China: Looted cultural relics should be returned

[Fage]

By GILLIAN WONG
http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/i/msnbc/Components/Sources/Art/APTRANS.gif updated 10:08 a.m. ET Feb. 24, 2009

BEIJING - China said Tuesday that it was "ridiculous" for the longtime partner of late French fashion icon Yves Saint Laurent who owns two Chinese imperial bronzes to say he would return the relics to Beijing if the government gave Tibet freedom.

The disputed Chinese bronze fountainheads — of a rabbit and a rat — are due to go on sale at a three-day Paris auction of art from the collection of the late French fashion designer. China has opposed the auction, saying the artifacts should be returned.

Pierre Berge, the longtime partner of the French fashion icon, has suggested that the Chinese government should worry about its human rights record.

"The only thing I ask is for the Chinese government to have human rights, to give liberty to the Tibet people and to welcome the Dalai Lama," Berge said Monday.

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Ma Zhaoxu rejected Berge's suggestion of a swap, saying the auction of the looted imperial bronzes is an offense to the Chinese people.

"To infringe upon Chinese people's cultural rights under the pretext of human rights, this is just ridiculous," he said.

"In modern history, Western imperial powers have looted a lot of China's cultural relics including those in the Summer Palace," Ma said. "These cultural relics should be returned to China."

China's State Administration of Cultural Heritage wrote to auction house Christie's last week urging it to stop the auction, the official Xinhua News Agency reported. An agency spokesman said Christie's had replied, but declined to discuss specifics, the report said.

On Monday, a French judge refused to halt the sale of the Chinese artifacts.

In Hong Kong, a small group protested outside the French consulate Tuesday, holding banners and chanting slogans to demand the return of the bronzes.

"These two items are national treasures. They shouldn't be put up for sale in auction," said pro-Beijing lawmaker Chan Hak-kan. "France has a moral responsibility to return the two Chinese bronze fountainheads intact to China."

The bronze heads disappeared from the summer Imperial Palace on the outskirts of Beijing when French and British forces sacked it at the close of the second Opium War in 1860.

The fountainheads date to the early Qing Dynasty, established by invading Manchu tribesmen in 1644. The Christie's catalog says they were made for the Zodiac fountain of the summer Imperial Palace.

They are expected to sell for up to $13 million each, according to pre-auction estimates.

A China-linked group, APACE, had sought to block the sale of the bronzes. The group acknowledged that Saint Laurent acquired the bronzes legally, but said they should be returned to China or at least displayed in a museum.

Christie's said in a statement earlier this month that while it "respects the cultural context around the sale of the fountainheads, we respectfully believe the auction will proceed."

The issue threatens to further strain tensions with France that have led to protests and calls from the Chinese public to boycott French goods. China canceled a December summit with the European Union to protest talks between French President Nicolas Sarkozy and Tibet's exiled spiritual leader the Dalai Lama, whom the Chinese accuse of supporting Tibetan separatism.
___
Associated Press writer Dikky Sinn contributed to this report from Hong Kong.

Source:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29362821/

[BearInBunnySuit]

No matter how strong China's claim to the relic is, no court will ever rule in its favor because it will open up a Pandora's box of what to do about other national treasures that have been similarly looted or taken as trophies.

[Hollis]

No matter how strong China's claim to the relic is, no court will ever rule in its favor because it will open up a Pandora's box of what to do about other national treasures that have been similarly looted or taken as trophies.


It is a dilemma, that is one thing for sure. I can understand China's claim.

[Laworkerbee]

I can understand China's claim.

X2 And this guys response feels like he is now holding the pieces hostage.

[Red_Rage]

If everything went back to their rightful owners than wonderful museums like Louvre, British History Museum, and my favorite Hermitage would cease to be half as interesting.

I imagine Egypt would have quite a few claims as well, if such a precedent was ever to be made.

[LineDoggie]

Source:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29362821/

Tango Sierra

[BearInBunnySuit]

If everything went back to their rightful owners than wonderful museums like Louvre, British History Museum, and my favorite Hermitage would cease to be half as interesting.

I imagine Egypt would have quite a few claims as well, if such a precedent was ever to be made.

Exactly ...

[IraGlacialis]

If everything went back to their rightful owners than wonderful museums like Louvre, British History Museum, and my favorite Hermitage would cease to be half as interesting.I think the major point of contention is the method of which the pieces were obtained, which was by looting and force.
Most of the pieces you see in major museums were purchased/excavated while the host government during the time wasn't fussing over that fact (we aren't going to quibble over the legality of those transactions).

But, on the other hand, a point could be made that if those pieces are returned, then the whole "give them an inch and they will take a mile" scenario might go into effect.


I imagine Egypt would have quite a few claims as well, if such a precedent was ever to be made.Frankly, my philosophy is that once the type of culture drastically changes, what the nation doesn't protect is fair game to be in a museum not in that country.
There is such a distinct difference between Pharoaic Egypt and modern day Egypt, with many different changing cultures in between (Ptolemaic, Roman, Islamic), that the point is pretty moot.

[Red_Rage]

I think the major point of contention is the method of which the pieces were obtained, which was by looting and force.
Most of the pieces you see in major museums were purchased/excavated while the host government during the time wasn't fussing over that fact (we aren't going to quibble over the legality of those transactions).

But, on the other hand, a point could be made that if those pieces are returned, then the whole "give them an inch and they will take a mile" scenario might go into effect.

Frankly, my philosophy is that once the type of culture drastically changes, what the nation doesn't protect is fair game to be in a museum not in that country.
There is such a distinct difference between Pharoaic Egypt and modern day Egypt, with many different changing cultures in between (Ptolemaic, Roman, Islamic), that the point is pretty moot.



I agree with all points, especially pertaining to Egypt. Fact remains that those relics are hell of a lot safer and better preserved in European museums than they will ever be in their native countries.
Let's hope the "rightful owners" see it that way.

[Ordie]

I propose that the relics should be handed over to the National Palace Museum in Taipei. I least we know they will be safe there.

Ironically, I find it interesting that all of a sudden the PRC government 'cares' about historical relics. Especially since the PRC government was responsible for the destruction of the Tartar Walls of Beijing in the 1950's, priceless Chinese artifacts and books during the Cultural Revolution and demolition of centuries old housing, buildings and temples with the Three Gorges Dam and for the Olympics in Beijing.

[SBL]

Ironically, I find it interesting that all of a sudden the PRC government 'cares' about historical relics. Especially since the PRC government was responsible for the destruction of the Tartar Walls of Beijing in the 1950's, priceless Chinese artifacts and books during the Cultural Revolution and demolition of centuries old housing, buildings and temples with the Three Gorges Dam and for the Olympics in Beijing.
Heh, my thoughts exactly. If they want to make an offer to buy the artifacts, that's fine, but the PRC doesn't have a real great track record of preserving what they do have.

[I can't think of a name]

I propose that the relics should be handed over to the National Palace Museum in Taipei. I least we know they will be safe there.

Ironically, I find it interesting that all of a sudden the PRC government 'cares' about historical relics. Especially since the PRC government was responsible for the destruction of the Tartar Walls of Beijing in the 1950's, priceless Chinese artifacts and books during the Cultural Revolution and demolition of centuries old housing, buildings and temples with the Three Gorges Dam and for the Olympics in Beijing.

That was part of the leg the old GMD stood on. Many see Taiwan as a place where old Chinese culture is preserved. Chaing took a lot of national treasures to Taiwan with him.

Also and basic reading on the Cultural Revolution will show how much the PRC respects Chinese culture.

[IraGlacialis]

I propose that the relics should be handed over to the National Palace Museum in Taipei. I least we know they will be safe there.
That will be a wonderful can of worms to open.

But I definitely agree that PRC haven't been exactly the best stewards of Chinese heritage, which is why (though I can see the precedent to return them) I am not saying that China should actually get the relics back. What wasn't destroyed deliberately during the Cultural Revolution is now being swept aside in the name of progress. I am actually surprised that the Forbidden City, being an ultimate symbol of the Empire, was spared destruction.
Many of the artifacts that are in places such as the Met, British Museum, Nelson-Atkins, etc may not be around if they were still in China.

[Ordie]

Also and basic reading on the Cultural Revolution will show how much the PRC respects Chinese culture.

It understandible given that much of the current leadership in China were victims of the Cultural Revolution. And much work has been done to restore on what they have today.

But given the destruction of historical sites on the premise of progress gives me some doubts.

Much of the relics in China today on display is bronze age dug up from the ground and Xin Dynasty like the Terra Cotta warriors in the past 25-30 years.

The most treasured items are in Taipei where only 10% of it is on public display at the National Palace Museum.

[ronnieraygun]

Associated Press writer Dikky Sinn contributed to this report from Hong Kong.


Yves Saint Laurent, colonialism and stolen relics in the same thread? Thanks to Dikky Sinn.

Anyone every find out what happened to the museum of anitquities in Baghdad? I had heard a lot of the stuff magically showed back up.

[damagejackal]

Too bad China dosent have a cashed up Rupert Murdoch or Kerry Stokes style businessman, willing to shell out hundreds of thousands in "anonymous purchases" of cultural relics.

I know thats how Australia has managed to keep its Victoria Crosses from being bought by foreigners.


,

[Ordie]

Too bad China dosent have a cashed up Rupert Murdoch or Kerry Stokes style businessman, willing to shell out hundreds of thousands in "anonymous purchases" of cultural relics.

I know thats how Australia has managed to keep its Victoria Crosses from being bought by foreigners.


,

It's a shame because there's no tradition of philantropy and patronage of the arts in China. It's too bad since many of the traditional arts and crafts (Peking Opera, Folk Arts, Traditional Furniture Making, Music etc...) are fading quickly since the youth are not interested.

Ironically it seems that the foriegners are the ones cares more about preserving Chinese culture than the Chinese.

For example, the Asian Art Museum in San Francisco is named after a Korean-American benefactor in a city known for its notable Chinese community.

[gaijinsamurai]

Unless the relics were legitimately acquired from China, they should returned to Beijing.

Pandora's Box be damned.....

[honcda_hon]

That was part of the leg the old GMD stood on. Many see Taiwan as a place where old Chinese culture is preserved. Chaing took a lot of national treasures to Taiwan with him.

Also and basic reading on the Cultural Revolution will show how much the PRC respects Chinese culture.


agree, if you don't know the change of the China, please don't just guess.

[Chulo]

Someone looted a Tibet too... i heard...

[khukuri]

theft is theft, no matter what fine words and semantics you dress it in. The west needs to return all the shameful looting it did.

[Henry's Fork]

Someone is still looting Tibet too... i heard...

Fixed for ya. :-(

[USMCRTop]

Theft is theft but but some people could argue things taken in the Opium wars are legitimate victor's spoils (we won you lost)- where does it end ?/ Why not return Saint sophia (in Istanbul) to the Orthodox Church ?? It was a church longer than a Mosque. It is a very complex

[Ordie]

Theft is theft but but some people could argue things taken in the Opium wars are legitimate victor's spoils (we won you lost)- where does it end ?/ Why not return Saint sophia (in Istanbul) to the Orthodox Church ?? It was a church longer than a Mosque. It is a very complex

Or the remains of St. Mark in Venice to Alexandria, Eygpt.

[wildcat]

If china wants them back, the buy them back, very quite simple.

[Kilgor]

I see the Chinese indignity at looting doesn't extend to intellectual property theft.

