Why California is "dying"

[sinophile]

My personal opinion is this article's observations apply to the US Federal spending problem 1:1.

From http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2009/02/should_we_let_california_go_ba.html


...expect the Golden State to be in desperate need of a bailout soon, one that will certainly gain a receptive ear in the White House because Washington can’t conceive of our largest state defaulting on its debt, even though the prospect has now sunk California’s bond rating lower even than Louisiana’s.

[StukaJr]

California just passed the deficit price tag caused by 200 plus thousand state employees onto its tens of millions of taxpayers - every cent of the Federal Bailout money will go to budget 14 billion worth of proposed pet projects and not to refund the taxpayers for the tax hike in a recession.

SoCal radio station is organizing mini-Tea Party revolt by having people mail used tea bags to Governor's office and recall groups are springing up... It will be a poetic justice if Arnold gets recalled for being worse than the governor he himself spent so much time belittling and ridiculing. Over a million Californians left the state in the past decade and the ones staying are pissed as hell - have no doubt about it.

[Siddar]

California just passed the deficit price tag caused by 200 plus thousand state employees onto its tens of millions of taxpayers - every cent of the Federal Bailout money will go to budget 14 billion worth of proposed pet projects and not to refund the taxpayers for the tax hike in a recession.

SoCal radio station is organizing mini-Tea Party revolt by having people mail used tea bags to Governor's office and recall groups are springing up... It will be a poetic justice if Arnold gets recalled for being worse than the governor he himself spent so much time belittling and ridiculing. Over a million Californians left the state in the past decade and the ones staying are pissed as hell - have no doubt about it.

Arnold is just ineffective and unable to force through changes needed. I dont really blame him for problems. Majority blame for this lies with asembly and public employee unions that have hijacked the states goverment for there own purposes. The courts blocking Arnolds attempt to layoff employees last year didnt help matters eather.

Voters who have allowwed this to happen should also take there share of the blame as well. maybe if we have another recall that recalls the entire asembly and senate along with Arnold then just maybe well get people willing to adress the problems.

Any attempt to replace govenor with out sweeping the rest of state goverment away as well is just going to produce more of the same old same old.

[Walter Sobchak]

Another problem in California, especially San Diego, is that city governments made sweetheart deals with public employee unions that included very generous retirement packages that are now eating up city budgets.

Face it, Communism failed in Russia, in China and even in Albania. I guess California and North Korea are next.

Man, and that place was so cool in the 60s...

[Abolith]

California just passed the deficit price tag caused by 200 plus thousand state employees onto its tens of millions of taxpayers - every cent of the Federal Bailout money will go to budget 14 billion worth of proposed pet projects and not to refund the taxpayers for the tax hike in a recession.

SoCal radio station is organizing mini-Tea Party revolt by having people mail used tea bags to Governor's office and recall groups are springing up... It will be a poetic justice if Arnold gets recalled for being worse than the governor he himself spent so much time belittling and ridiculing. Over a million Californians left the state in the past decade and the ones staying are pissed as hell - have no doubt about it.

couldn't agree more.. I am already making my plans to leave as well.. it'll take about a year to get it all in place...but once I leave I'm not coming back. My family made the right choice 10 years ago ... I should have listened then.

[Ordie]

The problem is not that we give policymakers the freedom to fail, but we do not give them the freedom to suceeed.

For example:

The initiative process (propositions) circumvents the authority of the legislature and the governor to develop and implement public policy.
The initiative process is no longer a grassroots effort, but hijacked by lobbists, special interests and businesses who uses media to manipulate the vote.
Through the initiative process, voters now places term limits on policymakers to the point that 1/4 of the legislature are rookies with no long term institutional policymaking history or budget making experience.
Through the initiative process, voters requires 2/3rd majority to pass a budget while other states requires simple majorities.
I place the blame on stupid California voters and special interests for passing initiatives (including 400 amendments to the constitution) on the premise of seeking simple solutions to complex problems.

[Walter Sobchak]

The problem is not that we give policymakers the freedom to fail, but we do not give them the freedom to suceeed.

For example:

The initiative process (propositions) circumvents the authority of the legislature and the governor to develop and implement public policy.
The initiative process is no longer a grassroots effort, but hijacked by lobbists, special interests and businesses who uses media to manipulate the vote.
Through the initiative process, voters now places term limits on policymakers to the point that 1/4 of the legislature are rookies with no long term institutional policy making history or budget making experience.
Through the initiative process, voters requires 2/3rd majority to pass a budget while other states requires simple majorities.

I place the blame on stupid California voters and special interests for passing initiatives (including 400 amendments to the constitution) on the premise of seeking simple solutions to complex problems.

You forgot the Federal Judges who overturn the initiatives the Left doesn't like...

[Ordie]

You forgot the Federal Judges who overturn the initiatives the Left doesn't like...

Your right, why waste the courts time.

For a state of 30 million, I'm in favor for a Republic, not a populist democracy.

No term limits (let the voters decide to hire and fire)
2/3rd majority to pass all initiatives
Simple majority to pass legislation
Two year budget cycles

[Walter Sobchak]

Your right, why waste the courts time.

