South Africa - Genitals removed while men are alive

[R/cst]

Genitals removed while men are alive

By Kanina Foss

Young men are attacked and their genitals cut off while they are still alive; children's throats are slit and their organs removed; and border-crossers are caught with bags containing human heads and ****** organs.

These stories and more are contained in a horror report on the trafficking of human body parts in Mozambique and South Africa, which has unveiled a scary reality: body parts are frequently used in traditional medicine and there is a commonly held belief that such medicine is very powerful.

"Ritual killings are common here; it's like daily bread. We do not even get shocked when a person is found dead with body parts removed," said one of the South Africans interviewed.

'There is no law that prohibits us from going around with a human finger'Last year, 413 Mozambicans and South Africans attended open workshops and 139 went on to be interviewed. Twenty-two percent of interviewees had first-hand experience of seeing a mutilated body or separate body parts.

Furthermore, researchers could not find a single case in which someone caught carrying a body part had been prosecuted.

According to the Mozambican Human Rights League (LDH), which initiated the research, this is because there is no legislation - local or international - that criminalises the carrying of a body part without evidence linking the suspect to the actual murder.

"We need more legislation. There is no law that prohibits us from going around with a human finger. The law is against cutting it, but not carrying it," said LDH chairman Alice Mabota.

A total of 93 percent of the interviewees believed medicine containing body parts was more powerful.

From the belt hung the fingers and *****es of childrenOne of the researchers, Matshidisho Ntsiuoa, from Child Welfare in Bloemfontein, said she had spoken to a woman who had gone to a sangoma for help to fall pregnant. The sangoma gave her a belt to wear. From the belt hung the fingers and *****es of children.

Although the woman felt uncomfortable about the belt, she wore it. She paid R4 000 for the consultation.

Most of the medicine is aimed at making businesses more successful, and the researchers are worried that with the Fifa World Cup approaching, body parts will be in higher demand as people try to capitalise on increased business opportunities.

One of the aims of the report is to make it easier for people to talk about what's happening. The interviewees were afraid to be identified and said they'd be killed if anyone found out.

Traditional healers who attended Tuesday's release of the report said they wanted to distance themselves from such "wrongdoings", and were worried that people needing help were not approaching them because they'd heard stories about the use of body parts.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=68&art_id=vn20090304050556725C827345

[mhk]

Disgusting,sick people there.

[Jacobisahottie]

Africa was better off under White rule.

[playtym]

Stop being so racist. Just because their culture is different to yours doesn't mean it's wrong. p-)

[domokun]

Nothing new in Africa either. Same old, same old.

[Holycrusader]

Africa was better off under White rule.

Are you really that stupid that you think that things like that do not happen in time "under White rule"?

[R/cst]

Better education is the key to changing these cultural practices

[zema_06]

Better education is the key to changing these cultural practices

but with the actual situation will there be a better education?

[Difool]

Better education is the key to changing these cultural practices
Maybe education means that western moral is tought? You cannot say that the western ethical standards are superior to the african ones. One could say that this is racism.

[BLUE THOR]

when I was in Tanzania recently I was told about the Albino kids getting nabbed and cut up for obscure medicines. I bit one, he tasted like aspirin.

but in all honesty,similar to the kid eating culture, theres a massive trade in dead vultures in Southern Africa, where the local culture states consuming a vultures brain and heart makes you soar like a vulture and see into the future. oooooooookkkkkkkkk, crazy kids. :|
shame that they poison the carcasses of dead animals, thereby killing 100's of vultures, in order to obtain a couple of poisoned vulture carcasses, then consume them....
I like clever people. they make sense. :cantbeli:
these Africans seem to go the long way around killing themselves and their environment. whatever happened to going nuts with a bunch of your mates an a few AK's?? seems to work up north.

some other bloke said education is the key. and he's nailed it. if they realised how bloody stupid they are they'd either stop or be id put them under a tree with a rope and a wobbly chair- do the world a favour.p-)

[jimmyboots]

Maybe education means that western moral is tought? You cannot say that the western ethical standards are superior to the african ones. One could say that this is racism.

Anything that keeps people from cutting off each others balls or eating albinos would be superior to whats going on over there now. Jeez.

[Cornerstone]

Thats crazy, damn witchdoctors

[stef063]

Africa was better off under White rule.

Google "Congo Free State" (among other exemples). Different color skin, same brutality

[AgentX]

That's so fvcked-up. :cantbeli:

[stifttagon]

Africa was better off under White rule.


White rulers had enough time to prevent such sick rituals. They were hardly integrated into a modern society, there is no wonder why they behave like living in Stone Age.

[R/cst]

Maybe education means that western moral is tought? You cannot say that the western ethical standards are superior to the african ones. One could say that this is racism.

I am not saying that and I reckon that you are trolling :bash:

Our local healers condem these practices


Traditional healers who attended Tuesday's release of the report said they wanted to distance themselves from such "wrongdoings", and were worried that people needing help were not approaching them because they'd heard stories about the use of body parts.


So do you agree with this practise??

