Marines to test, evaluate 4 auto-rifle models

[KB]

Posted : Sunday Feb 1, 2009 9:14:04 EST

MARINE CORPS BASE QUANTICO, Va. — Like it or not, it’s coming.

The Corps is moving forward with plans to test replacements for the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon, and will receive initial deliveries this spring, Marine officials said.

The Infantry Automatic Rifle could be fielded as early as October 2010, said Maj. John Smith, the weapon’s project officer at Marine Corps Systems Command in Quantico, Va. Testing is expected to begin in April on four finalists competing for the contract, with Camp Pendleton, Calif.-based 1st Marine Division involved in the process.

“It’ll be fleet Marines that are testing it,” Smith said. “We’ll be collecting data and getting feedback from Marines. All of [the weapons] could meet our needs, but we need to dig a little deeper and get the input on what the average Marine thinks.”

The push to include Marines in the process hasn’t stopped grumbling across the Corps. Many grunts question the wisdom of reducing the number of SAWs, light machine guns with a 5.56mm, 200-round belt that allows Marines to unleash a tremendous volume of fire when threatened. The IAR will employ the same 5.56mm, 30-round magazine used with the Corps’ main service weapons, the M16A4 rifle and M4 carbine.

“My big concern right now is that loss of fire,” said Staff Sgt. Craig Wilcox, an infantry unit leader who deployed to Afghanistan twice and Iraq once, and is now a combat instructor at the Camp Lejeune, N.C.-based School of Infantry-East. “We’re taught from day one that the SAW is the center of the squad itself. When you’re looking at dropping all those rounds, you’re going to lose your ability to maneuver and fire as quickly and efficiently as we have done in the past,” Wilcox said.

It’s a long-running debate in the Corps — even in the community that made the decision, said Patrick Cantwell, a former captain who serves as the Corps’ small arms capability officer.

Should the Corps cut weight to increase mobility? And if so, what should a new weapon offer?

A look at the finalists

The four finalists in the IAR competition, announced in December, stand in stark contrast to the SAW, which is more than 40 inches long and weighs about 16½ pounds empty. The weapon jumps to more than 22 pounds when loaded with the 200-round belt.

The lightest of the replacements under consideration is Heckler & Koch’s IAR, which weighs 7.9 pounds empty, with a 36.9-inch stock that collapses to 33 inches. The heaviest is FN Herstal’s entry, which weighs 11.2 pounds and has a 38.8-inch stock that collapses to 36.3 inches.

The other two finalists in the competition are made by Colt Defense, maker of the M4. Labeled the Colt 6940 and Colt 6940H, they weigh 10.1 pounds and 9.28 pounds, respectively, and vary because they have different heat sinks and upper receivers. Marine officials did not elaborate on the differences, but said the variations merited another look.

“They both performed very well, which is why they made the cut, but we needed to test them more to tell them apart,” Smith said.

Company officials at each of the three manufacturers remaining in the competition were tight-lipped about their products. HK and FNH, which makes the SAW, declined interviews, but provided specifications and photographs of their weapons, while Colt officials declined to be interviewed or release details about their products. The Corps released photographs and a basic description of each Colt weapon.

“Obviously we’re pleased to be included in the competition,” said retired Maj. Gen. James Battaglini, chief operating officer for Colt. “We’d rather let the results speak for themselves.”

The finalists diverge most clearly when it comes to their operating systems. Only FNH’s IAR fires from both the open- and closed-bolt positions, a requirement to keep the heat down when the Corps initially announced the competition. Cantwell said “that restriction went away” as officials surveyed their options.

“In a perfect world, we would like a [weapon firing from the] closed-bolt, because there are advantages to that, but we kind of took what we got and weighed the pros and cons, like the accuracy and the weight and the other elements,” Cantwell said.

Both of Colt’s weapons fire from the closed-bolt position using a direct gas impingement system, Marine officials said. HK’s IAR fires from the closed-bolt position using a gas-operated system.

The IAR finalists vary from the SAW in other ways, as well.

The SAW, first fielded in the 1980s, provides a sustained rate of fire of 85 rounds per minute. The sustained rate of fire available in the FNH and HK models is 12 to 15 rounds per minute, with a maximum effective rate of fire of 36 rounds per minute for 1,200 rounds or 75 rounds per minute for 600 rounds, company officials said.

At a cyclic rate, the SAW can fire more than 750 rounds per minute. FNH’s IAR fires from 560 to 640 rounds per minute at a cyclic rate, while HK’s fires 700 to 900.

Rates of fire for Colt’s models were not released, but the Corps required that the IAR fire 36 rounds per minute for 16 minutes, 40 seconds. The IAR also must fire at a higher rate of 75 rounds per minute for eight minutes, Cantwell said.

Early in the evaluation process, the Corps’ requirement called for the IAR to use 100-round magazines. That was eventually eliminated in favor of using 30-round magazines.

A change in mindset

The idea to replace the SAW dates back to August 2001, Cantwell said, before the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were on the horizon. Tired of lugging around the SAW, grunts with 2nd Battalion, 7th Marines, in Twentynine Palms, Calif., purchased three commercial automatic rifle variants and pitted them against the belt-fed beast.

“What they found was that the SAW had definite advantages, but it also had definite disadvantages, and the two (disadvantages) that they noted were employment speed and accuracy,” Cantwell said. “So they recommended that we go for an automatic rifle for infantry units.”

A month later, the idea was brought to the Marine Corps Ground Board — a panel that includes the four Marine division commanders and the deputy commandant for plans, policies and operations — which reviews recommendations pushed up from the fleet. The board recommended that the Corps pursue the use of a new automatic rifle in September 2001, Cantwell said.

Then came the attacks on 9/11.

The SAW played a prominent role in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. But SysCom continued to move steadily toward fielding a weapon that could replace it. That competition took a major step in December with the naming of the four finalists.

“The idea is that it’s supposed to bridge the gap between the M16 and a machine gun for small units and fire teams,” Cantwell said. “What we found was that the SAW gunner ends up slowing down an assault, or the SAW gunner ends up getting put in a support fire position, neither one of which is really the ideal use for a fire team.”

In the coming years, the Corps plans to reduce the number of SAWs in the Corps from 11,381 weapons to about 8,000, officials said, causing a variety of changes for grunts.

“The leadership within the infantry community will have to adjust training and [tactics, techniques and procedures] for the IAR,” Smith said. “The Marine Corps spent a long time thinking about this, and the infantry community in particular has spent a long time thinking about this and debating this and understanding what capabilities we wanted out of a weapons system.”

The fielding of the IAR also will have implications on the rifle range, where automatic riflemen will be required to qualify with the new weapon, Cantwell said.

“When a Marine goes to a rifle range and he’s an automatic rifleman, he will be taking his IAR to the rifle range,” Cantwell said. “He won’t be turning his IAR in and drawing a service rifle, which is what he has to do now if he’s a SAW gunner.”

Suppressive fire suppressed

Marines will still use SAWs in many situations, especially for airfield security or overwatch from towers, Marine officials said. But on basic patrols, Marines are likely to find themselves with an IAR in their squad, like it or not.

One infantry corporal with Camp Pendleton-based 1st Marine Regiment said that without the SAW, things would have been even more difficult when he deployed to Karma, Iraq, in 2006, considered by many to be the most dangerous city in the country at the time.

“If we wouldn’t have had it, we wouldn’t have had enough firepower to know what to do,” he said. “With the SAW, you’ve got a 200-round drum. I’d much rather have 200 rounds ready to go than to have to reload all the time. Not every shot is going to be on target, you know what I mean?

I’d rather have more firepower, especially in an ambush.”

Wilcox and the corporal also said that any weight advantage achieved could be negated because Marines will need to carry more ammo to make up for the loss of the drums.

“How many magazines are you going to make me carry on my flak?” the corporal said.

Smith and Cantwell said they understand those concerns, and believe it comes with Marines finding comfort in what’s familiar.

