Iranian F-14 fighter crashes, two dead

[seruriermarshal]

Iranian F-14 fighter crashes, two dead

TEHRAN (AFP) Jun 21, 2004
An Iranian Air Force F-14 fighter plane has crashed during a training flight, killing the two crew on board, the official news agency IRNA reported Monday.
The jet, bought from the the United States prior to the 1979 Islamic revolution, crashed while it was trying to land at a base near the central city of Isfahan.

Most of Iran's commercial and military planes are of US origin, and the country has a hard time finding spare parts due to a US embargo.

The report said the crash was being investigated.

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From (http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040621123352.qir2y8ys.html)

[-=P=-]

Its really a hard lose for Iran, the Tomcat fleet is the pride of the Air Force and only the most experienced crews are allowed to fly it.

In the last 10 to 15 years there was not one lose.

[UoUo]

Its really a hard lose for Iran, the Tomcat fleet is the pride of the Air Force and only the most experienced crews are allowed to fly it.

In the last 10 to 15 years there was not one lose.

How much F-14 iran have after that?

[-=P=-]

Both pilots were killed.

The Number of Tomcats is not known, but there are 4 squadrons.

[iflu]

OMG, cant believe those tomcats (f14a, right?)sold to iran in 70s still can fly. how can they find parts....no idea...

[UoUo]

OMG, cant believe those tomcats (f14a, right?)sold to iran in 70s still can fly. how can they find parts....no idea...

You are new here....

You didn't heard about the super doper F-14 that iran have?

[Uncle Chô]

In the last 10 to 15 years there was not one lose.
I have been told a major country is retiring it's F-14s fleet... Maybe they could help? p-)

[aktarian]

OMG, cant believe those tomcats (f14a, right?)sold to iran in 70s still can fly. how can they find parts....no idea...

Black market and local production.

[MARINO]

Wow they still flicht them.

[moughoun]

And RIP to the crew

[Pandy]

****, keep good care with your equipment, you'll be scared how long they'll last. You heard about those third world countries still with the German WW2 Tiger Tanks? and those are a hell lot more older then those F-14s.

And plus, look at our B-52 Air-Wings, most of them are aging to about 40-50 years old, 20 years older then those F-14 Iran has, :D

[BlackRain]

Can't get enough information on Iranian F-14's?


Today, the IRIAF still has some 50-55 F-14s, but only about 30 of them are active at any one time.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/f14/f14_16.jpg
F-14 of the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force

Try this link: http://www.airtoaircombat.com/background.asp?id=14&bg=5

[BlackRain]

Interesting other data:

But while Iran has managed to keep at least a portion of its Western aircraft in service, the status of the vaunted Phoenix missile is still debated. Most sources indicate that none were used during the Iran-Iraq War owing to their supposed sabotage while others claim that up to 25 Iraqi planes were downed by AIM-54s before Iran exhasuted its supply in 1986. Regardless, the aircraft is still able to fire AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-9 Sidweinder missiles, and typically carries four AIM-7s and two AIM-9s for air-to-air operations. Iran is reportedly developing a domestic version of the Sparrow to replace its stock of expended missiles.

It is also believed that one or more F-14s were delivered to the Soviet Union in exchange for technical assistance. In addition, at least one Iranian F-14 aircrew was reported to have defected to the Soviet Union with their aircraft. Some believe that Soviet access to Iranian Phoenix missiles allowed the Vympel Design Bureau to develop the R-33/AA-9 Amos long-range missile that equips the MiG-31, but chief designer Gennadiy Sokolovskiy has indicated that his team never had such access. In any event, it is believed that Soviet and Russian expertise has allowed Iran to operate, maintain, and upgrade the F-14 fleet. The aircraft are reportedly being upgraded with a new Russian radar, engines, and a glass cockpit allowing them to serve until well into the 21st century. The Iranian press has further indicated that the surviving aircraft have been adapted for a heavy bombing roll, perhaps armed with air-to-surface anti-ship missiles. Some 50 to 55 are believed to remain in service, but only about 30 of these are considered airworthy at any one time.