[R/cst]

According to local lore
MUTI AND THE BODY

Severed hands: buried under the door of a shop or business these would bring customers to the premises, making the owner wealthy
Breasts: widely regarded in African traditional culture as the source of “mother luck”, which would be used in magic potions to bring good fortune
Genitals: both male and female are in demand, used by sangomas to boost virility in men and fertility in women
Adam’s apple: would be used to silence a witness who was intending to testify against a sangoma’s client in court
Skull: used to protect members of one tribe from another by burying the enemy victim’s head in the tribe’s village
Eyes: supposed to confer far-sightedness
Tongue: used to smooth the path to a girl’s heart for a prospective lover
Body fat: usually taken from the stomach, the fat is regarded by some people, especially the Venda, as the source of a good harvest
Sperm and urine: also widely seen as a source of good luck
Atlas bone: regarded as powerful muti because of the belief that the circulatory and nervous systems run through it
Brains: would help to confer intelligence

[R/cst]

Villagers in fear of occult killers who deal in flesh

The man who hacked off nine-year-old Fortune Khumalo's genitals struck as the youngster relieved himself in bushes. Using a machete, the attacker sliced off Fortune's ***** and ********s, to sell the body parts to the lucrative traditional medicine - muti- market.

Fortune had become a victim of a crime of the occult that has rocketed in recent years to supply a booming trade in human body parts. He survived the attack but most victims do not and the Government estimates that there could be more than 300 muti murders a year. “The killings are driven by greed,” said Thomas Khumalo, Fortune's father. “People believe using human body parts in medicine can make them rich.”

Fortune's assailant was caught with the genitals wrapped in a towel in his pocket. He planned to sell them to a traditional healer in Johannesburg, where body parts are worth up to £250, and a human head can go for as much as £500.

Fortune is now in constant pain because his family cannot afford the reconstructive surgery he needs.

According to Special Superintendent Gerard Labuschagne, an expert on ritual killings, rogue traditional healers, known as sangomas, are behind the muti murders, prescribing body parts to patients and then hiring men to carry out the killings. Belief in the power of sangomas runs deep and many black South Africans visit them for anything from health matters to spiritual guidance.

Human genitals are the most prized parts and can be used to attract wealth and increase fertility. Children's body parts are believed to be the most potent. They are cooked and ground down, to be used with herbs and other ingredients. Sometimes parts are used whole - it is believed that if a human arm is waved around each morning in commercial premises it will draw customers.

Most muti murders have been concentrated in the poor rural province of Limpopo, in the north of the country, but recently the phenomenon has been spreading. In the town of Bizana, in Eastern Cape province, 18 people were murdered by a muti gang in nine months. Police arrested 14 men, but locals believe the sangomas behind the attacks were never caught. Vigilante groups now patrol the area at night.

“People are really scared. Even with a police presence here, the killings continued so we decided we had to act to protect ourselves,” said Bongani Danga, the head of the vigilantes. The group has set up a night-time curfew and anyone breaking it is stopped and searched for machetes and hammers, the instruments used in attacks.

The Yalo family were the last victims; a number of men had been arrested and 17-year-old Anelisa thought the area was safe. But after spending the night at a friend's house she returned home to find the butchered body of her two sisters and her father.

“There was blood everywhere,” she said. “They had taken my sisters' breasts and genitals.” Victims are often tortured as they are killed as sangomas believe that the muti is more powerful if the person is alive and in pain when their parts are taken.

Many muti murders are not reported, through fear. Even when they are, they are not always investigated properly. “An investigative officer tasked to deal with this might be a bit hesitant because of his own traditional beliefs,” said Superintendent Labuschagne, who visited Britain seven years ago to help to investigate the still-unsolved mystery of “Adam”, the torso of a boy found in the Thames.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article4958549.ece

[muttbutt]

Maybe education means that western moral is tought? You cannot say that the western ethical standards are superior to the african ones. One could say that this is racism.
They are cutting peoples nut's off...........:roll:, I always thought it was one of those universal morals that 9 year old kids didn't have to worry about getting an unwanted castration....but what do I know.:cantbeli:

[zema_06]

According to local lore
MUTI AND THE BODY

Severed hands: buried under the door of a shop or business these would bring customers to the premises, making the owner wealthy
Breasts: widely regarded in African traditional culture as the source of “mother luck”, which would be used in magic potions to bring good fortune
Genitals: both male and female are in demand, used by sangomas to boost virility in men and fertility in women
Adam’s apple: would be used to silence a witness who was intending to testify against a sangoma’s client in court
Skull: used to protect members of one tribe from another by burying the enemy victim’s head in the tribe’s village
Eyes: supposed to confer far-sightedness
Tongue: used to smooth the path to a girl’s heart for a prospective lover
Body fat: usually taken from the stomach, the fat is regarded by some people, especially the Venda, as the source of a good harvest
Sperm and urine: also widely seen as a source of good luck
Atlas bone: regarded as powerful muti because of the belief that the circulatory and nervous systems run through it
Brains: would help to confer intelligence



it's completely insane...

[Burntrubber87]

Savages, reminds me of the soldiers in somalia who were burned and dragged through the street. Same thing in Fallujah to the contractors. What seperates people like this from animals?

[zema_06]

What seperates people like this from animals?

only a thin line, which in most cases isn't defined...

[Burntrubber87]

only a thin line, which in most cases isn't defined...
Well stated. Anything would be better than the wild-west militias running around over there..and then there is this activity.

