Gazze , Israil , Turkey and rising racism...

[Draz]

I decide to write these after ı saw a thread about threat to Turkish.... (including me!)
Everyone has something to say about jew-muslim / west-east / arab-turk-kurd-persian...... conflicts and they have right to do so..but;

Please do not get a general opinion about a whole country/nation bye a single fools words!

I am a Turkish "yörük" and my best friends include ; a tatar from crimea another from bulgaria , a kurdish (whom ı am his best men) , my girlfriend is an alevi ( a sect of shiite muslims) and her mother is zaza (alevi kurds) yesterday ı went to the funeral of my semi-armenian friend's father and ı am a fan of Trabzonspor football team which respresents the laz's from orthodox blacksea region.......and ı love them all as they are! So ı do not hate kurds , jews or greks!

News&Press talk about rising hate against jews in Turkey...well ı cant find areason to do so...YES..KILLING INNOCENTS IS WRONG AND ISRAIL DOES THAT COMPLETELY BUT CAN YOU BLAME EVERY JEW FOR THIS OR AMERICANS BECAUSE OF BUSH OR VERY SINGLE GERMAN , ITALIAN , JAPAN , FRENCH , BRITISH , RUSSIAN FOR THEIR PAST CRIMES?????

I ask this to jews&arabs: Can you compare the value of lives between a newborn israeli child and arabic child?

[ting]

I decide to write these after ı saw a thread about threat to Turkish.... (including me!)
Everyone has something to say about jew-muslim / west-east / arab-turk-kurd-persian...... conflicts and they have right to do so..but;

Please do not get a general opinion about a whole country/nation bye a single fools words!

I am a Turkish "yörük" and my best friends include ; a tatar from crimea another from bulgaria , a kurdish (whom ı am his best men) , my girlfriend is an alevi ( a sect of shiite muslims) and her mother is zaza (alevi kurds) yesterday ı went to the funeral of my semi-armenian friend's father and ı am a fan of Trabzonspor football team which respresents the laz's from orthodox blacksea region.......and ı love them all as they are! So ı do not hate kurds , jews or greks!

News&Press talk about rising hate against jews in Turkey...well ı cant find areason to do so...YES..KILLING INNOCENTS IS WRONG AND ISRAIL DOES THAT COMPLETELY BUT CAN YOU BLAME EVERY JEW FOR THIS OR AMERICANS BECAUSE OF BUSH OR VERY SINGLE GERMAN , ITALIAN , JAPAN , FRENCH , BRITISH , RUSSIAN FOR THEIR PAST CRIMES?????

I ask this to jews&arabs: Can you compare the value of lives between a newborn israeli child and arabic child?

I hate you personally, deeply and intensly.:fork: Your club is about to take off with Alanzinho from Stabæk.:-(

Otherwise, I agree, all this generalising is annoying.

Take care of little Alan, he will be sorely missed.:-(

[kahn267]

You lost all credibility when you stated that "Israil" kills innocents "completely"..

Just remember ..... Israel being the strongest military in the middle east could flatten Gaza in 2 seconds of every man, woman and child... so maybe take a step back and look into what really happens rather then believing Hamas controlled media coming out of Gaza ---> I'll start you off

http://au.youtube.com/watch/v/JUeSE3WWX_M

[Draz]

Yes that is true...israel can nuke around anytime...and has sovereignty to protect himself..but if so powerfull why dont they use precise-point strikes with missiles&special forces rather than using cluster bombs or phosporus flares???

If you accept other parts of my speech you should have got what ı mean..like the famous quota "great powers bring greater responsibilties"...a nation such as isreal who has great history of sorrow&war should think twice before "flattening" around....

[FunnyX]

You lost all credibility when you stated that "Israil" kills innocents "completely"..


i can't believe that you still can say that,i mean didn't your army kill innocent people?
we all have seen the childs on the ground 7/24 on news.how can you deny that?

[Moledet]

I don't know, I saw about 2000 Turks in a basketball match fighting with the cops trying to get to the court to lynch players of an Israeli team (although half are Americans) while shouting death to Jews and throwing shoes and water bottles at the players. If there are no racist sentiments in Turkey than why does an Israeli team need hundreds of cops to secure its hotel? Why do you need to block streets in order to bring the players to the stadium?
Though, the cops did a great job you can't ignore the antisemitic and anti-Israeli sentiments in today's Turkey.
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0ACoXgKy4E

[4X4Driver]

I don't know, I saw about 2000 Turks in a basketball match fighting with the cops trying to get to the court to lynch players of an Israeli team (although half are Americans) while shouting death to Jews and throwing shoes and water bottles at the players. If there are no racist sentiments in Turkey than why does an Israeli team need hundreds of cops to secure its hotel? Why do you need to block streets in order to bring the players to the stadium?
Though, the cops did a great job you can't ignore the antisemitic and anti-Israeli sentiments in today's Turkey.
Video:
http://www.sport5.co.il/articles.aspx?FolderID=407&docID=52265&lang=he

A human being doesn't need to be "racist" to react the way they did to what you've done in Gaza...quit using the race card like this..it's getting lame and loosing it's meaning.

[FunnyX]

I don't know, I saw about 2000 Turks in a basketball match fighting with the cops trying to get to the court to lynch players of an Israeli team (although half are Americans) while shouting death to Jews and throwing shoes and water bottles at the players. If there are no racist sentiments in Turkey than why does an Israeli team need hundreds of cops to secure its hotel? Why do you need to block streets in order to bring the players to the stadium?
Though, the cops did a great job you can't ignore the antisemitic and anti-Israeli sentiments in today's Turkey.
Video:
http://www.sport5.co.il/articles.aspx?FolderID=407&docID=52265&lang=he

killing childs is not racism,throwing a shoe is racism right? so intertesting...

[Moledet]

A human being doesn't need to be "racist" to react the way they did to what you've done in Gaza...quit using the race card like this..it's getting lame and loosing it's meaning.
Yeah, because a private team that has Israeli players in it is at fault. They were attacked for being Jewish-Israelis, not because any thing else.

[FunnyX]

waited here for a reasonable answer but you still insist on not seeing the truth.
If u kill the terrorist who launched rockets to ur country its OK,but when you kill innocent people like,children,women...when u bomb the schools of UN it becomes racism ;)
no need to answer

[Elemental666]

Some food for thought:



WHAT ISREAEL DOES

ISRAEL KILL MANY BABIES, ISRAEL OCCUPY ARAB LAND. 1000 YEARS ARAB LAND.WHY ISRAEL ON ARAB LAND. GO HOME JEWS THIS HOME OF ARABS. JEWS KILL BABIE !!! BABYT KILLERS LAND GRABBERS GO ISRAEL! BUSH SUPPORT ISRAEL BABIE KILLER ??? IRAN DEFEND AGAINST JEWISH AGGENSION LIKE USA, WE SUPPORT USA, good friend !!!! DEFEND AGAINS TISRAEL AGGRESION !!!

ISRAEL CRIMINALS DROP BOMB SCHOOLS AND MILK FACTORY !!! MANY CHILDREN DEAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ISRAEL KILL MANY TEACHERS AND BABIES ISRAEL KILLING CIVIL WHY KILLING ISRAEL USEING NAPALM ON CIVIL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/v/WIf7_ZDGSHQ

Keep it civil. Opinions only.

[Try&die]

Yeah, because a private team that has Israeli players in it is at fault. They were attacked for being Jewish-Israelis, not because any thing else.

And all those children and woman died, just because they are Palestinian?

[Moledet]

And all those children and woman died, just because they are Palestinian?
You are digging yourself deeper with these "comebacks", they don't work on people that think rationally like most of this forum. They are great as populism for an uneducated mob but not here.

So far, your response is doing nothing but proving my point.

[Climber]

A human being doesn't need to be "racist" to react the way they did to what you've done in Gaza...quit using the race card like this..it's getting lame and loosing it's meaning.

First, what we've done in Gaza was to protect our people from terrorist.

People insist in judging us but they aren't ready to take just 5 minutes to think what they would do in similar situations.

It is what my grandfather used to call Living room ethics.

And since I don't live in Israel, i can give you some perspective. A guy in Buenos Aires, in the street see a Haredi Jew and ask him shouting and violently, why you do that to little children's in Gaza?.

The Jew, who is Argentine, and is not Israeli, didn't do anything, he is an Argentine Jew, He is not Israeli. Why is he accountable for anything Israel does?

That's racism. pure 100% old racism.

[Try&die]

You are digging yourself deeper with these "comebacks", they don't work on people that think rationally like most of this forum. They are great as populism for an uneducated mob but not here.

So far, your response is doing nothing but proving my point.

I think you have got no answer to this and you are talking crap to get on it..:)

[Climber]

waited here for a reasonable answer but you still insist on not seeing the truth.
If u kill the terrorist who launched rockets to ur country its OK,but when you kill innocent people like,children,women...when u bomb the schools of UN it becomes racism ;)
no need to answer

Not, is not racism, it is war. Like when Turkey goes after the Kurds. Or that's racism?

[Try&die]

Not, is not racism, it is war. Like when Turkey goes after the Kurds. Or that's racism?

We don't go after Kurds,we go after PKK-terrorist. Our forces know the sensitivity of killing innocent people in the world, so they aware of it. Don't mix up things pls.

[Climber]

And all those children and woman died, just because they are Palestinian?

What's the question?

[FunnyX]

You are digging yourself deeper with these "comebacks", they don't work on people that think rationally like most of this forum. They are great as populism for an uneducated mob but not here.

So far, your response is doing nothing but proving my point.

if it was possible throwing a shoe to u just to make you see the truth,i wouldn't think twice trust me ;) :bash:

[Elemental666]

Blah blah blah blah.

You guys are the world champions of giving mindless criticism that is based entirely on emotions.

Whoever has more dead kids and the pictures to prove it = Victim. Simplistic, comfortable way of thinking.

Your army could have done better? No. So instead of posting nonsense, how about giving us some helpful tips on how to deal with Hamas with no civilian casualties.

Go:

[Climber]

We don't go after Kurds,we go after PKK-terrorist. Our forces know the sensitivity of killing innocent people in the world, so they aware of it. Don't mix up things pls.

I don't mix anything.

Turkey have a lot of skeletons on the placard. I would not judge anybody before looking at my past history, or not so past history.

When Turkey goes after PKK - terrorist there are not civilian casualties among Kurds?
What's the difference of PKK - Terrorist and Hamas? please enlighten me

[IDF_TANKER]

Somebody close this idiotic thread already...

[Try&die]

I don't mix anything.

Turkey have a lot of skeletons on the placard. I would not judge anybody before looking at my past history, or not so past history.

Are you suggesting something? If you are, be a men and say it.

[FunnyX]

Not, is not racism, it is war. Like when Turkey goes after the Kurds. Or that's racism?

if our army had killed innocent people (who lives in the caves,i mean they are terrorists),u would ve seen "look turkish army killes innocents" 7/24 on TV ;)

[4X4Driver]

somebody close this idiotic thread already...


+1........

[Moledet]

I think you have got no answer to this and you are talking crap to get on it..:)
I think I am just simply tired of answering the same thing over and over again to people that don't want to listen and will just throw another populist comment back at me. It's extremely easy to throw all kind of remarks around like, "Jews are at fault of the economic crisis", "Jews make matzot of babies blood", etc... but for some reason you won't accept the answer "no, they don't" but you will like a proof and a reliable one and that is tiresome and I have no intention to do it.
If you come up with a serious document that is backed by a number of independent sources and then rise your claim I might answer it, otherwise there's no point that I will go through all the hard work for searching and proving things while you throw populist comments around.

[4X4Driver]

When Turkey goes after PKK - terrorist there are not civilian casualties among Kurds?


Nope..we go after the ones placed in the mountains...not after the ones amongst the towns in the Eastern Turkey..or in Erbil.

[FunnyX]

I think I am just simply tired of answering the same thing over and over again to people that don't want to listen and will just throw another populist comment back at me. It's extremely easy to throw all kind of remarks around like, "Jews are at fault of the economic crisis", "Jews make matzot of babies blood", etc... but for some reason you won't accept the answer "no, they don't" but you will like a proof and a reliable one and that is tiresome and I have no intention to do it.
If you come up with a serious document that is backed by a number of independent sources and then rise your claim I might answer it, otherwise there's no point that I will go through all the hard work for searching and proving things while you throw populist comments around.

do i need to come back with a document? i think u dont watch TV
c'mon i've seen babies on the ground on the most watched news channels like BBC,France24,Aljezaara,CNN

anyways iwont answer anymore

[Climber]

Are you suggesting something? If you are, be a men and say it.

I won't be banned because of you, dude.

And you know perfectly about what I am talking about.


if our army had killed innocent people (who lives in the caves,i mean they are terrorists),u would ve seen "look turkish army killes innocents" 7/24 on TV ;)

I've seen it for awhile. but you are Turks, not Jewish. Hence, "people" around the world is not intersend on what Turkey does 7/24 in TV. It is interesed in what Jewish people does.

Why?

People is obsesive and racist.

[Try&die]

I think I am just simply tired of answering the same thing over and over again to people that don't want to listen and will just throw another populist comment back at me. It's extremely easy to throw all kind of remarks around like, "Jews are at fault of the economic crisis", "Jews make matzot of babies blood", etc... but for some reason you won't accept the answer "no, they don't" but you will like a proof and a reliable one and that is tiresome and I have no intention to do it.
If you come up with a serious document that is backed by a number of independent sources and then rise your claim I might answer it, otherwise there's no point that I will go through all the hard work for searching and proving things while you throw populist comments around.

I think you get me wrong. First of all, I have nothing against Jews if you are suggesting that. More ever, I have quite much Jewish friends and we get along very good. Second: I don't say Israel did a bad job. You responded the attacks by a invasion , ok I understand. But you also are suggesting that you have done nothing wrong and then start 'attacking' other countries of being critical and pro-Hamas. I only say you have killed innocent people, it's true.. and not more. Understand me?

[Elemental666]

So instead of posting nonsense, how about giving us some helpful tips on how to deal with Hamas with no civilian casualties.