“From personal experience, I went into the fleet as a second lieutenant not [long] after the transition from the M60 to the M240 Golf,” Smith said.

“My machine gunners complained about the M240 Golf because when it broke, they didn’t know how to fix it, whereas they had years and years of experience [of learning] how to use bailing wire or whatever to get the M60 working again.”

Cantwell said it will take training to make Marines familiar and comfortable with what comes next.

“The biggest problem is it’s a mentality issue, and the issue [that] a 30-round magazine will go through too quickly,” Cantwell said. “That’s very true — if you use the same mentality that we use right now with the SAW, which is to pull the trigger at everything.

“There will be some training that goes into this,” he said. “We’re looking for a well-aimed shot, and then occasionally shooting a burst into a troop formation or an area target as opposed to what we do now, where we’re much more (laying) area fire with the SAW.”

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/xml/news/2009/02/marine_newsaw_020109w/020109mc_saw_graphic.JPG (http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/xml/news/2009/02/marine_newsaw_020109w/020109mc_saw_graphic.JPG)
Chris Broz

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2009/02/marine_newsaw_020109w/

[bababooey]

I think I may have read it somewhere else on this forum...but, what about the Ultimax SAW from Singapore? Those rifles look like, well, rifles and not SAW replacements, IMO.

[Nizark]

I would love to hear some response from guys who carried the SAW in combat and what they think about this.

Also, anyone know if it would be possible to put a drum on the winner to increase ammo capacity?

[eATS]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=148407

i would go with the FN IAR

i was wondering about the clip .30rds? i heard a rotary is not as reliable...?

this is crazy

" Internally a mechanical devive near under the bolt by the chamber that sense the temperture of the chamber and automatically turn the closed bolt gun into a open bolt and back again once the temp goes back to a more acceptable level.....very slick....no electronics, nothing to break, just a mechanical rod that will push back and turn the gun into open bolt for long sustain fire.....talk about impressive.....!!"

[paracrusader]

The SAW sucks to carry- but I've been awfully glad to have it there on several occasions!

And, yes, it looks like all of these systems would be capable of using the Beta C-mag or something similar.

[The Dane]

The SAW sucks to carry- but I've been awfully glad to have it there on several occasions!

And, yes, it looks like all of these systems would be capable of using the Beta C-mag or something similar.

C-mag's don't work.

[freethinker]

Meh, why not just use the SAW with the shorter barrel and retractible stock etc. Hell we still use modified FN MAGs in the homeguard. Now thats a BIG and heavy weapon for when you absolutely positively need to suppress some moterfu*ker.
I've seen old men lug that thing around during combat excersises all day long.

[pmj]

The finalists diverge most clearly when it comes to their operating systems. Only FNH’s IAR fires from both the open- and closed-bolt positions, a requirement to keep the heat down when the Corps initially announced the competition. Cantwell said “that restriction went away” as officials surveyed their options.

Now that is interesting. After the quick change barrel requirement they also shelved the "open bolt" one. And I wondered why HK had no open bolt option on their offering. Colt using a DI-system is questionable in my opinion.

[Ratamacue]

I too am curious about the lack of mention of the Ultimax 100. Last I heard it was being presented by General Dynamics and was still running in the competition.


Meh, why not just use the SAW with the shorter barrel and retractible stock etc.They already do. It's still extremely heavy and cumbersome compared to the IAR entries.

[freethinker]

“The biggest problem is it’s a mentality issue, and the issue [that] a 30-round magazine will go through too quickly,” Cantwell said. “That’s very true — if you use the same mentality that we use right now with the SAW, which is to pull the trigger at everything.

“There will be some training that goes into this,” he said. “We’re looking for a well-aimed shot, and then occasionally shooting a burst into a troop formation or an area target as opposed to what we do now, where we’re much more (laying) area fire with the SAW.”

Well why even bother then? Can just as well use an M4 for that or am i missing something?

[Mr Mechanised]

The Brits have been down this road once with the LSW. A magazine-fed weapon is a built in limitation de luxe when it comes to supressive fire. Nowadays Brits and most other armys use belt-fed weapons. Doing so saves lives. The idea to change to a mag-fed weapon in such a fighting unit as the Marines seems like a desktop solution to a real life problem. Dont go down d-md-ss alley again please...

[Briggs]

Meh, why not just use the SAW with the shorter barrel and retractible stock etc. Hell we still use modified FN MAGs in the homeguard. Now thats a BIG and heavy weapon for when you absolutely positively need to suppress some moterfu*ker.
I've seen old men lug that thing around during combat excersises all day long.

Well there is the new FN Minimi 7.62 ;p

[Bro Jangles]

The FN IAR open bolt design really seems cool. It will switch between the two based on the heat of the barrel. But i understood they arnt replacing all the saws just 1/3?

[Invisigoth]

Can someone enlighten me as to the point of this weapons system vis-a-vis a standard assault rifle?

[pmj]

Can someone enlighten me as to the point of this weapons system vis-a-vis a standard assault rifle?


I was asking myself the same question. Apparently they shelved all the initial requirements like the quick change barrel, open-bolt mode etc. Now it's just an assault rifle with a heavy barrel. I don't know how well this heat-sink by colt works.

[HGRazorR]

I just keep thinking about the BAR for some reason...but, I'm far from being any type of weapons expert. Is the idea similar here?

What were the pros and cons of it back in WWII? Then again, it was WWII where the infantrymen (for the most part) were carrying bolt actions.

[Mr Mechanised]

Totally useless concept. No point. Typical desk- top solution. Where is the specification for this product? Seems strange that they meant to get a new generation of SAW but ended up with this... Has the industryguys brainwashed the client?

[Little J]

I know it would be expensive, but couldn't they get an M249 or MG4 made from lighter exotic materials and get the weight down that way?
As Mr mechanised said the LSW was a failure and now is used in a light sniper role, not even what the IAR is being proposed for...

[LongShot]

Looks like LWRC didnt make the final cut....

[Col.O'neill]

This r not good.

[deagle]

if they made a more reliable c-mag, that might work. the drum design isn't as boxy. imagine a fire-team outfitted with them ! i'm sure the USMC will pick the best option from the competition.

[ghostt888]

Well I guess with C-magazines would not be too bad, could put sustainable accurate fire on a target quicker that with the saw, but barrel changes etc would be a lot trickier if needed.

[Tanker31B]

Some times 200 rds of suppression fire is needed, you don't always have to hit your target to be effective. (nothing like a good solid hit though)


I hope this doesn't happen, seems to be a step backward.

I dont think it will.

[stevej]

Now that is interesting. After the quick change barrel requirement they also shelved the "open bolt" one. And I wondered why HK had no open bolt option on their offering. Colt using a DI-system is questionable in my opinion.

The HK IAR seems to be just a variant of the HK416 with no major improvements, if any.


The FN IAR open bolt design really seems cool. It will switch between the two based on the heat of the barrel. But i understood they arnt replacing all the saws just 1/3?

They are adding the IAR to the mix, not replacing the SAW ... at least that is my understanding.

One of the original requirements was an ultra-high capacity magazine. There has been no word on any developments in that area. A Colt was spotted sporting a MWG 90 magazine at the POF expo last year, above a poster showing the IAR.

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5626/iartmiq6.jpg
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/28/has-colt-chosen-the-mwg-90-round-magazine-for-the-iar/

[Ed Robinson]

I’ve used magazine fed MG’S and they are a backward step. The main draw back is when you have to put in a lot of suppressive fire you very quickly run out of mags. The solution: Use the sections magazines, sounds good sitting around in an office drinking coffee but a 30 rnd mag doesn’t last long . Funny as hell watching the no 2 on the gun trying to reload mags as quick as he can to try and keep the gun fed.
It is also great fun to try and fire and move as a gunner whilst securing those empty mags.

I would go with the argument by Mr Mechanised about the industry.

[CG51]

I thought the purpose of a MG was sustained fire. How well will that work with 30 rnd mags?

Why replace something that works fine?