[zema_06]

but i think it's a mistake to relegate this types of violence or violence in general to developing and underdeveloped countries, look at what happenend in the balkans, which where classified as "civilised".

[2Sheds_Jackson]

According to local lore

MUTI AND THE BODY

Severed hands: buried under the door of a shop or business these would bring customers to the premises, making the owner wealthy
Breasts: widely regarded in African traditional culture as the source of “mother luck”, which would be used in magic potions to bring good fortune
Genitals: both male and female are in demand, used by sangomas to boost virility in men and fertility in women
Adam’s apple: would be used to silence a witness who was intending to testify against a sangoma’s client in court
Skull: used to protect members of one tribe from another by burying the enemy victim’s head in the tribe’s village
Eyes: supposed to confer far-sightedness
Tongue: used to smooth the path to a girl’s heart for a prospective lover
Body fat: usually taken from the stomach, the fat is regarded by some people, especially the Venda, as the source of a good harvest
Sperm and urine: also widely seen as a source of good luck
Atlas bone: regarded as powerful muti because of the belief that the circulatory and nervous systems run through it
Brains: would help to confer intelligence


Man, that would be totally awesome. Just think about it. Their lives must be so fun and free of worry - like living in a jungle-themed video game. Need some good luck - find the sperm power-up. Need help with the ladies, get the severed tongue power-up. If I lived there, I'd start a business where I'd offer to follow them around playing a selection of Super-Mario songs on a portable Casio keyboard.

[Hispeed1]

That's pretty messed up. All that needs to be criminalized and prosecuted.

[AgentX]

Man, that would be totally awesome. Just think about it. Their lives must be so fun and free of worry - like living in a jungle-themed video game. Need some good luck - find the sperm power-up. Need help with the ladies, get the severed tongue power-up. If I lived there, I'd start a business where I'd offer to follow them around playing a selection of Super-Mario songs on a portable Casio keyboard.
Indeed! We could hack up a mod with souls for unlimited lives. And while we're at it, let's order some penile cigars and blow a "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" whistlesmoke in face of Freud.

Partners?

[seraosha]

Africa was better off under White rule.

LOL, thats awesome bait man...look who bit.

[WarriorMonk]

well if its racism to you, then let's forget about them, and not help them out, let the gods sort them out, it's not our problem.

[Col.O'neill]

This is Africa...

[LineDoggie]

Maybe education means that western moral is tought? You cannot say that the western ethical standards are superior to the african ones. One could say that this is racism. Especially if one were smoking crack :roll: You Approve of Mutiliating Children for Amulets? and Fake Medecine?

If wanting them to be educated and enlightened to the horrific savagry of this practice is racist, what do you call someone who advocates the continuing of it?

[TheBelgian]

Maybe education means that western moral is tought? You cannot say that the western ethical standards are superior to the african ones. One could say that this is racism.

I'll say that, i dont care if people think it's racist.

The problem is generalizing about Africa in general, there are a lot of differences from tribe to tribe, and region to region. But, on the whole, tribal African culture tends to be waaaay more violent and bloody than anything that's existed in the west since the days of the Inquisition.

[JJHH]

Planet Africa..

[ayanami_tard]

that got to be hurt


good thing it wasn't widespread

[Flamming_Python]

I'll say that, i dont care if people think it's racist.

The problem is generalizing about Africa in general, there are a lot of differences from tribe to tribe, and region to region. But, on the whole, tribal African culture tends to be waaaay more violent and bloody than anything that's existed in the west since the days of the Inquisition.

But it did exist at some point in the past; which sort of defeats any argument that these practices are due to race, or even that much due to culture. They are the result of economic conditions whereby there are absolutely miserable conditions, rural low-technology livelyhoods, geographical isolation, no effective government, tribally-divided societies (i'd imagine few carry out such crimes against their own tribe or in their own village), virtually no employment, no medicine, extremely low education, high rates of killing & violence and no effective system to enforce the law against it.

Under such an environment, it is not too surprising that human life is valued so low, which can very well foster a system where human organs and the business of killing becomes a commodity that can be traded and sold by enterprising criminals. I'd remind you that in any society in anarchy in any part of the world, the business of killing/kidnapping/etc... also becomes popular; in a way and via methods of course specific to the culture of the region, but ultimately the effect and inhumanity of it is the same. Chechen criminals (they are white more or less) for instance, found it more profitable to simply grab victims of the street and ransom them for money. Sounds less brutle, but consider the conditions and what sort of torture and mutilation the victim will have to go through if the money wasn't paid up. There was a famous case where an Italian photographer landed in Chechnya and was provided with bodyguards. When he decided to pose in front of a building for a photo, he stepped a few meters away from his security; and at that precise moment he was grabbed by someone from a van with an open door driving along the road.

The use of human organs in traditional medicine is of course a part of the culture, but this in itself is not the problem, as this practice cannot possibly thrive in an environment where economic, political & social progress renders the trade of live human body parts to be no longer profitable, too dangerous, etc...

[Gleipnir]

I'm not convinced that it is fair to fictionalize the experience of a culture that doesn't have the same perception and world-view as homogenized Western cultures.

It has been argued that cases in post-colonial countries where members of an indigenous population view hyper-traditionalist practices of the pre-colonial culture as a way to articulate their rejection of Westernization.
One could say they are trying to find their roots in a system that can be disorienting and alienating for them because they can not articulate an identity for themselves that belongs to their indigenous group.

