Israel 'plans settlement growth'

[Sanat-e-naft]

The Israeli government has plans to build at least 73,000 new homes for Jews in the occupied West Bank, the anti-settlement group Peace Now says.
If the plans are implemented in full it would double the number of settlers in the West Bank outside east Jerusalem, according to the Peace Now website.
Israeli officials said the plans referred to potential construction and only a small number had been approved.
Continued settlement work is seen as a major barrier to Palestinian statehood.
Correspondents say the information indicates Israel's next coalition government, currently in the process of being formed by Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu, has a wide choice of projects for settlement expansion.
If coalition negotiations force him into a strongly pro-settlement right-wing government, the plans could put him in collision course with the new US government, they add.
Freeze
The Palestinian Authority, which has been engaged in a revived negotiated process since November 2007, has warned Israel that it must choose between peace and settlements, but it cannot have both.

Successive Israel governments have paid lip-service to international agreements with the Palestinians to freeze settlement activity. However settlement population has grown rapidly, as the governments have refused to curb what they call "natural growth" of the settlements - growth within what Israel defines as the boundaries of established settlements.
Peace Now said in its report that there are plans for huge construction to double the size of some settlements including Beitar Illit, Ariel, Maale Adumim and Efrat settlements.
"The completion of these projects will make the plan of creating a Palestinian state next to Israel totally unrealistic," Peace Now head Yariv Oppenheimer said in a radio interview.
Housing ministry spokesman Eran Sidis insisted in an interview with the AFP news agency that the plans "refer only to potential construction" and "in practice only a very small part of these urbanism projects are implemented".
All Jewish settlements in the Palestinian territory are regarded as illegal under international law, although Israel disputes this.
More than 400,000 Jewish settlers live in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, areas which were captured by Israeli in the 1967 war.
The Obama administration has pledged to pursue Palestinian statehood swiftly in negotiations. It is yet to endorse the Bush administration position that Israel should keep hold of large settlement blocs in the occupied territories.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/7919050.stm

[Col.O'neill]

Sounds good to me :)

[eugenlitwin]

The Israeli government has plans to build at least 73,000 new homes for Jews in the occupied West Bank, the anti-settlement group Peace Now says.
If the plans are implemented in full it would double the number of settlers in the West Bank outside east Jerusalem, according to the Peace Now website.
Israeli officials said the plans referred to potential construction and only a small number had been approved.
Continued settlement work is seen as a major barrier to Palestinian statehood.
Correspondents say the information indicates Israel's next coalition government, currently in the process of being formed by Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu, has a wide choice of projects for settlement expansion.
If coalition negotiations force him into a strongly pro-settlement right-wing government, the plans could put him in collision course with the new US government, they add.
Freeze
The Palestinian Authority, which has been engaged in a revived negotiated process since November 2007, has warned Israel that it must choose between peace and settlements, but it cannot have both.

Successive Israel governments have paid lip-service to international agreements with the Palestinians to freeze settlement activity. However settlement population has grown rapidly, as the governments have refused to curb what they call "natural growth" of the settlements - growth within what Israel defines as the boundaries of established settlements.
Peace Now said in its report that there are plans for huge construction to double the size of some settlements including Beitar Illit, Ariel, Maale Adumim and Efrat settlements.
"The completion of these projects will make the plan of creating a Palestinian state next to Israel totally unrealistic," Peace Now head Yariv Oppenheimer said in a radio interview.
Housing ministry spokesman Eran Sidis insisted in an interview with the AFP news agency that the plans "refer only to potential construction" and "in practice only a very small part of these urbanism projects are implemented".
All Jewish settlements in the Palestinian territory are regarded as illegal under international law, although Israel disputes this.
More than 400,000 Jewish settlers live in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, areas which were captured by Israeli in the 1967 war.
The Obama administration has pledged to pursue Palestinian statehood swiftly in negotiations. It is yet to endorse the Bush administration position that Israel should keep hold of large settlement blocs in the occupied territories.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/7919050.stm

its sound more like a brutal joke to me, it´d start new global intifada. i don´t think/hope that this sort of madness can go ahead today, Benjamen Natanyahu has to approve this plan of Washington and as we all know Obama will not approve this plan, so...