[James]

Suck it up and carry a SAW. In my prime I could handle that little beast like a rifle. The answer isn't a replacement, it's more pushups.

[dlat83]

"James" your 100% right. Take note. It's to bad, suppressive fire can sometimes go beyond 30 rounds, I hope they re-think this one!!!

[bdique]

the ultimax was dropped dec08, don't mind me saying it but I guess it boiled down to 'buy america' :|

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/004605.html

[Smitty_Damitty]

Posted : Sunday Feb 1, 2009 9:14:04 EST
“What they found was that the SAW had definite advantages, but it also had definite disadvantages, and the two (disadvantages) that they noted were employment speed and accuracy,” Cantwell said. “So they recommended that we go for an automatic rifle for infantry units.”


Well call me old fashioned, but since when was accuracy the biggest concern when using a SAW? Suppression is just what it sounds like, point and shoot. With that amount of lead going downrange, you're gonna hit something or keep heads down at the very least. Me thinks that adopting the IAR will change the game quite a bit. For better or worse however, remains to be seen.

[Hispeed1]

The Ultimax was nice-too bad it didn't make it. I wouldn't be surprised if Colt wins this :-(

[3rdMillhouse]

What's the point of having an auto-rifle if you can't deliver some 150 rds downrange on the enemy?

[Gunge]

looks like the replacements are just fancy m16a4
they should keep the saw, the reason it came about was the need for high vol of firepower at a lighter weight than the m60, and integral to the fireteam/squad without having to get an attached m60 mg crew, no?

and the ultimax was a competitor along with the saw and a few others i cant recall, it bombed iirc
if it worked it would be built here after the initial orders just like m9,saw,240, etc

i got a brand spankin new saw in 86 as a priv but it was the **** we fired the hell out of them, the m16 mag took a little playin with to work reliably
but it was meant to be a last resort, and when the 200 rd tupperware box finally hit the fleet it was great
how much lighter did they get it with the mk46/47 the SEALS got?(the saw revamp)

if it aint broke dont fix it, but make it lighter

jus my .02

[firemedic]

The 249 aint heavy. I can fire it from the shoulder standing. I think we are all becoming wimps.:roll:

[Johnnyringo]

I was in Echo 2/7 back in 2000 when they were testing different replacements, My company ran the 400 series ranges with a magazine fed auto similar to something fielded by the Dutch Marines I think. The general consensus was that with the amount of rounds we're used to putting down range as an AR, meant twice the amount of mags needed and (this was before dump pouches were carried by the average infantryman) magazine retention was a pain in the a**. Imagine running down range with 4 or 5 mags with ranger straps hanging from your hands... a bit of a distraction.

I have a few pics from that evolution, I'll post them when I get a chance.

[chefjavier]

SAW is an old weapon and weight too munch. The Marines are looking for a weapon that is able control the ammo. FN and H & K are excellent weapons. They are going back like WWII BAR concept.

[Snoshi]

Bring back MG42 p-)

[usmcprincipal]

While I can't speak from personal experience, my son carried a SAW as a young Marine on his first deployment, which was Afghanistan. His major complaint was the SAW he carried was old and had been refurbished. Consequently, he had problems with it jamming. He's a big guy, so the load didn't bother him.

In Iraq his squad SAW gunners used both the long barrel and short barrel. The short barrel was often used, because many of their operations where in urban environments. Jamming remained a problem, so all the SAW gunners were issued 9mm Berrettas.

Since he's currently deployed, I'm unable to ask him his thoughts; however, he did tell me of an incident that occurred while he was in Haditha. His squad was ambushed and a SAW gunner's high rate of suppressive fire was instrumental in allowing an exposed, wounded Marine to be pulled to safety without additional casualties.

[Ought Six]

One could say that both the RPK and BAR are just "heavy-barrelled assault {or battle} rifles", yet both concepts seemed to work reasonably well as squad automatic weapons within their restrictions. No open bolts, quick-change barrels or 200-round belts. Do you guys think that these were lousy weapons for the SAW task? Could some of these weapons the Marines are testing be as good as the RPK or BAR?

I am not saying 'yea' or 'nay' here. I lack the qualifications or personal experience to provide a meaningful answer. I am just asking the question.

[AroundTheCorner]

sometimes, I really don't get the US military. do these guys up their in the command or the higher rankings even know what the f*ck they are doing. it seems not. They make the military really a joke. From ACU to the Stryker, and now this. C'mon, give me a break. their throwing the money outta the window like it's christmas. I hope that Obama hits them with a big budget cut, so that they stop bying all this crap. Look, other militarys, like the brits for example, don't complain about their equipment. they have the same weapons for centuries and are happy, or atleast they except it.
Even soldiers themself think it's wrong, but NO, they(the big bosses) are not listening. Goch, that really gets on my nerves.

finally I said what I dought

[USMCRTop]

Suck it up and carry a SAW. In my prime I could handle that little beast like a rifle. The answer isn't a replacement, it's more pushups.

yah X2- I carried mine for 2 years and and ya it was a beast, but when ya needed it, it did the job-200 rounds available is a confidence builder- reminds me of an arguement about a tank killer rocket for infantry- doesn't matter the weight, will it kill the tank ?? If it can't do the job , size or weight doesn't matter- Same with this- if you don't have ready firepower, whats the point of heat sinks, or blowback, or how high tech it is

[ceejay]

yah X2- I carried mine for 2 years and and ya it was a beast, but when ya needed it, it did the job-200 rounds available is a confidence builder- reminds me of an arguement about a tank killer rocket for infantry- doesn't matter the weight, will it kill the tank ?? If it can't do the job , size or weight doesn't matter- Same with this- if you don't have ready firepower, whats the point of heat sinks, or blowback, or how high tech it is

agreed.

I am a pretty little guy but carried my FN Minimi without issue overseas. Did a fair stint of foot patrols carrying the M240 too.
Body conditioning makes a big difference. Battle fitness, good preparation of your equipment (ie load bearing etc).
Some of you yanks lads dwarf a guy my size. I dont see what the hell the issue is with it being too heavy?

I'd rather carry it and the extra ammunition than not have a fire support weapon. **** that!

[Rubik]

Suck it up and carry a SAW. In my prime I could handle that little beast like a rifle. The answer isn't a replacement, it's more pushups.

These are words of wisdom.




Aside from the Brits, didn't the Germans try this idea once with their G36? Now they go with MG4, don't they ?

[the_penguin]

These are words of wisdom.




Aside from the Brits, didn't the Germans try this idea once with their G36? Now they go with MG4, don't they ?

Denmark had tried it with their Diemaco LSW in Afghanistan, where 2 LSW replaced 1 Gmg per squad. It didnt work out to well as they fund it very hard to gain local fire superiority, especially if they were up aganist taliban units with a PK machince gun.

And 100 rounds C-mags doesnt work properly under field conditions, they demand a constant and a high level of maintenance at all times.

[boreal]

SAW is an old weapon and weight too munch. The Marines are looking for a weapon that is able control the ammo. FN and H & K are excellent weapons. They are going back like WWII BAR concept.


Compared with M-16´s, the us version of the minimi is a teenager

[JoaMei]

Bring back MG42 p-)

Have you carried that for a longer distance?

MG 3 is fun to shoot but with my low weight I always had to crawl forward 10 cm again after a burst. Precision is not that great. Safety features are also not very modern.

[oldsoak]

How do you mean safety features are not that modern OOI ?

[JoaMei]

The safety button blocks only the trigger, not the mechanism afaik.

[BrianT]

Seems an interesting concept. Right now the SAW is basically a 5.56 machinegun and they mean to replace that position with a rifle. In our current operations, I'd say it's a decent enough idea. You still have machinegun teams for suppressive fire. Hell, I know all our guys carry around 50 rd nutsacks on their SAWs, so ammo capacity isn't that different. It'd be a safer weapon as well. I know a guy who came off the back of a bird, went to **** his weapon and the sear that holds the bolt back had worn down. Nothing like making your prescence known right after an infil.

