Ahmadinejad: Obama must apologize to Iran if he really wants change

[Climber]

Ahmadinejad: Obama must apologize to Iran if he really wants change http://wa-ne1.www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gif By ******* http://wa-ne1.www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gif
The new U.S. administration must apologize to Iran over past actions if it really wants to effect change, Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Wednesday.

"Those who say they want to make change, this is the change they should make: they should apologize to the Iranian nation and try to make up for their dark background and the crimes they have committed against the Iranian nation," Ahmadinejad told a rally in western Iran, broadcast live on state television.

"We welcome change but on condition that change is fundamental and on the right track," he said.
http://wa-ne1.www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gif The new administration has said Obama would break from his predecessor by pursuing direct talks with Tehran but has also warned Iran to expect more pressure if it did not meet the UN Security Council demand to halt its disputed nuclear work.

Washington and its Western allies accuse Iran of seeking to build nuclear weapons. Tehran denies the charge and refuses to give up work it insists is its sovereign right.

Ahmadinejad listed during his speech a range of "crimes" against Iran, such as trying to block what Tehran says is a peaceful nuclear power generation program, hindering Iran's development since the 1979 revolution and other actions by several administrations for more than 60 years.

Iran has in the past told Washington that it should withdraw its troops from the region.

Ahmadinejad, in his speech, said: "Who has asked them (the United States) to come and interfere in the affairs of nations?"

As well as saying Tehran wants nuclear arms, Washington accuses Iran of sponsoring "terrorists" and undermining efforts to make peace in the Middle East between Israel and Arabs.

Echoing Obama's remarks, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton signaled the administration's readiness to talk to Iran, saying Tehran had a "clear opportunity" to show the world it is willing to engage.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1059487.html

[Moledet]

At least he didn't say, "Boy, kiss my shoes".

[Climber]

At least he didn't say, "Boy, kiss my shoes".

:)

Jokes aside, Obama would do things IMHO to change lot of wrong stuff ( that's my opinion, ok?) but, I don't think he will apologize to Iran for anything.

[FunnyX]

let's see what time brings,i hope Obama make some change in mid-east...

[Dinges]

And I thought Bob Mugabe was full of it!

[ZARDOZ]

And to think they call America "Arrogant"....:roll:

[Lazy Lob]

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1707/175179290591d5fc93c2xl7.jpg

[socom6]

Obama said he would extend the "hand of friendship" if they opened up their clenched fist, well the right fist is clenched but the left hand is open. What to do?

[Climber]

Obama said he would extend the "hand of friendship" if they opened up their clenched fist, well the right fist is clenched but the left hand is open. What to do?

Wait until they open both hands?

[budgie]

This dude is out of his mind if he expects that much 'change'. Maybe he read all those silly right-wing conspiracies on mp.net and actually believes President Obama is a fellow Muslim....

[rolls]

What a load of hocus pocus crap surrounds this obama cat. Just another guy, Just another American, quite frankly i dont understand the hysteria.

In the end the poor guy will get shafted with a bunch of tough decisions, probably none with easier answers and domino outcomes. To be honest its more likely he will be ridiculed like bush at the end of his tenure, dealt a crappy hand and calling a crappy bluff. Only difference is Bush is deffinantly a stoner, no non-stoner messes up there sentences that bad.

The only 'CHANGE' ive seen so far is the decorating of the white house.. nuff said.

[kitatatsumi]

Typical.
Iranian Presidential elections coming this summer.
As we know, A-jad hardly runs the foreign policy show, so I guess its easy for him to swing for the fence, make bold accusations and tall orders. Still these guys just never cease to amaze me with the wacky stuff that comes out of thier mouths.
Nonetheless, I feel its about time this tug o' war between Iran and the US stopped. I hope Obama can find a way to make at least a bit of progress. But apparently A-jad still expects to make the US grovel first.
I would be interested to hear if the Islamic Republic of Iran felt as if it had anything it might want to apologize for as well.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Just to be safe, I think Obama should start every week with a lengthy, heartfelt apology on behalf of America to all the people of the world. Every week, he could pick another topic to apologize for, such as our hatred of all people with brown skin, our oppression of those who are non-Christian, our habit of drinking the blood of the poor, etc. It will make us friends with everybody on the "world stage" and people in the "Muslim world" will learn to love us.

[Martial]

Apologize Obama.

[kitatatsumi]

I remember a H. Rafsanjani quote from a while ago.
It went something like;
"Death to America is not a slogan, it is a vision, a policy"

Which I think is so indicative of the situation. The regime has based its policy and legitimacy almost entirely on the concept of resisting perceived American aggression. Take away the threat and the regime literally becomes irrelevant. Not that I feel the US should apologize, that is silly. But, the US extending an olive branch to Iran is probably the single greatest threat to the regime.
I could be wrong, just my two cents.

[Limeyfellow]

Just to be safe, I think Obama should start every week with a lengthy, heartfelt apology on behalf of America to all the people of the world. Every week, he could pick another topic to apologize for, such as our hatred of all people with brown skin, our oppression of those who are non-Christian, our habit of drinking the blood of the poor, etc. It will make us friends with everybody on the "world stage" and people in the "Muslim world" will learn to love us.


I doubt that could be done in 8 years. I still don't see an apology going to Iran. Sure we helped a dictator overthrow the government and supported him in his wars and subjugation of his own people and got mad when he got overthrown, that we been cracking down on Iran ever since, but until they lessen on the influence on the nutjobs there going to be big troubles. Unfortunately saying you want to overthrow them, calling the Iranians the source of all the world's evil and ills and sabre rattling tends to have the effect of putting the religious leaders more into power and give them more support from the locals. We probably do better with an approach more like post Vietnam War-era dealings.

[Hollis]

I guess the no preconditions did not work. Now there are preconditions.