[matthew.manhorn]

I wonder how many cultural relics did the communist party destroy during the cultural revolution before Zhou Enlai intervened? Sorry CCP it's too late to play the nationalist card. I'm against the CCP on this one, the relics that the Brits looted came from riches that the Qing dynasty looted from its civilians. Looters who got looted don't deserve my sympathy.

[matthew.manhorn]

(Peking Opera, Folk Arts, Traditional Furniture Making, Music etc...) are fading quickly since the youth are not interested.

Coincidentally, as much as I love Chinese history and culture, I hate Peking Opera and their high pitched voices.

[TheMiddlePath]

BEIJING, Feb. 24 -- Rebuffed by a French court, China (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/china.html?nav=el) was not giving up Tuesday on efforts to block the auction of two historic bronze sculptures that evoke memories of one of China's greatest humiliations at the hands of foreign powers.
The bronze heads of a rat and a rabbit, part of a once-magnificent fountain of Chinese zodiac animals in Beijing's Summer Palace, were looted by pillaging French and British troops in 1860, during the Second Opium War. Five of the 12 heads have been recovered and are now displayed in a Beijing museum. But after a cultural group led by a Chinese lawyer who has previously represented Chinese state interests appealed to stop the auction, a Paris court rejected the case and fined the plaintiffs for holding up the sale, which started Monday.
On Tuesday, the Chinese government officially weighed in. "The State Administration of Cultural Heritage has formally informed the auctioneer of our strong opposition to the auction and clearly demanded its cancellation," Foreign Ministry spokesman Ma Zhaoxu said during a news conference.
The auction, from the estate of French fashion designer Yves Saint Laurent, continued Tuesday and has already garnered headlines for the attention it has generated amid an art market downturn. The bronzes are estimated to be worth nearly $13 million.

Ma also rejected an offer by Saint Laurent's former business manager and companion to return the sculptures in exchange for Chinese human rights guarantees and permission for the exiled spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, to return to Tibet. "Using the pretext of human rights to infringe on the Chinese people's fundamental cultural rights is just ridiculous," Ma said.
Chinese-French relations are tense after Beijing cancelled an economic summit last year because French President Nicolas Sarkozy decided to meet the Dalai Lama, whom Beijing regards as a dangerous separatist.
Ma praised the recent visit of U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton for producing "positive results." Clinton over the weekend largely ignored the pleas of human rights activists and said human rights issues should not be allowed to interfere with U.S.-China cooperation on the economy and climate change.

[IraGlacialis]

Or the remains of St. Mark in Venice to Alexandria, Eygpt.
Or the Hippodrome horse statues back to Constantinople/Istanbul from, again, Venice.

[Invisigoth]

China strong!!1111

[Ed Robinson]

khukuri. theft is theft, no matter what fine words and semantics you dress it in. The west needs to return all the shameful looting it did. 02-24-2009 04:34 PM

So do you plan on going to the Imperial War Museum and handing back all the captured war trophies?
Got any military souvenirs? You might want to hand them back as well.

KilgorI see the Chinese indignity at looting doesn't extend to intellectual property theft.

woot.

[khaz]

Bill sold china staging tech for thier rockets to fund his election, wonder what hillary sold them.

[Mr.Flint]

So why is that frenchy is a thief? After all he stole nothing...

[I can't think of a name]

theft is theft, no matter what fine words and semantics you dress it in. The west needs to return all the shameful looting it did.

Western Sinophiles have showed more appreciation and better stewardship the past 50 years than the jerks in Beijing have. The CPC cannot just change their mind because they want to make money off it. Thinking Chinese should have Chinese relics is also a dubious theory.

[xav]

Must be a slow news day in China... for this kind of story to make the news.

[gaijinsamurai]

khukuri. theft is theft, no matter what fine words and semantics you dress it in. The west needs to return all the shameful looting it did. 02-24-2009 04:34 PM

So do you plan on going to the Imperial War Museum and handing back all the captured war trophies?
Got any military souvenirs? You might want to hand them back as well.

KilgorI see the Chinese indignity at looting doesn't extend to intellectual property theft.

woot.

Stupid argument. Perhaps you ought to look up "looting" and "captured" in a dictionary, and learn the difference.

Rudolf Hess' BF109 fuselage and the Jagpanther sitting in the IWM are not the same as the art stolen by Herman Goering or the Chinese artifacts stolen in the Opium Wars (while your at it, Google The Opium Wars, and you'll likely learn that it was a case of blatant aggression on the part of Britain and the West).

I agree wholeheartedly that the Chinese should get the hell out of Tibet, compensate the Tibetan people for what's happened to them, and return all cultural treasures taken since their invasion/occupation.

But to use it as an excuse to keep priceless items which are the Chinese peoples' cultural heritage only fuels the type of nationalism that leads them to continue to thumb their noses at the West and call us hypocrites.

[Kilgor]

Im very lazy so ill wikipedia this

China's historical reserves, artifacts and sites of interest suffered devastating damage as they were thought to be at the root of "old ways of thinking". Many artifacts were seized from private homes and often destroyed on the spot. There are no records of exactly how much was destroyed. Western observers suggest that much of China's thousands of years of history was in effect destroyed during the short ten years of the Cultural Revolution, and that such destruction of historical artifacts is unmatched at any time or place in human history. Chinese historians compare the cultural suppression during the Cultural Revolution to Qin Shihuang's great Confucian purge. The most prominent symbol of academic research in archaeology, the journal Kaogu, did not publish during the Cultural Revolution. Religious persecution, in particular, intensified during this period, because religion was seen as being opposed to Marxist-Leninist and Maoist thinking.

The commies love a good purge now and then. But lets have a sook over a few statues. Maybe the PRC could smash them and finish the job ?

[gaijinsamurai]

Perhaps the PRC can pay the "owners" of such artifacts a handsome fee for protecting them from their own stupidity during the Cultural Revolution.

Obviously, not all Chinese art should be returned. That would be ludicrous. But pieces which can be directly linked to blatant theft, as opposed to legitimate purchases from short-sighted, greedy Chinese government officials or dealers, should be returned.

[Toolhead]

Exactly ...



well the funny thing about Egypt for the longest time they didn't give a **** about their ancient relics n' stuff iirc the Greeks unearthed a bunch a **** while the Egyptians didn't really care

[I can't think of a name]

Also you guys are under the assumption that these would be returned to the "Chinese People"

More than likely these will go straight to the Absolute Party that runs the country and will serve to LINE THEIR Pockets and FUNCTION as State propaganda fomenting Han Nationalism.

[Mobydog]

Stupid argument. Perhaps you ought to look up "looting" and "captured" in a dictionary, and learn the difference.

Rudolf Hess' BF109 fuselage and the Jagpanther sitting in the IWM are not the same as the art stolen by Herman Goering or the Chinese artifacts stolen in the Opium Wars (while your at it, Google The Opium Wars, and you'll likely learn that it was a case of blatant aggression on the part of Britain and the West).

I agree wholeheartedly that the Chinese should get the hell out of Tibet, compensate the Tibetan people for what's happened to them, and return all cultural treasures taken since their invasion/occupation.

But to use it as an excuse to keep priceless items which are the Chinese peoples' cultural heritage only fuels the type of nationalism that leads them to continue to thumb their noses at the West and call us hypocrites.Hmm.. sorry to break the party but..

How do you proposed china to compensate the Tibetan people, who were once serf to Dalai Lamas and lords? Promote them to Slaves and give wrap them to Western supported exiles (off springs of slave owners, landlords and feudal monks) ? Or invite a biggest American military Base peering down on both India and China ? How perceptions can easily be portray be focusing on minor interest groups than the majority. Reality can be very different from what the Media is dishing out. There were many Tibetans in the Red Guards.

And what Tibetan cultural treasures were taken by China ? Skull cups, baby skin and human lamp shades ? They are still in Tibet.

You should go tibet and visit the "Snow Prison", built by the fifth Dalai Lama under the Potala Palace, and Langzixia Prison, not far from Johkang Monastery, were two of the most notorious places in Lhasa at that time. Unspeakable tortures were carried out at both places, including gouging out eyes, cutting off hands and feet, and peeling off skin. Are these monks ?

[Ordie]

If it were not for this "French Thief", the relics in question would've been destroyed by the Red Guards during the Cultural Revolution.

Why all of the sudden there's interest in Chinese Relics in the PRC when for the past 60 years have systematically destroyed much of Chinese History and Culture.

Tartar Walls destroyed in the 1950's
Priceless works and books destroyed during the Cultural Revoltion
Ancient sites now underwater with the Three Gorges Dam
Centuries old neighborhoods demolished in Beijing
At least Chiang Kai Shek was smart to move the National Palace Museum to Taipei.

[Sibirskiy Volk]

I couldn’t agree more with Ordie.

It is quite pointless for Chinese to argue with Frenchmen or in general Westerners for two innocuous statues when thousands of artistic and historical artifacts were ruthlessly destroyed during the ideological orgy of the Cultural Revolution. Without mentioning the irreparable damages to the classical Chinese culture caused by those Commie thugs.
I guess this is just another case of China blaming the Westerners for anything wrong in China: this may work in a Chinese forum but frankly look just preposterous here.

[LineDoggie]

China eagerly destroys their Heritage during the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution

Now whines when a Saved group of artifacts is being sold


Tango Sierra China, Sympathy is between ****e and Syphillis in the Dictionary.

[gaijinsamurai]

So, by your rationale, Japan was justified in invading and occupying China in the 1930's and 1940's, because China's human rights/civil liberties were less than ideal?

If the Tibetan people were indeed oppressed by their rulers (and I do indeed believe that many of them were, to some extent), it was their responsibility/right to change the conditions in their country, not Mao's and his successors.

[gaijinsamurai]

Also you guys are under the assumption that these would be returned to the "Chinese People"

More than likely these will go straight to the Absolute Party that runs the country and will serve to LINE THEIR Pockets and FUNCTION as State propaganda fomenting Han Nationalism.

Valid point......

[Walter Sobchak]

No, they cannot have Lucy Liu back!

No way...

[brandenvonbeneckendorff]

No, they cannot have Lucy Liu back!

No way...

Lol, keep lucy liu, she's not even hot, she'll never be as a big star as she is if she's not in america~

http://www.scifidesktop.org.uk/gallery/albums/actresses/G-M/Lucy-Li/Lucy_Liu_007.jpg

Ok， big face, large jaw, full of dots in her face, big mouth, ugly eyes... holy moses, i really dont get that western perception of asian beauty.... gross

http://pic4.sdnews.com.cn/NewsImg/2008/4/23/U105P28T3D1999988F329DT20080423112118.jpg

she's not even a biggest star in china, bt clearly without the prob of lucy liu.... LL can be a big star in china if she stars the chinese version of ugly betty.

plz US of A, keep LUCY LIU forever.

But out treasure worths way more that her.

Of course chinese should keep chinese treasure, art has RACE and ETHNICITY~

[SBL]

Yeah, Lucy Liu isn't that hot.

[BearInBunnySuit]

^^ I agree

[matthew.manhorn]

Yeah, Lucy Liu isn't that hot.

You must be Asian then :). However it seems that white men are the ones who are into those Lucy-Liu type Chinese chicks.

Lucy Liu won't make a career in China as she only looks appealing to westerners.