PS good start Bennyrofl

[budgie]

Putting out the fire with gasoline, if you ask me.

[Ordie]

Why build more settlements if there are tons of empty homes and apartments in Jerusalem. Most of them owned by foreigners who never live there.

[kahn267]

One must be critical of who publishes this article - BBC, the most non-bias of all media towards Israel :cantbeli:

[kahn267]

Why build more settlements if there are tons of empty homes and apartments in Jerusalem. Most of them owned by foreigners who never live there.

Umm... where do you get this information?

[eugenlitwin]

One must be critical of who publishes this article - BBC, the most non-bias of all media towards Israel :cantbeli:

so you think that: Israel does t has plans to build a new homes for Jews in the West Bank?

[Adam Skaggs]

The settlements are the key reason that a two state solution will never work. They break up the west bank and control most of the aquifers and fertile land.... besides the fact that they break international law... sttlements should go

[NavyTimes]

The settlements are the key reason that a two state solution will never work. They break up the west bank and control most of the aquifers and fertile land.... besides the fact that they break international law... sttlements should go


Don't say that, the Israeli ambassador will condemning your antisemittism.

[Sanat-e-naft]

If this is in fact the new policy of the Israeli government, then I think the days of putting the blame for failure of peace on the shoulders of the Arabs is over. If this is done, it could go to show that Hamas and Hezbollah are right to an extent that "the 'Zionists' really are just there to steal all the land eventually." And all this talk of peace and international law is a smoke screen. I hope this news is false or never happens because it would be the nail in the coffin for any real peace process.

[Snoshi]

If this is in fact the new policy of the Israeli government, then I think the days of putting the blame for failure of peace on the shoulders of the Arabs is over. If this is done, it could go to show that Hamas and Hezbollah are right to an extent that "the 'Zionists' really are just there to steal all the land eventually." And all this talk of peace and international law is a smoke screen. I hope this news is false or never happens because it would be the nail in the coffin for any real peace process.

What are you talking about? Peace process is long dead..

[Sanat-e-naft]

What are you talking about? Peace process is long dead..


Well then, keep building. I'm sure it wont be a problem.

[RoyB]

The settlements are the key reason that a two state solution will never work. They break up the west bank and control most of the aquifers and fertile land.... besides the fact that they break international law... sttlements should go
Oh, so I guess that all the blowing buses and restaurants up thing is only a minor reason


Don't say that, the Israeli ambassador will condemning your antisemittism.
Be quiet, you anti-Semitist.

[eugenlitwin]

Don't say that, the Israeli ambassador will condemning your antisemittism.
roflroflrofl but http://www.nhc.no/php/ is much worse , bunch of antisemits

[eugenlitwin]

What are you talking about? Peace process is long dead..
so new you guys can a with good conscious take lands from Palestinians? or?

[Delay]

i just saw a map on wiki that shows the older settlements in the west bank. I dont believe it because it looks like bull. Can anyone post a update map of the westbank and the settlement locations.

[khukuri]

disgusting plans

[Mr.Flint]

so new you guys can a with good conscious take lands from Palestinians? or?
Its not taking land from Palestinians.
Merely building more houses within the territory of the "settlement".

Id imagine the furor if someone would say that Arabs cant build more houses because it hurts the peace process...


The settlements are the key reason that a two state solution will never work.
No the key reason to why it wont work because a) there is a need in a 3 state solution
b) Pali terrorism.



They break up the west bank and control most of the aquifers and fertile land....
But no one cares, that the 2 state solution is not only breaks up Israel, and passes control of key aquifers to hostile elements, but also calls for ethnic cleansing.



besides the fact that they break international law...
Disputed.



sttlements should go
Yeah, those pesky joooz should go! make way for the glorious nation of Palis! Arab land for Arabs only!

Doesnt it makes one wonder, how, demanding Jews to go is ok, about saying Arabs should go, is racism....