Go:

Do it.

....................

[kahn267]

i can't believe that you still can say that,i mean didn't your army kill innocent people?
we all have seen the childs on the ground 7/24 on news.how can you deny that?

yes there are innocents killed - im not denying that
but you go and say that Israel solely attacks hamas without any regard for civilians. I think you would also be hypocritical to say that Turkey purely attacks Kurdish rebels because if im not mistaken theres plenty of history of innocent Kurds being killed also

[4X4Driver]

People is obsesive and racist.

Lame excuse..and people getting really sick of hearing it already.

[Try&die]

I won't be banned because of you, dude.

And you know perfectly about what I am talking about.



Hmmm ok. I understand what you are saying. Well since there is no evidence and it was a time of war ( A WORLD WAR OF SEVERAL YEARS ) what you are saying is not correct.

[Climber]

Nope..we go after the ones placed in the mountains...not after the ones amongst the towns in the Eastern Turkey..or in Erbil.

Kurds aren't in agreement with you, and the tactical situation and the density of the population is hardly the same.

If the Kurds started to qassam Istambul from a Kurd city, what would you do?

[Climber]

Hmmm ok. I understand what you are saying. Well since there is no evidence and it was a time of war ( A WORLD WAR OF SEVERAL YEARS ) what you are saying is not correct.

There is a lot of evidence. Maybe in Turkey there isn't.

And the Shoa was also during a time of war ( A WORLD WAR OF SEVERAL YEARS ) so that's hardly an argument.

[kahn267]

if our army had killed innocent people (who lives in the caves,i mean they are terrorists),u would ve seen "look turkish army killes innocents" 7/24 on TV ;)

Thats because Hamas abuses their own civilians' safety to try and legitimize their actions against Israel

You think that Turkey just magically performs its air strikes against Kurdish rebels living in Kurdish areas where there are civilians also and they somehow perfectly hit the rebels only?

put a search in google : Turkey killing Kurdish civilians

theres plenty of information that i came across

[Try&die]

Kurds aren't in agreement with you, and the tactical situation and the density of the population is hardly the same.

If the Kurds started to qassam Istambul from a Kurd city, what would you do?

If if if. It is not gonna happen.

But if you mean PKK, they have planted bombs several times killing innocent people ( including pregnant woman.. ). But we didn't go to Kurdish city and killed people, we hunted PKK in the mountains.

[IDF_TANKER]

Do it.

....................

X2

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg211/froimv/Misc/nike_logo.jpg

[Try&die]

There is a lot of evidence. Maybe in Turkey there isn't.

And the Shoa was also during a time of war ( A WORLD WAR OF SEVERAL YEARS ) so that's hardly an argument.

Besides photo's of dead people and stories, there is no evidence.

And with several years, I refere to the 3 weeks of war against Hamas recently.

[4X4Driver]

Kurds aren't in agreement with you, and the tactical situation and the density of the population is hardly the same.

Its' a fact that most of the pkk is in the Esatern towns when they're not in the mountains..you don't see us flattening or eastern towns like you did to Gaza..do you?


If the Kurds started to qassam Istambul from a Kurd city, what would you do?

There are more kurds living in Istanbul than in any major kurdish dominated tow in the east...and pkk exploded many bombs in the populated areas in Istanbul.

[4X4Driver]

There is a lot of evidence. Maybe in Turkey there isn't.

No there isn't..only allegations of ppl who lost the war and politicians who supports to them for their own gains as polticians. No court rule ever on the allegations..they won't even dare to take us to court. (on..also some so alled historians on the payroll of certain loobies)

[kahn267]

If if if. It is not gonna happen.

But if you mean PKK, they have planted bombs several times killing innocent people ( including pregnant woman.. ). But we didn't go to Kurdish city and killed people, we hunted PKK in the mountains.


Well hopefully next time Israel will drop leaflets not warning civilians to remove themselves from areas that are Hamas targets but rather drop leaflets requesting Hamas terrorists to clearly identify themselves and ask Jordan if they can have access to their mountains so that the IAF wont harm the civilians

Your logic is brilliant

[Climber]

If if if. It is not gonna happen.

But if you mean PKK, they have planted bombs several times killing innocent people ( including pregnant woman.. ). But we didn't go to Kurdish city and killed people, we hunted PKK in the mountains.

What do you think a Judge does for a living? or a Jury?


Other than be a interpreter of the law and bring justice, they, consciently or unconsciously, they work on those IF's.

They try to put themselves in the place of the other. And you are beign a Judge or Jury here.

When Hamas ( and Fatah or Jihad Islamic, or others) sent suicide bombers to kill pregnant women and kids in our cities, we didn't hunted them into the mountains, first because there are no mountains in Gaza, second because those terrorist put themselves between civilians, and third, we did selective killings. And guess what, the 7/24 TV of the world judged us for that.

[FunnyX]

If if if. It is not gonna happen.

But if you mean PKK, they have planted bombs several times killing innocent people ( including pregnant woman.. ). But we didn't go to Kurdish city and killed people, we hunted PKK in the mountains.
+1 bro

they think when our army attacks kurds they fly over a city and drop bombs..
not like that they are hunting PKK members in camps on mountains,or simply drop bombs over them
there are no one else living except those kurdish terrorists...
we are fighting with the terrorist not kurdish people

[Try&die]

Well hopefully next time Israel will drop leaflets not warning civilians to remove themselves from areas that are Hamas targets but rather drop leaflets requesting Hamas terrorists to clearly identify themselves and ask Jordan if they can have access to their mountains so that the IAF wont harm the civilians

Your logic is brilliant

I don't say your situation is the same as ours, I know yours is difficult. So this reply is based on wrong things.

[RoyB]

If if if. It is not gonna happen.

But if you mean PKK, they have planted bombs several times killing innocent people ( including pregnant woman.. ). But we didn't go to Kurdish city and killed people, we hunted PKK in the mountains.
We checked the mountains, the terrorists weren't there.:cantbeli:

[Try&die]

What do you think a Judge does for a living? or a Jury?


Other than be a interpreter of the law and bring justice, they, consciently or unconsciously, they work on those IF's.

They try to put themselves in the place of the other. And you are beign a Judge or Jury here.

When Hamas ( and Fatah or Jihad Islamic, or others) sent suicide bombers to kill pregnant women and kids in our cities, we didn't hunted them into the mountains, first because there are no mountains in Gaza, second because those terrorist put themselves between civilians, and third, we did selective killings. And guess what, the 7/24 TV of the world judged us for that.

Well first of all , I didn't suggest you have mountains. I meant the mountains in east-Turkey and Iraq. And second: Yes I act like a Jury because I am neither a Israeli or a Palestinian(or Hamas terrorist ) so I watch the independend news and base my issues on that. Got it?

[Silent Reader]

Lets just agree that all your countries are evil and that propaganda is used to a great extend which also produces racism on all sites by demonizing the enemy. this always has been the case and i guess this always will be the case. civilian casualties are inevitable in a densly populated area but one also has to ask if a precision guided weapon on a school complex used by terrorists is that much better than say special forces - sure this might be riskier but this way they could save the lifes of a lot of civilians. so their might be reason for criticism... though what makes it racist are the stereotypes used to describe and explain the situation... again - on all sites.

[4X4Driver]

You think that Turkey just magically performs its air strikes against Kurdish rebels living in Kurdish areas where there are civilians also and they somehow perfectly hit the rebels only?



That never happened. We never did what you've done in Gaza to any kurdish populated town in Turkey or outside of Turkey.

[FunnyX]

Thats because Hamas abuses their own civilians' safety to try and legitimize their actions against Israel

You think that Turkey just magically performs its air strikes against Kurdish rebels living in Kurdish areas where there are civilians also and they somehow perfectly hit the rebels only?

put a search in google : Turkey killing Kurdish civilians

theres plenty of information that i came across

why do innocent people live in a cave on a mountain with a kalashnikov?
we ve never performed an air strike to a city as u said.
look at the pkk camps on map u can find em on google

[Try&die]

This will be my last comment reply on this thread.

-I have made things clear in my replies before. Read them.
If you still have problems/issues with it. PM me.

my regards,

[RoyB]

Yeah, when did Israel attacked a school? even when terrorist were firing from it?
And you must be joking for the SF part.

[4X4Driver]

we ve never performed an air strike to a city as u said.


Right...Even though when we know there are a lot of pkk in the towns/cities.

[Elemental666]

This will be my last comment reply on this thread.

-I have made things clear in my replies before. Read them.
If you still have problems/issues with it. PM me.

my regards,

WHAT? So you DON'T have any solutions for us, just pointless ramblings?

I'm shocked etc. These threads are more predictable than... Something that is very predictable. I don't have examples. Make something up.

[Climber]

No there isn't..only allegations of ppl who lost the war and politicians who supports to them for their own gains as polticians. No court rule ever on the allegations..they won't even dare to take us to court. (on..also some so alled historians on the payroll of certain loobies)

Yes they are, there's a lot of that people living in Argentine, and some of them have the scars in their bodies and they remember the atrocities. You can deny it, but it doesn't make a difference.

[4X4Driver]

Yes they are, there's a lot of that people living in Argentine, and some of them have the scars in their bodies and they remember the atrocities. You can deny it, but it doesn't make a difference.

Yeah..yeah..loosing side of a war does usually claim for such things..but they never try to prove such thing in front of a neutral court..ever wonder why??:roll:

Because buying out politicians and "historians" is a lot easier ;)

[chris450]

That never happened. We never did what you've done in Gaza to any kurdish populated town in Turkey or outside of Turkey.


4.000 villages burnt to the ground and thousand dead in the SE ,ring any bells? about half a million Kurds fled the SE from 1975 to 1995 and moved to major cities because of the scortched earth policy ..You can read about "the systematic campaing of the turkish security forces" in the New York times

Kurds Are Finally Heard: Turkey Burned Our Villages
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C00E7D71431F937A15753C1A9659C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

ranting on Gaza is like the pot calling the kettle black ..but i'm sure the EU is to blame for this one too

[4X4Driver]

4.000 villages burnt to the ground and thousand dead in the SE ,ring any bells? about half a million Kurds fled the SE from 1975 to 1995 because of the scortched earth policy ..You can read about it in the New York times

Kurds Are Finally Heard: Turkey Burned Our Villages
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C00E7D71431F937A15753C1A9659C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

ranting on Gaza is like the pot calling the kettle black

There you are..I was worried when the Greek friends were going to tune in..so you're on the side of Israelis now.. :)

Yep..so called "villages" that were actually pkk camps...

[kahn267]

That never happened. We never did what you've done in Gaza to any kurdish populated town in Turkey or outside of Turkey.


Which is?
raiding and arresting terrorists?

[4X4Driver]

Which is?
raiding and arresting terrorists?

Raiding the way it's done to Gaza...

[chris450]

Yep..so called "villages" that were actually pkk camps...

so you did burn them? coz listen to this ,its quite strange :


Two years ago, a Turkish parliamentary commission concluded that more than 3,000 villages had been destroyed and some 378,000 people displaced. But the commission reached no conclusions about who had set the villages afire.http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C00E7D71431F937A15753C1A9659C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

and 4X4 ,yes im with the Israelis on this one, you dont have the moral high ground so dont go pointing any fingers ,it backfires

[Try&die]

Sorry I broke my promise, but this thread is getting offtopic. Again because our Greek friends bring some other subjects to the thread. Mods please close it or do something.

[chris450]

oh now its off topic...and whats on topic ,bashing Israel? lolz

anyway contemplate on what you've done in the SE before ranting about Gaza..thats the message i wanted to get across ,i'll let you continue your rants now

[Climber]

Lame excuse..and people getting really sick of hearing it already.

Lame excuse? why people is always looking at what Israel does? why the judgment is over what we do, but not what others do?

When is Turkey, you just use wonder weapons that target PKK.

Yeah right....


Its' a fact that most of the pkk is in the Esatern towns when they're not in the mountains..you don't see us flattening or eastern towns like you did to Gaza..do you?



There are more kurds living in Istanbul than in any major kurdish dominated tow in the east...and pkk exploded many bombs in the populated areas in Istanbul.

Damn, are you sure that you understand the situation here? do you? because for what you post, I am sure you aren't.

There is a geographical difference, in Gaza, people is actually packed together,

There is no civilian area, there is no military area, it's all the same.


+1 bro

they think when our army attacks kurds they fly over a city and drop bombs..
not like that they are hunting PKK members in camps on mountains,or simply drop bombs over them
there are no one else living except those kurdish terrorists...
we are fighting with the terrorist not kurdish people

We would like to do the same, but those cowards attack from their own backyards with their families at home.


Well first of all , I didn't suggest you have mountains. I meant the mountains in east-Turkey and Iraq. And second: Yes I act like a Jury because I am neither a Israeli or a Palestinian(or Hamas terrorist ) so I watch the independend news and base my issues on that. Got it?

I got it, but I think you don't. try again to understand what I posted. I didn't say you shouldn't judge, I said that IF's are important on judgment, a thing you despised. Just try to envision our situation and try to understand before judging.

BTW, there aren't any independent news, all of them make profit and have ideologyp-)


Lets just agree that all your countries are evil and that propaganda is used to a great extend which also produces racism on all sites by demonizing the enemy. this always has been the case and i guess this always will be the case. civilian casualties are inevitable in a densly populated area but one also has to ask if a precision guided weapon on a school complex used by terrorists is that much better than say special forces - sure this might be riskier but this way they could save the lifes of a lot of civilians. so their might be reason for criticism... though what makes it racist are the stereotypes used to describe and explain the situation... again - on all sites.

I don't agree with that, my country is not evil......or maybe you wanted to say OUR instead of YOUR?


That never happened. We never did what you've done in Gaza to any kurdish populated town in Turkey or outside of Turkey.

Because it's a different geographical situation, but Turkey did kill Kurds without regard of the civilian condition.

One of the reasons the EU is holding you out.


Yeah..yeah..loosing side of a war does usually claim for such things..but they never try to prove such thing in front of a neutral court..ever wonder why??:roll:

Because buying out politicians and "historians" is a lot easier ;)

Believe what you want, I know what Turkish people believe and is taught. I talked with survivors, and they didn't lied to me. The Balkans were a walk in the park in comparison.

