USA....taxes

[commanding]

Here is an idea I will toss out and let you think about it. Since the fed govt seems unwilling to reign in spending, until we can get some folks with a pair in office that will reign in spending (Bush didn't and I voted for him, and Obama is sure not going to)...why don't we start taxing churches, income and property taxes on church and every other type of tax. If the feds are going to levy taxes on everything else from ammo to baby formula, why not church?

I know it would take guts...but why should they get a free ride?

[LongShot]

You have my support.

[PALADIN]

It sounds like a good idea to me. But with our country being one steeped in religion I don't really see this possibly being considered, though I could be wrong.

[INAT]

Tax them and tax them good.They are just another business and in these times everyone needs to sacrifice and pitch in.

[AroundTheCorner]

you have full support

[ZeroZen]

How about lets do another Boston Tea Party

[INAT]

How about lets do another Boston Tea Party


Sounds good but this time people can dump Starbucks
instead of tea.I mean eco-terror is eco-terror.


I wonder what would happen if everyones stopped paying their income taxes all at once?

[vryhpyammoadded]

I wonder what would happen if everyones stopped paying their income taxes all at once? They'll just print more dollars and get you with inflation then put a gun to thier own heads and play the Clevon Little, blazing saddles trick on everyone.

[LongShot]

Sounds good but this time people can dump Starbucks
instead of tea.I mean eco-terror is eco-terror.


I wonder what would happen if everyones stopped paying their income taxes all at once?


Bill Benson has been making a strong case against income taxes for years, with plenty of evidence that the 16th Amedment was never properly ratified...decide for yourself (http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com/new/home.asp)....

[commanding]

Check this out...the Kenneth Copeland Ministries....this article :

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3850403&page=1

says people are donating to these churches a LOT of money 100 billion each year. $23,000 marble toilets, etc.

I think these guys can pay taxes, if the guys working at McDonalds can.

[Thumpsquid]

Something I've always wondered about the tax system in the US, and now seems as good a time as any to ask: How much paperwork do you have to fill out every year for the IRS and state taxation bodies, on average ?

[INAT]

This printing money is out of control.Is America headed for a Weimar Republic type situation where our money is soon worthless?

What are the countries that America has borrowed from going to
do when the check bounces?

[Abolith]

Something I've always wondered about the tax system in the US, and now seems as good a time as any to ask: How much paperwork do you have to fill out every year for the IRS and state taxation bodies, on average ?



for people who don't have much in terms of investments just a few pages. I had a business and investments which caused me to send in 23 pages for the feds and 19 for the State.

[Thumpsquid]

ouch! 0123456789

[Jobu]

Call me a crazy constitutionalist but I very much doubt you could levy taxes on churches without trampling on the 1st Amendment.

You know that whole free exercise bit? Yea, it's easy to overlook.

[c62]

Here is an idea I will toss out and let you think about it. Since the fed govt seems unwilling to reign in spending, until we can get some folks with a pair in office that will reign in spending (Bush didn't and I voted for him, and Obama is sure not going to)...why don't we start taxing churches, income and property taxes on church and every other type of tax. If the feds are going to levy taxes on everything else from ammo to baby formula, why not church?

I know it would take guts...but why should they get a free ride?Besides churches are you also going to include other non-profit entities as well? If you're going to yank one set of tax-exemptions(religious) then you should yank others(non-religious).

[AlfredoTP]

Besides churches are you also going to include other non-profit entities as well? If you're going to yank one set of tax-exemptions(religious) then you should yank others(non-religious).

x2 I agree!
And more: let's tax every single politico that is not doing his job. They are supposed to solve 'problems', but they spent lots of time pointing fingers to each other:-*$

[commanding]

Call me a crazy constitutionalist but I very much doubt you could levy taxes on churches without trampling on the 1st Amendment.

You know that whole free exercise bit? Yea, it's easy to overlook.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

I don't see anything in there about not imposing taxes on the money that churches take in. You are still free to choose your religion, free to go to the church of your choice and free to give as much dough to the church of your choice. And I have no problem taxing the charities too, any entity that takes in money in any form, cash or donations of goods.
It certainly does not prohibit your free exercise of religion. It would only tap into the billions of dollars these churches get every year that go for private jets, million dollar homes for the preachers, and the thousand dollar suits the guys wear. As (Lenny Bruce?) said, any preacher that has more than two suits is a hypocrite.

