Tiananmen mothers call for probe

[Ordie]

Tiananmen mothers call for probe of 1989 crackdown

Tiananmen mothers call for probe of 1989 crackdown (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/02/26/international/i193134S27.DTL)
In this June 4, 2008 file photo, Ding Zilin, co-founder of the Tiananmen Mothers, a group representing families of those who died in the 1989 crackdown on pro-democracy demonstrations, stands in front of a shrine to her son, Jiang Jielian, at her apartment in Beijing. (Greg Baker / AP)

http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2009/02/27/ba-china_tiananm_0499847685.jpg
An injured female student was carried out of Tiananmen Square during the 1989 pro-democracy protests as Chinese troops and tanks advanced. (*******)
http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2009/02/27/ba-tiananmen_b_1_422021222.jpg
The bodies of dead civilians lie among mangled bicycles near Beijing's Tiananmen Square early June 4, 1989. Tanks and soldiers stormed the area overnight, bringing a violent end to student demonstrations for democratic reform in China. (Associated Press)
http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2009/02/27/ba-china_tiananm_422021159.jpg
By TINI TRAN, Associated Press Writer
Friday, February 27, 2009
[/URL] (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/n/a/2009/02/26/international/i193134S27.DTL&o=0&type=printable)



(02-27) 07:18 PST BEIJING, China (AP) --
Two decades after China's crackdown on pro-democracy protests in Tiananmen Square, a group of mothers who lost their children in the uprising is calling on the country's leaders to "break the taboo" and account for the deaths.
The Tiananmen Mothers group sent an open letter to legislators calling for a full investigation, compensation to victims' families and punishment of those responsible for the military crackdown on student-led protesters.
The appeal, released Friday through the New York-based group Human Rights in China, is similar to ones made in the past by Tiananmen Mothers. But it comes just months before the 20th anniversary of the Tiananmen protests during a politically sensitive year in which the government is dealing with concerns about social stability and the ongoing economic crisis.
The letter, signed by 127 people who said their children or family members were victims, calls the military crackdown "nothing short of an unconscionable atrocity."
At the time, China's leaders deemed the peaceful protests a threat to Communist Party rule and sent tanks and troops on June 3-4, 1989, to crush them. Hundreds — possibly thousands — of people are believed to have been killed.
In the 20 years since, China has never offered a full accounting of the crackdown, which government leaders refer to as a "political disturbance." An official silence has been maintained around the incident, with nothing written in school textbooks and public discussion virtually taboo.
"This will require each deputy to demonstrate extraordinary courage and resourcefulness, political courage and wisdom, to break the taboo and face head-on the unspeakable tragedy that took place 20 years ago," said the letter, referring to delegates attending next week's annual legislative session of the National People's Congress.
Earlier this week, newspapers in Hong Kong reported that a leading pro-Beijing politician had condemned the crackdown on the student protests — a rare departure from the central government's official stance.
"Suppressing students was surely wrong," Tsang Yok-sing, who serves as president of Hong Kong's legislature, told university students, the South China Morning Post reported.
Tsang's party, the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong, is seen as a staunch ally of Beijing and rarely criticizes the central government.
This year is a particularly sensitive time for China's leadership, with several volatile anniversaries that could test the country, including next month's 50th anniversary of a failed Tibetan uprising. Security has already been stepped up in Tibet and in predominantly Tibetan areas in western China with the memory of last year's anti-government riots in Lhasa still fresh.
The government also has been wary of the potential for mass social unrest as the economic downturn has pushed more than 20 million migrant workers out of jobs in recent months. Thousands of unemployed people have protested factory shutdowns and demanded back pay in several Chinese cities.
Police across the nation are being trained in Beijing to improve their response to public security threats in the provinces.
On Thursday night, police in Beijing took away more than 1,000 petitioners who came to seek redress for problems with local officials ahead of the legislative session, a supporter said Friday.
They were pulled from their hotel rooms by security forces and driven away in public buses, said Zhou Li, a Beijing native who helps petitioners.

Source:[url]http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/02/26/international/i193134S27.DTL (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/n/a/2009/02/26/international/i193134S27.DTL&o=2&type=printable)

[Mu-Meson]

Yeah, good luck with that.