[4X4Driver]

so you did burn them? coz listen to this ,its quite strange :

Yeah..according to the pkk that was based on those locations... just like if Hamas would be saying that in the same paper.


and 4X4 ,yes im with the Israelis on this one, you dont have the moral high ground so dont go pointing any fingers ,it backfires

It's understandable my Greek friend..no worries..everyone knows your motto :)

[kahn267]

Raiding the way it's done to Gaza...

This is from:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/aug2000/turk-a30.shtml


On August 18 the Iraqi Communist Party (ICP) reported an air attack on the villages of Lulan and Khazina in the north east of the province Erbil. According to this report a total of 12 bombs were dropped with 41 civilians, mainly women and children, killed and 57 wounded.

Umm that kind of raiding?

the only difference is there isnt any media out in the areas where these Kurdish civilians are dying

but then again maybe Turkey has some really sophisticated missiles that can be launched that are somehow more sophisticated and cannot kill civilians ...... even though from what I recall Turkey gets alot of its weapons and training from Israel right?

Why doesnt Turkey send in its military to help Israel in Gaza then? We'll just subtract the bill from the $1billion that Turkey purchased in Israeli weaponry and equipment last year alone.

[Try&die]

[quote=Climber;3878455]



I got it, but I think you don't. try again to understand what I posted. I didn't say you shouldn't judge, I said that IF's are important on judgment, a thing you despised. Just try to envision our situation and try to understand before judging.

quote]

It appears that you don't got it afterall. I said I understand Israel for protecting their civilians and border by attacking Gaza. But I like the innocent killing, even if it is not on porpuse.

By independend, I meant neither Israeli news or Palestinian( Arab ) news. I watch Europe and America news and officialy they are independend. ( mostly I watch state channels, which don't have advertising.)

[FunnyX]

the camps of pkk are shown as village by kurdish channels on tv after bomb strikes held by turkish army and you buy it,right?
i've seen a terrorist(woman) on cnn taking about women rights with a weapon on her arm..
its not done by perfidiously killing soldiers...

[Try&die]

oh now its off topic...and whats on topic ,bashing Israel? lolz

anyway contemplate on what you've done in the SE before ranting about Gaza..thats the message i wanted to get across ,i'll let you continue your rants now


I don't bash Israel about anything. I just made my opinion clear. But you are trying to creat some friction between me and Israeli members here by suggesting I do bash Israel.. Pls stop with this nonsence Chris.

[Climber]

[quote=Climber;3878455]



I got it, but I think you don't. try again to understand what I posted. I didn't say you shouldn't judge, I said that IF's are important on judgment, a thing you despised. Just try to envision our situation and try to understand before judging.



It appears that you don't got it afterall. I said I understand Israel for protecting their civilians and border by attacking Gaza. But I like the innocent killing, even if it is not on porpuse.

By independend, I meant neither Israeli news or Palestinian( Arab ) news. I watch Europe and America news and officialy they are independend. ( mostly I watch state channels, which don't have advertising.)

I don't believe in Independant news, corporations have interest then they aren independent.

But back on topic, I said that you still disregard the IF's.

I also don't like the killing of civilians, it makes me sick.

But how can be do it instead? please tell me.


the camps of pkk are shown as village by kurdish channels on tv after bomb strikes held by turkish army and you buy it,right?
i've seen a terrorist(woman) on cnn taking about women rights with a weapon on her arm..
its not done by perfidiously killing soldiers...

I can say exactly the same about Gaza, exactly.....


I don't bash Israel about anything. I just made my opinion clear. But you are trying to creat some friction between me and Israeli members here by suggesting I do bash Israel.. Pls stop with this nonsence Chris.
It's alright.

[4X4Driver]

Lame excuse? why people is always looking at what Israel does? why the judgment is over what we do, but not what others do?

When is Turkey, you just use wonder weapons that target PKK.

Yeah right....

We don't have the world support that you have when we're fighting pkk terrorism. We're doing best we can under the circumstances.



Damn, are you sure that you understand the situation here? do you? because for what you post, I am sure you aren't.

There is a geographical difference, in Gaza, people is actually packed together,
There is no civilian area, there is no military area, it's all the same.

There are towns/cities in same situation in the S. Esatern Turkey


Because it's a different geographical situation, but Turkey did kill Kurds without regard of the civilian condition.

It must have happened..but I remind you that the pkk don't distinguish itself from the civillians like Hamas does with some kind of uniform.


One of the reasons the EU is holding you out.

It's no news that the EU is pkk friendly..all of pkk's financial sources based there...so, we don't need to join the EU




Believe what you want, I know what Turkish people believe and is taught. I talked with survivors, and they didn't lied to me. The Balkans were a walk in the park in comparison.

...and I've listen to ppl who has been the victims on the Turkish side...incl. my family members..they don't lie either.

[Try&die]

I don't believe in Independant news, corporations have interest then they aren independent.

But back on topic, I said that you still disregard the IF's.

I also don't like the killing of civilians, it makes me sick.

But how can be do it instead? please tell me.



Well. If you ask me, I would say send some Special Force Units in Gaza. They are good trained I know. To say: why risc their lives for a bunch of terrorists? Ok. I understand it, but why they became Special Force soldiers? To take out any kind of enemy for Israel, if it will take their life so be it. The main point is that they protect Israeli civilians.

But remember: I am not a general or something and have not real life experience so I can think easy on this, but this would be my idea.

[4X4Driver]

This is from:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/aug2000/turk-a30.shtml



Umm that kind of raiding?

Iraqi communist party is kurdish. Pkk is communist..get it ? ;) You believe everything hamas puts out on the net??




Why doesnt Turkey send in its military to help Israel in Gaza then? We'll just subtract the bill from the $1billion that Turkey purchased in Israeli weaponry and equipment last year alone.

This Islamic gov't we have now would never do that. When we voiced criticism to Erdogan here, you guys blame the whole nation for his stupidity.

[GeneralDisarray]

Well. If you ask me, I would say send some Special Force Units in Gaza. They are good trained I know. To say: why risc their lives for a bunch of terrorists? Ok. I understand it, but why they became Special Force soldiers? To take out any kind of enemy for Israel, if it will take their life so be it. The main point is that they protect Israeli civilians.

But remember: I am not a general or something and have not real life experience so I can think easy on this, but this would be my idea.

I wasn't going to chime in.. but holy crap man. I'm sorry, but how can anyone take you seriously after this post?

[Try&die]

Why doesnt Turkey send in its military to help Israel in Gaza then? We'll just subtract the bill from the $1billion that Turkey purchased in Israeli weaponry and equipment last year alone.

Well, Israel didn't asked the Turkish army for help? And we offered peacekeeping forces if that is what you mean.

And we pay for our stuff? You make it sound like we get everything for free..

[Try&die]

I wasn't going to chime in.. but holy crap man. I'm sorry, but how can anyone take you seriously after this post?

Hmmm, tell me why wouldn't they.

[FunnyX]

Well. If you ask me, I would say send some Special Force Units in Gaza. They are good trained I know. To say: why risc their lives for a bunch of terrorists? Ok. I understand it, but why they became Special Force soldiers? To take out any kind of enemy for Israel, if it will take their life so be it. The main point is that they protect Israeli civilians.

But remember: I am not a general or something and have not real life experience so I can think easy on this, but this would be my idea.

it can be done by letting them develop,opening borders,helping on education etc...(but it would take so long)
the people are uneducated there thats why they are supporting terrorists coz they ve nothing to do

[kahn267]

You believe everything hamas puts out on the net??



No but you certainly do, considering that all cameramen in Gaza were actually Palestinians, which obviously living in Gaza support Hamas or can only release information once passed through Hamas censorship.
Why didnt we see any Hamas gunmen killed?

Do I even need to post the quote from the article the other day quoting a doctor in Gaza who didnt want to be identified for fear of his life, adding that the majority of deaths were of males 17-23 that Hamas "sent to the slaughter"

[Climber]

We don't have the world support that you have when we're fightingpkkterrorism. We're doing best we can under the circumstances.

We also do the same, and about world support, we are judged by double standards all the time, whitpeople who only want to bepolitically correct.

i don't live in Israel currently and I have to listen that Bull all the time





There are towns/cities in same situation in the S.Esatern TurkeyI think that you don't fully understand
gaza situation, geographically and demographically speaking. Because it is totally different.





It must have happened..but I remind you that the pkk don't distinguish itself from thecivillians like Hamas does with some kind of uniform.Did you see the reports of Hamas not using uniform? it is all the same, they are terrorist, not fighters, not an army.




It's no news that the EU ispkk friendsl..all ofpkk's financial sources based there...so, we don't need to join the EU I know Turks here thatdiffer on your opinion.






...and I've listen toppl who has been the victims on the Turkish side...incl. my family members..they don't lie either.I am sorry to hear that.Being in that kind ofsituation is terrible, i know because of my own family history.

[timetraveller]

No but you certainly do, considering that all cameramen in Gaza were actually Palestinians, which obviously living in Gaza support Hamas or can only release information once passed through Hamas censorship.
Why didnt we see any Hamas gunmen killed?

Do I even need to post the quote from the article the other day quoting a doctor in Gaza who didnt want to be identified for fear of his life, adding that the majority of deaths were of males 17-23 that Hamas "sent to the slaughter"


,, The majority of the worlds media was barred from entering Gaza only allowed far as the border , so like you and many others all we had to rely on was the Ramattan live link when yourself and many other watched and what ever surfaced on the various news sites but still Press freedom within Gaza was heavily restricted comparing the Press freedom given to those during the 1st Gulf war .. The Visual/info aspect is massive ,
And only once was any media allowed to enter that happend during the 1st 3hr ceasefire ,

I never seen any footage of any hamas nor did you the closest we all got was infra read camerafootage from overflying aircraft .

Nothing filmed on the ground close up ..

[4X4Driver]

No but you certainly do, considering that all cameramen in Gaza were actually Palestinians, which obviously living in Gaza support Hamas or can only release information once passed through Hamas censorship.


Can you be so naive to think that we didn't have our own reporters connecting live from Gaza during the conflict. ??

You shouldn't belive everthing some ppl tells you (meaning that the only news sources are the pro hamas ones)

[4X4Driver]

I think that you don't fully understand
gaza situation, geographically and demographically speaking. Because it is totally different.

I do..and I say we have similar places...only that is enough for us to restaring ourselves doing the same thing.



Did you see the reports of Hamas not using uniform? it is all the same, they are terrorist, not fighters, not an army.

Whatever it's called..I alwasys see hamas in some kind of clothing that distinguishes from the daily civillian clothes...


I know Turks here thatdiffer on your opinion.

Every one has a right to have an opinion..I'm sure there are Israelis differ in opinion from yours too.





I am sorry to hear that.Being in that kind ofsituation is terrible, i know because of my own family history.

I'm sorry to hear that too.

[Moledet]

Can you be so naive to think that we didn't have our own reporters connecting live from Gaza during the conflict. ??

You shouldn't belive everthing some ppl tells you (meaning the only news sources are the pro hamas ones)
You didn't, only Al-Jazeera had reporters inside Gaza. Others were Palestinian reporters and Israeli reporters that entered with the IDF.

[4X4Driver]

You didn't, only Al-Jazeera had reporters inside Gaza. Others were Palestinian reporters and Israeli reporters that entered with the IDF.

Yes we did..many Turkish channels/news sources always have a permenant correspondants there.

[RoyB]

Well. If you ask me, I would say send some Special Force Units in Gaza. They are good trained I know. To say: why risc their lives for a bunch of terrorists? Ok. I understand it, but why they became Special Force soldiers? To take out any kind of enemy for Israel, if it will take their life so be it. The main point is that they protect Israeli civilians.

But remember: I am not a general or something and have not real life experience so I can think easy on this, but this would be my idea.
You are right, you are not a general at all.
I back the guy who said that people can't take you seriously after this post..

[Moledet]

Yes we did..many Turkish channels/news sources always have a permenant correspondants there.
You didn't, all foreigners left apart of Al Jazeera reporters.
Show me a video of a Turkish reporter inside Gaza (not a Palestinian working for the Turkish media).

[FunnyX]

You didn't, all foreigners left apart of Al Jazeera reporters.
Show me a video of a Turkish reporter inside Gaza (not a Palestinian working for the Turkish media).

http://www.postmedya.com/news_detail.php?id=7681

[Climber]

I do..and I say we have similar places...only that is enough for us to restaring ourselves doing the same thing. [/left]




Whatever it's called..I alwasys see hamas in some kind of clothing that distinguishes from the daily civillian clothes...



Every one has a right to have an opinion..I'm sure there are Israelis differ in opinion from yours too.






I'm sorry to hear that too.

1,500,000 people living in a 360 Square Kilometers place? I doubt it, I am sorry but do teh math and tell me where do you have a territory like that? Are you aware that people can't go out trough the borders, right?
Why? because they elected a goverment that his main mission is to destroy us. How do you manage borders with people who want to kill you?

Hamas gunners use those uniforms for parades, to fight they wear common civilian clothes.

And yes, every Israeli have a different opinion in everything and an opinion about anything, you might be amazed at that.

[Moledet]

http://www.postmedya.com/news_detail.php?id=7681
It's from January 17th, the day the fighting stopped and I have no clue what a civilian helicopter is doing over what you think is Gaza but doesn't look like it to me.

[FunnyX]

It's from January 17th, the day the fighting stopped and I have no clue what a civilian helicopter is doing over what you think is Gaza but doesn't look like it to me.
i havent watched the video but i got this after searching "turkish reporter from gaza"
but i can tell u i've seen turkish reporters on TV in gaza as my friend did while gaza was invaded

[RoyB]

Turkish reporters or Palestinians working for Turkish channels?
If you seen them, than provide a source.

[Gunbird]

First, what we've done in Gaza was to protect our people from terrorist.

People insist in judging us but they aren't ready to take just 5 minutes to think what they would do in similar situations.

It is what my grandfather used to call Living room ethics.