It can be argued that returning to hyper-traditional practices are not only an affirmation and re-appropriation of their pre-colonial identity but also an act of conscious rebellion against the cultural worldviews and practices of their former Colonial rulers.

[Flamming_Python]

I'm not convinced that it is fair to fictionalize the experience of a culture that doesn't have the same perception and world-view as homogenized Western cultures.

It has been argued that cases in post-colonial countries where members of an indigenous population view hyper-traditionalist practices of the pre-colonial culture as a way to articulate their rejection of Westernization.
One could say they are trying to find their roots in a system that can be disorienting and alienating for them because they can not articulate an identity for themselves that belongs to their indigenous group.

It can be argued that returning to hyper-traditional practices are not only an affirmation and re-appropriation of their pre-colonial identity but also an act of conscious rebellion against the cultural worldviews and practices of their former Colonial rulers.

Only valid I believe in socially developed regions (such as big cities), where tribal allegiances are far less ****ounced and a united national consciousness can develop to replace and reject Westernism in the first place with their own values. This is what has happened in the Middle East.

However, in the region in question I wouldn't be surprised if there were people who had never even heard of the rule of the colonial powers over them. The motives for these practices there are therefore different, being chiefly as I said, economic and allowed to become prevalent due to the lack of the rule of law.

[Gleipnir]

Only valid I believe in socially developed regions (such as big cities), where tribal allegiances are far less ****ounced and a united national consciousness can develop to replace and reject Westernism in the first place with their own values. This is what has happened in the Middle East.

However, in the region in question I wouldn't be surprised if there were people who had never even heard of the rule of the colonial powers over them. The motives for these practices there are therefore different, being chiefly as I said, economic and allowed to become prevalent due to the lack of the rule of law.

About your first point-
I disagree- a good example: kanaima practices in Guyana (very far from big cities)

About your second- it is a good point, although I am not sure how plausible it is that there is absolutely no concept of having had a Colonial history. I am sure there must be some kind of narrative that incorporates the White men. Maybe not in the way I have suggested earlier but surely there must be some kind of interpretation of their existence.

[TheBelgian]

But it did exist at some point in the past; which sort of defeats any argument that these practices are due to race, or even that much due to culture. They are the result of economic conditions whereby there are absolutely miserable conditions, rural low-technology livelyhoods, geographical isolation, no effective government, tribally-divided societies (i'd imagine few carry out such crimes against their own tribe or in their own village), virtually no employment, no medicine, extremely low education, high rates of killing & violence and no effective system to enforce the law against it.

Under such an environment, it is not too surprising that human life is valued so low, which can very well foster a system where human organs and the business of killing becomes a commodity that can be traded and sold by enterprising criminals. I'd remind you that in any society in anarchy in any part of the world, the business of killing/kidnapping/etc... also becomes popular; in a way and via methods of course specific to the culture of the region, but ultimately the effect and inhumanity of it is the same. Chechen criminals (they are white more or less) for instance, found it more profitable to simply grab victims of the street and ransom them for money. Sounds less brutle, but consider the conditions and what sort of torture and mutilation the victim will have to go through if the money wasn't paid up. There was a famous case where an Italian photographer landed in Chechnya and was provided with bodyguards. When he decided to pose in front of a building for a photo, he stepped a few meters away from his security; and at that precise moment he was grabbed by someone from a van with an open door driving along the road.

The use of human organs in traditional medicine is of course a part of the culture, but this in itself is not the problem, as this practice cannot possibly thrive in an environment where economic, political & social progress renders the trade of live human body parts to be no longer profitable, too dangerous, etc...

Hey, I never said it had anything to do with race. I'm just saying I don't care if people say I'm a racist for having this opinion. I think it is more due to the tribal culture and the lawlesness in much of Africa. And if you live in a conflict area, of course your opinion of the value of human life will be fundamentally different.

And I fully realize that we westerns have similar histories of barbaric treatment and actions in our past. Those should be condemned too. But I'd like to think that we have evolved beyond that as a society (though they still rear their ugly head occasionally), and we are in our right to condemn these actions. Be it in other cultures, or our own. We shouldn't act holier-than-thou, and pretend that we were never the same, but this shouldn't stop us from critiscising and attempting to stop these inhumane mutiliations.

[Difool]

I am not saying that and I reckon that you are trolling :bash:

Ouch! You got me.
Interesting info about that medical usage indeed. Never thought of this.
I heard and read of so many cruelties happening in central africa. So I have to admit that I'm not surprised of anything anymore. I just hope that your SA will stay out of that.

[Vympel]

Africa was better off under White rule.

You mean America?p-)

[Nizark]

Sounds like someone needs a lil' liberation!

[Kadrun]

And they want to hold World Cup.

[Roy Batty]

Yet another reason I pray our next deployment wont be that direction.......

[LineDoggie]

You mean America?p-) We never had possessions in Africa, so you are Fail sweetheart.

[makavelli]

TIA

This Is Africa

[R/cst]

Muti murder suspect found with body part

2009/02/14

A SUSPECT in a muti murder investigation this week told a packed court how police confiscated his “medical bag” containing a woman’s placenta, a severed head from a cat and chicken skin when he was arrested last year.
Vusumzi April, who appeared in the Centane Magistrate’s Court on Wednesday, and four other suspects are being investigated for their alleged involvement in the murder of Khanyiso Mama, whose mutilated body was found in Tutura village last October.