[dave81]

On Thursday night, police in Beijing took away more than 1,000 petitioners who came to seek redress for problems with local officials ahead of the legislative session, a supporter said Friday.
They were pulled from their hotel rooms by security forces and driven away in public buses, said Zhou Li, a Beijing native who helps petitioners.And in other news, North Korea recently welcomed a "Peace & Goodwill" envoy of about 1,000 well-wishers from neighboring China. No word yet on what their itinerary will be or when their return flight is scheduled.

[Connaught Ranger]

A call into a vast vacuum filled void. . . . . hopefully she doesn't hold her breath waiting for an answer, the Chinese Gubberment is to busy bitching about stolen relics!:roll:

[Ordie]

These mothers and parents have nothing to lose. Because without thier kids they have nothing to live for.

[One Man Gang]

The government also has been wary of the potential for mass social unrest as the economic downturn has pushed more than 20 million migrant workers out of jobs in recent months. Thousands of unemployed people have protested factory shutdowns and demanded back pay in several Chinese cities.
Police across the nation are being trained in Beijing to improve their response to public security threats in the provinces.
On Thursday night, police in Beijing took away more than 1,000 petitioners who came to seek redress for problems with local officials ahead of the legislative session, a supporter said Friday

But ... But ... There's a lot we can learn from the Chinese.

President Hopenchange said so!

[dave81]

Yeah, well, President Staythecourse said Pakistan and Saudi Arabia were our allies in the War on Terra, so...

[Henry's Fork]

Snowballs chance in hell.

Much props to the parents. Dont worry, Karma is going to bite the Chicoms on the asse big time!!

[Ordie]

Snowballs chance in hell.

Much props to the parents. Dont worry, Karma is going to bite the Chicoms on the asse big time!!

Yes and no...

I agree that the events of 1989 should be recognized.

However we might feel about the CCP, the alternative may be worst in the form of a more Hardline Nationalist Sino-centric regime.

[TheMiddlePath]

Yes and no...

I agree that the events of 1989 should be recognized.

However we might feel about the CCP, the alternative may be worst in the form of a more Hardline Nationalist Sino-centric regime.


Chinese people has move on from TAM already.

Today students are busy studying to get a master degree.
PLA is now very respected organization having specialised in effective disaster rescue operations.
CCP top leaders today are more popular then ever.
Exile students in US are busy making money and only come out once a year to say something then go back to make money.

It seems the only people that has not move on are people like you.


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3831223&postcount=65

[Kilgor]

Chinese people has move on from TAM already.



Move on ?

They were never told the truth and the truth is still blocked to this day.

[TheMiddlePath]

Move on ?

They were never told the truth and the truth is still blocked to this day.


No....YOU never wanted the truth.

http://tiananmenmyth.blogspot.com/

[Ordie]

CCP top leaders today are more popular then ever.

Can the CCP win in popular democratic elections tommorrow?



It seems the only people that has not move on are people like you.

I find it ironic that Chinese are quick to forget the events in 1989 and the Cultural Revolution but never forget about the Opuim Wars, Boxer Rebellion, the Rape of Nanjing and the NATO mistaken bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade .

I see a pattern and selective memory at play

[TheMiddlePath]

Can the CCP win in popular democratic elections tommorrow?




I find it ironic that Chinese are quick to forget the events in 1989 and the Cultural Revolution but never forget about the Opuim Wars, Boxer Rebellion, the Rape of Nanjing and the NATO mistaken bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade .

I see a pattern and selective memory at play

Gosh Ordie, this thread is about TAM. You need to stop going off on a double tangent.

Cultural Revolution has NOT been forgoten. It has been accessed, many top leaders responsible was arrested, put on trial and jailed. Mao himself was accessed. Deng himself persecuted, came to power. Lessons were learned and CCP implemented many changes to that affect.

Please do not equate Move on as Forgotten.

[Adux]

I love CCP cadets, Doesnt matter even if the foreigner is telling the truth, as long as face is kept through out right denial, I know one more culture akin to it,

[Invisigoth]

Chinese people has move on from TAM already.

Today students are busy studying to get a master degree.
PLA is now very respected organization having specialised in effective disaster rescue operations.
CCP top leaders today are more popular then ever.
Exile students in US are busy making money and only come out once a year to say something then go back to make money.

It seems the only people that has not move on are people like you.


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3831223&postcount=65

So how do you like your life in a government run ChiCom sweatshop, where you busily slave away convincing us Western gweilos to embrace our Chinese overlords?