[LongShot]

Three words:

Pastor Creflo Dollar

[Cornerstone]

Let's just keep the tax exemptions and promote atheism discretely.... it's less controversial as it spreads the controversy over a longer period of time... that will work better than to kill the exemption all together

[commanding]

Let's just keep the tax exemptions and promote atheism discretely.... it's less controversial as it spreads the controversy over a longer period of time... that will work better than to kill the exemption all together

Why don't you go ahead and call me a nazi? Labeling others as atheists, hasn't a thing to do with taxes. It is just requiring churches to pull their load, like everyone else. And i include charities in that group that should be taxed, and anyone else i can think of that isn't taxed that has large income in the millions and billions of dollars.

[Macs.]

...also it makes dubios sects make alot of money.

Look at Scientology, and how much money they get around the US tax system that way.

[commanding]

I am not saying this is "the" answer, taxing churches and big charities, etc. I had much rather the feds reign in the spending. The congress and President, spend more money than they have to spend. It is ridiculous, but they can't seem to stop.
These guys in congress are writing laws to spend money that not only we can't pay for, but our children can't pay for.

I sure could not run my household like they run this country.

[Yeti2424]

The problem with taxing a non-pofit organization is that they are not making a profit. What are you going to tax besides property?

[vryhpyammoadded]

I personally believe in a system where the states determine their own sales tax system with the Fed getting some “flat” (i.e. same rate for all) percentage of the various states GDP’s (as dictated by the states and begged for by the Fed by some mechanism before the new Fed budget cycle). Along with this system, it would also be illegal for the direct taxation of any kind, be it income, property, etc… be levied on the individual or business.

I’d like nothing more than to eradicate the IRS and burn all copies of those onerous big, grey, byzantine accounting books they inflict upon all us businessmen. Do this and I’m sure the economy would blaze white hot with the wide open opportunities as most corporations on earth would pursue a headquarters here.

[LongShot]

The problem with taxing a non-pofit organization is that they are not making a profit. What are you going to tax besides property?


Non profit is actually "not for profit" meaning that they do not exist to make money as their primary goal.....oh, but they make plenty of money...otherwise how could they afford to pay staff, the electric bill, build parking decks for their buildings, charter private jets, buy Rolls-Royce's, etc....

[usmcprincipal]

Complaining about federal spending is legitimate, but increasing the tax base will not quell the government's insatiable appetite for spending tax dollars.

I would have three questions. One was asked by a previous poster. Should only religious groups be taxed or should it be expanded and all non-profits made taxable entities?

Second, most religious organizations operate off donations or tithing. Will taxation negatively impact donations?

Third, most religious organizations are involved in grassroots civic actions. How will their loss of income effect the working poor, poor, and homeless, who are the recipients of their goodwill?

It's really an interesting subject. I suspect religious organizataions spend hundred of millions, if not billions of dollars in addressing social problems in America. I believe a great deal of research would need to be done in order to determine, if taxation would be a substantive gain.

[wildcat]

Taxes church is a bad idea, for 2 reasons

1) 1st Amendment
2) A lot of churches do so much for the local community, not all churches are these big TV soap types. A lot of drug rehab, looking after the poor, terminally sick are done by churches, including help for disabled vets and there family, Taxing these churches only tax away from the people they help, like all charities. a lot of people do not realize how much of the community help comes from donations to this churches.

The Mormon Church for example is the 2nd largest land owner in the USA, and 3rd in the UK, they own lots of farms, they produce vast amount of food that is then sent to the worlds starving, as well as to locals. They also help out with major disaster around the world, they are not the only church.

7th day Adventist own doctors practices and hospital, we use them, being a vet on government paid health insurance like tricare (CHAMPUS) and champva, there are not many organization that will accept and support the troops and vets in the medical field.

So taxing churches will load even more onto the government, and more and more the USA will need to be socialist, to support what can be done in the communities. Bushes support of faith based orgainisation meet with a lot of resistance from the libreal back in the early days of his 1st term, as he gave them a lot of access to federal money to help with programs, no 7 years have past we can see that this has help, and removing this will take that help away from those that really need it.