This case forms part of the police’s Kei Ripper investigation, following a number of muti killings in the Butterworth and Centane areas last year.

Taking the stand this week, April, a traditional healer from Gonubie, said the items confiscated were ingredients used for traditional medicinal brews.

He also had contraceptives in his bag the day he was arrested.

April, who denies any involvement in the murder of Mama, which is believed to have been a muti killing, told the court he was beaten up and suffocated with a black plastic bag by the Butterworth police. This forced him to “confess” to taking part in the killing of people for body parts.

He said he lied to police about dealings with a mortuary worker in King William’s Town who he had claimed regularly supplied him with amafutha omlungu (body fat of a white person) after post- mortems had been completed.

“I only told the police what they wanted to hear in order for them to stop assaulting me,” he said.

The small courtroom was packed with concerned people from surrounding villages and school pupils. Court orderlies had to maintain order as people who could not get seats, stood in the gallery rather than being outside.
One old woman, who spent the entire day in court, kept passing remarks about the five men.

“Look at their broad shoulders. They have gained weight because they are eating nice there in prison at our expense,” said the villager.

Earlier, April’s co-accused – Mduduzi Dlamini, Sakhumzi Ngabaza and Mlandeli Jonas – testified that they were also tortured into confessing to Mama’s killing. April denied any knowledge of the charge levelled against him.


The fifth accused, Zionist church bishop Patrick Hlekani, a taxi driver, of Scenery Park, told the court on Wednesday that he, too, was assaulted. He had not made a confession.

H is shack, he said, had since been demolished by angry people who said they do not want him staying in the area.

The case was postponed to February 23. - By SIBONGILE MKANI, Court Reporter
http://www.dispatch.co.za/article.aspx?id=293696

[R/cst]

Debunking myths about muti, ritualistic and serial murders

2008/11/20

INSIGHT

Brenda Beukman

THE use of human body parts for medicinal purposes – “muti”, derived from the word meaning tree – is based in the belief that it is possible to appropriate the life force of one person through its literal consumption of another.

Medicine, or muti, murder appears in several countries across Africa, with ethnographic evidence going back to the early nineteenth century in South Africa. Research indicates that an estimated 80percent of South Africans regularly use traditional herbs and medicines for muti.

Not all traditional healers make use of human body parts as an ingredient in their medicines, but those who do place an “order” with a person hired for this specialist purpose. The orders include private parts, tongues, hands, heads, eyes and lips which are used to ensure economic prosperity, ****** potency and to promote romantic matters amongst others.

These are the type of self-centred motives that leads to murder.
The use of human body matter does, however, not always involve killing. F or example, a living person’s nail clippings or hair cuttings may secretly be collected by a jealous neighbour or friend and used in potions targeted against that person. Body parts can also be harvested from corpses, with mortuary workers and hospital staff implicated in this aspect of the trade.

The body parts are usually mixed with other medicinal plant matter. This contributes to traditional healers being viewed with suspicion. H owever, the traditional healers involved in muti- murders are usually not your mainstream traditional healers.

In South Africa, there currently seems to be an increase in muti-murders. The Limpopo province recorded 250 muti-murders in a single year. This increase is also well documented in the Eastern Cape, with muti-murders occurring in the Bizana and Butterworth areas.

The actual frequency of muti-murders is difficult to gauge because in a country with an exceptionally high murder rate it is likely that not every muti-related murder is recognised and recorded as such.

Although there is no existing profile of a muti-murderer, research indicates that certain gangs specialise in muti- killings and a syndicate is formed between the murderer(s) and the buyer.

This was evident in the muti-murders earlier this year in the Bizana area.
The involvement of more than one individual in muti-related murders complicates the police investigation, as the modus operandi will differ from gang member to gang member, including the amount of violence used. This can be problematic when attempts are made to link different murders to each other.

Muti-murder can be distinguished from ritualistic murders by their motive and modus operandi.

Ritualistic murders are committed in a specific way which is repeated in each murder and can include symbols being left at each murder scene. Crimes entailing ritual violence are generally referred to as cult or occult crime.

Unlike ritualistic murder, where death is the express purpose of the act, death in muti-related killings are an anticipated and accepted by-product of the garnering of human organs – but it is not the main aim.

Ritualistic murder and muti-murders differ from serial murders in that the latter has a ****** motive and, in the majority of the murders, the victim’s body is buried.

In ritualistic and muti-murders however, the victims are not buried and research indicates that muti-murders appear to be committed close to rivers.

All three crimes are by no means random or spontaneous but rather carefully planned, which indicates the conscious and deliberate selection of a suitable victim.

Muti-murders might appear to be a throwback to an uncivilised time, yet the current increase correlates with economic and political stress. This argument deserves some attention when viewing it in the context of the motive for the crime, which centres around financial prosperity, power and increased performance. Such killings could symbolise a desperate attempt at gaining some control and predictability.

Very often murders committed in this manner are explained by referring to the offender as being a psychopath, someone who violates the rights of others and does not show empathy nor guilt. H owever, following a criminological approach, the brutality and callousness can be interpreted as being indicative of intent.