Seriously, the least they could do is teach you proper English in return for your work.

[TheMiddlePath]

I love CCP cadets, Doesnt matter even if the foreigner is telling the truth, as long as face is kept through out right denial, I know one more culture akin to it,


Errrr...... You are hard to understand. PBS IS a foreign news media. It finally admitted that many western news media was wrong on TAM....after about 20yrs.

[Ordie]

Here is the pattern:

If its Chinese internal crisis or turmoil no matter the gravity and casualities, it's not to be discussed, debated, forgiven and forgotten.

If its an external transgression against China, no matter the gravity and casualties, its a serious humiliating event never to be forgotten nor forgiven.

It's inconsistent.

[TheMiddlePath]

Here is the pattern:

If its Chinese internal crisis or turmoil no matter the gravity and casualities, it's not to be discussed, debated, forgiven and forgotten.

If its an external transgression against China, no matter the gravity and casualties, its a serious humiliating event never to be forgotten nor forgiven.

It's inconsistent.


Be patient. China and CCP are changing very year.

[LineDoggie]

Be patient. China and CCP are changing very year. Yes, from Communist Totalitarianist cult of personality state to a Communist Totalitarianist bureaucratic state......


Completly different :roll:

Funny though that someone who says they are Maylasian spends so much time parroting the PRC government line.......

[Jobu]

CCP says "nothing to see here folks, move along."

2+2 only equals what the party says it does.

[LineDoggie]

1 western witness who claims nothing happened there

And also happens to have lived there for decades unmolested by the party


Wanna bet he's a Parrot?

[Ordie]

If nothing happened, why is Beijing stepping up its efforts to quell petitioners and dissidents on the eve of the 20th anniversary?

[badguy2000]

the death of students in Tiananmen accident was indeed a tragedy.

But If the students had succeeded in throwing out CCP and coming into the power, it would have be a bigger tragedy,

If the students in Tiananmen square had succeeded, there would be not a economy miracle ,but a civil war,chaos and turmol in CHina now.More people would die in the coming disorder,which has been proven in Chechnya, Yugoslavia and Georgia again and again.

only several dozen students died in Tiananmen accident, but over 80000 people died in Chechnya.

In 1980s, people's life quality in Yugoslavia and Soviet was admired by ordinary chinese,but how about now?
In 1980s, Soviet power made the whole world thrilled,but how about russia today?
In 1980s, China was begging foreign investment all over the world, but how about it today?

Frankly speaking, it was really unlucky for the people in former Soviet Union that what they had was not wise Deng Xiaoping,but stupid Mikhail Gorbachev.

Chinese people now are tired of waste ideological debate about Jesus Allah and Marx.

[Ordie]

the death of students in Tiananmen accident was indeed a tragedy.

APC's intentionally running into people is not an accident.

The 1989 demonstrations was a wake up call to the CCP on many levels.

The consequences was the rapid liberal economic policies to placate the masses, the development of the PLA into a more professional and loyal force and all CCP debates to be kept behind the doors.

Li Peng (and his family), the "bad cop" behind the crackdown, is now in control of the lucrative energy sector in China.

[Ordie]

In 1980s, China was begging foreign investment all over the world, but how about it today?

20 million unemployed
Pervasive CCP corruption at the local level
Environmental degredation
Restlessness in Tibet and the rural areas
Unaccessible education and heathcare
Just to name a few.

[badguy2000]

20 million unemployed
Pervasive CCP corruption at the local level
Environmental degredation
Restlessness in Tibet and the rural areas
Unaccessible education and heathcare
Just to name a few.
I think the four problems/4 also exist in USA,because USA's population is 1/4 of CHina's.

1,there are 7.5 million unemployed in USA,aren' there?


2.Pervasive CCP corruption at the "wall street" level. have you know about "gold para"?
3.Restlessness in Iraq and Afghanistan Congradutiaons on Yankees, they succeeded in trasfered the reslessness to other countries..

[Ordie]

I think the four problems/4 also exist in USA,because USA's population is 1/4 of CHina's.

1,there are 7.5 million unemployed in USA,aren' there?


2.Pervasive CCP corruption at the "wall street" level. have you know about "gold para"?
3.Restlessness in Iraq and Afghanistan Congradutiaons on Yankees, they succeeded in trasfered the reslessness to other countries..


The difference its that we elected a new president and congress to fix these problems.