[brandenvonbeneckendorff]

You must be Asian then :). However it seems that white men are the ones who are into those Lucy-Liu type Chinese chicks.

Lucy Liu won't make a career in China as she only looks appealing to westerners.

not mentioning Bai Ling... resented by ordinary chinese people (google her name in chinese n you'll see how many -ve stories about her, and heaps of articles extremely critical of her) while a celeb (good or bad) in US.. lol

I'm not a fan of Lucy Liu, but no -ve feelings towards her, but Bai Ling, my lord~ my eyes hurt when seeing her

http://i3.sinaimg.cn/ent/s/p/2008-03-26/U2231P28T3D1962761F326DT20080326210816.jpg

A WITCH~
and western coutries should keep those "treasures" ie trash for us~

[Cipher]

Perhaps the PRC can pay the "owners" of such artifacts a handsome fee for protecting them from their own stupidity during the Cultural Revolution.
Yeah, they dragged the body of a Ming Dynasty emperor out from its tomb and burned it.

[Ordie]

Yeah, they dragged the body of a Ming Dynasty emperor out from its tomb and burned it.

It's the Mandate of Heaven for such events to occur.

[TheMiddlePath]

French Thiefs sympatizers and imperialists apologists are sure easy to draw out.

The Zodiac Heads are public property and BELONGS to the Chinese people. It should be returned to Beijing to be placed in a Public Museum, a public place for all the world to see.

And that includes all the world's Treasures STOLEN and Pillaged during the reign of "Might is Right. I have the Might so I have the RIGHT".

[LazerLordz]

French Thiefs sympatizers and imperialists apologists are sure easy to draw out.

The Zodiac Heads are public property and BELONGS to the Chinese people. It should be returned to Beijing to be placed in a Public Museum, a public place for all the world to see.

And that includes all the world's Treasures STOLEN and Pillaged during the reign of "Might is Right. I have the Might so I have the RIGHT".


Right..shouldn't you worry about Malaysian artifacts more than the PRC's?

[TheMiddlePath]

Right..shouldn't you worry about Malaysian artifacts more than the PRC's?


I think Malaysia is PART of the World.

[LazerLordz]

I think Malaysia is PART of the World.

Artifacts should be purchased by a public museum, not necessarily in China. Fact is, we Overseas Chinese in SEA, Taiwan, Australia and the US have preserved traditional Chinese culture and rituals far better than those capitalists in Beijing for the last 50 years.

I'm not about to trust them with something that they lack a track record of doing. The preservation and access of cultural artifacts is more important than some ego-stroking on the part of the government in Beijing.

[TheMiddlePath]

It's the Mandate of Heaven for such events to occur.

And the Mandate of Heaven punished all the top leaders responsible. And brought Deng Xiao Ping to power. And for the next 30 years, Heaven smiles again on the Middle Kingdom.

[Telmar]

French Thiefs sympatizers and imperialists apologists are sure easy to draw out.

The Zodiac Heads are public property and BELONGS to the Chinese people. It should be returned to Beijing to be placed in a Public Museum, a public place for all the world to see.

And that includes all the world's Treasures STOLEN and Pillaged during the reign of "Might is Right. I have the Might so I have the RIGHT".

I have not heard a "THANK YOU" for having preserved Chinese culture.

[Kilgor]

Why is Mao still smiling above Tiananmen square ?

[BloodyTalon]

Oh joy: I wanted to hear this story from the jingoist Chicom sheep perspective! woot! This is so worth another thread!

The heads are not, nor have they ever been, "public property". They were property of a long-deposed government system that were taken as the spoils of war.

[TheMiddlePath]

Why is Mao still smiling above Tiananmen square ?

Mao led a peasent rebellion against all the western backed warlords and receive the mandate of heaven when he united All Under Heaven.
That is why his picture will always hangs above the Gate of Heaven.

[TheMiddlePath]

Artifacts should be purchased by a public museum, not necessarily in China. Fact is, we Overseas Chinese in SEA, Taiwan, Australia and the US have preserved traditional Chinese culture and rituals far better than those capitalists in Beijing for the last 50 years.

I'm not about to trust them with something that they lack a track record of doing. The preservation and access of cultural artifacts is more important than some ego-stroking on the part of the government in Beijing.


So at least put them in a muesum if not in Beijing. That was also one of the request of the Chinese lawyers.

A China-linked group, APACE, had sought to block the sale of the bronzes. The group acknowledged that Saint Laurent acquired the bronzes legally, but said they should be returned to China or at least displayed in a museum.

[LazerLordz]

So at least put them in a muesum if not in Beijing. That was also one of the request of the Chinese lawyers.

A China-linked group, APACE, had sought to block the sale of the bronzes. The group acknowledged that Saint Laurent acquired the bronzes legally, but said they should be returned to China or at least displayed in a museum.

Since it's an auction, Museums' procurement depts should try and buy them, no?

[Atlantic Friend]

A China-linked group, APACE, had sought to block the sale of the bronzes. The group acknowledged that Saint Laurent acquired the bronzes legally, but said they should be returned to China or at least displayed in a museum.

So he bought the bronzes legally....and therefore it's okay to call him a thief ?

[Atlantic Friend]

French Thiefs sympatizers and imperialists apologists are sure easy to draw out.

The main issue here, the guy bought the bronze legally. Which seems enough for you to call him a thief, and to call anyone pointing out that a "French Thief sympathizer".


The Zodiac Heads are public property and BELONGS to the Chinese people. It should be returned to Beijing to be placed in a Public Museum, a public place for all the world to see.

How come they were sold then ?


And that includes all the world's Treasures STOLEN and Pillaged during the reign of "Might is Right. I have the Might so I have the RIGHT".

STOLEN. I take it in this particular case, it means "legally bought". Now if he bought it from someone who actually stole it, you'd have half a point, but if the purchase was legal, well...

[brandenvonbeneckendorff]

Oh, well, again, any chinese who want to defend their cultural heritage is a chicom~

Let me tell you something, when chinese were weeping for the bad things happened to us, you guys laughed and no one gave the slightest ****. Chinese sufferring = nothing for westerners.

And now, WE are totally going to be so cynic, that we will buy all the oil from Sudan without give the slightest damn to those whatever garbage being genocided, and support mugabe to use zimbabweans' money to buy real estate in Hong Kong to support Hong Kong business and let Kim Jong Il kill as many his ppl as possible if he stop trying to make a-bombs which causes trouble for all, and does not want to listen ppl bitching abt why palestinian kids being killed is unjust as they dont have oil and screw dalai lama to let him understand exactly who the masters are


because:

when chinese civilians being killed by the japs, no one on earth helped, no one stopped it, when chinese nationals were being killed, raped, burnt alive by indonesians, no one till now has been held accountable... list goes on, therefore **** humanity, and brotherhood between races, only common interest. and quote from a 19-century philosopher's motto (when translating works of western works on darwinism) who studied in UK which is to warn chinese people:

Species Compete and the Heaven Will Choose, Only the Fit Can Survive

物竞天择 使者生存
wu jing tian ze, shizhe shengcun
species compete heave chooses, fit-ones survive

(ie, those who dont, go to the ****ing hell, which chinese nearly got in from 19 to 20 century, now we will not, and those who dont, ****ing go to the hell, dont fit, too bad).

i don criticise mao? **** mao and his offspring, wish them all die for killing chinese and send jap soldiers back to japan and not execute all of them while keep them doing slavery work just to appease japanese, and how that son of a bitch destroyed many chinese ancient culture and those social elites!

[Mobydog]

So, by your rationale, Japan was justified in invading and occupying China in the 1930's and 1940's, because China's human rights/civil liberties were less than ideal?

If the Tibetan people were indeed oppressed by their rulers (and I do indeed believe that many of them were, to some extent), it was their responsibility/right to change the conditions in their country, not Mao's and his successors.Japan/China, Tibet/China have a really different political and history landscape.

You are missing the geopolititics of foreign meddling for interest that I'm trying portray.

[Ordie]

^^^^
Given the last 60 years, China has a poor track record in the recovery, and preservation of it's historical heritage and culture.

- Tartar Walls knocked down
- Cultural Revolution Red Guards burning of priceless books and destroying temples
- Three Gorges dam drowns historical sites
- Beijing Olympics demolition of centuries old neighborhood since the Yuan Dynasty.

Ironically, the savior of Chinese Culture happens to be the loser, Chiang Kai Shek, for moving the National Palace Museum in Taipei.

[LazerLordz]

Oh, well, again, any chinese who want to defend their cultural heritage is a chicom~

Let me tell you something, when chinese were weeping for the bad things happened to us, you guys laughed and no one gave the slightest ****. Chinese sufferring = nothing for westerners.

And now, WE are totally going to be so cynic, that we will buy all the oil from Sudan without give the slightest damn to those whatever garbage being genocided, and support mugabe to use zimbabweans' money to buy real estate in Hong Kong to support Hong Kong business and let Kim Jong Il kill as many his ppl as possible if he stop trying to make a-bombs which causes trouble for all, and does not want to listen ppl bitching abt why palestinian kids being killed is unjust as they dont have oil and screw dalai lama to let him understand exactly who the masters are


because:

when chinese civilians being killed by the japs, no one on earth helped, no one stopped it, when chinese nationals were being killed, raped, burnt alive by indonesians, no one till now has been held accountable... list goes on, therefore **** humanity, and brotherhood between races, only common interest. and quote from a 19-century philosopher's motto (when translating works of western works on darwinism) who studied in UK which is to warn chinese people:

Species Compete and the Heaven Will Choose, Only the Fit Can Survive

物竞天择 使者生存
wu jing tian ze, shizhe shengcun
species compete heave chooses, fit-ones survive

(ie, those who dont, go to the ****ing hell, which chinese nearly got in from 19 to 20 century, now we will not, and those who dont, ****ing go to the hell, dont fit, too bad).

i don criticise mao? **** mao and his offspring, wish them all die for killing chinese and send jap soldiers back to japan and not execute all of them while keep them doing slavery work just to appease japanese, and how that son of a bitch destroyed many chinese ancient culture and those social elites!

You do not speak for all the Chinese in the world. Defending Chinese cultural heritage does not solely entail returning ownership of historical artifacts to the PRC.

It is more of preserving access to such artifacts for as many people as possible to view them. This should be approached in a curatorial perspective, and not from a political point of view, which the PRC regime has been trying to do.

Let me tell you, if you want to find many well preserved artifacts of Chinese culture and history that predate the Qing or the early years of the ROC, you will have to look outside China. Go to Taiwan, visit Singapore, head to Malacca etc.