The US has estimated the number of operational Iranian F-14s at any given time at 15 to 20, and sometimes less than 10, due to the cannibalization of other planes to keep a few flying. Iran claims a much higher number, of course, and was indeed able to assemble 25 aircraft for a flyby over Teheran on 11 February 1985. By whatever means, Iran has been able to maintain a steady supply of spare parts for its F-14s, F-4s, and F-5s in spite of the embargo. Some of these parts may have been supplied through the arms-for-hostages deal that was revealed during the Iran-Contra scandal. Other sources claim that parts may have been smuggled through collusion with Israel. Some parts are also manufactured domestically by Iranian Aircraft Industries, and Iran has even gone so far as to claim that 100% of the parts required to keep the aircraft operational can be produced domestically. Nonetheless, US intelligence places that value closer to 70%, and a number of foreign nationals have in fact been implicated in efforts to illegally smuggle aircraft components from the US to Iran. Two men were so charged in December 2000 for attempting to illegally purchase F-4, F-5, and F-14 parts and ship them to Iran by way of Singapore. A fellow named Houshang Amir Bagheri is still listed on the US Customs Most Wanted list for his attempts to acquire classified F-14 components on behalf of Iran.

Source: http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0077.shtml

[aktarian]

Interesting other data:

But while Iran has managed to keep at least a portion of its Western aircraft in service, the status of the vaunted Phoenix missile is still debated. Most sources indicate that none were used during the Iran-Iraq War owing to their supposed sabotage while others claim that up to 25 Iraqi planes were downed by AIM-54s before Iran exhasuted its supply in 1986. Regardless, the aircraft is still able to fire AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-9 Sidweinder missiles, and typically carries four AIM-7s and two AIM-9s for air-to-air operations. Iran is reportedly developing a domestic version of the Sparrow to replace its stock of expended missiles.

Phonixs were used through out the war. There were sveral instances of multiple kills (several Iraqi aircraft destroyed with one missile) with record of thre kills and one damaged, fate unknown (this was specially efective against small aircraft (MiG-21 and -23) flying in close formation. When US personelly left they managed to sabotage soem Phonixs but those were few (less than 10 IIRC).

Ever wondered why Iraqis fled when USN operated F-14s over Iraq in 1991 while they engaged other fighters?



It is also believed that one or more F-14s were delivered to the Soviet Union in exchange for technical assistance. In addition, at least one Iranian F-14 aircrew was reported to have defected to the Soviet Union with their aircraft. Some believe that Soviet access to Iranian Phoenix missiles allowed the Vympel Design Bureau to develop the R-33/AA-9 Amos long-range missile that equips the MiG-31, but chief designer Gennadiy Sokolovskiy has indicated that his team never had such access. In any event, it is believed that Soviet and Russian expertise has allowed Iran to operate, maintain, and upgrade the F-14 fleet. The aircraft are reportedly being upgraded with a new Russian radar, engines, and a glass cockpit allowing them to serve until well into the 21st century.


Complete BS. No Iranian F.14s defected to SU or were given. Sovs did get their hands on 1 F-14 which was shot down behind Iraqi lines.



The Iranian press has further indicated that the surviving aircraft have been adapted for a heavy bombing roll, perhaps armed with air-to-surface anti-ship missiles. Some 50 to 55 are believed to remain in service, but only about 30 of these are considered airworthy at any one time.

Iranians experimented with bomb armed F-14s during GW1.




The US has estimated the number of operational Iranian F-14s at any given time at 15 to 20, and sometimes less than 10, due to the cannibalization of other planes to keep a few flying. Iran claims a much higher number, of course, and was indeed able to assemble 25 aircraft for a flyby over Teheran on 11 February 1985.


US estimates were often proved wrong.