Leave the people that do good the Fvck alone.

[commanding]

Non profit is actually "not for profit" meaning that they do not exist to make money as their primary goal.....oh, but they make plenty of money...otherwise how could they afford to pay staff, the electric bill, build parking decks for their buildings, charter private jets, buy Rolls-Royce's, etc....

yes you hit that nail on the head. Most of these big hospitals, are not for profit....the doctors own percentages of the hospitals and clinics, so when you go in the doctors office and get a shot, you get a bill from the not for profit hospital across the street that has some private contract with said doctor for a thousand bucks...even though you never set foot in their fricking hospital. Happened to me 2 years ago.

[commanding]

Taxes church is a bad idea, for 2 reasons

1) 1st Amendment
2) A lot of churches do so much for the local community, not all churches are these big TV soap types. A lot of drug rehab, looking after the poor, terminally sick are done by churches, including help for disabled vets and there family, Taxing these churches only tax away from the people they help, like all charities. a lot of people do not realize how much of the community help comes from donations to this churches.

The Mormon Church for example is the 2nd largest land owner in the USA, and 3rd in the UK, they own lots of farms, they produce vast amount of food that is then sent to the worlds starving, as well as to locals. They also help out with major disaster around the world, they are not the only church.

7th day Adventist own doctors practices and hospital, we use them, being a vet on government paid health insurance like tricare (CHAMPUS) and champva, there are not many organization that will accept and support the troops and vets in the medical field.

So taxing churches will load even more onto the government, and more and more the USA will need to be socialist, to support what can be done in the communities. Bushes support of faith based orgainisation meet with a lot of resistance from the libreal back in the early days of his 1st term, as he gave them a lot of access to federal money to help with programs, no 7 years have past we can see that this has help, and removing this will take that help away from those that really need it.

Leave the people that do good the Fvck alone.

Great, then get the congress to stop spending money we don't have.

[wildcat]

yes you hit that nail on the head. Most of these big hospitals, are not for profit....the doctors own percentages of the hospitals and clinics, so when you go in the doctors office and get a shot, you get a bill from the not for profit hospital across the street that has some private contract with said doctor for a thousand bucks...even though you never set foot in their fricking hospital. Happened to me 2 years ago.
the doctor bill is that way, the hospital part is separate, most hospital in the US, do not employ doctors, and so the doctors that work there bill desperately. I hate it, but it the same in most hospitals.

[commanding]

Taxes church is a bad idea, for 2 reasons

1) 1st Amendment
2) A lot of churches do so much for the local community, not all churches are these big TV soap types. A lot of drug rehab, looking after the poor, terminally sick are done by churches, including help for disabled vets and there family, Taxing these churches only tax away from the people they help, like all charities. a lot of people do not realize how much of the community help comes from donations to this churches.

The Mormon Church for example is the 2nd largest land owner in the USA, and 3rd in the UK, they own lots of farms, they produce vast amount of food that is then sent to the worlds starving, as well as to locals. They also help out with major disaster around the world, they are not the only church.

Leave the people that do good the Fvck alone.

So the 2nd largest land owner in the USA...should not pay taxes?
Here is a photo of the Mormon Tab. in SLC and the area around it..you think they MIGHT have a TON of money??? And it shouldn't be taxed because it is all going to the underpriviledged? Looks like they spend a few million every year keeping the area looking like Eden to me.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h8/clovisfirst/military6/DSCF2904.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h8/clovisfirst/military6/DSCF2895.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h8/clovisfirst/military6/DSCF2908.jpg

[commanding]

the doctor bill is that way, the hospital part is separate, most hospital in the US, do not employ doctors, and so the doctors that work there bill desperately. I hate it, but it the same in most hospitals.


Sir, I have two family members that work for LARGE hospitals in very high places, and I know perfectly well how hospitals operate and the kind of money they make. They routinely give away 20 thousand dollar gifts to people who are not poor or on welfare, and I know perfectly well how the hospital-doc thing works. So not for profit hospitals have plenty of money to pay taxes, believe me.

[deagle]

G-D doesn't like to be taxed

even though the Dems are spending more, they hope to get more return for their investment. the repubs on the other hand spent money with no hope for a return on their spending it seems..

