınız basın toplantısında şu anki samimi duygularınızı açıklayabilirseniz, öyle zannediyorum ki bu sıkıntı bir ölçüde giderilmiş olur.

İf you state your current honest thoughts in the press speech

tomorrow , l think it can assist for annoyance..


Peres; Elbette bu söylediklerimi basına da (Publicly) aynen ifade ederim.

Offcourse.l will state them tomorrow to press.


Erdoğan; Telefonunuz için teşekkür ederim Sayın Cumhurbaşkanı.
thanks for call dear president

Peres; Ben de size teşekkür ediyorum iyi yolculuklar dilerim.

l thank you too. Good flights ...


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

l think it doesnt seem hostile calling between leaders ...


with friends like this who needs enemies.....?

[Ulytau]

Erdrogan give a heros welcome for being a douche at a respected conference. Turkey going back to pre-Ataturk state, with an Islamist PM now a national hero. Good times, good times.

Only wanted to say Ataturk mean soul of the Turkiye..Just watchin some media so sorry i must say that with laughin my a**.

When many Turks critize Erdogan same medias were saying DEMOCRACY when army warn some deputies ''Now we wont see em much'' same medias were saying DEMOCRACY..

When they start to hear what they dont want they startin to say same words and writing analysis honestly they neednt that and they neednt pay to experts if they asked a Turkish Primary School kid she/he can say similar words too..

[kamaz]

Only wanted to say Ataturk mean soul of the Turkiye..Just watchin some media so sorry i must say that with laughin my a**.

When many Turks critize Erdogan same medias were saying DEMOCRACY when army warn some deputies ''Now we wont see em much'' same medias were saying DEMOCRACY..

When they start to hear what they dont want they startin to say same words and writing analysis honestly they neednt that and they neednt pay to experts if they asked a Turkish Primary School kid she/he can say similar words too..

?? I'm not sure what youre trying to say here.

[Ulytau]

?? I'm not sure what youre trying to say here.

I mean when Turks critize Erdogan bout same things many Turks were seein democracy ''WORDS'' from same media like Financial Times etc. today funny thing they saying same things when they start to hear Erdogan what they dont want to hear..

Especially rememberin when Army warned some politicians rofl

And bout national hero issue;

Ataturk is the Soul of the Turkish Republic ;)

[Zeev]

I say it before and I say it again, turks are muslims, you cannot ignore the fact that they have naturaly more reasons to support palestinians than Israelis, as well as they supported during balkan wars albanians and muslim bosnians against the serbian orthodox ennemy.

Now the turkish streets show more than never the clear support to the palestinians. Their integrist president also. So both the people and the head of the Turkish state show toghether their hostility toward israel. How can we consider them as allies by now??

I never saw them as allies anyway, joint military exercices and weapons trade doesn't mean that we're friends. This just have a name, common interests. And because of these common interests, I have no illusions: Israel won't do anything to retaliate to the behavior of the turkish gvt and people. sadly.

[4X4Driver]

?? I'm not sure what youre trying to say here.


This is what he's trying to say;



Ending Ataturk's experiment and restoring the Muslim caliphate it supplanted has long been a goal of Islamofascists, adherents to a dangerous political movement whose global reach and terrorist methods have largely been enabled by decades of investment by the world's repressive Islamist regimes, led by Saudi Arabia. The rise of Islamofascism has prompted some in the West to hope Turkey would continue to serve as a model for the Muslim world even after an avowed Islamist named Recep Tayyip Erdogan in 2002 parlayed a minority of votes into a monopoly of power.
This delusion contributed to the European Union allowing its negotiations for Turkish accession to the EU to be skillfully used by Mr. Erdogan to checkmate Turkey's military. Thus, had the armed forces acted to prevent Mr. Erdogan's creeping Islamofascist coup against the country's secular institutions and traditions, they would have been blamed for keeping Turkey "out of Europe."


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/mar/13/20060313-094413-3980r/

[Eye]

joint military exercices and weapons trade doesn't mean that we're friends. This just have a name, common interests. And because of these common interests,
I don't think there exist something like friendship between states. There can be only common interests.

[4X4Driver]

I say it before and I say it again, turks are muslims, you cannot ignore the fact that they have naturaly more reasons to support palestinians than Israelis, as well as they supported during balkan wars albanians and muslim bosnians against the serbian orthodox ennemy.

Now the turkish streets show more than never the clear support to the palestinians. Their integrist president also. So both the people and the head of the Turkish state show toghether their hostility toward israel. How can we consider them as allies by now??

I never saw them as allies anyway, joint military exercices and weapons trade doesn't mean that we're friends. This just have a name, common interests. And because of these common interests, I have no illusions: Israel won't do anything to retaliate to the behavior of the turkish gvt and people. sadly.

Well..you keep it up with generalizing the whole country like this, your wishes will definetely come true.

[Zeev]

Well..you keep it up with generalizing the whole country like this, your wishes will definetely come true.

I'll change my mind when I'll see turkish people in rallys, supporting israel.

I would like to add one thing. The israeli gvt or people never criticized your military operations in kurdistan or even in Iraki territory when terrorists attacked your soldiers or your civilians, we never said a word about that. unlike Turkey did for the last operations in gaza.

I call that backstabbing.

[Zeev]

I don't think there exist something like friendship between states. There can be only common interests.

UK and the US?

[Ulytau]

Turkey would continue to serve as a model for the Muslim world even after an avowed Islamist named

As i read from the Turkish Intellectual people ''Some of em lost their life and when we start doing operations aganist this men some Human Rights Reports start to say Turkiye doing bad things to believers'' this wish think which come from the Cold War times using religion key aganist Soviet Union cause especially National Countries totally dangerous rights of the some international businesss.

[kvk1]

I'll change my mind when I'll see turkish people in rallys, supporting israel.

I can't believe the generalizations going on here. You cannot all think this is a issue that is this black and white. If what you were all saying were true the relationship between the two countries would have been over decades ago.

The Turkey that supports Israel isn't in the camp of making retarded banners and mindlessly wandering streets like zombies chanting sh*t they don't know anything about.

The Turkey that supports Israel is in the camp of working in the background in POSITIONS OF ACTUAL IMPORTANCE for damage control in case something like this happens. They're in the camp that includes high levels of government and back channel diplomacy to truly dictate what the blueprint of our relationship is. They're the ones busting ass to make sure the world knows these shenanigans are unique to Erdogan and a PARTICULAR SLIVER of his supporters.

If you're blind to this then we're in deep. F'ing meet us halfway. This **** is complicated and believe me a substantial amount of Turks from all walks of lives and careers are not happy with what's going on.

A bit off track:

No Turkey is not Iran.

No, regardless of how big of a ****wad he is Erdogan isn't Mahmoud.

No this isn't the Ottoman Empire. It's the Republic of Turkey.

You guys are seriously acting like the Arab medias you're criticizing and going all sensational-fest 2009 over here. Turkey is still a secular and democratic country with a constitution, courts and the whole nine. If you think any substantial change is going to happen or happened from today to a few years ago you're playing right into the game of motherf*ckers like Erdogan.

[4X4Driver]

I'll change my mind when I'll see turkish people in rallys, supporting israel.

That's a very lame demand and you have no right to ask this from us. Our struggle against the radical fundementalism is a lot longer than the history of the state of Israel. We'll keep fighting against it only for ourselves.


I would like to add one thing. The israeli gvt or people never criticized your military operations in kurdistan or even in Iraki territory when terrorists attacked your soldiers or your civilians, we never said a word about that. unlike Turkey did for the last operations in gaza.

I call that backstabbing.

I'll admit that you guys are much more clever in backstabbing by doing it smoothly. We also know that your military personnel has been training ppl in this so called kurdistan.

[Alienoz]

I'll change my mind when I'll see turkish people in rallys, supporting israel.

I would like to add one thing. The israeli gvt or people never criticized your military operations in kurdistan or even in Iraki territory when terrorists attacked your soldiers or your civilians, we never said a word about that. unlike Turkey did for the last operations in gaza.

I call that backstabbing.

1) There is no such geographic place like kurdistan. It is an invention by outsiders.

2) I call that backstabbing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Legion

Lets leave these emotional speeches aside. Ppl come and go. Interests exist. This is middleast. 10 years ago, Syria was our enemy, now it is different, we cannot know what country will become our enemy in next 10 years.

[m.i.t]

Many Israeli members should be too young or unexperienced...Most reactions are childish...

1- Turkey recognise israel as a soverein state.

2-Turkey is not aganist excisting right of israel. you know someones are...

3-Both countires have mutually ambassadors.. how many muslim country have israeli ambassador..?

4-also Turkey desire a permananent peace in ME region..

Again fortunately Israeli polticians much more smart .

Key point is gaining friend. not gaining enemy .

reactions were only civillian killings and lil bit for local elections.....

dont forget .Turkey has 4 great clubs membership...

1-Nato 2 -Muslim world 3-Turkic world 4-eu. (candidate)

what about israel ? most alone nation in the world ...Only USA ...

all neighbours which much more crowded than israel hate her constatntly ...

Israel defeated arab armies 7 times .... But nothing changed too much...

except hate and hostility...

But if IDF defeated only one time who will save jewish people from arabs....

Or USA may cease the poltical and military asistance to israel...

how israel survive with 5 million population ...

Arrogance may drive you dangerous wrong oneways...

l hope both sides fight for peace...

[m.i.t]

I'll change my mind when I'll see turkish people in rallys, supporting israel.

.

l dont remember any ProTurkey rallys in israel ...

so You shouldnt excpect from Turkish side...

[RoyB]

I'll admit that you guys are much more clever in backstabbing by doing it smoothly. We also know that your military personnel has been training ppl in this so called kurdistan.
Source?


1) There is no such geographic place like kurdistan. It is an invention by outsiders.

2) I call that backstabbing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Legion

Lets leave these emotional speeches aside. Ppl come and go. Interests exist. This is middleast. 10 years ago, Syria was our enemy, now it is different, we cannot know what country will become our enemy in next 10 years.
What is backstabbing about it?


l dont remember any ProTurkey rallys in israel ...

so You shouldnt excpect from Turkish side...
Israel keep it mouth shut about what the Turks do against PKK, not a single word of criticism.

[4X4Driver]

Source?



All over the net..just google it up.

I'm not going to waste my time doing it.

[RoyB]

Me neither, you claimed it, you should prove it.

[deli_dumrul]

Source?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glTN6tNzz1g

[Try&die]

Source?


What is backstabbing about it?


Israel keep it mouth shut about what the Turks do against PKK, not a single word of criticism.


Turkey didn't critised Israel for defending their State and attacking Hamas, but for the civilian killing for the 100000000000000 time.

PKK is not civilian, it is a terrorist group recotnized by Turkey, EU and US. We did not hit any civilians in that 'war', so about what could Israel critice us?

[4X4Driver]

Me neither, you claimed it, you should prove it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glTN6tNzz1g

There you have it ^^

Now..shut it.

[saladin]

Source?


I'm very surprised you haven't heard that. Don't you read your own newpapers? It is not only on the net but also was in Israeli newspapers, including ynet and haaretz. Later Israeli government said they were private contractors (conveniently forgotten to mention that most of them had Mossad connections (including former chief Danny Yatom)).

[RoyB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glTN6tNzz1g
Those are PMC's.
They didn't train PKK, they trained Kurds to secure their airport, and counter-terrorism tactics.

[4X4Driver]

I'm very surprised you haven't heard that. Don't you read your own newpapers? It is not only on the net but also was in Israeli newspapers, including ynet and haaretz. Later Israeli government said they were private contractors (conveniently forgotten to mention that most of them had Mossad connections (including former chief Danny Yatom)).

They're very good with their selective memory. Now they'll claim that that's not pkk...altough they never distinguish between pkk and the kurds.

Edit; ^^ hah..what did I say..he was quicker to post his reply.. LOL!!

Now they' remember to distinguish them..but when they accuse us, it's always "you're killing kurds" motto.

As a side note..there are a lot of pkk among the peshmerge.

[RoyB]

They're very good with their selective memory. Now they'll claim that that's not pkk...altough they never distinguish between pkk and the kurds.
Look who's talking..:roll:

[4X4Driver]

Look who's talking..:roll:

Busted!!! nothing better to say??

[RoyB]

Busted!!! nothing better to say??
Already said..*waiting for a response*

[4X4Driver]

Already said..*waiting for a response*

Yeah..yeah...yeah :roll:

Who's been a backstabber now?

I'm sure erdogan is informed about this too.

[RoyB]

I'm very surprised you haven't heard that. Don't you read your own newpapers? It is not only on the net but also was in Israeli newspapers, including ynet and haaretz. Later Israeli government said they were private contractors (conveniently forgotten to mention that most of them had Mossad connections (including former chief Danny Yatom)).
So?
Black Water contractors have background in US military, does it mean that the US government is responsible for the incident where they killed 14 Iraqi civilians?

[Aor]

Sorry, but there you have a clear anti- Israeli stance not only by the Erdogan the Boogey Man , but also by the (extreme) right/ military establishment/ Deep state. It has been going for some time now but nobody seems to have noticed it Found these few http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5364982.stm http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/21/1087669917091.html The issue is why if we should believe ther is merely an anti- PKK position in Turkey these action should cause such an uproar. Because if it is mere terrorism that the Turks claim to be fighting it is one thing, but if they percieve the Kurdish entity as a whole as a threat, as they seem to be doing, and the support provided by Israel, the U.S and the E.U to the Kurds as hostile actions then we have a different ball game. This fact is in no way covered by the demonisation of one political party in Turkey, but also by the the political right the Kemalist/ nationalist establishment and the whole deep state apparatus as a whole. P.S It is really amusing to have Turkish members jumping from acceptance and embracement of the Ottoman past to rejection of it in order to justify Turkey's actions and politics in the region.

[Snoshi]

Yeah..yeah...yeah :roll:

Who's been a backstabber now?

I'm sure erdogan is informed about this too.

Again.. Turks on this forum like to see difference between regular kurds and terrorists.. So do you have any proof that the men that Israeli contractors trained PKK and not just Iraqi Kurdish security?

[4X4Driver]

Sorry, but there you have a clear anti- Israeli stance not only by the Erdogan the Boogey Man , but also by the (extreme) right/ military establishment/ Deep state. It has been going for some time now but nobody seems to have noticed it Found these few http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5364982.stm http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/21/1087669917091.html The issue is why if we should believe ther is merely an anti- PKK position in Turkey these action should cause such an uproar. Because if it is mere terrorism that the Turks claim to be fighting it is one thing, but if they percieve the Kurdish entity as a whole as a threat, as they seem to be doing, and the support provided by Israel, the U.S and the E.U to the Kurds as hostile actions then we have a different ball game. This fact is in no way covered by the demonisation of one political party in Turkey, but also by the the political right the Kemalist/ nationalist establishment and the whole deep state apparatus as a whole. P.S It is really amusing to have Turkish members jumping from acceptance and embracement of the Ottoman past to rejection of it in order to justify Turkey's actions and politics in the region.

Ahh..our Greek friend with his "valuable" anti Turk input..again.

You're too biased dude...for the known reasons ;)

[4X4Driver]

Again.. Turks on this forum like to see difference between regular kurds and terrorists.. So do you have any proof that the men that Israeli contractors trained PKK and not just Iraqi Kurdish security?

YOU're the one who's supposed to be doing that..for you guys it's always been just kurds we've been killing..no pkk.

[chris450]

Ahh..our Greek friend with his "valuable" anti Turk input..again.

You're too biased dude...for the known reasons ;)

..said the voice of objectivity lol

[Zeev]

l dont remember any ProTurkey rallys in israel ...

so You shouldnt excpect from Turkish side...

as I don't remember any anti turkey rallys in Israel.

[Zeev]

Now..shut it.

I see the sense of debate and democratic values here...

[deli_dumrul]

Those are PMC's.
They didn't train PKK, they trained Kurds to secure their airport, and counter-terrorism tactics.

You were training people in Kurdistan unlike you claimed.

You asked for a source and I provided. So you can continue to discuss whether they are PKK or not. I really do not care. Why?

Having seen when PKK (est. 1978) made the terrorist list (2003) and knowing what it corresponds to, I think there is clear evidence for me regarding the path that Turkey should take. In case you are missing my point, I am trying to say that PKK has fulfilled its duty in 2003...

You have a good chance too. Pass that Armenian bill that you have been holding for so long before the US does in April.

I hate Erdogan... But he will leave sooner or later. At the end of the day, we will be left with Turkey on its own path. Sounds just splendid to me. At least when a dumb f*ck argues how we need NATO and the EU, I can simply post "F*ck off" instead of these boring messages...

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

Ahh..our Greek friend with his "valuable" anti Turk input..again.

You're too biased dude...for the known reasons ;)

What does this supose to mean? Us Greeks don't have the right to express our opinion about Turkey?
What else we will hear from our turkish forumers?
Like @Zeev said...
I see the sense of debate and democratic values here...


On topic now. Fisrt you were saying "Don't generalize! Don't blame Turkey, just blame Erdogan...
Just watch all these turks welcoming the "Conqueror of Davos"
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/549/46589593ge6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/936/92848389om1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/7474/65981439gc4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5507/1067451hd7.jpg
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9571/1067448cl7.jpg
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2342/1067383cp4.jpg
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/849/25267351sl0.jpg

So seems like he (Erdogan) does not express his own opinion but the opinion of the turkish people...

[Try&die]

What does this supose to mean? Us Greeks don't have the right to express our opinion about Turkey?
What else we will hear from our turkish forumers?
Like @Zeev said...


On topic now. Fisrt you were saying "Don't generalize! Don't blame Turkey, just blame Erdogan...
Just watch all these turks welcoming the "Conqueror of Davos"
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/549/46589593ge6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/936/92848389om1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/7474/65981439gc4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5507/1067451hd7.jpg
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9571/1067448cl7.jpg
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2342/1067383cp4.jpg
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/849/25267351sl0.jpg

So seems like he (Erdogan) does not express his own opinion but the opinion of the turkish people...

Yes, how nice to see 5000 of pro-Erdogan Turks of the 70 million Turks:)

[RoyB]

You were training people in Kurdistan unlike you claimed.

You asked for a source and I provided. So you can continue to discuss whether they are PKK or not. I really do not care. Why?

Having seen when PKK (est. 1978) made the terrorist list (2003) and knowing what it corresponds to, I think there is clear evidence for me regarding the path that Turkey should take. In case you are missing my point, I am trying to say that PKK has fulfilled its duty in 2003...

You have a good chance too. Pass that Armenian bill that you have been holding for so long before the US does in April.

I hate Erdogan... But he will leave sooner or later. At the end of the day, we will be left with Turkey on its own path. Sounds just splendid to me. At least when a dumb f*ck argues how we need NATO and the EU, I can simply post "F*ck off" instead of these boring messages...
Fine.
But it still doesn't mean that Israel stabbed Turkey in the back when PMC's trained Kurds(not PKK) to secure their airport against terrorism.

[Try&die]

Btw, Your Greek government have very great appreciation for Erdogan's action it seems. Didn't you noticed it?

[RoyB]

Yes, how nice to see 5000 of pro-Erdogan Turks of the 70 million Turks:)
It doesn't matter.
Where's the other part? they aren't being heard.

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

Yes, how nice to see 5000 of pro-Erdogan Turks of the 70 million Turks:)

How many was his voters? hmm...47% of the 71million people.....
Now go and tell me again that his suppoerters are not the majority in Turkey....
:)

[Try&die]

It doesn't matter.
Where's the other part? they aren't being heard.

Ofcourse not, they are not 'hotnews' at the moment so why would
the media bother them..

[Zeev]

It doesn't matter.
Where's the other part? they aren't being heard.

probably too afraid for their own security?

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

Btw, Your Greek government have very great appreciation for Erdogan's action it seems. Didn't you noticed it?

Ofcourse not! Why are you saying that? Do you have any evidence on what you say?
All i know is that Hamas and the turkish people indeed appreciate what Erdogan did.
Here, Today from Gaza

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/6707/68360606aw1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

7 hours ago: Palestinian youths hold posters of Syria-based Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal ,second right, and Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, second left, during a rally supporting Hamas in Jebaliya, northern Gaza Strip, Friday, Jan. 30, 2009. Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan is winning praise from Gazans after his public spat with Israeli President Shimon Peres over Israel's Gaza offensive

[Try&die]

How many was his voters? hmm...47% of the 71million people.....
Now go and tell me again that his suppoerters are not the majority in Turkey....
:)

The elections was 4years ago. Those 47% he didn't get with the Davos stuff or other Hamas-Israel related issues. He promised a better economy 8 years ago and he achivied that goal. That's why he got those 47% in the elections 4 years later. So what you are saying is very unrelated to this.

And no, if you look it that why 53% did not vote for him so the majority doesn't support him. Is it this hard to understand?

[4X4Driver]

What does this supose to mean? Us Greeks don't have the right to express our opinion about Turkey?