For a state of 30 million, I'm in favor for a Republic, not a populist democracy.

No term limits (let the voters decide to hire and fire)
2/3rd majority to pass all initiatives
Simple majority to pass legislation
Two year budget cycles



Watch it, or they will recall Ahhhh-nawld and hire you!

Just keep repeating, "If nominated I will not accept... if elected I will not serve!"

[wildcat]

Man, and that place was so cool in the 60s...

That is when California started down this road with the 60's hippies, we are just ripping what they sowed.

[Ordie]

That is when California started down this road with the 60's hippies, we are just ripping what they sowed.

That was Gov Pat Brown era...things ran right.
California started to go down hill since Proposition 13 passed.

[wildcat]

That was Gov Pat Brown era...things ran right.
California started to go down hill since Proposition 13 passed.
nothing to do with the Gov back then, but with the flower power generation that came thought 60's with their liberal ideals, slowly taking it over, and today is what you have. just saying, I put the blame on them.

[USMCRTop]

As a native Californian, I think that we have gotten into "vote for what we want" mode- that is, if everyone votes for it, the laws of ecomnomics can be changed- also, I sue , you sue , we sue- there is a tremendous need for tort reform

[Siddar]

As a native Californian, I think that we have gotten into "vote for what we want" mode- that is, if everyone votes for it, the laws of ecomnomics can be changed- also, I sue , you sue , we sue- there is a tremendous need for tort reform

The Democracy over reality mentality of far to many Californians is at the heart of problems facing the state. The idea that just voting for something will magicly make the funds appear to fund said projects with out any downside seems to be ingrained deeply into the states voters.

[AlfredoTP]

I think more that democracy, as we know it today, was good...back then! In the 50s, 60s, 70, and early 80s, that system worked just fine. But the problem is that society has changed A LOT in the past 15 years, more than in the previous 40 to 50 years! And that was just too much and too fast for our 'democracy' which we never adjusted to any change at all! And now here it comes!!! California, as well as the rest of the US, EU, etc. are all suffering of a lack of ... common sense/real democracy/[insert idea here] ... :-(

[vryhpyammoadded]

Cali was pushing the limits of the having your cake and eating it too citizens-government nod and wink economics. I’m not surprised in the least that a little bubble bursting moment would end that party. I absolutely love it when the culturally reckless get a chance to learn.

I just hope the Cali government won’t be allowed to scum one penny from those who work for a living but know that by hook or crook, they’ll manage to stick their grubby paws on others peoples money via the Federal crack daddy.

Don’t grow to rely on some impersonal bureaucracy taking others people’s money to make your life easier. It’s like having fun binge drinking yourself into alcohol poisoning on someone else booze then getting your drunken ass beat near to death by the owner when he catches you.

[Hispeed1]

Umm, how about booting the Cali assault weapon bull and legalize scary-looking guns so the state can make some money from it? (wishful thinking)

[Brasi]

Well California has a flippen lot of people behind bars and a crime rate that is out of this world, and yet they are the state with the tightest gun controls. Hmmm, go figure...

The wife and I went to San Francisco a couple of months ago for a two day conference. We stayed down town at a nice hotel, but holy hell was there a lot of vagrants around. You couldn't walk 20 feet without one begging you for some change. The second day I walked 4 blocks down and back to the hotel just to see how many would storm up to me begging for money and it was 8! I'm think San Francisco must be the only town where no one walks around with loose change in their pockets.

We'll never go back again.

[el borracho]

I don't know a lot about the recent political and economic situations in California, but I have to say they've had this coming for a long time. The economy and infrastructure hasn't been able to support their population, thereby causing the cost of living to explode. Back around 2000 or 2001 there was a big flap about their power problems. They were experiencing more and more blackouts so plants in the Pacific Northwest had to provide them with an emergency supply. But that caused problems since their main task was to provide power locally. The increased demand sent rates through the roof all along the west coast. I'm not sure how that was solved, like most news headlines it just went away after awhile. It brings up the question for failing states, should others be forced to provide assistance to them to keep their economy stable?

[el borracho]

About a year ago I started a thread after reading info about various state and regional secessionist movements in the US. For most of them, their main tenet was that they felt they shouldn't have to contribute to keep other states afloat. It's kinda scary to think they may get more credibility if the economy worsens.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Is it just me, or are rich bankers and California awfully similar? They've both suddenly realized that their systems were unsustainable, they're both going to the Feds asking for money, and they're both terrified of having to live like the rest of us.

[StukaJr]

There is a big discrepancy in the way private sector and state employees live.