[commanding]

I remember a H. Rafsanjani quote from a while ago.
It went something like;
"Death to America is not a slogan, it is a vision, a policy"

Which I think is so indicative of the situation. The regime has based its policy and legitimacy almost entirely on the concept of resisting perceived American aggression. Take away the threat and the regime literally becomes irrelevant. Not that I feel the US should apologize, that is silly. But, the US extending an olive branch to Iran is probably the single greatest threat to the regime.
I could be wrong, just my two cents.

problem is, that Iran wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth if they are to be believed. i don't mind the US saying heh, let's be friends. But behind our backs we need to have the biggest meanest club in the world and if the son of a b1itch twitches the wrong way, clobber the sh1t out of him.
Teddy Roosevelt said "speak softly but carry a big stick" and that is my view also. Israel is not only our friend but a bastion of liberty, democracy, and freedom in the region and we are not going to let some two bit wacko from Iran, harm Israel. Nor any other country in the region, including Iraq. We have too much blood and treasure invested in the area. Our national security depends upon that.
Final deal is that ALL countries have the right to defend themselves and their national security. That is what governments do.
if the jerk wants some apology, he can place his head squarely between his legs and kiss his own arse in front of the entire world.
blunt enough?
PS. That all being said, most of the folks from Iran are great folks, just their leaders really are giant wieners.

[toad]

I will send an email to Prez Obama and have him apologize to the people of Italy on his first diplomatic trip there. There was absolutely no excuse for my behavior in Naples, as part of the 6th fleet.... I mean c'mon I embarrased my whole country with my actions.

Maybe he could just apologize to the Italian Ambassador, in a note or something.

[kitatatsumi]

Agreed on all counts.
But I think there is merit in the suggestion that taking a less confrontational approach to Iran could be the better way to erode the regime's control without ever spilling a drop of (our or Israel's) blood.
I mean as far as I know, the Iranian people have had enough of the regime, no stick necessary.
Wouldn't that be the best way to assure our long-term security and the security of our allies?
...just sayin'

[helomech]

@Commanding

I don't think anyone here is saying the citizens of Iran are ****ed up,it's their leadership;A-jad needs to wipe the foam from his piehole and relax,have a BLT and a Coke or something but relax

Oh,I don't see the Obaminator throwing out an apology either and A-jad shouldn't wait for it either

[California Joe]

Pretty sure this douchebag can demand all he wants but it doesn't mean diplomacy extends that far. It must be easier to be a politician there. Every once in a while you make some completely off the wall challenge to the Great Satan and then when you don't get vaporised you get to claim you're a hero.

Hey maybe the Pope could make Ahmadinejad a Bishop too, he holds a lot of the same views as that other douche....

[PipeHittingInfidel]

lol did you not look into this guys past???
Fact<<<>>>> obama was registered at an indonesian state ran school under the muslim religion, not christion or nopreferance but muslim<<<>>>FACT.


This dude is out of his mind if he expects that much 'change'. Maybe he read all those silly right-wing conspiracies on mp.net and actually believes President Obama is a fellow Muslim....

[California Joe]

Oh for f*ckssakes.

Fact: I didn't have a say in where I went to Kindergarten. You?

Fact: I was raised Catholic, my wife was raised Methodist. I sent my kids to a Baptist school for a couple of years.

It's grade school not AIDS.

[LineDoggie]

This dude is out of his mind if he expects that much 'change'. Maybe he read all those silly right-wing conspiracies on mp.net and actually believes President Obama is a fellow Muslim....
Those Conspiracy's that were started by wacko Left Wing Hillary supporter, Phillip Berg, a former gubernatorial and senatorial candidate, former chair of the Democratic Party in Montgomery (PA) County, former member of the Democratic State Committee, and former Deputy Attorney General of Pennsylvania

That Right wing Nut?

[LineDoggie]

Just to be safe, I think Obama should start every week with a lengthy, heartfelt apology on behalf of America to all the people of the world. Every week, he could pick another topic to apologize for, such as our hatred of all people with brown skin, our oppression of those who are non-Christian, our habit of drinking the blood of the poor, etc. It will make us friends with everybody on the "world stage" and people in the "Muslim world" will learn to love us.


Dont forget, first we must apologize to South and Central America for eating their Children....

[commanding]

Agreed on all counts.
But I think there is merit in the suggestion that taking a less confrontational approach to Iran could be the better way to erode the regime's control without ever spilling a drop of (our or Israel's) blood.
I mean as far as I know, the Iranian people have had enough of the regime, no stick necessary.
Wouldn't that be the best way to assure our long-term security and the security of our allies?
...just sayin'

that is the impressions I have also, the Iranian people have had enough of the current regime. Most Iranians are well educated, and politically astute. Generally most people in the world are alike in their goals of wanting peace, and seeing their children and grandchildren grow up in peace and prosperity.

[commanding]

@Commanding

I don't think anyone here is saying the citizens of Iran are ****ed up,it's their leadership;A-jad needs to wipe the foam from his piehole and relax,have a BLT and a Coke or something but relax

Oh,I don't see the Obaminator throwing out an apology either and A-jad shouldn't wait for it either

"A-jad needs to wipe the foam from his piehole " LOL! great! somebody get the guy a six pack of Bud.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

But I think there is merit in the suggestion that taking a less confrontational approach to Iran could be the better way to erode the regime's control without ever spilling a drop of (our or Israel's) blood.

Well, the problem here is that Iran isn't just sitting there playing with it's Xbox and keeping quiet. They have an active nuclear program, which it's operating outside all international agreements - and in violation of the UN's directives. We're content to completely ignore them and let them do whatever the hell they want...but there are certain things that can't be ignored.

[Jobu]

Maybe Obama can go on Iranian TV now and apologize for our "mistakes" in fighting radical Islam and for all too often being dictators.

[matthew.manhorn]

Hello Obama, I want to play a game, AIPAC or Iran. Live or die, make your choice.

[LineDoggie]

Hello Obama, I want to play a game, AIPAC or Iran. Live or die, make your choice.


Ahhh, yes, it be the Ebil Joos who control the president, right? :roll:

[Gunbird]

that is the impressions I have also, the Iranian people have had enough of the current regime. Most Iranians are well educated, and politically astute. Generally most people in the world are alike in their goals of wanting peace, and seeing their children and grandchildren grow up in peace and prosperity.