Of course you can my Greek friend..of course you can. I'm just reminding ppl that you have "special" reasons to bash Turkey and ppl should be aware of this while they're evaluating your valuable input regarding us.. you know what I mean ;)


What else we will hear from our turkish forumers?
Like @Zeev said...

I'm glad to hear that he referred to democratic debate..I'll remind him that when the time comes.



On topic now. Fisrt you were saying "Don't generalize! Don't blame Turkey, just blame Erdogan...
Just watch all these turks welcoming the "Conqueror of Davos"

So seems like he (Erdogan) does not express his own opinion but the opinion of the turkish people...

Yeah!woot ain't that great?? your country have always been in support of this "symbol of democracy for Turkey" Erdogan...good for you guys.. :)

[Try&die]

Ofcourse not! Why are you saying that? Do you have any evidence on what you say?

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/dunya/10893842.asp?gid=229

And don't come here with the Turkish newspaper value argument..

[RoyB]

Ofcourse not, they are not 'hotnews' at the moment so why would
the media bother them..
Was there a pro-Israel rally?

probably too afraid for their own security?
Maybe.

[gangan]

l dont remember any ProTurkey rallys in israel ...

so You shouldnt excpect from Turkish side...

There was no reason for any suport rally for turkey and I dont expect any of it, my bigest problem with you its the hypocracy!!!

[Try&die]

Was there a pro-Israel rally?

Maybe.

Enough, Our jewish community made clear they understand Israel but war is not gonna solve this situation. Also Jewish celebrities like Pini Ballili ,Sivasspor player made clear he is for peace in this case and he got a lot of respect of everybody. So no anti-semitist stuff there..

[RoyB]

Enough, Our jewish community made clear they understand Israel but war is not gonna solve this situation. Also Jewish celebrities like Pini Ballili ,Sivasspor player made clear he is for peace in this case and he got a lot of respect of everybody. So no anti-semitist stuff there..
Huh? I didn't said a thing about antisemitism..

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/dunya/10893842.asp?gid=229

And don't come here with the Turkish newspaper value argument..

What's that turkish link? Is that an evidence? What does it say?

[kvk1]

On topic now.

What a giant load of BS.

This is nothing but a sad attempt to kick a foe while he is down.

A few thousand people aren't the entirety of Turkish people. Especially in actions like this. Anybody who knows the area and dynamics knows this.

I tell you what. The day these retarded showings reach the magnitude of the Repbulic Protests of a few years ago where so many people took the streets that satellite pictures of Istanbul looked like the streets were bleeding that's when you can start to worry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_Protests

[Try&die]

Huh? I didn't said a thing about antisemitism..

I didn't said you mentioned anti-semitism. But it was a pre- . So you didn't have to come with some questions about anti-semitism ;)

I also want to say: Israel made clear that this Davos-situation is just an issue and 'bitchfights' between friends is normal. Turkey & Israel have been true worser scenario's and were able to win this. This will be the case again. ( Israel Ambassador words )

Also the Turkish Army made clear all plans and connections and stuff with Israel are fully at power. So no problem there.

I don't understand why you are blowing this thing up..

[4X4Driver]

It doesn't matter.
Where's the other part? they aren't being heard.

Here they are..only last year..but they're all "Kemalist fascists" according the Europeans...esp to the Greeks. :)

Erdogan is the "Democrat" one....again according to the Europeans..




Ending Ataturk's experiment and restoring the Muslim caliphate it supplanted has long been a goal of Islamofascists, adherents to a dangerous political movement whose global reach and terrorist methods have largely been enabled by decades of investment by the world's repressive Islamist regimes, led by Saudi Arabia. The rise of Islamofascism has prompted some in the West to hope Turkey would continue to serve as a model for the Muslim world even after an avowed Islamist named Recep Tayyip Erdogan in 2002 parlayed a minority of votes into a monopoly of power.
This delusion contributed to the European Union allowing its negotiations for Turkish accession to the EU to be skillfully used by Mr. Erdogan to checkmate Turkey's military. Thus, had the armed forces acted to prevent Mr. Erdogan's creeping Islamofascist coup against the country's secular institutions and traditions, they would have been blamed for keeping Turkey "out of Europe."


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/mar/13/20060313-094413-3980r/


http://tembellikruyasi.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/cumhuriyetizmir03ca3.jpg
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/9653/800pxprotectyourrepubliuq3.jpg
http://g.mynet.com/i/180/5214_0.jpg
http://g.mynet.com/i/177/5211_0.jpg
http://g.mynet.com/i/1/4940_0.jpg
http://g.mynet.com/i/165/5202_0.jpg
http://g.mynet.com/i/191/4933_0.jpg

[Try&die]

What's that turkish link? Is that an evidence? What does it say?

It says ( shortly translated ):

Greece: Erdogan said a lot of things other countries couldn't do. You also can read that Greece said this was needed and 'brave'.

And yes this is evidence. Hurriyet is used many times as evidence of your fellow Greeks;)

[Aor]

If dear 4x4 and Deli you want to blame all the anti Israeli sentiments in Turkey on the islamists it is fine by me, however you cannot ignore the fact that Israel is percieved for a matter of years as a threat to Turkey for supporting the Kurdish entity in N.Iraq.

To follow it a bit more, since this is a U.S policy it goes without saying that there is a growing dismay towards the American too.

The fact that neither supported in any way the PKK is proof enough that there is any kind of support towards any Kurdish faction , legal or otherwise, is percieved as a threat to the Turkish state.

Hell, pretty much anything is percieved as a threat to to Turkey these days by the deep state, Like the democratisation efforts by the E.U, the U.S and Israeli support towards the Kurds, the "evil Erdogan", the Greeks, The Armenians... What next the Eastern Bunny?

You want to blame it all on Erdogan after that go ahead.

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

Is says ( shortly translated ):

Greece: Erdogan said a lot of things other countries couldn't do. You also can read that Greece said this was needed and 'brave'.

And yes this is evidence. Hurriyet is used many times as evidence of your fellow Greeks;)

That was the comment of the reporter, not of the Greek Government. Hurriyet talks about the reporter of NET and not the Greek Government

Yunan devlet televizyonu NET, Başbakan Recep Tayyip Erdoğan'ın dün Davos'ta, “Gezegendeki çok kişinin söylemek istediklerini dile getirdiği” yorumunu yaptı.


Yunan=Greek televizyonu=Television NET= the greek channel. Does it say anywhere "Greek Government?
so you are talkin BS and i recoment that you apologize for that...

[RoyB]

I didn't said you mentioned anti-semitism. But it was a pre- . So you didn't have to come with some questions about anti-semitism ;)

I also want to say: Israel made clear that this Davos-situation is just an issue and 'bitchfights' between friends is normal. Turkey & Israel have been true worser scenario's and were able to win this. This will be the case again. ( Israel Ambassador words )

Also the Turkish Army made clear all plans and connections and stuff with Israel are fully at power. So no problem there.

I don't understand why you are blowing this thing up..
It wasn't a pre-.. but whatever.
At least we both can hope that it won't escalate further.

[Try&die]

That was the comment of the reporter, not of the Greek Government. Hurriyet talks about the reporter of NET and not the Greek Government
so you are talkin BS and i recoment that you apologize for that...

NET is Greek State television?

[chris450]

Olympic airways is state owned too, that doesnt make every stewardess a gov spokesman

[Zeev]

I'm glad to hear that he referred to democratic debate..I'll remind him that when the time comes.


Great. It's not in my manners to say shut it when I want to argue. I don't fear the other's anwers..

[4X4Driver]

If dear 4x4 and Deli you want to blame all the anti Israeli sentiments in Turkey on the islamists it is fine by me, however you cannot ignore the fact that Israel is percieved for a matter of years as a threat to Turkey for supporting the Kurdish entity in N.Iraq.

To follow it a bit more, since this is a U.S policy it goes without saying that there is a growing dismay towards the American too.

The fact that neither supported in any way the PKK is proof enough that there is any kind of support towards any Kurdish faction , legal or otherwise, is percieved as a threat to the Turkish state.

Hell, pretty much anything is percieved as a threat to to Turkey these days by the deep state, Like the democratisation efforts by the E.U, the U.S and Israeli support towards the Kurds, the "evil Erdogan", the Greeks, The Armenians... What next the Eastern Bunny?

You want to blame it all on Erdogan after that go ahead.


Hey..thanks for your "valuable" input mate..much appreciated. :)

[Try&die]

It wasn't a pre-.. but whatever.
At least we both can hope that it won't escalate further.


I don't think it will. Erdogan made his point clear and got his extra votes. He doesn't need any attention more. At least, that is what I hope p-)

[Try&die]

Olympic airways is state owned too, that doesnt make every stewardess a gov spokesman

A state television is something different then as a Air company. They are used for different things. I hope you understand that, otherwise we can stop here.:)

[4X4Driver]

Great. It's not in my manners to say shut it when I want to argue. I don't fear the other's anwers..

What..afraid of an answer?? you didn't even have one to that video ( a reasonable one of course)

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

@Try&die, honestly and not hard feelings, but how old are you?
If you don't see the difference between tha opinion of a reporter, and the official Greek Government, then unless you are a kid, you have a serial problem.

[Zeev]

What..afraid of an answer?? you didn't even have one to that video ( a reasonable one of course)

I was obviously not talking about me.

My personnal opinions don't need to be proved by a video..

[Try&die]

@Try&die, honestly and not hard feelings, but how old are you?
If you don't see the difference between tha opinion of a reporter, and the official Greek Government, then unless you are a kid, you have a serial problem.

First of all : I don't have a serial problem? and I don't understand what you mean by serial here.

Second: I am not a kid, so you can ditch that one too.

Third: The reporter reported the statements of Greece, at least that is what is written. Or can you read Turkish better than me?

And last: Are you suggesting Greece is pro-Israel?( cause I can remember some things:|)

[4X4Driver]

Turkish PM Visits Athens

The Greek prime minister congratulated his Turkish counterpart on the reform efforts he had led, while Mr. Erdogan described Greece's support as remarkable.


http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2004-05/a-2004-05-08-2-1.cfm

[chris450]

double post

[chris450]

A state television is something different then as a Air company. They are used for different things. I hope you understand that, otherwise we can stop here.:)

why stop ? this debate is a great source of information,i didnt know that every single Hurriyet reporter acts as a gov spokesman

darn ,we only have one ,and that aint cool


Are you suggesting Greece is pro-Israel?well ,we dont have Islamic burka loving Hamas admirers running the country,thats gotta count for smthing

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

Third: The reporter reported the statements of Greece, at least that is what is written. Or can you read Turkish better than me?


No i can not read turkish, but
1) I watched the (female) reported saying (after watching the video of Erdogan attack to Israel) "to be honest many people all over the world would agree with Erdogan" That was her opinion.
2) Here is a machine translation (babylon)
Greece: A LARGE planet TO SAY people want to see expressed his Greek state television NET, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's yesterday Davos'ta, "very Planet to say people that we want to the interpretation" and he. Net, switzerland in Davos yesterday in the reminder panel lunch news bulletin of the wide gave.

I don't see anywhere the phrace "The Greek government"
Yoy are lieing again! For the second time!
Relax man! We don't have islamic and anti-israeli Governmet. Turkey definately has.

[Try&die]

why stop ? this debate is a great source of information,i didnt know that every sigle Hurriyet reporter acts as a gov spokesman

darn ,we only have one ,and that aint cool



well ,we dont have Islamic burka loving Hamas admirers running the country,thats gotta count for smthing

Well, you have a minister who didn't accepted a gift from a Israeli minister( don't know sure if it was a minister ) cause it came from the Golan-area, which Israel didn't ' got ' legally..

That one we don't have heheh..

[Aor]

If you [post something read it first jenious


Turkish PM Visits Athens

Athens
08 May 2004



Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is in Greece for a historic visit marking the continuing thaw in relations between the two long time rival countries.

Mr. Erdogan and his Greek counterpart Costas Karamanlis, looked like the friends they profess to be as the visit started.

The three-day trip began on Thursday night with an informal dinner between the two, but the main business started on Friday, when the two leaders held talks aimed at tackling some of the disputes that have long marred relations between Greece and Turkey.

They addressed the issue of Cyprus, the Mediterranean island divided into ethnic Greek and Turk sectors. An internationally backed plan to reunite the island failed only two weeks ago when it was rejected by the Greek side in a referendum.

But both men insisted that the collapse of the Cyprus peace deal would not dent the friendship between their countries. Instead, Mr. Karamanlis said that Greece would continue to support Turkey's bid for membership of the European Union, a process which Ankara is anxious to see initiated later this year.

The Greek prime minister congratulated his Turkish counterpart on the reform efforts he had led, while Mr. Erdogan described Greece's support as remarkable.

The friendly attitude between the two men is in contrast to the frosty stand-off that typified relations between Greece and Turkey only a few years ago. In 1996, the two NATO members nearly went to war over territorial claims in the Aegean sea.

After five years of growing harmony, however, those issues are finally being addressed during Mr. Erdogan's visit. But, while Mr. Erdogan has spoken of his desire to turn the Aegean into a lake of peace, observers say the talks are unlikely to produce any formal settlement over territorial disputes for some time.

Instead, Mr. Erdogan is to head Saturday to Thrace in northeastern Greece, which is home to some 120,000 ethnic Turks. That community has long accused Greece of human rights abuses, and Mr. Erdogan is the first Turkish leader to visit the region in 50 years.

In what book is the improovement of diplomatic relations and the effort of building bridges something bad.

And what does this have to do with this thread and the growing paranoia and anti Israeli sentiments YOU and as it seems the WHOLE Turkish political establishment seems to have.

Greek- Turkish relations hardly justify Turkish policies towards Israel and the Middle East.

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

Well, you have a minister who didn't accepted a gift from a Israeli minister( don't know sure if it was a minister ) cause it came from the Golan-area, which Israel didn't ' got ' legally..

That one we don't have heheh..

Once again misinformation!!!
The guy you are refering WAS minister hmmm 10 years ago? Something like that.
He is definately not a minister now. He is not in the rulling party (ND ) but in the oposition party (PASOK)

Man! You are a champion of missinformation!
Stop it! It backfires!
:)

[Try&die]

No i can not read turkish, but
1) i watched the (female) reported saying (after watching the video of Erdogan attack to Israel) "to be honest many people all over the world would agree with Erdogan. That was her opinion.
2) Here is a machine translation (babylon)
Greece: A LARGE planet TO SAY people want to see expressed his Greek state television NET, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's yesterday Davos'ta, "very Planet to say people that we want to the interpretation" and he. Net, switzerland in Davos yesterday in the reminder panel lunch news bulletin of the wide gave.

I don't see anywhere the phrace "The Greek government"
Yoy are lieing again! For the second time!
Relax man! We don't have islamic and anti-israeli Governmet. Turkey definately has.


You are 1 joke or something. Translating a article on internet, how much of quality translation do you get? especcialy with Turkish language.
The newspaper says clearly Greece and not the Greek reporter.
So calling me a lyer makes you the a bigger one.

Yes you dont have a islamic government, because you are a muslim country? And about that anti-Israel, I would think twice.. Erdogan said his reactions were against the Israel government, not against Israel and the Israeli people. You should read better..

[chris450]

The newspaper says clearly Greece and not the Greek reporter. simple...its not a translation error... Hurriyet is full of shyte

[Try&die]

Once again misinformation!!!
The guy you are refering WAS minister hmmm 10 years ago? Something like that.
He is definately not a minister now. He is not in the rulling party (ND ) but in the oposition party (PASOK)

Man! You are a champion of missinformation!
Stop it! It backfires!
:)


Please go to your bed. Can't you read what I said between the ( ). Stop this bull****ting or go to sleep. You are defenitly desorientated;)

[Try&die]

simple...its not a translation error... Hurriyet is full of shyte

Too easy, srry.

[4X4Driver]

If you [post something read it first jenious





Yep..that's it..we're talking about Greece's suport to "Democratic" PM of Turkey :)

Not that too hard to understand for you..is it?

Thanks again for your "fruitful" input.

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

You are 1 joke or something. Translating a article on internet, how much of quality translation do you get? especcialy with Turkish language.
The newspaper says clearly Greece and not the Greek reporter.
So calling me a lyer makes you the a bigger one.

Yes you dont have a islamic government, because you are a muslim country? And about that anti-Israel, I would think twice.. Erdogan said his reactions were against the Israel government, not against Israel and the Israeli people. You should read better..

OK! Show me the turkish word "Greek Government" in the text from the link you gave me!
As i said i watched the TV and i know exactly what the Reported said.
And if what you say was true, how come and there is nowhere any news about the "greek government congartulate Erdogan" BS that you trying to pass here?
Show me!

[deli_dumrul]

Aor I will be answering your message shortly.

Can the mods please kick the dumb f*cks out of this thread so we can have a discussion?

[Try&die]

OK! Show me the turkish word "Greek Government" in the text from the link you gave me!
As i said i watched the TV and i know exactly what the Reported said.
And if what you say was true, how come and there is nowhere any news about the "greek government congartulate Erdogan" BS that you trying to pass here?
Show me!

Yunanistan and Yunan devlet( Greek government ).

But i'll leave now , so Deli_Dumrul can take over the talking.

Good night , sleep tight;)

[chris450]

Aor I will be answering your message shortly.

Can the mods please kick the dumb f*cks out of this thread so we can have a discussion?

why so anxious to leave?

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

Good night , sleep tight;)


Good night kardes!
Maybe tomorow you will have the link of these news that only "Hurriyet" wrote. It'can be! There must be at least 2 different media reporting on a current even't. But i know that you will find nothing because as i said i watched the NET Chanel my self and i know what the reporter said.

Now back on topic. What effect will that behavior of Erdogan on the israeli-turkish relations?
I heard something that Israel will not sell the Heron UAV in Turkey. Is there any true on that?

[Try&die]

Good night kardes!
Maybe tomorow you will have the link of these news that only "Hurriyet" wrote. It'can be! There must be at least 2 different media reportin on a current even't. But i know that you will find nothing because as i said i watched the NET Chanel my self and i know what the reporter said.

Now back on topic. What effect will that behavior of Erdogan on the israeli-turkish relations?
I heard something that Israel will not sell the Heron UAV in Turkey. Is there any true on that?

Well, as I said before, the army said all activities are 100% as it was. No problem at the Heron UAV. BTW we allready have 2 Heron's.

Sleeping really now, good night my friend.

[Aor]

Well goodnight from me too. I can't wait all night for a responce. See you tomorrow.

[Nickchios]

Good night kardes!
Maybe tomorow you will have the link of these news that only "Hurriyet" wrote. It'can be! There must be at least 2 different media reporting on a current even't. But i know that you will find nothing because as i said i watched the NET Chanel my self and i know what the reporter said.

Now back on topic. What effect will that behavior of Erdogan on the israeli-turkish relations?
I heard something that Israel will not sell the Heron UAV in Turkey. Is there any true on that?

First reaction on political field is that Mr Mitchell, ex USA Senator, ME mediator is canceling the visit in Ankara......

http://www.internethaber.com/news_detail.php?id=176957

[Moledet]

Greeks and Turks are now debating who is more hostile to Israel?

[deli_dumrul]

If dear 4x4 and Deli you want to blame all the anti Israeli sentiments in Turkey on the islamists it is fine by me, however you cannot ignore the fact that Israel is percieved for a matter of years as a threat to Turkey for supporting the Kurdish entity in N.Iraq.

To follow it a bit more, since this is a U.S policy it goes without saying that there is a growing dismay towards the American too.


What is your point?

I am the one who posted this very same graphic once on this board.
http://pewglobal.org/reports/images/256-4.gif

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=256

We have been the ones saying let's get the f*ck out of NATO, and f*ck EU over and over and over on this board.

So, what is your point really?



The fact that neither supported in any way the PKK is proof enough that there is any kind of support towards any Kurdish faction , legal or otherwise, is percieved as a threat to the Turkish state.

Why did the PKK make the list in 2003?
Why is there a helicopter landing area on Kandil? Do PKK operate helis?
Explain...



Hell, pretty much anything is percieved as a threat to to Turkey these days by the deep state, Like the democratisation efforts by the E.U, the U.S and Israeli support towards the Kurds, the "evil Erdogan", the Greeks, The Armenians... What next the Eastern Bunny?


According to a poll in Greece, Turkey came out as the number one threat to Greece. Guess what the result of the poll was in Turkey? I can say it was not Eastern Bunny, Thanksgiving turkey, Greece, or Armenia.



You want to blame it all on Erdogan after that go ahead.

Of course we are going to blame on Erdogan.

Having a foreign policy is one thing and a diplomatic etiquette is another thing. This dumb f*ck doesn't seem the understand this.

In addition, his actions are purely cosmetic, intended for internal consumption and the looming local election in March.

Where were you when sh*t hit the fan in Iraq? Where were your tears when PKK killed our soldiers? Where were you when it comes to Uyghurs?

[4X4Driver]

Greeks and Turks are now debating who is more hostile to Israel?

{sarcasm on} Probably we are..cuz we're Muslims after all..right??:)

{sarcasm off}

[ggk]

so now its Greece vs Turkey? sheeeeez The Immigrant Absorption Ministry Brigade have won.

