Are we repeating history?

[Rossdobby]

It seems to me that the international stage is once again making dramatic changes. Faster then ever our world is changing some of us do not even realize untill way after the fact. The once might US economy has almost flatlined and everyday we get even worse news about it. It seems as if it will never recover. Alot of people think that recessions come and go and while yes this is true I think alot of people aren't getting the fact that this is the largest financial drop in our history. Whole industries are laying off people by the ten of thousands and it doesnt seem to be ending. Even were I'm from Alberta which is one of the strongest economic regions in the world we are feeling the pinch. Now I can only remember one other time in history were things seems this bad and that was the 1930's.

We are seeing old enemies come back and new ones rise. Russia is re-gaining its sphere of influence. China is bolstering its military capabilities and starting to exert its influence over asia. Iran is believed to be developing nuclear weapons and we all know how much they hate the jews. Radical islam is stretching the globe and these is almost no place untouched by terrorism.

We are watching a main fuel supply peak we may have offset the actual peak by throwing ourselves into the current economic crisis but non the less it will happen.

ALmost no one denies global warming wether man made our natural it posses a threat to us. Already climates arounnd the world especially in the northern and southern hemispheres are changing rapidly.


So now I ask you what even got us out of the great depression? That would be WW2. We are seeing powers rise that can rival the United States. We are heading into what looks to be another depression. So what event is gonna be the even that will help us rise again? I hope its not WW3.

[Hippie Homer]

We may not see it coming but it seems as if we're so close to another depression and it is scary.

[commanding]

It seems to me that the international stage is once again making dramatic changes. Faster then ever our world is changing some of us do not even realize untill way after the fact. The once might US economy has almost flatlined and everyday we get even worse news about it. It seems as if it will never recover. Alot of people think that recessions come and go and while yes this is true I think alot of people aren't getting the fact that this is the largest financial drop in our history. Whole industries are laying off people by the ten of thousands and it doesnt seem to be ending. Even were I'm from Alberta which is one of the strongest economic regions in the world we are feeling the pinch. Now I can only remember one other time in history were things seems this bad and that was the 1930's.

We are seeing old enemies come back and new ones rise. Russia is re-gaining its sphere of influence. China is bolstering its military capabilities and starting to exert its influence over asia. Iran is believed to be developing nuclear weapons and we all know how much they hate the jews. Radical islam is stretching the globe and these is almost no place untouched by terrorism.

We are watching a main fuel supply peak we may have offset the actual peak by throwing ourselves into the current economic crisis but non the less it will happen.

ALmost no one denies global warming wether man made our natural it posses a threat to us. Already climates arounnd the world especially in the northern and southern hemispheres are changing rapidly.


So now I ask you what even got us out of the great depression? That would be WW2. We are seeing powers rise that can rival the United States. We are heading into what looks to be another depression. So what event is gonna be the even that will help us rise again? I hope its not WW3.

We are not repeating history EXACTLY, but there are always some similarities. the main thing is to learn from history...not look for repeats of situations.
If you look at the big picture, there is hardly a country in the world the USA has not been at war with or at odds with at some point in history. Ditto on the economic downturn. There have been many economic downturns in US history. "Panic of 1873", the Andrew Jackson "hard times" of the 1830s, 1929-39 "great depression", 1907 or so there was an economic downturn, etc.

As to "global warming".....there is again, a cycle on earh of warming and cooling. Ever heard of the "ice ages"? there were sevearal ice ages, and inbetween warming periods, and that was prior to any influence of man.
So don't fret over global warming....if it does, it does, on the large picture it is not our fault.

[INAT]

Did you need to ask the question?

Can you look, listen and do some analysis?




I hate this 24/7 fear and gloom talk that is highly emotionally charged and
unsure. No one can see exactly how it will look and speculation is the only thing the repeaters and talking heads can deliver.


Life needs to change.
Get to know people in your neighborhood, say hello build a relationship with them because we will need each other to survive. Unity can help, the elite would prefer to keep America divided in every way.

[Sand Man]

Life needs to change.

"The more things change, the more they stay the same."

I agree with you, though. We're all in this together so might as well unify our efforts.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Alot of people think that recessions come and go and while yes this is true I think alot of people aren't getting the fact that this is the largest financial drop in our history.

