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Adux
02-19-2009, 12:26 PM
Faith Wars
By Ayesha Siddiqa
Saturday, 14 Feb, 2009 | 03:38 PM PST |
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http://dawn.net/wps/wcm/connect/fb09a0004d087418b06bf7ebb86833c7/beri-imam-ap-608.jpg?MOD=AJPERES
A Pakistani woman lights candles during prayers at the Sufi shrine Beri Iman on the outskirts of Islamabad. - Emilio Morenatti
Short Order Fatwa
http://dawn.net/wps/wcm/connect/fb09a0004d087418b070f7ebb86833c7/so-fatwa-178.jpg?MOD=AJPERES
Dawn Blog
(http://dawntravelshow.com/dblog/?p=60)
Discordant notes with Omran Shafique
http://dawn.net/wps/wcm/connect/fb09a0004d087418b074f7ebb86833c7/omran-178x100.jpg?MOD=AJPERES
Audio Slideshow
(http://dawn.net/wps/wcm/connect/dawn+content+library/dawn/news/pakistan/www.dawntravelshow.com/dawnanimation/Omran)


Ayesha Siddiqa speculates on the challenges which face this country in future years as part of Dawn.com's launch special 'Flash Forward Pakistan: Where do we go from here?'

Recently, Pakistan’s Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gillani lauded the role Sufi Islam could play in keeping the society away from religious extremism. Lest we consider this a personal bias, since he represents the Sufi tradition himself, similar sentiments were expressed by others as well. One such example is the 2007 RAND Corporation paper, Building Moderate Muslim Networks, which identifies Sufi Islam as one of the potential forces within an Islamic society that must be strengthened to fight the rising intolerance, extremism, and violence in Muslim societies. Although the RAND report pertained to the Middle East, it could be equally applied to Pakistan, which suffers from a high risk of religious conservatism often bordering on extremism.
Pakistan, in fact, makes an interesting case study for the battle between Sufi Islam and the much more rabid Salafi Islam for two obvious reasons. First, it is a country with equally dominant traditions and institutions of Sufi Islam that were critical in spreading the religion in the Indian Subcontinent. For that reason, many argue that Punjab, especially southern Punjab, which has drawn international attention particularly after the Mumbai attacks, cannot fall to Salafi Islam because it is a hub of Sufi – or what is popularly known as Barelvi – Islam. The wife of Pakistan’s ambassador to the US, Farahnaz Isphani, expressed such views a few months ago in a CNN interview. Second, unlike Turkey, where Sufi institutions were throttled by Kamal Attaturk, or Saudi Arabia, where the state shut down similar institutions to accommodate Salafi Islam, Sufi traditions have continued to thrive in Pakistan.
This raises the question about the viability of Sufi Islam to push back the forces of religious fundamentalism and extremism. Will Sufi Islam ultimately win the battle against Salafi Islam? More importantly, how has Salafi Islam managed to build inroads in areas once considered to be strongholds of Sufi Islam? The prime minister’s own home town Multan and all of southern Punjab have fallen pray to militancy and extremism. So, what is it that has pushed people away from the traditional patterns of faith?
For some scholars of Islam, especially those from the West such as Carl W. Ernst, Sufi Islam is a powerful force. In Pakistan’s society and politics, Sufi Islam represented by the shrines and pirs has always played a critical role. In fact, successive governments including that of Ayub Khan, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and Ziaul Haq representing different political traditions wooed the pirs or sajjada nasheens. There are many who believe that the rise in extremism is not a reflection on the waning strength of Sufi Islam because a majority of the people continue to owe allegiance to pirs. Quantitatively, Sufi Islam remains part of the popular religious tradition or a religion of the masses. Go to any shrine and you will observe hundreds and thousands of people, mainly the poor and destitute, congregating around the shrine and seeking forgiveness and a passport to heaven stamped by the living saint or pir.
It is precisely in these areas that Wahabism and Deobandi Islam seems to spread slowly but gradually. In fact, southern Punjab, once considered a hub of Sufi Islam, is a region lately making waves in terms of growing militancy. This is not to argue that the influence of pirs has reduced, but that there is a certain vacuum which is now being filled by a more rabid brand of Islam.
The reason for such developments pertains to the various complex socio-political and socioeconomic developments which have changed the face of the society. First, successive governments systematically tried to tailor institutions of Sufi Islam according to their own political needs. According to the scholar of Sufi Islam, Katherine Ewing, General Ayub Khan viewed the pirs and shrines as an impediment to his agenda of modernizing Pakistan and thus tried to control their growth and behavior by establishing alternative institutions such as the Auqaf. The ministry was meant not only to regulate the shrines and bring them under state control, but also use the opportunity to reduce the influence of the pirs and sajjada nasheens.
This objective, however, could not be achieved, as the control of the shrine did not minimize the influence of the pir who was considered by the people as the key interlocutor between them and God.
Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who followed Ayub Khan, did not directly challenge Sufi Islam as it was the popular religion followed by the masses. However, he continued with the Auqaf with the intent of regulating the influence of the pirs, some of whom were considered as political rivals. The pirs and shrines were so important as part of the indigenous religious tradition that despite the fact that Ziaul Haq subscribed to Salafi Islam, he could not demolish the influence of the pirs. However, the politics of successive governments further co-opted pirs in power politics.
Second, the decade of the 1980s was a major catalyst in providing new direction to traditional and conservative cultures. For instance, the call to jihad to free Afghanistan from Soviet invasion attracted a lot of people from southern Punjab. This influence was predated by the impact of southern Punjabis who had migrated to Saudi Arabia and the Gulf countries to work. These people brought Deobandi and Wahabi influences back with them.
Third, part of the process of the co-option of pirs by the state was the increase in their political power. Traditionally, the rulers cultivated the pirs through award of land and similar rewards. So, the pirs were effectively also major landowners of their area. Gradually, the pirs of their families began to take part in state politics as well, hence, becoming part of the hegemonic order in their areas. A pir was not just a spiritual leader, but also a major economic and political stakeholder.
Greater power not only enhanced the greed for more power but also resulted in corruption of the Sufi order. The spiritual control of people was used to manipulate the public in order to maintain political and economic power. Thus characters such as Pir Pagara used their following to build their political strength, which, in turn, was used to manipulate the state and gain greater personal dividends. The manipulation worked both ways. For instance, Ziaul Haq installed his hand picked man as the sajjada nasheen of the shrine of Bari Imam to influence the followers. The original family of pirs was thrown out and a new pir installed who was under greater control of the military dictator. Moreover, since, even powerful political people visited the shrines, these turned into places where important negotiations were carried out with the pirs acting as interlocutors. Senior bureaucrats and government officials would visit pirs who were frequented by top political leaders. The pir of Golra Sharif is one such example.
While the pirs became part of a hegemonic order that concentrated power in the hands of a few, a new class began to emerge which can be termed as the new capital. The trader-merchants in the rural areas, in particular, who represent the middle class, have the money but not the political capital. Their anxiety to gain political power emanates from the fact that the political system has no space to renegotiate power. This class then is critical in supporting and aiding the Wahabi and Deobandi forces through funding madrassahs and militancy. Contrary to the view that religious seminaries were always part of the local tradition, the new generation of madrassahs that are critical in encouraging militancy are a new phenomenon. Most of these began to grow under Ziaul Haq’s reign and were initially known for fanning sectarian hatred that then evolved into encouraging extremist values.
The madrassahs and militant outfits attracted pockets of lower class and politically and economically dispossessed people who did not have a future due to the hegemonic system. Since the pirs were also the hegemons, the Wahabi and Deobandi clerics could not only build a case against them, but also against Sufi Islam.
Hence, purely in qualitative terms, Wahabi and Deobandi Islam appear an alternative to the dispossessed, especially the youth. While the educated ones amongst the younger lot of the population see Salafi Islam as a way of challenging the hegemonic order, though unconsciously, others are attracted to this brand of Islam due to the sense of empowerment it provides and its comparative modernity. In a hegemonic system where access to God is based on the whims of an individual, Salafi Islam appears attractive to many, as it does not pose such conditions. The path to God and spiritualism also means that people can only get access through the pir, which in turn means negotiating through the cronies or khalifas (religious assistants) of the pir. This is certainly an arduous task as compared to what Salafi Islam offers – the route to God and forgiveness can be obtained through martyrdom. Further, martyrs contribute to transforming the future of other Muslims, which ensures that they would be rewarded in the next life. In addition, the martyr would earn greater rewards such as 70 hooris, a crown of gold and jewels, and the ability to seek forgiveness for seventy other people. Interestingly, the visualization of jihad is about freeing helpless Muslim women from brutal un-Islamic governments.
Furthermore, Salafi Islam appears much more modern in outlook. For instance, the militant outfits use published literature, CDs, and DVDs to disseminate their message. The pirs on the other hand depend on word of mouth and traditions to attract people. In any case, the pirs and sajjada nasheens are limited in their capacity to reach out to people. While they seek offerings from the disciples, they hardly use modern techniques to reach out to the people.
Sufi Islam certainly has a lot of potential in stemming the tide of extremism in the country. It is also a much more tolerant and secular form of religion that reaches out to all sorts of people irrespective of their caste, creed, ethnicity, colour, or race. However, the fulfillment of this potential is another matter. In the coming decade, more and more people will continue to drift towards Salafi Islam due to a lack of options.