[Homer]

Don't know if this has been posted already by someone in the 24 pages of bs, but here, to get the thread back to its original topic and end this Greece v Turkey thing..



US Jewish group says PM actions fuel hatred http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/p/english2008/spacer.gif
WASHINGTON - Despite the importance of Israeli-Turkish ties, Jews will not remain silent over attacks on Israel, a Jewish leader says. ’Prime Minister Erdoğan’s tantrum at Davos throws gasoline on the fire of surging anti-Semitism,’ says the AJC’s Executive Director David Harris in a statement.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_np/6945/7256945.jpg A major U.S. Jewish group has accused Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/recep_tayyip_erdo%C4%9Fan/) of launching a "vicious verbal attack" on Israeli President Shimon Peres at Davos on Thursday, and that "this public disgrace may well encourage further outrages against Israel and Jews."

Erdoğan and Peres exchanged heated words during a panel on the Gaza conflict held as part of the annual World Economic Forum meetings in the town of Davos in Switzerland earlier Thursday.

Toward the end of the event, Erdoğan stormed off the podium complaining that the moderator would not allow him to complete his remarks during the discussion.

The American Jewish Committee, or AJC, denounced Erdoğan in a written statement, saying: "'when it comes to killing, you know well how to kill,'" Erdoğan yelled at Peres, a recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize.

"Prime Minister Erdoğan’s tantrum at Davos throws gasoline on the fire of surging anti-Semitism," said AJC Executive Director David Harris, according to the statement. "Erdoğan’s unjustified remarks and disrespect of Israel’s president are yet another demonstration of how criticism of Israel is becoming increasingly virulent."

Rising anti-Semitism
Harris said the relationship between Turkey and Israel was a vital one that has enjoyed the support of American Jews."But we cannot remain silent in the face of such appalling rhetorical denunciations of Israel, particularly when there has been a worrying surge of anti-Semitism in Turkey in recent weeks," he said.

The leaders of five major U.S. Jewish groups, including the AJC's Harris, sent a letter to Erdoğan last week, warning about what they called rising anti-Semitism in Turkey and criticizing Ankara (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/Ankara/)'s policies on the Gaza crisis.

Israel's military campaign targeting the radical Palestinian group Hamas (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/Hamas/), ruling Gaza, took place between late December and mid-January and killed nearly 1,300 Palestinians. About half of the those killed were children and other civilians. Three Israeli civilians also died in Hamas (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/Hamas/)' rocket attacks and 10 Israeli soldiers were killed in action. Throughout the offensive Turkey strongly condemned the Israeli action.Analysts say that in addition to rapidly worsening Turkish-Israeli ties, Ankara (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/Ankara/)'s relationship with the U.S. Jewish groups, allies in a number of previous matters, has hit an all-time low.

Consequence of worsening ties
As a result, U.S. Jewish groups, who mostly backed Turkey in the past, are expected to sit out when a new "Armenian genocide" bill comes to Congress, they say.

U.S. Armenians hope that this year they will obtain a formal U.S. recognition of World War I-era killings of Armenians in the Ottoman empire as genocide. President Barack Obama (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/Barack_Obama/) strongly backed the Armenian position during the election campaign.

"There are serious indications that Israel and American-Jewish organizations are no longer willing to support Turkey's lobbying efforts in Washington (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/washington/)," said Harut Sassounian, a leading U.S. Armenian figure and publisher of the California Courier, a bi-weekly Armenian newspaper, in an article in the popular news site Huffington Post Thursday.

Turkey is among the few countries with a majority Muslim population to have ties with Israel. The two coutries have enjoyed a warm strategic relationship that extends to almost every field, ranging from defense to tourism.http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/10895494.asp?gid=243

[Amateur]

Looks like Erdogan's stance against S. Peres in Davos was well received in Gaza too...



Gazans watched Erdogan alive
Friday, 30 January 2009 01:06
TIMETURK / NEWS CENTER

Gazans watched the Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan alive in his discussion with the Israeli president. Erdogan’s leaving the stage made Gazans happy.



Gazans watching the press meeting carefully praised Erdogan and the Turkish government.
A Palestinian named Halil Turk who said that his ancestors are Turks thanked Turkish people and pointed out that it is proud for them that Turkish government are with them. Turk said, “ I support Erdogan with all my heart.”
Another Palestinian named Muhammed Akila said Erdogan’s response to Peres was quite right and he respected the Turkish prime minister deeply.
http://en.timeturk.com/gazans-watched-erdogan-alive-14999-haberi.html (http://en.timeturk.com/gazans-watched-erdogan-alive-14999-haberi.html)



http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/07bO4gScEq0Eu/610x.jpg?center=0.5,0[/URL]

Palestinian youths hold posters of Syria-based Hamas (http://select.daylife.com/photo/07bO4gScEq0Eu?q=Israel+Gaza+Crisis) leader Khaled Mashaal ,second right, and Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan (http://select.daylife.com/topic/Recep_Tayyip_Erdogan), second left, during a rally supporting Hamas in Jebaliya, northern Gaza Strip, Friday, Jan. 30, 2009. Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan is winning praise from Gazans after his public spat with Israeli President Shimon Peres (http://select.daylife.com/topic/Shimon_Peres) over Israel's Gaza offensive.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0glMdIL1VI6VM/610x.jpg?center=0.5,0

Green Islamic flags and a Turkish flag are seen during a rally in support of Hamas (http://select.daylife.com/topic/Hamas) in Jebalya refugee camp, northern Gaza Strip, Friday Jan. 30, 2009. Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan is winning praise from Gazans after his public spat with Israeli President Shimon Peres (http://select.daylife.com/topic/Shimon_Peres) over Israel's Gaza offensive

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/05GVfzp9Q05nG/610x.jpg?center=0.5,0
Hamas (http://select.daylife.com/photo/05GVfzp9Q05nG?q=Israel+Gaza+Crisis) lawmaker Mushir al-Masri, top left, is seen as a Turkish flag flies during Friday prayers near the rubble of a mosque in Jebaliya refugee camp in the northern of Gaza Strip, Friday Jan. 30, 2009. Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan is winning praise from Gazans after his public spat with Israeli President Shimon Peres (http://select.daylife.com/topic/Shimon_Peres) over Israel's Gaza offensive.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0dp969c0qA75c/610x.jpg?center=0.5,0
A Palestinian wearing a Turkish flag around his neck shout anti-Israeli slogans during a rally in Jabalya in the northern Gaza Strip January 30, 2009. President Barack Obama (http://select.daylife.com/topic/Barack_Obama)'s Middle East envoy George Mitchell (http://select.daylife.com/topic/George_Mitchell) said on Friday there would be further setbacks in the search for peace between Israel and the Palestinians.
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0bct1WA64X328/610x.jpg?center=0.5,0
A Turkish flag is seen as Palestinians pray prior to attending a rally in support of Hamas (http://select.daylife.com/topic/Hamas) in Gaza city, Friday Jan. 30, 2009. Turkish prime minister Tayyip Erdogan is winning praise from Gazans after his public spat with Israeli President Shimon Peres (http://select.daylife.com/topic/Shimon_Peres) over Israel's Gaza offensive.

Source: [URL]http://select.daylife.com/topic/Israel_Gaza_Crisis/photos



So here's a question to turkish members:

Do you think Erdogan might be trying to appeal to all muslims (which seems to be working very well until now) and become a pan-islamic leader?
After all, he often refers to the Ottoman Empire as a model, and in the Ottoman Empire the sultan was the highest authority between muslims in all areas, is that not right?
And if that is his ultimate goal, how do you turkish members view it, given the fact that you generally endorse the secular / kemalist view and not the islamist view?
Do you think this is a dangerous prospect that would threaten the secular state that Kemal Ataturk built, or would you gladly see Turkey as a center of pan-islamic leadership?

[1curious]

Don't know if this has been posted already by someone in the 24 pages of bs, but here, to get the thread back to its original topic and end this Greece v Turkey thing..

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/10895494.asp?gid=243
I am ambiguous over this article.

While I found Erdogan's behavior in Davos at least overreaching, I don't think an American Jewish lobby group is wise to so openly interfere in historical and very emotionalized Turkish-Armenian issues...If an Israeli group does it it's one thing (and would in fact be proper because the issue is between Israel and Turkey), if an American Jewish group does it, at least to me, it looks like a threat of dragging the United States with all its weight into a bilateral verbal spat we have little role in. It looks very arrogant to me.

[HangPC2]

Ottoman Empire Is Coming Back !!!!

[morten]

This is getting ridiculous...

Even if it is "normal" that our greek friends take the chance of "Turkey-bashing", to do so in a thread about the Gaza-attacks and Israel is just hypocrisy...

just use your friend google with "anti semitism greece" and wonder.

A few examples:


There have been several anti-Semitic attacks in Greece over the past few weeks. These attacks have involved the desecration of the Jewish cemetery in Athens, defacing a Holocaust monument in Corfu, attacks on synagogues and anti-Semitic articles in the Greek media. The latest outrage occurred a few days ago in Ioannina with another desecration of a Jewish cemetery. All these incidents are made more shocking because of the inaction of the authorities and the almost complete silence on the subject on the part of the media.

From the Greek Helsinki Monitor

Most condemnable moreover is the generalized silence of Greek media, intellectuals, and other civil society organizations about the anti-Semitic attacks. Even the organizations funded to monitor racism and anti-Semitism on behalf of the EU appear once more to fights racism selectively. In such climate, it was reported that an annual lecture in the Thessaloniki Jewish Museum in the framework of a history course at the Aristotle University of Thessaloniki was canceled because of student reactions while hostile comments were registered at least in an academic list about a forthcoming seminar on historiography of the Greek Jews, planned a long time ago

http://deviousdiva.com/2009/01/21/antisemitism-in-greece/

http://www.ajc.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=ijITI2PHKoG&b=849241&ct=6489161

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-23.htm


And apropos violance against jews: i did not find on a cursory google-search anything about attacks against citizens of jewish faith in Turkey (except the attack of Al Quida in Istanbul) in contrary to the posted link above.

[chris450]

you should try to answer the questions put forth instead of derailing the thread to your liking


So here's a question to turkish members:

Do you think Erdogan might be trying to appeal to all muslims (which seems to be working very well until now) and become a pan-islamic leader?
After all, he often refers to the Ottoman Empire as a model, and in the Ottoman Empire the sultan was the highest authority between muslims in all areas, is that not right?
And if that is his ultimate goal, how do you turkish members view it, given the fact that you generally endorse the secular / kemalist view and not the islamist view?
Do you think this is a dangerous prospect that would threaten the secular state that Kemal Ataturk built, or would you gladly see Turkey as a center of pan-islamic leadership?

[morten]

And you should firstly mind on your own business before you take your mouth so full.

First explain the antisemitism in your country before you judge about others.

[Snoshi]

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad praised Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan for his statements against Operation Cast Lead at the World Economic Conference in Davos.
"This was a brave act and exactly what I expected him to do," he said. (AFP)
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3664552,00.html

[chris450]

i understand defending the much hated Erdogan must be frustrating for kemalists ,but i suggest you chill ,we're just observers we didnt put him up to it

note that we're not in Ankara,i can speak my mind without permission

[deli_dumrul]

Do you think Erdogan might be trying to appeal to all muslims (which seems to be working very well until now) and become a pan-islamic leader?


Maybe. At least in his dreams.



After all, he often refers to the Ottoman Empire as a model, and in the Ottoman Empire the sultan was the highest authority between muslims in all areas, is that not right?


Yes. The caliph.



And if that is his ultimate goal, how do you turkish members view it, given the fact that you generally endorse the secular / kemalist view and not the islamist view?


The caliphate was abolished in 1924. He can continue dreaming.



Do you think this is a dangerous prospect that would threaten the secular state that Kemal Ataturk built, or would you gladly see Turkey as a center of pan-islamic leadership?

First, the percentage of Islamists is only 8-10% according to polls questioning to role of Islam in government. It is just another dream to convert Turkey into an Islamic republic.

Second, an Islamic leadership is impossible due to the deep rifts between sects. Therefore talking about a leadership is just absurd. There are already muslim leaderes frowning upon Erdogan's show due to increased pressure from their own folk.

Third, I would take any type of influence on anybody anytime. It is political leverage. However, religion has never been the way to accomplish this. Anybody who believes otherwise should open a Middle East map. Or, a Balkan one would do too. The way to accomplish this is trade (most importantly military hardware).

[deli_dumrul]

I am ambiguous over this article.

While I found Erdogan's behavior in Davos at least overreaching, I don't think an American Jewish lobby group is wise to so openly interfere in historical and very emotionalized Turkish-Armenian issues...If an Israeli group does it it's one thing (and would in fact be proper because the issue is between Israel and Turkey), if an American Jewish group does it, at least to me, it looks like a threat of dragging the United States with all its weight into a bilateral verbal spat we have little role in. It looks very arrogant to me.

Last year the bill was about to pass with the support of Jewish congressmen. Do you know who helped to scuttle it?

[HangPC2]

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/7633/2009boikotprodukus09010jx8.jpg

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/4970/2009boikotprodukus09010te9.jpg


http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/9213/2009boikotprodukus09010nb7.th.jpg (http://img397.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2009boikotprodukus09010nb7.jpg)

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/3686/2009boikotprodukus09010ne3.th.jpg (http://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2009boikotprodukus09010ne3.jpg)

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/4508/2009boikotprodukus09010uv5.th.jpg (http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2009boikotprodukus09010uv5.jpg)

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/8186/2009boikotprodukus09010dc2.th.jpg (http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2009boikotprodukus09010dc2.jpg)

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/4850/2009boikotprodukus09010zn9.th.jpg (http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2009boikotprodukus09010zn9.jpg)

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/4093/2009boikotprodukus09010fe0.th.jpg (http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2009boikotprodukus09010fe0.jpg)

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2928/2009boikotprodukus09010fz2.th.jpg (http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2009boikotprodukus09010fz2.jpg)



Malaysian Islamic Consumers Association

http://www.muslimconsumer.org.my/ppim/news.php

[HangPC2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXMsd_efudc

[HangPC2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F3cd1BWxFM

[RoyB]

This thread is not about who's more anti-Israel, Greece or Turkey.
Its not about Malaysian rallies neither..

[ggk]

thats off topic la HangPC he he

[Alienoz]

Looks like Turkish government took the flag of Middleastern leadership from Iranians. I was expecting to see some comments on this issue.

[m.i.t]

Looks like Turkish government took the flag of Middleastern leadership from Iranians. I was expecting to see some comments on this issue.


Is it possible with just leaving a meeting and making emotional statements ?

l dont think so....

[eugenlitwin]

Looks like Turkish government took the flag of Middleastern leadership from Iranians. I was expecting to see some comments on this issue.

itd be not so easy, Parisians ve worked very hard to get this Flag

[LoveCyprus]

I did not even know that there was a such flag. Crap.

[saladin]

Don't know if this has been posted already by someone in the 24 pages of bs, but here, to get the thread back to its original topic and end this Greece v Turkey thing..

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/10895494.asp?gid=243

If you don't care to read these pages, don't post here. It is as simple as that. Also, there is a "search this thread" option for lazy boys.

Incidently, another greek couldn't hold his horses to post the same news long before you.

http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3884411&highlight=Harris#post3884411

[saladin]

you should try to answer the questions put forth instead of derailing the thread to your liking
Questions:


So here's a question to turkish members:

Do you think Erdogan might be trying to appeal to all muslims (which seems to be working very well until now) and become a pan-islamic leader?
After all, he often refers to the Ottoman Empire as a model, and in the Ottoman Empire the sultan was the highest authority between muslims in all areas, is that not right?
And if that is his ultimate goal, how do you turkish members view it, given the fact that you generally endorse the secular / kemalist view and not the islamist view?
Do you think this is a dangerous prospect that would threaten the secular state that Kemal Ataturk built, or would you gladly see Turkey as a center of pan-islamic leadership?


Yes, the thread's title is indeed "Ottoman Empire returning back to Islamic World and Turkey's internal politics",
so we should answer the questions to NOT derail this tread about Turkish reaction to Israel in Gaza.

[saladin]

Looks like Turkish government took the flag of Middleastern leadership from Iranians. I was expecting to see some comments on this issue.
itd be not so easy, Parisians ve worked very hard to get this Flag

It is true, it is so true. Parisians had to endure the filthy muslims from Africa to be able to get that flag.

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

one picture to laugh and relax a litle bit!
1 image 1000 words

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/3213/erdoganpereszw6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

:lol: :lol:
Credit @WiraBengis from the "Funny military pics " thread

[4X4Driver]

you should try to answer the questions put forth instead of derailing the thread to your liking

Yeah right..:roll: If he didn't focus much on flaming the thread and read it instead, he's find all the answers to his questions..and much more.

Even he didn't bother to read the thread before coming up with such "questions" he knows what the Turkish members of this forum thinks about Erdogan and his agenda. We expressed our disapprove in all the other threads that was started about him..while we were doing this, you all were praising him and accusing us for being paranoid.:roll:

So..I don't buy it.

[4X4Driver]

Don't know if this has been posted already by someone in the 24 pages of bs, but here, to get the thread back to its original topic and end this Greece v Turkey thing..

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/10895494.asp?gid=243

If you bothered to read the thread, you'd see the article you posted already posted in one or two of the 24 pages of this "BS"

Maybe you had different intentions?? ;)

[Amateur]

Yeah right..:roll: If he didn't focus much on flaming the thread and read it instead, he's find all the answers to his questions..and much more.
Even he didn't bother to read the thread before coming up with such "questions" he knows what the Turkish members of this forum thinks about Erdogan and his agenda.
No, I don't flame; if you had bothered to read my question carefully, you would have seen I took full notice of the turkish members' stance against Erdogan (see below, in red). But while I noticed the turkish members' disapproving stance against Erdogan, I asked whether this disapproval would also hold for any aspirations by Erdogan for panislamic leadership, or whether you would endorse such a goal, even on purely pragmatic / strategic grounds (as most of you guys are secularists). This question is highlighted below in green)


Do you think Erdogan might be trying to appeal to all muslims (which seems to be working very well until now) and become a pan-islamic leader?
...
And if that is his ultimate goal, how do you turkish members view it, given the fact that you generally endorse the secular / kemalist view and not the islamist view?
Do you think this is a dangerous prospect that would threaten the secular state that Kemal Ataturk built, or would you gladly see Turkey as a center of pan-islamic leadership?
I think those are legitimate and interesting questions, and the answer to those questions may have serious repercussions for the whole region; To those questions, one turkish member (deli dumrul) was so kind as to give me a direct and well-thought answer (highlighted in blue below).

Maybe. At least in his dreams.
Yes. The caliph.
The caliphate was abolished in 1924. He can continue dreaming.
First, the percentage of Islamists is only 8-10% according to polls questioning to role of Islam in government. It is just another dream to convert Turkey into an Islamic republic.
Second, an Islamic leadership is impossible due to the deep rifts between sects. Therefore talking about a leadership is just absurd. There are already muslim leaderes frowning upon Erdogan's show due to increased pressure from their own folk.
Third, I would take any type of influence on anybody anytime. It is political leverage. However, religion has never been the way to accomplish this. Anybody who believes otherwise should open a Middle East map. Or, a Balkan one would do too. The way to accomplish this is trade (most importantly military hardware).
That's a good point by @deli dumrul, and I agree with it.
I also agree with the second point above, about the deep rifts between islamic sects. However I would seriously question the first point, because Erdogan seems to have much more appeal to the turkish people than turkish members here give him credit for. Anyway, this remains to be seen in the future.


So..I don't buy it.
Well I couldn't say I care... p-)
but we really don't have to be at each others' throats all the time; sometimes a question is just a question: what do you think on this?

[4X4Driver]

No, I don't flame; if you had bothered to read my question carefully, you would have seen I took full notice of the turkish members' stance against Erdogan (see below, in red). But while I noticed the turkish members' disapproving stance against Erdogan, I asked whether this disapproval would also hold for any aspirations by Erdogan for panislamic leadership, or whether you would endorse such a goal, even on purely pragmatic / strategic grounds (as most of you guys are secularists). This question is highlighted below in green)

Well..as a greek, you know damn well that no Kemalist will ever approve anything out of Atatürk's path under any circumstances..so your "questions" does not even have any base to begin with.


I think those are legitimate and interesting questions, and the answer to those questions may have serious repercussions for the whole region

Read this thread and at least six other threads that's been started (some by the greeks) about Erdogan in the near past you'll find them easy, cuz you also had conributed with your "valuable" inputs in some of those threads.


Well I couldn't say I care... p-)
but we really don't have to be at each others' throats all the time; sometimes a question is just a question: what do you think on this?

Look..the Israeli members asking you to stand alone on your own and do your own Turkish bashing somewhere else and don't do this by hiding behind them..cuz they know your general stance against them.

Don't you guys have any pride left to take these hints??



Greeks and Turks are now debating who is more hostile to Israel?


This thread is not about who's more anti-Israel, Greece or Turkey.