[Connaught Ranger]

Why don't the Red Chinese stop whinging and copy them, (bronze heads)

like everything else they copy and flog on Ebay as "originals" :roll:

[Zerazax]

Why don't the Red Chinese stop whinging and copy them, (bronze heads)

like everything else they copy and flog on Ebay as "originals" :roll:

Here we go again :roll:

The PRC did a horrible job with preserving their culture, but they have moved to protect their culture now. Fact of the matter is, while they fcked up in the past, if they're making legit efforts to preserve what they have (and they did restore parts of the Great Wall, Forbidden City, etc. recently) then I don't see why holding the past (in a MUCH different era in China then) against them is a valid argument anymore

[Ordie]

Fact of the matter is, while they fcked up in the past, if they're making legit efforts to preserve what they have (and they did restore parts of the Great Wall)

Added ski lifts and a tobanggan run.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0EwNOvtGq8

[LineDoggie]

Here we go again :roll:

The PRC did a horrible job with preserving their culture, but they have moved to protect their culture now. Fact of the matter is, while they fcked up in the past, if they're making legit efforts to preserve what they have (and they did restore parts of the Great Wall, Forbidden City, etc. recently) then I don't see why holding the past (in a MUCH different era in China then) against them is a valid argument anymore Yet they have no authority to block such a sale, these were never the property of the PRC to begin with

[Qianlong]

Maybe Mao and some hardcore communists wanted to destroy everything old china, that doesn't mean everyone in china agreed with them.

serious work has been done to preserve the forbidden city and just some months ago the prc built a special watertank to store a sunken old ship they recovered from the south china sea.

one of the articles quoted that in the past sunken chinese ships were salvaged by non chinese companies and all the stuff taken away because the prc didn't had the money or will to retrieve them themselves. now with a stronger economy -> stronger sense of cultural identity.

I'm still convinced the prc wouldn't have destroyed all the treasures saved/taken away by the KMT.

best would have been if the prc just bought the 2 statues, mean the money was going to charity anyway. win win situation.

didn't the usa bought back 1 of 5 surviving revolutionary (Don't thread on me) flags taken by the UK?

instead of going the way of lawyers, why not send a crack team of spies and retrieve the stuff. the cia has no problem abducting people and putting them on planes

does anyone know who bought the statues for 14 mill euro each??

[Chimera]

does anyone know who bought the statues for 14 mill euro each??

Apparently it's a Taiwanese businessman who loves historic relics.

[Connaught Ranger]

Talking of Chinese history, a few years ago there was a story going the rounds of the military medal collecting community of a Chinese millionaire based in Hong Kong, who was busy buying up any medals connected to the Boxer Rebellion uprising in the 1900's, that were awarded by the Japanese, Russian, United Kingdom, France, USA, Germany, Italy, Austro-Hungary military.

He then supposedly takes great pleasure in watching the medals be smelted down!!!:fork:

[brandenvonbeneckendorff]

the mugabe used zimbabweans hard earn money to buy real estate and his wife went shopping in hong kong, then those money are hong kong money, not zimbabweans, screw them for working so hard to let at least some business in hong kong to have such a generous customers. wish them come back again and do more shopping~ we wish those corrupted ppl to come to hong kong to spend cash, but not that frech faggot who 'ask' chinese piepurl to gieve freedom to tibetans, **** that ****~ china should execute anyone who protest violently, jus to demonstrate how much we will do exactly the opposite due to his 'request'. who the **** does he think he is

[Connaught Ranger]

the mugabe used zimbabweans hard earn money to buy real estate and his wife went shopping in hong kong, then those money are hong kong money, not zimbabweans, screw them for working so hard to let at least some business in hong kong to have such a generous customers. wish them come back again and do more shopping~ we wish those corrupted ppl to come to hong kong to spend cash, but not that frech faggot who 'ask' chinese piepurl to gieve freedom to tibetans, **** that ****~ china should execute anyone who protest violently, jus to demonstrate how much we will do exactly the opposite due to his 'request'. who the **** does he think he is

Could you repost the above in understandable English as opposed to gibberish English:cantbeli:

[Ordie]

the cia has no problem abducting people and putting them on planes

Non Sequitor

[LineDoggie]

the mugabe used zimbabweans hard earn money to buy real estate and his wife went shopping in hong kong, then those money are hong kong money, not zimbabweans, screw them for working so hard to let at least some business in hong kong to have such a generous customers. wish them come back again and do more shopping~ we wish those corrupted ppl to come to hong kong to spend cash, but not that frech faggot who 'ask' chinese piepurl to gieve freedom to tibetans, **** that ****~ china should execute anyone who protest violently, jus to demonstrate how much we will do exactly the opposite due to his 'request'. who the **** does he think he is

Namby Mambo down to the Banana patch?

Thats about as understandable as your Gibbering like a Ring Tailed Lemur.

and It's "French Faggot" use your Babelfish :roll:






Oh, Free Tibet......p-)

[matthew.manhorn]

Mao led a peasent rebellion against all the western backed warlords and receive the mandate of heaven when he united All Under Heaven.
That is why his picture will always hangs above the Gate of Heaven.

Sun Yat-Sen deserves to be on the Tian An Men square than Mao+Chiang, how he gave power to Yuan Shi Kai was worthy enough for him to be the true democracy of China. I respect / admire Mao as a leader / military tactician, but as a ruler / politician, Mao deserves to have his body dug and destroyed

[matthew.manhorn]

when chinese civilians being killed by the japs, no one on earth helped, no one stopped it

The US had been sending the "Flying Tigers" way before FDR declared war to Japan, although those pilots were mercenaries they still helped us to kill Jap pilots. which deserved respect from the Chinese


when chinese nationals were being killed, raped, burnt alive by indonesians, no one till now has been held accountable... list goes on,Indonesians can't find anything to blame for their miserable economy during the 90's therefore they diverted their hate towards Chinese merchants (just like how the Nazis did to German Jewish merchants). The racist actions by the Indonesians and their government are doing a better job at destroying Indonesia's reputation than any foreign criticisms. Let the Indonesians fvck themselves up in their own sh!thole. We Chinese can care less about Indonesia.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Kinda ironic when the chinese government whines about stealing.

How many $billions a year do chinese counterfeit goods cost western industry?

[delio]

Those artifacts should be returned to China, you know, where the flowers bloom (and in becoming obvious parish).

[TheMiddlePath]

You do not speak for all the Chinese in the world. Defending Chinese cultural heritage does not solely entail returning ownership of historical artifacts to the PRC.

It is more of preserving access to such artifacts for as many people as possible to view them. This should be approached in a curatorial perspective, and not from a political point of view, which the PRC regime has been trying to do.

Let me tell you, if you want to find many well preserved artifacts of Chinese culture and history that predate the Qing or the early years of the ROC, you will have to look outside China. Go to Taiwan, visit Singapore, head to Malacca etc.


Singapore has its own share of bulldozing all the pre war shophouses around Thief Street, Arab Street and Bugis Streets in the name of developemnt.
I still remember western tourist scarmbling all over the roubles picking up souvenirs while local people watched in amusment.

[TheMiddlePath]

Sun Yat-Sen deserves to be on the Tian An Men square than Mao+Chiang, how he gave power to Yuan Shi Kai was worthy enough for him to be the true democracy of China. I respect / admire Mao as a leader / military tactician, but as a ruler / politician, Mao deserves to have his body dug and destroyed

Nobody is perfect.

Mao united All China. Nobody could. Not Sun Yet Sen, not Yuan Shek Kai, nor Chiang Kai Shek. Apart from being a military genious, Mao created bare foot doctors, implemented land reform and distributed land to the poor, liberated the women and got rid of the fuedal system.

CKS is also not perfect but he did turned Taiwan into an economic power.

[Walter Sobchak]

Yeah, Lucy Liu isn't that hot.

Beauty, my chid'ren is in the eye of the beholder!

[gaijinsamurai]

Nobody is perfect.



Talk about an understatement. How many MILLIONS of Chinese people died because of Mao?

[gaijinsamurai]

Japan/China, Tibet/China have a really different political and history landscape.

You are missing the geopolititics of foreign meddling for interest that I'm trying portray.

Of course. Every country is different, to some degree. But you've tried to justify China's invasion, occupation, and annexation of Tibet, based on the fact that Tibet had problems with human rights.

So therefore, by your own rationale, Tojo was justified in allowing the Imperial Japanese Army into China.

What next? Will China be justified in invading India, because of the inequalities of the Caste system?

And your last sentence makes no sense. I realize English isn't your first language, but you fail to get your point across, even if it's a weak argument to begin with.

[welshmann]

Stupid argument. Perhaps you ought to look up "looting" and "captured" in a dictionary, and learn the difference.

Rudolf Hess' BF109 fuselage and the Jagpanther sitting in the IWM are not the same as the art stolen by Herman Goering or the Chinese artifacts stolen in the Opium Wars (while your at it, Google The Opium Wars, and you'll likely learn that it was a case of blatant aggression on the part of Britain and the West).

I agree wholeheartedly that the Chinese should get the hell out of Tibet, compensate the Tibetan people for what's happened to them, and return all cultural treasures taken since their invasion/occupation.

But to use it as an excuse to keep priceless items which are the Chinese peoples' cultural heritage only fuels the type of nationalism that leads them to continue to thumb their noses at the West and call us hypocrites.

Good point.some people are getting confused ,the main point is these are Chinese artifacts,,,yes some will say "what about the british history museum" and what they hold there that belong to other countrys..These other countrys would love thier stuff back,but they understand they cant look after them in the way they need to be,so they happy about them being looked after by the highley skilled people who work with these items,plus they can have them back to thier countrys to show..most museums around the world work very close with each other,and i say they are disgusted with what this fashion guy is doing......stick to making shirts,not ****ing around with historic objects he knows ****all about.

[Connaught Ranger]

Nobody is perfect.

Mao united All China. Nobody could. Not Sun Yet Sen, not Yuan Shek Kai, nor Chiang Kai Shek. Apart from being a military genious, Mao created bare foot doctors, implemented land reform* and distributed land to the poor, liberated the women and got rid of the fuedal system.



CKS is also not perfect but he did turned Taiwan into an economic power.


* And caused mass starvation which killed millions with his new agricultural policies, trying to grow rice and crops on land that's not suitable for agriculture was not a very bright idea, of course the starving people could always eat the dirt, bark from trees, and eventually themselves, trying to survive, thank you very much Mr. Dung:roll:

[Kilgor]

Talk about an understatement. How many MILLIONS of Chinese people died because of Mao?

Only the greatest famine in the history of human civilization. But thats why pencils have erasers, everyone makes mistakes :)

Lets also not forget the campaign against these imperialist warmonger thiefs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_sparrow_campaign

[filochard]

too late: the bronzes are sold. and well. I guess the chinese claim gave them some value. thank you.
If they wanted them back they should have brought some million $$$ instead of whinning.

[chino65]

Unfortunately, the "looters" are mostly European countries, and the "victims" mostly non-European countries.

So it must be difficult for one to make a unbiased opinion.

I guess countries that do hold relics can choose to - from time to time - return some pieces as diplomatic goodwill gestures etc.

But the likelihood is not high as it is a REALLY sensitive issue.

The circumstances in which some of these relics were taken are really embarrassing. It could have involved robbery, rape, arson, massacres etc. Usually it's not as if the relics were taken away politely. :oops:

So if "X" country decides to return a certain relic, do they also have to struggle with whether to explain or atone for the circumstances in which they took it?

...

But I have to add that the guy in the news saying China should exchange Tibet for 2 priceless (i.e. useless) objects has a sense of humour...rofl

[Mobydog]

Of course. Every country is different, to some degree. But you've tried to justify China's invasion, occupation, and annexation of Tibet, based on the fact that Tibet had problems with human rights.

So therefore, by your own rationale, Tojo was justified in allowing the Imperial Japanese Army into China.

What next? Will China be justified in invading India, because of the inequalities of the Caste system?