And since I don't live in Israel, i can give you some perspective. A guy in Buenos Aires, in the street see a Haredi Jew and ask him shouting and violently, why you do that to little children's in Gaza?.

The Jew, who is Argentine, and is not Israeli, didn't do anything, he is an Argentine Jew, He is not Israeli. Why is he accountable for anything Israel does?

That's racism. pure 100% old racism.
You seem to want it both ways.

You continually say "we", being inclusive. First sentence of your post, as you associate yourself.

Even more strange given your argument, you use it in the same post criticizing others for doing so. You don't want them to associate you with Israel given your national residence, but you continue associating yourself with Israel given your ethnicity or religious background, or both.

Why do you object, when you agree with them?

[FunnyX]

Turkish reporters or Palestinians working for Turkish channels?
If you seen them, than provide a source.

i ve seen em and dont need to prove it to u ;)
but look net for vids if i can find one

[Try&die]

You are right, you are not a general at all.
I back the guy who said that people can't take you seriously after this post..

As I said, I am not a general and I can say something which is very unusual or unlikely. Why does it make me 'not serious'? Are you suggesting your Special Force can't do the job or are you saying what I am saying is impossible. If the last one is your choice, you can just say it, instead of calling me stuff or something else ;) It is not that hard, you should try it.

[Snoshi]

As I said, I am not a general and I can say something which is very unusual or unlikely. Why does it make me 'not serious'? Are you suggesting your Special Force can't do the job or are you saying what I am saying is impossible. If the last one is your choice, you can just say it, instead of calling me stuff or something else ;) It is not that hard, you should try it.

The post about the Special Forces just proves how little you know about Gaza conflict..
How do you imagine such "attack" to succeed?

[Try&die]

The post about the Special Forces just proves how little you know about Gaza conflict..
How do you imagine such "attack" to succeed?


I know enough. I know it's a high populated area and I know as a Israelian you can't trust anyone there. I also know there are terrorists everywhere and it's a high-risc zone. All of them are subjects of training in Special Force..?

I also don't say that it can be solved in 1 attack or 1 invasion of Special Force teams. For example short invasions and attacks in the night with some high-tech tools you got. ( simply said ofcourse )

[RoyB]

As I said, I am not a general and I can say something which is very unusual or unlikely. Why does it make me 'not serious'? Are you suggesting your Special Force can't do the job or are you saying what I am saying is impossible. If the last one is your choice, you can just say it, instead of calling me stuff or something else ;) It is not that hard, you should try it.
The thing is, that what you said is just ridiculous.
Sending SF to eliminate 20.000 terrorists? don't you think it 'a bit' risky to send the SF? don't you think the terrorists will still hide behind civilians? don't you think its just idiotic to suggest such thing? I can keep going like that whole day.
You solution is no better than 10 year old's who say 'lets just drop a nuke on them'.

[Snoshi]

I know enough. I know it's a high populated area and I know as a Israelian you can't trust anyone there. I also know there are terrorists everywhere and it's a high-risc zone. All of them are subjects of training in Special Force..?

I also don't say that it can be solved in 1 attack or 1 invasion of Special Force teams. For example short invasions and attacks in the night with some high-tech tools you got. ( simply said ofcourse )

Again.. You realise that Gaza is defended by 20 000 armed Hamas men who hold urban areas... And how many SF's do you think that Israel got?

And right now you are talking about regular raids that were being done on daily basis before the cease-fire with little effect.

[Climber]

You seem to want it both ways.

You continually say "we", being inclusive. First sentence of your post, as you associate yourself.

Even more strange given your argument, you use it in the same post criticizing others for doing so. You don't want them to associate you with Israel given your national residence, but you continue associating yourself with Israel given your ethnicity or religious background, or both.

Why do you object, when you agree with them?

What? I am not Haredi, dude! I am not even strictly kosher ( sorry guys).

Why "we" and "us" I mean Israelis and since I am a veteran ( and still a resevist when I can), I also meant Tzahal.

I am not talking about me, I was talking about something that happened in Buenos Aires some weeks ago, that I watched. As you may we aware, not all the Jewish are Israelis, as not the Israelis are Jewish. Most of the Jewish in diaspora, even never have been in Israel. SO why should them we responsible for what Israel does? just because people is ignorant, and in that context ignorance means racism?

Give me a break.

My English is not that bad.



And please forgive me for not having a master in English. I speak Spanish, because I was born in Argentina, and I speak Hebrew, because I was raised and lived in Israel for 20 years. I speak English because, it is cool and helps me in my job?

I really don't get your post. I would love to you to explain me what wanted you to say.


Thank you.

[RoyB]

I know enough. I know it's a high populated area and I know as a Israelian you can't trust anyone there. I also know there are terrorists everywhere and it's a high-risc zone. All of them are subjects of training in Special Force..?

I also don't say that it can be solved in 1 attack or 1 invasion of Special Force teams. For example short invasions and attacks in the night with some high-tech tools you got. ( simply said ofcourse )
Again, I mean like what the **** man?:cantbeli:

[Try&die]

The thing is, that what you said is just ridiculous.
Sending SF to eliminate 20.000 terrorists? don't you think it 'a bit' risky to send the SF? don't you think the terrorists will still hide behind civilians? don't you think its just idiotic to suggest such thing? I can keep going like that whole day.
You solution is no better than 10 year old's who say 'lets just drop a nuke on them'.


I didn't say it has to be done in 1 time. Read my last posts.

[Try&die]

Again.. You realise that Gaza is defended by 20 000 armed Hamas men who hold urban areas... And how many SF's do you think that Israel got?

And right now you are talking about regular raids that were being done on daily basis before the cease-fire with little effect.

So what you are basicly saying is: Beside bombing on large scal with a potentiel high risc of innocent death there is no solution to this problem?

[RoyB]

The fact is, that what you are suggesting is not practical, and only shows how little you know.

[Try&die]

Again, I mean like what the **** man?:cantbeli:


Sorry, it is all my fault. I thought you guys were better then bombing alone. Sorry again.

[Try&die]

The fact is, that what you are suggesting is not practical, and only shows how little you know.

Tell me, what do I not know.

[Snoshi]

So what you are basicly saying is: Beside bombing on large scal with a potentiel high risc of innocent death there is no solution to this problem?

You know that IDF troops were present in Gaza City during the Cast Lead? Or did you miss it?

[Try&die]

You know that IDF troops were present in Gaza City during the Cast Lead? Or did you miss it?

Yes. after they bombed the **** of Gaza. Or did I missed something as you say?

[timetraveller]

You know that IDF troops were present in Gaza City during the Cast Lead? Or did you miss it?


But one thing still puzzles me ,, Why didnt they not take down the flags ?

[Climber]

Sorry, it is all my fault. I thought you guys were better then bombing alone. Sorry again.

look, it easier to say it than to do it. Have you been in combat? well all the clichés are right. You can try to avoid civilian victims, but at one moment, if is your life, or the lives of your comrades, or the lives of your family in the home front, there is not much to think. It kills me to see this people suffering, but what they want? They want us to accept them attacking us? at the end its all about Israel existence.

[Snoshi]

Yes. after they bombed the **** of Gaza. Or did I missed something as you say?

Again.. You know that its military operation? Only idiots send in ground units without artillery and air preparation...

[Try&die]

look, it easier to say it than to do it. Have you been in combat? well all the clichés are right. You can try to avoid civilian victims, but at one moment, if is your life, or the lives of your comrades, or the lives of your family in the home front, there is not much to think. It kills me to see this people suffering, but what they want? They want us to accept them attacking us? at the end its all about Israel existence.

Ok. I understand that.

[Try&die]

Again.. You know that its military operation? Only idiots send in ground units without artillery and air preparation...

It may be idiots, but they haven't killed so much innocent people then, wouldn't they. But ok I get it. You are saying : we don't want to risc our lives for them. It's human thinking, I understand.

[Moledet]

It may be idiots, but they haven't killed so much innocent people then, wouldn't they. But ok I get it. You are saying : we don't want to risc our lives for them. It's human thinking, I understand.
If Hamas ****y traps the house, do you expect us to send soldiers inside so Hamas can blow it up or bomb it from the air?

[Try&die]

If Hamas ****y traps the house, do you expect us to send soldiers inside so Hamas can blow it up or bomb it from the air?

I've allready said I understood why Israel is bombing, but in my opinion it is not the best way to attack. ( with regard to civilians ) I don't want to repeat this every single time again...

[kvk1]

Somebody close this idiotic thread already...

x100.

Can we also implement an IQ and English test as a prerequisite to joining these boards. :cantbeli:

[kvk1]

But you also are suggesting that you have done nothing wrong and then start 'attacking' other countries of being critical and pro-Hamas.

No. Being critical is absolutely normal. Being pro-Hamas is not.

Plain and simple.

Hamas is a vermin in the area working against the good of both Israelis and Palestinian.

[kkbou]

will I get banned for saying 'Armenia'? I am only asking. If it should lead to a ban then I won't say it.

[Ali Baba]

I Only read the first Page, And it Reeks of Fail. This thread is just Cluster ****ing the members from Different Sides. it aint helping none. All its doing is just pouring gas into the fire. We cant go and say that one side is at fault whole the other is not, everyone is at fault for the sittuation in gaza and the middle east, Even the Eskimos, Silly Basterds in there little huts, But seriously, I Vote we lock this thread befor the mods ban hammer lands at people.

[Gunbird]

will I get banned for saying 'Armenia'? I am only asking. If it should lead to a ban then I won't say it.
Sure, but then you would have to bring up the genocide of the people of Midian at the hands of the children of Israel.

[m.i.t]

what are your opinions for near future of Turkey Israel relations ?

[kamaz]

I know enough. I know it's a high populated area and I know as a Israelian you can't trust anyone there. I also know there are terrorists everywhere and it's a high-risc zone. All of them are subjects of training in Special Force..?

I also don't say that it can be solved in 1 attack or 1 invasion of Special Force teams. For example short invasions and attacks in the night with some high-tech tools you got. ( simply said ofcourse )



to all the Turkish members who are so 'outraged' at the Gaza civvie casualties due to IDF operation to stop terrorists.

where was your outrage a year and half ago, when the Lebanese army used artillery strikes to clear out a Palestinian terror camp? inside a city?

there were hundreds of civilian casualties, yet I havent heard a peep from any of Palestinian Arab or Muslim friends about that little 4 week war. All of a sudden, every Turk here is an operational expert, suggesting Special Forces this, precision strikes that, etc. WHere was all your armchair warrior tactical knowledge when it was the Lebanese doing the fighting, not Israel?

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=82710
Covered by an intense artillery barrage, the Lebanese Army drove Fatah al-Islam militants back from the periphery of the Nahr al-Bared Palestinian refugee camp Friday, with the army taking over militants' positions along the camp's perimeter. Residents of areas surrounding Nahr al-Bared awoke Friday to one of the heaviest battles between.


or does the outrage occur only when Jews decide to defend themselves against 5 years of rockets and terrorism?

you are all a bunch of hypocrites.

[Moledet]

what are your opinions for near future of Turkey Israel relations ?
Depends on the Turkish government, if the people choose the same party than the relations won't be good. Just like it was with France, the relations weren't good until Sarkozy came to power.

[Hollis]

Kamaz, Maybe add, "Black September" "The violence resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of people, the vast majority Palestinian"

[m.i.t]

t


or does the outrage occur only when Jews decide to defend themselves against 5 years of rockets and terrorism?

you are all a bunch of hypocrites.

Totally poor derailing and childish reaction.

No Turk has cricticized israel for fighting aganist terorism by now...

Only and only civillian killings disturbed too much... me too..

is it weird ?

Any one can shell and bomb where they ever wish as long as not to kill civillians...we dont care...

Israeli civillians are nor more valueable than palestine civillians...

İf you say it you will mean hamas is right to kill israeli civillians...

civillian killings are terorism....

we say NO EXCUSE for civillian killings...

nothing can make it reasonable...

Muslim or Jewish .... NO CIVILLIAN KILLINGS ....

kill only terorists ... Got it ?

[ggk]

you guys get a life...the thread starter are right. generalising a race just because a man, or group action are wrong.... stop disscussing about this gaza conflict here...dont you get tired of it?

unless you get paid ofcourse.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=149918

[4X4Driver]

to all the Turkish members who are so 'outraged' at the Gaza civvie casualties due to IDF operation to stop terrorists.

where was your outrage a year and half ago, when the Lebanese army used artillery strikes to clear out a Palestinian terror camp? inside a city?

there were hundreds of civilian casualties, yet I havent heard a peep from any of Palestinian Arab or Muslim friends about that little 4 week war. All of a sudden, every Turk here is an operational expert, suggesting Special Forces this, precision strikes that, etc. WHere was all your armchair warrior tactical knowledge when it was the Lebanese doing the fighting, not Israel?

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=82710
Covered by an intense artillery barrage, the Lebanese Army drove Fatah al-Islam militants back from the periphery of the Nahr al-Bared Palestinian refugee camp Friday, with the army taking over militants' positions along the camp's perimeter. Residents of areas surrounding Nahr al-Bared awoke Friday to one of the heaviest battles between.


or does the outrage occur only when Jews decide to defend themselves against 5 years of rockets and terrorism?

you are all a bunch of hypocrites.

Not only that, but we never did react to arabs killing eachother anywhere. Also, we've given support to anyone who fought against fundementalism. We've also criticzied Erdogan (in all the threads you guys started lately) for his support for Hamas...despite this, you didn't distinguish betwen him and us majority as his opposition and kept attacking our nation in general. I've personally have enough of this...I despise Erdogan, but your broadbrushing of us all makes me sick.

[Ali Baba]

you guys get a life...the thread starter are right. generalising a race just because a man, or group action are wrong.... stop disscussing about this gaza conflict here...dont you get tired of it?

unless you get paid ofcourse.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=149918


Damnit! You Figured me Out!

[ed316]

Hilarious. It's only wrong if Israel kills civilians. Muslims do it and it's ok. No outrage. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[chris450]

Hilarious. It's only wrong if Israel kills civilians. Muslims do it and it's ok. No outrage. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
you're either a Turk hater ,or a paid provocateur :grin:

[ed316]

you're either a Turk hater ,or a paid provocateur :grin:


I would like it in yuans, please.