[Fage]

The difference its that we elected a new president

What's the big deal?
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1239/1366411450_e561847734_o.jpg

[LineDoggie]

What's the big deal?
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1239/1366411450_e561847734_o.jpg Interesting, of Course Mugabe and Zimbabwe's rulers are propped up by the PRC.........:)

[Daft Ego]

20 million unemployed
Pervasive CCP corruption at the local level
Environmental degredation
Restlessness in Tibet and the rural areas
Unaccessible education and heathcare
Just to name a few.

Ok, so it proves that China is not a perfect country, great! Tell me something I don't know.

I find it really funny how some people think that all of China's problems are going to disappear overnight if it suddenly turns into a democratic state. Corruption is corruption, it's mutually inclusive in all forms of government. In the end, it's still pot meets kettle when someone points out the flaws in others.

Think about it.

[LineDoggie]

Ok, so it proves that China is not a perfect country, great! Tell me something I don't know.

I find it really funny how some people think that all of China's problems are going to disappear overnight if it suddenly turns into a democratic state. Corruption is corruption, it's mutually inclusive in all forms of government. In the end, it's still pot meets kettle when someone points out the flaws in others.

Think about it.

Really? I didnt see us Kill 40 Million during the industrial Revolution here

I dont see the gov running people over with tanks and later disappearing the mothers for asking what happened to their Kids?

Your mileage may differ

[Ordie]

What's the big deal?


A country cannot be governed with out legitimacy of its constituency. Free elections provides the government that legitimacy.

The era of economic prosperity had given the CCP legtimacy, however the CCP cannot keep up in adressing the negative externalities of a liberal free market economy from above through quotas.

The CCP needs to allow more freedom to grass roots non governmental organization to provide essential services in areas of the environment, health care, labor, land use and education. These organization are focused on the task and are altruistic in nature. Unlike the local Communist Party members who are more self-serving on meeting quotas, and promotions.

That's where the problems begin, at the local level.

[Daft Ego]

Really? I didnt see us Kill 40 Million during the industrial Revolution here

I dont see the gov running people over with tanks and later disappearing the mothers for asking what happened to their Kids?

Your mileage may differ

Ok, so China fcuked up during those times.

But tell me linedoggie, what other interests do you have other than bashing China and reiterating the same old fcuking **** in every other thread about China? Does it make you feel like a true American patriot? Or are you just an asshat in general, and that it makes you happy by pointing out the flaws in other countries? Tell me, because it seems like you're beating a dead horse every time I read one of your post.

Let me get this straight once and for all, I understand people who dislike the Chinese government for what they did. But there is a clear line between criticizing a political party and prejudice against an entire country and its people. Some of you here fall into the latter category, and you know who you are (or maybe you don't because you're too thickheaded to realize).

So now then, the real question is, what's the point of this little "battle of words", where in the end, accomplishes nothing but perpetuate the hate from both sides?

-Just some opinions from a realist.

[Ordie]

Ok, so it proves that China is not a perfect country, great! Tell me something I don't know.

I find it really funny how some people think that all of China's problems are going to disappear overnight if it suddenly turns into a democratic state. Corruption is corruption, it's mutually inclusive in all forms of government. In the end, it's still pot meets kettle when someone points out the flaws in others.

Think about it.

You're right democracy will not solve problems, but it serves as a mitigating tool in dealing with internal and external pressures.

[Connaught Ranger]

Ok, so China fcuked up during those times.

Yes, they did and continue to do it, so until they fix their problem, those outside of China will continue to view them with suspicion.

But tell me linedoggie, what other interests do you have other than bashing China and reiterating the same old fcuking **** in every other thread about China? Does it make you feel like a true American patriot? Or are you just an asshat in general, and that it makes you happy by pointing out the flaws in other countries? Tell me, because it seems like you're beating a dead horse every time I read one of your post.

Saddle up the high horse,:roll: its a Public Forum, the man is entitled to post his opinion, as many times as he likes, as long as he does not break any MP.net rules

Let me get this straight once and for all, I understand people who dislike the Chinese government for what they did. But there is a clear line between criticizing a political party and prejudice against an entire country and its people. Some of you here fall into the latter category, and you know who you are (or maybe you don't because you're too thickheaded to realize).

Who got out of the wrong side of the bed today :roll:

So now then, the real question is, what's the point of this little "battle of words", where in the end, accomplishes nothing but perpetuate the hate from both sides?