Again..use the search with "Erdogan" and get your answers..you can even look at your own post history to find them.

Edit: here...it took me under a minute to run into one of your posts. You're pretty involved in the discussion and It's prettey obvious where you stand and that you don't give much credit to our answers..so why still ask??



I don't think there's any point in discussing turkish newspapers' credibility in this forum; what I do know is that Sabah is one of the major newspapers in Turkey. You 're saying it's supportive of the islamist government; I have no problem in accepting that. But even so, this shows us that there are two sides to this argument: there are some people in Turkey (and many people ouside Turkey) saying that this attack does not seem to fit into the standard extremist islamist pattern known around the world (explosives, expert coordination, many casualties because of the detonation), that there are many questions to be resolved, and that this could be a case of provocation by the "deep state" to discredit the islamist government.
I don't want to express an opinion, because I don't have all the evidence. But the quick "launching" of the islamist scenario by many "deep state" strongholds, before any serious investigation had started, did not help the credibility of the "islamist" scenario at all.
What I do know is that there's a political fight for power going on in Turkey, and one cannot interpret this attack without taking it into consideration.

[Snoshi]

Hamas is a political party, not an "arm of Iran," Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said in an interview with Newsweek magazine published online Saturday. "If the whole world had given them the chance of becoming a political player maybe they would not be in a situation like this after the elections that they won."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304647693&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
rofl
What a loser.. Even Egypt says that it is.. But no, Hamas are just misunderstood saints!

[Amateur]

@ 4X4 Driver
I don't see what you 're trying to prove with that quote of mine; it's exactly a case where I didn't take sides. But even if I had taken sides in favor of Erdogan, my questions would still be legitimate:

Do you think Erdogan might be trying to appeal to all muslims (which seems to be working very well until now) and become a pan-islamic leader?
After all, he often refers to the Ottoman Empire as a model, and in the Ottoman Empire the sultan was the highest authority between muslims in all areas, is that not right?
And if that is his ultimate goal, how do you turkish members view it, given the fact that you generally endorse the secular / kemalist view and not the islamist view?
Do you think this is a dangerous prospect that would threaten the secular state that Kemal Ataturk built, or would you gladly see Turkey as a center of pan-islamic leadership?
Those are, in my view, interesting questions, and Erdogan's moves during the last 2 years would give anybody plenty of reasons to ask them, whether he 's Greek, Turk or Israeli (or Iranian p-)).
Your compatriot @Deli Dumrul took the effort to answer those questions sincerely; now If you don't want to answer them, I have nothing more to say. But the questions won't go away just because you don't want to answer them.
And a hint to Israeli members: I understand you don't like the way Erdogan speaks, but if he 's bidding for "panislamic leadership" you might in the long run get a more moderate "islamic world's leader" to discuss with, instead of the mullahs in Tehran. Have you thought of that?

[Mackie]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304647693&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
rofl
What a loser.. Even Egypt says that it is.. But no, Hamas are just misunderstood saints!


Less connections to Iran, don't means they are saints.
There's no doubt that some parts of Hamas have conections to Iran.
But unlike Hizbollah, the Hamas isn't the puppet of Iran.
I think that's what he meant.

But sure Erdogan is a loser. Populism at it's best.

[Snoshi]

Less connections to Iran, don't means they are saints.
There's no doubt that some parts of Hamas have conections to Iran.
But unlike Hizbollah, the Hamas isn't the puppet of Iran.
I think that's what he meant.

So whose puppet is it then? Its pretty clear that leaders in Gaza have little power compared to who live outside.

[4X4Driver]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304647693&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
rofl
What a loser.. Even Egypt says that it is.. But no, Hamas are just misunderstood saints!

He event went further by saying " Look what we've become in Turkey when we were given chance and been supported by the west"

He simply don't see any difference between themselves and the Hamas.

[Mackie]

So whose puppet is it then? Its pretty clear that leaders in Gaza have little power compared to who live outside.

Money isn't the problem and to have power you don't need official support of any regime. Private benefits from Saudi Arabia, Syria, ... are quite enough.
weapons come from Africa.

[4X4Driver]

@ 4X4 Driver
I don't see what you 're trying to prove with that quote of mine; it's exactly a case where I didn't take sides. But even if I had taken sides in favor of Erdogan, my questions would still be legitimate:

Your so called "questions" answered clearly by me in my previous post:


Well..as a greek, you know damn well that no Kemalist will ever approve anything out of Atatürk's path under any circumstances..so your "questions" does not even have any base to begin with.
Read this thread and at least six other threads that's been started (some by the greeks) about Erdogan in the near past you'll find them easy, cuz you also had conributed with your "valuable" inputs in some of those threads.

Your "questions" regarding this matter are not legit on the norms of sincerety.

You're up to something else and everyone knows what it is.

[Zeev]

Money isn't the problem and to have power you don't need official support of any regime. Private benefits from Saudi Arabia, Syria, ... are quite enough.
weapons come from Africa.

weapons from africa? where particulary?

[Mackie]

weapons from africa? where particulary?

Reported by German ZDF. They interviewed a Egyptian trader smuggling weapons through the tunnels near the Egypt border.
He said that weapons came from Africa transported through Syria.
Most weapons are from recent conflicts like Dafur. Not new ones.

[Snoshi]

Reported by German ZDF. They interviewed a Egyptian trader smuggling weapons through the tunnels near the Egypt border.
He said that weapons came from Africa transported through Syria.
Most weapons are from recent conflicts like Dafur. Not new ones.

BS!! I did not know that Sudan was making special "grad" rockets with less payload but with longer range..

[Mackie]

BS!! I did not know that Sudan was making special "grad" rockets with less payload but with longer range..

Did I say that all weapons came from Sudan?
And what's so special reducing payload in Grad rockets? A 1950s system.
Of course, smuggling structures a much more difficult and Iran delivers the Grad rockets.

[RoyB]

Less connections to Iran, don't means they are saints.
There's no doubt that some parts of Hamas have conections to Iran.
But unlike Hizbollah, the Hamas isn't the puppet of Iran.
I think that's what he meant.

But sure Erdogan is a loser. Populism at it's best.
Hamas is a puppet of Syria, Syria is a kind of a puppet of Iran..no difference anyway.

[Mackie]

Hamas is a puppet of Syria, Syria is a kind of a puppet of Iran..no difference anyway.

I wouldn't say that. Position of Syria is insecure.
Thinking in black and white is too simple.
Assad knows the price of isolation.
Good American foreign politics could make a pro-western Syria possible.
I don't think Assad is the problem. It's more the population.

Not everything is a puppet. With enough private donations, it's possible fight your own interests. Sad but true.

[m.i.t]

Hamas is a puppet of Syria, Syria is a kind of a puppet of Iran..no difference anyway.


No. Hamas is a sunni group unlike hezbollah ... Iran definetely dont support sunni groups...

As mackie said mostly hamas is supported by independet sunni groups from saudi arabia and other countries...

Syria has no direct control over Hamas like Hezbollah...

[Snoshi]

No. Hamas is a sunni group unlike hezbollah ... Iran definetely dont support sunni groups...

As mackie said mostly hamas is supported by independet sunni groups from saudi arabia and other countries...

Syria has no direct control over Hamas like Hezbollah...

Wth have you been smoking?

[Mackie]

No. Hamas is a sunni group unlike hezbollah ... Iran definetely dont support sunni groups...

As mackie said mostly hamas is supported by independet sunni groups from saudi arabia and other countries...

Syria has no direct control over Hamas like Hezbollah...

You understood wrong.
Iran supports Hamas with money, weapons and combat training but like you say it's still a mostly independent sunni group.
Unlike Hezbollah, the Iranian support of Hamas is a new effect founded on Ahmadinejads anti-Israeli politics.

[tanks_alot]

No. Hamas is a sunni group unlike hezbollah ... Iran definetely dont support sunni groups...

As mackie said mostly hamas is supported by independet sunni groups from saudi arabia and other countries...

Syria has no direct control over Hamas like Hezbollah...

Right... you do know that Khaled Mashal, the Hamas leader, is living in Damascus, along with the Hamas HQ....? i'm guessing you didn't know that. i'm also guessing that you didn't know that through out the duration of operation Cast Lead, the Hamas leadership in Gaza was pushing towards a cease fire but the stronger leadership in Damascus was pushing for the continuation of the fighting.

People need to understand that the US invasion of Iraq in 2003, has completly reshuffled the cards in the Middle East. before the invasion, Saddam's Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Iran were all supporting the different Palestinian terror groups. after the invasion, Iran has began to emerge as a stronger player in the region, shadowing Saudi Arabia's support, which was mostly financial. the Sunni regimes aren't the keen anymore to support the Hamas which is viewd as an Iranian project and that's why you get such harsh statements from Egypt for example, towards Hamas and Hezballah.

Hamas members pass through tunnels from Gaza and then travel to Iran in order to train, a great deal of the financing is from Iran and Syria - Iran's weaker ally (something which made Assad not so popular with the other Arab regimes). also look up the Karin A (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karine_A).

[Ulytau]

^^^^

Before Iraq War Iran had problem with sunni groups as i know ''also as i check too'' also their diplomats killed from the Taliban if i remember true

[Snoshi]

^^^^

Before Iraq War Iran had problem with sunni groups as i know ''also as i check too'' also their diplomats killed from the Taliban if i remember true

Hamas cannot hurt Iran and they are dependant on it.. Its a win win for Iran which can use it to hurt Israel.

[Ulytau]

Hamas cannot hurt Iran and they are dependant on it.. Its a win win for Iran which can use it to hurt Israel.

Especially Lebanon ''wanna add Lebanon too'' always been like battlefield between some countries and powers..

Sad thing especially Lebanon became safe place for the terror groups many years ''valley of Bekaa and other issues''

[RoyB]

No. Hamas is a sunni group unlike hezbollah ... Iran definetely dont support sunni groups...

As mackie said mostly hamas is supported by independet sunni groups from saudi arabia and other countries...

Syria has no direct control over Hamas like Hezbollah...
I recommend that you read Tanks_Alot post..

[m.i.t]

Olmert warns ministers against deepening schism with Turkey





Despite his warning, Olmert added that Turkey, a key ally of Israel, was "not exempt from domestic considerations... being a Muslim state on the eve of elections."

"The Turks also know that we are obliged to thwart terrorism," he said.

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, meanwhile, said on Sunday that the onus was on Ankara to get tough with Hamas, which won a 2006 Palestinian vote but has been shunned by the West for refusing to recognize Israel and stop firing rockets at Israel from Gaza.

"It must be remembered that after Hamas took power, Turkey was the first country to invite them over, so we find ourselves both in an important relationship but also in a dispute about how to conduct ourselves regionally," Livni told Israel Radio.

"Despite the street demonstrations, despite the difficult images from Gaza ... Hamas is everyone's problem. And most countries in the region, in the Middle East, have understood this more than the Turks," said Livni.

Shifting focus to Iran and its nuclear plans, Livni said other nations in the region "understand that Iran is everyone's problem" and steps need to be taken to deny it the means for making an atomic bomb. Tehran denies having any such intent.

"Turkey, in this case, has found itself in a regional position different to everyone else," Livni said.

Friendly with an Arab world over which it ruled in Ottoman times, Turkey has billed itself as a force for rapprochement, hosting indirect peace talks between Israel and Syria last year.

Ankara's army is also an important Israeli defence client. Assumed to have the Middle East's only nuclear arsenal, Israel has held air force drills in northern Turkey which may have been designed to convey strategic reach in the face of Iran.

Some Israeli diplomats have voiced quiet concern over the direction of Turkey under Erdogan's Islamist-rooted AK party. The flareup of tensions over Gaza prompted many Israeli travel agents to cancel usually sold-out packages at Turkish resorts.

Speaking from Ankara, Israeli Ambassador Gabby Levy said he was working with local authorities to repair ties. He predicted improvement after next month's local elections in Turkey; some political analysts believe Erdogan's Gaza rhetoric was designed to shore up AK's popularity with a pro-Palestinian electorate.

"There is a rift in our relations. This cannot be hidden. But these relations are very important for both countries," Levy told Israel Radio, adding that "the Turkish government (is) drawing a distinction between bilateral ties and the censure they are levelling at us over the (Gaza) operation."



http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060599.html

[Snoshi]

Israeli tourism to Turkey took a nosedive after Thursday's incident at the Davos World Economic Conference, where Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan stormed off the stage after verbally sparring with President Shimon Peres over last month's fighting in the Gaza Strip.

Tourism officials are reporting massive cancelations of Turkish vacations booked for the Pesach holiday period and for this summer.

Turkey is the single most popular foreign destination for Israeli tourists, representing 13% of all departures and generating an estimated $300 million in annual revenues. About 70% of these travelers head for the resorts of Antalya. Many of the tourism packages are booked through Israeli workplaces. Israel Airports Authority figures put Turkey as Israelis' second-favorite destination for 2008 after the United States, with well over half a million taking the short hop to beaches and cheap shopping.

"We have suspended all the negotiations we had been conducting with hotels for the upcoming spring and summer in Turkey, until we feel that it is comfortable and safe there and that we are wanted in that country. Travelers are being diverted to Greece and Cyprus," Arkia Israel Airlines CEO Gad Tepper said this weekend. "Workers' committees at companies and large public institutions are canceling their activities in Turkey, and we have cut our flights to Antalya to a minimum," Tepper added.

Eyal Kashdan, CEO of the Flying Carpet travel agency, said reservations are down by 50% on last January.

Ronen Karso of Issta Travel Lines said the workers' committee of the Israel Electric Corporation informed the company that they will not be booking trips to Turkey this year, adding that other unions have done likewise.

Yossi Fattal, head of the Israel Tourist and Travel Agents Association, said that the travelers' boycott is unprecedented in Israel. He believes, however, that the impact will not be as severe as it would now appear. "The Israeli memory isn't very long - half a year is like an ice age and the memory will fade."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060388.html

[Moledet]

It isn't really a boycott, people are simply scared to travel to Turkey and for a good reason. Government seem to be extremely anti-Israeli and so are the people on the street. I doubt anyone feel like going to a vacation to be attacked or sit in jail for defending himself from an attacker.

What you see in the media is thousands of Turks burning Israeli flags and chanting all kind of slogans from Hamas rallies. There was even a story about Pini Balili and his life in Turkey during the war. He stopped walking around town-he only drives there and never gets out of his car and he couldn't play in a Cup game due to threats. If the Turkish league top scorer feels threatened in his team's home town than how would a regular Israeli feel?
Who needs something like this? It's better to visit Greece.

[4X4Driver]

I've had my days in the tourism industry in Turkey not too long ago and I still have contacts in and around Antalya. Most of the Israeli tourists during my time, use to come just for gambling in the Casinos..they don't even find time to get around the town for shopping...I hear it's still same.

This boycott will not have any effect on the Turkish tourism. I'm sure there are ppl who supports Erdogan around the world will fill the gap.

Just go to Greece...I'm sure they they love you there.

[Zeev]

Just go to Greece...I'm sure they they love you there.

Or stay in israel, there are enough beautiful beaches and sunshine over there.. ;)

[4X4Driver]

Or stay in israel, there are enough beautiful beaches and sunshine over there.. ;)


Splendid idea :)

[Moledet]

Just go to Greece...I'm sure they they love you there.
They don't, but at least you wouldn't be humiliated or killed.
There was a report about a sign in Antalya, "Dogs are welcome. Jews and Armenians aren't welcome."

[4X4Driver]

They don't, but at least you wouldn't be humiliated or killed.
There was a report about a sign in Antalya, "Dogs are welcome. Jews and Armenians aren't welcome."

I'm sure you'll find assholes that kind allover the world. Just do as you please...I'm sure the Turkish tourism won't even notice your absence...

[Zeev]

I'm sure the Turkish tourism won't even notice your absence...

For sure, and after all it is not the goal, the less numerous Israeli do not claim to be able to strike the turkish tourism. If people decided not to come, this is for reasons of safety, as moledet said.

The fact that we notice or not their absence is the last anxiety of Israeli, they have not these claims.

The blindness of your resentment makes you say anything.

[4X4Driver]

For sure, and after all it is not the goal, the less numerous Israeli do not claim to be able to strike the turkish tourism. If people decided not to come, this is for reasons of safety, as moledet said.

The fact that we notice or not their absence is the last anxiety of Israeli, they have not these claims.

hmm...strange. The article snoshi posted was trying to imply otherwise...:roll:


The blindness of your resentment makes you say anything.

I've said averthing that can be said regarding the latest developments..it can't be my problem that you have serious comprehension problems...sorry.

[ggk]

do i hear boycott!?? :)

i learned why mr Erdogan were pissed of by mr Peres.

"During his speech, [Peres] from time to time turned and addressed directly at me in a manner and style that is not in the spirit of free discussion that we see in Davos,"

Erdogan told reporters in a hastily convened press conference after the incident.

Erdogan: Mr. Peres, you are older than me. Your voice is very loud. I know that you are speaking aloud because of the requirement of a sense of guilt. My voice will not be that loud. About murdering, you know killing very well. I am well aware how you murdered children on beaches.


Two former prime ministers of your country had important sayings to me. You have former prime ministers who say when I entered Palestine over armed combat cars, I consider myself more and more pleased. I can give their names, maybe some of you wonder. Besides, I condemn those of you who applaud this persecution. Because applauding these killers who murdered those children, who massacred those people is, I believe, also another crime committed against humanity.


Look, we cannot disregard a reality here. Here, I jotted down a lot of notes, but I dont have time to answer all of them. But, I will say you only two things:

Moderator: Excuse me Prime Minister, we can't start the debate again.

Erdogan: Excuse me. First, excuse me, do NOT interrupt me! First, The Old Testament says in the 6th commandment: You shall not kill! But there is murder here.


Second, this is also very interesting. Gilad Atzmon, a Jew himself, says: Israeli barbarity is far beyond even ordinary cruelty. Besides, Avi Shlaim, Professor of Oxford who performed his military duty in Israeli army, says in the Guardian the following:

Moderator: Prime Minister, Prime Minister. I wanna ask to our host.

Erdogan: Israel became a gangster state. (to the moderator) I thank you, too. For me, Davos is done for me from now on. I will not come again. You all know this in this way. You are not letting us speak. (Showing Peres) He spoke for 25 minutes, but you let e speak 12 minutes. No way!

[Amateur]

This boycott will not have any effect on the Turkish tourism. I'm sure there are ppl who supports Erdogan around the world will fill the gap.

Yes, of course... I heard Borat is on his way to Turkey now and wants to become a regular... Niiice... :)

http://www.herecomestheboss.com/images/news/lg_a-borat2.jpg

Sorry, just a harmless joke, couldn't resist p-) Please continue with the serious discussion.

[kahn267]

To throw things back on topic.....





A climate of fear
Feb. 1, 2009
Abe Selig , THE JERUSALEM POST

Ever since she was a kid, Sheila wanted to be married in Istanbul's famous Neveh Shalom Synagogue.
"It's a very beautiful place," the 26-year-old told The Jerusalem Post on Sunday. "Growing up in Istanbul, all the girls want to to have their weddings there."
But Sheila, who made aliya three years ago and lives in Jerusalem, said that given the dramatic increase in anti-Israel and anti-Semitic sentiment in Turkey following Operation Cast Lead in the Gaza Strip last month, her dream wedding is turning into something of a nightmare.
"I was engaged three months ago," said Sheila, who asked that her last name not be published out of fear for her family's safety, all of whom still live in the Turkish metropolis. "My fiance is Israeli, and his family no longer wants to go there for the wedding. On top of that, when my mother goes to the ministry offices to try and get the marriage forms filled out, they won't help her. They won't help her because she's Jewish."
Describing a "climate of fear" in her former hometown, the Turkish immigrant said she will most likely cancel her wedding plans.
"Frankly, I'm scared to have my wedding there now," she said. "On the one hand, yeah, it's my dream, but on the other hand, the situation there has simply gotten out of control."
"Every day it gets worse," Sheila continued. "My parents told me that a shopkeeper near one of the Jewish neighborhoods, where my grandparents live, put a sign in the window of his store that said, 'No Jews allowed, but dogs are welcome.'
"Even when my parents go to buy a phone card to call me, they get harassed by the shopkeepers the minute they say they're trying to make a call to Israel."
Sheila also said that during the war, billboards went up around town decrying the Israeli "crimes" in Gaza, and the government made students in every Turkish school stand for a moment of silence in solidarity with the children of Gaza.
"They even had to do it at the Jewish school I went to as a kid," Sheila said. "I can only imagine how uncomfortable the students must have felt."
And while she admits that Turkish anti-Semitism was always a festering force somewhere in the shadows, Sheila said it's now reached levels unseen in her lifetime, or in that of her parents, and is spilling over into the streets.
"Just look at the way they stood outside to meet [Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan] when he came back from Davos," Sheila said, referring to the popular head of government's grand reception after his televised spat with President Shimon Peres. "He's the one to blame for this, he's rallying the poor and uninformed people behind his rhetoric, and they're buying it. We knew it would be bad the minute he came into the government, but we never thought it would be this bad."
Sheila is not alone.
Nathalie, also a new immigrant from Istanbul, lives in Tel Aviv. She agreed to speak to the [I]Post, but also asked that her last name remain unpublished.
"I'm going there on Friday," Nathalie said. "And yes, I'm a little scared."
"I think this is the sign of Turkey moving toward a very dangerous future," she said. "Since the Gaza war started, the newspapers have been writing really nasty stuff and the demonstrations on the street have gotten really ugly. It's not just against Israel," she said. "they're demonstrating against Jews."
"I think people are starting to think about leaving," Nathalie continued. "But then there are those who feel like it will calm down as well. I think the main thing to remember is that local elections are coming up in Turkey, and the prime minister is demonizing the Jews to rally more votes. It's like a classic anti-Semitic theme. But at the same time, there's such strong ties between Israel and Turkey, it makes you wonder if he's crazy. It doesn't make any sense."
Itzik Behar, who made aliya from Izmir in 1948, agrees.
"They need us more than we need them," he said, as he stood outside of a barber shop in Jerusalem's Mahaneh Yehuda Market on Sunday. "But I'll tell you the truth, I love Turkey, I used to go back all the time. But now, I wouldn't go there if you paid me."
Behar cited two reasons.
"First, it's because of the situation there now - I'd be afraid for my safety, as an Israeli and as a Jew.
"But second, it's because of that fear. I'm really angry with the Turks. They always received me so well, and treated me like a brother - after all, I grew up there. But to see this on the news every night, the way they're demonstrating and being violent, I feel like they've turned on me, like they're traitors," Behar said. "They turned on all of Israel in a heartbeat, and I don't think many Israelis will forget that. Go to the airport and see how many Israelis are flying to Turkey today. No, you know what, I'll save you the trip. None. Zero."