[4X4Driver]

Hilarious. It's only wrong if Israel kills civilians. Muslims do it and it's ok. No outrage. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Yep..that's how Erdogan and his kind is like..It's called "takiyye". We've been saying it all along. Our reaction is your broadbrushing of the whole nation over his words with the propaganda threads lately. Well.. it's not helping..he definetely gets more ppl on his ranks everytime you target the whole nation as "anti-semit" :roll:

[ed316]

Yep..that's how Erdogan and his kind is like..It's called "takiyye". We've been saying it all along. Our reaction is your broadbrushing of the whole nation over his words with the propaganda threads lately. Well.. it's not helping..he definetely gets more ppl on his ranks everytime you target the whole nation as "anti-semit" :roll:




Originally Posted by ed316 http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3879555#post3879555)
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.


..............

[4X4Driver]

..............


Riiight..we'll see how the region we'll be when Turkey and Israel get's on the opposite sides for good...keep pushing it.

[kamaz]

Muslim or Jewish .... NO CIVILLIAN KILLINGS ....

kill only terorists ... Got it ?

wow.. now that you put it that way, why havent I thought of that before?

or the IDF, why didnt they think so clearly as you??

IDF commander to his troops

"hey guys, lets concentrate on killiing only the terrorists, and not the civilians ok, that would make more sense than what we are doing now. So whenever you see a terrorist, and you can tell they are a terrorist because they will be wearing a t-shirt that says "Terrorist" on it, then you can kill him, but leave the others alone ok. Only kill the guys with the t-shirts"

wow.. its so simple now. Offcourse you dont have to denounce Hamas for hiding behind civlians and firing rockets and mortars from residential buildings, why that would be ridiculous!

Israelis should only kill terrorists! got that?

[ed316]

Riiight..we'll see how the region we'll be when Turkey and Israel get's on the opposite sides for good...keep pushing it.


Doubt it. Making money means more.

[ggk]

wow.. now that you put it that way, why havent I thought of that before?

or the IDF, why didnt they think so clearly as you??

IDF commander to his troops

"hey guys, lets concentrate on killiing only the terrorists, and not the civilians ok, that would make more sense than what we are doing now. So whenever you see a terrorist, and you can tell they are a terrorist because they will be wearing a t-shirt that says "Terrorist" on it, then you can kill him, but leave the others alone ok. Only kill the guys with the t-shirts"

wow.. its so simple now. Offcourse you dont have to denounce Hamas for hiding behind civlians and firing rockets and mortars from residential buildings, why that would be ridiculous!

Israelis should only kill terrorists! got that?

how about, when you see an evil terorist shooting from a school...you sent elite soldier to storm the school instead of bombing it. that make more sense.

[kamaz]

how about, when you see an evil terorist shooting from a school...you sent elite soldier to storm the school instead of bombing it. that make more sense.

interesting strategy there, Cpt. Loveseat.

So your drones pick up a video of a Hamas rocket team firing rockets from schools, deep inside Gaza city, a heavily populated urban zone.

Lets follow your logic. You fly in a group of SF on a chopper and try to insert them into the zone, except the chopper starts taking fire and is hit by RPGs and large calibre rifle rounds.

You now have a dead A-team, minus a chopper, minus a chopper crew, and you now have to provide perimeter security to get the rescue team to secure the site and withdraw casualties, all wrapped up in heavy cross fire, from which hundreds get killed on the ground.

Not only that, the large ground force that moves in to retrieve killed IDF personnel is caught in a Hamas ****y-trapped zone full of explosives that they have been busy placing for last 5 years. So now you have dozens of dead IDF personel, a living Hamas terrorist who keeps on firing his rockets from deep inside urban zone, and a propaganda victory for Hamas.

your plans are so brilliant, throw some SF guys at the problem, that will always reduce civilian casualties!! duh! nevermind all the technical problems, the crossfire, the insertion, etc. all that doesnt matter, just throw some SF guys at it.

[Snoshi]

how about, when you see an evil terorist shooting from a school...you sent elite soldier to storm the school instead of bombing it. that make more sense.
Or.... IDF should call for Batman to do it for them!!

[Elemental666]

how about, when you see an evil terorist shooting from a school...you sent elite soldier to storm the school instead of bombing it. that make more sense.

Right-O. You guys are awesome.

It takes about one minute to set up a Qassam launcher, put it on a timer, and run away. How many "ELITE SOLDIER" you think IDF has running around nearby to counter these launching crews?

Not to mention the amount of IED's waiting for the ground forces on the ground. The troops move slowly, using canine units to find the bombs, and combat engineers to disable them.

Any more brilliant suggestions?

[kamaz]

all these military suggestions from our Turkish friends sound like they were concocted by a 10-year old playing too much Counter Strike.

[RoyB]

The perfect way to describe the last 5 pages^.
Thank you..

[m.i.t]

wow.. now that you put it that way, why havent I thought of that before?

or the IDF, why didnt they think so clearly as you??

IDF commander to his troops

"hey guys, lets concentrate on killiing only the terrorists, and not the civilians ok, that would make more sense than what we are doing now. So whenever you see a terrorist, and you can tell they are a terrorist because they will be wearing a t-shirt that says "Terrorist" on it, then you can kill him, but leave the others alone ok. Only kill the guys with the t-shirts"

wow.. its so simple now. Offcourse you dont have to denounce Hamas for hiding behind civlians and firing rockets and mortars from residential buildings, why that would be ridiculous!

Israelis should only kill terrorists! got that?


l got a good idea...

İf you kill all gaza people it will provide to kill all hamas members ...

in math its called zero probability ...

No man no hamas ... No hamas No problem.

Final solution ...

Again...

nothing can make it reasonable of civilian killings...

İf you cant find terorists this is not fault of civilians...

Problem between you and hamas teror organization...

[kvk1]

wow.. now that you put it that way, why havent I thought of that before?

or the IDF, why didnt they think so clearly as you??

IDF commander to his troops

"hey guys, lets concentrate on killiing only the terrorists, and not the civilians ok, that would make more sense than what we are doing now. So whenever you see a terrorist, and you can tell they are a terrorist because they will be wearing a t-shirt that says "Terrorist" on it, then you can kill him, but leave the others alone ok. Only kill the guys with the t-shirts"

wow.. its so simple now. Offcourse you dont have to denounce Hamas for hiding behind civlians and firing rockets and mortars from residential buildings, why that would be ridiculous!

Israelis should only kill terrorists! got that?

Cute.

Nothing but condescending BS.

If I were you I'd put more effort into concise and actually thought out points that we can debate.


Offcourse you dont have to denounce Hamas for hiding behind civlians and firing rockets and mortars from residential buildings, why that would be ridiculous!

:roll:


However we are not in a position to approve things that Hamas do.http://hurarsiv.hurriyet.com.tr/goster/haber.aspx?id=10865002&tarih=2009-01-27


If we become a party to the conflict between the Hamas and Palestinian Mahmoud Abbas' al Fatah groups, Turkey is doing the wrong thing. The prime minister also challenges Abbas. It is our duty to take care of the 70 million people in Turkey. We cannot be sentimental," Baykal said in his address to his party's parliamentary group meeting yesterday. http://hurarsiv.hurriyet.com.tr/goster/haber.aspx?id=10818733&tarih=2009-01-21


Turkish opposition parties, ex-diplomats and columnists have accused the government of taking a pro-Hamas stance.http://uk.*******.com/article/burningIssues/idUKTRE50Q2LI20090127?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

There is more denouncing of Hamas than slamming of Israel going on. But the constant generalizations aren't ****ing helping. That's the gist of it.

[RoyB]

Oh, we found the terrorists, guess where they were?

[Parx400]

all these military suggestions from our Turkish friends sound like they were concocted by a 10-year old playing too much Counter Strike.


"Kassam down in B" We should head down to south de_Gaza to guard it before the T's try to plant it. Make sure to use the AWP so you dont kill any civi's. I will camp spawn.

[RoyB]

L337 post man ^rofl

[Parx400]

You mean go all TURK style on them, Cough Kurds, cough Greeks, Cough Cough Cough Armenians.

You guys are going to single handedly keep Caterpillar in business during the recession with the hole you are digging.




l got a good idea...

İf you kill all gaza people it will provide to kill all hamas members ...

in math its called zero probability ...

No man no hamas ... No hamas No problem.

Final solution ...

Again...

nothing can make it reasonable of civilian killings...

İf you cant find terorists this is not fault of civilians...

Problem between you and hamas teror organization...

[m.i.t]

parx400...

Greek mate. Please do not derail the topic ....Read the headline before pissing Turks...

İf you like open a new thread for different matters...

[~Berdan]

Kinda strange to hear Turkish guys talk about morality with it's own 20 century history.Maybe I didn't have a problem with that,but the guys keep acting like all that didn't happened,with gruelsome nationality display.

Yep,talking as a supposed Turk here. :( Yaşasın Türkmenistan and all that...

[Karaahmetoglu]

Kinda strange to hear Turkish guys talk about morality with it's own 20 century history.Maybe I didn't have a problem with that,but the guys keep acting like all that didn't happened,with gruelsome nationality display.

Yep,talking as a supposed Turk here. :( Yaşasın Türkmenistan and all that...


Wah??? I doubt you are Azeri with that first comment you made. Are you talking about the "Armenian Genocide"? No real Azeri would ever blame Turks on that.

122334455

[4X4Driver]

You mean go all TURK style on them, Cough Kurds, cough Greeks, Cough Cough Cough Armenians.

You guys are going to single handedly keep Caterpillar in business during the recession with the hole you are digging.




No..go all Greek on them..just deniy the existence of the ethnic Macedonians on the face of this earth...or create a new race as "Greek Muslims" just to avoid saying Turk..in Greece.

How 'bout that?

[Ulytau]

Isnt Avigdor Lieberman said that?


"We must continue to fight Hamas just like the United States did with the Japanese in World War II," Avigdor Lieberman, the head of an ultra-nationalist opposition party, said Tuesday.

Or some words from the Likud or maybe someone can explain to me Promised Land map anyone interest to explain me how many people cares that?

Oh my point is simple how many people cares him or how many times we hearin kind of words from the politicians?

First wanted to say especially Mazlum-Der and Ozgur-Der did fundemalists things funny thing this dudes mostly becomin problem for the Turkish Republic and Turkish Army operations aganist PKK too.. (Also a political party was there too ''SAADET'' their ex leader who signed Free Trade and Military Pact with Israel as my mom said if someone speaks about an issue so much cause she/he feelin guilty)

Bout UN bombing places etc. thing

My personal idea Turkiye had serious problem with UN epic fails many times too we seen how they were coverin innocent people or ASALA terrorists with UN passport''Cant remember Passport name but which given from the UN,Mahmur Camp in Northern Iraq (As i read finally they start to solve problem)

Bout storming the house as i read memories of the War Journalists yeah they did before operations and as i read they were really good bout cleanin the house,My personal idea this last operation more then operation this operation for was message..

Want to explain which makes me angry;

Rememberin very well which media was INSULTING the Turks with singing DEMOCRACY songs when army warns bout some issues still we hear same thing when we show reaction aganist terrorism DEMOCRACY SONGS again funny thing when they start to hear what they dont want they start to SAY similar words interestin isnt it?

[~Berdan]

Wah??? I doubt you are Azeri with that first comment you made. Are you talking about the "Armenian Genocide"? No real Azeri would ever blame Turks on that.

122334455

Well,first of all,sevgili arkadeş,I'm not Azeri(maybe my avatar confuses you,because I lived there as well...beautiful place ever.Lived in many countries,born in Turkmenistan).And what you saying now is display of such blind nationality.It is important to keep an open mind(lived in a ****load of different countries,maybe that's my "problem").

It is important to be proud of your nationality,it's all different thing to..Well,never mind,it is too long of a subject for this thread.

[MadeByForce]

l got a good idea...

İf you kill all gaza people it will provide to kill all hamas members ...

in math its called zero probability ...

No man no hamas ... No hamas No problem.

Final solution ...

Again...

nothing can make it reasonable of civilian killings...

İf you cant find terorists this is not fault of civilians...

Problem between you and hamas teror organization...
look, i wont talk big words ill just say it as simply as it is, do you think that a 21 years old soldier (aka children killer for you) will spare anyone's life when RPGs are shot at him and his friends from some direction? he will do anything to eliminate that threat.
noone is deliberately killing civilians, and if we "cant find terrorists" do you mean that we should do nothing? then yes, i guess its not your home town thats being bombed, but im sure you would say the same in that case :]

[Karaahmetoglu]

Well,first of all,sevgili arkadeş,I'm not Azeri(maybe my avatar confuses you,because I lived there as well...beautiful place ever.Lived in many countries,born in Turkmenistan).And what you saying now is display of such blind nationality.It is important to keep an open mind(lived in a ****load of different countries,maybe that's my "problem").

It is important to be proud of your nationality,it's all different thing to..Well,never mind,it is too long of a subject for this thread.

What nationality are you though? I know you are Jewish.

[~Berdan]

What nationality are you though? I know you are Jewish.

Well,here is your first mistake...:) :)
Nope ;).Confused?

[Ulytau]

By the way most funniest protest was from the Sivasspor '' A Turkish Football team'' fans when they protestin same time the were saying Long Live Balili (Israeli footballer who playin at Sivasspor)rofl

[4X4Driver]

Well,first of all,sevgili arkadeş,I'm not Azeri(maybe my avatar confuses you,because I lived there as well...beautiful place ever.Lived in many countries,born in Turkmenistan).And what you saying now is display of such blind nationality.It is important to keep an open mind(lived in a ****load of different countries,maybe that's my "problem").




.

Yep,talking as a supposed Turk here. :( Yaşasın Türkmenistan and all that...


So you are just a poser huh? well.. I'm pretty sure that's not allowed here.

[Moledet]

Ulytau, whoever said it is right, we should fight in Gaza until they ask for a ceasefire just like the US fought Japan until they surrendered.