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Here is an idea I will toss out and let you think about it. Since the fed govt seems unwilling to reign in spending, until we can get some folks with a pair in office that will reign in spending (Bush didn't and I voted for him, and Obama is sure not going to)...why don't we start taxing churches, income and property taxes on church and every other type of tax. If the feds are going to levy taxes on everything else from ammo to baby formula, why not church?

I know it would take guts...but why should they get a free ride?

Whilst I am no fan of organised religion. Some churches and religions do deserve their tax free status. Catholic, Anglican Commune, Eastern/Greek Orthodox and Lutheranism (sp) The amount of charity these religions provide, education, homeless shelters, soup kitchens. More then makes up for any lack of taxes they provide. It is safe to assume these religions and organisations like the Red Cross, Salvation Army ect would have to severely be curtailed or removed entirely.

Remember these groups by and large rely on the charity of the people to provide the services they do.

Evangleist churches on the other hand. Tax em hard and tax em good. They are nothing more then money making excercises

[commanding]

Whilst I am no fan of organised religion. Some churches and religions do deserve their tax free status. Catholic, Anglican Commune, Eastern/Greek Orthodox and Lutheranism (sp) The amount of charity these religions provide, education, homeless shelters, soup kitchens. More then makes up for any lack of taxes they provide. It is safe to assume these religions and organisations like the Red Cross, Salvation Army ect would have to severely be curtailed or removed entirely.

Remember these groups by and large rely on the charity of the people to provide the services they do.

Evangleist churches on the other hand. Tax em hard and tax em good. They are nothing more then money making excercises

I would agree but (you knew there would be a but didn't you?), then you get into the biz of deciding who is REALLY a charitable church and who isn't, etc. I say "Flat tax" all income on everyone, business, church, individuals, charities, the whole smear.
I completely understand that a lot of churches do good charity work, and there is no reason they can not do that and pay tax too. One thing that would help churchs to more charity is to relax the ridiculous local codes and crap that hinder them from doing charity work easily. For instance here the local codes prohibit any church or charity from handing out free sandwiches etc to homeless, if they were not prepared in a licensed kitchen...i.e. home made sandwiches can't be used, etc. Just using that as an example. I have just had it with these churches whose pastors drive big expensive cars, have more techno toys than your average doctor and the televangelists have their own Learjets. They build monuments to themselves that they call churchs, that are more expensive per square foot than your average school, and they sit empty 6 days a week.
Cut spending, or tax the non taxed. That is the option the way I see it. You reach a point where middle america can't be taxed anymore.

[wildcat]

So the 2nd largest land owner in the USA...should not pay taxes?
Here is a photo of the Mormon Tab. in SLC and the area around it..you think they MIGHT have a TON of money??? And it shouldn't be taxed because it is all going to the underpriviledged? Looks like they spend a few million every year keeping the area looking like Eden to me.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h8/clovisfirst/military6/DSCF2904.jpg




did you know that temple was built with zero money? yes zero money, Members did it for free, cut the stone hauled it there and built it. So maybe we should tax people that donate time and help others too. The only people that are paid in the are the administrators, non of the clergy receive any kind of pay, their missionary's pay there own way in their missions.

See taxing people beliefs is just wrong, and it would be a violation of their first amendment rights.

I know a lot of Mormon and have many Mormon friends.

Remember these churches and Non profits don't make money, they rely on people to donate money they have earned to do good.

If your views are to tax non profits, then maybe we should they should stop helping people altogether, other than their own members, and leave the rest to the government to solve, which we know they are so capable of fixing, history has taught us this.

You don't need to tax a church just stop people righting of that part from there taxes, if you then tax the non profit then it double taxation, Then you have to tax the person that receives help from the non profits to make it fair, so it will be taxed 3 times.

I believe in the USA we don't beleive in double taxation, that is why you can write of the other taxes including sales tax from you federal tax.

[Walter Sobchak]

"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.” Mat. 22:21

My church does a lot of good and we know where every red cent goes.

Instead of taxing churches and non-profits, tax trial lawyers, lobbyists and entertainers/athletes at about 98%.

[Will Clark]

Great, then get the congress to stop spending money we don't have.

That's the problem. Their solution to everything is to spend, its better to cut where you can and streamline.