[Snoshi]

woot

Turkey's role in mediating the Israeli-Arab conflict has been compromised by its leader's repeated censure of Israel's recent war in the Gaza Strip, a government official said Monday.

Turkey, a secular country ruled by an Islamic-oriented party, had long been Israel's best friend in the Muslim world. The two countries have wide-ranging military, economic and strategic ties, and last year Ankara hosted months of indirect talks between Israel and Syria after an eight-year breakdown.

But Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has been especially vocal in his criticism of Operation Cast Lead, and last week, he stormed out of a high-profile world forum where he confronted Israel's president over Palestinian civilian casualties.

Erdogan's outbursts thrust Turkey into the role of championing Hamas. In Gaza, Erdogan was hailed as a hero, but Israel doesn't see him in that light.

"He won't mediate anything any more," the government official said. "His stint as mediator between Israel and the Arabs is over, that's for sure. He won't be accepted as an honest broker by Israel at all."

The official spoke on condition of anonymity as he was not authorized to disclose Israeli policy. He said no official decision had to be taken, but that Israeli leaders spoke about Erdogan in such a way that made it clear they did not have faith in him as a mediator.

Any Israel discontent is directed at Erdogan personally, and should not be misconstrued as a rupture with Turkey, whose cooperation Israel values, he added.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304664569&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[ting]

I don`t think the role of mediator has any glamor in it, and I don`t think Erdogan will care, since I don`t think he is convinced that Israel really wants peace.

[saladin]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060783.html



Israeli and Turkish officials meet to ease tensions over Gaza op
By Barak Ravid
Tags: israel news, ehud olmert

Israeli and Turkish officials are engaged in behind-the-scenes discussions aimed at easing tensions between the two countries in the wake of Israel's operation in the Gaza Strip.

Shalom Turjeman, an adviser to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, is said to be holding talks with an aide of Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in an attempt to improve relations between Jerusalem and Ankara.

"Israel has no intention of deepening the crisis and we are trying to calm things down," a source in the Prime Minister's Office said yesterday. "Relations with Turkey are a strategic asset to both countries and we are interested that they remain as such."
Advertisement
Ties between Israel and Turkey reached a new low on Friday when Erdogan stalked off the stage at the World Economic Forum at Davos, after sparring with President Shimon Peres over Operation Cast Lead.

At the weekly cabinet meeting Sunday, Olmert commented for the first time on the deterioration of Israel's relationship with Turkey.

"Turkey also has its domestic political considerations - it's a Muslim country on the eve of elections," Olmert explained. "Our ties with it are important."

Last month Erdogan lashed out at Olmert for not telling him about the operation in Gaza when the two met in Ankara a few days before it was launched. Erdogan accused the prime minister of "back-stabbing" and "hurting Turkish national pride." He added that the operation had thwarted Turkish efforts to mediate peace negotiations between Israel and Syria, which he said were close to a breakthrough that could have led to direct talks.

Also at the cabinet meeting, Defense Minister Ehud Barak commented that, "Turkey is a country of strategic importance in the Middle East."

"We have a long history of extensive and important ties with Turkey," he added. "The sooner we ease tensions and reach a mutual understanding with it on how to fight terror - the better. Turkey has a long history of fighting terror and it has shown its determination to do so. I'm certain the situation will be eased and our good ties will be renewed."

Since the incident at Davos, travel agents have reported massive cancelations of flights by Israeli tourists to Turkey.

[Moledet]

kahn267, that's crazy. They went way over the line.


I don`t think the role of mediator has any glamor in it, and I don`t think Erdogan will care, since I don`t think he is convinced that Israel really wants peace.
Depends, if you are successful it is. If he is able to get peace between Israel and Syria he gets a Noble peace prize without a doubt.

It also shows the country's influence on the international arena. Right now the Turkish government has no influence on other countries/groups in the ME.

[ting]

kahn267, that's crazy. They went way over the line.


Depends, if you are successful it is. If he is able to get peace between Israel and Syria he gets a Noble peace prize without a doubt.

It also shows the country's influence on the international arena. Right now the Turkish government has no influence in the ME.

I`m sure a Nobel peace prize would be nice, but I don`t think that is much of a motivator.

On influence, it`s a bit more complicated. There are many influential players, but the key is IMHO the ability to influence Israel. The only one who can do that is the US.

[Amateur]

Right now the Turkish government has no influence on other countries/groups in the ME.
Well if he 's opting for the role of panislamic leader, that would of course distance him from Israel, but would definitely give him more influence on other countries in the region. I asked some questions in this regard some pages ago (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3887223&postcount=362), but only one turkish member answered and the rest of them just questioned my motives. However, it seems I 'm not the only one detecting this tendency in Erdogan's policy:



Erdogan's Middle East Diplomacy: A New Nasser in the Making?
Publication: Eurasia Daily Monitor Volume: 6 Issue: 9
January 15, 2009 01:40 PM Age: 18 days
Category: Eurasia Daily Monitor, Turkey, Foreign Policy
By: Emrullah Uslu (http://www.jamestown.org/programs/edm/single/articles-by-author/?no_cache=1&tx_cablanttnewsstaffrelation_pi1%5Bauthor%5D=480)
Since Israel’s Gaza offensive began, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has used harsh rhetoric about Israeli operations in Gaza. Erdogan’s sharp criticism of Israel has motivated the Turkish public to take to the streets to protest against the Gaza offensive (see EDM, January 7). In addition to his harsh criticism toward Israeli policies, Erdogan quickly launched a diplomatic attack to convince both Israel and Hamas to agree to a cease-fire. First, Erdogan traveled through the Middle East in an attempt to implement a cease-fire. Erdogan’s tour did not produce any tangible results, but it did help Turkey to participate in the continuing cease-fire negotiations.

On January 9 Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak asked Erdogan to send a special envoy to Egypt to join in the cease-fire negotiations between Egypt, the Palestinian Authority, and Hamas officials. A delegation under the leadership of Ahmet Davutoglu, Erdogan's top foreign policy adviser, was sent to take part in the negotiations. Positive developments prompted the Turkish delegation to make an unplanned visit to Damascus to meet with the Syrian foreign minister and Hamas officials. The Turkish delegation’s contacts reportedly “have made significant contributions to the cease-fire process and…developments concerning this issue are moving in a positive direction” (Today’s Zaman, January 13). Hamas’s spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said, “Turkey’s suggestions for the cease-fire were the most constructive and balanced so far” (Zaman, January 13). Spanish Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos announced that Hamas had finally agreed to the Egyptian plan (Yeni Safak, January 15).

In addition to Turkey’s diplomatic presence in Middle Eastern affairs, Erdogan’s condemnation of Israel has made him especially popular among ordinary Arabs. The Turkish press reported that a big anti-Israel demonstration was held in Damascus and participants chanted “Arab leaders, traitors; hello to Tayyip Erdogan” (Yeni Safak, January 15).

Erdogan’s censure of Israel made headlines across the Arab world. It was reported by Al Jazeera, and Arab readers enthusiastically supported Erdogan’s position, saying:

“Erdogan is not a man of words; he is a man of action. Erdogan! I thank you for your courage at a time when everybody prefers to keep silent," wrote Ramadan Ahmet Muhammad, a regular reader of Al Jazeera news. Another enthusiastic reader, Muhammad Ataullah Uthman, said he raised his hat to Erdogan’s remarks and called for the Turkish prime minister to continue efforts to gather all Arabs and Muslims under the flag of Turkey. Khalid Ahmed al-Aydi says, "Oh God! Help Islam and the Muslims with this bold man. He is not afraid of anyone but God. Help him in his efforts for the Muslim community and a strong Turkey. I would like so much for all Muslims to be united under the flag of this man against the enemies of Islam" (Today’s Zaman, January 9).
Just as popular Egyptian leader Gamal Abdel Nasser had won the support in the streets across Arab world with his anti-imperialist rhetoric in 1950s, Erdogan is winning popularity among Arabs with his anti-Israel oratory. Erdogan’s popularity was not limited to the man in the street, however. Arab intellectuals have also shown their support for Erdogan’s efforts and statements about the Israeli offensive in Gaza. Syrian Journalist, Husnu Mahalli, who writes for the Turkish daily Aksam, said that with his point of view, Erdogan would receive 90 percent of the vote if he established a party in Syria or Egypt (www.haber7.com (http://www.haber7.com/), January 10). Jordanian columnist Hamadeh Faraneh said:

Arabs were moved on two fronts: By the sensitivity the Turkish nation showed to the passion of the Palestinian people and by the historical and official stance of the Turkish government in the face of Israel and its readiness to help the Palestinian people, both materially and spiritually. Today, Turkey overcame the memories of World War I. I can say that since World War I, Turkey's image in the Arab world has never been better (Today’s Zaman, January 7).
Khalaf Ahmed Al Habtoor, a columnist from Lebanon’s The Daily Star, wrote:

Few heroes have emerged on the diplomatic level during the Gaza conflict; and, sadly, the Arab world hasn't managed to produce even one. Turkey's position on Gaza has been clear and crisp, in sharp contrast to our own regretful diplomatic paralysis…I salute Mr. Erdogan for his unequivocal message to Israel, his country's long-time ally. Speaking on January 4, he said, “God will sooner or later punish those who transgress the rights of innocents.” I suspect these courageous words have reverberated in the minds and hearts of all Arabs as they did within my own. …Unlike Turkey, at the start of Israel's campaign some Arab governments contented themselves with blaming Hamas for Israel's bombs. Instead of standing together against a country that occupies, oppresses, and murders our fellow Arabs, our leaders chose either to discredit the victims or virtually ignore them (The Daily Star, January 13 )
It should be noted that the positive change in the Arab view toward Turkey began with the Justice and Development Party (AKP)’s new Middle East policy initiatives. With these initiatives, the Erdogan government has attempted to deepen its influence in the countries of the Middle East. The efforts of the AKP government have started producing warm feelings toward Turkey among the Arabs. Al Ahram Weekly recently stated that “while it may have been the case that Turkish secularists have been more or less aloof to the concerns and issues of the Middle East, the tendency [among Arabs], now, is to see Turkey as no more than the Justice and Development Party, as though this were not [just] one among several other political parties in Turkey” (Al Ahram Weekly, December 3-9, 2008). It seems that his recent statements against Israel and his sincere stance on the Palestinian issue have helped make Erdogan a hero, if not a new Nasser, in the Arab world. It remains to be seen, however, whether it will help Turkey become an active diplomatic player in Middle Eastern affairs.

Source: http://www.jamestown.org/programs/edm/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=34359&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=27&cHash=32be9f5542


Perhaps Turkish members would now like to address the issue; or perhaps Israeli members might want to discuss my other question (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3889563&postcount=390): whether Erdogan, although obviously unpopular to Israel because of his statements, is still a milder islamic leader to discuss with than, say, the mullahs in Iran; and whether his emergence as pan-islamic leader would still be to the benefit of Israel.

[4X4Driver]

Yes, of course... I heard Borat is on his way to Turkey now and wants to become a regular... Niiice... :)

http://www.herecomestheboss.com/images/news/lg_a-borat2.jpg

Sorry, just a harmless joke, couldn't resist p-) Please continue with the serious discussion.


Naaah..I'm sure Sacha Baron Cohen will join the rest of the Jews and hop into the Turkey boycott bandwagon. Him too, will be visiting Greece. rofl



wootwootwoot

Turkey's role in mediating the Israeli-Arab conflict has been compromised by its leader's repeated censure of Israel's recent war in the Gaza Strip, a government official said Monday.

Turkey, a secular country ruled by an Islamic-oriented party, had long been Israel's best friend in the Muslim world. The two countries have wide-ranging military, economic and strategic ties, and last year Ankara hosted months of indirect talks between Israel and Syria after an eight-year breakdown.

But Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has been especially vocal in his criticism of Operation Cast Lead, and last week, he stormed out of a high-profile world forum where he confronted Israel's president over Palestinian civilian casualties.

Erdogan's outbursts thrust Turkey into the role of championing Hamas. In Gaza, Erdogan was hailed as a hero, but Israel doesn't see him in that light.

"He won't mediate anything any more," the government official said. "His stint as mediator between Israel and the Arabs is over, that's for sure. He won't be accepted as an honest broker by Israel at all."

The official spoke on condition of anonymity as he was not authorized to disclose Israeli policy. He said no official decision had to be taken, but that Israeli leaders spoke about Erdogan in such a way that made it clear they did not have faith in him as a mediator.

Any Israel discontent is directed at Erdogan personally, and should not be misconstrued as a rupture with Turkey, whose cooperation Israel values, he added. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304664569&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

[4X4Driver]

I was talking about Borat, as a fiction character and as a mentality, and Borat seems to be joining you in Turkey pretty soon... p-)

As you say..a fiction character and does not exist...but Sacha Baron Cohen will be in Greece... and in real life, he's not too far from Borat character.

What a gain for you and for your country... :)

[chris450]

Turkish media reports that an Iranian cleric has proposed Erdogan for the Nobel Peace Price :)

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_np/0153/7270153.jpg

Snoshi is going to have a party with this one lol

[Nickchios]

I've had my days in the tourism industry in Turkey not too long ago and I still have contacts in and around Antalya. Most of the Israeli tourists during my time, use to come just for gambling in the Casinos..they don't even find time to get around the town for shopping...I hear it's still same.

This boycott will not have any effect on the Turkish tourism. I'm sure there are ppl who supports Erdogan around the world will fill the gap.

Just go to Greece...I'm sure they they love you there.


I have a better idea....

Visit one island in Aegean sea, then take a boat and visit a Turkish city in the opposite coast.

I am sure you will be safe in both places...!

[eugenlitwin]

Turkish media reports that an Iranian cleric has proposed Erdogan for the Nobel Peace Price :)

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_np/0153/7270153.jpg

Snoshi is going to have a party with this one lol


maybe its a good Iranian cleric! liberal one , not the all Iranian clerics are evil women haters

[Snoshi]

maybe its a good Iranian cleric! liberal one , not the all Iranian clerics are evil women haters


A senior Iranian cleric called on Sunday for Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan to be awarded a Nobel Peace Prize for his courageous act at the World Economic Forum, the Iranian state radio IRNA reported.

According to the report, Ayatollah Naser Makerem-Shirazi told a group of students that Erdogan had "taken a decisive and crushing stand against the atrocities of the Zionist regime in the occupied lands."

Erdogan walked off stage at a panel discussion on Gaza at the World Economic Forum after tension were heightened between the Turkish premier and Israeli President Shimon Peres.
http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=35936

[Snoshi]

An official with a leading American Jewish organization told the The Jerusalem Post on Monday that a deterioration in Israel-Turkey relations might prompt his group and others to reconsider Armenian efforts to win recognition of the century-old Turkish massacres as genocide.

A bill that would ensure such recognition by the US, which was backed by Rep. Adam Schiff - a Jewish Democrat who represents a heavily Armenian area of Los Angeles - failed to make it to a Congressional vote in 2007. However, it sparked a row in the American Jewish community between those who sided with Turkey in an effort to protect Israel's political interests, and those who argued that Jews were particularly responsible for helping other groups block the public denial of genocide.

"No Jew or Israeli in his right mind will insult Turkey," the official told the Post. "But next time... they might not come to Turkey's aid or equivocate quite so much on the issue."

The Bush administration opposed the bill out of concern for what it would do to US-Turkey relations.

The current blowup between Israel and Turkey comes amid expectations that the Obama administration will name academic and writer Samantha Power, an expert on genocide, to a key National Security Council post dealing with multilateral institutions. Power has been outspoken in labeling the Turkish massacre of Armenians genocide, albeit from outside the government.

One Washington-based Jewish community leader said Jewish organizations were unlikely to reorient their views and begin backing legislation to recognize the Armenian genocide, arguing that this would only make a delicate situation far worse.

"If organizations aren't backing Armenian genocide resolutions because of the Turkish-Israeli relationship and their concern about the Turkish Jewish community, I don't think they would change now," he said. "Those same concerns remain, and those same pressures remain."

Anti-Defamation League head Abraham Foxman - whose opposition to the Armenian genocide legislation in 2007 provoked widespread criticism - told the Post that as long as Israel maintained its diplomatic ties with Turkey, he saw no immediate reason to change his position on any future genocide resolutions.

"This is not a punishment or a reward issue - we don't change our position on what's right or wrong based on what people say," Foxman said. "The interests between Israel and Turkey continue."

Foxman also noted that he knew of Jewish friends who had cancelled trips to Turkey over Erdogan's comments, but described the Erdogan flap as a disagreement between "friends."

"There have been some very inappropriate harsh statements by the leadership, especially by the prime minister, which we think are inappropriate," he said, "but they have not changed the basic relationship [with Israel]."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304667096&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[HangPC2]

Repost


http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/7320/2009hamasgazasupportturnf3.jpg

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6682/2009hamasgazasupportturzu9.jpg

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9127/2009hamasgazasupportturek1.jpg

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8799/2009hamasgazasupportturez5.jpg

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2560/2009hamasgazasupportturfl9.jpg

[HangPC2]

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/549/46589593ge6.jpg

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/936/92848389om1.jpg

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/7474/65981439gc4.jpg

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5507/1067451hd7.jpg

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9571/1067448cl7.jpg

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2342/1067383cp4.jpg

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/849/25267351sl0.jpg

[m.i.t]

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/849/25267351sl0.jpg


Does that yellow flag belong to hezbollah ?
I think anti-semitisim is rising among the people..

Evryday tv chanels and news papers make much more though comments aganist ısrael..

If ısrael lobbies support anti-Turk allegations worldwide l think relations will collapse without fixable...

[Snoshi]

Does that yellow flag belong to hezbollah ?
I think anti-semitisim is rising among the people..

Evryday tv chanels and news papers make much more though comments aganist ısrael..

If ısrael lobbies support anti-Turk allegations worldwide l think relations will collapse without fixable...

Yes, it is..

[Alienoz]

Does that yellow flag belong to hezbollah ?
I think anti-semitisim is rising among the people..

Evryday tv chanels and news papers make much more though comments aganist ısrael..

If ısrael lobbies support anti-Turk allegations worldwide l think relations will collapse without fixable...

Hezbollah flag is uncommon and almost non-existant, but I went through the suburbs of Istanbul a week ago. Palestinian flags were hanging on the windows of groceries and shops. But these suburbs are from conservative/Islamic background.

Best thing that can happen is that if Nationalists win, then there can be neutral relationships between "Turks and Muslim world" and between "Turks and Western world".

Otherwise, Islamists will fulfill their agenda. A coup is almost impossible. If army takes over, economy collapses and army becomes scapegoat. Army should preserve its high place among the people.

[m.i.t]

Be cool friend topic is not Turkeys internal matters .

Our jewish people have been living with us since 1500 freely and peacefull ..
Observations of a jewish rooted communist idiot cant change this reality .

l havent seen any problem for our jewish people.Just bunch of extremist idiots are everywhere all over the world .
Offcourse 72 million people country has got own extremists...

[Alienoz]

Be cool friend topic is not Turkeys internal matters .


Second part of my post is not directed at you. Many members in this forum hope that army would take over the control. I was trying to say: Dont mix Turkish army into Jewish problems.