State employee gets 14 paid holidays a calendar year (they recently lost two, but they were replaced with "personal days") - private sector gets half as many, with luck (Do you get Ceasar Chavez day off?). State employee gets guaranteed retirement pension and benefits - private sector sinks or swims for itself with their 401k's. If a State worker retires, they can get another job (it can be identical to what they were doing) for the State and draw salary and retirement pension - private sector "say what?". 200,000 odd State workers have pretty much nationalised healthcare - apparently, it's a burden on the rest of the 30 million that get squat. State workers get overtime pay while salary exempt jobs are routine in the private sector. California pays almost double to incarcerate its criminals, partly due to Sacramento giving and giving to Correctional Officer Unions (and about every other Union) - California jail guards are the best paid in the Nation. Teacher Unions have negotiated best pay in the Nation for teachers regardless of their performance and the latter delivered some of the worst educational levels in the Nation - so we pay double for private schools. State of California has been hiring on the average of 40 plus employees per day since Shwarznegger took over - if State of California was a business, it would be hemorrhaging millions a day and continuously hiring new staff. Instead, it's a State - so it gets to bilk tax payers out of more money. The supposed cuts that the new budget saved at costs of billions to tax payers, were not currently held jobs but job opennings - so State can continue hiring.

California enjoys flow of its citizens out of the State (about a million in the last 10 years) - mostly small business owners as we have some of the worst business tax. Big native California companies like Intel are openning new offices in more business friendly states - a lot of city infrastructures are funded by big companies, so with these companies gone - all of SoCal cities will look like uniform crap.

[Ordie]

California has not lost it Mo-Jo.

There's a lot going for it..weather...location...population...innovation...and demand for goods and services.

The problem: California is a "nation-state" with a government suited for Vermont.

The populist simpleton short term policies through the initiative process has been dragging the state since 1978 when Proposition 13 passed.

We need a stronger leadership within the Legislature and Governor Office to make sound long term polices. People are quick to dismiss politics, but playing politics is how we sort human issues in our daily lives and the community at large.

What do Californians expect when they take away the Authority of the Legislature to govern effectively with term limits, kicking out Governors for making unpopular but necessary decisions on energy distribution and taking away the authority from Judges with 3-strikes laws and mandatory sentencing for drug offenders that fills prisons subsidizing $20,000 per prisoners annually.

To get back in track a constitutional convention (reorganization) is needed.

[Ordie]

There is a big discrepancy in the way private sector and state employees live.

Within the private sector there's even a bigger discrepency between the lazy rich and working poor.

Oddly enough, public sector jobs in California represents the last refuge for the middle class.

[Ordie]

About a year ago I started a thread after reading info about various state and regional secessionist movements in the US. For most of them, their main tenet was that they felt they shouldn't have to contribute to keep other states afloat. It's kinda scary to think they may get more credibility if the economy worsens.

Retrocession to be more exact.

I had a conversation with a local suburban Mayor. Governor Terminator has raided his local municipal coffers to fill the budget gap so much, that he's considering issuing a resolution divorcing his city from the state and seek Federal territorial status.

[sinophile]

If you look at Monster.com today for Sacramento, you'll see there are 1,670 open positions in a city of 407,018 people.

By contrast Austin, TX has twice as many available positions per capita.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pJvf-C2qp59YB4HQUGHbzCg

[StukaJr]

Within the private sector there's even a bigger discrepency between the lazy rich and working poor.

Oddly enough, public sector jobs in California represents the last refuge for the middle class.

Obviously, since the Unions mandate the same pay regardless of performance and makes firing the lazy almost impossible - Public Sector lives in Socialist Utopia that would certainly not survive in the Private Sector... Working poor did not become such, until the State started taking more and more out of their pay to fund some special projects while giving back less and less. Sure, Public Sector might be creating some nice jobs but 200K jobs is a drop in the bucket for the taxation levels that inflicts. California takes about half of what Federal takes and now takes more - bad roads, worst schools and continued slide into deficit - just to keep 200 thousand or so Californians in "Middle Class Refuge"

Technology Sector jobs are better for California and at least they are paying from profits, not borrowing or raising taxes - now these jobs are leaving to other States and so are the profits. Middle Class jobs are not drying up because only Public sector can offer them, but because businesses are getting taxed to death and pass restriction after restriction. Best part of Middle Class (as being your own boss) is slowly going extinct in this State.

[Ordie]

Stuka,

I think you would think differently about public employees if you were ever get in an accident and had police, firefighters, and paramedics come to your rescue.

I highly doubt Silicon Valley and the Web 2.0 jockeys can fullfill that role without stock options and playing fussball in the conference room.

Many of the public jobs being offered are backfill from the baby Boomers who are retiring in large numbers. More specifically in the areas of public safety.

[StukaJr]

Stuka,

I think you would think differently about public employees if you were ever get in an accident and had police, firefighters, and paramedics come to your rescue.

I highly doubt Silicon Valley and the Web 2.0 jockeys can fullfill that role without stock options and playing fussball in the conference room.

Many of the public jobs being offered are backfill from the baby Boomers who are retiring in large numbers. More specifically in the areas of public safety.