Most of anyone are not well educated. Literacy in Iran is 77%, which is nothing to write home about. That's not a dig, that just means there is a lot more work to do.

While most people in the world want peace, one of the mistaken assumptions of popular liberalism is that everyone has the same idea on how to achieve it.

[apadana]

Well some you nee to look at the history behind this comment. Most Iranians still have negative views of American politicians because of what they did to Iran. The CIA orchestrated a coup against the Democratic government of Dr. Mosadagh and overthrew him in exchange for a dictator named Reza Phalavi or simply known as the Shah in the 50’s. The US did this in order to buy cheap oil from Iran. And they turned a blind eye on Shahs human right abuses. In fact the CIA trained Shah secret police who tortured innocent people. And one day in the 70’s Jimmy Carters plane landed in Tehran and he had dinner with the Shah where he praised the shah for protecting human rights even though he and everybody else in Iran and the world knew it was the exact opposite. There were well over 50k Americans in Iran those days. The US persuaded the shah to pass a law so that all Americans living in Iran wouldn’t have to abide by the same laws that Iranian citizens had to abide by, In other words Americans had more rights and freedom than Iranians inside their own country . There is a lot more injustices committed by American politics that I could list here but it would take me days . I am not saying Ahmadinejad should ask Obama for an apology but rather America should have apologized for all their mistakes that hurt ordinary Iranians a long time ago.

[LineDoggie]

Was that the same Shah who had been ruler of Iran since 1941?

[apadana]

Was that the same Shah who had been ruler of Iran since 1941?
Yes Shah and his dad ruled Iran for many years.

Shahs dad was a national hero . At the end of his years as ruler he was becoming less favorable to the West so the United States and the British also overthrew his dad and threw him in exile in exchange for his younger son was just a teen when he became the king of Iran. They did this because his son who is and was known as the shah was simple minded and more easily persuadable compared to his dad. It still confuses how he could live with the fact the he took his dads position and let him go into exile and die .
Ahmadinejad should thank the United States because if it wasn’t because of their dark policy towards Iran the Islamic revolution would of never happened and Iran would have kept the Democracy that Mosadagh broght to Iran . But instead the US wrongfully accused Mosadagh of being a communist so that they could get cheap oil from the Shah.

[California Joe]

Hello Obama, I want to play a game, AIPAC or Iran. Live or die, make your choice.

You know, if I change the last 2 letters of your username to "le" you have the best ToF polesmoking username evah.

[California Joe]

Well some you nee to look at the history behind this comment. Most Iranians still have negative views of American politicians because of what they did to Iran. The CIA orchestrated a coup against the Democratic government of Dr. Mosadagh and overthrew him in exchange for a dictator named Reza Phalavi or simply known as the Shah in the 50’s. The US did this in order to buy cheap oil from Iran. And they turned a blind eye on Shahs human right abuses. In fact the CIA trained Shah secret police who tortured innocent people. And one day in the 70’s Jimmy Carters plane landed in Tehran and he had dinner with the Shah where he praised the shah for protecting human rights even though he and everybody else in Iran and the world knew it was the exact opposite. There were well over 50k Americans in Iran those days. The US persuaded the shah to pass a law so that all Americans living in Iran wouldn’t have to abide by the same laws that Iranian citizens had to abide by, In other words Americans had more rights and freedom than Iranians inside their own country . There is a lot more injustices committed by American politics that I could list here but it would take me days . I am not saying Ahmadinejad should ask Obama for an apology but rather America should have apologized for all their mistakes that hurt ordinary Iranians a long time ago.

Awwwwwwwww you poor victim. How old are you anyway? Have a hard time under the Shah did you? I'm sorry. There. Now can that insane cocks*cker that runs your country stop telling everyone the Jews and the US all need to die in a large Satanic bonfire? Thanks. Appreciate the help.

[Midav]

Not saying it was right, but the cold war was rather hot at the time and the Eisenhower admin was looking for a strategic advantage besides the oil.

[California Joe]

Oh gee, there you go injecting historical context into the issue. Have you gone mad?

[Midav]

Oh gee, there you go injecting historical context into the issue. Have you gone mad?

Sorry. I'll go to my room without supper tonight.

[willytee]

Yes Shah and his dad ruled Iran for many years.

Shahs dad was a national hero . At the end of his years as ruler he was becoming less favorable to the West so the United States and the British also overthrew his dad and threw him in exile in exchange for his younger son was just a teen when he became the king of Iran. They did this because his son who is and was known as the shah was simple minded and more easily persuadable compared to his dad. It still confuses how he could live with the fact the he took his dads position and let him go into exile and die .
Ahmadinejad should thank the United States because if it wasn’t because of their dark policy towards Iran the Islamic revolution would of never happened and Iran would have kept the Democracy that Mosadagh broght to Iran . But instead the US wrongfully accused Mosadagh of being a communist so that they could get cheap oil from the Shah.

PROOF or it did not happen or exist. I dont even care if you have photoshopped proof.. i want proof.

[LineDoggie]

Yes Shah and his dad ruled Iran for many years. After coming to power in his own Coup.....


Shahs dad was a national hero . At the end of his years as ruler he was becoming less favorable to the West so the United States and the British also overthrew his dad and threw him in exile in exchange for his younger son was just a teen when he became the king of Iran. Gee, you think in the middle of a World War inviting the Nazi's to send you troops might Perturb the Allies? Ya think? Funny also that the Soviet Union is considered the "West" since they invaded at the same time..... Most people then wouldnt like a Luftwaffe base near their Lines of supply, your mileage may differ



But instead the US wrongfully accused Mosadagh of being a communist so that they could get cheap oil from the Shah.Mossadegh nationalized the Oil Industry, shutting out Private Oil Corporation's such as AIOC, As we've seen seizing private property is something Communists/Socialists have regularly done, part and parcel of their Dogma.

[commanding]

Most of anyone are not well educated. Literacy in Iran is 77%, which is nothing to write home about. That's not a dig, that just means there is a lot more work to do.