And your last sentence makes no sense. I realize English isn't your first language, but you fail to get your point across, even if it's a weak argument to begin with.That's when your opinion is that Tibet was ever independent. Between 1904 to 1930s, Tibet was in fact occupied by the British (If Tibet was independent, Why didn't the British absord Tibet then ?) , The 14th Dalai Lama was also appointed by the KMT...Check out the date. The KMT HQ was in Tibet during WWII and so was the supply thru Burma. Just watch the US propaganda video "Why We Fight". and come back to me on when Tibet was ever independent. Unless, you think the CCP are foriegn invaders who kicked out the KMT.

[Ordie]

It is my hope that the National Palace Museum is relocated to Beijing and the people of China to reconnect with its glorious past, value it, and save it for future generations. At this time and point, the reclaimation of the relics is used as a political issue based on playing the victim. While ignoring the thriving export market for Chinese national treasures.

[Fage]

By Keen Zhang and David Ferguson
February 26, 2009)
China.org.cn editors
Xinhua News Agency also contributes to this story
China has vigorously condemned Christie's, the auction house, and warned that the company will "suffer the consequences" after it auctioned two looted Chinese bronzes on Wednesday night for €31.4 million (US $40 million). An official statement was issued on Thursday by Chinese authorities, followed by a second policy circular intended as a preliminary sanction directed at Christie's.
http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20090226/001372a9ae270b10a2680a.jpg (http://www.china.org.cn/culture/2009-02/26/content_17340897_2.htm) Looted relics were sold at Christie's (http://www.china.org.cn/video/2009-02/26/content_17337514.htm)


http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20090226/001372a9ae270b10a10601.jpg (http://www.china.org.cn/culture/2009-02/26/content_17340897_2.htm)

The bronze sculpture of a rabbit's head, which is an ancient Chinese relic, is auctioned in the Grand Palace of Paris in Paris, France, Feb. 25, 2009.[Zhang Yuwei/Xinhua]



The first statement issued by China's State Administration of Cultural Heritage (SACH) condemned the sale and said it would have "a serious impact" on Christie's business in China. It added that Christie's would suffer consequences as a result of the auction, which had "damaged Chinese citizens' feelings and their cultural rights, and will have serious effects on the development of Christie's business in China."

The two bronze sculptures, representing the heads of a rabbit and a rat, were among 12 animal head sculptures that formed a zodiac-themed water clock decorating the Calm Sea Pavilion in the Old Summer Palace of Emperor Qianlong (1736-1795) in Beijing. The sculptures were looted when the palace was burned down by Anglo-French allied forces during the Second Opium War in 1860. To date, five of the 12 bronze animal heads have been returned to China, while the whereabouts of five others are unknown.
• Cast your vote: What do you think of the auction of two looted Chinese bronze sculptures at Christie's? (http://service2.china.org.cn/question/china_en/aoyu081103.php)

Christie's auctioned off the controversial relics on Wednesday night for €15.74 million each (US$20 million) to anonymous telephone bidders in a sale of the collection of the late Yves Saint Laurent and his partner Pierre Berge in the Grand Palace of Paris. After the first round of the sale, Berge, who decided to sell the pair's 50-year-long collection after the designer's death last June, told reporters that "Yves would have been very happy" over the very large sum of money that the bronzes had fetched.

A figure of "14 million euros" previously reported by a number of media is mistaken. The figure of "14 million" referred to British pounds not Euros, China.org.cn has verified.

According to Christie's, they received eight telephone enquiries before the sale. Once the auction was under way, all bidding took place over the telephone, with no bidder personally present for the auction. At a subsequent press conference Christie's refused to disclose the identity of the successful buyers.

The Association for the Protection of Chinese Art in Europe had filed a motion at the Tribunal de Grande Instance in Paris last Thursday, seeking an injunction to stop the auction. The court rejected the motion on Monday.


http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20090226/001372a9ae270b10a12502.jpg (http://www.china.org.cn/culture/2009-02/26/content_17340897_2.htm)

The bronze sculpture of a rabbit's head, which is an ancient Chinese relic, is auctioned in the Grand Palace of Paris in Paris, France, Feb. 25, 2009.[Zhang Yuwei/Xinhua]



Today, the China's heritage administration issued its first statement, saying that China refused to recognize what it called the "illegal possession" of the two sculptures and would "continue to seek the return of the sculptures by all means, in accord with related international conventions and Chinese laws."

According to the statement, SACH officials had made repeated efforts to halt the sale, including writing letters to Christie's officials. However, it said, Christie's had gone ahead with the auction in violation of international conventions and of a "common understanding" that such artifacts should be returned to their country of origin.

In the hours following the sale, SACH issued a second circular as a preliminary sanction against Christie's.

The circular states: "In recent years, Christie's has frequently sold items of cultural heritage looted or smuggled out of China, and all items involved were illegally removed from the country," though the individual items or transactions were not specified.

In response to the auction, SACH has ordered the Entry and Exit Administrative Departments for Cultural Heritage at all levels to "carefully check heritage items that Christie's seeks to import or export". The notice also covers agents and employees of Christie's.

Certificates of legal ownership must be provided for all items, the circular said. These documents must provide detailed information about the owners and the provenance (ownership history) of the items. Any items with inadequate or missing documentation will not be permitted to enter or leave the country.


http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20090226/001372a9ae270b10a24108.jpg
The Entry-Exit Offices concerned are separate from Customs Administration. The offices should immediately report to the SACH and local police and customs offices if they find relics held by Christie's that might have been looted or smuggled, said the circular.

Chinese lawyers pledged to continue their efforts to bring two bronze sculptures back home. "We are working with a Parisian law partner to see what we can do next," said Liu Yang, a lawyer representing the group of 80 Chinese lawyers. "The deal hasn't been finalized yet – The buyer has two days to complete the transaction by paying the sum involved. So we're going to wait and see what will happen."

Although Macao gaming tycoon Stanley Ho Hung-sun bought the original bronze horse head from the Calm Sea Pavilion collection and donated it to the motherland in 2007, the managers of the Old Summer Palace said today that they do not encourage Chinese people to adopt this approach.

While expressing their anger and disappointment in a statement, the Old Summer Palace administration said they did not want Chinese people to buy back cultural relics for motherland, as this served only to legitimize the behavior of the "thieves". "We don't want the patriotism of Chinese people to be exploited by unscrupulous auctioneers," the statement said.

Following the sale, Bernard Brizay, French historian and journalist and the author of 1860: the Looting of the Summer Palace, told Xinhua that he could understand Chinese feelings about the two relics. "The two bronzes should be returned to China, no matter who got the bids," he said. Brizay also poured scorn on the suggestion by Pierre Berge that the bronzes could be traded to China in exchange for "human rights".

Another Chinese sympathizer agreed. "What a stupid, arrogant, and patronizing idea," he said. "It suggests that if you don't agree with a country's politics you should be entitled to loot its artifacts and exploit them for political blackmail."

Source:http://www.china.org.cn/culture/2009-02/26/content_17340897.htm (http://www.china.org.cn/culture/2009-02/26/content_17340897.htm)

[LineDoggie]

Tough ****, China whines too much with hollow threats of Boycotts and Consequences that never have follow up.

Its a Paper Tiger with regards to these threats

Last year it was Sarkozy, and France would Pay- Sarkozy is still in power and France isnt diminished

Before that, the Dalai Lama

Before that, the Spratleys

Before that, Taiwan

[Fage]

Human rights absent in relic ransacking

Western media ascribe China's outcry against the auction in Paris of two Qing Dynasty animal heads to "nationalist sentiment", as if any other nation had a legitimate interest in these relics.



http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20090226/000cf1bdd03f0b10811e14.JPG (http://www.china.org.cn/international/2009-02/26/content_17339841_2.htm)

The bronze sculpture of a rabbit's head, which is an ancient Chinese relic, is auctioned in the Grand Palace of Paris in Paris, France, Feb. 25, 2009. Two controversial ancient Chinese relics including the bronze sculptures of a rat's head and a rabbit's head, were auctioned off on Wednesday night for 14 million euros each by anonymous telephone bidders in Christies's sale of the collection of Yves Saint Laurant and Pierre Berge in Paris. The sculptures were looted by invading Anglo-French expedition army in the 19th century, when the invaders burned down the royal garden of Yuanmingyuan in Beijing.[Zhang Yuwei/Xinhua]





Most support Mr Pierre Berge, who has asked Christie's to auction the two bronze heads, one of a rat and the other of a rabbit. The relics were among 12 animal fountainheads, representing the Chinese zodiac, which once graced the front of the Xiyanglou, or European-style mansion, at the Old Summer Palace in 19th century Beijing.

Mr Berge is apparently convinced of his legal right to the bronzes, even though he admits they were stolen from China 150 years ago. In asserting his right to auction off the stolen relics, he defends the interests of museums worldwide which hold "many other looted pieces".



http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20090226/000cf1bdd03f0b10817a17.jpg (http://www.china.org.cn/international/2009-02/26/content_17339841_2.htm)

The bronze sculpture of a rat's head, which is an ancient Chinese relic, is auctioned in the Grand Palace of Paris in Paris, France, Feb. 25, 2009. Two controversial ancient Chinese relics including the bronze sculptures of a rat's head and a rabbit's head, were auctioned off on Wednesday night for 14 million euros each by anonymous telephone bidders in Christies's sale of the collection of Yves Saint Laurant and Pierre Berge in Paris. The sculptures were looted by invading Anglo-French expedition army in the 19th century, when the invaders burned down the royal garden of Yuanmingyuan in Beijing.[Zhang Yuwei/Xinhua]





He even goes so far as to wrap himself in the mantle of "human rights", telling the French media that he is "ready to give these Chinese heads to China if they are ready to recognize human rights".

I don't see how Mr Berge qualifies as a human rights activist when he holds onto stolen relics of what Victor Hugo called "a wonder of the world".

For Mr Berge, "human rights" is a convenient phrase to bolster his image. But he is still relying on imperialist logic when he proposes to exchange the looted items.

His remarks only serve to remind us of the brutal Opium Wars that the British and French imperialists waged against China 150 years ago. Before they ransacked the Old Summer Palace and stole its treasures, the British and French marauders had already forced China to buy opium and robbed it of its autonomy. Ultimately, they subjugated all of China and shot anyone who resisted. There was no mention of "human rights" then.

Even those who witnessed the ransacking couldn't help but note that it was "a memorable day in the history of plunder and destruction".

James Bruce, the eighth Earl of Elgin and Kincardine, who ordered the plunder, later recalled: "Such a scene of desolation. There was not a room I saw in which half the things had not been taken away or broken in pieces ..."

I don't know if Mr. Berge has read Victor Hugo's "Sur les Expditions Franco-Britaniques en Chine", or his letter to Captain Butler on November 25, 1861. Translated into English, the letter was re-published in the November 1985 issue of the Unesco Courier.




http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20090226/000cf1bdd03f0b1081f91c.jpg

A photographer takes a picture of the Chinese bronze rat head and rabbit head sculptures displayed on the preview of the auction of Yves Saint Laurent and Pierre Berge's art collection at the Grand Palais in Paris, France, Feb. 21, 2009. [Zhang Yuwei/Xinhua]





Hugo was remarkably clear-eyed about the actions of what he calls two bandits, France and Britain. And he lamented the fact that "What was done to the Parthenon was done to the Summer Palace, more thoroughly and better ... All the treasures of all our cathedrals put together could not equal this formidable and splendid museum of the Orient."

The bronze heads being auctioned at Christie's are only two of some 17 million Chinese relics that are scattered overseas. Many were taken illegally, and I believe we Chinese have the right to fight for their return. If Mr Berge wants to talk about "human rights," let's talk about our right to our cultural heritage.