[freethinker]

I guess it must suck to carry around heavy weapons, body armor and stuff on long patrols. I remember though as a young and fit infantry grunt i had no problem running around with two At-4's on my back, AR and all other stuff. I suppose its hard to keep that level of fitness during long deployments though.

Maybe i just remember things diffrently now that im old and comfy.

[bdique]

The safety button blocks only the trigger, not the mechanism afaik.

don't most safety buttons do that? i think AK is one of those where the bolt gets locked when safe...well I'm pretty sure the FN MAG and the M16, at safe, has the trigger frozen in place...

---===---

the ultimax was kinda designed to not only suppress, but to also hit (or at least get the rounds to land real close) especially due to its controllability...add that on to its light weight it really helped with moving fast to a new position...for the skinny guy at least :)

[Carib]

http://www.youtube.com/?/=fQR_9sye984


embed not working

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQR_9sye984

[D.E. Watters]

the ultimax was dropped dec08, don't mind me saying it but I guess it boiled down to 'buy america' :|


If that were the case, how did HK and FN get the nod?

The Ultimax was sponsored by General Dynamics. If it were just a matter of lobbyists, kickbacks, and/or providing cushy post-retirement jobs as so many imply, GD should have been able to bury the other companies.

[ceejay]

... I know a guy who came off the back of a bird, went to **** his weapon and the sear that holds the bolt back had worn down. Nothing like making your prescence known right after an infil.

oops... :-(
Would suck to have to patrol with the weapon at load state... what happens if you bumped enemy? **** and pray?

[LongShot]

If that were the case, how did HK and FN get the nod?

The Ultimax was sponsored by General Dynamics. If it were just a matter of lobbyists, kickbacks, and/or providing cushy post-retirement jobs as so many imply, GD should have been able to bury the other companies.


HK is now a US owned company...and if it wasn't, the weapon was to be built in the US by H&Ks US subsidariy....the FN competitor is not submitted by FNH its FN-USA.

[Panzermensch]

HK is now a US owned company...and if it wasn't, the weapon was to be built in the US by H&Ks US subsidariy....the FN competitor is not submitted by FNH its FN-USA.
That's new to me. Could you give me a valid source on this issue?

[LongShot]

That's new to me. Could you give me a valid source on this issue?


Mis-read the article about H&Ks US facilities being moved to Columbus GA...Still German owned.

All US sales and service are routed through the US office.

[flanker7]

In the other IAR thread some articles were posted regarding the USMC "philosophy" about the IAR. Several alternatives were tested, amongst which, was what I regard as the most logical, although I have to say that I don't like the whole IAR idea.
That aldernative was, 2 of the squads Fire Teams be equipted with the IAR instead of the SAW, and the 3rd FT(USMC Squads have 3 FT) be some sord of "Heavy" with 2 SAWs and maybe some AT weapons. So, most of the SAWs where kept in the Squad, so as to not loose it's fire power, but moved in a dedicated FT with SAWgunners and Assistant SAWgunners.

[martinexsquaddie]

carried the LSW what a crock of **** as a machine gun actually coming back into favour as a DMR as people have taken and used it in that role and has done the job.
US marines may hit with every round they fire nobody else does though:(

[Fallap]

This might be a silly question, but why are they gonna replace the M249 Wich is a fully automatic machinegun, with what appears to be assault rifles / Carbines??? :S

[Walker-69]

This might be a silly question, but why are they gonna replace the M249 Wich is a fully automatic machinegun, with what appears to be assault rifles / Carbines??? :S

The guns being tested here are made to operate in full auto most of the time. A usual assault rifle or carbine is supposed to operate in semi auto most of the time, with full auto being an option. Single shots are usually the smartest option with a usual rifle or carbine, there lies the subtle difference. Correct me if I'm wrong. As a matter of fact, I am not sure if these four auto rifles even have an option for single shot - someone know the exact details?

EDIT: yeah I guess they can shoot semi-auto as well... I did a bit of research on the HK and the FN, I got the impression that they are either single shot or full auto... but the old BAR was only full auto, am I right?

EDIT 2 - to Fallap; a heavier barrel is just one of the things that can make a rifle better for full auto. If you do some googling on these rifles, you might find more details that make them more like machine guns, for example the "heat sinks".

[Johnnyringo]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=711&pictureid=8622

Here's the AR we tested back in 2000 (center, rear), a couple of the guys tried it out on the different ranges along the 400 series. Notice my squad wasn't TO, and we went to the field SAW heavy... people didn't really complain about humping it either, so long as there were rounds to shoot.

[firemedic]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=711&pictureid=8622

Here's the AR we tested back in 2000 (center, rear), a couple of the guys tried it out on the different ranges along the 400 series. Notice my squad wasn't TO, and we went to the field SAW heavy... people didn't really complain about humping it either, so long as there were rounds to shoot.......This is a badass picture.

[chefjavier]

:roll:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=711&pictureid=8622

Here's the AR we tested back in 2000 (center, rear), a couple of the guys tried it out on the different ranges along the 400 series. Notice my squad wasn't TO, and we went to the field SAW heavy... people didn't really complain about humping it either, so long as there were rounds to shoot.
WOw, Memories when my unit look the same in 80's:roll:

[Tacony]

WTF?! Our SAWs are falling apart and need immediate replacement. This though is ****ing stupid. A mag fed AR for suppression?

[Little J]

Semi-related question... If a whole branch of the armed forces (like the USMC) decided to ditch the m16/m4 in favor of something non AR-15 based (say Sig55x) would the DoD let them or would they be forced to use the same weapons as everyone else?

Ignoring the fact that Colt would have a hissy-fit if it wasnt one of there designs...

[LongShot]

Semi-related question... If a whole branch of the armed forces (like the USMC) decided to ditch the M-16/M-4 in favor of something non AR-15 based (say Sig55x) would the DoD let them or would they be forced to use the same weapons as everyone else?

Ignoring the fact that Colt would have a hissy-fit if it wasnt one of there designs...


Thats a good question...its come close to happening before with the H&K M-8...(US Army). Also, the Beretta pistol (M-9) was adopted by the Air Force before any other branch, the other branches ended up adopting it as well, though it could have gone differently.

I think there were some similar issues with the M-16A1....ultimatly I think its up to the DOD...

[Tanker31B]

Something like the G11 would be a step forward.

During German Army testing of the G11 K2 in the Fall of 1989, new draftees achieved an average of 50% more hits using the G11 over the results with the G3 rifle. The unorthodox shape and operating procedures of the G11 K2 were leared more quickly and easily by the new recruits.
Also under development at HK is a Light Support Weapon (LSW). Firing the same caseless round as the G11 rifle, the LSW is designed to replace the squad's automatic rifle and/or light machine guns. This weapon will have a maximum effective range of 800 meters. The weapon fires from a linkless 300-round box magazine in the weapon's buttstock that contains no springs or feeding components. Fully loaded with 300 rounds, the caseless LSW will weigh less than the current M249 squad automatic weapon (SAW) empty


This reminds of the cross bow replacing the bow.

The Cross bow was accurate, easy to use and easy to train personal, but just didn't have the rate of fire.

Some times if the step ahead in tech is to small, its a step back.

[LongShot]

Something like the G11 would be a step forward.

During German Army testing of the G11 K2 in the Fall of 1989, new draftees achieved an average of 50% more hits using the G11 over the results with the G3 rifle. The unorthodox shape and operating procedures of the G11 K2 were leared more quickly and easily by the new recruits.
Also under development at HK is a Light Support Weapon (LSW). Firing the same caseless round as the G11 rifle, the LSW is designed to replace the squad's automatic rifle and/or light machine guns. This weapon will have a maximum effective range of 800 meters. The weapon fires from a linkless 300-round box magazine in the weapon's buttstock that contains no springs or feeding components. Fully loaded with 300 rounds, the caseless LSW will weigh less than the current M249 squad automatic weapon (SAW) empty


This reminds of the cross bow replacing the bow.