Not every Public Employee is a policeman or a firefighter and Paramedics are employed by private companies (you get ambulance ride - you pay the tab). Traditionally, public service jobs are funded by Private Sector, so I wouldn't laugh off tech geeks as completely useless - they pretty much funded California's revenues and allowed for equal bubble in State employee growth at the time of the DotCom bubble (The only difference is that Tech bubble burst and the State bubble has not and dragged CA into 40 billion dollar deficit). The bubble money should have gone into a piggie bank, but instead it inflated the government to currently unsustainable proportions. Major City works have been funded by Movie Studios and Tech giants - there is a reason why Culver City never spends a dime to maintain its streets (cough cough Sony cough). There is a certain misconception that everything you see that's nice is the result of Public Works - well, it's not. Private sector has the "benefit" of paying for services and then doing more than half of it themselves.

California has been hiring on average of 48 new employees per day and that's with State sliding deeper and deeper in the red - no matter how you spin it, the California state employment has doubled since the Gumbie days. State employment includes some really strange entitlements - for example, LAUSD employs 200 or so people in 60-150K annual range that do not work in actual schools and are not teachers... Finest example is a large animal caretaker - probably for the LAUSD stables or Petting Zoo p-)

But if California only employed people that directly came to my aide - they'd have 100K employees tops and everyone would be happy. It's the other 100K jobs that I scratch my head about. Californians enjoy some of the heaviest (and getting heavier) tax burden and Government is growing at disproportionate to population growth rate! It's not profitable to run business in California and without business - there will be no cops, fire fighters or retirements for Baby Boomers!

[Ordie]

Californians enjoy some of the heaviest (and getting heavier) tax burden and Government is growing at disproportionate to population growth rate!

Wasn't Proposition 13 supposed to ease the tax burden?

[StukaJr]

I don't know - I was 2 years old and not living in the United States when prop 13 passed p-) What happened in Cali is that Democrats and Republicans seemingly have reached a backroom deal to push the 2/3 votes to raise our taxes 14 billion over 5 years.

California deficit is 41 billion for the 37 million residents - the State holds the first place and the runner up is NY with 13 billion for its 19 million residents, so the next most cash strapped State in the Union is less than half of CA's deficit per capita...

Worst of all, we have a Hollywood actor for Governor whom doesn't treat his campaign promices as anything binding.

[Parx400]

Stuka,

I think you would think differently about public employees if you were ever get in an accident and had police, firefighters, and paramedics come to your rescue.

I highly doubt Silicon Valley and the Web 2.0 jockeys can fullfill that role without stock options and playing fussball in the conference room.

Many of the public jobs being offered are backfill from the baby Boomers who are retiring in large numbers. More specifically in the areas of public safety.


The police and Fire fighters are not the problem. That is at the city level. It’s the SEIU State workers. You have the most redundant out dated business process and technology going on anywhere in the US. As the States IT modernization program moves forward you are going to have 10's of thousands of state workers being replaced by SAP. You guys know how Prisoners are transferred in CA? They hand them a folder on the bus with all their paper work. You know how the Prisons send their information back to Sacramento? Tapes in the mail. I **** you not. Multiple that by every business process across every department. These processes have been kept in place because the unions want as many people on the dole as they can. Any up grade to the process or technology will replace the unskilled human factor of pushing paper and making reports.

The first step to fixing CA is a complete implementation of ERP systems (SAP) across the state and local governments and a reclassification of all job roles. You can’t have 1970’s job functions and classifications with a system like SAP in 2009. The second is doing away with the archaic seniority system. If you get laid off you can bump some one at your old state job and take that position even if the new person is more qualified. Seniority is an old union throw back and does NOTHING for an organization. The third is doing away with the testing and list system. If a qualified person walks in the door they should be able to be hired on the spot.

[StukaJr]

California has always never adopted Federal Welfare Reform that was innacted by Clinton in 1996 - one of the reasons why California spends 3 times more on Welfare and has so many Welfare recipients whom are not encouraged in any way to gtfo (against Federal Reform, mind you).

There was an article in LA Times that 20% of the Los Angeles County Residence are on some kind of a public assistance...

[Ordie]

There was an article in LA Times that 20% of the Los Angeles County Residence are on some kind of a public assistance...

I got news for you.

Every student, and graduate of the California system of Community Colleges, State Universities and the UC System are and were on some kind of assitance through state subsisides, and academic grants.

Tuition only covers a small percentage, the rest is state funds.

So if you benefitted from California higher education, you have no reason to complain about public assistance.

[Walter Sobchak]

California has always never adopted Federal Welfare Reform that was enacted by Clinton in 1996 - one of the reasons why California spends 3 times more on Welfare and has so many Welfare recipients whom are not encouraged in any way to gtfo (against Federal Reform, mind you).

First, the 1996 Welfare Reform was effectively eliminated by the 787-billllllion dollar "stimulus" bill that was passed. That was one of those nasty little details no one got to read, debate or negotiate.


There was an article in LA Times that 20% of the Los Angeles County Residence are on some kind of a public assistance...

It's a known fact that when the number of parasites outstrip the ability of the living host to support them, the host animal dies.

[Rapier55]

I'm surprised no one has blamed the illegals in California. Anyhow, here's some tax info from state to state. Interesting reads on that website.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/f&f_booklet_20090224.pdf

California specific:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/topic/15.html


Too bad there isn't much info an workman's comp on that website and how it chased away so many manufacturing jobs, or what little were left.