Meanwhile, I'm encouraged by the support of people like Mr Bernard Gomez, president of the Association for the Protection of Chinese Art in Europe, who is working to realize Victor Hugo's wish: "I hope that a day will come when France, delivered and cleansed, will return this booty to despoiled China."

(China Daily February 26, 2009)

Source:http://www.china.org.cn/international/2009-02/26/content_17339841.htm

[Ordie]

Much of the Chinese exported antiquities (illegal and otherwise) happen under the guise of corrupt local Communist Party Bosses and Hong Kong middlemen.

I think the world community at large will help if the information of missing items is known.

[Ordie]

Mods,

Can we merge the two threads on this issue?

Thanks

[gaijinsamurai]

That's when your opinion is that Tibet was ever independent. Between 1904 to 1930s, Tibet was in fact occupied by the British (If Tibet was independent, Why didn't the British absord Tibet then ?) , The 14th Dalai Lama was also appointed by the KMT...Check out the date. The KMT HQ was in Tibet during WWII and so was the supply thru Burma. Just watch the US propaganda video "Why We Fight". and come back to me on when Tibet was ever independent. Unless, you think the CCP are foriegn invaders who kicked out the KMT.

Again, a stupid argument on your part. Most of the non-European world has been for much of modern history, "non-independent". That doesn't invalidate their rights to self-determination.
What country was Tibet part of when Mao decided to invade and annex the country?

I'm not going to keep debating this issue with you, because this thread isn't about Tibet. If you want to respond with more bullsh!t PRC propaganda, then brag to your friends that you got the last word in, fine. Most of us here know that your claims are hollow...

[Connaught Ranger]

Do we really need three threads all related to the same issue??

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=152277

and the original thread:-

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=152322

[TheMiddlePath]

This is getting interesting.

http://i42.tinypic.com/14o2cfn.jpg

Jackie Chan comes out fighting for China's looted sculptures after YSL sale


Jackie Chan, the action film star, has thrown his weight behind Beijing’s efforts to shame France over the sale of two looted Chinese sculptures that were part of the Yves Saint Laurent collection.
The bronze rat and rabbit, removed when British and French forces sacked the Old Summer Palace in 1860, were sold for ¤14 million (£12.5 million) each to two anonymous bidders last night, despite Chinese objections.
Mr Chan said France had behaved disgracefully in allowing the sale. “They remain looted items, no matter whom they were sold to. Whoever took it out [of China] is himself a thief,” he said . “It was looting yesterday. It is still looting today.”



The Rush Hour star accused Western countries of stealing cultural relics from nations with ancient heritages such as China, Egypt and Cambodia, while insisting they were doing so only to preserve them. He said that he was planning to make a film about the return of some of China’s stolen national treasures, with filming scheduled to start next year.
China, mindful of President Sarkozy’s support of Tibet and the Dalai Lama at the Beijing Olympics, has been eager to highlight the issue. The bronzes were among 12 animal head sculptures that formed a zodiac-themed water clock in the palace of Emperor Qianlong. China has bought back 5 of the 12 but said yesterday that it did not plan to buy any more. “That would give the ‘stolen’ goods a coat of legitimacy,” the Old Summer Palace museum said.

[LineDoggie]

Still Aint getting them back china

so Sorry

[TheMiddlePath]

Namby Mambo down to the Banana patch?

Thats about as understandable as your Gibbering like a Ring Tailed Lemur.

and It's "French Faggot" use your Babelfish :roll:






Oh, Free Tibet......p-)


Oh No....It's Linedoggie again... whining about the Dalie Lama.

[LineDoggie]

Oh No, Like clockwork the PRC PAO arrives to whine......

[brandenvonbeneckendorff]

thos ppl who hate chinese ppl will never change, bt the thing is its no longer 19 century, they can no longer screw with us, just becoz they want to

DONT FCUK WITH CHINESE.

[brandenvonbeneckendorff]

besides, criticising us as colonists etc is just like criticising ur grand grand grand fathers, we were treated like junk, time for us to have some fun, u kno? One eye for one eye, ever heard abt that?

And the feeling of revenge is certainly sweet comparing with those retarded 'citizens of the world'.

[Mobydog]

Again, a stupid argument on your part. Most of the non-European world has been for much of modern history, "non-independent". That doesn't invalidate their rights to self-determination.
What country was Tibet part of when Mao decided to invade and annex the country?

I'm not going to keep debating this issue with you, because this thread isn't about Tibet. If you want to respond with more bullsh!t PRC propaganda, then brag to your friends that you got the last word in, fine. Most of us here know that your claims are hollow...Stupid ? Is that how you put your points across.. by personal attacks ? There you go again, simply saying that China invaded Tibet. Except for the British (for obvious imperial reasons), before 1949, which country doesn't recognised Tibet as part of China? Hint: When communist pushed out KMT.

BTW, I'm not Chinese. Further, which European willingly decolonised a "non-independent" state just next to them or managed them for centuries?

[TheMiddlePath]

Confucious says ..... Do not do to others what you do not like done to you.


http://i42.tinypic.com/eqsdft.jpg

[BloodyTalon]

Oh noes: the average Chinese netizen is no longer going to participate in Christie's auctions! However on earth will the auction house survive! :roll:

[3rdMillhouse]

I'd be afraid if the threats came from them russians.

[Henry's Fork]

Confucious says ..... Do not do to others what you do not like done to you.


http://i42.tinypic.com/eqsdft.jpg


rofl great pic!

I guess the PRC and its Chibots only say what ole Confucious said, because they sure have proven by their own actions, they dont follow what he says in practice.

rofl:-(

[Ordie]

The best thing that Chinese could ever do to demonstrate thier case for the relics, is to take a day off and visit thier local museums, historical sites and attend and support local artists and crafts persons.

Better yet, celebrities such as Jackie Chan and millionares should take the lead in being patrons of the arts and purchase and donate items to the people of China.

[LineDoggie]

Confucious says ..... Do not do to others what you do not like done to you.


http://i42.tinypic.com/eqsdft.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/China.jpg

Homer Simpson say, Paper Tiger always Fold like 2 dollah suit

[plato]

Christie's auctioned off the controversial relics on Wednesday night for €15.74 million each (US$20 million) to anonymous telephone bidders in a sale of the collection of the late Yves Saint Laurent and his partner Pierre Berge in the Grand Palace of Paris.

What if it was a Chinese guy who won the bid? haha, that would be more fun..

[Ordie]

What if it was a Chinese guy who won the bid? haha, that would be more fun..

I agree...I hope it can be used as an example for others to do the same in China.

[IraGlacialis]

I agree...I hope it can be used as an example for others to do the same in China.
You already have businessmen from Hong Hong and Macau shelling out $300K+ for truffles. It seems surprising that they don't seem to be taking one for the team.

[kote]

If you want something to be done, do it(buy it) yourself.:roll::roll::roll::roll:

[plato]

I agree...I hope it can be used as an example for others to do the same in China.
this is getting more fun:


Chinese bidder "won't pay" for looted China bronzes
BEIJING (*******) - Two looted bronze sculptures claimed by China and once
owned by Yves Saint Laurent were "bought" at a Paris auction by a Chinese
bidder who said on Monday he would not pay any money.

The two sculptures, representing the head of a rat and the head of a rabbit,
were bought for 15,745,000 euros ($20 million) each by a telephone bidder
during the auction of the late designer's art collection last week.

But the man who said he made the bid, an adviser to a Chinese fund for
looted artworks, said no money would change hands for relics stolen from
Beijing's torched Summer Palace in 1860 by French and British forces.

"What I want to stress is that this money cannot be paid," the adviser, Cai
Mingchao, told a news conference.

(Reporting by Ben Blanchard and Ian Ransom; Editing by Nick Macfie)
http://www.*******.com/article/artsNews/idUSTRE5210FM20090302

[muttbutt]

this is getting more fun:
Well then he doesn't get them....unless they have stupidly already shipped them....:roll:

[Ordie]

They are dragging the issue. When things get bad in China economically, expect more nationalist drama to divert people's attention from thier daily woes.

[Fage]

2009-03-02 19:05

BEIJING -- China said here Monday that Christie's auction of the two looted Chinese relics last week was a lesson to the whole world, including the French people.

China had tried to dissuade Christie's from auctioning the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911) bronze rabbit and rat heads sculptures, which were looted from Yuanmingyuan, the Old Summer Palace, by Anglo-French allied forces during the Second Opium War in 1860.

After China's repeated efforts ended in futile, the Association for the Protection of Chinese Art in Europe filed a motion at the Tribunal de Grande Instance in Paris, seeking an injunction to stop the auction. But the motion was rejected by the court on February 23.

The rejection had caused strong reaction in China and people started to question the value of the French culture, Zhao Qizheng, spokesman of the second session of the 11th National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC).

"We have always admired the French culture. What happened this time? Does French culture get sick? What kind of value is behind this?" Zhao quoted online comments as saying.

But Zhao also said he believed that the value of French culture is not carried by a handful of people, but by the whole French nation.
He went on quoting several French writers including Victor Hugo, whose works truthfully recorded the history.

"In the eyes of history, one of the two outlaws will be called France, the other will be called England. I hope there will come a day when France, liberated and cleaned up, will send back this booty to a plundered China," Zhao quoted Hugo as saying.

He also quoted Bernard Brizay, author of "1860: the Looting of the Old Summer Palace", as saying that for the French, the looting of Yuanmingyuan would be the same as if the Prussians in 1870 had razed Versailles down to the ground, looted the Louvre (museum) and set fire to the national library, as Yuanmingyuan was all of those at once.

Zhao said former French President Jacques Chirac read Brizay's book and expressed his appreciation to the author, who as a French, clearly recorded that part of history.

The two relics were auctioned last week for 14 million euros ($17.92 million) each to anonymous telephone bidders in Christie's sale of the collection of Yves Saint Laurent (YSL) and Pierre Berge in the Grand Palace of Paris.

After the sale, China's cultural heritage authorities ordered strict checks of all exports and imports by Christie's in China.

On Monday, a Chinese antique collector named Cai Mingchao identified himself as the person behind the winning bids for the two relics. But he said at a press conference that he will not pay for the bid.

Cai, a collection advisor of the National Treasures Fund in China, said he believed that "any Chinese person would stand up at this time" and he was making an effort to fulfil his own responsibilities.

So far, five of the 12 bronze animal fountain heads in Yuanmingyuan have been returned, while the whereabouts of five others are unknown.

Source:http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-03/02/content_7527472.htm

[TORA]

Fage, got your 5 yuans..? STOP to spread chicom bulsh!ts..?

Instead that ONLY post always crap of part...say your opinion regarding the topic.

BTW...those corrupted commie...I wonder what France for example should return to Italy?! :cantbeli: But won't happen...who care..!

Now they begin to cover all their dramatic issues (human rights, care for enviorment and go on...) with this crap.
In a time like this, of economical crisis they continue to pressure the U.S. for "improve military ties"... LOL they are patient, may be smart but not enought to **** US.

Instead that think about this bulsh!ts begin to care you PEOPLE and your enviorment that is just a nightmare that is eating your country.

And I worked also with Chinese guys abroad and I must say some of them were really nice person!

BUT not this crap..