I didn't understand the rest of your post.

[Try&die]

The thread is getting an anti-Turk thread( as many times when Turkey is involved ) how nice:) Not to mention 10-year old attitude;)

[Ulytau]

Ulytau, whoever said it is right, we should fight in Gaza until they ask for a ceasefire just like the US fought Japan until they surrendered.

I didn't understand the rest of your post.


Clearly he mean Atomic Bomb and how many people care him? I mean kind of politicians or people are everywhere.

[~Berdan]

So you are just a poser huh? well.. I'm pretty sure that's not allowed here.

Say what??Perhaps something lost in translation?
"Supposedly" doesn't mean pretending,or maybe it's my English that sucks balls.

[Moledet]

Clearly he mean Atomic Bomb and how many people care him? I mean kind of politicians or people are everywhere.
It's clear he doesn't.

He's a good politician, the one I am going to vote for.

[Try&die]

look, i wont talk big words ill just say it as simply as it is, do you think that a 21 years old soldier (aka children killer for you) will spare anyone's life when RPGs are shot at him and his friends from some direction? he will do anything to eliminate that threat.
noone is deliberately killing civilians, and if we "cant find terrorists" do you mean that we should do nothing? then yes, i guess its not your home town thats being bombed, but im sure you would say the same in that case :]

Again, you are understanding us wrong. We are WITH you in the war against terror. And we understand that the soldier puts his on life first. But what we don't like that much is the bombing. We know it's neccesary, but still it's really bad to see those innocent people killed by a airstrike. Do you read me ;)

[Karaahmetoglu]

Well,here is your first mistake...:) :)
Nope ;).Confused?


Jewish i thought was you faith. Not your nationality. You are Russian then?

[saladin]

As this threat is very derailed, lets just summarize what most Turks think.

1. Most Turks are very sorry about the drama in Gaza, nobody likes to see hundreds of civilians, including a large number of children die. Regardless of their nation. Note that Turkey is under continuous terrorist threat and every year we see some sensasitonal bombing that kills dozens of people. In that respect, it is sad, but the impression in Turkish minds are that terrorism happens including in their own lives, so Hamas' attacks on Israel's soil are part of the daily life in a country under terror thread. So, they expect similar response as Turkey did. Response selectively, and not against the whole population. Turks also understand the Israeli response that it is very hard for them to spot the terrorists among other population. But that does not justify the force used by Israel.

2. Most Turks are criticizing Erdogan about his stand that appears as Hamas supporter. They are aware of Hamas being recognized as terrorist organization by several countries. %47 of people did not select him because he supported Hamas but they perceived that the country was economically better in his leadership, or his world view was closer to theirs than the others. The world view is of course a large definition and not solely consists of one's look at a single event.

3. Turkey is working behind the curtains as a go-between several parties, but Erdogan's popularist talks are hiding this fact.

The main reason (in my opinion) Erdogan reacted so harshly is that he was shown what self-delude he was. He thought he could fix mid-east problem, a problem that is almost a century old. Israel simply showed how self-deluded he was by starting Gaza attacks just two days after an official visit of Israeli prime-minister to Turkey. During the meetings, Erdogan got the impression that he was meditating both Syria and Israel perfectly. That illusion was shuttered when he learned that all this time he had no effect on Israel at all. So, he exploded without control.

Of course, there could be another explanation, that is Turkey is not interested only Europe anymore but trying to move its influence to other regions. What a better way to announce this by showing the Arabs that he will be their protector in near future. But I doubt he has the vision to be able to think and play like that. So that is why I believe he reacts with his own feelings, the feelings of a deluded man who was shown that he was not the real thing.

[Climber]

Gunbird[/COLOR];3879358]Sure, but then you would have to bring up the genocide of the people of Midian at the hands of the children of Israel.

So you still post but You don't answer my question. You, theEnglish teacher, didn't understand my simple post?



Riiight..we'll see how the region we'll be when Turkey and Israel get's on the opposite sides for good...keep pushing it.



What? And that is a treat? the day Turkey does that, good bye NATO, Good bye USA, good bye EU.





l got a good idea...

İf you kill all gaza people it will provide to kill all hamas members ...

in math its called zero probability ...

No man no hamas... No hamas No problem.

Final solution ...

Again...

nothing can make it reasonable of civilian killings...

İf you cant find terorists this is not fault of civilians...

Problem between you and hamas teror organization...

Are you suggesting that? you are disgusting.

And what means we can't find terrorists?

these is so surrealist.

I admit that the bombing sucks, it is terrible, but war is terrible.

you people, you don't know a sh*t about combat, you talk like if it is easy. And is not.

We can't find terrorist, what a cruel and banal joke.

[4X4Driver]

good bye
NATO


Good bye USA, good bye EU.

Sounds like a music to my ears. I hope to see that day come true in my life time.







As this threat is very derailed, lets just summarize what most Turks think.

1. Most Turks are very sorry about the drama in Gaza, nobody likes to see hundreds of civilians, including a large number of children die. Regardless of their nation. Note that Turkey is under continuous terrorist threat and every year we see some sensasitonal bombing that kills dozens of people. In that respect, it is sad, but the impression in Turkish minds are that terrorism happens including in their own lives, so Hamas' attacks on Israel's soil are part of the daily life in a country under terror thread. So, they expect similar response as Turkey did. Response selectively, and not against the whole population. Turks also understand the Israeli response that it is very hard for them to spot the terrorists among other population. But that does not justify the force used by Israel.

2. Most Turks are criticizing Erdogan about his stand that appears as Hamas supporter. They are aware of Hamas being recognized as terrorist organization by several countries. %47 of people did not select him because he supported Hamas but they perceived that the country was economically better in his leadership, or his world view was closer to theirs than the others. The world view is of course a large definition and not solely consists of one's look at a single event.

3. Turkey is working behind the curtains as a go-between several parties, but Erdogan's popularist talks are hiding this fact.

The main reason (in my opinion) Erdogan reacted so harshly is that he was shown what self-delude he was. He thought he could fix mid-east problem, a problem that is almost a century old. Israel simply showed how self-deluded he was by starting Gaza attacks just two days after an official visit of Israeli prime-minister to Turkey. During the meetings, Erdogan got the impression that he was meditating both Syria and Israel perfectly. That illusion was shuttered when he learned that all this time he had no effect on Israel at all. So, he exploded without control.

Of course, there could be another explanation, that is Turkey is not interested only Europe anymore but trying to move its influence to other regions. What a better way to announce this by showing the Arabs that he will be their protector in near future. But I doubt he has the vision to be able to think and play like that. So that is why I believe he reacts with his own feelings, the feelings of a deluded man who was shown that he was not the real thing.


Good post saladin.

[Climber]

Sounds like a music to my ears. I hope to see that day come true in my life time.


Ok, I get it.

[ggk]

interesting strategy there, Cpt. Loveseat.

So your drones pick up a video of a Hamas rocket team firing rockets from schools, deep inside Gaza city, a heavily populated urban zone.

Lets follow your logic. You fly in a group of SF on a chopper and try to insert them into the zone, except the chopper starts taking fire and is hit by RPGs and large calibre rifle rounds.

You now have a dead A-team, minus a chopper, minus a chopper crew, and you now have to provide perimeter security to get the rescue team to secure the site and withdraw casualties, all wrapped up in heavy cross fire, from which hundreds get killed on the ground.

Not only that, the large ground force that moves in to retrieve killed IDF personnel is caught in a Hamas ****y-trapped zone full of explosives that they have been busy placing for last 5 years. So now you have dozens of dead IDF personel, a living Hamas terrorist who keeps on firing his rockets from deep inside urban zone, and a propaganda victory for Hamas.

your plans are so brilliant, throw some SF guys at the problem, that will always reduce civilian casualties!! duh! nevermind all the technical problems, the crossfire, the insertion, etc. all that doesnt matter, just throw some SF guys at it.

yeah thats about right..sent soldier in. fight them. you guys are very extremely good in this right? urban warfare....... are you saying IDF couldnt do it? not able too?

a dozens soldier fell in the line of duty are heavy casualties? well i love my chair but even i know that you will kill more terrorist if you hunt them eyeball. and you will (definately will) reduce the number of children casualties using that way.









dont be to harsh man, i did this for free.

[LaoSexMachine]

Epic thread. Bunch of Delta operators.

[NimDod]

saladin: thank you for summarizing this whole mess of a thread.

[RoyB]

yeah thats about right..sent soldier in. fight them. you guys are very extremely good in this right? urban warfare....... are you saying IDF couldnt do it? not able too?

a dozens soldier fell in the line of duty are heavy casualties? well i love my chair but even i know that you will kill more terrorist if you hunt them eyeball. and you will (definately will) reduce the number of children casualties using that way.









dont be to harsh man, i did this for free.
You all sure are d3lta..
What military campaign in our modern world, started without a heavy bombardment from the air/artillery 1st?

[Elemental666]

yeah thats about right..sent soldier in. fight them. you guys are very extremely good in this right? urban warfare....... are you saying IDF couldnt do it? not able too?

Why do you insist on being an idiot?



It takes about one minute to set up a Qassam launcher, put it on a timer, and run away. How many "ELITE SOLDIER" you think IDF has running around nearby to counter these launching crews?

Not to mention the amount of IED's waiting for the ground forces on the ground. The troops move slowly, using canine units to find the bombs, and combat engineers to disable them.


Did you miss this part? "SEND SOLDIERS IN". In where? You think Qassam crews stay there and wait for IDF to arrive so they can fight them? It's not their job. They come, set up the launcher, run away. Where is the hard part to understand here?


dont be to harsh man, i did this for free.

Comedy master at work. You do realize no one actually pays pro-Israeli bloggers right? They are volunteers.

[Eye]

You all sure are d3lta..
What military campaign in our modern world, started without a heavy bombardment from the air/artillery 1st?
I saw it in the movie :roll: "Black hawk down" or something. There weren't any artillery. Does it mean that they were an idiots??

[AmoebaProject]

I saw it in the movie :roll: "Black hawk down" or something. There weren't any artillery. Does it mean that they were an idiots??

That was a politically correct movie( no civilian casualties, profussuonalz rulz, good black guy who saves the day... or was it in Pearl Harbour).

It was dumb, boring, and overall just sh1tty movie( I hated it).

[RoyB]

I saw it in the movie :roll: "Black hawk down" or something. There weren't any artillery. Does it mean that they were an idiots??
There's a reason why I wrote air/artillery support.
Why don't you be serious? just say what you have to say.

[Eye]

There's a reason why I wrote air/artillery support.
Why don't you be serious? just say what you have to say.

It was only little observation. I have never been any combat commander, like most of interlocutors here.

[RoyB]

You don't need to be a military general to know that you don't drop ground forces in without softening the target, and provide them with air support and artillery.

[ggk]

You all sure are d3lta..
What military campaign in our modern world, started without a heavy bombardment from the air/artillery 1st?

a COIN operation ofcourse...... This is a COIN operation right? again im not saying soldier going in without any support whatsoever...but if IDF really want to stop the attack against Israel...shouldnt the ground ops come first? and hard. Why the standoff bombing? The american did the same during the battle of Baqubah.

The american 5th Battalion 20th Infantry regiment enter Baqubah to destroy the Islamic State of Iraq forces. There were area of responsibility for each subordinate companies within the batallion, where they conduct combat operation against the insurgent.

It takes a while allright...but the american did systematically cleared the Eastern Half of Baqubah. Is there air support? yes there are... is the collateral damage? yes there are? but more important the american cleared the city from insurgent and able to take controll of it.

Thats why i ask why only short period of ground ops if you really want to stop the rocket attack?



Why do you insist on being an idiot?
.

alhamdullillah.....god bless you.


Did you miss this part? "SEND SOLDIERS IN". In where? You think Qassam crews stay there and wait for IDF to arrive so they can fight them? It's not their job.

if you are so sure they will run away why would you bomb the UN school? and im only talking about this one particular incident.


They come, set up the launcher, run away. Where is the hard part to understand here?

i understand it clearly, they set it they run....so why bomb the school? why not tracked where they go? im sure the mossad have Humint in there seeing everything. Why bomb the school if you are so sure the terrorist will run after shooting from it?


Comedy master at work. You do realize no one actually pays pro-Israeli bloggers right? They are volunteers

really? i didnt know you were one of them.

[Godspeed-]

Why are you even trying to argue with people who's main points in this arguement are: "LOL ISRAEL CANT SEND SOLDIER IN WITHOUT AIRSTRIKE FIRST??? IDF IS A BUNCH OF COWARDS?? WHO NEEDS AIRSTRIKE? LOL COWARDS".

Seriously, there's no point what-so-ever, lay off. If there's something I've learned from this forum is that rage can make you think the most delusional opinions you've got are legitimate and correct. By their second posts on the matter I am sure most of you have realised they are irrational with their comments, so why keep doing it? I'll save you the efforts:

Yes, the Israeli army is made up from a bunch of cowards. The soldiers aren't trained enough to enter an area without some air cover. Their ground units are the worst of their kind and they would get really beaten up if they havn't really killed that many civilians. Yes, killing civilians was a part of the strategy, have you not heard? The main goal of Gaza campaign was to kill as many civilians as possible and avoid the entrance of the ground units because they are so untrained and cowardly, unlike the heroic Hamas or Hizb that go all-out in every battle. There's no such thing as airstrikes to soften the area, it's an Israeli invention in order to justify the killind of innocent civilians that were obviously not being used somehow as a human shield protecting Hamas members, pfft.

That's about it, the whole truth about Israel and their poorly trained ground units. No need to answer them now guys, they are on to us.

[ggk]

^im only questioning the political decision... you a turn off.

a prollong ground ops is needed to destroy the insurgent, this operation should also paralel with the winning of hearts and mind. im not accusing anyone anything.

[RoyB]

a COIN operation ofcourse...... This is a COIN operation right? again im not saying soldier going in without any support whatsoever...but if IDF really want to stop the attack against Israel...shouldnt the ground ops come first? and hard. Why the standoff bombing? The american did the same during the battle of Baqubah.