By whatever means, Iran has been able to maintain a steady supply of spare parts for its F-14s, F-4s, and F-5s in spite of the embargo. Some of these parts may have been supplied through the arms-for-hostages deal that was revealed during the Iran-Contra scandal. Other sources claim that parts may have been smuggled through collusion with Israel.


Israel was selling Iranians spares for F-4s, HAWK SAMs and other systms. There was also lot of intelligence sharing (Israeli intel enabled Iranain H-3 raid and Iranian intel enabled Israelis to destroy Osirak reactor).

Iranians got spares from other countries as well (ROK, Taiwan....).



Some parts are also manufactured domestically by Iranian Aircraft Industries, and Iran has even gone so far as to claim that 100% of the parts required to keep the aircraft operational can be produced domestically.


As far as non-electronic parts are concerned this holds merit. Electronics are different story though.


Also http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S7875 might interest some.

[A Soldier]

They have lasted because they take good care of them and don't fly them as often as the US and other nations with parts available for their aircraft.

[AFACadet]

Since they are out of AIM-54s, they are now using modified HAWK missiles in the AA role. Pictures show that they still fit under the wing.

[aktarian]

Since they are out of AIM-54s,

"Experts" are saying that for 20 or so years.... :roll:

[usa320]

To say they have 50 even is an overstatement. Latest numbers ive seen said they have in their possesion about 35, only about 15-20 of them functional.

[IDFM203]

The US has estimated the number of operational Iranian F-14s at any given time at 15 to 20, and sometimes less than 10, due to the cannibalization of other planes to keep a few flying. Iran claims a much higher number, of course, and was indeed able to assemble 25 aircraft for a flyby over Teheran on 11 February 1985.


US estimates were often proved wrong.

Perhaps, though I actually buy into this estimate here and I think based on all sorts of factors and also what’s known publicly, I think that’s a correct and plausible estimate (and I will even accept a 25 figure if that is at the high estimate)

Anyways I am writing here for you usually have different sources then me, so I ask if you don’t buy those estimates, what then do you think the "true" estimates are, or is it simply you say the U.S. ones are wrong and simply that’s it? I mean do you have a case to show how the U.S. estimates are wrong and if so do you have another estimate and of course also any sources to back it up?

I am not really debating you here in as much as I am really curious to hear another estimate that is different then what is qouted above.

Shalom :D

[-=P=-]

The estimates about how many F-14 and AIM-54 are left are nothing worth.

It is not known only think that there are 3-4 bases somewere in Iran which are equipped with AIM-54 equipped Tomcats.

[UoUo]

F-14 in generals are in the same level as F-16S or F-15E?

[Midav]

F-14 in generals are in the same level as F-16S or F-15E?

Not the F-14's Iran has. Those are pure air-air platfroms, afaik.

[UoUo]

F-14 in generals are in the same level as F-16S or F-15E?

Not the F-14's Iran has. Those are pure air-air platfroms, afaik.

ok..i see.

[AFACadet]

Since they are out of AIM-54s,

"Experts" are saying that for 20 or so years.... :roll:


That's right, they are. Go read up on the Iranian HAWK program. Those are the replacements for the Aim-54.

[aktarian]

Perhaps, though I actually buy into this estimate here and I think based on all sorts of factors and also what’s known publicly, I think that’s a correct and plausible estimate (and I will even accept a 25 figure if that is at the high estimate)

The problem with these estimates is that they are often based on prejudice (=Iranians can't maintain their planes without US help) and lack of any insider sources (IRIAF is less open than soem other AFs).



Anyways I am writing here for you usually have different sources then me, so I ask if you don’t buy those estimates, what then do you think the "true" estimates are, or is it simply you say the U.S. ones are wrong and simply that’s it?


Please note I didn't say they are wrong, I said US estimates were often proven wrong. So without any significant change of the above mentioned things I don't think this has any better base than previous ones. And it was proven previous estimates were wrong several times.



I mean do you have a case to show how the U.S. estimates are wrong and if so do you have another estimate and of course also any sources to back it up?

