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J-10
06-22-2004, 09:18 PM
Tuesday, June 22, 2004

WASHINGTON — President Bush claimed the right to waive anti-torture laws and treaties covering prisoners of war after the invasion of Afghanistan (search), and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld (search) authorized guards to strip detainees and threaten them with dogs, according to documents released Tuesday.

The documents were handed out at the White House in an effort to blunt allegations that the administration had authorized torture against Al Qaeda (search) prisoners from Afghanistan and Iraq.

"I have never ordered torture," Bush said. "I will never order torture. The values of this country are such that torture is not a part of our soul and our being."

The memos were meant to deal with an election-year headache that followed revelations about abuses at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, but the documents also brought to light some practices that the administration decided had gone too far. Amnesty International revived its call for the appointment of a special counsel to investigate any torture and ill-treatment of prisoners in U.S. custody.

The Justice Department disavowed a memo written in 2002 that appeared to justify the use of torture in the war on terror. The memo also argued that the president's wartime powers superseded anti-torture laws and treaties.

That 50-page document, dated Aug. 1, 2002, will be replaced, Justice Department officials said. White House counsel Alberto Gonzales said that some legal memos contained "unnecessary and overbroad discussions" that could be "subject to misinterpretation." But he added, "The analysis underpinning the president's decisions stand and are not being reviewed."

A new memo will instead narrowly address the question of proper interrogation techniques for Al Qaeda and Taliban detainees, the Justice Department said.

Bush had outlined his own views in a Feb. 7. 2002, document regarding treatment of Al Qaeda detainees from Afghanistan. He said the war against terrorism had ushered in a "new paradigm" and that terrorist attacks required "new thinking in the law of war." Still, he said prisoners must be treated humanely and in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.

"I accept the legal conclusion of the attorney general and the Department of Justice that I have the authority under the Constitution to suspend Geneva as between the United States and Afghanistan, but I decline to exercise that authority at this time," the president said in the memo, entitled "Humane Treatment of Al Qaeda and Taliban Detainees."

Explaining Bush's memo, Gonzales said the United States "is fighting "an enemy that does not fight, attack or plan according to accepted laws of war — in particular the Geneva Conventions."

In a separate Pentagon memo, dated Nov. 27, 2002, the Defense Department's chief lawyer, William J. Haynes II, recommended that Defense Secretary Rumsfeld approve the use of 14 interrogation techniques on detainees at Guantanamo Bay, such as yelling at a prisoner during questioning and using "stress positions," like standing, for up to four hours.

Haynes also recommended approval of one technique among harsher methods requested by U.S. military authorities at Guantanamo: use of "mild, non-injurious physical contact such as grabbing, poking in the chest with the finger and light pushing."

Among the techniques that Rumsfeld approved on Dec. 2, 2002, in addition to the grabbing, the yelling and the stress positions:

— Use of 20-hour interrogations.

— Removal of all comfort items, including religious items.

— Removal of clothing.

— Using detainees' "individual phobias such as fear of dogs to induce stress."

Rumsfeld scribbled a note on Haynes' memo that said, "However, I stand for 8-10 hours a day. Why is standing limited to 4 hours."

In a Jan. 15, 2003, note, Rumsfeld rescinded his approval of Haynes' recommendations and said a review would be conducted to consider legal, policy and operational issues relating to interrogations of detainees held by the U.S. military in the war on terrorism.

Rumsfeld's decision was prompted at least in part by objections raised by some military lawyers who felt that the techniques might go too far, officials said earlier this year.

The review was completed in April 2003, and on that basis Rumsfeld reissued his guidance on April 16, 2003. He approved 24 interrogation techniques, to be used in a manner consistent with the Geneva Conventions, but said that any use of four of those methods would have to be approved by him in advance: the use of rewards or removal of privileges; attacking or insulting the ego of a detainee; alternating the use of friendly and harsh interrogators, and isolation.

The April 2003 review said that removing a detainees' clothing would raise legal issues because it could be construed as degrading, which is against the international convention on torture. The removal of clothing, approved by Rumsfeld for use at Guantanamo Bay in late 2002, was not among the authorized techniques in his revised guidelines issued in April 2003.

At the Justice Department, senior officials said that the 50-page memo issued to the White House on Aug. 1, 2002, would be repudiated and replaced.

The memo, signed by former Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee, included lengthy sections that appeared to justify use of torture in the war on terrorism and it contended that U.S. personnel could be immune from prosecution for torture. The memo also argued that the president's powers as commander in chief allow him to override U.S. laws and international treaties banning torture.

Critics on Capitol Hill and elsewhere have said that memo provided the legal underpinnings for subsequent abuses of prisoners in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Reacting to the White House release, Vermont Sen. Patrick Leahy, the senior Democrat on the Judiciary Committee, accused the administration of continuing to withhold information.

"Though this is a self-serving selection, at least it is a beginning," Leahy said. "But for the Judiciary Committee and the Senate to find the whole truth, we will need much more cooperation and extensive hearings."
From (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,123419,00.html)

seruriermarshal
06-22-2004, 09:28 PM
But has not agree let the dog attack prisoners , only in the psychological one kind of threat.

MEGR
06-22-2004, 09:39 PM
LOL.. Oh no,dogs.. rofl..

American Patriot
06-22-2004, 09:41 PM
Do these dogs have bees in their mouthes and when they bark they shoot bees at you?

Vance
06-22-2004, 09:46 PM
Do these dogs have bees in their mouthes and when they bark they shoot bees at you?
rofl

SeanAshi
06-22-2004, 10:11 PM
They should have used fat tom cats.