If this is in fact the new policy of the Israeli government, then I think the days of putting the blame for failure of peace on the shoulders of the Arabs is over.
Not really. All the frezees over building, even the Gaza cleansing, did nothing. Arabs continued to reject peace.



If this is done, it could go to show that Hamas and Hezbollah are right to an extent that "the 'Zionists' really are just there to steal all the land eventually."
And all this talk of peace and international law is a smoke screen. I hope this news is false or never happens because it would be the nail in the coffin for any real peace process.
The peace process died, first when Arafat began the double talk, of peace yet still indulging in terrorism, then it died when he refused the deal in Camp David and called for an intifada, then it died when Hamas was elected, then it died when the Gaza cleansing saw not quiet but even more attacks.

[Sanat-e-naft]

Flint, is this expansion just within the already set boundaries of where the settlements already exist, or did i read your post wrong? If so, how do you know? because that changes things.

[eugenlitwin]

Its not taking land from Palestinians.
Merely building more houses within the territory of the "settlement".

Id imagine the furor if someone would say that Arabs cant build more houses because it hurts the peace process...

No the key reason to why it wont work because a) there is a need in a 3 state solution
b) Pali terrorism.


But no one cares, that the 2 state solution is not only breaks up Israel, and passes control of key aquifers to hostile elements, but also calls for ethnic cleansing.


Disputed.

Yeah, those pesky joooz should go! make way for the glorious nation of Palis! Arab land for Arabs only!

Doesnt it makes one wonder, how, demanding Jews to go is ok, about saying Arabs should go, is racism....


Not really. All the frezees over building, even the Gaza cleansing, did nothing. Arabs continued to reject peace.



The peace process died, first when Arafat began the double talk, of peace yet still indulging in terrorism, then it died when he refused the deal in Camp David and called for an intifada, then it died when Hamas was elected, then it died when the Gaza cleansing saw not quiet but even more attacks.

1 you forgot to tape one word occupied

2 Palestinians , Swedes, Germans, and you guys as well can build what they what inside own lands

[Snoshi]

How is West Bank occupied and from who? Jordan?

[Sanat-e-naft]

How is West Bank occupied and from who? Jordan?


HAHA, well played sir.

[eugenlitwin]

How is West Bank occupied and from who? Jordan?

oh man not again this song, ask UN instead

[UoUo]

The settlements are the key reason that a two state solution will never work. They break up the west bank and control most of the aquifers and fertile land.... besides the fact that they break international law... sttlements should go

So let me understand it, arabs can live inside Israel but Jewish people can't live in the west bank, right?

[Eye]

Maybe they just like when something interesting is going on? Without doubt, there will be a lot new, absorbing events after they make their plans real.

[Mr.Flint]

Flint, is this expansion just within the already set boundaries of where the settlements already exist, or did i read your post wrong? If so, how do you know? because that changes things.
Yes.
Because unlike the common belief, a settlement is not a square of land tightly packed with houses. They range from your typical neighborhood, to a small city, that means not all of the space is utilized for houses, some of it is unused, some used for parks, parking lots etc.

How do i know? if it was expansion of land holdings by the "settlements" PieceNow would cry about the evil government stealing Pali land.
Most of articles on the topic actually stress, that all of the plans, both the approved minority and the unapproved majority are within the current land jurisdiction of the "settlements".
The vast majority of the plans, are actually studies on maximum building density of the sites.

[Eye]

So let me understand it, arabs can live inside Israel but Jewish people can't live in the west bank, right?
But they can't do what they want and they can't build houses without local authorities permission.

[Sanat-e-naft]

Yes.
Because unlike the common belief, a settlement is not a square of land tightly packed with houses. They range from your typical neighborhood, to a small city, that means not all of the space is utilized for houses, some of it is unused, some used for parks, parking lots etc.

How do i know? if it was expansion of land holdings by the "settlements" PieceNow would cry about the evil government stealing Pali land.
Most of articles on the topic actually stress, that all of the plans, both the approved minority and the unapproved majority are within the current land jurisdiction of the "settlements".
The vast majority of the plans, are actually studies on maximum building density of the sites.