The Cross bow was accurate, easy to use and easy to train personal, but just didn't have the rate of fire.

Some times if the step ahead in tech is to small, its a step back.


Wasnt the G-11 killed by politics alone? Caseless weapons FTW.

[number nine]

SAW is 30 years old, old enough an improvement could be sought, though I fail to see how IAR entries are actually an improvement.
Instead of asking simply for belt fed machinegun lighter than SAW, DoD is sacrificing firepower for mobility. Knight Arms Stoner LMG is 4.5 Kg and that is less than IARs. Look at the site http://www.knightarmco.com/lmg.html I am afraid US DoD is making an epic scale mistake like changing from 30-06 to 308 had been in the fifties.

[D.E. Watters]

HK is now a US owned company...and if it wasn't, the weapon was to be built in the US by H&Ks US subsidariy....the FN competitor is not submitted by FNH its FN-USA.

And if the Ultimax had been chosen, it would have been made in the US as well, mostly likely in General Dynamics' factory in Saco, Maine. So it was not merely a matter of "Buying American" like the other poster implied.

BTW: The MARCORSYSCOM contract announcement named FN Herstal, not FNH USA.

[LongShot]

And if the Ultimax had been chosen, it would have been made in the US as well, mostly likely in General Dynamics' factory in Saco, Maine. So it was not merely a matter of "Buying American" like the other poster implied.

BTW: The MARCORSYSCOM contract announcement named FN Herstal, not FNH USA.


I think we agree with eachother....while the companies may not be American, the weapons will be built in America...

"Buy American" works fine for me when the Americans are making the best product...

[bdique]

And if the Ultimax had been chosen, it would have been made in the US as well, mostly likely in General Dynamics' factory in Saco, Maine. So it was not merely a matter of "Buying American" like the other poster implied.

BTW: The MARCORSYSCOM contract announcement named FN Herstal, not FNH USA.

my bad for jumping to hasty conclusions... :oops:

[Munkz707]

That Maj. Smith is an effing idiot. The comment he made about the mentality issue where 30 rd mags are concerned smacks of jackass.

[QUOTE]“The biggest problem is it’s a mentality issue, and the issue [that] a 30-round magazine will go through too quickly,” Cantwell said. “That’s very true — if you use the same mentality that we use right now with the SAW, which is to pull the trigger at everything."[\QUOTE]

[QUOTE]"There will be some training that goes into this,” he said. “We’re looking for a well-aimed shot, and then occasionally shooting a burst into a troop formation or an area target as opposed to what we do now, where we’re much more (laying) area fire with the SAW.”[\QUOTE]

[madmike09]

i heard the marines were getting a new saw and i have'nt seen anything else about it. i figured somebody here has.

[Firefly26]

i heard the marines were getting a new saw and i have'nt seen anything else about it. i figured somebody here has.

There is a thread, many in fact. Use the search button or google.

[flanker7]

Search for "IAR"

[Xmith]

Do you mean Infantry Automatic Rifle (IAR)?

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/10/22/colt-infantry-automatic-rifle-iar/

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1186

[Firefly26]

And if the search function is being a pain in the ass, google the terms and add "militaryphotos" and the first hits will give it to you.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=150729

[madmike09]

that's it. thanks. i searched for iar did'nt find anything. i should have tried "infantry automatic rifle". it looks sweet. they said recon and light inf willget it.

[madmike09]

seems like they would still need like a 50 to a 100 round box mag. 30 rounds goes quick.

[LineDoggie]

seems like they would still need like a 50 to a 100 round box mag. 30 rounds goes quick.


Ya Think?.................................................

[deagle]

why do the USMC need new saws ? are they fighting in the woods or forests ??

(yea, i know, maybe poor attempt at cheap humor pre-lunch...just gotta make it for 1/2 hour).

[Laworkerbee]

"Marine" should be capitalized, always.

[spyguy]

I'd always hoped it would look something like this. It could have different barrel options etc for different applications but still belt fed. You could always use the patrol pouch too.


http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/84/shrike556cqblmg003ws5.jpg

http://www.aresdefense.com/product.html

[zulu261]

How many rounds can you put through the barrel before you get cook offs?

Go for the MG4. Hardly jams at all, barrel is changeable and the weight is ok for a machinegun. And it's damn accurate with integrated scope.

[Indiana Jones]

How many rounds can you put through the barrel before you get cook offs?

Go for the MG4. Hardly jams at all, barrel is changeable and the weight is ok for a machinegun. And it's damn accurate with integrated scope.
Such a selection would defeat the purpose, seeing as the MG4 is very much in the same class as the M 249.
Of course it can be debated whether the concept of the "IAR" is sensible in the first place.

[James]

I'd always hoped it would look something like this. It could have different barrel options etc for different applications but still belt fed. You could always use the patrol pouch too.


http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/84/shrike556cqblmg003ws5.jpg

http://www.aresdefense.com/product.html

Whatever the USMC chooses it needs to acquire them at a greater rate than 2 or 3 a year.

[SMGLee]

I'd always hoped it would look something like this. It could have different barrel options etc for different applications but still belt fed. You could always use the patrol pouch too.


http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/84/shrike556cqblmg003ws5.jpg

http://www.aresdefense.com/product.html

the energy required to pull the belt and cycle the bolt, the ultra short travel of the carrier keeps rocking the gun to pieces. that is why this thing has not been widely accepted, great concept BUT......

I initally throw down deposite on it, after two years, i figure I get my cash back...still have well over 5000 links sitting in my garage...

[Van Gogh]

i have visions of the colt 6940 with a huge banana clip. badass.

[Birger]

I don't get why people are talking about a step up in tech, it seems to be an old concept, which belongs in the past IMO:

http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg68-e.htm

My opinion after using this type of weapon (diemaco lsw) the past year:
It's like taking the worst things from a rifle and the worst things of an mg, and combining it. Magazine fed, closed bolt, heavy weight, unbalanced due to all the weight gained compared to an AR is all centered on or in front of your support hand.

[AroundTheCorner]

I'd always hoped it would look something like this. It could have different barrel options etc for different applications but still belt fed. You could always use the patrol pouch too.


http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/84/shrike556cqblmg003ws5.jpg

http://www.aresdefense.com/product.html

looks like the perfect weapon to me. I would get one of those myself if had the money :)

[James]

looks like the perfect weapon to me. I would get one of those myself if had the money :)

You should research this system and the company.

[AroundTheCorner]

You should research this system and the company.

so did the USMC test it? and is something wrong with the company?

[Bro Jangles]

so did the USMC test it? and is something wrong with the company?


the energy required to pull the belt and cycle the bolt, the ultra short travel of the carrier keeps rocking the gun to pieces. that is why this thing has not been widely accepted, great concept BUT......

I initally throw down deposite on it, after two years, i figure I get my cash back...still have well over 5000 links sitting in my garage... If SMGLee says its no go, it probably isnt.

[AroundTheCorner]

ahhhhhh, ok. now I get it.

[Johnnyringo]

"The idea to replace the SAW dates back to August 2001, Cantwell said, before the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were on the horizon. Tired of lugging around the SAW, grunts with 2nd Battalion, 7th Marines, in Twentynine Palms, Calif., purchased three commercial automatic rifle variants and pitted them against the belt-fed beast.

“What they found was that the SAW had definite advantages, but it also had definite disadvantages, and the two (disadvantages) that they noted were employment speed and accuracy,” Cantwell said. “So they recommended that we go for an automatic rifle for infantry units.”"

Again... I remember back when we tested the "new" systems... I can't think of a Marine that was worried about accuracy with the SAW and "employment speed" because of its weight...

I don't know who this Cantwell guy is, but he didn't talk to the Marines of 2/7 when this testing was going on....

[Pete031]

Well there is the new FN Minimi 7.62 ;p

Mark 48...... Awesome gun.

Mag fed LMG's suck!!