The american 5th Battalion 20th Infantry regiment enter Baqubah to destroy the Islamic State of Iraq forces. There were area of responsibility for each subordinate companies within the batallion, where they conduct combat operation against the insurgent.

It takes a while allright...but the american did systematically cleared the Eastern Half of Baqubah. Is there air support? yes there are... is the collateral damage? yes there are? but more important the american cleared the city from insurgent and able to take controll of it.

Thats why i ask why only short period of ground ops if you really want to stop the rocket attack?
The 'surprise advantage' was important, and striking specific targets from the air is crucial to weaken their defense.
Sending in ground forces 1st is a risky and idiotic move..
I can keep writing here whole day on that, but I don't have the strength, because I know that by the end of the day, nothing will change, and you will keep singing the same tune.

[ggk]

The 'surprise advantage' was important, and striking specific targets from the air is crucial to weaken their defense.
Sending in ground forces 1st is a risky and idiotic move..
I can keep writing here whole day on that, but I don't have the strength, because I know that by the end of the day, nothing will change, and you will keep singing the same tune.

okay ..this is all off topic anyway. I let it rest. Thanks for the discussion

[eugenlitwin]

A human being doesn't need to be "racist" to react the way they did to what you've done in Gaza...quit using the race card like this..it's getting lame and loosing it's meaning.

its maybe the very first time but - i agree with you here 4 100%

[m.i.t]

You don't need to be a military general to know that you don't drop ground forces in without softening the target, and provide them with air support and artillery.


Also you dont need to be army general to know 155 mm howitzer shells

and MK series bombs have much more high kill ratio in urban areas than

war fields ...

[RoyB]

1st, stop writing half a line.
We didn't use heavy unguided bombs, and again, do you have an other solution?
Because its useless if you don't, you all are just posting here criticizing and fantasizing on Rambo style operations, but you don't propose any other alternative..

[m.i.t]

So you cant find operation solutions ...

is it fault of civillians ? No.

we dont care how an operation should be done ... its your problem...

Nothing make reasonable civillian killings ...

if one days Arabs kill Jewish people same way l ( l dont care fvking politicians) will

have same reaction aganist Arabs...

[RoyB]

turkish president walks off stage over gaza

at economic forum in davos, erdogan tells peres 'you are killing people'; israeli president responds: You would do the same if rockets would fall on istanbul associated press published: 01.29.09, 21:25 / israel news (http://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,l-3082,00.html)
turkish president recep tayyip erdogan walked off the stage at the world economic forum in davos, switzerland, red-faced after verbally sparring with israeli president shimon peres (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,l-3479700,00.html)over the fighting in gaza.
erdogan was angry after being cut off by a panel moderator after listening to an impassioned monologue by peres defending israel's recent offensive against hamas in the gaza strip.
Erdogan declared to peres: "you are killing people." a finger-pointing peres told erdogan at thursday's panel that he would have done the same if rockets had been falling on istanbul.
Earlier thursday peres met (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,l-3664094,00.html) russian prime minister vladimir putin and asked him to help prevent arms trafficking from iran to gaza.
Peres said that "israel has learned from russia that there are some measures a country must resort to when it has no other choice. This was the case in gaza; it was not out of choice that we launched (the offensive), but out of necessity.
"we had to stop the incessant cycle of terror that harmed israel's women and children; but nevertheless, israel wants peace," the president said.

what would you do?

[RoyB]

So you cant find operation solutions ...

is it fault of civillians ? No.

we dont care how an operation should be done ... its your problem...

Nothing make reasonable civillian killings ...

if one days Arabs kill Jewish people same way l ( l dont care fvking politicians) will

have same reaction aganist Arabs...
Stop writing with those annoying gaps between the lines..
And of course its not the fault of the civilians, its the fault of the terrorists.
And I didn't understand your last sentence can you rephrase it?

[Mr.Flint]

Erdogan demanded that Obama recognise Hamas and Hizbullah as resistance not terrorists, at Davos forum....

[m.i.t]

my normally writings in all forums are same and havent got any secret or particular

meaning...My all cluases are very simple short and clear as much as possible..


l meant if one day arabs kill innocent Israel people with same methods (argument

of reasonable killings ) my reaction will be same againist arabs .

Also we are all (Turkish forumers) strictly aganist Hamas teror organization and all

other teror organizations too...

[RoyB]

Oh really?
Arab terrorists groups had been killing innocent Israelis for a long time now.
I don't see any international cry about it, I fvcking hate those hypocrites.

And I didn't say that those innocent civilians deaths are reasonable..
I'm saying that if they knew they are near a terrorist, or near a weapons cache etc, than this is their responsibility, and if something happen to them, than its the terrorists fault.

[Alienoz]

PM Tayyip reduced image of my country to below zero. Language was impolite and aggressive. It is not about politically being correct or incorrect, my complaint is about the level of the language.

I feel ashamed seeing a Muslim Georgian talking in the name of Turks and destroying my country's image. :oops:

[Jeancarl]

Turkish president walks off stage over Gaza

At Economic Forum in Davos, Erdogan tells Peres 'you are killing people'; Israeli president responds: You would do the same if rockets would fall on Istanbul

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan walked off the stage at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, red-faced after verbally sparring with Israeli President Shimon Peres (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/unescape(this.href))over the fighting in Gaza.

Erdogan was angry after being cut off by a panel moderator after listening to an impassioned monologue by Peres defending Israel's recent offensive against Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

Erdogan declared to Peres: "You are killing people." A finger-pointing Peres told Erdogan at Thursday's panel that he would have done the same if rockets had been falling on Istanbul.


The confrontation saw Peres and Ergodan raise their voice shouting, highly unusual at the elite gathering of corporate and world leaders, which is usually marked by learned consensus seeking and polite dialogue. It showed how emotions remain frayed over Israel's offensive against Hamas that ended less than two weeks ago.


The packed audience at the Ergodan and Peres session, which included President Obama's close adviser Valerie Jarrett, appeared stunned.
More here: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3664129,00.html

[4X4Driver]

PM Tayyip reduced image of my country to below zero. Language was impolite and aggressive. It is not about politically being correct or incorrect, my complaint is about the level of the language.

I feel ashamed seeing a Muslim Georgian talking in the name of Turks and destroying my country's image. :oops:

+ 1 Good first post.

Welcome andam.

TTK.

[Ozzy[NO]]

Hotheads and diplomacy is like oil and water

[kvk1]

PM Tayyip reduced image of my country to below zero. Language was impolite and aggressive. It is not about politically being correct or incorrect, my complaint is about the level of the language.

I feel ashamed seeing a Muslim Georgian talking in the name of Turks and destroying my country's image. :oops:


+ 1 Good first post.

Welcome andam.

TTK.

Agreed. This pretty much says it all.

What a mindless dumb mother****er.

[signatory]

Kettle: Pot...

Pot: What Kettle?


Kettle: You're black, Pot.

Pot: Ahhh, OK Kettle.

[Magnus18]

if somebody criticises israels war , they will say "thats antisemitism!! *CRY*"
no doubt that hamas has to be fought, but not at the cost of many innocent people.
phosphorous uranium etc...

[Flamming_Python]

I think that if there is one thing about the Israel/Palestine conflict that can be said - is that it won't be won by the generals.

[RoyB]

if somebody criticises israels war , they will say "thats antisemitism!! *CRY*"
no doubt that hamas has to be fought, but not at cost of many innocent people.
phosphorous uranium etc...
Who said 'antisemitism'?
And boy you don't know a thing right? phosphorus? uranium?
Read more about what was used and come back when you are finished.

[Elemental666]

Erdogan declared to Peres: "You are killing people."

Oh wow, great arguments there Mr. Edrogan.

What a whining little prick.

[b0sco]

Who gives a ****.

[Hollis]

if somebody criticises israels war , they will say "thats antisemitism!! *CRY*"
no doubt that hamas has to be fought, but not at the cost of many innocent people.
phosphorous uranium etc...


That has what to do with this? Lay of the propaganda too (WP and uranium) That has been discussed ad nauseum in the Gaza thread.

[4X4Driver]

Mods..could you please merge this thread with one of the ones already going..

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3882668#post3882668

We're kindda tried of keeping up with this propaganda threads.

Thanks.

[kvk1]

edit: thread merged.

[Ulytau]

Turkish news are saying Simon Peres called Erdogan for saying sorry and Erdogan said his reaction was aganist to moderator..

My personal idea there will be special meeting with Erdogan and Peres.

[FunnyX]

PM Tayyip reduced image of my country to below zero. Language was impolite and aggressive. It is not about politically being correct or incorrect, my complaint is about the level of the language.

I feel ashamed seeing a Muslim Georgian talking in the name of Turks and destroying my country's image. :oops:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/icons/icon13.gifThere are things that we can't ignore,i mean what erdoğan said were not inaccurate but DAVOS should't have been the place in where those things were put into words.:bash:

[Hollis]

A note to our Israeli members, If you haven't notice our Turkish members are pretty much in a agreement with you on Erdogan.

Flaming Turkey does not help. Just like does Olmert represent all of Israel?


Let's try to keep the flames out and keep it civil.

[Magnus18]

prophaganda threads lol
i love the special "forum democracy"
criticizing war and killing of innocent people = warning , shut up or get banned
:roll:
i bet i will get a warning now and some special points

[Hollis]

prophaganda threads lol
i love the special "forum democracy"
criticizing war and killing of innocent people = warning , shut up or get banned
:roll:
i bet i will get a warning now and some special points


No, You were told to stay on topic and follow the forum rules. I suggested that you read the forum rules, it was part of the user agreement that YOU AGREED TO, in order to be a member of this forum.

I can only conclude that you are withdrawing your acceptance of the user agreement. That is fine, your choice. It is that you can no longer be a member of this forum doing so.

I hope you will find a forum more to your liking.

Wish you the best and thank you for being a member.

H.

[m.i.t]

It seems he determined to make Israel new enemy of Turkey....

He has also high agresive and freightning personality .... Much more teribble politic arguments of him were seen in Turkey many times ...

But he will gain much more votes before local elections and popularity among the many muslim countries ...

[FunnyX]

... he will gain much more votes before local elections and popularity among the many muslim countries ...

i was just about to say that ;)
he will get more votes

[Snoshi]

It seems he determined to make Israel new enemy of Turkey....

He has also high agresive and freightning personality .... Much more teribble politic arguments of him were seen in Turkey many times ...

But he will gain much more votes before local elections and popularity among the many muslim countries ...

He learns from Chavez..

[ting]

I sugest people watch at least some of the debate before jumping to conclusions...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR4zRbPy2kY

[4X4Driver]

It seems he determined to make Israel new enemy of Turkey....

He has also high agresive and freightning personality .... Much more teribble politic arguments of him were seen in Turkey many times ...

But he will gain much more votes before local elections and popularity among the many muslim countries ...


Totally agreed. He is definetely determined to get Turkey distanced from the West and closer to the other side...

Many pro AKP commentators on tv saying that he's playing for the leadership of the Muslim world...seems like he's already getting a positive feedback.

God help us :-(

[Moledet]

Shameful show by Erdogan and his wife.

How much longer can he stay in power?

[m.i.t]

Atleast till 2012 july

[Moledet]

Atleast till 2012 july ...
At least or at most? Can you be elected for more than 8 years?

[Alienoz]

At least or at most? Can you be elected for more than 8 years?

He is prime minister, not president. Presidents stay for 5 years only, but PM Tayyip can stay as long as he wants. He would stay longer after 2012 if he doesnt screw economy.

[aed1980]

At Economic Forum in Davos, Erdogan tells Peres 'you are killing people'; Israeli president responds: You would do the same if rockets would fall on Istanbul.

Associated Press
Published: 01.29.09, 21:25 / Israel News

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan walked off the stage at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, red-faced after verbally sparring with Israeli President Shimon Peres over the fighting in Gaza.

Erdogan was angry after being cut off by a panel moderator after listening to an impassioned monologue by Peres defending Israel's recent offensive against Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

Erdogan declared to Peres: "You are killing people." A finger-pointing Peres told Erdogan at Thursday's panel that he would have done the same if rockets had been falling on Istanbul.

The confrontation saw Peres and Ergodan raise their voice shouting, highly unusual at the elite gathering of corporate and world leaders, which is usually marked by learned consensus seeking and polite dialogue. It showed how emotions remain frayed over Israel's offensive against Hamas that ended less than two weeks ago.

The packed audience at the Ergodan and Peres session, which included President Obama's close adviser Valerie Jarrett, appeared stunned.

'I was very sad that Ergodan left'
Afterward, forum founder Klaus Schwab huddled with Erdogan in a corner of the Congress Center. A press conference with both men was scheduled for 8:30 pm (1930 GMT)

"I have known Shimon Peres for many years and I also know Erdogan. I have never seen Shimon Peres so passionate as he was today. I think he felt Israel was being attacked by so many in the international community. He felt isolated," said former Norwegian Prime Minister Kjell Magne Bondevik said.

"I was very sad that Ergodan left. This was an expression of how difficult this situation is."

Amr Moussa, the former Egyptian foreign minister who now leads the Arab League, said Ergodan's action was understandable. "Mr. Ergodan said what he wanted to say and then he left. That's all. He was right." Of Israel, he said, "They don't listen."

Ergodan brushed past reporters outside the hall. His wife appeared upset. "All Peres said was a lie. It was unacceptable," she said, eyes glistening.

Earlier Thursday Peres met Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and asked him to help prevent arms trafficking from Iran to Gaza.

Peres said that "Israel has learned from Russia that there are some measures a country must resort to when it has no other choice. This was the case in Gaza; it was not out of choice that we launched (the offensive), but out of necessity.

"We had to stop the incessant cycle of terror that harmed Israel's women and children; but nevertheless, Israel wants peace," the president said.


I would like to know why Erdogan didnt reply that simple question from Peres instead of making the "i wont come here anymore" circus?

[m.i.t]

At least or at most? Can you be elected for more than 8 years?


last election was helded in 2007 july...He will stay power till 2012 july...

there is no time limitation in Turkish election system...

He can be prime minister as long as he elected ...

[Ghostryder]

The ****ing nerve....