See US estimates IRIAF ran out of Phonixs. Not true, they were used after this was made. See US estimates IRIAF has only handfull operational planes (all 3 combat types). All 3 were often used after. Unless IRIAF became more open or US had any new sources I'd say this estimate is based on same conclusions as previous ones (the one that were proven wrong).

[aktarian]

Since they are out of AIM-54s,

"Experts" are saying that for 20 or so years.... :roll:


That's right, they are. Go read up on the Iranian HAWK program. Those are the replacements for the Aim-54.

And what do you make of claims IRIAF ran out of Phoenixs and later IrAF planes were shot down with them?

Of course sooner or later they will run out of them and woun't be operational anymore. Sooner or later such US claim will be true. tHey haven't been in past 20 years though....

[BlackRain]

Iranian AIM-54A Missiles

AIM-54A - Early Production Model
First production model for F-14A. Analog electronics, klystron tube transmitter/receiver. Liquid-cooled hydraulic and thermal-conditioning systems. Design range of 60 nm (69 mi; 111 km) was easily surpassed in testing.

OPERATIONAL NOTES
The AIM-54A was provided to the Imperial Iranian Air Force prior to the fall of the Shah in 1979. It is not believed, however, that the Iranian Air Force used Phoenix missiles in combat.

other sources...

In 1974 and 1975 the Shah of Iran had ordered some 80 F-14As as the only foreign customer for the Tomcat. The Iranian F-14s should counter the penetration and overflight of Soviet MiG-25 Foxbats over Iranian territory since the IIAF (Imperial Iranian Air Force) had no other match for the MiG-25.

Delivery of the F-14s lasted from early 1976 to July 1978 including some 270 AIM-54 Phoenix missiles.

The 80th F-14 was not delivered due to the revolution in Iran and overthrow of the Shah.

From early 1979 onwards no more spare parts were delivered to the new Islamic Republic of Iran and the Navy and Grumman technicians had to be replaced by foreign technicians.....

During the war, the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force (IRIAF) was only able to keep a mere seven to ten F-14s operational at any time. A lack of tires and brakes kept most of the F-14s on the ground. Additionally, by 1986 Iran ran out of AIM-54 missiles and from then on the only available armament were AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM-7 Sparrow missiles. Therefore the F-14 was often used in the airborne radar warning role covered sometimes by F-4Es or F-5Es.

[Khabbi]

RIP

[aktarian]

OPERATIONAL NOTES
The AIM-54A was provided to the Imperial Iranian Air Force prior to the fall of the Shah in 1979. It is not believed, however, that the Iranian Air Force used Phoenix missiles in combat.


Between 1982 and 1986 Iranian Tomcats were to see use in a series of slowly-developing campaigns: mainly tasked with patrolling the skies over objects vital for the survival of Iranian regime and economy, like Tehran, or the Khark Island. Most of these patrols were supported by the fleet of Boeing 707-3J9C tankers, and quite some lasted as long as 10 hours, thanks to up to four successfive in-flight refuellings. Time and again they were involved in new air battles, and have scored heavily, but their main role was that of intimidating the Iraqi Air Force: scared by previous heavy losses in battles against Iranian F-14s, the Iraqis were avoiding any engagement with them, so that the sole presence of a Tomcat over the target area was enough to force hundreds of Iraqi formations to abort their attacks. Because of this, as well as because of the murderous precision and effectiveness of the Tomcat's AWG-9 weapons system and AIM-54A Phoenix long-range air-to-air missiles, it can be concluded that there was never before an air defence system that proved as effective in a war - especially not over such a lengthy period of time.

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_212.shtml





From early 1979 onwards no more spare parts were delivered to the new Islamic Republic of Iran and the Navy and Grumman technicians had to be replaced by foreign technicians.....



The Tanker War was also the dominant feature in the air war during 1985; a year in which the IRIAF was again reinforced by more clandestine deliveries of spare parts and weapons from the US and Israel – a tendency which was to increase in 1986 and 1987.