Theoretical explanation can vary from the individuals committing the crime due to a lack of conventional opportunities, coupled with a desire for success, to a lack of meaningful and law-abiding attachment, commitment, involvement and belief in a conventional society.

The association and personal exposure to aggressive and criminal behaviour can also not be ignored.

Attempts to explain and understand criminal behaviour is usually done in order to predict and ultimately prevent crime.

However, there seems to be a tendency by the general public to attach an explanation of bizarre and brutal killings to a phenomenon so as to alleviate their accountability in these murders, thereby forgetting that crime is a symptom of what is happening within their society or community.


Dr Brenda Beukman is a forensic criminologist and acting head of the Department of Criminology and Administration of Criminal Justice at Walter Sisulu University.

http://www.dispatch.co.za/article.aspx?id=272115

[Icar]

According to local lore

Sperm and urine: also widely seen as a source of good luck
[/LIST]

they can take plenty of mine:)

[kosse]

they can take plenty of mine:)

I doubt you'd agree with the methods they'd propably want to extract it with.

[R/cst]

The problem of muti murders has been worsened by the influx of foreign so called healer, witchdoctors etc.

They often prey on the local superstitions in order to make money

There government is attempting to regulate the traditional healers, but this will not have much impact on those engaged in illegal practices.
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:IeL0qpxzA-QJ:www.healthlink.org.za/uploads/files/chapter18_99.pdf+traditional+healer&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=za

[R/cst]

Here is an example of a forign healer



International Spiritual Traditional Healer in South Africa


Tel: +27734444923 Fax: +27865529072
E-mail: chiefdungu@chiefdungunativehealer.co.za
Physical Address: Kitchener Avenue, Corner Durham Street
House Number 11, Bez Valley [Johannesburg]
Branch in Northern Cape : Enquire for information


Chief dungu originally from the pemba islands is blessed with powerful Spirits [ ancestrol powers] to meet all your needs to satisfaction, all my services are beyond human imagination, and many have always asked me what is behind my services because of their effect to their problems
I can cast spells no matter how far the client my be and my spells are guaranteed to work in 3 days im hear to treat, heal & pay attention to whoever has problems using true African herbs with the guidance of my strong spiritual powers , I do the following: swollen body, misfortunes, to bring back lost lover, removal of misunderstandings with any one, demands/debts, tuberculosis, court cases, customer attraction in business, diabetes, blood pressure, are you looking for a job, success/promotion of any kind, education, prevent thieves from attacking people & property, to be liked at work, weak body, pains in joints & stroke, gonorrhea, women who cannot produce, asthma, vomiting all the time, women with pregnancy problems, men's ***** which cannot erect powerfully, removal of bad lack & give good lack, bewitched people, diarrhea, fortune teller, to make men's ***** big and strong permanently, are you addicted to drugs/alcohol and want to stop it?, do you need help on aids symptoms, do you want to slim/loose weight?, is your partner cheating on you &want to stop it?, control of finances [expenditures], to be loved alone by your partner, control family matters, protection, are you looking for a lover [marriage partner], etc
Have you been disappointed? have you reached the dead end of your life? have you lost hope? nomatter how your situation may be through my strong ancestrol powers all is possibe,many have been successful through my spell casting and its also your chance to experience a complete change in your misarable life, its never too late through my strong ancestors all is possible, its time for you to break through your problems and not to spend another year regreting saying that i wish i had known, remember you were born lucky and why do you give chance to certain obstacles that have taken all your happiness and joy and have left you with missary suffering? im here to help you to over come all your problems including the following;
Special Spells