[saladin]

ERDOGAN'S OUTBURST AND THE FUTURE OF THE TURKISH STATE

By George Friedman

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan exploded during a public discussion with
Israeli President Shimon Peres at the annual meeting of the World Economic Forum in
Davos, Switzerland, last week. Erdogan did not blow up at Peres, but rather at the
moderator, Washington Post columnist and associate editor David Ignatius, whom
Erdogan accused of giving more time to Peres. Afterward, Erdogan said, "I did not
target at all in any way the Israeli people, President Peres or the Jewish people. I
am a prime minister, a leader who has expressly stated that anti-Semitism is a crime
against humanity."

Nevertheless, the international press focused not on the finer points of Erdogan's
reasoning, but rather on his attacks on Israeli policy in Gaza and his angry exit,
which many thought were directed at Peres and Israel. The confusion, we suspect,
suited Erdogan quite well. Turkey is effectively an ally of Israel. Given this
alliance, the recent events in Gaza put Erdogan in a difficult position. The Turkish
prime minister needed to show his opposition to Israel's policies to his followers
in Turkey's moderate Islamist community without alarming Turkey's military that he
was moving to rupture relations with Israel. Whether calculated or not, Erdogan's
explosion in Davos allowed him to appear to demonstrate vocal opposition to Israel
-- directly to Israel's president, no less -- without actually threatening ties with
Israel.

It is important to understand the complexity of Erdogan's political position. Ever
since the fall of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, Turkey has had a secular
government. The secularism of the government was guaranteed constitutionally by the
military, whose role it was to protect the legacy of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk -- the
founder of modern, secular Turkey, who used the army as an instrument of
nation-building. The Turkish public, in contrast, runs the gamut from
ultrasecularists to radical Islamists.

Erdogan is an elected moderate Islamist. As such, he is held in suspicion by the
army and severely circumscribed in how far he can go on religious matters. To his
right politically are more hard-line Islamist parties, which are making inroads into
Turkish public opinion. Erdogan must balance between these forces, avoiding the two
extreme outcomes of military intervention and Islamist terrorism.

Meanwhile, from a geopolitical perspective, Turkey is always in an uncomfortable
place. Asia Minor is the pivot of Eurasia. It is the land bridge between Asia and
Europe, the northern frontier of the Arab world and the southern frontier of the
Caucasus. Its influence spreads outward toward the Balkans, Russia, Central Asia,
the Arab world and Iran. Alternatively, Turkey is the target of forces emanating
from all of these directions. Add to this its control of the Bosporus, which makes
Turkey the interface between the Mediterranean and Black Sea, and the complexity of
Turkey's position becomes clear: Turkey is always either under pressure from its
neighbors or pressuring its neighbors. It is perpetually being drawn outward in
multiple directions, even into the eastern Mediterranean.

Turkey has two different paths for dealing with its geopolitical challenge.

Secular Isolationism

From the army's point of view, the Ottoman Empire was a disaster that entangled
Turkey into the catastrophe of Word War I. One of Ataturk's solutions involved not
only contracting Turkey after the war, but containing it in such a way that it could
not be drawn into the extreme risk of imperial adventure.

In World War II, both Axis and Allies wooed and subverted Turkey. But the country
managed -- with difficulty -- to maintain neutrality, thereby avoiding another
national catastrophe.

During the Cold War, Turkey's position was equally difficult. Facing Soviet pressure
from the north, the Turks had to ally themselves with the United States and NATO.
Turkey possessed something the Soviets desperately wanted: the Bosporus, which would
have given the Soviet navy unimpeded access to the Mediterranean. Naturally, the
Turks could not do anything about their geography, nor could they cede the Bosporus
to the Soviets without sacrificing their independence. But neither could they
protect it by themselves. Thus, left with only the choice of NATO membership, the
Turks joined the Western alliance.

There was a high degree of national unity on this subject. Whatever the ideologies
involved, the Soviets were viewed as a direct threat to Turkey. Therefore, using
NATO and the United States to help guarantee Turkish territorial integrity was
ultimately something around which a consensus could form. NATO membership, of
course, led to complications, as these things always do.

To counter the American relationship with Turkey (and with Iran, which also blocked
Soviet southward movement), the Soviets developed a strategy of alliances -- and
subversion -- of Arab countries. First Egypt, then Syria, Iraq and other countries
came under Soviet influence between the 1950s and 1970s. Turkey found itself in a
vise between the Soviets and Iraq and Syria. And with Egypt -- with its Soviet
weapons and advisers -- also in the Soviet orbit, Turkey's southern frontier was
seriously threatened.

Turkey had two possible responses to this situation. One was to build up its
military and economy to take advantage of its mountainous geography and deter
attack. For this, Turkey needed the United States. The second option was to create
cooperative relations with other countries in the region that were hostile to both
the Soviets and the left-wing Arab regimes. The two countries that fit this bill
were Israel and pre-1979 Iran under the shah. Iran tied down Iraq. Israel tied down
Syria and Egypt. In effect, these two countries neutralized the threat of Soviet
pressure from the south.

Thus was born the Turkish relationship with Israel. Both countries belonged to the
American anti-Soviet alliance system and therefore had a general common interest in
conditions in the eastern Mediterranean. Both countries also had a common interest
in containing Syria. From the standpoint of the Turkish army, and therefore the
Turkish government, a close collaboration with Israel made perfect sense.

Islamist Internationalism

There is a second vision of Turkey, however: that of Turkey as a Muslim power with
responsibilities beyond guaranteeing its own national security. This viewpoint would
of course break the country's relationship with Israel and the United States. In
some sense, this is a minor consideration now. Israel is no longer indispensable for
Turkish national security, and Turkey has outgrown outright dependence on the United
States. (These days, the United States needs Turkey more than Turkey needs the
United States.)

(click image to enlarge)

Under this second vision, Turkey would extend its power outward in support of
Muslims. This vision, if pursued to the full, would involve Turkey in the Balkans in
support of Albanians and Bosnians, for example. It would also see Turkey extend its
influence southward to help shape Arab regimes. And it would cause Turkey to become
deeply involved in Central Asia, where it has natural ties and influence.
Ultimately, this vision also would return Turkey to maritime power status,
influencing events in North Africa. It is at its heart a very expansionist vision,
and one that would require the active support of a military that, at present, is
somewhat squeamish about leaving home.

Along with Indonesia, Pakistan, Iran and Egypt, Turkey is one of only five major
powers in the Islamic world with enough economic and military potential to affect
anything beyond their immediate neighbors. Indonesia and Pakistan are internally
fragmented and struggling to hold together; their potential is largely bottled up.
Iran is in a long-term confrontation with the United States and must use all of its
strength in dealing with that relationship, limiting its options for expansion.
Egypt is internally crippled by its regime and economy, and without significant
internal evolutions it cannot project power.

Turkey, on the other hand, is now the world's 17th-largest economy. It boasts a
gross domestic product (GDP) that is larger than that of every other Muslim country,
including Saudi Arabia; larger than that of every EU country other than Germany, the
United Kingdom, France, Italy, Spain, and the Netherlands; and nearly five times
larger than that of Israel. In per capita GDP, Turkey ranks much lower on the global
scale, but national power -- the total weight a country can bring to bear on the
international system -- frequently depends more on the total size of the economy
than on per capita income. (Consider China, which has a per capita income less than
half that of Turkey's.) Turkey is surrounded by instability in the Arab world, in
the Caucasus and in the Balkans. But it is the most stable and dynamic economy in
its region and, after Israel, has the most effective armed forces.

On occasion, Turkey goes beyond its borders. It has, for example, moved into Iraq in
a combined air-ground operation to attack units of the Kurdistan Workers' Party, a
Kurdish separatist group. But it is Turkey's policy to avoid deep entanglements.
From the Turkish Islamist point of view, however, a power of this magnitude under
the control of an Islamist regime would be in a position to spread its influence
dramatically. As mentioned, this is not what the army or the secularists want: They
remember how the Ottoman Empire sapped Turkish strength, and they do not want a
repeat.

Erdogan's Challenge and Turkey's Future

It is not fair to say that Turkey is a deeply divided society. Instead, Turkey has
learned to blend discord. At the moment, Erdogan probably represents the center of
the Turkish political spectrum. But he is stuck trying to balance three competing
forces. The first is an economy that remains robust and is likely to grow further
despite suffering setbacks (along with the rest of the world). The second is a
capable military that does not want excessive foreign entanglements, and certainly
not for religious reasons. And the third is an Islamist movement that wants to see
Turkey as part of the Islamic world -- and perhaps even the leader of that world.

Erdogan does not want to weaken the Turkish economy, and he sees radical Islamist
ideas as endangering Turkey's middle class. He wants to placate the army and keep it
from acting politically. He also wants to placate the radical Islamists, who could
draw the army out of the barracks, or worse, weaken the economy. Erdogan thus wants
to keep business, the military and the religious sector happy simultaneously.

This is no easy task, and Erdogan was clearly furious at Israel for attacking Gaza
and making that task harder. Turkey was crucial in developing the Israeli-Syrian
dialogue. This means the wider world now views Turkey's leadership as regionally
engaged, something its risk-averse military is more than a little touchy about.
Erdogan therefore saw Israel as endangering Turkey's military-civilian power balance
and squandering its tentative steps into the regional spotlight for what he
considered a pointless operation in Gaza.

Still, Erdogan did not want to break with Israel. So he became furious with the
moderator. Whether this was calculated or simply reflected his response to the
situation he finds himself in is immaterial. The outburst allowed him to appear to
break with Israel decisively without actually creating such a rupture. He thus
deftly continued to walk his fine line.

The question is how long Erdogan can maintain the balance. The more chaotic the
region around Turkey becomes and the stronger Turkey gets, the more irresistible
will be the sheer geopolitical pressure on Turkey to fill the vacuum. Add to that an
expansionist ideology -- a Turkish Islamism -- and a potent new force in the region
could quickly emerge. The one thing that can restrain this process is Russia. If
Moscow forces Georgia to submit and brings its forces back to the Turkish border in
Armenia, the Turks will have to reorient their policy back to one of blocking the
Russians. But regardless of what level Russian power returns to over the next few
years, the longer-term growth of Turkish power is inevitable -- and something that
must be considered carefully.


This report may be forwarded or republished on your website with attribution to
http://www.stratfor.com.

Copyright 2009 Stratfor.

crdts: delenda_est_carthago @SSF

[4X4Driver]

Good read Saladin...Thanks for sharing it.

[deli_dumrul]

Best thing that can happen is that if Nationalists win, then there can be neutral relationships between "Turks and Muslim world" and between "Turks and Western world".

I am hoping for that too. The current situation can be exploited in our advantage.

This stunt is the beginning of the end of Erdogan's reign. He is already losing the support of the pro-EU business class and this was just another nail in the coffin due to the radicalization in his rhetoric.

Erdogan needs every bit of help he can muster; therefore, he ends up pulling stunts like this to prevent parties in the same line from stealing votes from his base. Having seen the professional banners that popped up 3 am in the morning, I am even wondering whether this was a calculated move or not. However, I don't think it will be enough. The looming economic crisis facing Turkey will be the last nail in the next general elections.

On a side note, he should have instead shut up, pulled a Jiu Jitsu move on that piece of sh*t called a moderator (unlike mp.net moderators p-)), and punched him to death in front of the UN chief, and I would have voted for him. At least, it would be hilarious unlike the current situation.

[Moledet]

I guess the Turkish hotel owners don't agree with 4X4Driver. For the last 48 hours they've been offering 3 nights in a hotel in Anatalya (all inclusive)+flight for 189-199$. This is a loosing price-the Turkish hotels are subsidizing it in order to get Israeli tourists back and it's working and all the flight are booked and they are adding more flights. They also published a news piece two days ago calling on Israelis to return saying that Israelis will not feel threatened and that we should leave politics aside.

[IDF_TANKER]

I guess the Turkish hotel owners don't agree with 4X4Driver. For the last 48 hours they've been offering 3 nights in a hotel in Anatalya (all inclusive)+flight for 189-199$. This is a loosing price-the Turkish hotels are subsidizing it in order to get Israeli tourists back and it's working and all the flight are booked and they are adding more flights. They also published a news piece two days ago calling on Israelis to return saying that Israelis will not feel threatened and that we should leave politics aside.

Well, money is still money. Even when they come from genocidal children murdering Zionists.

[4X4Driver]

I guess the Turkish hotel owners don't agree with 4X4Driver. For the last 48 hours they've been offering 3 nights in a hotel in Anatalya (all inclusive)+flight for 189-199$. This is a loosing price-the Turkish hotels are subsidizing it in order to get Israeli tourists back and it's working and all the flight are booked and they are adding more flights. They also published a news piece two days ago calling on Israelis to return saying that Israelis will not feel threatened and that we should leave politics aside.

As you guys says; "Source"?? :)

[Kaplanr]

Well, money is still money. Even when they come from genocidal children murdering Zionists.

Wouldn't that correctly be ..."genocidal murdering children Zionists" ?

[Alienoz]

I am hoping for that too. The current situation can be exploited in our advantage.

This stunt is the beginning of the end of Erdogan's reign. He is already losing the support of the pro-EU business class and this was just another nail in the coffin due to the radicalization in his rhetoric.

Erdogan needs every bit of help he can muster; therefore, he ends up pulling stunts like this to prevent parties in the same line from stealing votes from his base. Having seen the professional banners that popped up 3 am in the morning, I am even wondering whether this was a calculated move or not. However, I don't think it will be enough. The looming economic crisis facing Turkey will be the last nail in the next general elections.

On a side note, he should have instead shut up, pulled a Jiu Jitsu move on that piece of sh*t called a moderator (unlike mp.net moderators p-)), and punched him to death in front of the UN chief, and I would have voted for him. At least, it would be hilarious unlike the current situation.

Calculated move. Have you read the Stratfor article by Friedman? It clearly says it.


An official with a leading American Jewish organization told the The Jerusalem Post on Monday that a deterioration in Israel-Turkey relations might prompt his group and others to reconsider Armenian efforts to win recognition of the century-old Turkish massacres as genocide.

good move but shame on you guys that you have t done it before

I wonder why Swedish have so aggressive stance towards Turks? I wanna see the faces of Swedes a few decades later. With so much imported Kurds, Sweden will become Scandinavian Kurdistan soon. Am I longing for it? Not sure. But Denmark needs a good slap, for sure.

[Moledet]

As you guys says; "Source"?? :)
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3665728,00.html
If you meant source for the prices, it's in the following clubs: Top Kapi, Kremlin, Titanic, Limak Limra and Royal Wings.
http://www.flying.co.il/Search%20Results.php?searchBox=packages&searchType=packages&subjName=NOFSHONIM%253BUSA%2BBASIC%2BPKG%253BCIVIL%2BMARIAGE%253BEUROPE%2BFIT%253BEUROPE%2BPACKAGES%253B&search_country=TR&search_city=AYT&fromDate=05%2F02%2F2009&toDate=&maxPrice=&dateRange=

They are going to offer packages for 189$ for 4 nights during the week.

[4X4Driver]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3665728,00.html
If you meant source for the prices, it's in the following clubs: Top Kapi, Kremlin, Titanic, Limak Limra and Royal Wings.
http://www.flying.co.il/Search%20Results.php?searchBox=packages&searchType=packages&subjName=NOFSHONIM%253BUSA%2BBASIC%2BPKG%253BCIVIL%2BMARIAGE%253BEUROPE%2BFIT%253BEUROPE%2BPACKAGES%253B&search_country=TR&search_city=AYT&fromDate=05%2F02%2F2009&toDate=&maxPrice=&dateRange=

They are going to offer packages for 189$ for 4 nights during the week.

It's the casino hotels asking for them. Israelis don't even get out of these holtels anyways. Like I said before when I claimed their absence will go unnoticed. Their absence would not be noticed by the local business of the town.



Are you denying that Sweden is becoming day by day more non-swedish? I guess you dont count Somalis, Assyrians, Kurds as humans.

Alienoz; He couldn't care less...he's not an native Swedish himself. That's why he's so "brave" with his words. :)

[chris450]

Israelis don't even get out of these holtels anyways.

they dont get out of the hotels? wtf?

[m.i.t]

you wrong: toward oppression, assimilation

it'd never happen as you and The Swedish Migration Board know South Kurdistan today is save heaven :roll:
http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=147&a=873490&rss=2216
sorry its in Swedish

eugenlitwin....,

Give up that senseless trolls.
Topic is not kurds and armenian matter...

[deli_dumrul]

Calculated move. Have you read the Stratfor article by Friedman? It clearly says it.

Take those Stratfor articles with a grain of salt. The guy has too much time to think.

I mean I have never heard those islamists talk about Central Asia. Where is Erdogan when it comes to Uyghurs? What did they do for Azerbaidjan except posing under a mount Ararat painting with the Armenian president in Armenia?

http://i40.tinypic.com/2nup3dy.jpg

That's where that article lost its credibility for me.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Take those Stratfor articles with a grain of salt. The guy has too much time to think.

I mean I have never heard those islamists talk about Central Asia. Where is Erdogan when it comes to Uyghurs? What did they do for Azerbaidjan except posing under a mount Ararat painting with the Armenian president in Armenia?

That's where that article lost its credibility for me.


Dear Dumrul,

I do not think Stratfor article is nonsence and/or lack of credibility. I know your standing about the goverment. I share it but when you are writing about Turkic world, the all other former governments has communicated them,especially Suleyman Demirel but in the meantime, they haven't achieved to talk with Arab world and Iran. It is not very understandable if you keep your position tight and balanced in this region while not seeing the other side of geography.

The matter is not Arabs or others...there is no bad thing to negotiate with them.

[deli_dumrul]

The matter is not Arabs or others...there is no bad thing to negotiate with them.

They haven't done anything regarding Central Asia and I can not stress how important that place is. What they have been doing is sucking up to EU.

In regards to Arabs, they are not only talking to them. But clearly taking sides in the process. Again, I can not stress how dangerous that is. Almost all of the countries in the region are huge liabilities for us. There are talks about Iran going nuclear in a couple of months. How do you think Iran will respond if an Israeli bunker buster bomb made in the US lands on its soil? What is the likelihood of Iranian missiles raining on us due to US bases on our soil? I believe it is very high and you are sadly mistaken if you are expecting NATO to come to your aid. They are still waiting for Soviets in Crete... :cantbeli:Another important question is how do you think the collapse of Iran and a possible partition will affect Turkey? If Iraq is an example, you can expect another black hole sucking our much needed billions dry.

At the end, you will probably be posting those embellished articles like the Time magazine article you have been posting on every Korean War related thread. The one that is in fact hiding a gruesome reality.... That is Turkish cannon fodder. Because Turkey will be one of the countries that will have to pay the price with blood.

A likely Armenian bill and an Iran trying to exploit this might well be the boiling point in April. Like Ataturk did before WWII (Balkan Pact and Saadabad Pact), we need to stay neutral and make it clear that we are not interested in anybody's business but our own. We don't need anybody anways (we need to put the agriculture business that we destroyed in the name of EU in shape though).

Trade or talk with anybody you want, just don't pick sides and get entangled into alliances.

[Karaahmetoglu]

They haven't done anything regarding Central Asia and I can not stress how important that place is. What they have been doing is sucking up to EU.



This was not your opinion a while back. I got criticized by you for having the same opinion.

[deli_dumrul]

This was not your opinion a while back. I got criticized by you for having the same opinion.

I still don't believe in Turan or some sort of union.

Where did I say anything about a union?

[Clearday-TRForce]

They haven't done anything regarding Central Asia and I can not stress how important that place is. What they have been doing is sucking up to EU.

In regards to Arabs, they are not only talking to them. But clearly taking sides in the process. Again, I can not stress how dangerous that is. Almost all of the countries in the region are huge liabilities for us. There are talks about Iran going nuclear in a couple of months. How do you think Iran will respond if an Israeli bunker buster bomb made in the US lands on its soil? What is the likelihood of Iranian missiles raining on us due to US bases on our soil? I believe it is very high and you are sadly mistaken if you are expecting NATO to come to your aid. They are still waiting for Soviets in Crete... :cantbeli:Another important question is how do you think the collapse of Iran and a possible partition will affect Turkey? If Iraq is an example, you can expect another black hole sucking our much needed billions dry.

At the end, you will probably be posting those embellished articles like the Time magazine article you have been posting on every Korean War related thread. The one that is in fact hiding a gruesome reality.... That is Turkish cannon fodder. Because Turkey will be one of the countries that will have to pay the price with blood.

A likely Armenian bill and an Iran trying to exploit this might well be the boiling point in April. Like Ataturk did before WWII (Balkan Pact and Saadabad Pact), we need to stay neutral and make it clear that we are not interested in anybody's business but our own. We don't need anybody anways (we need to put the agriculture business that we destroyed in the name of EU in shape though).

Trade or talk with anybody you want, just don't pick sides and get entangled into alliances.


Actually I hardly understand what you are trying to tell us here and what is your deep analysis about the regional countries?