Hey thanks for the answer amigo, upon looking at it further I agree that your understanding of it is correct. So this is not important, because no sane person thought he was gonna get anything (and most importantly land so close to Jerusalem) back from the "joos". ;-) In much the same way right of return is a joke.

[Mr.Flint]

But they can't do what they want and they can't build houses without local authorities permission.
Arabs do all that. And everytime someone tries to apply the rule of law to them, there is an international outcry over this "racist" action that violates the "dignity" and "birthrights" of those arabs...

[Kaplanr]

i just saw a map on wiki that shows the older settlements in the west bank. I dont believe it because it looks like bull. Can anyone post a update map of the westbank and the settlement locations.

Here are two maps, one is a 2005 map from the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - Occupied Palestinian Territory and the other is from B'Tselem, the Israeli human rights (so they say) group. Neither one portrays the sinister Zionist land grab you seem to think exists. Since I can't host a PDF on photobucket, you'll need to go the sites yourself.

The UN map.
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/Reference_opt_CAP2006.pdf

The B'Tselem map.
http://www.btselem.org/Download/Settlements_Map_Eng.pdf

[Eye]

Arabs do all that. And everytime someone tries to apply the rule of law to them, there is an international outcry over this "racist" action that violates the "dignity" and "birthrights" of those arabs...
They build houses without permission? I'm surprised it's possible in Israel. If I built here house without permission, I would have to dismantle it or/and pay quite big fine, but I live in police state :roll:

[Mr.Flint]

They build houses without permission? I'm surprised it's possible in Israel. If I built here house without permission, I would have to dismantle it or/and pay quite big fine, but I live in police state :roll:
Possible only for Arabs, since preventing them from doing that, is a "violation" of their "rights".
Other Israelis would be fined for doing that, and the building would be dismantled.

[Delay]

Here are two maps, one is a 2005 map from the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - Occupied Palestinian Territory and the other is from B'Tselem, the Israeli human rights (so they say) group. Neither one portrays the sinister Zionist land grab you seem to think exists. Since I can't host a PDF on photobucket, you'll need to go the sites yourself.

The UN map.
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/Reference_opt_CAP2006.pdf

The B'Tselem map.
http://www.btselem.org/Download/Settlements_Map_Eng.pdf

maps older than the ones posed on wiki and a accusation? thanks?

[UoUo]

But they can't do what they want and they can't build houses without local authorities permission.

Yes beacuse there is local authorities and in the west bank there isn't.
right now the juice in the west bank under Israeli law.

[UoUo]

They build houses without permission? I'm surprised it's possible in Israel. If I built here house without permission, I would have to dismantle it or/and pay quite big fine, but I live in police state :roll:

Me also, but that does not happen in the arab cities.

[Ordie]

I'm starting to believe that its the Israelis never miss and opportunity to miss an opportunity when it comes to settlements.

[RoyB]

What opportunity? you are all talking like it was already rapped up and on our desk, ready to be signed.

[Ordie]

What opportunity? you are all talking like it was already rapped up and on our desk, ready to be signed.

Whenever there's a coalition being formed with minor parties, there are usually 'more settlements' concessions involved.

[Flamming_Python]

They build houses without permission? I'm surprised it's possible in Israel. If I built here house without permission, I would have to dismantle it or/and pay quite big fine, but I live in police state :roll:

I think the issue is that building permission is granted for Arab requests a lot less often than for Jewish requests. Can any Israelis here clarify this issue, if there is one?

Anyway building more settlements is the wrong move; it creates ethnic enclave and a potential for a future tug of war between Israelis and Palestinians over the West Bank borders; like what happened in Bosnia in the 90's. If settlements are to be built; they should be populated by both Jews and Arabs. If police enforcement is necessary is the short-term, so be it, but in the long-run joint settlements will encourage greater understanding and peace between the 2 groups.