It's nowhere close to the largest drop in history. Even a cursory look at conditions extant during the great depression will show how much worse that was.



Iran is believed to be developing nuclear weapons and we all know how much they hate the jews. Radical islam is stretching the globe and these is almost no place untouched by terrorism.

By "place" do you mean like, "continent"? Because you can find hundreds of millions of Americans who've never been touched by terrorism except on TV.



We are watching a main fuel supply peak we may have offset the actual peak by throwing ourselves into the current economic crisis but non the less it will happen.

Yes, and ultimately the Sun with swallow the Earth. The recent spike in fuel prices was due to commodity traders and hoarding and had little to do with supply. It was a manufactured crisis designed to make money, and it worked quite well.



ALmost no one denies global warming wether man made our natural it posses a threat to us. Already climates arounnd the world especially in the northern and southern hemispheres are changing rapidly.

Weather poses a threat to us 24/7, and has since the beginning of life on Earth. And since the beginning, there has been climate change. If the water is rising, smart animals learn to make hip waders.

Man, it just seems like so many people buy into this 24 hour news cycle that sells the crisis du jour. Another crisis designed to make money. Nobody denies we've got some serious problems, but it's not like we're completely helpless.

[tomonator]

Already climates arounnd the world especially in the northern and southern hemispheres are changing rapidly.


Is there another one?

[LongShot]

Is there another one?


East and west?p-)


"History does not repeat itself, historians merely repeat each other."

[vryhpyammoadded]

The top is so cluttered today with fat cats squatting on all there is while fleecing anyone who lives under or more to the point, those almost having the ability to escape their graft machine, are about to get thrown into the conflagration they’ve built killing the cash cow. Some will burn up, others will become stronger, while most will simply loosen their grip or be forced to give up power to their replacements.

Fear and gloom, naaaaw… For those prepared and willing to keep nimble, being aware of what might be coming and not stuck in some sedentary rut, or squashed like a deer by the onrushing truck, there are good times ahead.

No doom or gloom here, great opportunity awaits I say! woot

[Rossdobby]

I dont mean to spread doom and gloom but yah In our current generations history this is the largest financial lose most of us have ever seen.

Global warming maybe natural but it still will effect everyone in different ways for me it means two months of less snowboarding.

I dont mean literally touched by terrorism but for alot of americans and many europeans its a daily issue that haunts them.

[Gat0r]

It's a general fallacy to believe that WWII actually got us out of the depression, sure unemployment decreased because 11 million Americans went into the military. The vast majority of our productive capacity was diverted to creating tanks, guns, bombs, and so on, and a lot of that equipment was then destroyed, how does that benefit the normal person? Price controls were imposed and the populace was forced to ration even basic necessities, so all of this production couldn't be used to raise the standard of living of Americans but for the war effort the true recovery happend after the war when everybody went back to work making stuff for the consumer.

The doom and gloom is very possible because of the intervention the government is taking by preventing the market from making the necessary adjustments, just as Hoover and FDR attempted, its scary when Obama starts mentioning FDR as some sort of savour. This time its much worse for us because a lot of phony wealth has been created from fractional reserves and massive debt, we are no longer the industrial giant of the world so the wealth creation isn't there to back us up. vryhpyammoadded I agree that freedom will once again reign but the ego-centric collectivist of the politcal establishment will have to cause a lot of suffering and destruction before the people wise up.

[ex Strathcona]

if the US can resist the urge to fall back on trade protectionism things will sort them selves out much faster, if they can't and start breaking trade treaties and a trade war results then your really going to see some bad times.

as for global warming, David Suzuki (who looks a lot like a garden gnome in his "draft dodger" commercial when he stands there in that guys living room with a caulking gun) any way he used to to ramble on about an impending Ice Age 25 years ago and I am some what disappointed but not surprised that we didn't get one. imagine how much i believe in global warming now.

[Mu-Meson]

if the US can resist the urge to fall back on trade protectionism things will sort them selves out much faster, if they can't and start breaking trade treaties and a trade war results then your really going to see some bad times.

as for global warming, David Suzuki (who looks a lot like a garden gnome in his "draft dodger" commercial when he stands there in that guys living room with a caulking gun) any way he used to to ramble on about an impending Ice Age 25 years ago and I am some what disappointed but not surprised that we didn't get one. imagine how much i believe in global warming now.

