Griping Could Mean Charges for Soldiers

[Seraphim]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=2&u=/ap/20030718/ap_on_re_us/iraq_grumbling_soldiers

IMHO I think this is a good idea.


WASHINGTON - The Army is considering whether to punish soldiers in Iraq (news - web sites) who griped about conditions there to a television reporter, a Pentagon (news - web sites) spokeswoman said Friday.


Some soldiers from the 3rd Infantry Division complained to ABC-TV this week after their units were told they would be leaving Iraq soon, then had their homecoming postponed. One called for the resignation of Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld.


Criticism of superior officers is a breach of military rules. The Army will determine whether any soldier will be charged with breaking those rules, said Pentagon spokeswoman Chief Petty Officer Diane Perry.


On Wednesday, the commander of U.S. forces in Iraq said the soldiers' comments show the frustration of troops who are ready to go home.


"Every now and then we've got to look at our young people and understand why they said what they said, and then do something about it," said Gen. John Abizaid, head of U.S. Central Command.


He said it was up to the soldiers' direct commanders to decide if they should be punished.


"None of us that wear this uniform are free to say anything disparaging about the secretary of defense, or the president of the United States," he added

[Splinter26]

Donald Rumsfeld should be the one punished for lieing to the troops about them going home and not keeping his promise. They just got mad cuz media showed how fuked up they treating our boys there in Iraq.

[digitalghost]

Yea I mean whats so difficult in doing a quick rotation of troops with the "fresh" new troops every 6 months or so?

[Beowulf]

yeah that whole secretary of defense thing is so easy, I bet's it's nowhere near as tough as beating Civilization II on Emperor level...right guys....
-b

[martinexsquaddie]

Quickest way to piss off troops promise them one thing then do another Guess there won't be that many willing to sign on again :D

[FoodForThought]

Last time I checked these men and woman vounteered for the armed forces. What did they expect? Gulf War 1, Yeah right. We are at war. Deployments for WW2 were in the average of 1-3 years. Deployments for Vietnam were 1 year minunum. These infrantryman have been gone for 9 months!!! I understand they miss their families, but they fail to realize that this country is at war. Your in the Army you have no say. Period. Deal with it.

[GazB]

Yes, the worlds public is lied to, why shouldn't soldiers be lied to too... it is only fair. :P

[Trident-za]

yeah that whole secretary of defense thing is so easy, I bet's it's nowhere near as tough as beating Civilization II on Emperor level...right guys....
-b

Good point :)

I find it absolutely amazing, though, that the US military is considering punishing their soldiers for letting the world know the truth about the conditions. Is telling the truth a crime in the modern US military? Good grief! Criticism of superior officers.... lol... yeah, I just bet they don't like being criticized. That madman Mugabe also made it a law in his country that you can't criticize him.

[Jooglae]

Guerilla attacks, local population that hates you, fanatic Muslim clerics, unstable political situation, terrible heat, homesickness, MREs........Just too much for an ordinary foot soldier to hump.

[Uncle Chô]

Guerilla attacks, local population that hates you, fanatic Muslim clerics, unstable political situation, terrible heat, homesickness, MREs........Just too much for an ordinary foot soldier to hump.

rofl rofl LOL...

Aren't they are supposed to be the BEST soldiers in the world within the BEST Army in the Universe ?? That's what I have been reading on this Forum every day since Sept 2002 !

Now that things are not going as originally planned, everyone seems to feel sorry for them. Yes, these are harsh conditions but they better have had thought twice before joining the military. What did they expect ? A comfortable life within 1/4 hour drive from home ? Being in the Army is not just taking martial pose in the nearest training ground in front of a M 1 for a few "I am a hero" photos. This is not airsoft game or Charlie Sheen "Navy Seals". This is friendship, mates stories, pride to serve your country, exciting moments but it also means pain, blood, fear, tears and death.

Overseas military actions does not always means free-fire, backup artillery, B-52s carpet-bombing, give me a fresh Bud and I will be back home within a month with the world's applause... Sometimes, things go wrong (see BHD).

Think of the UN troops deployed in Bosnia between 1992 and 1995. They were exactely in the same operational situation, with a BIG difference : they were not allowed to launch offensive actions (at least until 1994) to defend themselves. Did you hear them complaining ?

Do not misunderstand my post : I am not making fun of what's going on in Baghdad because we are talking about 19 years old kids losing their lives.

But I think some guys on this forum should wake up a little bit...

[GLax]

maybe a silly question, but does anyone think that because these troops are trying to do a job they arent really trained for, could be the root of their frustration? cuz lets face it, these are combat troops, not street cops. i saw on World News Tonite that theyre considering calling up national guard units because the Army and Marines are stretched so thin. this may help the problem but not solve it...