http://dawn.net/wps/wcm/connect/f18038004d087418b05ff7ebb86833c7/1/ayesha_siddiqa.jpg?MOD=AJPERESDr.Ayesha Siddiqa is an independent security analyst and strategic affairs columnist for Dawn. She obtained her Doctorate from King's College London in 1996 and held the 'Pakistan Scholar' chair at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars from 2004-2005. Her most recent book, Military Inc. was released in 2007 and is considered one of the foremost academic works on the Pakistani defense establishment.


http://dawn.net/wps/wcm/connect/dawn+content+library/dawn/news/pakistan/Faith-Wars-yn?


I have said this before, how Saudi Arabia is funding Salafism all across the globe, especially in Pakistan and other parts of South Asia, to do a vatican of the 21st century. This is a serious development, and it talks about the ideology we convenitly forget!!

Adux
02-19-2009, 12:28 PM
Ordie and anyone who is interested in the change of Pakistan from a whiskey wheeling semi-moderate to hardcore islamist, then the answer lies here

Nansouty
02-20-2009, 06:04 AM
Most interesting read, Addux. A very useful link for anyone wanting to understand the workings of sufism in an islamic society. Thanks!

abztract
02-21-2009, 02:13 PM
It seems that all the information this writer has collected about Sufism is through books and at best by meeting a few people who claim to be Sufi's.

In order to avoid argument, ill try to explain something Imam Abu Hamid Al-Ghazali said. Ghazali is accepted by Sufis as one of the finest in their field, accepted by the west as the best Islamic theologist to have ever lived, and accepted by Salafis as one of the most knowledgeable people in tazkiya sciences- Ghazali said that Sufism is not understood through words, it’s understood through experience. Someone who has experienced it can’t even do justice to the experience by trying to define it using the minute explanative scope of language.

So when a person can’t describe the science of Sufism in words properly. I ask, how can the writer even attempt at describing the workings of Sufism in an Islamic society without being in a dream world where she views Sufism as humor? Of course, it's understandable that her humor comes from the general perception of Sufi's in our society, the Sufi's who get intoxicated and dance - They're a disgrace to the name of Islam, in fact they're a disgrace to the name of humanity.