While most people in the world want peace, one of the mistaken assumptions of popular liberalism is that everyone has the same idea on how to achieve it.

You know what they say about statistics? Anyway, 77% ain't bad. I will tell you that I run into Iranians who have moved to the USA all the time. There is a great photographer not two miles from here who is Iranian and he loves to tell stories of how he learned to be a photog in Iran. Also my now deceased father, had serious heart attacks and all (from a life of eating greasy food) and the BEST heart surgeon that did the triple bypass on my father which was successful, was an Iranian who had come here to practice medicine. And that was during the Carter years when the idiot students stormed the American embassy and took all the hostages and held them captive for a year. My point being that many many Iranians, are highly intelligent, successful (given the chance in a free country) and have the intellect to be somebody in todays world....a far cry from the poor folks in Afghanistan who have been pushed back into the stone age by the Taliban.

[budgie]

Those Conspiracy's that were started by wacko Left Wing Hillary supporter, Phillip Berg, a former gubernatorial and senatorial candidate, former chair of the Democratic Party in Montgomery (PA) County, former member of the Democratic State Committee, and former Deputy Attorney General of Pennsylvania

That Right wing Nut?

wrong again: the rumour was attributed to the Clinton campaign by several Right wing 'news' programs on TV and radio as well as publications on the net. It was attempt to smear both - one with the charge of backstabbing, the other with Islamism:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200701200003


None of the four radio or television hosts cited any evidence that Clinton was responsible for promoting the madrassa story, beyond the InsightMag.com article, which cited no one by name. On December 13, Jason Zengerle, editor of The Plank, the weblog of The New Republic, predicted that Republicans would "launch a savage and despicable whispering campaign against the guy (Barack Hussein Obama, etc.) and then blame it all on Hillary." Zengerle responded to the InsightMag.com article on January 18:

The Clinton campaign denounced the smear immediately. Plenty of people at mp.net on the other hand choose to go on believing it.

Here's a fact: they issued a joint statement early on in the campaign condemming the rumour. Thereafter it lived on only in the imaginations of net trolls that divide their time between Resch's Pilsener, cruising Stormfront and sometimes come wandering over here.

[DetailedEntrails]

wrong again: the rumour was attributed to the Clinton campaign by several Right wing 'news' programs on TV and radio as well as publications on the net. It was attempt to smear both - one with the charge of backstabbing, the other with Islamism:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200701200003



The Clinton campaign denounced the smear immediately. Plenty of people at mp.net on the other hand choose to go on believing it.

Here's a fact: they issued a joint statement early on in the campaign condemming the rumour. Thereafter it lived on only in the imaginations of net trolls that divide their time between Resch's Pilsener, cruising Stormfront and sometimes come wandering over here.

Hey man dont bash stormfront. Where else can i get such epic lulz and such fertile trolling grounds.

[apadana]

Awwwwwwwww you poor victim. How old are you anyway? Have a hard time under the Shah did you? I'm sorry. There. Now can that insane cocks*cker that runs your country stop telling everyone the Jews and the US all need to die in a large Satanic bonfire? Thanks. Appreciate the help.

I don’t need to tell you my age in order to explain something that’s occurred in the past. Some people don’t understand that decisions made in the 50’s and even before have shaped what we have today and might have tomorrow . I know a lot of people who were tortured in by Shahs secret police. And we all know Savak was trained by the CIA . What do you think those people who were tortured are going to tell their kids ? And those kids will tell their kids. It doesn’t matter how long ago the injustice occurred , what matters is people admitting their mistakes. Nations have apologized for dark acts in the past , its not new. But the United States has never apologized to the Iranian people. I don’t care about the Iranian government because they don’t represent the people but the US should directly apologize to the Iranian people because there is still a lot of distrust left.

No need to thank me because I didn’t help you in any shape or form.

[apadana]

PROOF or it did not happen or exist. I dont even care if you have photoshopped proof.. i want proof.

It called GOOGLE . or better yet go pick up a book at your local library. I am not here to serve you .

[LaoSexMachine]

I don’t need to tell you my age in order to explain something that’s occurred in the past. Some people don’t understand that decisions made in the 50’s and even before have shaped what we have today and might have tomorrow . I know a lot of people who were tortured in by Shahs secret police. And we all know Savak was trained by the CIA . What do you think those people who were tortured are going to tell their kids ? And those kids will tell their kids. It doesn’t matter how long ago the injustice occurred , what matters is people admitting their mistakes. Nations have apologized for dark acts in the past , its not new. But the United States has never apologized to the Iranian people. I don’t care about the Iranian government because they don’t represent the people but the US should directly apologize to the Iranian people because there is still a lot of distrust left.

No need to thank me because I didn’t help you in any shape or form.


Persians did it to other Persians no matter how you look at it.

[apadana]

After coming to power in his own Coup.....
What coup are you talking about? There were a lot of changes in Iran during those times. Reza Shah came to power and did many great things for Iran. The country was dirt nothing when he came to power but he did a lot of good things for the country before he was replaced by a US/UK back coup by his son.


Gee, you think in the middle of a World War inviting the Nazi's to send you troops might Perturb the Allies? Ya think? Funny also that the Soviet Union is considered the "West" since they invaded at the same time..... Most people then wouldnt like a Luftwaffe base near their Lines of supply, your mileage may differ

Gee ya think Iran liked being the playground of the superpowers? The Russians and the Brits basically divided up the country and did what they liked to Iran. The Brits got the better part of Iran where all the oil was. And Iran was close to Germany because the Germans never really tried stealing Iran’s wealth or try to interfere with its internal politics unlike the Brits or the soviets. Iran never supported the Nazi ideology . In fact , many Jews escaped to Iran from Europe and Iran had a large Jewish population at the time and still does today .


Mossadegh nationalized the Oil Industry, shutting out Private Oil Corporation's such as AIOC, As we've seen seizing private property is something Communists/Socialists have regularly done, part and parcel of their Dogma.