For the rest of 1986, and until the Spring of 1988, the IRIAF’s efficiency in air defense constantly increased, as not only new or repaired weapons, but also new and more innovative tactical methods were brought to bear. For example, the Iranians would integrate – loosely – their SAM sites and interceptors to create true “killing fields,” to which dozens of Iraqi planes would be lost (which in turn caused reports in the West, about the IRIAF using F-14s as “mini-AWACS”). The IrAF reacted by increasing the sophistication of its equipment, incorporating a massive use of modern ECM pods, chaff, ARMs – and chemical weapons.



Deemed "written off" by all Western sources, Iranian fleet of F-14As remained fully operational and played the most prominent role in the air defense of strategically important installations during all eight years of the air war between Iraq and Iran. The type not only scored dozens of kills, but was even more influential due to its sheer firepower: the Iraqis so feared the F-14 and its AIM-54A missiles that their pilots were instructed to avoid engagements with Tomcats at any price. Therefore, almost 60% of engagements between Iranian F-14s and Iraqi aircraft ended without even a bullet being fired – but with Iraqis retreating at high speed. Those which failed to recognize the threat, or decided to continue, usually suffered extremely heavy losses as Iranian Tomcats scored repeatedly using all available weapons. Never before in the history of modern air warfare could any interceptor claim such effectiveness

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_205.shtml




During the war, the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force (IRIAF) was only able to keep a mere seven to ten F-14s operational at any time. A lack of tires and brakes kept most of the F-14s on the ground. Additionally, by 1986 Iran ran out of AIM-54 missiles and from then on the only available armament were AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM-7 Sparrow missiles. Therefore the F-14 was often used in the airborne radar warning role covered sometimes by F-4Es or F-5Es.

Wow, and those mere 7-10 were able to scare Iraqis away so amyn times. :roll:

And not only that, they were able to shoot down IrAF planes with missiles they ran out of 2 years ago. :roll:

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_210.shtml

[Moledet]

I can't understand why you argue on the amount of Tomcats that Iran has, I mean, what chance do they have vs. any series western air force?

[aktarian]

I can't understand why you argue on the amount of Tomcats that Iran has, I mean, what chance do they have vs. any series western air force?

Isn't this what Saddam said in 1980?

[OB Kenobi]

I can't understand why you argue on the amount of Tomcats that Iran has, I mean, what chance do they have vs. any series western air force?

Airframes only matter so much at this point, without updated avionics and modern missiles those things are about as useful against a western airforce as a Me-109 today.

They're probably better off converting them into suicide missiles the way Saddam was supposedly doing with his Mig-21s. You could strap on a pretty big WMD payload on them on and fly them under the radar into Israel.

[Kilgor]

yeah... allah help us if they ever got a bomb small enough to fit on one of those things

[Midav]

I can't understand why you argue on the amount of Tomcats that Iran has, I mean, what chance do they have vs. any series western air force?

Isn't this what Saddam said in 1980?

rofl

True, yet Saddam's AF also didn't do much in 1991.

What would worry me more are the Mig-29's of the Iranian AF.

[Moledet]

I can't understand why you argue on the amount of Tomcats that Iran has, I mean, what chance do they have vs. any series western air force?

Isn't this what Saddam said in 1980?
When was Saddam western?

[Moledet]

I can't understand why you argue on the amount of Tomcats that Iran has, I mean, what chance do they have vs. any series western air force?

Airframes only matter so much at this point, without updated avionics and modern missiles those things are about as useful against a western airforce as a Me-109 today.

They're probably better off converting them into suicide missiles the way Saddam was supposedly doing with his Mig-21s. You could strap on a pretty big WMD payload on them on and fly them under the radar into Israel.
I don't think that they can enter Israel, don't forget the except of very advanced radars we have 5 army satelites in space and our air force always patrol our boarders.

[UoUo]

I can't understand why you argue on the amount of Tomcats that Iran has, I mean, what chance do they have vs. any series western air force?