[LineDoggie]

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/xml/news/2009/02/marine_newsaw_020109w/020109mc_saw_graphic.JPG (http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/xml/news/2009/02/marine_newsaw_020109w/020109mc_saw_graphic.JPG)
Chris Broz

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2009/02/marine_newsaw_020109w/

So after all this, the choice is a Fixed Barrel, Bottom feeding Magazine Automatic Rifle?


A 5.56 B.A.R. Wannabe with all the inherent issues the BAR suffered from.

[DANGER_CLOSE]

the only thing to replace the SAW should be another SAW. maybe with a shorter barrel and collapsible stock. lighten the thing up a bit even.

[BlackFlag]

Funny how things come full circle. mag->belt->mag.

[RSone]

The RNLMC(Dutch Marine Corps) uses the Diemaco LSW, Also known as the LOAW over here(Licht Ondersteunend Automatisch Wapen-Light Supporting Automatic Weapon)

It's my understanding that the average Marinier is not very happy with it.
The Corps is trying to develop a reliable C-mag for it, but i haven't heard a lot about it.

I'm not in the know about the USMC requirements/needs, but it seems to me they're making a mistake going with a 30 rd standard.

[Eztyga]

I put this model forward, but they didn't seem interested. However, Doris the tea lady was well impressed, stroking it with some reverence. :)

BTW, best not to ask for sugar, you usually end up with one lump or two of ash off the end of her fag

[junglejim]

Can somebody say "Emperors new clothes"

[matsalleh18]

New Weapons they say?,why is it mostly based on the m16 rifle?which is already darn great weapon?

[matsalleh18]

it would be good if they adopted the shrike im in favor of that.

[RSone]

The Intarwebs sez that Ares isn't exactly a reliable source for the Shrike.Lots of trouble in the order/manufacturing process.

[dacanadianbomb]

Just replace them with upgraded Mk46 from HK.
Not that I have a clue what I am talking about.
And replace the GPMG with the Mk48.High weapons parts commonality for GPMG and SAW gunner for the win? me envisions so.

[Pete031]

Just replace them with upgraded Mk46 from HK.
Not that I have a clue what I am talking about.
And replace the GPMG with the Mk48.High weapons parts commonality for GPMG and SAW gunner for the win? me envisions so.

No, the MK48 is not a replacement for the GPMG.... Doesn't have the range.... But to replace the Minimi with it would be GTG.

[kopema]

“What they found was that the SAW had definite advantages, but it also had definite disadvantages, and the two (disadvantages) that they noted were employment speed and accuracy,” Cantwell said. “So they recommended that we go for an automatic rifle for infantry units.”"

Again... I remember back when we tested the "new" systems... I can't think of a Marine that was worried about accuracy with the SAW and "employment speed" because of its weight...

Well, du-uh! Employment speed and accuracy are what the M-16's are there for. A hybrid weapon - slower than an M-16, with less sustainable firepower than the SAW - is going to give you the worst of both worlds.

This sounds like what we call "A solution to a problem that doesn't exist."

The only complaints I ever heard about the SAW had to do with penetrating power. I think a lot of troops would trade a lower firing rate for a bigger round that can punch through cover better.

[Hispeed1]

Well, du-uh! Employment speed and accuracy are what the M-16's are there for. A hybrid weapon - slower than an M-16, with less sustainable firepower than the SAW - is going to give you the worst of both worlds.
This sounds like what we call "A solution to a problem that doesn't exist."
The only complaints I ever heard about the SAW had to do with penetrating power. I think a lot of troops would trade a lower firing rate for a bigger round that can punch through cover better.

Well stated.

[Alpha-17]

The only complaints I ever heard about the SAW had to do with penetrating power. I think a lot of troops would trade a lower firing rate for a bigger round that can punch through cover better.

Which would mean adopting a new round, which would either mean that SAWs and M4s can't use the same ammo, or better yet, the M4 is replaced by a weapon shooting the new, heavier round.

[asch]

it would be good if they adopted the shrike im in favor of that.
what's cons?

[Pete031]

what's cons?

opposite of pros.... Bad things....

[dacanadianbomb]

No, the MK48 is not a replacement for the GPMG.... Doesn't have the range.... But to replace the Minimi with it would be GTG.


Touche sir, you have ze points,ja.
Wait or am I mixing my Mk's up here, Mk48 an almost SAW in 7,62 and Mk46 is a "improved" SAW
or ?

[kopema]

Which would mean adopting a new round, which would either mean that SAWs and M4s can't use the same ammo, or better yet, the M4 is replaced by a weapon shooting the new, heavier round.

I'm assuming the M16/M4 system isn't going anywhere. But if it were, the opposite route might be a better direction: an even lighter and quicker weapon than the M4.

I read an article a while back (I think by a British officer?) that posed an interesting suggestion: Basically, take away all the assault rifles and sidearms and give every soldier a PDW (e.g., a P-90), to allow more room for specialized equipment. For example, one guy in the squad carries a P-90 AND a light machine gun; qualified marksmen would have an accurized rifle AND a P90; other guys have a P-90 and an anti-tank weapon, grenade launcher, communications gear, medical kit, etc.

Basically, the idea would be that every soldier would have an ideal weapon for dealing with CQB up to 200 yards (with lots and lots of interchangeable ammo), and then specialized tools for dealing with everything else.

[LongShot]

I'm assuming the M16/M4 system isn't going anywhere. But if it were, the opposite route might be a better direction: an even lighter and quicker weapon than the M4.

I read an article a while back (I think by a British officer?) that posed an interesting suggestion: Basically, take away all the assault rifles and sidearms and give every soldier a PDW (e.g., a P-90), to allow more room for specialized equipment. For example, one guy in the squad carries a P-90 AND a light machine gun; qualified marksmen would have an accurized rifle AND a P90; other guys have a P-90 and an anti-tank weapon, grenade launcher, communications gear, medical kit, etc.

Basically, the idea would be that every soldier would have an ideal weapon for dealing with CQB up to 200 yards (with lots and lots of interchangeable ammo), and then specialized tools for dealing with everything else.


That wouldnt fly on so many levels.

[TyroneBiggums]

Sorry if i missed it somewhere, But has there been any testing or evaluating of the M240 E6? (With the shorter barrel and the retractable M249 style stock etc. as seen in the FNH catalogue)

[matsalleh18]

im in favor of any weapon that will save more soldiers lifes and wont jam in desperate close quarters.

[Alpha-17]

im in favor of any weapon that will save more soldiers lifes and wont jam in desperate close quarters.
Agreed. And, take more enemy lives.

[StukaJr]

it would be good if they adopted the shrike im in favor of that.

You can't seriously suggest a system that failed a limited production run and didn't go beyond few marketing videos (and that's with pre-order list a mile long) because of fundamental flaws in the design?

[SMGLee]

That wouldnt fly on so many levels.


Yes it is would.... in Ghost Recon!! :bash:

[SMGLee]

Sorry if i missed it somewhere, But has there been any testing or evaluating of the M240 E6? (With the shorter barrel and the retractable M249 style stock etc. as seen in the FNH catalogue)

Still way too heavy...

[LongShot]

Yes it is would.... in Ghost Recon!! :bash:


Dont you start with me Numba wanhttp://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i192/longshotink/emoticons/emot-jihad.gif

[3rdMillhouse]

im in favor of any weapon that will save more soldiers lifes and wont jam in desperate close quarters.

How 'bout the Amarmatc 150rds drum-mag? Has anyone gotten the chance to fire some few thousand rds through one of those? It'd certainly address the complaints regarding having a SAW gunner with a carbine and only having a 30rds mag.

[matsalleh18]

You can't seriously suggest a system that failed a limited production run and didn't go beyond few marketing videos (and that's with pre-order list a mile long) because of fundamental flaws in the design?


in the magazine i read says it is a great weapons,maybe my views may be wrong.
look in the last page what i wrote.

[StukaJr]

in the magazine i read says it is a great weapons,maybe my views may be wrong.
look in the last page what i wrote.