Wow after reading this I don’t even think you deserve a response as you just made yourself look less credible . Did you ever stop to think why he nationalized the Angelo-Iranian company? The Brits were taking Iranian natural resources and giving back Iran basically nothing . Dr.. Mosadagh backed by the Majlis ( parliament ) asked the Angelo-Iranian oil company for 50-50 profit sharing which was still unfair but the Brits refused this . They were basically in Iran , using Iranians as slaves and didn’t want to give back to the Iranian people or the government . The working/living conditions of those workers were unthinkable . And Iran had nothing but oil revenues as a source of income in those days . If nationalizing what belongs to you is considered communist then sign me up as a communist. It amazes me that even the Brits think of what they did as a mistake but your sitting here trying to defend what they wrongfully did? Mosadagh had the support of the people when he nationalized what belonged to the Iranian people. That’s like saying that the Americans are communist for taking over what the Brits had in the US after the American revolution that kicked out the Brits.

After Mosadagh nationalized the AIOC the Brit froze Iran assets and banned export of good to Iran which totally destroyed Iran’s economy . The British challenged the legality of nationalizing the AIOC and took the case to the International court of Justice AND LOST THE CASE!!! So how can you sit behind your computer nearly 6o years later and try to defend the British and accuse Mosadafh of acting like a communist?

[apadana]

Persians did it to other Persians no matter how you look at it.

I am not denying that now am I ? those people who did this were punished by the people when the revolution happed . They paid the price for their acts .
But that doesn’t make it ok for governments to support the people who carried out those tortures .

[LaoSexMachine]

I am not denying that now am I ? those people who did this were punished by the people when the revolution happed . They paid the price for their acts .
But that doesn’t make it ok for governments to support the people who carried out those tortures .



A Persian government? Seems like things haven't changed at all in Iran.

[Jobu]

the US should directly apologize to the Iranian people because there is still a lot of distrust left.

Soon as the Iranian people apologize for 1979.

Fair enough?

[deagle]

that guy is off his F%^@#&'ing rocker !

[apadana]

Soon as the Iranian people apologize for 1979.

Fair enough?

They have . You would known that if you watched or read books about the hostage crises. They said it was a mistake

[LineDoggie]

wrong again: the rumour was attributed to the Clinton campaign by several Right wing 'news' programs on TV and radio as well as publications on the net. It was attempt to smear both - one with the charge of backstabbing, the other with Islamism:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200701200003



The Clinton campaign denounced the smear immediately. Plenty of people at mp.net on the other hand choose to go on believing it.

Here's a fact: they issued a joint statement early on in the campaign condemming the rumour. Thereafter it lived on only in the imaginations of net trolls that divide their time between Resch's Pilsener, cruising Stormfront and sometimes come wandering over here.


Heres a FACT dude. Phillip Berg, who sued all the way to the supreme court is a Democrat and Hillary supporter

Google fu is your friend, use it

[VEVAK]

Awwwwwwwww you poor victim. How old are you anyway? Have a hard time under the Shah did you? I'm sorry. There. Now can that insane cocks*cker that runs your country stop telling everyone the Jews and the US all need to die in a large Satanic bonfire? Thanks. Appreciate the help.

Yes you are right and we are a "victim" because if it wasn't for the CIA (US) Iran would have been a secular and democratic country and not a theocratic one.







Mossadegh nationalized the Oil Industry, shutting out Private Oil Corporation's such as AIOC, As we've seen seizing private property is something Communists/Socialists have regularly done, part and parcel of their Dogma.

Mr. Mossadegh was a nationalist not a communist. Labeling him as a communist was done by purpose by the British so the US would overthrow him.


Soon as the Iranian people apologize for 1979.

Fair enough?

What happened in 1979 happened because of what happened in 1953. The Iranians thought that the new government of Khomeini would be a full democracy (and it was during the Interim government headed by Bazargan), so they seized the American embassy to prevent another US backed coup.

[Jobu]

The Iranians thought that the new government of Khomeini would be a full democracy (and it was during the Interim government headed by Bazargan), so they seized the American embassy to prevent another US backed coup.

I have a bridge to sell you.

[VEVAK]

Perfect video:

http://ca.youtube.com/v/AJRcOF7rEfQ

[BlackFlag]

Sorry Iran..We cool?








Oh yeah, that means stop buildng Nukes or else the Juice will assist you in that manner.

[kitatatsumi]

Two points I'd like to make.
As we all know, interfering in foreign governments was (is?) the name of the game during the Cold War.
Lots of nations experienced foreign-backed coups and various levels of manipulation. No doubt about it. It was a truly regrettable time.
Yet only a very few decided it was necessary to go full-radical following 'liberation'.
I mean did the Eastern Bloc go ultra-right wing and make "USSR the Great Satan" their mantra?
Did the Philippines ostracize themselves from the world community after the US 'left'?
Did Central America place anti-Americanism at the absolute top of their priorities?
Did Cuba......OK bad example.

Therefore, it seems strange to me that the US is supposed to accept blame and responsibility for the radical path Iran chose in 1979.
Yeah, sure. The US meddled, as did many other nations, but purging, destabilizing, tearing itself apart, driving its economy into the ground and hanging homo******s was entirely, %100 Iran's choice.

As was the conduct during the Iran Iraq War which earned them the wrath of much of the World. As a result of the decisions they made in during the war, they ensured global (not just US) support for Iraq.

Plus.
While I would never suggest the US should apologize.
I honestly think taking a more accommodating approach will pay healthy dividends.
First, what has the current confrontational approach given us? Not much. Are our allies safer? Is Iran contained militarily/economically?
Not really. So I think there is no big reason to high-five each other in regards to our current policies and their outcomes.

Which brings me to my point; the US extending a hand of peace to Iran is probably the single greatest threat the regime faces.
Either the regime accepts 'peace' and become obsolete.
Or the regime turns it down and the entire world, including their people sees them for who they are. A government which truly does not seek peace.
We have the upper hand in both cases.
Didn't Clinton "apologize" to Guatemala?
What happened? Nothing.

[WiraBengis]

Forgive and forget, wow what a change.