Airframes only matter so much at this point, without updated avionics and modern missiles those things are about as useful against a western airforce as a Me-109 today.

They're probably better off converting them into suicide missiles the way Saddam was supposedly doing with his Mig-21s. You could strap on a pretty big WMD payload on them on and fly them under the radar into Israel.

Yeah..the mig-21 can reach Israel? hm..i find that hard to beleive.

[Midav]

Yeah..the mig-21 can reach Israel? hm..i find that hard to beleive.

That's that new Mig-21. It's called the "one way express". ;)

[Merik]

What a lot of people dont think of is the fact that the Iranians are not so hard on the aircraft since they dont land on carriers. Carrier landing aircraft are built like a steel brick because they take such a beating, not in the case of these 'cats however.

[BlackRain]

We used to have a name for the venerable Tomcat.

"The Flying Aluminum Cloud" due to its rather large radar cross section.

[Merik]

We used to have a name for the venerable Tomcat.

"The Flying Aluminum Cloud" due to its rather large radar cross section.


Apply that name to the Iranians tactics during the Iran-Iraq war and you've got it made. They basically used it as thier own little AWACS since the damn cross section is so large and let the F-4's that were tagging along do all the dirty work.

RIP to the crew

[rob]

RIP

[aktarian]

I can't understand why you argue on the amount of Tomcats that Iran has, I mean, what chance do they have vs. any series western air force?

Isn't this what Saddam said in 1980?
When was Saddam western?

It wasn't. But he spoke with same confidence as people here.

[aktarian]

We used to have a name for the venerable Tomcat.

"The Flying Aluminum Cloud" due to its rather large radar cross section.


Apply that name to the Iranians tactics during the Iran-Iraq war and you've got it made. They basically used it as thier own little AWACS since the damn cross section is so large and let the F-4's that were tagging along do all the dirty work.

Guess you didn't read my post about IRIAF F-14 operations....

[Moledet]

We used to have a name for the venerable Tomcat.

"The Flying Aluminum Cloud" due to its rather large radar cross section.


Apply that name to the Iranians tactics during the Iran-Iraq war and you've got it made. They basically used it as thier own little AWACS since the damn cross section is so large and let the F-4's that were tagging along do all the dirty work.

Guess you didn't read my post about IRIAF F-14 operations....
No offense but dog fights vs. arabian armies are not so hard, our rate is 1-7 (every IAF jet takes down 7 arabian jets) in dog fights vs. the arabs.

[aktarian]

We used to have a name for the venerable Tomcat.

"The Flying Aluminum Cloud" due to its rather large radar cross section.


Apply that name to the Iranians tactics during the Iran-Iraq war and you've got it made. They basically used it as thier own little AWACS since the damn cross section is so large and let the F-4's that were tagging along do all the dirty work.

Guess you didn't read my post about IRIAF F-14 operations....
No offense but dog fights vs. arabian armies are not so hard, our rate is 1-7 (every IAF jet takes down 7 arabian jets) in dog fights vs. the arabs.

I was talking about IRIAF F-14 doctrine, not Arab performance in the air.

[aktarian]

DP, sorry.

[cold0]

BlackRain wrote:
We used to have a name for the venerable Tomcat.

"The Flying Aluminum Cloud" due to its rather large radar cross section.



Apply that name to the Iranians tactics during the Iran-Iraq war and you've got it made. They basically used it as thier own little AWACS since the damn cross section is so large and let the F-4's that were tagging along do all the dirty work.

You are dead wrong about this point; the F-14 performed astounishing well against the IrAF, expecially if you consider that the Iranians didn't received many spare part even during the Iran-Contras "affaire". They scored more than 100 confirmed kills and loss only 3 Tomcats in air-to-air combat (plus 3 for unknowed caused, in the IRIAF version) and 4 killed by fraticide Hawks (the SAM).
Actually tha Hawk integration on the F-14 platform doesn't seem to work very well and the whole project seems to be stopped, anyway the IRIAF has a limited number of Phoenix stored and the real number of F-14s in service is 32, while other 32 are stored. The Iranian are trying to maintaing a credible force of their precious Tomcats in flight condition, storing the less preserved F-14 as spare parts.