[eugenlitwin]

So let me understand it, arabs can live inside Israel but Jewish people can't live in the west bank, right?

as Palestinians citizens or guests yes, they can

[Ordie]

as Palestinians citizens or guests yes, they can

It's more of a real estate issue.

It's akin to the government taking your land through eminent domain or condemnation for public housing, highways or public buildings.

Except you are not entitled to any of it.

[Kaplanr]

as Palestinians citizens or guests yes, they can

Better go back and re-read the PA's historic bargaining postions. They may be intimating that now, but on paper whatever "Palestine" was going to be, it was going to be Juderein, much as Jordan has always been.


maps older than the ones posed on wiki and a accusation? thanks?
Mea Culpa. I interpreted your "bull" comment as "they're lying, the settlement footprint has to be bigger." As for map ages, 2005 is pretty good for official cartography. Peace Now had some maps on their site but they were too high-tech and un-navigable to be read.

[eugenlitwin]

Better go back and re-read the PA's historic bargaining postions. They may be intimating that now, but on paper whatever "Palestine" was going to be, it was going to be Juderein, much as Jordan has always been.

whats about you guys? 4 some years ago: Poles, Russians, Belarusians, Greeks, etc. (at least by citizenship) today Israeli people.

[timetraveller]

One must be critical of who publishes this article - BBC, the most non-bias of all media towards Israel :cantbeli:

Im fed up with the bbc bashing ....

[alexz]

as Palestinians citizens or guests yes, they can

Are you aware of the term lynch mob? Any Israeli Jew that will move to a Palestinian town in the W. Bank or Gaza will not survive 10 minutes. Even Israeli busnissman that went to buy supplies in the W. Bank were taken outside of the restuarant they were in when their suppliers, and executed in public.

[eugenlitwin]

Are you aware of the term lynch mob? Any Israeli Jew that will move to a Palestinian town in the W. Bank or Gaza will not survive 10 minutes. Even Israeli busnissman that went to buy supplies in the W. Bank were taken outside of the restuarant they were in when their suppliers, and executed in public.

Palestinians see all Jews today in the same way as you have seen all Germans in 1944... all people the same! Palestinians want to have the same quality of life as you have, they want to live in own state, write own laws, travel, etc...

[Delay]

Mea Culpa. I interpreted your "bull" comment as "they're lying, the settlement footprint has to be bigger." As for map ages, 2005 is pretty good for official cartography. Peace Now had some maps on their site but they were too high-tech and un-navigable to be read.

no worries. Although i used to be pretty sympathetic to Palestinians. After watching the pallywood docs. I no longer believe the bullsh!t. Heres a link if your interested in the Docs.

http://ipb.quicksilverscreen.com/index.php?showtopic=118420

[Ordie]

^^^^
I don't know.
Given that the West Bank was relatively quiet during the Gaza offensive speaks volumes.

Adding settlements only adds fuel to the fire.

[Moledet]

Palestinians see all Jews today in the same way as you have seen all Germans in 1944... all people the same! Palestinians want to have the same quality of life as you have, they want to live in own state, write own laws, travel, etc...
They can have all that in Jordan.

There's no peace process and there never was, the only long-term solution is transfer by will and it's time the international community support it.

[alexz]

Palestinians see all Jews today in the same way as you have seen all Germans in 1944... all people the same! Palestinians want to have the same quality of life as you have, they want to live in own state, write own laws, travel, etc...

This according to you or according to the Palestinians?
Perhaps you should look at the charter of the elected Paelstinian government and find where it is that they want to live in peace, recognize Israel and please for the first and last time, DO NOT COMPARE ISRAEL WITH NAZI GERMANY.

[RoyB]

Palestinians see all Jews today in the same way as you have seen all Germans in 1944... all people the same! Palestinians want to have the same quality of life as you have, they want to live in own state, write own laws, travel, etc...
Yeah yeah, are you their official spokesman?


^^^^
I don't know.
Given that the West Bank was relatively quiet during the Gaza offensive speaks volumes.

Adding settlements only adds fuel to the fire.
The only reason it was quite is because Fatah(who controls the West Bank) didn't want any rallies for Hamas etc..