[commanding]

They have . You would known that if you watched or read books about the hostage crises. They said it was a mistake

Only problem with the apologize deal, is that the way I understand it, the
American Embassy is American soil. So when they broke into the American embassy and took American hostages, they in reality came onto american soil, took U.S. marines in uniform as hostages, as well as those employees who had diplomatic imunitiy from all Iranian laws and such. By doing that, it was an act of WAR. A simple apology, does not satisfy this old soldier. No FVCKING way!
They can apologize til the freakin cows come home and it would not be enough for me. War is war, kick a$$ and take names. As far as I am concerned, we are still at (a state of) war with Iran and North Korea. (as well as the Taliban and Al Quaeda)

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Ok how about this, first Iran apologizes for seizing our embassy and holding our people hostage for over a year. Then, we apologize for the Shah being an ass, and helping their countrymen overthrow their government in 1953. Then they apologize for violating the agreement they signed regarding development of their oil industry. Then we get the Brits to apologize for being unwilling to renegotiate the contract. Then Iran apologizes for causing the whole mess by being an ancient culture that somehow wound up being unable to drill a hole in it's own back yard and find some crap that it took a bunch of pale Englishmen to come trudging over the hill and find for them.

[kitatatsumi]

@ Commanding
Which is pretty much the same way the Iranians see it.

[commanding]

Pres. Obama can apologize if he wants. He has the authority. However, to me, there is no "carrot". I suspect that even if there was an apology to Iran for any past wrongs on our part, there would be nothing gained. the old question of "what's in it for me?" rings in my ears.
I suspect, that left alone for a long enough time, the Iranian people will rise up and kick out the religious zealots who now control their country.
In fact, I would not be the least surprised if Osama bin Laden was cooling his heels in some Iranian retreat right now.

[budgie]

Heres a FACT dude. Phillip Berg, who sued all the way to the supreme court is a Democrat and Hillary supporter

Google fu is your friend, use it

Philip J. Berg sued over the citizenship "issue" - a separate case. And though it is claimed he's a Hillary supporter, he is certainly in line with the right-wing nutters who believe in the Madrassa story (a separate case as stated).

And do you actually believe either charge? Because if anyone here believes in either the falsified birth cert or the Madrasa nonsense it doesn't matter where the information came from: it's bats$#!t either way.

Google bat$#!t while you're at it.

[VEVAK]

Only problem with the apologize deal, is that the way I understand it, the
American Embassy is American soil. So when they broke into the American embassy and took American hostages, they in reality came onto american soil, took U.S. marines in uniform as hostages, as well as those employees who had diplomatic imunitiy from all Iranian laws and such. By doing that, it was an act of WAR. A simple apology, does not satisfy this old soldier. No FVCKING way!
They can apologize til the freakin cows come home and it would not be enough for me. War is war, kick a$$ and take names. As far as I am concerned, we are still at (a state of) war with Iran and North Korea. (as well as the Taliban and Al Quaeda)

And when the US overthrow our democratic and secular government on Iranian soil and put back a dictator, thats way worse.

52 Americans were Hostage for 444 Days while 50-70 million Iranians were and still are hostage since 1941. We had 2 years of freedom but oh thanks the great CIA, you destroyed that :bash:.

[helomech]

And when the US overthrow our democratic and secular government on Iranian soil and put back a dictator, thats way worse.

52 Americans were Hostage for 444 Days while 50-70 million Iranians were and still are hostage since 1941. We had 2 years of freedom but oh thanks the great CIA, you destroyed that :bash:.

Why don't the people rise up and make the change for themselves?It is possible the US and other allies may have clouded things up along the way but the Iranian people can cause an effect and change on their own as well

[Hollis]

And when the US overthrow our democratic and secular government on Iranian soil and put back a dictator, thats way worse.

52 Americans were Hostage for 444 Days while 50-70 million Iranians were and still are hostage since 1941. We had 2 years of freedom but oh thanks the great CIA, you destroyed that :bash:.


Lay off the smilies.

The CIA is more noted for it's incompetency more than anything else.

Funny how many parts of history is ignore just to credit the US with all the wrong doings. (hint CCCP & PDRC)

The US didn't overthrow jack scat. If here was no force for change in Iran it would never have happened. Look at Saddam it took a major military operation to "Over throw" him. You think a few CIA can do the same, your smoking something weird.

[kitatatsumi]

And when the US overthrow our democratic and secular government on Iranian soil and put back a dictator, thats way worse.

52 Americans were Hostage for 444 Days while 50-70 million Iranians were and still are hostage since 1941. We had 2 years of freedom but oh thanks the great CIA, you destroyed that :bash:.

70 million hostages since '41?
OK.
Why? Because of something the US did half a century ago, or becasue what the regime is doing right now?

[Adux]

Whatever said and done, a golden opportunity was lost when Khatami was around!

[apadana]

Ok how about this, first Iran apologizes for seizing our embassy and holding our people hostage for over a year. Then, we apologize for the Shah being an ass, and helping their countrymen overthrow their government in 1953. Then they apologize for violating the agreement they signed regarding development of their oil industry. Then we get the Brits to apologize for being unwilling to renegotiate the contract. Then Iran apologizes for causing the whole mess by being an ancient culture that somehow wound up being unable to drill a hole in it's own back yard and find some crap that it took a bunch of pale Englishmen to come trudging over the hill and find for them.

Bush never apologized when his navy under his watch shot an Iranian airliner that killed 300 innocent people . What do you think about that?

[Expert Marksman 126]

Bush never apologized when his navy under his watch shot an Iranian airliner that killed 300 innocent people . What do you think about that?

When did that happen? Lets see some facts.

[Hollis]

When did that happen? Lets see some facts.


It happened, Transponders on the airliner where wrong and flight path put it in harms way. It is believe it was a Iranian set up. If memory is correct.

[apadana]

When did that happen? Lets see some facts.

You never heard of the US navy shooting down an Iranian airliners killing 300 people in the Persian Gulf?