X2. It would be nice if someone were to call him on that. Something along the lines of "Dr Suzuki, you once warned about a man-made climate catastrophe having devastating effects on the globe, and that they only way to save us was give the government more power and money. You said it was urgent, you said the science was settled, and that anyone who disagreed with you was a witless moron/stooge for the oil industry/both. How'd that work out?"

[Rockthekazbah12]

Screw it. Lets just get some beer and enjoy the ride.

[egg taco]

My folks had an 18% mortgage on their first house (2 bed, 1 bath) in the Bay Area of Ca in 75'. My pops started a hydraulic/pneumatic tool business in the garage that he ran for the next 20 yrs. We had 1 car. 1 TV. We were solid middle class.

Buncha' drama queens.

Sound like a bunch of whiny children.

Your daddy would not be proud.

[lag]

...

Oh boy, i knew the most things you wrote there. But they way you told me this facts together scares the **** out of me. :|

Alltough I have to say that this is not even near the greates economy drop in history. And I don't agree that WW II got the US out of this crysis.

We'll see what the future brings ...

[Munkz707]

Everything is cyclical. We all just need to deal with it. Most of it are things we have absolutley no control over anyway.

[el borracho]

Maybe some history/economics experts can answer this, or perhaps some older guys around here that remember "the good ole days?" My question is this: up until the early 70's or so, it seemed that most average, middle class American families had only one employed parent, most likely the father. Back then the wages were ample enough to provide for a typical family (2-4 kids I will say) including all of the necessities of middle class existence (decent house, at least one car, etc.). These days it is pretty standard for both parents to work. The cost of living has appeared to have risen dramatically (not exponentially) just about everywhere, housing is comparatively more expensive, so are cars, even the cost of food, insurance, etc. Has the cost of living risen so outrageously that more than one income is necessary, or have we grown accustomed to modern technology and conveniences, which will always be expensive to acquire and maintain?

Did we used to get by with less (in general, I don't mean item by item), thereby requiring less net income for the family? Along with that, have we spoiled ourselves with modern conveniences that require more money to maintain, almost all of which were unnecessary a generation ago? Or has the cost of living skyrocketed past wages, requiring more net income for a family to live as comfortably as in decades past? Another way to look at it is: are we working harder because we have more, or is it actually harder to maintain a middle-class lifestyle in this day and age?

[valtrex]

History, repeats itself as farce (Karl Marx)

[vryhpyammoadded]

It's a general fallacy to believe that WWII actually got us out of the depression, sure unemployment decreased because 11 million Americans went into the military. The vast majority of our productive capacity was diverted to creating tanks, guns, bombs, and so on, and a lot of that equipment was then destroyed, how does that benefit the normal person? Price controls were imposed and the populace was forced to ration even basic necessities, so all of this production couldn't be used to raise the standard of living of Americans but for the war effort the true recovery happend after the war when everybody went back to work making stuff for the consumer.

The doom and gloom is very possible because of the intervention the government is taking by preventing the market from making the necessary adjustments, just as Hoover and FDR attempted, its scary when Obama starts mentioning FDR as some sort of savour. This time its much worse for us because a lot of phony wealth has been created from fractional reserves and massive debt, we are no longer the industrial giant of the world so the wealth creation isn't there to back us up. vryhpyammoadded I agree that freedom will once again reign but the ego-centric collectivist of the politcal establishment will have to cause a lot of suffering and destruction before the people wise up.

Agreed, it’s a given that freedom will reign again. One could almost apply thermodynamics to this cultural beastie. The more the collective meddles and screws with peoples lives, the more individuals will adapt and the more the collective will meddle. Eventually it comes to a head and the destruction begins between the two forces.

We’ve got some time and might even avert a bigger fuss than this simple economic adjustment, albeit a large one, but I believe the probability of serious conflict in the near future (6 to 8 years) is quite high what with the Zorgs of the world seeing the worlds tension ripe for their chance to break the glass and the collective pushing ever harder not to allow that.

I’m not glum in any way, actually happy really. I’ve prepared, done my part, told people to play nice and mind their business in DC long ago, nobody listened. One might as will get angry at the weather. People need to suck it up and drive on.