-Just some opinions from a realist.

Do only your self opinions count:cantbeli:

[Jobu]

A country cannot be governed with out legitimacy of its constituency.


Yes it can, through brutality. A police state can hold onto power indefinitely as long as it keeps ahead of the game with an effective crackdown against dissent. I think history has shown that it's a method with a proven track record.

I wish it were not true of course but it is.

[Ordie]

Yes it can, through brutality. A police state can hold onto power indefinitely as long as it keeps ahead of the game with an effective crackdown against dissent. I think history has shown that it's a method with a proven track record.

I wish it were not true of course but it is.

Not an efficient way to run a country when you dedicate much of your resources towards self-preservation.

During order of succession, a despotic nation is always fragile.

[ferguson]

I think it is possible to disrespect the Chinese Government without having anything against the Chinese people.
I seem to recall most of the casualties were after the demonstrations had ended and thet were folks from outer areas waiting to get home.

Those mothers will probably disappear shortly.

[Daft Ego]

Do only your self opinions count:cantbeli:

No one is on the high horse except for you and your ":roll:" and ":cantbeli:" smilies.

Drum roll...Yet another hypocrite on mp.net.

[TheMiddlePath]

Really? I didnt see us Kill 40 Million during the industrial Revolution here

I dont see the gov running people over with tanks and later disappearing the mothers for asking what happened to their Kids?

Your mileage may differ

Oh no .... its Linedoggie on a Anti-China crusade.

So ..how many Europeans were killed by Europeans in WW1 and WW2.
Now I know 6million Poles were killed. 20million Russians were killed, 6 million European Jews were killed. Thats not counting the rest and thats only WW2.

So you guys killed more. So China wins you lose. Ha Ha ..... GOSH !

[TheMiddlePath]

A country cannot be governed with out legitimacy of its constituency. Free elections provides the government that legitimacy.

The era of economic prosperity had given the CCP legtimacy, however the CCP cannot keep up in adressing the negative externalities of a liberal free market economy from above through quotas.

The CCP needs to allow more freedom to grass roots non governmental organization to provide essential services in areas of the environment, health care, labor, land use and education. These organization are focused on the task and are altruistic in nature. Unlike the local Communist Party members who are more self-serving on meeting quotas, and promotions.

That's where the problems begin, at the local level.

Facts speaks louder then rhechorics.

Pew Survey done in 2008.
http://i43.tinypic.com/sxlw0h.jpg

[Kilgor]

Ha

Satisfaction Survey in China ?

For a country that does not allow free speech, its a interesting poll.

[TheMiddlePath]

I think it is possible to disrespect the Chinese Government without having anything against the Chinese people.
I seem to recall most of the casualties were after the demonstrations had ended and thet were folks from outer areas waiting to get home.

Those mothers will probably disappear shortly.

Seeking the truth from facts. Since nobody commented on my earlier post..... here it is again.

The Myth of Tiananmen Square Massacre

Recent PBS Frontline segment "The Tank Man" cleared up couple misconception about TAM incident.

Friday, April 25, 2008

Eye Witness On The Ground: Graham Earnshaw


Here's Journalist Graham Earnshaw's eye witness account of what happened that evening (http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:bCCLvicEPdAJ:www.earnshaw.com/memoirs/content.php%3Fid%3D16):


By somewhere around 2am, things on were Square were getting pretty desperate. Beijing residents and most of the students had filtered away. The tent city was largely empty. Those remaining on the square had gravitated towards one of two points -- the north of the square where the confrontation with the military was in progress, and the Monument, the heart of the insurrection.
...
I stayed. I moved at some point over to the kerb on the side of the Square, under the trees. The students remaining had grouped themselves around the Monument. Elizabeth left and went back to the Peking Hotel to get word of what was happening on the Square through to ******* office and the world -- the battery on our pioneering mobile phone had basically given. So I sat alone on the side of the Square, watching the sky slowly betray the first hints of light

[Note: Reuter journalist Elisabeth Pisani later reported shooting on TAM grounds, however according Earnshaw Pisani had left the square hours before.]