- What is your "categorization" about all these countries?
- Why Turkish state should not negotiate with its neighbours? especially to Iran? what is your problem with Iran?
- How can you stay neutral why Iran try to build up new nuclear ballistic missiles (even satellites,intercontinental missiles) and some elements try to create a state for independent Kurdish in N.Iraq soils? eagean fir problems and many more around... How could you wait for neutralization-a deep silence from a major regional power like Turkey in this geography?
- Turkey got a past all around the region and have a hinterlant,surely we can negotiate with all parts,elements,countries and what else. To block the Turkish view in the geography is not only your view,it is also the all other major powers sentences not to see us in power too.
- Emerging from a century of internal focus and relative isolation, a revitalized Turkey now faces a raft of opportunities for expansion on the world stage and in the middle east-caucasus-balkans-west and east sides.
- I surely catch on your point. The issue is not religion or blackish future or secret agendas.It must do three things. The first of these is to secure its internal political stability and the second is to deal with the ambitions of its neighbors.

Turkey’s third imperative is to select an opportunity to focus on, and there certainly is no shortage of options. The menu includes Iran, the Caucasus, Ukraine, Central Asia, the Balkans and Iraq. So being in a neutral side is to mean to stay outside of your hinterlant and to put all opportunities a way from you. Why should we do that?

- One-quarter of Iran’s population — the Azeri minority centered in the Tabriz region — is of Turkic descent. Therefore, the possibility of increasing Turkish power in this region beckons, because of the opportunity not only to break an eons-old rival but also to be able to tap a fifth column to do so. So? Why should I stay neutral? Turkey is looking to expand its geopolitical influence, not to trigger a difficult war. It is better in the midterm to seek a truce with Iran somewhat similar to that with Greece, including a deal that would see some limited economic integration using natural gas as the tie that binds. After all, Turkey needs to maximize diversification of its energy sources so that it retains the option of moving against one supplier should a solid opportunity present itself. In time, that may well be Iran — but it is not at the present time.

well, brother Dumrul, let is continue,

- Turkey must engage the Caucasus, since the region abuts Turkish territory, but this is the sort of region in which empires are buried.Other regional powers (Iran and Russia) can always check Turkish ambitions. Turkey can not stay neutral there forever. To find a balance in the region is to gain advantages in other sides as well for using further steps against them in some parts. Hazar Sea - Neutral Gas Resources? Blacksea - Neutral Gas Resources? How can I stay neutral?

- Pushing influence into Ukraine provides a wonderful way to whittle away at Russian power without overly exposing Turkey’s own vulnerabilities; there is little that Russia can do to exact revenge for any Turkish activities in Ukraine.Turkey will do what it can to orient Ukrainian trade anywhere but east and to empower the Orange forces to keep Russia off balance. In the end, though, Ukraine is more trouble that it is worth to be a real focus of Turkish attention.

- The mineral riches of Central Asia beckon the Turks, and the presence of the Turkic ethnicities of the region — especially Kazakhs, Turkmen and Uzbeks — provides Ankara with a means of entry. The problem, of course, is distance. Both the unruly Caucasus and the Caspian Sea separate the Turks from their Central Asian cousins, and getting oil from the region to Turkey is a logistical nightmare. Still, the Turks would dearly love to make this region the focus of their attention. Not only would it gouge away a large portion of Russian power and place a northern check on Iran, but Ankara also could capitalize on U.S. and European interest to reinforce its own efforts.there must first be infrastructure linking Central Asia to Turkey. The first stage of this effort was the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline that became operational in 2006. The second is a proposed trans-Caspian natural gas pipeline that would divert the region’s natural gas away from Russia and Iran to Turkey and Europe.

- These groups (Balkans — specifically, the Albanians and the Bosnian Muslims,Macedonians,Albanians) have always seen Turkey as a distant benefactor and often serve as a point of mutual interest between Turkey and the European Union.They hold the possibility not only of being a sort of economic colony but also of serving as a point where Europe and Turkey can solidify a relationship that could substitute for formal Turkish membership in the European Union. Or an economical hub...there is no limit here.

- Iraq, Turkey to choose Iraq as its vector of choice in the near- to midterm.Turkey to be engaged politically in Baghdad to limit Kurdish autonomy, to be engaged militarily in the border region to stomp out any insurgencies before they can start and to be engaged economically in the oil fields of Kirkuk to prevent the Kurds from leveraging them into any sort of independence. All Turkish products included electiricity (foods...etc) is to sold,used around the region,the influence is far beyond than anyother think here.

Turkey can not stay neutral, it is not natural movement for a major regional power also. Turkey’s deep involvement is motivated by Ankara’s desire to assume its natural role in the region in accordance with its power and interests.It shouldn't be called as "a return of the Ottoman Empire". Not basic as said.

Turkey is also trying to block Iran’s role in the region increased and the Arabs could not keep up with Iran’s craftiness and Tehran’s skillful political maneuvering.

Turkey noticed how Iran’s early involvement in Iraq had achieved gains for it on the ground and how that had created a central political power that was so firmly linked to Iran. In other words, Iran’s bold venture into Iraqi affairs forced the U.S. and the Arabs to acknowledge its role in the region. Iran continued to follow this approach in Lebanon and Palestine and today we are seeing the results: Hezbollah’s indirect rule over Lebanon by virtue of Iranian backing and a similar situation in the Palestinian territories.

Furthermore, we know nothing about other Iranian schemes in the Gulf region, Yemen or North Africa.

How could we stay neutral? Turkey, which woke up recently. Turkey believes that it is more capable than Iran to deal with the issues of Palestine and Lebanon firstly because it is also a predominantly Sunni country.

Turkey is different than Iran; it is not a fundamentalist state.

- Turkey is a NATO ally and will not cut ties with Israel as well as others.
- It is not a nostalgic movements from Turkey.It is a point to understand where Turkey is...Turkey's smart power is a strategic combination of soft and hard power, but the result is more than a plate of carrots and sticks.

As in all cases of the smart use of power, Turkey must develop win-win scenarios for its regional partners and global actors. Finally, on the global scene, many opportunities await Turkey as a rising regional power. Unlike the Cold War era, which was based on the classical modernist model of either/or power balances, we live in a postmodern world of global power structures. The butterfly effect is felt much more strongly in world affairs today. Postmodern global affairs are centered on the idea of constantly shifting power balances. Top-down distributions of power are challenged on a daily basis by bottom-up approaches and regional realities of power sharing. Let's hope the Turkish policy makers do not miss this historic opportunity.

(sources: Acpr.org.il,Turkishpolicy.com,Stratfor, Al Arabiya, SSF, Savunma Dergisi, Hartford-hwp.com,Ceeol.com,Allacademic.com,Findarticles.com,Meria.idc.ac.il,Energytoday.eu,Todayzaman.com,Axisglobe.com,Turkeycentral.com,Focus-economics.com,En.qantara.de,Meforum.org,Hri.org...etc)




Best regards,
CDTRF

[4X4Driver]

They haven't done anything regarding Central Asia and I can not stress how important that place is. What they have been doing is sucking up to EU.

In regards to Arabs, they are not only talking to them. But clearly taking sides in the process. Again, I can not stress how dangerous that is. Almost all of the countries in the region are huge liabilities for us. There are talks about Iran going nuclear in a couple of months. How do you think Iran will respond if an Israeli bunker buster bomb made in the US lands on its soil? What is the likelihood of Iranian missiles raining on us due to US bases on our soil? I believe it is very high and you are sadly mistaken if you are expecting NATO to come to your aid. They are still waiting for Soviets in Crete... :cantbeli:Another important question is how do you think the collapse of Iran and a possible partition will affect Turkey? If Iraq is an example, you can expect another black hole sucking our much needed billions dry.

At the end, you will probably be posting those embellished articles like the Time magazine article you have been posting on every Korean War related thread. The one that is in fact hiding a gruesome reality.... That is Turkish cannon fodder. Because Turkey will be one of the countries that will have to pay the price with blood.

A likely Armenian bill and an Iran trying to exploit this might well be the boiling point in April. Like Ataturk did before WWII (Balkan Pact and Saadabad Pact), we need to stay neutral and make it clear that we are not interested in anybody's business but our own. We don't need anybody anways (we need to put the agriculture business that we destroyed in the name of EU in shape though).

Trade or talk with anybody you want, just don't pick sides and get entangled into alliances.

^ That's a damn good post deli dumrul...I'd
put my signature under it with no hesitations.

[deli_dumrul]

How could we stay neutral? Turkey, which woke up recently. Turkey believes that it is more capable than Iran to deal with the issues of Palestine and Lebanon firstly because it is also a predominantly Sunni country.


Yeah... Tell that to the Arabs...



Arab countries deter non-Arab interference, press Hamas ceasefire http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/p/english2008/spacer.gif

Non-Arab parties should not interfere in regional issues that do not concern them, the United Arab Emirates' foreign minister said in a meeting of the pro-U.S. camp of Arab nations, in which Iran's ally Hamas was pushed to sign onto a long-term truce with Israel.

Foreign ministers from Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other Arab nations gathered Tuesday in a hastily-thrown together meeting in Abu Dhabi, as Hamas (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/Hamas/) officials met to hold new talks with Egyptian mediators.
"We have to ensure with our unity that unwelcomed, non-Arab parties do not interfere in our affairs in an unneeded manner," the United Arab Emirates foreign minister, Sheik Abdullah bin Zayed Al Nahyan, was quoted by AP as saying in a clear reference to Persian Iran (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/iran/).

His remarks mainly pointed at Iran (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/iran/), could also easily be perceived as a message to Turkey, who repeatedly declared its desire to take the lead in solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Turkish officials were engaged earlier this month in shuttle diplomacy between the exiled leaders of the Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/Hamas/) and Egyptian officials who sought a ceasefire deal.

The gathering represented a more assertive push by Arab governments to push Hamas (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/Hamas/) toward an Egyptian-mediated truce, and away from Iran (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/iran/). It also made starkly clear the split in the Arab world between U.S. allies and a pro-Iranian camp, particularly Syria, which backs Hamas (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/Hamas/) and the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah.

Damascus was not invited to the meeting, nor was Qatar, which has taken an increasingly pro-Hamas turn since Israel’s 3-week offensive in Gaza.

Egypt, Saudi Arabia and allied Arab nations accuse Iran (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/iran/) of using its alliance with Hamas (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/Hamas/) to increase its influence in the region and gain a foothold on Israel’s doorstep. Iran (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/iran/) gives millions of dollars to Hamas (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/Hamas/), helping prop up its control of Gaza, and is believed to supply the militants with weapons - though Tehran denies this.

In another sign of the deepening chasm, Hamas (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/Hamas/) Syria-based top political chief Khaled Mashaal was in Tehran this week, meeting with its supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and hard-line president, thanking them for Iran (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/iran/)’s backing during Israel’s assault against Hamas (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/Hamas/) and seeking Iran (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/iran/)’s help in rebuilding the devastated territory.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/world/10921976.asp?scr=1

Our history with Arabs is riddled with backstabbing... I see no reason wasting my time on their crap...

[spider1]

Well, i think Turkey is one of the last countries that can crtisize Israel after the genocide they did to the armenians.

[Alienoz]

Well, i think Turkey is one of the last countries that can crtisize Israel after the genocide they did to the armenians.

Blame Kurds, it was Kurdish militia that massacred Armenians to grab Armenian properties. Just look at the places where Kurds live. Armenians were forced by Ottoman State to immigrate to Syria and Lebanon. Nothing more.

Same Kurds massacred Shia Turkmens in 1510's to grab land from Ottoman Sultan.

[Draz]

Well ı am the one who started this topic... after a week or so ı see that my starting point is lost... plase read them first at top...

[GiladS]

Gaza war creates rift between Israel and Turkey

By Sabrina Tavernise and Ethan Bronner (http://www.iht.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?query=By Sabrina Tavernise and Ethan Bronner&sort=publicationdate&submit=Search)



ISTANBUL (http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/02/05/mideast/turkey.php?page=1#): The four daily flights to Tel Aviv are still running. The defense contract signed in December has not been scrapped. But since Israel's war in Gaza, something has changed in relations between Israel and Turkey, its closest Muslim ally.

Israel's Arab allies stood behind it in the war, but Turkey, a NATO member whose mediating efforts last year brought Israel into indirect talks with Syria, protested every step of the way in a month of angry remarks capped by the Turkish prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, leaving a symposium at the economic meeting in Davos, Switzerland.

In the week since then, both sides have taken pains to mend fences, with officials in both Israel and Turkey making conciliatory statements.
"Turkey and Israel attribute a special importance to their bilateral relations," the Turkish deputy prime minister, Cemil Cicek, said Monday. "We want to protect our relations with this country."

But privately, both sides acknowledge that some damage has been done, and while the full implications for the relationship are unknown, many analysts who watch it say they sense a shift.

"It's not a business-as-usual relationship anymore," said Cengiz Candar, a columnist for Radikal, a Turkish newspaper. "It's a very uneasy sort of cohabitation in this region now."

Turkey has been unique in the Middle East for its robust relations with Israel. It was the first Muslim country to recognize Israel as a state, and in recent years it has built up $3 billion in annual trade, far more than for any other Middle Eastern country, including a bustling tourist exchange and millions of dollars in defense contracts.

Erdogan encouraged the relationship, taking a trip to Israel in 2005 with a group of Turkish businessmen and becoming the first Turkish prime minister to visit the office of the chief rabbi in Turkey, Isaac Haleva, after a synagogue was bombed in 2003.

But when it comes to Hamas, they disagree. Israel views it as a militant group doctrinally committed to its destruction. Erdogan sees other aspects: It began as a grass-roots Islamic movement and like his own party - Justice and Development, also inspired by Islam - was democratically elected against overwhelming odds.

"They identified with some parts of the Hamas story," said Femi Koru, a columnist for Today's Zaman, a Turkish daily. "They were also outcasts who were not allowed to join national politics. They were also in the margins."

When Israel began its war in Gaza on Dec. 27, Turkish officials were caught by surprise, they said. Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister, had visited Turkey just days before. According to Turkish officials, he had promised a response on talks with Syria, which progressed during the visit, when Erdogan called Syrian officials in Olmert's presence.

Erdogan, furious, castigated Israel for its military campaign, a stance that he continued to press over the course of the war. Turkey argues that it was simply expressing healthy criticism of Israel's campaign, which it opposed - words of warning from a close friend that sincerely believed Israel had gone too far.

"Turkey has simply lost its patience with the status quo in the Mideast," a senior Turkish official said. "Gaza is the bankruptcy of the military solution."

The official added: "Israel is there to stay, and Palestinians are there to stay, and they need to be talking right now."

Israel, for its part, says Olmert was not bound to reveal military details to Erdogan. The two countries will remain allies, it says, maintaining the substantial relations between their militaries and their societies, but Erdogan's reaction means that he can no longer be trusted as a mediator.
"He has burned all the bridges with Jerusalem," said one senior Israeli official. "He won't be seen as an honest broker anymore."

Liberal Turkish columnists criticized Erdogan for what they said was a double standard, raising the issue of killings of civilians by Israel, but failing to mention the thousands of Kurdish citizens killed during military operations in Turkey since the 1980s.

"One would naturally ask Erdogan, who stands up against violence imposed on people in Gaza, what he thinks about Kurds being killed in his own country," Ahmet Altan wrote in Taraf, a liberal newspaper. "Will he own the Kurdish children who became disabled after police bent their arms in street protests, or crushed under armored vehicles?"

Tourism has already taken a hit. Fewer Israelis have traveled to Turkey in recent weeks, according to travel agencies in Israel. Avi Mendelbaum of Unital, a travel agency in Tel Aviv, said that a year ago his agency alone could fill an airplane with 180 tourists going to the Turkish coast. This year, his and four other agencies have joined forces to fill an equivalent flight.

"There is of course a worldwide economic crisis, but we are not seeing a similar falloff in flights to, say, Prague," he said.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/02/05/mideast/turkey.php?page=1
Sebnem Arsu contributed reporting from Istanbul.

[chris450]

an article by the german edition of the financial times

its a google translation so feel free to correct me



Erdogans False accusations

The Turkish head of government is outraged at Davos on the Gaza war, although he himself hard against the Kurds in their own country. Recep Tayyip Erdoğan appearance is embarrassing, unnecessary and implausible.

It has only missed that the Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan with the foot aufstampft, and his show in Davos at the kindergarten level would have been perfect. "I come not to Davos," he has at his disposal melodramatic yet established. Hopefully he keeps it to himself. Because nobody needs such appearances.

It is not just that Erdogan's government liaison for a man unworthy and unacceptable. The content is its sharp criticism of Israel for the war in Gaza inappropriate. It is an intolerable hypocrisy, that Turkey, which until today has not recognised the Turkish genocide of Armenians plays the role of the apostle of morality - Especially the country that has relentlessly pursued home to the Kurdish separatist PKK in the past 25 years and 37,000 actual alledged rebels were killed and not infrequently the whole villages were razed to the ground

Erdogan himself has been a year ago even shied away from his army into northern Iraq to invade in order to pursue Kurdish extremists. Whether in such operations Kurdish civilians were put at risk, was previously unimportant for Erdogan.


Talk to Turkey with the PKK?



The reason for the Turkish ground offensive in February 2008 has been relatively void. Man accused the Kurdish Regional Government in northern Iraq, not against the PKK action. One might not imagine how Ankara would react if the extremists from the Kurdish northern Iraq, launched thousands of small rockets to Turkey - as Hamas from the Gaza Strip against targets in Israel is doing.



By what right actually refused the Turkish government the Kurds a state, albeit the Palestinians deserve one? And if Israel, is talking with the radical Hamas about how Erdogan will understand why he would not talk even with the PKK?

The Palestinian Hamas and the Kurdish PKK are alike in Europe and the U.S. as terrorist organizations. If the Turkish chief of the Hamas government for honest and keeps her "respect" entgegenbringt, then there is no reason why the PKK as an interlocutor reject. And why can not Erdogan also set PKK leader Abdullah Öcalan free?

http://www.ftd.de/meinung/kommentare/:Kommentar-Falscher-Ankl%E4ger-Erdogan/468972.html

[spider1]

Btw Turkey occupys part of cyprus no? and they also have problems with greece no? or it was in the past?

[chris450]

yes 34% of the Republic of Cyprus is under Turkish occupation...in contrast to the dosens of UN security counsil resolutions

is seems ignoring UNSC is bad only if the Israelis do it

[spider1]

yes 34% of the Republic of Cyprus is under Turkish occupation...in contrast to the dosens of UN security counsil resolutions

is seems ignoring UNSC is bad only if the Israelis do it
Well i would be happy if israel wouldnt be part of the UN we dont have what to do there and Turkey also has problems with greece no? i forgot what but i think they have

[4X4Driver]

an article by the german edition of the financial times

its a google translation so feel free to correct me

Funny how the FT changes sides so quick...hell, whatever it takes to get rid of erdogan..woot

[4X4Driver]

Well i would be happy if israel wouldnt be part of the UN we dont have what to do there and Turkey also has problems with greece no? i forgot what but i think they have

Actually, Greece is the one that has probs with Turkey..cuz we occupy "their" land everywhere...rofl

[chris450]

The Jews are hitting back ...hard p-)

article by Steven Plaut , FrontPageMagazine.com



Talking Turkey

By Steven Plaut
FrontPageMagazine.com | Wednesday, February 04, 2009

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan had a temper tantrum at the Davos forum on world economics recently. He foamed at the mouth about Israel's supposedly "massacring innocent women and children" in its recent military operations against the genocidal Hamas terrorists in the Gaza Strip. He walked out in demonstrative contempt when Israel's own leftwing president, Shimon Peres, arose to speak to the delegates. He repeatedly accused Israel of "mass murder" in Gaza. Erdogan ranted at length about how Israel had turned the Gaza Strip into an "open-air prison."


Even more incredibly, as part of his anti-Israel ravings, Erdogan cited two anti-Semitic ex-Israelis as "authorities" for his claims. One "authority" cited by the Turkish Prime Minister is the notorious deranged Holocaust Denier Gilad Atzmon. A saxophone player in the UK with ties to German Neo-Nazis and Holocaust Deniers in other countries, Atzmon is so openly anti-Semitic that even the most bigoted segments of the Bash-Israel Lobby in the UK usually will have nothing to do with him. He swings back and forth between denying altogether that there was any Holocaust of Jews by the Germans and justifying it as something the Jews deserved. He is on record calling for synagogues to be burned down and promotes the anti-Semitic czarist forgery, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Erdogan cited Atzmon as saying, "Israeli barbarity is far beyond even ordinary cruelty."

The other "scholar" cited by Erdogan is the Israel-hating professor Avi Shlaim, who is on the faculty of Oxford University. Shlaim is a pseudo-historian who has made a career out of serving up anti-Israel propaganda, including for the extremist Jew-hating "The Nation" magazine. Shlaim gained notoriety when it turned out he was one of the two "academics" who prostituted themselves for Neo-Nazi Norman Finkelstein. He served as accomplice in the attempts by Finkelstein's supporters to maneuver DePaul University into granting Finkelstein tenure on the basis of his anti-Semitic rants.