Pure Sufism does not teach anything that is even doubtful in Islam. It has very strong basis of spreading Islam, and a decently strong basis of raising sword against oppressor. And certainly no basis in shrine worship business.

In short, real Sufism does exist in Pakistan - and that Sufism is a part of Islam, just like Salafi science is a part of Islam. Both co-exist with peace, and in the purest form both lead in the same direction, and are essential for Islam. It’s absurd even suggesting that there could possibly be a 'War' between Salafi & Sufi Islam. It’s like suggesting that there could be war between two arms of A man.

The writer keeps trying to break Islam into factions at every point; she mentions Deoband and Wahabi Islam as well. Islam is a complete religion- everything in Islam goes back to the same roots – I might sound immature suggesting this, but removing all that has been incorrectly added to each one of the factions of Islam reveals ISLAM in purest form, and surprisingly enough, all of them have the same thing at the root. And even more surprising, there are still people who practice each one of the ‘factions’ in purest form – they don’t really have any factions, considering they’re true Muslims.

So, I’d suggest that dear Ms. Siddiqa first do her research properly, and try to write something which is within her mental capacity to understand and comprehend; not something which would lead people astray.

JazakAllah

abztract
02-21-2009, 02:28 PM
Mr. Adux, let me assure you that the 'whiskey wheeling semi-moderate' as you define it, or 'extreme' where they kill innocent people is not Islam at all.
When a person uses the word Islam; it should mean 'peace' and 'submission to Gods will' - not crazy retards drinking alcohol or killing people.
So, I'll have to say this; You’re not doing justice to the religion, or to humanity by associating Islam with concepts which Islam itself denounces.

=)

Ordie
02-21-2009, 04:03 PM
I've attended a Mevlevi Sufi ceremony of the "Whirling Dervish" in San Francisco. It's one of the most incredible form of worship I've seen.

Rumi, a Persian Sufi Theologan, is one of my favorite poets.

ggk
02-21-2009, 06:21 PM
read the title...and adux summary are...the saudis want to take over the world...

abztract
02-21-2009, 09:00 PM
like I said, Real/Pure/True Sufism; the Sufism which existed during the first few generations after the Prophet (PBUH), and still exists in a few parts does not allow anything that is even doubtful in Islam.
Music and Dancing is FORBIDDEN in Islam. Ask any Muslim who has basic knowledge about religon, eh open The Holy Book, or Book of Prophets (PBUH) sayings, you'd see what I mean.
"Whirling Dervish" pretty much does everything Islam forbids, I dont see how anyone could even link it to Islam, let alone say its a form of worship!
The whole problem came in Sufism, when people started letting go off Islamic Law in order to achieve a spirtually high state, that was indeed the way through which Islam (Submission to Gods will) was achieved, but it was to strictly remain within the boundaries of Islamic Law.
The new forms of Sufism mainly does that- first, it makes 'spiritual high' state the goal of Islam (The goal is to Submitt, not Dance or be intoxicated). Secondly, it allows for Law to be ignored.

abztract
02-21-2009, 09:04 PM
And rumi is indeed a brilliant poet, try reading his poetry thinking hes madly in love with God, not anyone from this earth!
and try removing the music and dance effect, you'd see how he really meant to write it and how he wanted the reader to read his work.

Adux
02-22-2009, 01:20 AM
I love Wahabi bots! Your answer sums up what I feel and know about Islam, especially the Saudi Arabian variety, and Dear Sir, Ayesha Siddiqui has achieved quite a lot, and is a humantarian par excellence. Sufism has always been a sutle and soft version of Islam, and I am sure there are quite few who wouldnt want to see that!

ggk
02-22-2009, 01:24 AM
I love Wahabi bots! Your answer sums up what I feel and know about Islam, especially the Saudi Arabian variety, and Dear Sir, Ayesha Siddiqui has achieved quite a lot, and is a humantarian par excellence. Sufism has always been a sutle and soft version of Islam, and I am sure there are quite few who wouldnt want to see that!

dont judge...