[muttbutt]

"We have always admired the French culture. What happened this time? Does French culture get sick? What kind of value is behind this?" Zhao quoted online comments as saying.


"In the eyes of history, one of the two outlaws will be called France, the other will be called England. I hope there will come a day when France, liberated and cleaned up, will send back this booty to a plundered China," Zhao quoted Hugo as saying.
Ah all the subtle political nuance (thats a French word BTW) of a bull in a particularly doddery old China (ironic) shop, thats the way, they don't do what you want, legal means don't work, insult them.......yes the French are well known to react well to that particular form of discourse.


oh and nicely palyed bringing the Brits in, China must be the only Country that'll get those 2 together on something....p-)

[xav]

oh and nicely palyed bringing the Brits in, China must be the only Country that'll get those 2 together on something....p-)

nice! rofl

[TheMiddlePath]

Yves Saint Laurent Auction Sabotage


http://www.forbes.com/2009/03/02/christies-auction-sabotage-lifestyle... (http://www.forbes.com/2009/03/02/christies-auction-sabotage-lifestyle-collecting_chinese_sculptures.html)

Yes! Way to go China. Gan Bei.......

Teach the arrogant Pierre Bergé a lesson.
"The Chinese are saying, 'Screw you and your laws, we're going to do
whatever we damn well please," says Lally. But Pierre Bergé, the
longtime partner of Saint Laurent, is essentially saying the same
thing back to the Chinese: that he'll keep the heads if Cai doesn't
pay up. Some observers think Bergé bated the Chinese when he made an
earlier statement, in response to the court challenge, that he would
be willing to return the artworks to China when the Chinese gave
freedom and human rights to Tibet.




China would have paid Pierre Berge a small fortune for the heads and he would indeed have reach out to the Chinese people if he did that. He is already rich enough. I guess he was greedy and want more and was arrogant asking China to Free Tibet.
Now everyday when he return home and sees the 2 worthless heads it will remind him what a fool he was.

I rejoice with this news.

[Smiling_Wolf]

*Sigh* Politics aside, I feel Chinese people have a legitimate right to ask for those items back; they're part of the country's heritage after all, and they were still wrongfully taken. China has a lot of problems, and it's trying hard to piece itself together properly from generations of turmoil. And I admit that though it hasn't always gone about doing that in the right way, it doesn't seem fair that the people can't even ask without getting smeared, just for being under their current government.

[SBL]

*Sigh* Politics aside, I feel Chinese people have a legitimate right to ask for those items back; they're part of the country's heritage after all, and they were still wrongfully taken. China has a lot of problems, and it's trying hard to piece itself together properly from generations of turmoil. And I admit that though it hasn't always gone about doing that in the right way, it doesn't seem fair that the people can't even ask without getting smeared, just for being under their current government.
The Chinese were awfully quick to paint St. Laurent, and the French in general, as 'thieves'.

[LineDoggie]

Yves Saint Laurent Auction Sabotage


http://www.forbes.com/2009/03/02/christies-auction-sabotage-lifestyle... (http://www.forbes.com/2009/03/02/christies-auction-sabotage-lifestyle-collecting_chinese_sculptures.html)

Yes! Way to go China. Gan Bei.......

Teach the arrogant Pierre Bergé a lesson.
"The Chinese are saying, 'Screw you and your laws, we're going to do
whatever we damn well please," says Lally. But Pierre Bergé, the
longtime partner of Saint Laurent, is essentially saying the same
thing back to the Chinese: that he'll keep the heads if Cai doesn't
pay up. Some observers think Bergé bated the Chinese when he made an
earlier statement, in response to the court challenge, that he would
be willing to return the artworks to China when the Chinese gave
freedom and human rights to Tibet.




China would have paid Pierre Berge a small fortune for the heads and he would indeed have reach out to the Chinese people if he did that. He is already rich enough. I guess he was greedy and want more and was arrogant asking China to Free Tibet.
Now everyday when he return home and sees the 2 worthless heads it will remind him what a fool he was.

I rejoice with this news.

So China is proving they cannot be trusted to act in accordance with laws

That it cannot be trusted to give rights to Tibetan Peoples oppressed by China

That its Businessmen should not be treated as Honorable in international dealings


Bravo, China has shown it is dishonorable-

That it steals technology from other countries

That it will sell Poisoned Food to Children around the World

That it will sell Poisoned Toys to Children around the World

That it will sell Human Organs to the highest bidder

That it will jail Elderly Mothers for asking what happened to their Children at Tianamen square

That it doesnt care whom it backstabs in it's actions

And you cheer on their every lapse of Human behavior

[LaoSexMachine]

Auction house owner Cai Mingchao said Monday he put in telephone bids for the bronze rat and rabbit heads — part of a collection owned by the late French designer Yves Saint Laurent — during last week's auction in Paris. The three-day sale set a record for the most valuable private collection sold at auction, bringing more than $484 million.

"What I need to stress is that this money cannot be paid," Cai told a news conference in Beijing. "At the time, I was thinking that any Chinese would do this if they could ... I only did what I was obliged to."
Pierre Berge, Saint Laurent's longtime partner, told France-Info radio that he was not altogether surprised by the maneuver since he believes "the Chinese would have done anything to try to get back the pieces."
Berge said he would keep the bronzes if Cai doesn't pay up.
An official with Christie's in Paris on Monday confirmed the bronzes were still in the auction house's possession but would not give details. The official was not authorized to be publicly named, according to company policy.


http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=6986704

[Smiling_Wolf]

The Chinese were awfully quick to paint St. Laurent, and the French in general, as 'thieves'.

The subject is bringing up a lot of old feelings. The comment is petty and sad, I know, but practically every country that was colonized by the west has some 'beef', and China is no exception. Being Chinese myself, I can't blame them.

It's clear that China is still trying to stand tall from the void that history left them in, so we're all going to feel its growing pains. I don't place any blame for what put them there either, whether it was by its own people or without.

[Ordie]

The subject is bringing up a lot of old feelings. The comment is petty and sad, I know, but practically every country that was colonized by the west has some 'beef', and China is no exception. Being Chinese myself, I can't blame them.

It's clear that China is still trying to stand tall from the void that history left them in, so we're all going to feel its growing pains. I don't place any blame for what put them there either, whether it was by its own people or without.

They why do the Chinese behave like helpless victims of history when they have already plenty to be proud about on thier own merits.

[Smiling_Wolf]

They why do the Chinese behave like helpless victims of history when they have already plenty to be proud about on thier own merits.

I guess there's just too many painful reminders of those sad periods (this case is one of them), and that they have (maybe somewhat unfounded) anxieties that they will happen again; especially these days where the world has been so eager to call out its mistakes - maybe they're afraid that they'll compound into another "intervention" by the west? So, they try hard to save face, and try just as hard to prove that China can be a functional, autonomous nation state again.

I'd like to elaborate on this more, but it's late here and I'm sleepy. :-(

[LazerLordz]

I get the feeling that the more China refuses to let go of its past (yes, it may be a victim of history), the less confident she will be.

The notion of face has hobbled ruling classes in China for millennia. It needs to be shelved aside for more pertinent goals and attitudes.

The constant harping on the past for whatever tactical benefits and playing the victim card when she is definitely a major power today, is not going to bring any more supporters to her side..

[badguy2000]

So China is proving they cannot be trusted to act in accordance with laws

That it cannot be trusted to give rights to Tibetan Peoples oppressed by China

That its Businessmen should not be treated as Honorable in international dealings


Bravo, China has shown it is dishonorable-

That it steals technology from other countries

That it will sell Poisoned Food to Children around the World

That it will sell Poisoned Toys to Children around the World

That it will sell Human Organs to the highest bidder

That it will jail Elderly Mothers for asking what happened to their Children at Tianamen square

That it doesnt care whom it backstabs in it's actions

And you cheer on their every lapse of Human behavior
excuse me, was it in accordance with laws for Frenchmen robbed those Chinese hertages in 1860s?

[Connaught Ranger]

excuse me, was it in accordance with laws for Frenchmen robbed those Chinese hertages in 1860s?

You ever hear of something called the "Statue of Limitations":roll:

It means the alleged crime must be investigated and pursued within a set period of time to have any validity in a court of law.

But, as its China, they probably rewrite the law daily, to suit themselves:roll:

Anyway the people who allegedly took the items, probably had a receipt for their tourist souvenirs. rofl

[muttbutt]

excuse me, was it in accordance with laws for Frenchmen robbed those Chinese hertages in 1860s?
Back then? yes, welcome to 140 years later though, how many French art works are sitting in the UK and vis versa, or German, or Russian, Greek......it's called history, learn to live with it, or become enslaved to it.p-)

[badguy2000]

You ever hear of something called the "Statue of Limitations":roll:

It means the alleged crime must be investigated and pursued within a set period of time to have any validity in a court of law.

But, as its China, they probably rewrite the law daily, to suit themselves:roll:

Anyway the people who allegedly took the items, probably had a receipt for their tourist souvenirs. rofl
don't cheat yourself. in the human histroy, laws often was rewritten just to suit powers.
for example, the independence of Kosovo is "legal and uique" while the independence South Ossetia is "illegal and unacceptable"

the problem is not "rewriting laws to suit china",but " is china powerful enough to make lay suit her".

[badguy2000]

Back then? yes, welcome to 140 years later though, how many French art works are sitting in the UK and vis versa, or German, or Russian, Greek......it's called history, learn to live with it, or become enslaved to it.p-)
there should be always a start. how about start it in France?

[TORA]

there should be always a start. how about start it in France?

There are more serious issues in this very moment around the world

Those corrupted commie rise crap like this or improve military cooperation with Washington only for try to show a different view...

France should return tons of arts, relics to Italy BUT who damn care..important is that are keep safe, aren't we all brothers in this world, proletarians of the world all unite? Or this just show the rising of bullcrap nationalism in chicomstan?

[Connaught Ranger]

don't cheat yourself. in the human histroy, laws often was rewritten just to suit powers.
for example, the independence of Kosovo is "legal and uique" while the independence South Ossetia is "illegal and unacceptable"

the problem is not "rewriting laws to suit china",but " is china powerful enough to make lay suit her".

Kosovo and South Ossetia has no bearing on the case.:roll:

Who is getting laid here???

The soldiers of the various regimes in Chinese history looted all before them along with the compulsory rape, pillage, and murder that went on down through history. It was not just reserved for foreign armies who visited China.

World history is the same all over, standard practice after a battle was won or a town occupied was looting, in the 1800 this was condoned, to a period of 24 hour, after a town was taken, after that the soldiers could and were punished for such acts, looting was looked upon as a legitimate reward for the soldier putting his life on the line.

For Chicom-China to start shouting "thief, thief" now is a laugh!

[muttbutt]

there should be always a start. how about start it in France?
Start in France all you want (I'm not French) or the UK ect ect.....but then they have not raised this issue with each other, it's accepted it happened, just look at the Bayeux tapestryp-)

[muttbutt]

Kosovo and South Ossetia has no bearing on the case.:roll:

Who is getting laid here???

The soldiers of the various regimes in Chinese history looted all before them along with the compulsory rape, pillage, and murder that went on down through history. It was not just reserved for foreign armies who visited China.

World history is the same all over, standard practice after a battle was won or a town occupied was looting, in the 1800 this was condoned, to a period of 24 hour, after a town was taken, after that the soldiers could and were punished for such acts, looting was looked upon as a legitimate reward for the soldier putting his life on the line.