It gradually became light, a mid-summer dawn, cloudless but gray nonetheless. The tattered tent city stretched out over the expanse of square over on my right. The mobile phone battery had died. And then everything happened at once. I don't remember seeing the students leave the monument, although they did -- filing off to the south as a result of an agreement with the PLA commanders while the tanks and troops entered the square from the north. But I remember clearly watching the tanks and armored cars move in orderly columns down the square, riding over the tents and the debris. It was later said by some that they bulldozed through sleeping students, but I don't believe it. No one could still have been asleep in those tents after that night.



posted by bobby fletcher at 10:09 AM (http://tiananmenmyth.blogspot.com/2008/04/eye-witness-on-ground-graham-earnshaw.html) 0 comments (https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=26129276&postID=5048522288019139520) http://www.blogger.com/img/icon18_edit_allbkg.gif (http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=26129276&postID=5048522288019139520)

Saturday, April 15, 2006

On "Pack Journalism"


Former Canadian embassador to Japan, Gregory Clark, had a similiar take on the subject:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CLA20060410&articleId=2245 (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CLA20060410&articleId=2245)

One example is the pack journalistic myth of a Tiananmen Square massacre of students in 1989. All one needs to do to get the true story is insert "Tiananmen" into Google and read the reports at the time from none other than the U.S. Embassy in Beijing.

You will discover that the so-called massacre was in fact a mini civil war as irate Beijing citizens sought to stop initially unarmed soldiers sent to remove students who had been demonstrating freely in the square for weeks. When the soldiers finally reached the square there was no massacre. There were in fact almost no students. Mr. Clark's OpEd was originally published on the Japan Times:
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/eo20040915gc.html (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/eo20040915gc.html)
UPDATE:
Declassified document from the NSA backed up Clark's assertion the troops were initially unarmed:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB16/documents/09-02.htm (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB16/documents/09-02.htm)




posted by bobby fletcher at 4:32 PM (http://tiananmenmyth.blogspot.com/2006/04/on-pack-journalism_15.html) 0 comments (https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=26129276&postID=114514407734606381) http://www.blogger.com/img/icon18_edit_allbkg.gif (http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=26129276&postID=114514407734606381)

Friday, April 14, 2006

The Myth of Tiananmen Square Massacre


Most of us probably comfortably sat at home that night, watching the events unfold on TV. Very few people knew what really happened, as this event in America was spinned and twisted into the usual "hate-China" propaganda for mass comsumption.

However, our media made up for it recently. PBS aired a documentary titled The Tank Man.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tankman/ (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tankman/)

The Frontline segment presented the Chinese government's casualty figure of 250 dead. I don't know if you ever researched this, but this figure is actually in-line with our NSA estimate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989

The PBS documentary also dispelled the myth that students were "massacred" on TAM square grounds. If you haven't seen this you should. The documentary interviewed Journalists who were on the ground, as well as footages of thousands of students leaving the TAM square.

Actually, I have read this from another source years ago, from Columbia Univ. School of Journalism:

http://archives.cjr.org/year/98/5/tiananmen.asp

"as far as can be determined from the available evidence, no one died that night in Tiananmen Square.

A few people may have been killed by random shooting on streets near the square, but all verified eyewitness accounts say that the students who remained in the square when troops arrived were allowed to leave peacefully.

Hundreds of people, most of them workers and passersby, did die that night, but in a different place and under different circumstances."

[Just for reference, throwing molotov cocktail at riot police is a crime in US.]

And Jay Mathews’ intention is clear:

“Journalists have to be precise about where it happened and who were its victims, or readers and viewers will never be able to understand what it meant.”


posted by bobby fletcher at 3:46 PM (http://tiananmenmyth.blogspot.com/2006/04/myth-of-tiananmen-square-massacre.html) 12 comments (https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=26129276&postID=114505553528033550) http://www.blogger.com/img/icon18_edit_allbkg.gif (http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=26129276&postID=114505553528033550)

[TheMiddlePath]

Ha

Satisfaction Survey in China ?

For a country that does not allow free speech, its a interesting poll.




FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT:

Andrew Kohut, President
Richard Wike, Associate Director
Erin Carriere-Kretschmer, Senior Researcher
Juliana Menasce Horowitz, Research Associate
Kathleen Holzwart, Research Analyst
(202) 419-4350

www.pewglobal.org

[Ordie]

^^^^
How about a real poll through the ballot box.