Ordie
02-22-2009, 01:37 AM
Adux,
Fundamentalism exist in every religion or idealology.

How one worships his or her creator or supreme being is a personal matter.

There is no right or wrong "Islam".

Sufi is one of many schools of thought within the Islamic family, just as Methodist are within Christianity.

To me, how one uses religion to manipulate innocents into doing desperate acts is a cult.

In this respect, Al Qaida is a cult.

If anything, Al Qaida is anti-Wahabbist as they are associated to the "immoral" Saudi Royal Family.

Adux
02-22-2009, 07:09 AM
Ordie,

He is trying to have a religious conversation here, stating that somehow his interpretation of Islam is the right one,without hearing the other side. There is no possibilty of a different interpretation in his version, nor the capability of letting someone else follow his wish or his version. That is the difference between other religious sects and them, There are powerful states and forces who support and promote these people. That is also another difference. There are huge following of clearly ignorant worshippers for these people, That is also another difference.

timetraveller
02-22-2009, 09:14 AM
Ordie,

He is trying to have a religious conversation here, stating that somehow his interpretation of Islam is the right one,without hearing the other side. There is no possibilty of a different interpretation in his version, nor the capability of letting someone else follow his wish or his version. That is the difference between other religious sects and them, There are powerful states and forces who support and promote these people. That is also another difference. There are huge following of clearly ignorant worshippers for these people, That is also another difference.

What do you expect .. Your on par with a Fisherman standing beside the lake waiting to see whom takes the bait .

Ordie
02-22-2009, 10:34 AM
What do you expect .. Your on par with a Fisherman standing beside the lake waiting to see whom takes the bait .

The irony here is nethier Adux nor myself know's jack SH.T about Islam and Muslims in general.

Heck I'm Roman Catholic and I'm no expert on Christianity.

I started to think Marx is right about religion.

Adux
02-22-2009, 11:34 AM
One does not have to be a religious scholar to find that most religion,and especially Islam in todays day and age;go against values of humanism that we hold dearly. It is that black and white!

ggk
02-22-2009, 11:55 AM
One does not have to be a religious scholar to find that most religion,and especially Islam in todays day and age;go against values of humanism that we hold dearly. It is that black and white!

and how is that? adux please explain....

takavar92
02-22-2009, 12:04 PM
One does not have to be a religious scholar to find that most religion,and especially Islam in todays day and age;go against values of humanism that we hold dearly. It is that black and white!

yup, how is that adux?

Adux
02-22-2009, 12:49 PM
Secularism, Women rights, Rights of free expression etc etc !!!

ggk
02-22-2009, 12:54 PM
Secularism, Women rights, Rights of free expression etc etc !!!

i said explain... how does religion, especially islam go against values of humanism that we hold dearly.

explain in detail...if you dare that is.

Ulytau
02-22-2009, 01:08 PM
Secularism, Women rights, Rights of free expression etc etc !!!

As a Muslim person i know many people care about that around of me cause some issues are always beein personal..

Also simple words are simple thats it cause rememberin very well when some idiots are blaming to us when we showin our reaction about secularism in Turkiye they were showin to us same things 'Women Rights (only bout Hijab) Rights of Free expression (Blaming to Turkish Republic,Military etc) without balance you cant do any sh*t if a country launch very serious operation aganist some people especially radicals in their country you can be sure you can hear same words from the some dudes.

Check about the Wahabism their FIRST allieds they fight aganist who and who supported em in history and aganist WHO.