[Beowulf]

listen a year deployment that sucks, but hey I know a Reserve unit that got activation orders saying one year minimum not to exceed to years.

Those were their orders I saw them. 1-2 years, for a reservist! You're talking lawyers losing their practice, guys making half as much money than normal etc etc etc.

So do I think 3rd ID has the right to complain hell yeah, i'm sure it sucks over there, but they don't need to complain to the press. That's why there's a chain of comand, and if nothing is being done then oh well, suck it up and drive on.

I got married two weeks before I was away for a whole year, so I'm not just running my mouth I know it sucks, but I don't think they need to be talking to the press, it's unprofessional.

Oh, and that melodramatic Rumsfeld should resign crap that's just retarded....do pushups...
All Best,
beowulf

[FallenAngel]

I can see both sides on this issue.

On one hand, you have the soldiers who did their job. They liberated an oppressed country. They were told they were going home to their families and then told that, no, they weren't. Do that three times. Its going to start undermining your trust in the "chain of command" all the way up to the top.

Then, on the other side, you have the generals. They would probably rotate units in and out but thanks to our last president and his f*cking budget cuts, there's not too many options of people to send. I read somewhere else here something like 80%-85% of our military is already deployed overseas. Right now you have the 3rd Inf. Div, the 4th Inf. Div., the 1st Armor Div, and soon the 1st Cav. Div. in Iraq. plus some Marine units. They are literally running out of people to send there to replace the guys who have been there for a while.

Thats why reservists are getting these 2-3 year deployments. I know a Marine reservist (23rd Inf.) who was deployed for 9 months to the Gulf. He got back last month. THREE DAYS LATER he gets a call telling him to report back in. At this moment he's sitting down in Pendelton waiting to be deployed to Gitmo for God knows how long.

Its a shame, but given the size of our military, our boys have to do a hell of a lot and thats looking like longer and longer deployments.

Just think what will happen if we start sending peacekeepers to Liberia. Soon we'll be sending Boy Scouts off to fight.

[Splinter26]

Uncle Cho you have no clue what you are talking about, these soldiers are lied to, that's their problem. Now go watch your BHD.

[duck]

There would be a simple alternative, turn the reconstruction and "occupation" ( for the lack of a better word ) of Iraq over to the UN and there would be tens of thousands of peacekeepers from all over the world to help american troops. But this would be a bitter pill to swallow for the Bush administration heading towards elections and so I doubt they will accept sharing power in Iraq. After all, it would disrupt the plans of messieurs Bolton & Perle & Rumsfeld to turn the Middle East into a free trade zone centered on Israel. That is the same reason why regime change in Damascus and Teheran will come, either through domestic upheaval or american military intervention. The stakes are high and the experienced players in the Pentagon are not going to go home just yet.

Prediction: Before the end of the year there will be an agreement on sending french, german and russian troops to Iraq. With the security situation deploring in Afghanistan simultanoueusly, there are not many alternatives.

[Seiyuuki]

If there was tens of thousands of UN peacekeeper in Iraq...how would the dissidents feel toward that, would they treat the peacekeepers any differently than they treat the current coalition forces?

duck, you're prediction has a good chance of being right, but somehow I doubt it will be troops from France, Germany, or Russia...after, there are other countries out there...hey, there's the Syrian, would the dissidents accept Syrian peacekeepers, could they accept Muslim Arabs peacekeepers?

[budanski]

Were these complaints from the same ones who didnt expect to be actually in combat and just looking for college tuition. Btw, how long were GIs deployed during WW2, Korea, and Vietnam?

[Nawlins]

I see that some of you suggested shorter 6 month rotations. That's a great idea, 6 months is alot more bearable than a year. But I have a question... Do they have enough personnel to rotate that often?

I'm guessing the answer is no (judging from what FallenAngel said and from what I know), and that their deployments were extended because there weren't really any other options.

Being gone a year sucks, but if there's no one to replace you, there's just no one to replace you and there's not much anyone can do about it.

[Nawlins]

But is that a blessing the UN is willing to give?

I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking.

[Nawlins]

Well, it's no excuse but they are still human... they're still gonna f*** it all up from time to time. I guess the world expects more out of its leaders though.

[budanski]

Their complaints are understandable. However it is a violation of military regulation to publically critcize a superior officer. Soldiers are required (at least publicly) to refrain from critisicizing any of their superiors. There are orders involving who is authorized to make media statements and under what circumstances. Finally, there is the principle that the military cannot make political comments on decisions made by their civilains masters.

In a conscript army, there should be more tolerance for citizens to exercise freedom of speech. There is no reason to do so for professionals who have agreed to live under military discipline.