[little icebear]

Yeah yeah, are you their official spokesman?


Íf you ask me, one of the main problems is in fact, that they don´t have a official spokesman that deserves this title and a government that actually works.

[eugenlitwin]

They can have all that in Jordan.

There's no peace process and there never was, the only long-term solution is transfer by will and it's time the international community support it.

so the final solution is deportation? you surprised me...:-(

[Hollis]

so the final solution is deportation? you surprised me...:-(


Don't you get tired of playing the nazi card?

[afgsupra]

Oh, so I guess that all the blowing buses and restaurants up thing is only a minor reason


Be quiet, you anti-Semitist.

oh man, massive lolz

[Mr.Flint]

I think the issue is that building permission is granted for Arab requests a lot less often than for Jewish requests. Can any Israelis here clarify this issue, if there is one?
A myth actually, the reality is quite different.
Arab illegal construction is encouraged by their leaders, the same ones who encourage boycotts of Israeli institutions, which in turn leads not only to a complete ignorance of the law, but also to the procedure of getting the permission, which leads to rejection.

you might find this study intersting
http://www.jcpa.org/jlmbldg.htm


Or an example
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1068204.html

result? an international outcry, for "violation" of Arab "rights".....

[RoyB]

Íf you ask me, one of the main problems is in fact, that they don´t have a official spokesman that deserves this title and a government that actually works.
Well, they don't have a unity, that's true.. and its hurting them.

[Kaplanr]

Palestinians see all Jews today in the same way as you have seen all Germans in 1944... all people the same! Palestinians want to have the same quality of life as you have, they want to live in own state, write own laws, travel, etc...

So when given the opportunities after Oslo, they didn't, and when Israel left Gaza, they somehow translated what you wrote here so wistfully as build and launch indiscriminate rockets on Israel.

In the last 20 years they undid all the gains they had made (yes it was under an occupation, that's historic misfortune for them,) up until Intifada I. Even then it wasn't a lost cause, Intifada II did that - even the Israeli left won't normalize relations anymore. Unlike Arafat, I'll give Hamas credit, they show their cards and don't hide behind the smiles and handshakes of diplomatic legitimacy like Yasser the Crook.

[Eye]

It's insoluble conflict. Palestinians want to regain their land and Israelis don't want do lose their land. Unfortunately it's exactly the same land.
Only total victory of one side could end this conflict.

[Ordie]

It's insoluble conflict. Palestinians want to regain their land and Israelis don't want do lose their land. Unfortunately it's exactly the same land.
Only total victory of one side could end this conflict.

Ironically much of the land around Jerusalem, including the Knessit, is owned by the Greek Orthodox Partiarch of Jerusalem.

[trondjac]

They can have all that in Jordan.

There's no peace process and there never was, the only long-term solution is transfer by will and it's time the international community support it.

Just a question, would you like to see all Palestinians disappear? What would you make of their land?

[RoyB]

Just a question, would you like to see all Palestinians disappear? What would you make of their land?
A public pool, where I can just chill and lay down on my beach chair and catch sun.
Do you really expect an answer? and where did he say that he wants them to just 'disappear'?

[Moledet]

Just a question, would you like to see all Palestinians disappear? What would you make of their land?
I don't want the Arabs to disappear, I want them to move to a place where they will have security, work, education, etc... and we will pay them to move just like we paid the Jewish residence of Gaza.

We will build new modern cities. Jenin will be called Ganim, Ramallah will be renamed Ramat-El and so on...

[Ordie]

I don't want the Arabs to disappear, I want them to move to a place where they will have security, work, education, etc... and we will pay them to move just like we paid the Jewish residence of Gaza...

But what if they don't want to move?

[User_Name]

I don't want the Arabs to disappear, I want them to move to a place where they will have security, work, education, etc... and we will pay them to move just like we paid the Jewish residence of Gaza.
We will build new modern cities. Jenin will be called Ganim, Ramallah will be renamed Ramat-El and so on...