[LongShot]

I dont have a problem with churches acting like churches, nor non-profits acting like charities...What I do have a problem with is when these no-for-profit institutions start behaving like morally diluted corporations that think more of account balances than the people they are supposed to support.

Perhaps the solution is more in-depth laws governing the forming of non-profit organizations, or more active oversight...Of course the problems one would inherit with trying to enact any sort of change (up to and including taxation) would be close to, if not completely insurmountable.

Not all churches are going to behave like selfless institutions, nor all hospitals like houses of healing...as much as I would like to see the derelict pay taxes to level things, it would mean taxing those that honestly deserve their exempt status...whats the fair solution?

[nimer bortuqaal]

I think the that the tax code is all backward in the first place. One works hard to earn their money and is taxed on income. They spend the majority of their money on living expenses and are taxed along the way. Hopefully one has money left over to save and are taxed on their savings' interest or on their investment gains. Then as one transistions out of life they might leave some money and personnal property to a loved one and then that money is taxed again. A good portion of this money that is taxed multiple times is spent on social programs which can promote under-achievement

I say abolish the IRS as we know it and only collect money as it is spent. Some people make their money legally and some people make their money illegally. The later do not pay their fare share as well as some of the legal money makers through tax shelters and loopholes. It is the honest person who bears the tax burden most. I say a sales tax on everything you buy except food whether you are a business or just a normal old Joe. Now everyone pays; employed, non-employed, illegal immigrants, the drug pusher, the pimp, the laborer working under the table, the contraband smuggler. It would be now up to you if you want to pay tax or if you want to keep what you make and stuff it in your mattress. I would bet the tax base would increase and the burden on the individual would go down. You would now say pay 18% instead of 38% or whatever one pays with all of the combined taxes levied against us.

I say leave the churches to their tax exempt status (even on purchases) because I look at it like this: I can start a car club or a gun club, etc. and we can put our money in a pot and spend it how we please and no one cares. If you think of the church as a club where people can get together to do what they wish then maybe it changes things - noone wants to be told how they spend their free time or their money.

If you want to increase revenue and decrease spending, then stop the war on drugs and tax it heavily. I do not do drugs or even condone using them in the slightest, but you would be taking power away from thugs and drying up revenue for wars at the same time as you make some cash. Some of the money saved fighting the war on drugs could go to education against using drugs and on care for those hooked on drugs.

Just my three cents.

[commanding]

I think the that the tax code is all backward in the first place. One works hard to earn their money and is taxed on income. They spend the majority of their money on living expenses and are taxed along the way. Hopefully one has money left over to save and are taxed on their savings' interest or on their investment gains. Then as one transistions out of life they might leave some money and personnal property to a loved one and then that money is taxed again. A good portion of this money that is taxed multiple times is spent on social programs which can promote under-achievement

I say abolish the IRS as we know it and only collect money as it is spent. Some people make their money legally and some people make their money illegally. The later do not pay their fare share as well as some of the legal money makers through tax shelters and loopholes. It is the honest person who bears the tax burden most. I say a sales tax on everything you buy except food whether you are a business or just a normal old Joe. Now everyone pays; employed, non-employed, illegal immigrants, the drug pusher, the pimp, the laborer working under the table, the contraband smuggler. It would be now up to you if you want to pay tax or if you want to keep what you make and stuff it in your mattress. I would bet the tax base would increase and the burden on the individual would go down. You would now say pay 18% instead of 38% or whatever one pays with all of the combined taxes levied against us.

I say leave the churches to their tax exempt status (even on purchases) because I look at it like this: I can start a car club or a gun club, etc. and we can put our money in a pot and spend it how we please and no one cares. If you think of the church as a club where people can get together to do what they wish then maybe it changes things - noone wants to be told how they spend their free time or their money.

If you want to increase revenue and decrease spending, then stop the war on drugs and tax it heavily. I do not do drugs or even condone using them in the slightest, but you would be taking power away from thugs and drying up revenue for wars at the same time as you make some cash. Some of the money saved fighting the war on drugs could go to education against using drugs and on care for those hooked on drugs.

Just my three cents.

good idea!!! I like that. Tell you though you give the congress more money, they will spend every penny and then some. but i like your idea.