For Chicom-China to start shouting "thief, thief" now is a laugh!Spot on, we may look back now and say they were naughty, but it was standard practice for everyone, not just Europeans playing at away games.

[Delay]

so wait from what I'm reading is if my nextdoor neighbor is beating up his wife and i go over there to stop him. Its ok to steal some of his stuff because hes a bad guy? Sorry for over simplifying it but that's what it sounds like to me.

[muttbutt]

so wait from what I'm reading is if my nextdoor neighbor is beating up his wife and i go over there to stop him. Its ok to steal some of his stuff because hes a bad guy? Sorry for over simplifying it but that's what it sounds like to me.
Back in the Day you could kill the guy, rape his wife and steal everything.....back in the Day.......notice past tense.

If we start going back over past "crimes" where does it end, I'm sure someone could make a case that your sitting on some guy's land in Canada that was "stolen"...you going to give it back without fair recompense?


None of the people who have these Chinese artifacts were the ones who took them, nor even relations, they bought them fairly and kept them safe, you don't want to pay for the item, don't, pay for the safe keeping and keeping them in good condition then.

[SBL]

I guess there's just too many painful reminders of those sad periods (this case is one of them), and that they have (maybe somewhat unfounded) anxieties that they will happen again; especially these days where the world has been so eager to call out its mistakes - maybe they're afraid that they'll compound into another "intervention" by the west? So, they try hard to save face, and try just as hard to prove that China can be a functional, autonomous nation state again.

I'm sure they suffer daily because of it.:roll:

[Delay]

Back in the Day you could kill the guy, rape his wife and steal everything.....back in the Day.......notice past tense.

If we start going back over past "crimes" where does it end, I'm sure someone could make a case that your sitting on some guy's land in Canada that was "stolen"...you going to give it back without fair recompense?


None of the people who have these Chinese artifacts were the ones who took them, nor even relations, they bought them fairly and kept them safe, you don't want to pay for the item, don't, pay for the safe keeping and keeping them in good condition then.

"The Indian chiefs who signed it received the magnificent sum of 10 shillings in total for their co-operation in signing over 392 square miles of land."

They signed, they got ripped off, cant claim sh!t. 10 shilings for toronto. NOt STOLEN.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_of_stolen_goods
In the U.S. and most other countries, if the individual knew the goods were stolen then it is usually prosecuted as a misdemeanor or felony, depending on value of stolen goods. If an individual knows about themselves having possession of stolen goods from another state, then, according to numerous federal laws, it is prosecuted as a federal crime. If the individual didn't know the goods were stolen, then the goods are returned to the owner and the individual is not prosecuted. Though there are often exceptions, because it is not easy to prove or disprove simple knowledge.

every country has laws about possession of stolen goods. There is no compensation. Do you know why there are laws such as these? Because stealing is not ok.

In criminal law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_law), theft (also known as stealing or filching) is the illegal taking of another person's property (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property) without that person's freely-given consent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent). As a term, it is used as shorthand for all major crimes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime) against property, encompassing offences such as burglary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burglary), embezzlement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embezzlement), larceny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larceny), looting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looting), robbery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbery), mugging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mugging_%28robbery%29), trespassing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespassing), shoplifting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoplifting), intrusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intruder), fraud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud) (theft by deception) and sometimes criminal conversion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_conversion).

[muttbutt]

"The Indian chiefs who signed it received the magnificent sum of 10 shillings in total for their co-operation in signing over 392 square miles of land."

They signed, they got ripped off, cant claim sh!t. 10 shilings for toronto. NOt STOLEN.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_of_stolen_goods
In the U.S. and most other countries, if the individual knew the goods were stolen then it is usually prosecuted as a misdemeanor or felony, depending on value of stolen goods. If an individual knows about themselves having possession of stolen goods from another state, then, according to numerous federal laws, it is prosecuted as a federal crime. If the individual didn't know the goods were stolen, then the goods are returned to the owner and the individual is not prosecuted. Though there are often exceptions, because it is not easy to prove or disprove simple knowledge.

every country has laws about possession of stolen goods. There is no compensation. Do you know why there are laws such as these? Because stealing is not ok.

In criminal law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_law), theft (also known as stealing or filching) is the illegal taking of another person's property (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property) without that person's freely-given consent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent). As a term, it is used as shorthand for all major crimes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime) against property, encompassing offences such as burglary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burglary), embezzlement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embezzlement), larceny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larceny), looting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looting), robbery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbery), mugging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mugging_%28robbery%29), trespassing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespassing), shoplifting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoplifting), intrusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intruder), fraud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud) (theft by deception) and sometimes criminal conversion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_conversion).Thats nice, but unfortunatley as was pointed out, the SOL ran out a while back on these items so technically they are no longer "stolen", p-)

[muttbutt]

"The Indian chiefs who signed it received the magnificent sum of 10 shillings in total for their co-operation in signing over 392 square miles of land."

They signed, they got ripped off, cant claim sh!t. 10 shilings for toronto. NOt STOLEN.Sweet, so they got shafted, hoodwinked fanaggled, screwed over, all lovely legal ways of stealing property.....you sleep soundly on your legally purchased land, and the guy who has the heads will sleep soundly in possesion of them....since he bought them fairly and dare I say it, squarly.....

[Delay]

Sweet, so they got shafted, hoodwinked fanaggled, screwed over, all lovely legal ways of stealing property.....you sleep soundly on your legally purchased land, and the guy who has the heads will sleep soundly in possesion of them....since he bought them fairly and dare I say it, squarly.....

http://www.indianclaims.ca/

find me any claims to toronto

[muttbutt]

http://www.indianclaims.ca/

find me any claims to toronto
You having trouble with me agreeing with you?....I said legal, underhanded, unscrupulous, but legal, just like the man who is currently in possesion of those lovely heads......they were gained through underhanded means, passed through many hands, 140 years later, the guy has rightful ownership, as a French court said, you see, the law is fantasic isn't it?p-)

[Delay]

Thats nice, but unfortunatley as was pointed out, the SOL ran out a while back on these items so technically they are no longer "stolen", p-)

lol SOL. So it is ok to steal as long as you can wait till the SOL runs out right. Right

[muttbutt]

lol SOL. So it is ok to steal as long as you can wait till the SOL runs out right. Right
As long as you get away with it, yes?......if you mean morally, then no, but we were talking law, not morality were we not?

[Delay]

What im trying to get at is stealing is stealing. Doesn't really matter what a judge in France says. That judge is not the judge of morality. let me quote again. theft (also known as stealing or filching) is the illegal taking of another person's property (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property) without that person's freely-given consent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent). You can justify it anyways you want. But stealing will always be stealing.

[muttbutt]

What im trying to get at is stealing is stealing. Doesn't really matter what a judge in France says. That judge is not the judge of morality. let me quote again. theft (also known as stealing or filching) is the illegal taking of another person's property (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property) without that person's freely-given consent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent). You can justify it anyways you want. But stealing will always be stealing.
Yes, and if you had caught the guy 140 years ago who stole them, he would have probably been handled inan unpleasent manner, but they didn't nor the man he sold them too ect ect, eventually even stolen objects are considered washed, it's one of the reason SOL exists, other wise people would be claiming all sorts of things.


and actually the French judges ruling counts for more then the complaints of the Chinese Government, since 1, the objects are in France and 2, he and not the PRC has legal authority....I know in China the Government can make up the rules as it goes, to suit itself, it does not work that way here....now you and I are done....have a great Day:)

[Delay]

yes, and if you had caught the guy 140 years ago who stole them, he would have probably been handled inan unpleasent manner, but they didn't nor the man he sold them too ect ect, eventually even stolen objects are considered washed, it's one of the reason sol exists, other wise people would be claiming all sorts of things.


And actually the french judges ruling counts for more then the complaints of the chinese government, since 1, the objects are in france and 2, he and not the prc has legal authority....i know in china the government can make up the rules as it goes, to suit itself, it does not work that way here....now you and i are done....have a great day:)

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[Chimera]

What im trying to get at is stealing is stealing. Doesn't really matter what a judge in France says. That judge is not the judge of morality. let me quote again. theft (also known as stealing or filching) is the illegal taking of another person's property (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property) without that person's freely-given consent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent). You can justify it anyways you want. But stealing will always be stealing.

blablablablablablbalblablablablbablablablablablablablablbalbalballa.

You see, my response was as relevent as yours.

The guy got is legally under our jurisdiction system. No need to argue.

[Eye]

"The Indian chiefs who signed it received the magnificent sum of 10 shillings in total for their co-operation in signing over 392 square miles of land."

They signed, they got ripped off, cant claim sh!t. 10 shilings for toronto. NOt STOLEN.


Did Indians have land register or any other documents confirming their rights to that land? I don't think so.

[Connaught Ranger]

What im trying to get at is stealing is stealing. Doesn't really matter what a judge in France says. That judge is not the judge of morality. let me quote again. theft (also known as stealing or filching) is the illegal taking of another person's property (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property) without that person's freely-given consent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent). You can justify it anyways you want. But stealing will always be stealing.

Your point is valid, so can we take it that China will hand over all the money for items, ideas, they have ripped off, copied, stole since Mao came to power?

In the case of the "Chinese heads" is there any living relative of the original owner alive to claim them?

Where to begin to pin the blame:roll:

[TheMiddlePath]

Ghandi glasses 'owner' asks India to negotiate
Translation: Ghandi glasses 'owner' holds India to ransom.

James Otis, a documentary maker and peace activist based in California, told AFP he had rejected an initial approach by the Indian consulate in New York late Monday.

"They made an offer I can't disclose, because I don't want to embarrass them: it's that low," he said by telephone from Los Angeles.

Otis said he would even give away the memorabilia if India's government did "something positive for the Indian people.
"Nothing would make me happier if the Indian government made a generous offer to help its poor. I would donate these items immediately," he said.

"They've not come back with anything like that other than a very low financial offer. So in that case I'd rather they just come along to the auction."


http://i41.tinypic.com/2i1jkw1.jpg

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090303/wl_asia_afp/indiaushistoryauctiongandhi;_ylt=Ar1sjcUujHa.456J8Lo0PX8Bxg8F (http://webmail.west.cox.net/do/redirect?url=http%253A%252F%252Fnews.yahoo.com%252Fs%252Fafp%252F20090303%252Fwl_asia_afp%252Findiaushistoryauctiongandhi%253B_ylt%253DAr1sjcUujHa.456J8Lo0PX8Bxg8F)

[Connaught Ranger]

Ghandi glasses 'owner' asks India to negotiate
Translation: Ghandi glasses 'owner' holds India to ransom.

James Otis, a documentary maker and peace activist based in California, told AFP he had rejected an initial approach by the Indian consulate in New York late Monday.

"They made an offer I can't disclose, because I don't want to embarrass them: it's that low," he said by telephone from Los Angeles.

Otis said he would even give away the memorabilia if India's government did "something positive for the Indian people.

"Nothing would make me happier if the Indian government made a generous offer to help its poor. I would donate these items immediately," he said.

"They've not come back with anything like that other than a very low financial offer. So in that case I'd rather they just come along to the auction."


http://i41.tinypic.com/2i1jkw1.jpg



He should embarrass them by disclosing the offer they made, then the people of India and the world would know how much the political leaders of India value their past great leader.

Connaught Ranger:)