[Ordie]

^^^
Make them legal taxpayers to offset the cost.

[Henry's Fork]

^^^
Make them legal taxpayers to offset the cost.

I fully agree.

But that also begs the other question.....how many of them actually want to become US citizens?

Because, i have yet to work with one who wants to stay. But mind you we are talking about the expensive Bay Area, im sure rent and cost of living looks better to them in AZ, NM, TX.

I might also add that the Legal Mexicans(Salvadorians, etc) who worked for my Fathers vineyard, were split down the middle. The older ones with familia here in the US wanted to stay and become Citizens, it was the kids and unnatached that wanted to take their earnings back home. Just my observation on one farm.

[Walter Sobchak]

^^^
Make them legal taxpayers to offset the cost.

But not 20-million new Democratic voters.


Too bad there isn't much info an workman's comp on that website and how it chased away so many manufacturing jobs, or what little were left.

There's a family business that just relocated to a suburban industrial park where one of my favorite gun stores is located. There are three brothers who moved here from City of Industry (ironic) and brought two long-service employees with them. They build custom race car components and do specialty metal and composite fabricating. They left Cali because three of their biggest customers came to Texas and Oklahoma and one of their suppliers had to leave SO-Cal and moved to Amarillo. They said that CAL-Med, CAL-EPA, CAL-OSHA (the strictest of the 28 state OSHA laws) and the Workers Comp taxes were breaking them.

They bought more house here. There's lower crime. Wages go farther. Their business taxes and costs are 32% lower. The oldest brother says that he misses the beach (Galveston ain't no beach!) and the mild climate, but he says that they literally cannot survive in California.

They laid off 11 people when they moved and have hired 10 people here, all skilled tradesmen.

[Ordie]

But no 20-million new Democratic voters.

Once attained legal status, the Republicans have six years to make thier case and convert them into GOP voters.

The GOP must evolve or forever be the next Whig party.

[StukaJr]

I got news for you.

Every student, and graduate of the California system of Community Colleges, State Universities and the UC System are and were on some kind of assitance through state subsisides, and academic grants.

Tuition only covers a small percentage, the rest is state funds.

So if you benefitted from California higher education, you have no reason to complain about public assistance.

I haven't, instead I found US Uni system a complete waste of money - half of the freshmen retaking High School required courses and any UC school worth anything on a resume also collect a yearly tuition that it will take equal number of years to recoup. If 20 grand a year of yearly tuition is small percentage - State is getting ripped off for this adult daycare system. Instead I went to a private trade school, paid cash and was working 12 months later (amongst college grads) and I've paid off the money I owed for the tuition not a year later. State wouldn't have anything to do with the school (90% professional field placement out of its students) and it ended up going bankrupt - I know scores of college grads that work retail and that's not because they want to.

I suppose I went to High School for 3 years and went to a free clinic to save $300 on X-Ray once in my life - that's all "Public Assistance" I've ever gotten. California State Income Tax is 9.3% for anyone making above - I'll beg to differ that it's "my funds", not state's. Finally, I don't mind that funds are being spent - I care that funds are being spent on absolute sh1t and there is no recourse or oversight. CA's High Schools are near the end in graduation (less than 50%), worst National test scores (number 47 I believe) and any attempt to break that is blocked by the Teacher's Union.

California is sliding deeper in the red and instead of righting the wrong, they pass more taxes - "Let them eat Cake" and Schwarzenegger is the new Marie Antoinette

[Rapier55]

I haven't, instead I found US Uni system a complete waste of money - half of the freshmen retaking High School required courses and any UC school worth anything on a resume also collect a yearly tuition that it will take equal number of years to recoup. If 20 grand a year of yearly tuition is small percentage - State is getting ripped off for this adult daycare system. Instead I went to a private trade school, paid cash and was working 12 months later (amongst college grads) and I've paid off the money I owed for the tuition not a year later. State wouldn't have anything to do with the school (90% professional field placement out of its students) and it ended up going bankrupt - I know scores of college grads that work retail and that's not because they want to.


I have to disagree with you on the "US University system" being a waste of money. Almost everyone I went to school with and many other friends that attended UC's all had good to great paying jobs within 6 months of graduating or were attending graduate/med/law school. Not one that I can recall was "retaking" high school classes for freshman courses, either. In addition, in my close group of friends most of us were on track to pay off our student loans within 5 years, others much sooner. That's a pretty small price to pay since those degrees earned them admission into some of the top MBA programs and med schools in the country. It's safe to say that it was also a good investment by the state. Going to college is no guarantee or magic ticket. College is what you make of it and obviously it's not for everybody. Also, colleges are nationally/globally ranked in certain departments for a reason.

So you can call the US university system a joke but statistics have proven that on average, persons with a college degree will in their lifetime earn more than those with just a high school degree. That is unless you majored in Art History or have terrible grades. I can't speak much for trade/tech schools.