How old is the article - there hasn't been any new hands on reviews for over two years now and no pre-orders have been filled (nor has the weapon undergone third party evaluation or been contracted by any government agency). You seem to have come to a conclussion that the particular weapon can do no wrong based on what amounts to a manufacturer's advertisement - for a weapon that hasn't even left the production line (not for the lack of interest).

You are suggesting to address practical problem with theoretical solution - a fundamentally flawed principle of putting a carriage before the horse.

[spyguy]

the energy required to pull the belt and cycle the bolt, the ultra short travel of the carrier keeps rocking the gun to pieces. that is why this thing has not been widely accepted, great concept BUT......


Understood. I'm under the impression that if the Corps set parameters for a weapon much like that one they might get some better designs. It's just an idea.

If the major issue is the magazine with these IAR platforms, the private sector will likely come up with something innovative? Especially if there is talk of some kind of large government contract. Why these two things can't go on simultaneously, I have no idea.



I read an article a while back (I think by a British officer?) that posed an interesting suggestion: Basically, take away all the assault rifles and sidearms and give every soldier a PDW (e.g., a P-90), to allow more room for specialized equipment. For example, one guy in the squad carries a P-90 AND a light machine gun; qualified marksmen would have an accurized rifle AND a P90; other guys have a P-90 and an anti-tank weapon, grenade launcher, communications gear, medical kit, etc.

Basically, the idea would be that every soldier would have an ideal weapon for dealing with CQB up to 200 yards (with lots and lots of interchangeable ammo), and then specialized tools for dealing with everything else.

I'd like to read that report.

It has drawbacks but no one idea would be great for every situation, I think this idea could have some definite traction for the right kind of application and environment.

[matsalleh18]

How old is the article - there hasn't been any new hands on reviews for over two years now and no pre-orders have been filled (nor has the weapon undergone third party evaluation or been contracted by any government agency). You seem to have come to a conclussion that the particular weapon can do no wrong based on what amounts to a manufacturer's advertisement - for a weapon that hasn't even left the production line (not for the lack of interest).

You are suggesting to address practical problem with theoretical solution - a fundamentally flawed principle of putting a carriage before the horse.

well the magazine i bought 2 weeks ago.but im not sure how old that info is.
correct me if im wrong about the system.

[Little J]

I read an article a while back (I think by a British officer?) that posed an interesting suggestion: Basically, take away all the assault rifles and sidearms and give every soldier a PDW (e.g., a P-90), to allow more room for specialized equipment. For example, one guy in the squad carries a P-90 AND a light machine gun; qualified marksmen would have an accurized rifle AND a P90; other guys have a P-90 and an anti-tank weapon, grenade launcher, communications gear, medical kit, etc.

Basically, the idea would be that every soldier would have an ideal weapon for dealing with CQB up to 200 yards (with lots and lots of interchangeable ammo), and then specialized tools for dealing with everything else.

Sounds like good reasoning for using a bullpup weapon with easy (user) changed barrels. Think about it, barrels from 12 (cqb) up to 24 inchs (Sniper) long, multi calibre. all in a weapon no longer than an M4...

[captainahab]

you can change the barrel of an AUG in 10 seconds...theres is also a heavy version with heavier barrel

[James]

well the magazine i bought 2 weeks ago.but im not sure how old that info is.
correct me if im wrong about the system.

You're wrong about the system.

[James]

you can change the barrel of an AUG in 10 seconds...theres is also a heavy version with heavier barrel

I wonder how many soldiers carry extra rifle barrels around.

[captainahab]

well, MG crews carry barrels, don't they?

[Laworkerbee]

well, MG crews carry barrels, don't they?

Except this isn't supposed to be a crew served system p-)

[SilentType]

Yeah...not exactly blown away by the choices there (no pun intended). I understand the issues with the M249, but seems to me the current alternatives aren't going to exactly equal a wonder SAW replacement. I don't know, have to see more info I guess, but the jury is still out on this one for me. I will say this I think it would be very important to have it shoot from both a closed and open bolt if possible.

I mean obviously from the weight I can tell they're running heavy barrels, but what about some kind of QC barrel change system just in case?

[captainahab]

Except this isn't supposed to be a crew served system p-)


yeah but an AUG barrel is not that heavy... I think you could carry it yourself. Don't know how it is handled in the austrian forces, though. Don't evenn kow if it is widely used....

[kopema]

Sounds like good reasoning for using a bullpup weapon with easy (user) changed barrels. Think about it, barrels from 12 (cqb) up to 24 inchs (Sniper) long, multi calibre. all in a weapon no longer than an M4...


I've never really understood how a barrel swapped in the field can be accurate. Machine gun, sure. But wouldn't a sniper rifle need to be re-sighted after changing barrels?

[HK in AK]

Having used both the Negev and the PKM, I would recommend they consider adding to the list. The Negev is a SAW look-alike built on a design of a Galil, and the PKM is just a beast. The only problem with the PKM is it is a pain to carry lots of ammo with the 7.62 x 54R round. The Negev is 5.56 and can when needed use M16 magazines - adapter shipped with rifle. I will say the Negev has the benefit of semi-auto fire, if needed.

Just my two cents and a donut.

[asch]

so we have a solution! p-)
arm them Marines with PKM's. winwin.

[Bro Jangles]

so we have a solution! p-)
arm them Marines with PKM's. winwin.
CAll congress, problem solved.

[Karaahmetoglu]

So the POF contestent:

http://www.pof-usa.com/gallery/IAR13a.jpg


And the LWRC (Cannot find picture) are out?

[SMGLee]

So the POF contestent:




And the LWRC (Cannot find picture) are out?

YES.....

Two Colt, one HK, one FN are the only selection left from the latest down select.

[Karaahmetoglu]

SMG lee you tried out all the Gas Piston systems and which one was your favorite and why where the POF and the LWRC rifles not your choice?

[crazyman]

I think its an interesting theoretical idea: an AR that fires from the closed bolt on semi, and open on auto (like the colt designs, if i remember right) at least eliminates the heat problem.

Personally I like having a belt-fed weapon around at the squad level, but on the other hand I see the point in trying this out. Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing this design feature go into a weapon to replace the M4. It would have been handy when I was running around with 10 other americans on our own constantly while I was on a MiTT. we didnt have SAWs around, so we would have been stuck using our M4's for everything. being able to go open bolt would have been a nice stop-gap measure

[jklv]

Suck it up and carry a SAW. In my prime I could handle that little beast like a rifle. The answer isn't a replacement, it's more pushups.
I agree.

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[Flagg]

you can change the barrel of an AUG in 10 seconds...theres is also a heavy version with heavier barrel

My dead grandmother could probably change a IW Steyr barrel in under 5 seconds :)

Not really an issue as I don't think many units issued with Steyrs use them as LSWs.


I tend to agree with James.....more pushups!

But from humping around the standard SAW/C9 LSW minus that top heatshield thingie, I like it....I think it's a good weapon system.

Only having used the standard version, I wonder if the Para model could be further modified to put less essential bits and bobs on a diet if possible.

Surely enough grams could be shed with replacement parts to have a decent impact making it shorter and lighter enough.

Even if refurb parts or new manufactured SAW/C9 would cost a fair bit of coin to give it a high tech diet the REAL cost might be quite affordable as the need for new training, logistics, etc would be moot.

But I'm biased, I like the C9......I like it even more going downhill and the fact I don't have to carry it anymore while still retaining ownership of it :)

Now as an amateur firearms enthusiast, and as already pointed out by a number of folks in this thread, I don't get the firing from a closed bolt thing for an LSW.

Some of those options, from 12,000km away and not in the know, look like they are suffering from gender confusion.....it's like they are the byproduct of a bad night out on the piss between a proper designated marksman rifle and a proper light support weapon...producing a flock of mutant bastards.

[highdiver_2000]

SMG lee you tried out all the Gas Piston systems and which one was your favorite and why where the POF and the LWRC rifles not your choice?


x2, I would like your views on the Ultimax 100 vs the rest of the contenders.

[SMGLee]

x2, I would like your views on the Ultimax 100 vs the rest of the contenders.