The US tried to blame the Iranian for the event and claimed that the US ship was in international water. But four years later it was revealed that the ship was in fact in Iranian waters. At the time the ship boasted the most sophisticated technology in the world and yet it some how managed to “mistake” an Iranian airbus for an F14 fighter jet. The crew and its Capitan were all awarded medals years later.
in the same article

The US government has never admitted responsibility or apologised for the tragedy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/3/newsid_4678000/4678707.stm

[Ghostryder]

Obama said he would extend the "hand of friendship" if they opened up their clenched fist, well the right fist is clenched but the left hand is open. What to do?

Where going to fight like a democracy, shaking hands with the left, and inducing concussions with the right...

I'm a little bit Country, and I'm a little bit Rock n' Roll...

[Hollis]

You never heard of the US navy shooting down an Iranian airliners killing 300 people in the Persian Gulf?

The US tried to blame the Iranian for the event and claimed that the US ship was in international water. But four years later it was revealed that the ship was in fact in Iranian waters. At the time the ship boasted the most sophisticated technology in the world and yet it some how managed to “mistake” an Iranian airbus for an F14 fighter jet. The crew and its Capitan were all awarded medals years later.
in the same article


http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/3/newsid_4678000/4678707.stm


I am going to go by my memory and this statement from the article you posted.

"The USS Vincennes had tracked the plane electronically and warned it to keep away. When it did not the ship fired two surface-to-air missiles, at least one of which hit the airliner. Navy officials said the Vincennes' crew believed they were firing at an Iranian F14 jet fighter, although they had not confirmed this visually"

[Expert Marksman 126]

You never heard of the US navy shooting down an Iranian airliners killing 300 people in the Persian Gulf?

The US tried to blame the Iranian for the event and claimed that the US ship was in international water. But four years later it was revealed that the ship was in fact in Iranian waters. At the time the ship boasted the most sophisticated technology in the world and yet it some how managed to “mistake” an Iranian airbus for an F14 fighter jet. The crew and its Capitan were all awarded medals years later.
in the same article


http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/3/newsid_4678000/4678707.stm

That was before I was born, and you need to be more specific about who youre talking about.

[Expert Marksman 126]

It happened, Transponders on the airliner where wrong and flight path put it in harms way. It is believe it was a Iranian set up. If memory is correct.

Oh. I never heard about that, and when he wrote Bush I assumed he was talking about George W. Bush.

[Hollis]

Oh. I never heard about that, and when he wrote Bush I assumed he was talking about George W. Bush.


The thinking at the time, it was a Iranian setup.

testing, our ability to read their military transponders, or our reaction, our defensive capabilities against air attack, The reason only the Iranian military knows.

It was off course and sending the wrong transponder information. If only one of those mistakes were made, it might have been just a terrible mistake.


Same way a few years ago, IRG speed boats where pestering our ships.

They were gathering information that could probably be used on attacks on US ships by speed boats.

All of this is simple military tactics, lethal, but still tactics.

I guess the Iranian government/military figured they would be in a win win situation. If nothing happened, they would have great intel. If the US responded as it did, they would have great anti-US propaganda.

If Iranian government cared about human life, they would not use their courts to silence descent (via judicial homicide), they would not support their various terrorist proxies, etc.

[Expert Marksman 126]

No, the iranian government is composed of good, honest people. They would never do something like that.

Sounds like that theory is spot on to me. Its sort of sad that they have hung onto it for 21 years though.

[Hollis]

No, the iranian government is composed of good, honest people. They would never do something like that.

Sounds like that theory is spot on to me. Its sort of sad that they have hung onto it for 21 years though.


The thing is, we know on our end what and why. We don't know on the Iranian end, what and why. Hopefully the Iranian people will take charge of their country.

[Expert Marksman 126]

That would be good as long as the right people got in. Chances are they would wind up even worse off.

[ting]

The thinking at the time, it was a Iranian setup.

testing, our ability to read their military transponders, or our reaction, our defensive capabilities against air attack, The reason only the Iranian military knows.

It was off course and sending the wrong transponder information. If only one of those mistakes were made, it might have been just a terrible mistake.


Same way a few years ago, IRG speed boats where pestering our ships.

They were gathering information that could probably be used on attacks on US ships by speed boats.

All of this is simple military tactics, lethal, but still tactics.

I guess the Iranian government/military figured they would be in a win win situation. If nothing happened, they would have great intel. If the US responded as it did, they would have great anti-US propaganda.

If Iranian government cared about human life, they would not use their courts to silence descent (via judicial homicide), they would not support their various terrorist proxies, etc.

I think you got it wrong.


It was determined by a formal military investigation[5] that the Aegis system was fully operational and did not have any maintenance issues. The investigation ruled that had the Commanding officer relied on the full tactical data displayed by the Aegis system, (i.e. Doctrine), the engagement might never have occurred. Additionally, psychological effects of the crew subconsciously manipulating the data to fit a predefined scenario greatly contributed to the false identification. The investigation found that the Aegis Combat System did not contribute to the incident, but did aid in the investigation by means of recorded target data. The discrepancies are as follows:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis_combat_system

That article has a god comparison of what the system said was going on and what the operator said was going on.

Here is the article about the accident:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

[Hollis]

Ting as I mention it was the thinking of that time when it happened. I wasn't there I don't what actually happened and why. I know the extreme Iranian claims are false.

If you want to believe the US military deliberately targets civilian that is your choice. Wiki leaves it as a accident, with some unknowns. The Iranians where attacking shipping which did not help the situation.

[ting]

Ting as I mention it was the thinking of that time when it happened. I wasn't there I don't what actually happened and why. I know the extreme Iranian claims are false.

If you want to believe the US military deliberately targets civilian that is your choice. Wiki leaves it as a accident, with some unknowns. The Iranians where attacking shipping which did not help the situation.

Oh I misunderstood you there. Yes, it was an accident.

[budgie]

I am going to go by my memory and this statement from the article you posted.