[StukaJr]

I have to disagree with you on the "US University system" being a waste of money. Almost everyone I went to school with and many other friends that attended UC's all had good to great paying jobs within 6 months of graduating or were attending graduate/med/law school. Not one that I can recall was "retaking" high school classes for freshman courses, either. In addition, in my close group of friends most of us were on track to pay off our student loans within 5 years, others much sooner. That's a pretty small price to pay since those degrees earned them admission into some of the top MBA programs and med schools in the country. It's safe to say that it was also a good investment by the state. Going to college is no guarantee or magic ticket. College is what you make of it and obviously it's not for everybody. Also, colleges are nationally/globally ranked in certain departments for a reason.

So you can call the US university system a joke but statistics have proven that on average, persons with a college degree will in their lifetime earn more than those with just a high school degree. That is unless you majored in Art History or have terrible grades. I can't speak much for trade/tech schools.

So your personal experience is different than mine - maybe because everything in Califorina is double the price than everywhere else (UC tuition average is double other State average, that's on top of our higher taxes).

Californian State income Tax is 9.3% (kicks in after 45k income), Sales tax is 9.25% after April 1st in Los Angeles County, car tax has been doubled (prior to this it has been the highest in the Nation, now it's beyond reach of any other State), highest business tax, OSHA, unemployment insurance, environmental tax etc. Now, highest car tax is supposed to pay for "freeways", but latest bypass built on taxpayers' money was handed over to a private company and turned into a pay-per-use toll-road (that's because car tax funds anything but the freeways). California has some of the worst Public School System and growing attendance at Private Schools (talk about paying twice for education), SoCal has some of the worst traffic (back when the freeways were built, the income tax was raised to 5%) and Los Angeles County's poverty level is slightly above 25,000 annual income for single person, while about any public assistance completely disappears at about 65K (that's not even Middle Class). Child credit has been slashed by two thirds (good luck raising a kid on hundred bucks a month), but I'm glad that nature trail preservation work will go on as planned (god forbid for hikers to actually watch where they are going).

So after that rant, do tell me that the extra craploads of money that Californians pay make for a better State. It's kinda like NY City - nice to visit but wouldn't live there. As per education - 50% drop out rate out of High School, talk of raising of UC tuition prices again (while it's already double of other States), rising tax burden making it prohibitive to make a proper Educational Fund (I assure you, 3% or so of parents' income would make a nice college fund over child's lifetime).

[Rapier55]

So your personal experience is different than mine - maybe because everything in Califorina is double the price than everywhere else (UC tuition average is double other State average, that's on top of our higher taxes).

Californian State income Tax is 9.3% (kicks in after 45k income), Sales tax is 9.25% after April 1st in Los Angeles County, car tax has been doubled (prior to this it has been the highest in the Nation, now it's beyond reach of any other State), highest business tax, OSHA, unemployment insurance, environmental tax etc. Now, highest car tax is supposed to pay for "freeways", but latest bypass built on taxpayers' money was handed over to a private company and turned into a pay-per-use toll-road (that's because car tax funds anything but the freeways). California has some of the worst Public School System and growing attendance at Private Schools (talk about paying twice for education), SoCal has some of the worst traffic (back when the freeways were built, the income tax was raised to 5%) and Los Angeles County's poverty level is slightly above 25,000 annual income for single person, while about any public assistance completely disappears at about 65K (that's not even Middle Class). Child credit has been slashed by two thirds (good luck raising a kid on hundred bucks a month), but I'm glad that nature trail preservation work will go on as planned (god forbid for hikers to actually watch where they are going).

So after that rant, do tell me that the extra craploads of money that Californians pay make for a better State. It's kinda like NY City - nice to visit but wouldn't live there. As per education - 50% drop out rate out of High School, talk of raising of UC tuition prices again (while it's already double of other States), rising tax burden making it prohibitive to make a proper Educational Fund (I assure you, 3% or so of parents' income would make a nice college fund over child's lifetime).
Sounds like you've been driving the 405 too long. Look, I disagree with you when you say going to college is a waste. I don't know one person that did well, from the jc level to the doctorate level that would say the California college system is a waste. I do agree with most everything else you said. I don't mind paying taxes, even a little more when needed. However, like you I have a problem when there seems to be no tangible return and they keep asking for more.

[StukaJr]

Sounds like you've been driving the 405 too long. Look, I disagree with you when you say going to college is a waste. I don't know one person that did well, from the jc level to the doctorate level that would say the California college system is a waste. I do agree with most everything else you said. I don't mind paying taxes, even a little more when needed. However, like you I have a problem when there seems to be no tangible return and they keep asking for more.

When you pay a lot more taxes of the neighbor State on top of double tuition for what is otherwise the same level of education - you don't need college education to know you are getting fleeced.

As for education, poor college preparation in High School is amongst the top reasons for waste of funds in the UC system - I've read a while back that as high as 20% of the students take classes required for high schoold graduation, otherwise, why would University offer Algebra 2 classes? High School is the problem... Like I've mentioned before, Cali graduation rate is 50% - that's in the "High School" that requires Algebra 2 as highest Mathematics class and Physics is an "elective". So the proposed solution is to lower the requirements to graduate, making a lot more subjects elective - that's surely investing into "Idiocrasy" circa future.