Ultimax was one of the entries provided by General Dynamics, it was an early on favorite and one of my personal favorite......but it was not part of the downselect winners.



SMG lee you tried out all the Gas Piston systems and which one was your favorite and why where the POF and the LWRC rifles not your choice?

I did not have access to a POF, but we did have a LWRC M6A3 available. I will update in my next write up...

[AroundTheCorner]

I have good idea: why not just make the M16 and M4 full auto. OH look, problem solved

[Bro Jangles]

I have good idea: why not just make the M16 and M4 full auto. OH look, problem solved
damn, was it that easy? :roll:

[AroundTheCorner]

damn, was it that easy? :roll:

accually it was. :)

[Bro Jangles]

accually it was. :)one could argue that is what they are doing, but originally the requirements were for a open/closed bolt gun, with quick change barrel/ heavy barrel, and was capable of using stanag mags. which was why people were pulling for the ultimax.

[AroundTheCorner]

ahhhh, the ultimax story. never really informed myself about that weapon, but I think the Marines wouldn't go with it anyways

[asch]

ahhhh, the ultimax story. never really informed myself about that weapon, but I think the Marines wouldn't go with it anyways
people usually need some information, to form them opinions.

[AroundTheCorner]

I wasn't talking about the Ultimax

[highdiver_2000]

one could argue that is what they are doing, but originally the requirements were for a open/closed bolt gun, with quick change barrel/ heavy barrel, and was capable of using stanag mags. which was why people were pulling for the ultimax.

Yes and No. Yes, Ultimax 100 takes STANAG mags. But they needs to be modified first. It needs 2 extra holes or it won't fit.

The holes are for pawls to hold onto the 100 round magazine.

[Andy-M]

The push to include Marines in the process hasn’t stopped grumbling across the Corps. Many grunts question the wisdom of reducing the number of SAWs, light machine guns with a 5.56mm, 200-round belt that allows Marines to unleash a tremendous volume of fire when threatened. The IAR will employ the same 5.56mm, 30-round magazine used with the Corps’ main service weapons, the M16A4 rifle and M4 carbine.

“My big concern right now is that loss of fire,” said Staff Sgt. Craig Wilcox, an infantry unit leader who deployed to Afghanistan twice and Iraq once, and is now a combat instructor at the Camp Lejeune, N.C.-based School of Infantry-East. “We’re taught from day one that the SAW is the center of the squad itself. When you’re looking at dropping all those rounds, you’re going to lose your ability to maneuver and fire as quickly and efficiently as we have done in the past,” Wilcox said.

It’s a long-running debate in the Corps — even in the community that made the decision, said Patrick Cantwell, a former captain who serves as the Corps’ small arms capability officer.

Should the Corps cut weight to increase mobility? And if so, what should a new weapon offer?

What about one of the original contenders for the SAW program, the Stoner 86, now updated to the KAC LMG? Lightweight and yet still able to take 200 round belts.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a188/dythel/KACStonerLMG.jpg
http://www.knightarmco.com/lmg.html


perhaps with a longer barrel and gripod it may have been a contender.

[BrianT]

I believe they are actually trying to get away from belt-fed weapons for the AR position. Not sure if you didn't notice the selection of other weapons.

[Andy-M]

I believe they are actually trying to get away from belt-fed weapons for the AR position. Not sure if you didn't notice the selection of other weapons.

yes, I noticed, but I also read the rest of the thread with peoples concerns about the lack of firepower in those choices and also what was said in the quote I highlighted.

[D.E. Watters]

What about one of the original contenders for the SAW program, the Stoner 86, now updated to the KAC LMG? Lightweight and yet still able to take 200 round belts.


FWIW: The ARES LMG (AKA: Stoner 86) didn't even exist at the time of the US Army SAW trials during the 1970s.

Many years later, the KAC version did see head to head trials against the M249 SPW. Note which one was adopted as the Mk 46 Mod 0.

[Andy-M]

FWIW: The ARES LMG (AKA: Stoner 86) didn't even exist at the time of the US Army SAW trials during the 1970s.

Many years later, the KAC version did see head to head trials against the M249 SPW. Note which one was adopted as the Mk 46 Mod 0.

yep, just looked it up, you're right, it was put up against the Mk46 not the original SAW. Funny enough I googled it and it came up with a link from this site, should have done a bit more research. :-(

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=999

[freethinker]

I've never really understood how a barrel swapped in the field can be accurate. Machine gun, sure. But wouldn't a sniper rifle need to be re-sighted after changing barrels?

No need to change barrel on a sniper rifle so it doesnt matter.

[asch]

No need to change barrel on a sniper rifle so it doesnt matter.
that' why they have a changeable barrels on them TRG rifles?

[LineDoggie]

I have good idea: why not just make the M16 and M4 full auto. OH look, problem solved

IIRC, Wasnt that one of the Issues? that USSF were using their M4A1's like SAW's leading to higher malfunction, wear out rates?

[Caduceus]

I think that the Heckler & Koch contender, the HK 416. is the best choice. I base this thinking on the HK 416 short stroke gas piston, the fact it only had 233 failures in a 60,000 round tests, and because of it's very light weight. I think the weight should be a dominate feature. Besides, who doesn't like H & K firearms?p-)

[SMGLee]

KAC LMG were just too expensive to manufacture in mass.....especially compare to the FN Mk46...but there are a few Spec Ops group in europe that are running limited number of KAC LMG...

The KAC LMG are also going through a redesign to make the manufacture process simpler for future requirements.

[HK in AK]

so we have a solution! p-)
arm them Marines with PKM's. winwin.

Anyone else have experience with the PKM?

[AroundTheCorner]

I think that the Heckler & Koch contender, the HK 416. is the best choice. I base this thinking on the HK 416 short stroke gas piston, the fact it only had 233 failures in a 60,000 round tests, and because of it's very light weight. I think the weight should be a dominate feature. Besides, who doesn't like H & K firearms?p-)

hahaha. the 416 and lightweight? hahaha

[Caduceus]

Anyone else have experience with the PKM?
I've talked to an Russian that has and he told me that the PKM is an excellent medium machine gun but an awful SAW due to it's weight. However speaking of Russian SAWs there's the new Pecheneg which is taking over as the SAW in the Russian Army. However, it's heavy at 8.7 Kg.. Here's some photos.

[Caduceus]

Does anyone know the date that the USMC will announce the winner in this competition?p-)

[asch]

Anyone else have experience with the PKM?
to be serious, that sh!t is too heavy. we used to have a sort of punishment for men who fuk up things - a little 10 km run to shooting range with PKM and double cans. done it once. almost spit out my lungs.

[dobrodan]

to be serious, that sh!t is too heavy. we used to have a sort of punishment for men who fuk up things - a little 10 km run to shooting range with PKM and double cans. done it once. almost spit out my lungs.

Well, you could try to do the same thing with an MG3...

I have used the MG3 as a SAW, and the PKM would be like heaven in comparison...

[HK in AK]

to be serious, that sh!t is too heavy. we used to have a sort of punishment for men who fuk up things - a little 10 km run to shooting range with PKM and double cans. done it once. almost spit out my lungs.


Yep, like I said in my first post, the PKM is great but it is PITA to carry lots of ammo. But it beats an MG3.....lol

[Caduceus]

hahaha. the 416 and lightweight? hahaha In WWII, the Japanese machine guns all had only 5 round stripper clips which seemed to work well. You put the stripper clips into the hopper of the machine gun.p-)

[Hippo]

please stop posting Caduceus

[windoto]

whate ever hapend to the xm8 project it had a good iar/lmg/dmr

[JC0352]

whate ever hapend to the xm8 project it had a good iar/lmg/dmr

it was scrapped

[mhpr262]

In WWII, the Japanese machine guns all had only 5 round stripper clips which seemed to work well. You put the stripper clips into the hopper of the machine gun.p-)


I, too, would rather be watching a stripper clip on youtube than lugging a belt-fed Russian BAR around. Or am I confusing something here?