[badguy2000]

The difference its that we elected a new president and congress to fix these problems.
yes, Germany elected Hitler and you yankees elected G.W.bush also.
a election can not solve all problem. Futhermore, it may bring mess and war on some occasion.
the perfect system in theory often become ugly in practice,such as election in Africa and India.
don't forget, communism also is perfect in theory,but how about the communism in practice?
can you assure that the election in CHina would not become as ugly as the election in Africa and India?

you seem to be a election-fundalmetalist.

[badguy2000]

Ha

Satisfaction Survey in China ?

For a country that does not allow free speech, its a interesting poll.
Am I speaking to you on website?

if you could read chinese and chat with CHina by msn ,ICQ or QQ, you would find how successful western people are brainwashed by CNN,BBC and so on.

[Ordie]

a election can not solve all problem. Futhermore, it may bring mess and war on some occasion.
the perfect system in theory often become ugly in practice,such as election in Africa and India.
don't forget, communism also is perfect in theory,but how about the communism in practice?
can you assure that the election in CHina would not become as ugly as the election in Africa and India?

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.
-Winston Churchill


you seem to be a election-fundalmetalist.

Yes I am.
I believe in democracy and democratic principles.

[Ordie]

The Myth of Tiananmen Square Massacre



Then May 13, 1969 was not a massacre where only less than 200 Chinese were killed.

[Adux]

Hitler and Bush in the same line, if that is not a flame bait and I dont know what is? Reported!

[Adux]

can you assure that the election in CHina would not become as ugly as the election in Africa and India?
.

Hello CCP bot,

Africa and India? lol, Really.
I wish I could qoute Col.Rikiye from Orbat.com here on the great chinese ego! lol

[TheMiddlePath]

Then May 13, 1969 was not a massacre where only less than 200 Chinese were killed.



And isnt it so sad when the defination of the word massacre is more important then almost 20 years of Western media lies on TAM.

Lies about Wen Ho Lee. Lies about TAM. Lies about the Tibet riots.

The truth is painful isnt it...Ordie ?

[Ordie]

The truth is painful isnt it...Ordie ?

Revisionist history is always painful for the victims.

Especially when it comes from Japanese textbooks referring to the events in 1937 Nanjing as "nothing like a holocaust".

[LineDoggie]

Ahh, thats right Nanking never happened

Just reactionary and deceitful media, I read it in a Japanese Blog, so it must be true.

WHAT REALLY HAPPENED AT NANKING: The Refutation of a Common Myth, by Tanaka Masaaki

http://tamezou.tripod.com/nanking/whatreally/

[TheMiddlePath]

Revisionist history is always painful for the victims.

Especially when it comes from Japanese textbooks referring to the events in 1937 Nanjing as "nothing like a holocaust".


China did not denial TAM. It correctly reported the number of death. The leaders TALKED with the protesters including Premier Zhao and his protegy Wen Jia Bao. The protesters threw petrol bombs at lightly armed PLA killing hundreds.

What do you do when a protester throw a petrol bomb at you in US ?

These evidences came also from your US Embassy. These are facts. The Canadian Embasador also agree. What more do you want me to say ?

There are also more then enought facts on Nanjing massacre from Japan own newspapers...Gosh Ordie. Have you finally flipped ?

[TheMiddlePath]

Ahh, thats right Nanking never happened

Just reactionary and deceitful media, I read it in a Japanese Blog, so it must be true.

WHAT REALLY HAPPENED AT NANKING: The Refutation of a Common Myth, by Tanaka Masaaki

http://tamezou.tripod.com/nanking/whatreally/


Oh no..... its Linedoggie again....Oh no..he is going to pray at the Yakusumi Shrine.....

[TORA]

The atrocities committed under the Imperial Japanese Army during the occupation of China and Korea between 1930's and 1945 are a fact, and must never be forgotten.

The responsability of such events must be addressed to the guilty, so a part of the military personell and guilty military/political leaders of the country during that period, not generalize the entire Japanese people wich more than 90% were just victims of that military regime.

You need also view how difficult to understand for the West the Japanese society during that time, a society based on the military (in a similar way of North Korea today, I would expect extreme fierce in battle by North Korean soldiers if a war will broke up) cult and the Bushido code, a 16th Century "way of life" based mainly on military values that teach to win or die in battle, never surrender, have no respect for the surrender that is just a coward and to serve as a warrior. So, a powerful 20th Century military force with Middle Ages way of conducts.
Extreme loyalty and shows of weakness wasn't absolutely accepted in that kind of military and even Japanese soldiers suffered such horrors, INDEED in very minor episodes than such large scale massacres. pay attention.
We need remember that the Japanese society in 40 years from a very close feudal military society without contacts with the rest of the world it transformed in a world industrial power. (1850/1890) Not a easy change...