Now, you may have had different experience.

[Rapier55]

When you pay a lot more taxes of the neighbor State on top of double tuition for what is otherwise the same level of education - you don't need college education to know you are getting fleeced.
You may get the same "level" of education but not the same quality. It's obvious we have different experiences but facts speak for themselves. No other state's public university system (doctorate level) can even come close to comparing to the UC System. Not only do we hold the top spot (Cal!) but we hold 6 out of the top 15 spots in the whole country. The amount of publications, bio-med research/discovery and studies that come out of the UC system is astronomical. Top global companies and graduate programs recruit heavily in the UC system. Can our state neighbors say the same?

Those are in my opinion some of the best spent tax dollars in this state. The real question is do we really pay double and is it worth it? To maintain top professors and state of the art facilities costs money. I get the feeling you are confusing the Cal State System with the UC? I've never heard of such problems to the magnitude you describe. The Cal State system is different system with symptoms indicative of the problems you mentioned.


As for education, poor college preparation in High School is amongst the top reasons for waste of
funds in the UC system - I've read a while back that as high as 20% of the students take classes
required for high schoold graduation, otherwise, why would University offer Algebra 2 classes?
High School is the problem... Like I've mentioned before, Cali graduation rate is 50% - that's in
the "High School" that requires Algebra 2 as highest Mathematics class and Physics is an
"elective". So the proposed solution is to lower the requirements to graduate, making a lot more
subjects elective - that's surely investing into "Idiocrasy" circa future.

Now, you may have had different experience.
First off, 20% sounds a little high for a UC. Algebra 2 is offered for majors that require the minimum amount of logical/analytical mathematical concepts; be it art, language or some sort of humanities. Show me a major university that doesn't offer it. And yes, it is also there for remedial instruction. Nevertheless, if remedial classes are a waste of funds do you suggest we kick the students out of school for not being prepared? Is it the UC's fault that public high schools are failing to properly prepare students for college, inflating their grades so they can gain admissions? UC admission standards are some of the highest in the country with some of the lowest acceptance rates. As much as they try not every student will be at the same level come day one of their college career.

One of two things will happen to students taking "high school" classes. Kids that can't compete will get weeded out. If you're GPA is too low for too long you get kicked out. It's a fact, it happens all the time. Or, the student hits the floor running and comes up to speed making whatever remedial courses taken worth it's value in gold. Nobody will know a students true performance until tested in a dynamic college setting. From my experience, if a student can't compete (remedial) in his lower division work there's really no way he can sustain his upper division work. Call it a waste but I see no other alternative in the system. You're contention is with the public high school system and not the UC.

[StukaJr]

You may get the same "level" of education but not the same quality. It's obvious we have different experiences but facts speak for themselves. No other state's public university system (doctorate level) can even come close to comparing to the UC System. Not only do we hold the top spot (Cal!) but we hold 6 out of the top 15 spots in the whole country. The amount of publications, bio-med research/discovery and studies that come out of the UC system is astronomical. Top global companies and graduate programs recruit heavily in the UC system. Can our state neighbors say the same?


US produces best doctors and lawyers, but relies heavily on the "brain drain" for mathematicians and sciences... 30% of our company's programmers are here on H1 Visas - National Mathematics K9-K12 competitions are a good example, as majority of the winners are the first generation immigrants from EU or Asia (because they are taught Trig in 10th grade and Physcics are yearly requirements since 6th Grade).



Those are in my opinion some of the best spent tax dollars in this state. The real question is do we really pay double and is it worth it? To maintain top professors and state of the art facilities costs money. I get the feeling you are confusing the Cal State System with the UC? I've never heard of such problems to the magnitude you describe. The Cal State system is different system with symptoms indicative of the problems you mentioned.


If letters U and C appear in a row, it's the UC System School p-) I finished High School to know that much... Cal State is... well, Cal State :|



First off, 20% sounds a little high for a UC. Algebra 2 is offered for majors that require the minimum amount of logical/analytical mathematical concepts; be it art, language or some sort of humanities. Show me a major university that doesn't offer it. And yes, it is also there for remedial instruction. Nevertheless, if remedial classes are a waste of funds do you suggest we kick the students out of school for not being prepared? Is it the UC's fault that public high schools are failing to properly prepare students for college, inflating their grades so they can gain admissions? UC admission standards are some of the highest in the country with some of the lowest acceptance rates. As much as they try not every student will be at the same level come day one of their college career.

One of two things will happen to students taking "high school" classes. Kids that can't compete will get weeded out. If you're GPA is too low for too long you get kicked out. It's a fact, it happens all the time. Or, the student hits the floor running and comes up to speed making whatever remedial courses taken worth it's value in gold. Nobody will know a students true performance until tested in a dynamic college setting. From my experience, if a student can't compete (remedial) in his lower division work there's really no way he can sustain his upper division work. Call it a waste but I see no other alternative in the system. You're contention is with the public high school system and not the UC.