Maybe some history/economics experts can answer this, or perhaps some older guys around here that remember "the good ole days?" My question is this: up until the early 70's or so, it seemed that most average, middle class American families had only one employed parent, most likely the father. Back then the wages were ample enough to provide for a typical family (2-4 kids I will say) including all of the necessities of middle class existence (decent house, at least one car, etc.). These days it is pretty standard for both parents to work. The cost of living has appeared to have risen dramatically (not exponentially) just about everywhere, housing is comparatively more expensive, so are cars, even the cost of food, insurance, etc. Has the cost of living risen so outrageously that more than one income is necessary, or have we grown accustomed to modern technology and conveniences, which will always be expensive to acquire and maintain?

Did we used to get by with less (in general, I don't mean item by item), thereby requiring less net income for the family? Along with that, have we spoiled ourselves with modern conveniences that require more money to maintain, almost all of which were unnecessary a generation ago? Or has the cost of living skyrocketed past wages, requiring more net income for a family to live as comfortably as in decades past? Another way to look at it is: are we working harder because we have more, or is it actually harder to maintain a middle-class lifestyle in this day and age?

I’d love to see more studies on the conversion from single income to dual and the effect it had on the American economy. There’s plenty of statistics out there showing a lot of related trends following the rise of the working mom but I have yet to see anything solid done to prove or disprove the dual income family engaging common demand/supply, price increase’s but I guarantee the gold rush effect occurred.

As for all the junk we have today eating up larger portions of our income, I agree it’s been on the rise. More and more people today just have to have their frivolities but what gets me, is just why so many lose their damn minds, living beyond their means just to have the latest toys.
I suspect that there is a hint to this issue in the dramatic rise of American psychosis over the past forty years that closely follows the rise of the dual income family and the divorce rate.

I’m beginning to see it all as part of what I call the maturity cycle of American culture which is, when times are good the US becomes more and more decadent eventually reaching a point that the mature can no longer support the economic inefficiencies of the childish resulting in a crash that forces more people to become mature resulting in an economic boom resulting in more decadence and so on.

The big problem is that the utopians of the managerial elite believe they can manage this cycle clipping the busts effects or by changing the frequency but actually their meddling only increases the amplitude leading to even larger booms and, therefore, busts requiring even more clipping. Eventually nobody is going to stop the fall. Well, at least we are blessed with mortality and every 35 years or so these crooks in office die off causing a bit of distortion as the new crooks wrangle with the societal conundrum herding the cats.

[Shuimo]

Your complaint is groundless and merely cold war mentality!

[tbk107]

I dont mean to spread doom and gloom but yah In our current generations history this is the largest financial lose most of us have ever seen.





If you grew up under the boot of a commie government it might be the worst you've seen in your brief stint with a free market. Seeing as you are in Canada it comes no where close to being the largest financial lose; unless you're under 20.

'74 and '82 were the most similar with today but were much worse in other ways.

The '74 recession had unemployment peaking at roughly 9% with a 50% drop in financial markets.

The '82 recession had unemployment peaking at 10.8%.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2ce51fb.gif

Both of those recession had something in common with each other that the present downturn doesn't; massive inflation. During the '74 recession inflation was running at over 10% per year. During a 4 year period starting in '79 total inflation was 47%. The effects of this inflation were devastating.

The depression of the 1930's saw deflation with goods falling in price by 30%

How does the present decline in GDP measure up.
1929. 45.6%
1973. 3.1%
1981. 2.6%
2007. 1.3% so far
1990. 1.3%
2001. .4%

January saw numerous leading indicators start to tick upwards.

It would seem that the part of history that is being repeated is the growth in the number of chicken littles that show up when times turn for the worse.

[wildcat]

depression mean mass people so poor they stand in line for soup, I don't think we are even that close.

[el borracho]

I’d love to see more studies on the conversion from single income to dual and the effect it had on the American economy. There’s plenty of statistics out there showing a lot of related trends following the rise of the working mom but I have yet to see anything solid done to prove or disprove the dual income family engaging common demand/supply, price increase’s but I guarantee the gold rush effect occurred.

That's similar to another theory that I've had, but it's more "tin-foil hat" than grounded fact. That when women chose to go to work the market and economy had to raise the cost of living accordingly so that all the families with a new found dual income weren't bumped up from middle class. The start of the dramatic increase in cost of living seems to come just after the women's lib movement.