http://www.chiefdungunativehealer.co.za/images/bfly.jpgBe My Valentine Spell
Help bring that special person closer to you!
http://www.chiefdungunativehealer.co.za/images/images4.jpgThe Luck Spell
You can change your luck instantly! If you need good luck to happen today, ask for the Luck Spell.
http://www.chiefdungunativehealer.co.za/images/013288.gifMaster of White Magic
Once he makes the psychic connection with you, your life will never be the same!
http://www.chiefdungunativehealer.co.za/images/cross.gifThe Ramah Spell
If you have a pure heart, you could be blessed with riches!
http://www.chiefdungunativehealer.co.za/images/images13.jpgEnd Regret Spell
It's time to put the past behind you and continue on with your life!
http://www.chiefdungunativehealer.co.za/images/013284.gifForgive Me...
If a past mistake is haunting you, preventing the two of you from reuniting, don't give up.
http://www.chiefdungunativehealer.co.za/images/images13.jpgThe Wealth Spell
Let the Wealth Spell position you to reap the financial as well as romantic windfalls you so deserve.
http://www.chiefdungunativehealer.co.za/images/images6.jpgThe Wishmaker
Allow this gifted telepathic to put his extraordinary powers to work for you!
http://www.chiefdungunativehealer.co.za/images/images1.jpgRa pprochement Spell
From the heartland of the french countryside comes this very powerful spell to help you reunite with your lover
http://www.chiefdungunativehealer.co.za/images/images8.jpg Warlock Lover Spell
It is possible to win back your lover's heart because a gifted psychic awaits your call for help
http://www.chiefdungunativehealer.co.za/images/images16.jpgThe Krakow Spell
Become the master of your life and determine the course of your destiny!
http://www.chiefdungunativehealer.co.za/images/ledies.jpgMend a Broken Heart
You are at a crossroads... but don't give up yet!
The Shaman's Erotic Spell
Once your lover is turned on to you, think of the possibilities!
http://www.chiefdungunativehealer.co.za/images/skull.jpg The Seduce Me Spell
This remarkable spell is designed to open the heart and mind of that special person to your irresistible allure.
Give Me My Money!!
It is time for you to enjoy the wealth, comfort, and respect you deserve!
Triple Cast Spells
The Mother of All Spells! A master psychic will cast your spell once, then again, then one more time!
Retrieve a Lover
If you long for the return of a lost lover...there is something you can do about it!
Growing His Love Spell
It's time for you to take that leap of faith and call upon a powerful psychic to help get your man
Aura Cleansing
Cleansing your aura will remove the imperfections and dark clouds that surround it--allowing love and money to flow through your aura into your life.
Authentic Voodoo Spells
Once you open your heart and mind to this awesome power, miraculous changes in your life could happen to you!
The Lust For Me Spell
Stimulate the lover of your choice to have strong, uncontrollable thoughts about holding you, caressing you, making love to you.
Purge Evil Spirits
If you sometimes feel as if you have an enemy within, this is the spell for you.
The Black Curse spell
Because it can bring about horrendous times for the person to whom the Black Curse is directed, please do not request this unless it is absolutely necessary.
Marry Me!
It's time to tie the knot!
Emergency Spells
Urgent! If your need is immediate and time is short! Banish Them! Vanish Them!
http://www.chiefdungunativehealer.co.za/index_clip_image002.gifThis is not a spell.
It is a curse!
http://www.chiefdungunativehealer.co.za/

[Salman]

Are all the victims of such "harvesting" black South Africans? I bet there would have been a media storm if some of the victims were non-black.

The people who are doing these things are monsters and the people who give these acts less attention because they are not affecting their part of society should be seen as monsters as well.

[playtym]

All that needs to be criminalized and prosecuted.

Criminalise it? You're joking, right?

Our future president's probably got some muti that's guaranteed to make him win the election.

[Maktab]

Here is an example of a forign healer

I work in Braamfontein, we've received at least ten flyers like that from witchdoctors working in and around the CBD. They're amusing to read ("Will make boss give your prommotion" and so on), but the frightening thing is that these guys seem to do roaring business. If you know where to look, there are many small little shops in the city that quite openly sell muti made from animals, including hyenas, lions and other supposedly protected species, and who'd probably sell you human body parts under the counter if you asked. The craziest part is that this is a major city with an urbanised population, we're not talking about ignorant rural people here.

Thing is, this isn't about economic conditions or poverty, as some here have suggested. These practices didn't just start up after the arrival of colonialism; they've been around for centuries and have long been part of some African cultures. See West Africa's JuJu-men for another example.

And frankly, the only way to end these practices is to get people to abandon their African cultural beliefs and become 'Westernised', in the process internalising Western values surrounding the value of life and the non-magical abilities of body parts. On the upside, this is increasingly happening, especially amongst the youth, but unfortunately there are still many black South Africans who view Westernisation as an outright betrayal and do all they can to fight it.

And yes, in all seriousness it wouldn't surprise me if JZ has employed the services of traditional healers.

[playtym]

I work in Braamfontein, we've received at least ten flyers like that from witchdoctors working in and around the CBD.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2047/herbalist01ji5.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9884/herbalist02nj4.jpg

[R/cst]

Are all the victims of such "harvesting" black South Africans? I bet there would have been a media storm if some of the victims were non-black.

The people who are doing these things are monsters and the people who give these acts less attention because they are not affecting their part of society should be seen as monsters as well.

There have been instances of whites been murdered for Muti, but the so called healers mostly get the parts they need from contacts at morgues etc.

Maktab I also get plenty of these flyers, they are really entreating.

About a year ago we were raiding in central for drugs, weapons and illegal immigrants and we found a room used by one of these guys. Our black members refused to go in to the room as there was muti above the door; they told us that it would give whoever enters without permission, very bad sores.

One of the detectives picked up a calabash and shook it, I have never seen my black colleagues move that fast, they all disappeared in a couple of seconds

The room stank quite badly and we found some strange things that could have come from humans

[Maktab]

Haha, awesome find playtym. I think I've got that exact same flyer stashed away somewhere. Think I should pay him a visit? I could really do with that promotion.

R/cst, I doubt they were all that impressed with whoever shook the calabash. On a broader level though, I would guess that's half the reason these guys are able to thrive is that most cops believe in all this stuff and are deathly afraid to go after them. And few people in a position to know about Muti sellers, especially those specialising in human body parts, are going to be willing to risk having spells put on them if they tip the cops off.

Crazy.

[Eztyga]

Disgusting,sick people there.

TIA

*brushes dust from Blood Diamond pants*

[Dinges]

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9884/herbalist02nj4.jpg


R100! Preposterous. My guy is cheaper.........Ok, he is only a Doctor and not a Professor.

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/2135/drsimbaxl7.jpg



And let we not forget all the premature deaths of boys at initiation schools.

[BLUE THOR]

alt-tab-PACKINGHEAT: enlarges *****
alt-tab-HAPPYDAYS: makes good things happen
alt-tab-GIVEHEALTH: puts your health bar back up to 100

what? it works on the Interwebs!!