MEGR
06-22-2004, 10:21 PM
http://www.ewe-topia.com/gallery/5bc%20puppies.jpg

Who can be scared of these?

usa320
06-22-2004, 10:32 PM
Do these dogs have bees in their mouthes and when they bark they shoot bees at you?

damn beat me to it.

rofl


The Dogs, and the bees, and the dogs with the bees in their mouth so when they bark the bees shoot out at you...

-H. Simpson

SOG
06-22-2004, 11:16 PM
ive seen a 18lb calico go bitch cakes by my leg. suffice to say i made sure i wasnt in the same room with that crazy cat after that. that thing was unreal fast....... it swipes at anything that isnt the owner.

RavenW
06-23-2004, 12:56 AM
Who let the dogs out?

:lol:

Kilgor
06-23-2004, 12:58 AM
they should used mutant swines

zenmaster
06-23-2004, 03:13 AM
Who cares? Hasn't anybody ever heard the term 'no blood, no foul?' I don't understand the big deal with psychological interrogation; obviously the guards in question stepped over the line, but how is the official policy all that wrong? Is a prison full of insurgents who want to kill americans supposed to be Club Med? If the dog chews somebody's face off, its clear that that is not okay, but is a little fear and maybe some pants-****ting too high a price to pay to save lives?

fdt
06-23-2004, 07:12 AM
Very funny... :cantbeli:
Dog is just a tool in a man's hand... It's not about the animal... it's about people...

OB Kenobi
06-23-2004, 07:36 AM
But has not agree let the dog attack prisoners , only in the psychological one kind of threat.

Maybe, maybe not. Look at the Abu Ghraib photos on this page:

http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

They show the incident where one naked Iraqi taunted by a dog later has to have his leg stitched up from something that "may" be a dog bite.

Freibier
06-23-2004, 07:49 AM
Rumy should resign,
and you guys trying to downplay the Abu Ghraib mess should grow up a little. It's a damn shame what happend there and the guys in charge should take responsibility and resign so that those events don't stick on the US forever.
my 2 eurocent ..

n4292936
06-23-2004, 07:59 AM
Do these dogs have bees in their mouthes and when they bark they shoot bees at you?
good call patriot

Devgru, you want to see the picture of a dog you should fear!!??

Meat the spawn of satan's dog itself. This vicious little beasthound spawns wings and sports raptor-like claws with which it crushes terrorist ********s.
its my baby woot :D

http://ausspecialforces.com/devilPug.jpg

easyand
06-23-2004, 08:07 AM
where have you found an animal like this!!?

Black Dots
06-23-2004, 12:42 PM
From a practical standpoint, which I haven't heard discussed in the media or elsewhere, shouldn't we be concerned about the reliability of any information extracted from forced confessions? Think about it, if you were sitting naked in a jail with a bunch of angry foreign soldiers yelling at you in a language you don’t understand and a few pissed-off German Shepherds in your face, wouldn’t you be inclined to say anything just to get them to stop, even if it wasn’t true, but you knew it was what the interrogators wanted to hear?

I think that’s a factor that has to be considered, whether its someone sitting in an Iraqi prison who wants that dog to stop barking at him or an Iraqi scientist, looking to defect, who swears up an down that Saddam had a nuke program, which he’d be happy to tell you about as soon as you give him asylum.

usa320
06-23-2004, 12:51 PM
Who cares? Hasn't anybody ever heard the term 'no blood, no foul?' I don't understand the big deal with psychological interrogation; obviously the guards in question stepped over the line, but how is the official policy all that wrong? Is a prison full of insurgents who want to kill americans supposed to be Club Med? If the dog chews somebody's face off, its clear that that is not okay, but is a little fear and maybe some pants-****ting too high a price to pay to save lives?

my thoughts exactly. Dogs are used to threaten criminals all the time in the united states, why would MP's use different procedures for Iraqis...

Black Dots
06-23-2004, 01:28 PM
Dogs are used to threaten criminals all the time in the united states, why would MP's use different procedures for Iraqis...

If by "threaten criminals" you mean cops threaten to send in a dog if a suspect refuses to offer himself up for arrest, then you are correct. However, if any kind of coercion, especially using a pissed off dog, is used to extract a confession, it would most likely be tossed out of court, and rightly so.

Deuterium
06-23-2004, 02:30 PM
Dogs are used to threaten criminals all the time in the united states, why would MP's use different procedures for Iraqis...

If by "threaten criminals" you mean cops threaten to send in a dog if a suspect refuses to offer himself up for arrest, then you are correct. However, if any kind of coercion, especially using a pissed off dog, is used to extract a confession, it would most likely be tossed out of court, and rightly so.

Yes but the difference, theoretically, is that "threaten" is backed up by a willingness to actually USE the dog to dismember/maim/kill/pacify/subdue the criminal when non-compliance is encountered. In the military case, well at least what the intent was for only the threaten part to be utilized by the MPs, not the dismember/maim/kill/subdue portion. Not too small of a distinction in my book. I do support the use of both cases.

Black Dots
06-23-2004, 05:54 PM
In the military case, well at least what the intent was for only the threaten part to be utilized by the MPs, not the dismember/maim/kill/subdue portion.

Yeah, but what difference does it make to the prisoner if the MP really doesn't mean to harm the prisoner, even though everything the MP may be saying or doing would indicate otherwise? For all the prisoner may know, he might let the dog loose.

Deuterium
06-23-2004, 06:22 PM
In the military case, well at least what the intent was for only the threaten part to be utilized by the MPs, not the dismember/maim/kill/subdue portion.

Yeah, but what difference does it make to the prisoner if the MP really doesn't mean to harm the prisoner, even though everything the MP may be saying or doing would indicate otherwise? For all the prisoner may know, he might let the dog loose.

Oh I agree I won't argue that point.