At Istanbul's airport thousands of people gathered to greet Erdogan when he returned, waving Turkish and Palestinian flags and chanting "Turkey is proud of you." In response to Erdogan's arrogant rant against Israel's defense operations in Gaza, what can be said? Well, for one, in Turkey, unlike in Israel, Islamists are routinely taken out back and shot. Turkey also invaded the Kurdish areas of northern Iraq, mowing down any Kurds who got in their way, for Kurdish provocations that never came anywhere near those of the Hamas savages, who fired 8000 rockets into Israel from Gaza.

But what else is one to make of this display of temper by the Prime Minister of a country attempting to gain membership in the EU?

I would venture to respond to Erdogan by offering the following summary of the conflict:

The occupation is entirely illegal and is not recognized as legitimate by a single country on earth other than the occupying power. The occupier carried out acts of mass expulsion and ethnic cleansing when the illegal occupation was imposed on its victims. It transferred thousands of its own citizens illegally as settlers into the territories it continues to occupy. Its human rights record in the occupied territories has been atrocious. It continues to defy all world opinion, while imposing military control and suppression on the hapless residents of the illegally occupied territories. Moreover, its human rights record at home is almost as atrocious. It is an apartheid regime in which minorities are discriminated against and openly harassed. It is a militarist entity that came into existence through perpetration of a set of massive crimes against humanity, including ethnic cleansing and mass murder. Indeed, it has often been accused of having perpetrated genocide at the very moment of its creation. There are serious doubts as to whether it even has any moral right to exist as an independent state. Certainly its capital, a city considered holy by many religions, may not rightfully even belong to it at all. That city was seized from its rightful owners using military force, and its religious shrines were looted and transformed to serve the regime.

The above paragraph of course refers to Turkey.

The occupied territories in which ethnic cleansing was perpetrated by the Turkish occupying power refer to northern Cyprus. Turkey illegally invaded Cyprus, an independent state , in 1974, and militarily seized about a third of the island. It then expelled the entire Greek population from those occupied territories. Hundreds of thousands of innocent Greek Cypriots were made homeless refugees due to the military aggression of Turkey. Not a single country on earth recognizes the puppet "republic" Turkey still operates there. To maintain its hold on northern Cyprus, Turkey transferred many thousands of its own citizens to northern Cyprus as illegal settlers.

Northern Cyprus is not even the only set of occupied territories seized and held by modern Turkey. In the year 1939, Turkey simply marched into the Alexandretta area of Syria, then a French protectorate, and annexed it. The ethnic Turks in the area were a minority of the population. The Turkish conquest was based on nothing more than Turkey's desire to take charge of the excellent port facilities there. Syria still considers this area as its own (of course, it also considers Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, and Cyprus also to be its own). Turkey has shown no interest in removing its settlers from Alexandretta. Its control of other areas, such as the area around Kars near the Armenian border or swaths of Thrace, is also based on dubious legitimacy and questionable claims.

Turkey is a semi-democracy in which the military exercises enormous amounts of political power. The respect for human rights in Turkey is notable for its absence. Kurdish, Armenian, and other ethnic minorities have been forcibly Turkified. Religious minorities, such as the Alevi, are persecuted. Censorship is common. Kurdish areas have been subjected to martial rule.

Brutal force has been used against Kurdish separatists and other political groups. Indeed, the operations of the Turkish military against the Kurds make Israel's recent incursion into the Gaza Strip (in Operation "Cast Lead") look like a May Day picnic. Until 2003, it was forbidden to speak Kurdish on the radio or television; the Kurdish alphabet still cannot be used. The state of human rights in Turkey, according to numerous human rights NGOs, continues to be atrocious. Women in Turkey are mistreated; until very recently women students applying to universities had to pass a virginity test. The Turkish military police routinely kill civilians. Journalists have been assassinated.

Open-air prison, indeed.

But today's abuses in Turkey pail into insignificance when placed in the context of the mass murders and ethnic cleansings that accompanied the birth of modern Turkey itself. As the Ottoman Empire collapsed during World War I, ethnic Turks led by Ataturk seized control of most of Anatolia. The infamous mass murders, considered by some to have been genocidal, of ethnic Armenians accompanied the Turkish campaign for independence.

Somewhat less well known in the West is the fact that Turkey's creation was also accompanied by the mass expulsion of almost the entire Greek population of Anatolia. The Greeks had been living in Anatolia for thousands of years before the first Turk even stepped foot in the place. Homer was an Anatolian. Western Anatolia at the beginning of the twentieth century held large areas with Greek ethnic majorities. As the Ottoman Empire fell apart, the large Greek populations declared their own independence from Turkey and their union with Greece. The areas around Smyrna and parts of Thrace, with their large Greek population, were supposed to come under Greek sovereignty in the name of self-determination. Britain's Lloyd George was among those who had made the promise.

Between 1919 and 1922, Greece and Turkey fought a bloody war for Western Anatolia. No one knows how many Greeks were butchered by the Turks during the war. But the Greeks lost and virtually the entire Greek population, many hundreds of thousands of people, were expelled en masse by Turkey from their ancestral homelands. Almost four times as many Greeks were expelled from Anatolia than the number of "Palestinians" who became refugees as a result of their fleeing the territory that became independent Israel in 1948. The Anatolian Greeks would never be granted any "right of return."

Then there is the little matter of Constantinople. The Greek claims to Istanbul are at least a hundred times more legitimate than are any Arab claims to Jerusalem. Constantinople was always a Greek city, conquered by the Turks only in 1453. Its Greek churches were turned into mosques, and some today are Turkish museums. Turkey has never offered to internationalize the city nor turn half of it over to the disenfranchised Greeks.

Meanwhile, an entire section of Athens consists of the Greek families expelled from Smyrna (Izmir). Other residents of Athens are ethnic Greeks expelled from illegally occupied northern Cyprus.

After his tantrum, Prime Minister Erdogan told the press, "My anger over Gaza directed at Israeli government, not Jews." Well, the whole world's disgust with this hypocrisy is directed against Erdogan and not against the Turkish people. After all, the Turkish people deserve better.

http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=492D76A0-3FD9-457C-89FA-626C54F05FAF

[Vorian]

Who is this Steven Plaut that wrote this article?

[4X4Driver]

Who is this Steven Plaut that wrote this article?


I guess he's doing what he is getting paid for... :)


OpinioNet - About "Steven Plaut"
OpinioNet Contributor Bio - Steven Plaut (splaut@econ.haifa.ac.il) Steven E. Plaut, PhD, is professor of business administration at the Graduate School of Business, University of Haifa, Haifa 31905 Israel. He also teaches in Greece, California, and Hungary, and has a Ph.D. from Princeton University in Economics. A Native-born Philadelphian, he has lived in Israel since 1981.

http://www.conservativetruth.org/opinionet/archives2/ccsp/spbio.htm




Biography

Steven Plaut was born in Philadelphia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia) into a Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) family. In the 1930s, his father had been in Hachshara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_youth_movement#Preparation_.28Hachshara.29) training camp set up in Europe for young Jews who intended to make aliyah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah), but the British White Paper of 1939 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939) foreclosed his plans. He managed to escape from Nazi Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany) to the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) and during World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II) served under General Patton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Patton).
Steven Plaut grew up in a religiously Conservative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Judaism) Zionist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism) home. In 1981, the Plaut family (including his parents) immigrated to Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel).
Plaut received his undergraduate degree from Temple University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_University) in Philadelphia, his MA from Hebrew University of Jerusalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_University_of_Jerusalem) and his Ph.D in economics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics) from Princeton University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princeton_University), specializing in international and urban economics and later in finance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finance) and worked at the Federal Reserve Bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Bank). Before his professorship at the Haifa University, he taught at Oberlin College (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberlin_College), the Technion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technion), UC Berkeley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California,_Berkeley), UC Irvine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California,_Irvine), Central European University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_European_University), Tel Aviv University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Aviv_University), University of Nantes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Nantes), and Athens Laboratory for Business Administration.
In his 2002 book The Scout Steven Plaut describes his near-death experience as a kidney cancer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_cancer) patient at an intensive care (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intensive_care) ward (he has recovered from the illness). The historical novel is a series of life stories exchanged between him and his neighbor at the ward, an Israeli bedouin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedouin) scout.

Political views

Steven Plaut has been a persistent and outspoken Israeli critics of the Israeli-Palestinian peace process and of Israel's unilateral withdrawal policy. Ever since the Oslo Accords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords) were signed, he has argued that Palestinian and other Arab leaders would continue to seek the destruction of Israel through violence and terrorism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism). [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Plaut#cite_note-0) He sees the outbreak of the Al-Aqsa Intifada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada) and the campaign of suicide bombing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bombing) as supporting his views [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Plaut#cite_note-1).
In addition, Plaut has strongly attacked Israeli and Jewish leftists such as Michael Lerner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Lerner) and Norman Finkelstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein). He claims that such figures are self-hating Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hating_Jew) and apologists for terrorism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism) who promote the destruction of Israel [3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Plaut#cite_note-2); he calls them "Israel's Academic Fifth Column". Plaut is particularly opposed to what he sees as left-wing extremism in Israeli universities, and is actively involved in Israel Academia Monitor (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Israel_Academia_Monitor&action=edit&redlink=1), a website monitoring such activity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Plaut

[Vorian]

Well he is not a Greek-American so that's fine with me. Teaching in Greece doesn't mean anyhing, he also teaches in Hungary and California.

[4X4Driver]

Teaching in Greece doesn't mean anyhing,


Suure it doesn't .. :)

Why else would he distort the facts like that and tell it one sided? ;)

[spider1]

I only hope that the next government of israel will not let the islamofasict(erdogan) to mediator between israel and someone else like he did between israel and syria it was a ****ing stupid thing to let a pro hamas hizzbollah to mediator

[chris450]

Suure it doesn't .. :)

Why else would he distort the facts like that and tell it one sided? ;)

Gee ...denial,thats a new one

a Jew critising Turkey after the Davos incident? naaah ,someone paying him for sure, that must be it :cantbeli:

[Nickchios]

Who is this Steven Plaut that wrote this article?

A very interesting man, very well educated as i can read in 4X4 reply.

[Kaplanr]

Well educated, yes. Well thought out in his arguments, not really. I should be an easy sell, he failed. Not that I have any use for Erdogan, but while Norman Finklestein is many things, he isn't a neo-nazi, and the Nation may be far-left, but it's not a Jew-hating publication. Writing such as Plauts is as effective and rerality based as Erdogan's ranting and raving. Two sides of the same pot.

[Nickchios]

Thank you Kaplanr for the comment.

Report: Turkey's AKP party posts article denying Holocaust on website

Published: 02.06.09, 15:07 / Israel News (http://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,L-3082,00.html)
At article denying the Holocaust was posted on Turkey's ruling party's website, Ankara's Radikal Gazetesi newspaper reported Friday.
According to the report, the AKP website titled the article "Palestine - The promised land" and said that since some of Adolf Hitler's aides were Jewish, the claims of mass murder of Jews were inconsistent with historical fact. (Ynet)

I think.... they are going.... over the limit...

[Kaplanr]

Always wondered about that Alfred Rosenberg fella.

[Alienoz]

I think.... they are going.... over the limit...

Let them go.

[4X4Driver]

Gee ...denial,thats a new one

a Jew critising Turkey after the Davos incident? naaah ,someone paying him for sure, that must be it :cantbeli:

Naah..the article is too perfect for the Greeks :) Greek influence is clearly visible. No non-Greek individual can distort the facts the way Greeks does without any help from them. Take the distortion about the Cyprus issue (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/Davidcarter/MACEY/macey.html)for example...it's the Greek claims word for word. ;)

Also, the rethoric he's using to attack Atatürk is exaclty the typical Greek way of attacking him...and other false claims of course.


Guys, Jews will do just fine without your "contribution" ;)

[4X4Driver]

Thank you Kaplanr for the comment.

Report: Turkey's AKP party posts article denying Holocaust on website

Published: 02.06.09, 15:07 / Israel News (http://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,L-3082,00.html)
At article denying the Holocaust was posted on Turkey's ruling party's website, Ankara's Radikal Gazetesi newspaper reported Friday.
According to the report, the AKP website titled the article "Palestine - The promised land" and said that since some of Adolf Hitler's aides were Jewish, the claims of mass murder of Jews were inconsistent with historical fact. (Ynet)

I think.... they are going.... over the limit...

Good find niko..I looked for the English version but could not find it.

[Amateur]

And there seems to be no end to the conflict in the near future...


Turkish court opens probe over Israel over Gaza war crimes
World Bulletin / News Desk

A Turkish office of the attorney general got started on Friday of the process of war criminal case against Israeli top officials, opening investigation for the first time.

An Office of the attorney general of city of Ankara opened an investigation into 18 Israeli officials, including Israeli President Shimon Peres, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, the army chief and the head of the military intelligence, Turkish media said.

The Organization of Human Rights and Solidarity for Oppressed People (Mazlumder) Istanbul Branch chairman Ayhan Küçük and other members and volunteers went on Jan 29 to Sultanahmet Court in İstanbul "to ask investigation for Israel's war crimes against humanity" for their involvement in Gaza massacre.

Mazlumder's indictment offered 134 names of the killed Gaza people under 18 age and charged Israeli officials to be responsible for these killings.

The attorney, Vahit Civelek, based the probe on 13th clause of Turkish criminal law.

This will be the first probe in Turkey on crimes genocide commited in another country.

The written application of Mazlumder cited "20 Israelis, whose names and involments in the killings of 160 Gazans are known", to be put on trial and punished for "their crimes against humanity according to the Turkish Criminal Law and International agreements."

Israel also faces more probes, by U.N. and Spanish court, over war crimes and crimes against humanity.

More Investigations

The 47-member UN Human Rights Council, based in Geneva, voted by a large majority on January 12 to set up a probe into grave human rights violations by Israeli forces against Palestinians.

Spain's High Court will launch a war crimes investigation into seven Israelis, including a former defence minister, over a 2002 attack that killed 14 civilians and a Hamas commander in the Gaza Strip, court papers said, ******* reported.

Spanish law allows the prosecution of foreigners for such crimes as genocide, crimes against humanity and torture committed anywhere in the world.

Eight Israeli human rights groups have also called on the Israeli government to investigate given the scale of the casualties, describing the number of dead women and children as terrifying.

Meanwhile Amnesty International, which has investigators in Gaza, said that it had found indisputable evidence that white phosphorus was used by Israeli forces in densely populated areas.

Phosphorus

The United Nations agency responsible for looking after Palestinian refugees has released photographs of what appears to be white phosphorus raining down on a UN school in Beit Lahiya on January 17.

The pictures show terrified Palestinians fleeing from burning lumps of the material, which can burn through skin to the bone. Paramedics sprint away from the incandescent core of the explosion as it engulfs a Red Crescent ambulance, before they return with stretchers to evacuate the victims.

Israel launched on Dec. 27 a massive offensive in Gaza, killing more than 1300 Palestinians, a third of them children, and wounded at least 5300.

Israel targeted hospitals, schools, mosques and government buildings and destroyed infrastructure system in Gaza, lefting Palestinians without electricity, gas and power.

http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=36193

[saladin]

Is it me, or Greeks have more interest In Turkish-Israel relations than average Turk or Israeli forumer here.

[Vorian]

Is it me, or Greeks have more interest In Turkish-Israel relations than average Turk or Israeli forumer here.

Greeks like to talk and there is always more to talk about your neighbours than a country half the world away

[Kaplanr]

I'll buy honorable Spanish intentions when they open an investigation into the Armenian question.

[Alienoz]

I'll buy honorable Spanish intentions when they open an investigation into the Armenian question.

I'll be happy when we kick Islamists out, and start to care about Turkish causes. I blame education system, they put religion into education in order to get rid of Communism, now we have this "child" in our hand.

[chris450]

Is it me, or Greeks have more interest In Turkish-Israel relations than average Turk or Israeli forumer here.

could be..strange things happen sometimes,for instance Turks have more interest in Greek-German submarine quarrels than Greeks and Germans themselves

[saladin]

could be..strange things happen sometimes,for instance Turks have more interest in Greek-German submarine quarrels than Greeks and Germans themselves

Why? We will buy the same boat after all, so we should find out whether it is really a terrible submarine or just a bankrupted customer we are talking about ;)


However, most of the time I became aware of an article when it is bumped at the keyword search "Turkey". So, if you don't want Turks, just don't mention Turkey. How do you find the articles related to Turks anyway? It is clear that you were the first one jumping to wagon without any Greek reference:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3878435&postcount=58

Americans take note, when you talk about thanksgiving dinner, refer to turkey as "that bird our founding fathers got from the indians" if you don't want any Turk in your thread :)

[chris450]

Why? We will buy the same boat after all, so we should find out whether it is really a terrible submarine or just a bankrupted customer we are talking abouttrue ,i guess Greeks should also try to find out if they neighbour an anti-semite ayatolah style middle eastern country or the Israelis complain over nothing p-)

[saladin]

well, I wonder about that question too, so keep us informed then, but wouldn't a new topic more suitable?

[spider1]

If its right that they going to prosecute israeli officials we need to break the ties with them or really to make them very cold and stop selling them weapons(until now i dont know why we sell a muslim country sensitive things like heron they can pass the techonolgy dont forget they have ties with iran and syria)

[4X4Driver]

true ,i guess Greeks should also try to find out if they neighbour an anti-semite ayatolah style middle eastern country or the Israelis complain over nothing p-)

It's good that our ayatollah finally got the attention of the neighbor ... make sure you guys live up to your reputation and veto the mofo's EU membership..:)

In the mean time direct your attention inwards a little and take care of your own affairs.


Greek parliament speaker accuses Israel of 'genocide'
Sun Mar 31,11:16 AM ET

ATHENS, Greece - The speaker of Greece's parliament accused Israel Sunday of committing genocide against the Palestinian people and called for international intervention to protect them.

"This is a barbaric attack on a defenseless people, whose only wish is to
live on the land of their forefathers," Apostolos Kaklamanis said. "The
Greek people, the government, political parties and parliament condemn this genocide taking place in Palestine."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/balkanhr/message/3775

[saladin]

If its right that they going to prosecute israeli officials we need to break the ties with them or really to make them very cold and stop selling them weapons(until now i dont know why we sell a muslim country sensitive things like heron they can pass the techonolgy dont forget they have ties with iran and syria)

Lets clarify what is going on. Some people (I won't classify their mindset but it is sufficient to say that MAZLUMDER is known to have its own agenda) officially submitted a petition to the prosecutor. The prosecutor is required to take all the petitions, regardless of how stupid they are. The next step is to evaluate the merit of the petition (investigation phase), and respond accordingly. It could be accepting the petition or rejecting it on some grounds. I, as a citizen, can claim the coyote torturing the poor roadrunner (although it is usually the other way around), and submit a petition. That doesn't mean the coyote will be prosecuted.

At this time only the petition is submitted, and no official reaction has been decided. Hence, we should wait until we hear more before reaching conclusions.

[Aor]

It's good that our ayatollah finally got the attention of the neighbor ... make sure you guys live up to your reputation and veto the mofo's EU membership..:)

In the mean time direct your attention inwards a little and take care of your own affairs.



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/balkanhr/message/3775

Boy you must be really desperate... Sorry, but European nations do not act on your short-sighted nationalistic expectations or your phobias. The E.U is bound by the criteria set in the accession talks concerning Turkeys memberships application ( that's right you applied for membership). If Turkey implements the political, economic and judiciary reforms that would set it on par in these levels to the minimum already acquired by the rest of the E.Us members it should join. If you see the E.U as a threat to your beloved deep states control and choose to follow on with your undemocratic ,and I dare say anti-western, policies it would be Turkey's fault for failing. A veto from any member state would be unnecessary. In particular Greece is in favour for Turkey's candidacy, contrary to your view of anti- Turkish bias reigning in Greek politicians minds. Why you don't want democratic reforms and a more democratic Turkey beats me... Oh and next time you go fishing for sources for your constant bashing at Greece and its policies I ask you once again to read at least the date of the article. Kaklamanis was speaker of parliament 6 years ago in the PASOK government, that is TWO previous governments ago. What next? something from 20 years ago? You are getting really boring. This is a thread concerning Turkey and its anti Israeli policies, not Greece.

[4X4Driver]

Lets clarify what is going on. Some people (I won't classify their mindset but it is sufficient to say that MAZLUMDER is known to have its own agenda) officially submitted a petition to the prosecutor. The prosecutor is required to take all the petitions, regardless of how stupid they are. The next step is to evaluate the merit of the petition (investigation phase), and respond accordingly. It could be accepting the petition or rejecting it on some grounds. I, as a citizen, can claim the coyote torturing the poor roadrunner (although it is usually the other way around), and submit a petition. That doesn't mean the coyote will be prosecuted.

At this time only the petition is submitted, and no official reaction has been decided. Hence, we should wait until we hear more before reaching conclusions.

No need to explain Saladin..I'm sure he knows the procedure also...

He's got some kind of explanation in his mind already. ;)


i dont know why we sell a muslim country sensitive things