See these book and site for more infos:

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_212.shtml

about the IRIAF F-14s

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_210.shtml

the total victories of IRIAF during the IPGW

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_205.shtml

about the Persian Gulf War

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S7875~per=36

the new Osprey book about the IRIAF F-14s

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S6585~per=36

Another book on the subject:Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat

and..

http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php

Iran- Iraq War in the air 1980-88.

Yes, ...Flying Aluminum Cloud :bash:

[IDFM203]

Perhaps, though I actually buy into this estimate here and I think based on all sorts of factors and also what’s known publicly, I think that’s a correct and plausible estimate (and I will even accept a 25 figure if that is at the high estimate)

The problem with these estimates is that they are often based on prejudice (=Iranians can't maintain their planes without US help) and lack of any insider sources (IRIAF is less open than soem other AFs).



Anyways I am writing here for you usually have different sources then me, so I ask if you don’t buy those estimates, what then do you think the "true" estimates are, or is it simply you say the U.S. ones are wrong and simply that’s it?


Please note I didn't say they are wrong, I said US estimates were often proven wrong. So without any significant change of the above mentioned things I don't think this has any better base than previous ones. And it was proven previous estimates were wrong several times.



I mean do you have a case to show how the U.S. estimates are wrong and if so do you have another estimate and of course also any sources to back it up?

See US estimates IRIAF ran out of Phonixs. Not true, they were used after this was made. See US estimates IRIAF has only handfull operational planes (all 3 combat types). All 3 were often used after. Unless IRIAF became more open or US had any new sources I'd say this estimate is based on same conclusions as previous ones (the one that were proven wrong).ok I understand what you just said and I figured you might say this, for yes I understand your high suspicion of U.S. estimates and that’s why I said this isn’t a debate here (and I am trying not to get into a debate in this thread and as such I am skipping over a lot of points written by a few posters here that I do find very questionable ;) ) and even though I actually in THIS case accept their estimates (even though I also do accept your premise of being suspicious in general of U.S. estimates), I was hoping to hear another estimate from another source and I was hoping to get that from you, I see I am not, but rather just you merely saying your suspicious of the U.S. ones, ok, but you don’t have another estimate, do you? For I think on this they got it right.

Shalom :D

[Merik]

BlackRain wrote:
We used to have a name for the venerable Tomcat.

"The Flying Aluminum Cloud" due to its rather large radar cross section.



Apply that name to the Iranians tactics during the Iran-Iraq war and you've got it made. They basically used it as thier own little AWACS since the damn cross section is so large and let the F-4's that were tagging along do all the dirty work.

You are dead wrong about this point; the F-14 performed astounishing well against the IrAF, expecially if you consider that the Iranians didn't received many spare part even during the Iran-Contras "affaire". They scored more than 100 confirmed kills and loss only 3 Tomcats in air-to-air combat (plus 3 for unknowed caused, in the IRIAF version) and 4 killed by fraticide Hawks (the SAM).
Actually tha Hawk integration on the F-14 platform doesn't seem to work very well and the whole project seems to be stopped, anyway the IRIAF has a limited number of Phoenix stored and the real number of F-14s in service is 32, while other 32 are stored. The Iranian are trying to maintaing a credible force of their precious Tomcats in flight condition, storing the less preserved F-14 as spare parts.

See these book and site for more infos:

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_212.shtml

about the IRIAF F-14s

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_210.shtml

the total victories of IRIAF during the IPGW

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_205.shtml

about the Persian Gulf War

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S7875~per=36

the new Osprey book about the IRIAF F-14s

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S6585~per=36

Another book on the subject:Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat

and..

http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php

Iran- Iraq War in the air 1980-88.

Yes, ...Flying Aluminum Cloud :bash:


How am I dead wrong. I am just telling what I have read on websites about the air war. Sheesh.