[Seiyuuki]

The Presidency is more complex than you or me can pretend to comprehend, so I don't believe that statement to be completely accurate. The organizational structure of the Bush's administration is coherent to the pyramid structure, organizing a president's staff in which most presidential assistants report through a hierarchy to the president's chief of staff. The disadvantage of this structure is that, unlike the ad hoc and circular structure of staffs' organization, there is a greater chance the information receive by the President will be inaccurate because...as the old saying goes (I think)..."too many hands been in the pot."

Tenet was given a copy of the State of the Union Address, but he said he did not read/review it. The President, using the information at his disposal, everything from the CIA to NSA to I'm sure MI6 and so forth, made the reasoning for war...Now, if he knew before hand that information was false, but go ahead with its presentation, then he have to be completely accountable for misleading the people. Though Bush went ahead because he believe the information provided for him was accurate and he had great faith in the ability of CIA and Tenet.

So, who's to blame? Perhaps Tenet, should he or should he have not review the copy of the State of the Union Address and confided in the President any doubt he had about the information...Bush, should he or should he have not double check with Tenet and the CIA or have his own advisers, people, etc. do some background check? The point is, someone has to be accountable for this, and it was Tenet...and like you, I admire him for that, but to assume Bush's character is any less is not completely accurate.

As for the troops, I have the utmost respect for them, but war isn't an exact science so you can't exactly schedule troops rotation. Though I can only imagine what they face everyday, the next guy on the street with a smile on his face might be packing a bullet for him and it's hot and it's definitely not home.

Oh...another thing, if they do began rotating troops, anyone here with prior experience or adept knowledge can explain how that can be carry out? I understand that in Vietnam, one of the problem they face with troops rotation is that while they send home the experience soldiers who serve out their tour of duty, the newbies were not all stuck with someone with experience to show them the rope.

[warchild1/27scout]

everybody should stop WINING. if your a bush hater,keep on hating. you are hurting our soldiers morale. i know the old,"we're against the war not the troops.bull****.pc bull****. if you are a bush and u.s. supporter don't start getting shaky on us now. hold the line. we done the right thing and the desenters are on the wrong side of history. the hard road is quite often the right road. we could easily have let saddam get to the place of north korea and deal with a rogue nation with wmd's and let the middle east burn up in islamic fury and at some time fight ww3 against saddam and al quaida. the road in iraq will be hard. no one lied and said we would be building steer stakehouses now in bagdad. the end is already decided. we will be successful.

[Splinter26]

Nawlins, me personally, I don't expect more from these leaders, I just expect better leaders. I've been dwelling on this for a week or so now, but have kept it to myself because I don't know enough about the man to really say this. But well, from what I know of him, George Tenet sounds like my kind of President. Granted, I don't know enough to make that statement sincerely, but he's more likeable from my standpoint than most others in politics and all that. I'll say this for him, though...Tenet took responsibility for everyone under his command, like a good leader should. Bush doesn't do that. In a command position, such as the US President, everything that happens under one's command is that person's responsibility. Tenet is loyal, and dutiful. Bush isn't. No offense to the Presidency as a position, or to the Bush fans out there, or to Bush himself. Just some thoughts...

I agree with you 100% on that one Tane, Bush seems like a guy who rather blame others for his mistakes rather than accept consequences, I think it is the President's responsiblity to make sure that what is coming out of his mouth is true and accurate. World leaders debating name of the fries lol so childish, who gives a flying if it's French or Freedom Fries, they still taste the same p-) And warchild, being a US supporter and Bush supporter is a whole different thing dude.

[Seiyuuki]

Every soldiers have the right to gripe.



Revolutionary War - George Washington labored to turn rebels into soldiers; despite lashings, they deserted often. In 1781 almost 2,000 men mutinied and took over Princeton, N.J., for several weeks.

Civil War - Several enlisted men were prosecuted for lambasting President Lincoln's handling of the war. ONe soldier had written his family that if Lincoln won re-election, "the country is lost."

World War II - The war was popular, but there was 40,000 deserters. In 1945 a U.S. general estimated 13,000 troops were AWOL in Paris, many running black-market goods to the front lines.

Vietnam War - Troops saw the quagmire before their leaders did. IN 1965 a lieutenant was court-martialed for marching in a protest with a sign calling President Johnson a "fascist aggressor."

[FallenAngel]

ah, but here's the kicker

THE GRIPING IS WORKING!!! :D

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20030722/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_us_military

Seems DoD wants to rotate units in and out of Iraq on one-year rotations, but it will be a one-for-one rotations.

So far, they are planning on sending in a Stryker brigade (trial by fire anyone?), elements of the 82nd Airborne, 1st Cav Div. and 1st Inf. Div.