You are and Your p-)

I don't have a problem with higher education - I have problem with waste of public money... If Public Schools waste money - I have problem with it. If Colleges then waste money to teach courses that should have been taught in High School - I have a problem with that as well as I don't like to pay for things twice... The Trade School I attended provided Bachelor Equivalent in ten months of education - because we didn't take Spring Breaks, keggers or took fluff classes to pad out the credits. This is purely a budget issue - if California had a forty billion surplus, I'd be all up for throwing spaghetti at the wall. But unless you draw a straight line of success from child's birth to college graduation (and I don't make a break between public money spent on education as having no relation between K12 school and college) - I can't justify the money spent. Granted, most of the problems are caused prior to getting to college and UC system is the stellar pinnacle of excellence so I won't touch to avoid further arguement... Apart from the fact that their budget is f#$ked... Again... And if they raise their tuition to cover the gap then the quality of education improvess... or not...

[Zerazax]

I too was a UC system grad (UCLA) and it's easy to see why it's one of the best public school systems. I think you've got the stats mixed up, cause those issues were NO WHERE near prevalent at all (or even near those rates you cited) compared to some of the Cal States.

I understand when someone argues that they dont want a cent of tax money sent to public education, but I make the exception for universities - because those who graduate are far more likely to pay back society for those costs, and more, than those who don't go to university (and the research and findings benefit the nation as a whole).

The UC system, and even the Cal State system, are far from the list of issues with the state. I'd rather residents who get a good education and stay to continue benefitting society, than the alternatives. Now if you're talking about high school or lower education, then that's another story

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

That is unless you majored in Art History or have terrible grades. I can't speak much for trade/tech schools.

What is you're beef with art?

My university has one of the best success rates in the country for students going on to embark in successful careers in the art world. It's around something like 80% of all Bachelor of Fine Art students end up actually making a living off their art, work in an associated field (advertising, media) or end up working in art galleries and museums.

[Rapier55]

What is you're beef with art?

Haha, nothing. I actually enjoyed my art history classes. They were some of the few classes that actually captivated me. I just found that friends (and family) had a harder time finding jobs right out of college. Or, at least the better paying jobs when compared to some of the "science" careers.

[StukaJr]

Lol, I'll consent - UC system is the only thing that still works in the CA that has been discussed in the thread... That and firefihgters...

Back onto the topic - California budget growing by 40 billion dollars since Shwarznegger took over and dipping 12 billion further in the red...

Start pointing fingers, 'cause we are the bestest p-)

[sinophile]

Calfornia isn't just a leader in education!

CA also beats the national average in incarceration of adults by 5%.

- Over 700,000 on supervision.
- More than 170,000 incarcerated.
- + 35,000 per inmate incarceration cost with its 9.7 billion dollar budget.

* source: http://www.nicic.org/Features/StateStats/?State=CA

[Ordie]

Calfornia isn't just a leader in education!

CA also beats the national average in incarceration of adults by 5%.

- Over 700,000 on supervision.
- More than 170,000 incarcerated.
- + 35,000 per inmate incarceration cost with its 9.7 billion dollar budget.

* source: http://www.nicic.org/Features/StateStats/?State=CA

Much of it due to mandatory sentencing for drug offenders. A policy that does not work due to unequal terms for type of drug.

[Jobu]

Why California is "dying"?


Californians

[ViktorNavorski]

What's the status on that 50,000 California prisoners must-be-release issue?

[StukaJr]

According to the quote of California's Attorney General Jerry Brown, the State has more than six thousand laws on its books on top of all of the Federal laws, making a lot of obscure felonies that are either unknown, State specific or straight up ridiculous.

Shining example is the 150 year old law (from the day of the warring Triads in SF Chinatown) that makes it a felony to own any kind of martial art weapons (not actually carry or use, but have it boxed up in a garage or attic) - shurikens, nunchaku's, billy clubs, the L-shaped clubs, black jacks and about anything you've seen in a martial art related movie... So technically, if DA wants to prosecute (and there are cases of where they did) - anybody collecting edged weapons, practicing any kind of weapon related martial art or orders junk from Mail Order catalogs, could get easily charged with felonies.

There was a case years back when a truck driver was dragged through courts and tens of thousands dollars of legal fees for having a tire thumper (for the truck he was driving) as it ambiguously looked like a billy club. It even had "Tire Thumper" stamped onto the side.

[Rapier55]

Why California is "dying"?


Californians
Define Californians.

[StukaJr]

Apparently, another thing that Schwarznegger did when he took the office, is let public officials and Cabinet members live where they live and fly or drive into Sacramento (on taxpayer's buck) and expense weekly Hotel stays. Schwarznegger started this by flying back to LA every day (great environmentalist) so not to stay in the dumpy Governor's Mansion - I guess, everybody else followed.

Los Angeles Times has more on that:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/cal/la-me-expenses1-2009mar01,0,3432183.story

And "State's middle class getting less for its tax dollars"

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/cal/la-me-budget1-2009mar01,0,5896053.story