What is trying do doing today the Chinese Communist Party and all their Party's followers are only for strategical purposes.
This very issue should only be resolved by the Chinese families that suffered such horrors and the Japanese government's personalities that have ties with the older leaders, not by a corrupted regime that acts ONLY for it's strategical interests and by not generalizing an intere people.

[Ordie]

armed PLA killing hundreds.

Therefore it was a massacre.

[matthew.manhorn]

I personally think Deng Xiaoping did the best he could to open China's market without disintegrating its territory. If the evil CCP were to suppress and slaughter the protesters they would've done so within the first few days. Keep in mind that the protest was no ordinary one, it lasted for MONTHS instead of several days, protesters were attacking policemen, blocking Beijing's traffic and stagnating the economy. I'm not an advocate for the CCP but the TAM protesters had gone too far and and the PLA had a more moderate approach, remember that China was a hardcore totalitarian state under Mao and no riot police existed during that time, the only solution to suppress the protesters was the military

Deng Xiaoping was a good man who reformed China's economy and preserved Hong Kong's freedom and democracy. He did what's best for his own country and it's sad to see those fanatical protestors defaming him as a tyrant.

[Kilgor]

China did not denial TAM. It correctly reported the number of death. The leaders TALKED with the protesters including Premier Zhao and his protegy Wen Jia Bao. The protesters threw petrol bombs at lightly armed PLA killing hundreds.

What do you do when a protester throw a petrol bomb at you in US ?

These evidences came also from your US Embassy. These are facts. The Canadian Embasador also agree. What more do you want me to say ?

There are also more then enought facts on Nanjing massacre from Japan own newspapers...Gosh Ordie. Have you finally flipped ?

Why do they censor any website relating to the massacre ?

[Connaught Ranger]

China did not denial TAM. It correctly reported the number of death. The leaders TALKED with the protesters including Premier Zhao and his protegy Wen Jia Bao. The protesters threw petrol bombs at lightly armed PLA killing hundreds.

What do you do when a protester throw a petrol bomb at you in US ?

These evidences came also from your US Embassy. These are facts. The Canadian Embasador also agree. What more do you want me to say ?

There are also more then enought facts on Nanjing massacre from Japan own newspapers...Gosh Ordie. Have you finally flipped ?

Lightly armed = pistol, petrol bomb has to be thrown so if the P.L.A. were not able to shoot the thrower at such a close range, it does not say much for their training :cantbeli:

Yeah the film of the State Funerals for the massacred P.L.A. Heroes was on TV for months. Who can forget such poignant scenes of national grief at their deaths. :roll:

[Adux]

The atrocities committed under the Imperial Japanese Army during the occupation of China and Korea between 1930's and 1945 are a fact, and must never be forgotten.

The responsability of such events must be addressed to the guilty, so a part of the military personell and guilty military/political leaders of the country during that period, not generalize the entire Japanese people wich more than 90% were just victims of that military regime.

You need also view how difficult to understand for the West the Japanese society during that time, a society based on the military (in a similar way of North Korea today, I would expect extreme fierce in battle by North Korean soldiers if a war will broke up) cult and the Bushido code, a 16th Century "way of life" based mainly on military values that teach to win or die in battle, never surrender, have no respect for the surrender that is just a coward and to serve as a warrior. So, a powerful 20th Century military force with Middle Ages way of conducts.
Extreme loyalty and shows of weakness wasn't absolutely accepted in that kind of military and even Japanese soldiers suffered such horrors, INDEED in very minor episodes than such large scale massacres. pay attention.
We need remember that the Japanese society in 40 years from a very close feudal military society without contacts with the rest of the world it transformed in a world industrial power. (1850/1890) Not a easy change...

What is trying do doing today the Chinese Communist Party and all their Party's followers are only for strategical purposes.
This very issue should only be resolved by the Chinese families that suffered such horrors and the Japanese government's personalities that have ties with the older leaders, not by a corrupted regime that acts ONLY for it's strategical interests and by not generalizing an intere people.

Kudos.
Now only if the Chinese were as civilized as you japanese, to accept the mistakes of your ancestors and government.:). I am impressed.