Somebody do not see a huge difference between jewish settlers in Gaza and palestinians, this land is not yours. And jewish settlements in Gaza were as illegal as the settlements in the the West Bank are.
Wanna peace, go out there. If not, so live with consequences.

[Snoshi]

Somebody do not see a huge difference between jewish settlers in Gaza and palestinians, this land is not yours. And jewish settlements in Gaza were as illegal as the settlements in the the West Bank are.
Wanna peace, go out there. If not, so live with consequences.

So who does West Bank belong too? Jordan?

[User_Name]

So who does West Bank belong too? Jordan?
:cantbeli:Sure my friend.
Dont play dumb! Its palestinian land, there is nothing to add.

[Snoshi]

:cantbeli:Sure my friend.
Dont play dumb! Its palestinian land, there is nothing to add.

Since when.. The proposal was rejected in 1948.. And in 1967 IDF took it from Jordan who annexed it..

[Moledet]

Somebody do not see a huge difference between jewish settlers in Gaza and palestinians, this land is not yours. And jewish settlements in Gaza were as illegal as the settlements in the the West Bank are.
Wanna peace, go out there. If not, so live with consequences.
I do see a huge difference, the Jewish settlers paid money for the land while the Arabs didn't. They were very legal and were all built in accordance with the Israeli law.

I don't understand how you can say the land isn't ours. Apart of very few Arabs that lived there when the Ottomans ruled, I never saw any ownership papers. It's because they are refugees, they don't have land hence the term refugees.

We tried removing settlements, it doesn't work and actually make things a lot worse (more and better weapons, more rockets and deeper into Israeli land, more radical citizens, more terrorists training camps, etc...). See case study Gaza strip.

Ordie, they do. Those who can pack their bags and leave, majority are less fortunate and need assistance.

[tanks_alot]

I do see a huge difference, the Jewish settlers paid money for the land while the Arabs didn't. They were very legal and were all built in accordance with the Israeli law.

I don't understand how you can say the land isn't ours. Apart of very few Arabs that lived there when the Ottomans ruled, I never saw any ownership papers. It's because they are refugees, they don't have land hence the term refugees.

We tried removing settlements, it doesn't work and actually make things a lot worse (more and better weapons, more rockets and deeper into Israeli land, more radical citizens, more terrorists training camps, etc...). See case study Gaza strip.

Ordie, they do. Those who can pack their bags and leave, majority are less fortunate and need assistance.

You're living in denial... no Israeli government will ever try to implement it and whatever body rules the Palestinian, will kill any Palestinin that will agree to take money and leave, like they already kill now Palestinians that sell land to Jews, as Arafat ordered many years ago.

This conflict has no end game at the moment, either the Palestinians wipe us out, which they can't, or we wipe them out, but we won't.

Maybe if we'll completly re-occupy the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, rebuild their infrastructure from scrap, create a sane educational system etc', then maybe in another generation we will be able to find a peace partner on the Palestinian side.

However, that train has already left the station a while ago and this conflict is a little bigger then just Israel and the Palestinians, the road for resolving this conflict, has passed through many Arab countries along the decades, and now is being cynically used by Syria and Iran for their own interests, just like thier predecessors.

As for the West Bank itself, assuming we will ever have a partner on the Palestinian side, a good compromise is a land swap which will allow Israel to keep the main settlement block near the border in exchange for other land.

[LRPV]

Alternatively the terms originally accepted by Israel and refused by the Arabs could be enforced. I once thought the so-called two-State solution was viable, but as indicated by others, the Palestinian State already exists, this State was created and named Jordan. What this new two-State solution proposes is another land-for-peace deal. Remember Gush Katif....

[Kaplanr]

Alternatively the terms originally accepted by Israel and refused by the Arabs could be enforced. I once thought the so-called two-State solution was viable, but as indicated by others, the Palestinian State already exists, this State was created and named Jordan. What this new two-State solution proposes is another land-for-peace deal. Remember Gush Katif....

Not that I don't agree with you, but you're contradicting yourself with your opening sentence. The "terms originally accepted" would give Israel a mere shadow of what she was before the 6 Day War.