Adux
02-22-2009, 01:10 PM
Waabhism is still aligned to the WEST, STILL. USA still hasnt learned if you ask me. Its not for you to decide what or who a person can live their lives.

ggk
02-22-2009, 01:24 PM
Waabhism is still aligned to the WEST, STILL. USA still hasnt learned if you ask me. Its not for you to decide what or who a person can live their lives.

yeah yeah...and please i m still waiting for your explaination....i am patient. i will wait for your to do your googling first.

abztract
02-22-2009, 02:56 PM
flet me tell you one thing common in all schools of Islam. UNCONDITIONALLY FOLLOWING THE HOLY BOOK (QURAN) AND FOLLOWING THE SAYINGS OF THE PROPHET (PBUH).
all I'm saying is, whoever follows these two 'things' UNCONDIONALLY will be a muslim.
And then comes my point, not my school, not his/her school - whoever follows these two things strictly will lie in one school - thats the school of Islam. you see?
there is no contradiciton or multiple interpretations in Islam, if all the crap people add to religon beyond the two articles listed above is removed.
how do you expect a different interpretation of a BOOK? The second interpretation only comes in when you go beyond the book, or dont get into the book at all.

I didnt realise you didnt know anything about Islam. I thought you guys knew alot about Islam and Sufism- thats why I got into a discussion which a normal 'englightened' muslim wouldnt even get into.

Incase you want to look into it and see if you can find a second interpretation of the BOOK/ISLAM/RELIGON - youre most welcomed to do so yourself, just dont go read articles written by ignorant fools trying to break Islam into many peices.

heres the link to the book:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/af14938/n/english_quraan_mufti_taqi_pdf

I assure you, whatever you understand after reading this book would be the only interpretation Islam has - and you'd know what I mean when you see some other interpretation of these words// and you'd realise that the 'huge following of clearly ignorant worshippers' isnt really ignorant. // and you'd also see that extreme/Wahabi/fundamentalist all are just words used to describe normal Islam and moderate/enlightened/whiskey-wheeling are terms used to describe the real extreme. and I'm sure it would answer all other questions you have about Islam.

Ordie
02-22-2009, 03:04 PM
Religion, no matter of what faith, is unconditionally open to interpetation.

Adux
02-22-2009, 05:21 PM
Religion, no matter of what faith, is unconditionally open to interpetation.
as it should be

abztract
02-22-2009, 11:30 PM
this is point where we have different views. not at the point where I was called a Wahabi/exteme/fundamentalist.
I have one argument, If you have faith in the concept of heaven and hell - then there could be only a finite scope of deeds that could take you to heaven, right?
how then can interpretation come in when the entry pass is only gotten through one way?
Or are you suggesting that a rapist and a faithfull follower of religon both will go to heaven because they have different interpretation of the same thing?

ggk
02-22-2009, 11:43 PM
^^^Adux a self proclaimed atheist

ayanami_tard
02-22-2009, 11:46 PM
generally speaking(most people don't understand anyway)salafism is the simplest way as it can be

(i prefer most of their view,practice,etc)

exp:in shafie school,anything not permissible by the Book and muhammad teaching is forbidden to eat

BUT

in salafism,anything not forbidden by the Book and muhammad teaching is permissible to eat

see the paradox?

Ordie
02-23-2009, 12:09 AM
I have one argument, If you have faith in the concept of heaven and hell - then there could be only a finite scope of deeds that could take you to heaven, right?

It's up to interpetation.

For Christians, going to heaven equals salvation

From a Roman Catholic point of view, salvation can be achieved thorough grace, sacraments (rites)* and good works.

From a Protestant point of view, salvation can be achieved through faith alone.

For non-Christians

The Roman Catholics believe it is possible for someone outside the church to be saved (going to heaven) regardless of religious beliefs.

The Protestants (depending on demonimation) believe if one is not saved, they may spend an enternity in Hell.

Sacraments: Baptism, Confession, First Communion, Confirmation (akin to a Barmitzvah) Marriage, Holy Orders (Priesthood), and Last Rites (Final Blessing upon death)

Ordie
02-23-2009, 12:46 AM
Or are you suggesting that a rapist and a faithfull follower of religon both will go to heaven because they have different interpretation of the same thing?