[kvk1]

This guy isn't staying after 2012. No way, no how.

As long as they base substantial part of their voters' support on retarded actions like of today they will fail sooner than later. They have already been dealt huge blows this past year. They're losing crucial districts in Istanbul and have no chance in places like Izmir. Their entire foundation, except for their economical strategy, is based upon shaky grounds.

Having said that they've lately been ****ing up the Turkish economy as well so let's not get ahead of ourselves in summarizing today's shenanigans as the "final shot" and the roadmap to a "forever under AKP rule Turkey" or something.

[kamaz]

jesus what a scary figure. I like how he fit in 'I hate anti-semitism, its a crime against humanity.. but, so is 'islamophobia'. Islamophobia - being the act of criticizing violent Islam and Islamism.

what a douche.

I hope Turks elect a better, more pragmatic leader, instead of this islamist.

[4X4Driver]

He is prime minister, not president. Presidents stay for 5 years only, but PM Tayyip can stay as long as he wants. He would stay longer after 2012 if he doesnt screw economy.

Not "as long as he wants", but "as long as he gets re elected". This move definetelly will boost his popularity among his supporters and +... and will cover all his political/economical fvck ups. Next general elections in 2012 and hopefully popularity of this move will ware out untill then.

[kvk1]

This move definetelly will boost his popularity among his supporters and +... and will cover all his political/economical fvck ups.

I don't think it's that bad.

Once people start losing their jobs and find themselves in positions where they can't afford to send their kids to universities or even feed themselves they're not going to give a damn about Israel.

But they sure as hell will remember how the PM told everybody Turkey wouldn't be effected by the economic crisis and that they were immune or something. And they're going to hold him accountable among many things.

[4X4Driver]

I don't think it's that bad.

Once people start losing their jobs and find themselves in positions where they can't afford to send their kids to universities or even feed themselves they're not going to give a damn about Israel.

But they sure as hell will remember how the PM told everybody Turkey wouldn't be effected by the economic crisis and that they were immune or something. And they're going to hold him accountable among many things.

It'll be a boost at least for the local elections in March..we were hoping that he'd loose a lot there and decide for the early general elections..before all this though..while the economy and everything else was against him.

[1curious]

What a bizarre scene...I don't recall Peres speaking so aggressively and loudly..I don't recall any PM overreaching in public like Erdogan...he took notes during Peres's talk and was clearly upset that his time was much shorter. Looked like a calculated show to me.
Bizarre!

[Moledet]

What a bizarre scene...I don't recall Peres speaking so aggressively and loudly..I don't recall any PM overreaching in public like Erdogan...he took notes during Peres's talk and was clearly upset that his time was much shorter. Looked like a calculated show to me.
Bizarre!
There were 2 speakers for the Palestinian side, so naturally if you have two people each will get less time.
Peres was too emotional and you can see his age does effect him, too bad Nethanyau is so busy with the elections he would have made a better job.

[ting]

The moderator was a total idiot. You don`t moderate world leaders like that. Erdogan was IMHO forced to respond since some of Peres ramblings were directed at him. You don`t interupt a world leader like that because it`s dinner time:cantbeli:

[Mr.Flint]

There were 2 speakers for the Palestinian side, so naturally if you have two people each will get less time.
Peres was too emotional and you can see his age does effect him, too bad Nethanyau is so busy with the elections he would have made a better job.
Bibi was at Davos actually...


The moderator was a total idiot. You don`t moderate world leaders like that. Erdogan was IMHO forced to respond since some of Peres ramblings were directed at him. You don`t interupt a world leader like that because it`s dinner time:cantbeli:
Funny that he is an idiot for actually trying to moderate....
Arent you letting your bias too much free rein?

[ting]

Bibi was at Davos actually...


Funny that he is an idiot for actually trying to moderate....
Arent you letting your bias too much free rein?

Just enough Bias thank you. You can interupt your kids by cutting them off like that if they have to come to the dinner table, not world leaders discussing life and death.

[Moledet]

Just enough Bias thank you. You can interupt your kids by cutting them off like that if they have to come to the dinner table, not world leaders discussing life and death.
It wasn't a discussion, it was just each side giving its opinion. Erdogan attacked Israel and Peres instead of attacking Turkey attacked Erdogan.

[ting]

It wasn't a discussion, it was just each side giving its opinion. Erdogan attacked Israel and Peres instead of attacking Turkey attacked Erdogan.

Yep, and did you notice that none of the speeches really talked much about that the moderator wanted? It was a silly "debate" and the organizer deserves a good :backhand:.

[Parx400]

Nethanyau is a much better speaker in general. He also has a much better way of connecting with the American public thanks to his Education here. His English is so "americanized" you would never know he wasn't from here.


There were 2 speakers for the Palestinian side, so naturally if you have two people each will get less time.
Peres was too emotional and you can see his age does effect him, too bad Nethanyau is so busy with the elections he would have made a better job.

[yond]

The moderator was a total idiot. You don`t moderate world leaders like that. Erdogan was IMHO forced to respond since some of Peres ramblings were directed at him. You don`t interupt a world leader like that because it`s dinner time:cantbeli:

All had time to express their opinion including Erdogan. The debate was over and therefore they shouldn't have let Erdogan speak further, and what if everyone of them wanted to respond? than should it go on and on? no.
Erdogan had his time of speech exactly like Peres had his time, there's no need to respond to everything that anyone says.

[morten]

The moderator tried to stop PM Erdogan with the words: "...we really do need get people to dinner..."

What is more important ? The dinner or maybe an ongoing discussion (in which President Peres maybe also responds) about one of the most serious issues of world politics ?

Concerning the speech of President Peres i have to say that on one side i can understand his rage about the suffering of the Israeli citizens, but on the other side the speech was in my eyes self-righteous and simple.

Maybe Erdogan (whom i dislike with his policy) was driven by domestic reasons but nevertheless i can not deny that his reaction is partly understandable.

What concerns me the most is that our good relations to Israel will suffer...but if we need to be silent to remain in a close relationship with Israel and we have to sacrifice the truth i think i is not worth it since every friendship is based on the keystones of trust and honesty.

And friends should be able to tell each-other about the others wrongdoings. In this regards i just can say that our Israeli friends may critize the form of complain but not the content.

[Snoshi]

What concerns me the most is that our good relations to Israel will suffer...but if we need to be silent to remain in a close relationship with Israel and we have to sacrifice the truth i think i is not worth it since every friendship is based on the keystones of trust and honesty.

And friends should be able to tell each-other about the others wrongdoings. In this regards i just can say that our Israeli friends may critize the form of complain but not the content.

What truth and honesty? Edrogans ramblings are ridiculous...

And this is not critique against Israel.. Its arrogant behaviour...

[Snoshi]

Peres had asked Erdogan directly at Davos: "What would you do if you were to have in Istanbul every night a hundred rockets?"

Erdogan had responded strongly to Peres's repeated question to the panel of what they would do in Israel's position.

"President Peres you are older than me and your voice is very loud. The reason for you raising your voice is the psychology of guilt. I will not raise my voice that much, you should know that. When it comes to killing you know very well how to kill. I know very well how you hit and killed children on the beaches," he said during the panel discussion.
Fking pathetic! I really hope that ties with Turkey especially in military cooperation will be minimized until Erdogan resigns.. Also i hope that Israel will not attend any meetings or negotiations where Turkey will be meditating.
I understand he have to say something about Gaza.. But this?

[RoyB]

Fvcking disgraceful for Turkey, but it seems he got supporters:

Turkish PM returns to hero's welcome after Gaza row

Thousands of people waving Turkish and Palestinian flags gather at Istanbul airport to greet Erdogan after he stormed out of heated debate on Israeli offensive at World Economic Forum in Davos. Turkey's state-run news agency says President Peres apologized to Erdogan after debate
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3664229,00.html

[yond]

The moderator tried to stop PM Erdogan with the words: "...we really do need get people to dinner..."

What is more important ? The dinner or maybe an ongoing discussion (in which President Peres maybe also responds) about one of the most serious issues of world politics ?

Concerning the speech of President Peres i have to say that on one side i can understand his rage about the suffering of the Israeli citizens, but on the other side the speech was in my eyes self-righteous and simple.

Maybe Erdogan (whom i dislike with his policy) was driven by domestic reasons but nevertheless i can not deny that his reaction is partly understandable.

I agree with you that it's one of the most serious issues of world politics, but this debate, like any other, has an end. And that debate ended after each and every one of them spoke. Yes, it's an interesting subject; Yes, I would like to hear Erdogan and Peres talking further about it, but the debate was time limited and it should be respected as they all knew it since the beginning.

The debate was suppose to end at some point and I'm sure that one of them would be offended no matter when it would end, so the moderator decided to stop it before dinner, BIG DEAL... :|

Peres not only expressed the suffering of the Israelis, he was "attacked" by both Erdogan and Mossah so he was a bit anxious and raise his voice while explaining the situation from the Israeli view and understanding, and kept it simple without confusing the listeners.

Erdogan's actions to me are not understandable because, like I said, it was known that they wouldn't have as much time to speak as they want, and the fact that he's a PM doesn't mean that all should change their schedule; so no, he shouldn't have stormed out like that, making this huge show.

[chris450]

the American Jewish Comittee issued an announcement on the incident


AJC Denounces Turkish Prime Minister’s Shameful Outburst at Davos

January 29, 2009 – New York – AJC called today’s vicious verbal assault on Israeli President Shimon Peres by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan “a public disgrace that may well encourage further outrages against Israel and Jews.”

“When it comes to killing, you know well how to kill,” Erdogan yelled at Peres, a recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, during a panel on Gaza at the World Economic Forum in Davos. Erdogan then stormed off the stage.

“Prime Minister Erdogan’s tantrum at Davos throws gasoline on the fire of surging anti-Semitism,” said AJC Executive Director David A. Harris. “Erdogan’s unjustified remarks and disrespect of Israel’s president are yet another demonstration of how criticism of Israel is becoming increasingly virulent.”

AJC also was stunned to see Erdogan quote with approval the obscure writings of a Jew turned anti-Semite, a former Israeli citizen named Gilad Atzmon, who has said that “the Jewish state is the ultimate threat to humanity and our notion of humanism.”

“When the author of such ravings is quoted by the prime minister of a democratic country, we must seriously ask ourselves where reason ends and hatred begins,” Harris said.

“The relationship between Turkey and Israel is a vital one that has enjoyed the support of American Jews,” Harris continued. “But we cannot remain silent in the face of such appalling rhetorical denunciations of Israel, particularly when there has been a worrying surge of anti-Semitism in Turkey in recent weeks.”

In a letter to Erdogan last week, AJC and four other American Jewish organizations expressed profound concern over the current wave of anti-Semitic manifestations in Turkey
http://www.ajc.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=ijITI2PHKoG&b=2818289&content_id={DEAA2618-A260-4FCB-A57A-94492501EC78}&notoc=1

[morten]

The debate was suppose to end at some point and I'm sure that one of them would be offended no matter when it would end, so the moderator decided to stop it before dinner, BIG DEAL...

No the "big deal" was that the moderator granted different time limits (more than 25 minutes for President Peres and 12 for PM Erdogan). Its understandable that Erdogan demanded at least time to respond.

And do not forget the personal aspect. Erdogan felt affronted by PM Olmerts lie towards him. While Olmert was visiting Ankara the Turkish PM asked PM Olmert if Israel is planing an attack against the Gaza Strip and Olmert said cleary: "NO". And the other day the Israeli troops started the offensive! Before someone starts with "Security Measures" / "Operation Security" etc. a quick question: if Israel does not trust Turkey why then all the masquerade for peace talks ? If you do not trust the broker why you went there (to Ankara)? Why you keep close military relations with such a state and its leadership? This to the question of
What truth and honesty?



But at least one question to this statement:
And this is not critique against Israel.. Its arrogant behaviour... How would you formulate critics? Bear in your mind that your counterpart constantly is not listening, is not truly honest to you and rejects your effort for help.

[Snoshi]

nd do not forget the personal aspect. Erdogan felt affronted by PM Olmerts lie towards him. While Olmert was visiting Ankara the Turkish PM asked PM Olmert if Israel is planing an attack against the Gaza Strip and Olmert said cleary: "NO". And the other day the Israeli troops started the offensive! Before someone starts with "Security Measures" / "Operation Security"
Like you said.. Security measures.. I would rather trust Satan then Edrogan..

[morten]

Like you said.. Security measures.. I would rather trust Satan then Edrogan..

Then why you go to his table ? Why you still have relations with this state?

[eugenlitwin]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/davos/7859815.stm
Turkey's PM has received a hero's welcome on his return to Istanbul after he stormed out of a debate about Gaza at the World Economic Forum in Davos.

it looks like Erdogan is biggest winner here

[yond]

No the "big deal" was that the moderator granted different time limits (more than 25 minutes for President Peres and 12 for PM Erdogan). Its understandable that Erdogan demanded at least time to respond.

And do not forget the personal aspect. Erdogan felt affronted by PM Olmerts lie towards him. While Olmert was visiting Ankara the Turkish PM asked PM Olmert if Israel is planing an attack against the Gaza Strip and Olmert said cleary: "NO". And the other day the Israeli troops started the offensive! Before someone starts with "Security Measures" / "Operation Security" etc. a quick question: if Israel does not trust Turkey why then all the masquerade for peace talks ? If you do not trust the broker why you went there (to Ankara)? Why you keep close military relations with such a state and its leadership?

As I recall Erdogan's main speech was not stopped by the moderator, and he carried his entire speech. The fact that Peres's speech was longer doesn't matter, like Erdogan had the chance to take his all speech, so did Peres.

An idiot is a PM who goes around and tell other leaders that his country is planning an attack. PM Olmert did the right thing by not telling Erdogan about the up coming attack, and I'm sure that Erdogan would have done the same thing if he was planing an attack, so as a PM he should understand it.
Erdogan is a PM in an Arab country, and he is close to Assad, and if Olmert would have told Erdogan about the attack, the "news" would probably reach Assad and then straight to Hamas's leaders in Syria.
Reasonable act by Olmert to save the chances of success of the first strike.