Question for the Juice...

[California Joe]

I just had the movie "Cast a Giant Shadow" on where Kirk Douglas plays Lt Col David "Mickey" Marcus during the wars in Palestine to establish Israel. How is he thought of in Israel today? Is he included in the history classes in school? I realize that it is an old Hollywood version of the conflict but it is a very positive portrait of him and Israel in general, just curious....

[RoyB]

I can tell you that I didn't learn about him in school.. and that's sad.
Only shows you how bad the education system is bad in here, and I mean it.
I only heard of him through other sources.. definitely not in school.

[California Joe]

That movie is my only real frame of referrence for him. But if he accomplished half of what they portrayed in that film you'd think he'd be a very significant figure in modern Israeli history.

[kahn267]

That movie is my only real frame of referrence for him. But if he accomplished half of what they portrayed in that film you'd think he'd be a very significant figure in modern Israeli history.

I learnt about him on a tour in Isreal
theres alot of Israeli history that is well documented and put in museums and stuff, dont know a thing about school though - they always seem to be on strikes anyway

[Mr.Flint]

Learned about him during High School History field trip. Not a part of a general curriculum.

The Ministry of Ed. in Israel, is a nest of dimwitted, poorly educated idiots.
Was so in my time, doubtful that it changed.

[Kletterbuxe]

Wasn´t that the movie, where they desperately tried to build a road to get the troops to the font ?

[California Joe]

Yes, they had to build a switchback in order to finish a road over a mountain to satisfy the UN mandate in order to come to the aid of beseiged Jerusalem.

[Kaplanr]

Wasn´t that the movie, where they desperately tried to build a road to get the troops to the font ?

It's still there, ironically it's called the "Burma Road" as a tribute to the real Burma Road. Decent write up here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Road_(Israel)

Joe, no he doesn't have the place in the curriculum or the national memory that he probably should. In comparison to at least the memorials and public works in the US, he has less status than Lafayette, Pulaski or Kościuszko. They at least get mentioned in textbooks, even if they're not really studied.

In general, the IDF and the "official" historians only started giving overseas volunteers from that period the acknowledgment they deserved as Israel's 50th birthday celebrations got under way. It's not just Marcus, it's the whole range of volunteers, not all Jewish, who came, served, and mostly returned home. A handful did stay and continued helping structure the IDF, but even their contributions are understated. From the other side, some of the volunteers may have wanted their efforts unpublicized because of then existing neutrality laws.

I think there are two principal reasons for this. The first is the necessity to create national icons and national heros, and the second has to do with the importance of the Zionist ethos in the early days of the state. That people came to help and serve is great, that they left is an ideological blot.

Here are some pretty good sites that give a lot of history of the overseas' volunteers in Israel's War of Independence.

http://www.israelvets.com/home.html
http://www.sabranet.com/machal/english.html
http://www.machalmuseum.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=frontpage&Itemid=1

[Hispeed1]

Hmmm... I'll need to check that movie out, thanks.

[ZARDOZ]

That is a pretty good movie, and also very provocative considering it was made in 1966. For example, the excange between Kirk Douglas and John Wayne (This film has everybody in it) at the party where Wayne is talking about "war for oil". Another interesting twist is the ending (based on actual events, or so I believe) which is not a "Puppy dog licking the face" ending.

It too (the movie) just came to my attention, and ironically just recently there was an obituary on an American pilot who aided Israel during that time. I wonder if Frank Sinatra's character was based on him?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/12/24/america/24pardons.php

"Charlie Winters was an unlikely soldier in the fight for a Jewish state 60 years ago. An Irish Protestant from Boston, he took up the clandestine cause from his perch in Miami and helped ferry military planes to Israeli fighters, even flying a B-17 bomber across the Atlantic Ocean himself in 1948."

Israel should give these people more credit. They believed, they sacrificed.

[kahn267]

Dont feel bad
even people like Muki Betser isnt learnt about and his one of the best soldiers in Israel history

eg. He was the guy that was in Entebbe + contributed alot to its planning having been an instructor for Idi Amin's troops

[California Joe]

That is a pretty good movie, and also very provocative considering it was made in 1966. For example, the excange between Kirk Douglas and John Wayne (This film has everybody in it) at the party where Wayne is talking about "war for oil". Another interesting twist is the ending (based on actual events, or so I believe) which is not a "Puppy dog licking the face" ending.

It too (the movie) just came to my attention, and ironically just recently there was an obituary on an American pilot who aided Israel during that time. I wonder if Frank Sinatra's character was based on him?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/12/24/america/24pardons.php

"Charlie Winters was an unlikely soldier in the fight for a Jewish state 60 years ago. An Irish Protestant from Boston, he took up the clandestine cause from his perch in Miami and helped ferry military planes to Israeli fighters, even flying a B-17 bomber across the Atlantic Ocean himself in 1948."

Israel should give these people more credit. They believed, they sacrificed.

That's interesting. I wonder if the Scottish sounding "engineer", that I think they said was in the Guards, that helps them build the switchback is based on an actual character too.

You're right about the ending.

It's an epic sort of film that is chock full of pro Israel sentiment. That seems rather at odds with the attitudes of many in modern Hollywood.

[Bombtrack]

You're right CJ, Kirk Douglas should be part of the curriculum.

[California Joe]

Shut it you. It's a good movie.

[I can't think of a name]

I just saw "Exodus" with Paul Newman on TCM. Long movie based on Leon Uris' Book. One of Uris' composite characters is sort of based on Marcus.

[nemowork]

As a distraction from the point of this thread, the Guards engineer officer on the Burma road is played by Gordon Jackson, a famous character actor from Britain in WW2 morale boosters such as San Demetrio, London and comedies like Whiskey Galore he had a late life blossoming in TV serials like The Professionals (ask a Brit how to drive over a cardboard box) and Upstairs Downstairs and a seriously effortlessly cool dude!

[Pete031]

You're right CJ, Kirk Douglas should be part of the curriculum.

LOL.... Good one.