I'm not a theologian.

But I think you're refering to Jesus's parable of the vineyard workers.

Where workers were rewarded the same pay regardless of hours worked, in reference to no matter at what stage in life a person will receive equal treatment in heaven as those who have been faithful the longest.

abztract
02-23-2009, 03:46 AM
so..
now youre saying that there are different gods according to different interpretations who judge people based on how they're interpreted?

I wasnt specifically refering to Jesus's parable of the vineyard workers.
But taking that parable, if my twisted interpretation says that even after rejecting the 'invitation to heaven' i will go to heaven. And someone else's interpretation strictly sticks to the real parable. Will be both still go to heaven?

you're make lesser sense by the post.
and I have a feeling there's no use arguing with you anymore.

Ordie
02-23-2009, 04:59 AM
so..
now youre saying that there are different gods according to different interpretations who judge people based on how they're interpreted?

No, just one God, but interpeted and re-examined over the centuries. Historically, the Roman Catholic Church held the interpetation of the Bible over an illiterate people in Latin.

It wasn't until Martin Luther, a former monk, that led the Protestant reformation by translating the Bible in the common language and promoting literacy.

It also broke the Catholic Church political monopoly of power over some kingdoms within Europe, more specifically the English.

In many ways, the reformation was a re-wakening for both Catholics and Protestant alike.

Among the Protestants, the Calvinist has the most complicated interpetation about predestination and salvation.

The idea of Free Will also has a profound impact in Western philosophy and religion.


I wasnt specifically refering to Jesus's parable of the vineyard workers.
But taking that parable, if my twisted interpretation says that even after rejecting the 'invitation to heaven' i will go to heaven. And someone else's interpretation strictly sticks to the real parable. Will be both still go to heaven?

Regardless of piety over the years or in the 11th hour, as long as one seeks forgiveness and repents his or her sins, salvation is given....but ultimately its up to God to judge.


you're make lesser sense by the post.
and I have a feeling there's no use arguing with you anymore.

Hey.....I didn't make this up.

I what I've learned in Catholic School

abztract
02-23-2009, 08:47 AM
we're back at square one.
you gave all that history to sum up at the end that one school has different interpretation than other?
I never rejected that in the first place, All I said was that multiple interpretations in ISLAM mean there is something wrong with every interpretation but one.
my arguments still hold. you didnt respond to any of them.
anyways, I'm going to stop responding now.

Have a nice day.

Ordie
02-23-2009, 09:21 AM
we're back at square one.
you gave all that history to sum up at the end that one school has different interpretation than other?
I never rejected that in the first place, All I said was that multiple interpretations in ISLAM mean there is something wrong with every interpretation but one.
my arguments still hold. you didnt respond to any of them.
anyways, I'm going to stop responding now.

Have a nice day.

Well......at least I gave it a shot.
There's really no right or wrong...but to understand what motivates people.

As always, religion today has more to do with power, politics and cultural identity.

From my point of view, Al Qaida is not Islamic, but a death cult that takes advantage of people's ignorance, and fears.

Wahabbist has more to do with Arabian tribal culture and norms backed by Saudi oil money exported as a cargo culture throughout the Islamic world.

Shia is synounomous with the Persians as Sunni's is to Arabians. And the Shia is backed from Tehran as to increse it sphere of influence.

abztract
02-23-2009, 11:15 AM
I agree with everything you say.
religion today has more to do with power, politics and cultural identity indeed.

the discussion was never about naming different sects of Islam or giving their history. It was more sort of about the non political aspect of Islam, which is the real aspect.

You're responding again from the point of a person who has never experienced true Islam.
Just read over this:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/af14938/n/english_quraan_mufti_taqi_pdf

Youd understand everything a billion times better. You'd see the faults and extremes. Your hatred for Al Qaeda would increase, I assure you =)