I too think the 2 state solution's day has come and gone, and the best option for the Palestinians is federation with Jordan. Maybe in 10 year's time the WB (with adjustment for most of the Israeli areas) becomes a demilitarized province of the Hashemite Kingdom. Hell, change the name to the Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine. Problem is, the Hashemites aren't Palestinians; the settlers from the Hejaz.

[Hollis]

Not that I don't agree with you, but you're contradicting yourself with your opening sentence. The "terms originally accepted" would give Israel a mere shadow of what she was before the 6 Day War.

I too think the 2 state solution's day has come and gone, and the best option for the Palestinians is federation with Jordan. Maybe in 10 year's time the WB (with adjustment for most of the Israeli areas) becomes a demilitarized province of the Hashemite Kingdom. Hell, change the name to the Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine. Problem is, the Hashemites aren't Palestinians; the settlers from the Hejaz.


Curious, would the West Bank go with Jordan and the Gaza with Egypt in your scenario?

I admire King Abdullah, but I don't think he would want them, nor does Egypt. The PLO/PA have not been good guest to countries who have hosted them.

[Kaplanr]

In my mind (addled as it may be,) Gaza and the WB are part and parcel of the same polity or entity. It won't do them or Israel any good if they're seconded to Egypt. There's no economic, educational or ethnic continuity; Jordan is over 50% Palestinian and the clan and family relationships still exist cross-border. Gaza as Egypt was always an accident of borders and truce conditions.

[Mackie]

then maybe in another generation we will be able to find a peace partner on the Palestinian side.

IIRC one of the best chances for peace was murdered in 1995. But not by a Palestinian or Arab.

[Mr.Flint]

IIRC one of the best chances for peace was murdered in 1995. But not by a Palestinian or Arab.
Yes lets ignore the massive wave of terrorism that came as a response to that "chance for peace".

[RoyB]

IIRC one of the best chances for peace was murdered in 1995. But not by a Palestinian or Arab.
Despite what might have happened, there was still a long way to go, don't fool yourself.

[apadana]

They can have all that in Jordan.

There's no peace process and there never was, the only long-term solution is transfer by will and it's time the international community support it.

On one hand you guys accuse the Palestinians as wanting to drive the Israeli into the ocean and on the other hand you want to drive them into Jordan. What’s the difference between the two ideology’s?
I am beginning to see why there will never be peace in that part of the world. It’s mainly because both sides don’t want peace. There is equal blame on both sides.

[Moledet]

On one hand you guys accuse the Palestinians as wanting to drive the Israeli into the ocean and on the other hand you want to drive them into Jordan. What’s the difference between the two ideology’s?
I am beginning to see why there will never be peace in that part of the world. It’s mainly because both sides don’t want peace. There is equal blame on both sides.
You know we can't live in the ocean, we aren't fish. This metaphor means that they want a mass extermination of the Jews in Israel.
Moving the Arabs to Jordan is exactly like moving settlers to pre-67 Israel.

[little icebear]

What’s the difference between the two ideology’s?


There is none. Extremists are always Assholes. No matter if they´re Israeli or Palestinians.

Only problem is - while there are sane people who could promote a positive agenda on the Israeli side, there is nobody to deal with on the Palestinians side...

By the way - there is no need for a special font...

[GiladS]

On one hand you guys accuse the Palestinians as wanting to drive the Israeli into the ocean and on the other hand you want to drive them into Jordan. What’s the difference between the two ideology’s?
I am beginning to see why there will never be peace in that part of the world. It’s mainly because both sides don’t want peace. There is equal blame on both sides.

Transfer by will isn't genocidal...

[alexz]

IIRC one of the best chances for peace was murdered in 1995. But not by a Palestinian or Arab.

If peace was dependent on one single man then there is no wonder it dissappeared as soon as he was. Just because he is the "Jesus" of the israeli secular left, doesn't mean he himself shared the ideas.

Can anyone show me were in the Oslo agreement it says Israel can built new settelments?