[Gat0r]

If you grew up under the boot of a commie government it might be the worst you've seen in your brief stint with a free market. Seeing as you are in Canada it comes no where close to being the largest financial lose; unless you're under 20.

'74 and '82 were the most similar with today but were much worse in other ways.

The '74 recession had unemployment peaking at roughly 9% with a 50% drop in financial markets.

The '82 recession had unemployment peaking at 10.8%.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2ce51fb.gif

Both of those recession had something in common with each other that the present downturn doesn't; massive inflation. During the '74 recession inflation was running at over 10% per year. During a 4 year period starting in '79 total inflation was 47%. The effects of this inflation were devastating.

The depression of the 1930's saw deflation with goods falling in price by 30%

How does the present decline in GDP measure up.
1929. 45.6%
1973. 3.1%
1981. 2.6%
2007. 1.3% so far
1990. 1.3%
2001. .4%

January saw numerous leading indicators start to tick upwards.

It would seem that the part of history that is being repeated is the growth in the number of chicken littles that show up when times turn for the worse.


GDP is full of fluff a large part is spending considering we don't produce much anymore. I hardly consider it accurrate. Your idea of inflation is wrong, the Federal Reserve has already implemented the massive inflation which is the expansion of the money supply, price increases are a consequence of inflation, we should be happy that the banks aren't lending all of those reserves the Fed injected into them, but soon enough we are going to see the effects of inflation.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

My folks had an 18% mortgage on their first house (2 bed, 1 bath) in the Bay Area of Ca in 75'. My pops started a hydraulic/pneumatic tool business in the garage that he ran for the next 20 yrs. We had 1 car. 1 TV. We were solid middle class.

Buncha' drama queens.

Sound like a bunch of whiny children.

Your daddy would not be proud.

Heh heh well said. I totally agree. My folks bought their house in '79 and I think their mortgage rate was over 20%. I never had a new bike as a kid, they came from the dump and I repainted them. We never went more than 300 miles in any direction for a vacation. We had one TV, one phone, one car, and I think I can remember nearly every occasion when we ate at a restaurant. We have so far to yet fall before we even return to what I think of as "normal" that it's almost funny. There are times when I honestly think the economic crisis was caused by a mass realization that we all already had all the useless junk that we had room for.

[tbk107]

GDP is full of fluff a large part is spending considering we don't produce much anymore. I hardly consider it accurrate. Your idea of inflation is wrong, the Federal Reserve has already implemented the massive inflation which is the expansion of the money supply, price increases are a consequence of inflation, we should be happy that the banks aren't lending all of those reserves the Fed injected into them, but soon enough we are going to see the effects of inflation.

During the present downturn, prices haven't been shooting through the roof as they did during the previous recessions I mentioned. The massive inflation of prices during those recession made them even worse. Well the expansion of the monetary supply will lead to a growth in the rate of inflation in the future; the effects will hardly be as bad as if the inflation had taken place during the contraction that is presently taking place in the economy.

[Gat0r]

I see what you're getting at, Stagflation. I disagree about the inflation heading our way in the near future, all of this so called stimulus is an attept to increase spending and prop up prices. Paul Krugman says it isnt a large enough spending spree the guy is nuts. Bernanke who is a so called scholar of the Great Depression believes that the Fed failed to pump the system full of credit to alleviate the contraction, he vowed to not let that happen again and he stood by his word, scroll down the the adjusted monetary base.

http://www.mises.org/markets.asp

That should concern anybody who doesn't like inflation, we have more unemployment to go and the government is pushing banks to increase lending but they've correctly maintained their reserves, what if it comes to the point where government forces them to lend? That seems very possible. Their Keynesian economic logic seems to be that if the last spending stimulus didn't work then it wasn't enough.

[Gat0r]

Maybe some history/economics experts can answer this, or perhaps some older guys around here that remember "the good ole days?" My question is this: up until the early 70's or so, it seemed that most average, middle class American families had only one employed parent, most likely the father. Back then the wages were ample enough to provide for a typical family (2-4 kids I will say) including all of the necessities of middle class existence (decent house, at least one car, etc.). These days it is pretty standard for both parents to work. The cost of living has appeared to have risen dramatically (not exponentially) just about everywhere, housing is comparatively more expensive, so are cars, even the cost of food, insurance, etc. Has the cost of living risen so outrageously that more than one income is necessary, or have we grown accustomed to modern technology and conveniences, which will always be expensive to acquire and maintain?