"The USS Vincennes had tracked the plane electronically and warned it to keep away. When it did not the ship fired two surface-to-air missiles, at least one of which hit the airliner. Navy officials said the Vincennes' crew believed they were firing at an Iranian F14 jet fighter, although they had not confirmed this visually"

The real reason for teh shootdown here is that the weapons operators believed they were firing on a military plane which means their instruments weren't working or whoever was reading them wasn't paying attention/properly trained. I don't believe that if the guys on the ship knew it was a passenger plane they would have fired, warning or no.

I also doubt that the Iranians deliberately set it up. Hard to believe they'd arrange the accidental death of a couple hundred passengers just to play chicken or for the right to complain to the UN.

[Hollis]

The real reason for teh shootdown here is that the weapons operators believed they were firing on a military plane which means their instruments weren't working or whoever was reading them wasn't paying attention/properly trained. I don't believe that if the guys on the ship knew it was a passenger plane they would have fired, warning or no.

I also doubt that the Iranians deliberately set it up. Hard to believe they'd arrange the accidental death of a couple hundred passengers just to play chicken or for the right to complain to the UN.


Your probably on spot there. At the time, the US was accused of a deliberate act. That just was not the case. So trying to figure out what was happening on the Iranian side was based on speculation on why this happened after all they where not going to say anything but blame the US.

I am trying to remember all that went on at the time. Could easy have been a combination of errors on both side or ?? or ??

1988 was a interesting year. A lot was going on. Could have been a set up, that gone bad too. They thought the plane would not be shot down or a accident in ID would not have happened.

Again I don't think we will ever know all the information.

[commanding]

I think all the ships in the gulf at that time were really "jumpy" because of the Iraqi Mirage jet shooting (missles) at the USS Stark a few months prior, the harassing of the oil tankers shipping of Saudi and all by the warring Iranians and Iraqis, etc. Plus one of the US ships had hit a mine in the water(Iranian I think). Everyone was watching all sides 24/7.
With the long range missles, both surface to air and air to surface, you can't wait to visually identify a target at sea.

I know I felt bad when it happened seeing all those poor folks dead in the ocean, but feeling bad ain't bringing anybody back. Someone screwed up, evidently the navigator on the airbus, or pilot.
I think the claim about the Vincennes being in Iranian territorial waters is hogwash. Lots of countries try to claim their territorial waters go out hundreds of miles...and that doesn't cut it. Eveyone has to use the same distance for territorial waters, or Roy Rogers may have to come back and spank someone.

[budgie]

I am trying to remember all that went on at the time. Could easy have been a combination of errors on both side or ?? or ??
.

Easily. After all why didn't the pilots respond or change course? Poor training? Poor English (a big no-no in international aviation)? Wrong frequency? Car accidents almost always happen because both of the drivers were doing something wrong.

[Telmar]

Although accidental, it would have been decent to formulate apologies after the shoot down. Especially considering the number of casualties.

We do apologize for harm done to others, even unintentionnally.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Easily. After all why didn't the pilots respond or change course? Poor training? Poor English (a big no-no in international aviation)? Wrong frequency? Car accidents almost always happen because both of the drivers were doing something wrong.

I pretty much agree with this...in all the reports I've read of the incident (which happened under Reagan, so this goes back a ways) - it appears both sides made mistakes. We have to remember the context the incident happened under - war between Iran & Iraq, and it had only been a few years since Iran seized our embassy - they had been harassing our forces in the area - Iran had been attacking oil tankers from any nation that supported Iraq.

But...I'm of the opinion that even under those conditions, the crew of the Vincennes should have been willing to stick their necks out a bit more before unleashing weapons. For example, the USN fired only 2 AIM-54's over that system's 30 year history, because quite simply at those ranges, it was virtually impossible to be 100% sure of who/what they were shooting at.

An apology? I don't know - I think under the circumstances a statement of regret over the loss may have been more appropriate. Both sides were antagonistic and operating on a war footing...I don't recall Iran issuing any apologies to the civilian crews of the oil tankers they attacked.

[kitatatsumi]

I have read articles suggesting it was some type of Iranian false flag operation. (cant seem to find them now) This is based on the 'fact' that (some of) the survivors were found naked, and some even handcuffed. I read that someone thought it might have been a flight full of prisoners. I cant say if it is true or not.
But there were some strange going-ons.
I am just repeating what I read when researching this event. Sorry for not having anything to back it up.
Of course it was a horrible tragedy and the result of a team effort on both sides.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

An apology? I don't know - I think under the circumstances a statement of regret over the loss may have been more appropriate. Both sides were antagonistic and operating on a war footing...I don't recall Iran issuing any apologies to the civilian crews of the oil tankers they attacked.

...I had to resurrect this thread after coming across a couple of things today on Wiki, sort of by accident. I'm ashamed to admit that I had forgotten about this stuff.

Iran and the US were more than just "on a war footing" as I said above...they had actually been fighting each other, with casualties on both sides, prior to the Vincennes/Iran Air incident.

In October 1987, the US launched operation Nimble Archer, destroying Iranian oil platforms, after Iran attacked a reflagged Kuwaiti tanker at anchor in Kuwati waters. The vessel was under a US flag - the Kuwatis had also leased Soviet ships at the time in an effort to keep it's vessels safe.

Just months later, in April of 1988, the US conducted operation Praying Mantis, after the Iranians mined the navigable waters of the Gulf, and the Guided Missile Frigate USS Samuel B. Roberts hit one (it nearly sank). In this fairly large and decidedly violent operation, the US destroyed more platforms, sank several Iranian speedboats, an Iranian frigate, and a fast attack gunboat. The Iranians for their part, launched several anti-ship missiles at us, and attacked the destroyer USS Wainwright with aircraft.

As a result of all this, the Vincennes was called in to cover the extraction of the Roberts...and it was only months later that it, in turn, shot down Iran Air 655.

To me, this certainly sheds light on what the situation really was. The actions (or inactions) of the Iran Air flight now seem completely inexplicable, considering the circumstances. And the actions of the Vincennes crew look a lot less like shooting from the hip. To them, this wasn't just some isolated incident, but could have well been just the next chapter in the conflict.