Did we used to get by with less (in general, I don't mean item by item), thereby requiring less net income for the family? Along with that, have we spoiled ourselves with modern conveniences that require more money to maintain, almost all of which were unnecessary a generation ago? Or has the cost of living skyrocketed past wages, requiring more net income for a family to live as comfortably as in decades past? Another way to look at it is: are we working harder because we have more, or is it actually harder to maintain a middle-class lifestyle in this day and age?

In the "good ole days" our currency was linked to gold 1815-1914 we had the classical gold standard, but after that it wouldn't return. From then on we went to some half hearted gold systems such as the gold exchange and Bretton Woods, both destroyed by paper currency inflation. If you look at the producer price index chart on this page http://www.mises.org/markets.asp take note of the time around 1970 when Nixon severed the last tie the dollar had with gold when Bretton Woods collapsed. Inflation has reigned king ever since because gold was the inflation restriction imposed on central banks, now they have no limits.

Technology when new is expensive but when companies productivity for that technology improves it becomes more affordable look at dvd players or computers, extremely expensive at first but over time practically anybody could afford one. Increased productivity means lower prices and an increase in the standard of living of society. Before I started studying economics I figured well things get more expensive as time marches forward, like there was some mystical force at work, but when you look into the facts this particular institution called the Federal Reserve is the culprit.

[Walter Sobchak]

I hate this 24/7 fear and gloom talk that is highly emotionally charged and unsure. No one can see exactly how it will look and speculation is the only thing the repeaters and talking heads can deliver.

Right you are!

The Democrats love to invoke FDR, but they forget that he never talked-down the economy. On the contrary, he told his advisers to put a positive spin where possible or just shut up. When things were so gloomy and dark, he went on the radio (not the TV like Biden claims) and talked to people about common sense and hope in what were called the "fireside chats". Not this phony hope rhetoric, but FDR talked about real hope and faith over the long haul. He told us, "We have nothing to fear, but fear itself!" Think about what that really means!

Maybe Obama and his people need to try that for a while and stop telling us how bad it is. Words do mean something, especially coming from the President of the United States.

Don't be a poser, lead by example!

[Walter Sobchak]

My folks had an 18% mortgage on their first house (2 bed, 1 bath) in the Bay Area of Ca in 75'. My pops started a hydraulic/pneumatic tool business in the garage that he ran for the next 20 yrs. We had 1 car. 1 TV. We were solid middle class..

I'm quite a bit older, but my father was also an entrepreneur. We lived austerely at times, and everyone in the family worked to make the business go. Now, these are the people who "don't pay their fair share". Go figure, huh?

Our economy used to based on "making things", just as your dad and my dad did. Things were built here and made to last. In 1950, a TV set cost over two-weeks wages. A dishwasher cost almost the same. Relatively, things were more expensive, but they lasted. We had two pairs of shoes: dress and sneakers (Chucks or Keds). People didn't live for stuff.

Now, our economy is based on the consumer consuming, and nothing is made here. When we stop buying stuff, the economy falters. Throw the artificially-expanding housing bubble on top of that, and it gets real nasty when things slow down. Do you realize that a huge part of this recent prosperity was based on people buying houses who didn't have the means to do so? Some little ripple (oil? interest rates?) started the whole mess falling in on us.

Even "Buy American" is double-edged. If we quit buying hammers and flashlights and floor tiles and teddy bears from China, who will buy our worthless Government Debt?

[Nano]

History is continuing not repeating.

[commanding]

Everything is cyclical. We all just need to deal with it. Most of it are things we have absolutley no control over anyway.

this fellow is 100% correct. everything goes in cycles, econmics, climate, etc. just get on with it.

[Gat0r]

this fellow is 100% correct. everything goes in cycles, econmics, climate, etc. just get on with it.

Yeah lets just bury our heads in the sand and not ask questions, its just the way the market works, oh come on thats assinine, maybe people should start looking into how our monetary system works and central banking and how it creates credit out of thin air which causes inflation and huge asset bubbles, it seems every 8-10 years we have a crises like this which they then try to paper over, we are seeing a severely manipulated market not one that operates freely.