[Eztyga]

My moneys on Dr. Simba, he is a ****** (pussy) specialist...

[Salman]

There have been instances of whites been murdered for Muti, but the so called healers mostly get the parts they need from contacts at morgues etc.

Maktab I also get plenty of these flyers, they are really entreating.

About a year ago we were raiding in central for drugs, weapons and illegal immigrants and we found a room used by one of these guys. Our black members refused to go in to the room as there was muti above the door; they told us that it would give whoever enters without permission, very bad sores.

One of the detectives picked up a calabash and shook it, I have never seen my black colleagues move that fast, they all disappeared in a couple of seconds

The room stank quite badly and we found some strange things that could have come from humans

Did you get sores? lol

SA needs alot of education for a long time! Most of these problems will hopefully disappear when the average south african have a solid basic education.

[Rudolph]

^
Really? Mugabe and Mbeki are some of the most educated people in Africa!!

I get those flyers at every red light as well.

Middle-class black SAers still sacrifice goats in their backyards in the suburbs and it causes a lot of conflict...

Goat slaughter sparks uproar (http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,6119,2-7-1442_1905303,00.html)
27/03/2006 08:50 - (SA)


Johannesburg - An ancestral ceremony involving the slaughtering of six goats at a Durban North home has sparked a furore in the leafy suburb, the Mercury reported on Monday.

Its website said the Zulu ritual would have gone unnoticed had the goats not bleated incessantly while being off-loaded from a hired trailer.

This woke up the sleeping baby of the Democratic Alliance's caucus leader in the eThekwini Municipality, John Steenhuisen.

Neighbours watched as Richard Mlangeni, director of corporate services at the department of education in the eThekwini region, dragged goats into his double-storey home for the ceremony amid loud charges by Steenhuisen's wife Julie allegedly asking: "Who brought goats here?"

While Mlangeni apologised to her for the noise, he said she continued to charge that he had no right to bring goats to the suburb.

He had hoped that Julie, being the wife of a local councillor, would be more tolerant of other people's traditions.

"As an African family we felt our dignity as human beings and South Africans was being undermined and we also took offence when she said we had no right to do a traditional ceremony here in our country," Mlangeni said.

Steenhuisen said his wife had not complained about the ceremony, but about the noise.

"My wife denies that she said they had no right to have the ceremony. I have no problem with rituals, but the right channels must be followed."

Mlangeni said he had obtained permission from the local police station for the ritual.

He explained the goats were slaughtered to remind his ancestors that he had moved to another area and to continue blessing him.

Mike Sutcliffe, eThekwini municipal manager, said people were allowed to slaughter goats in the metro, but they had to follow certain health procedures.

- SAPA

[Salman]

Sacrifice sounds like such a negative word. Being a muslim I know that during "Eid al adha" muslims sacrifice sheeps/goats or rather they just slaughter more sheeps and goats in order to give the poor a chance to eat and not go hungry on the occasion.

Conclusion- If the animal do not suffer and the meat is eaten why not? As long as you dont slaughter the animal in the metro(?) and instead actually go to a slaughterhouse?!

[Red]

Africa was better off under White rule.

Yes master, I want to encourage you to crack that whip harder master. Have I shined your shoe to your liking master?

And to the original Poster:


Is it to much to ask that you correctly title your thread. Did you mean South Africa or Africa? Africa is a pretty big continent and in the part of the continent I inhabit, non of this takes place. So please if you don't mind, could you just title your thread appropriately. Have a good one.

[Connaught Ranger]

Africa was better off under White rule.


Quoted for its pure stupidity content.:roll:

[Connaught Ranger]

The problem with this ritual killing theme is its being exported, in the last couple of years the decapitated, hand less, mutilated bodies of young (circa 10 year old) African children have been found in the Thames, in London.

The people who carry out these acts and not only in South Africa as some would have us believe need to be deleted with extreme prejudice, as soon as possible.

[Salman]

The problem with this ritual killing theme is its being exported, in the last couple of years the decapitated, hand less, mutilated bodies of young (circa 10 year old) African children have been found in the Thames, in London.

The people who carry out these acts and not only in South Africa as some would have us believe need to be deleted with extreme prejudice, as soon as possible.

Is there any proof that these victims in London are connected to sacrifice actions? Also do you have any source about these alleged mutilated corpses?

[MkH]

Maybe education means that western moral is tought? You cannot say that the western ethical standards are superior to the african ones. One could say that this is racism.

Are you joking? Of course the western ethical standards are superior; I don't see people walking around here, carrying belts with children's *****es hanging on them. One can't choose their skin colour or appearance, but one can choose which set of morals he or she is acting by.

[Gleipnir]

MkH
you obviously only look at others through your own Westerncentric world view.

[Connaught Ranger]

Is there any proof that these victims in London are connected to sacrifice actions? Also do you have any source about these alleged mutilated corpses?

I came across the story on yahoo news last year, I remember part of it, where a police spokesperson said it had all the hallmarks of being connected to African ritual killings as they were not able to identify the bodies and no family had reported a family member missing, chillingly, it was further speculated that the children might have been imported for the specific purpose.
a quick search on the net found the following:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/6177001.stm

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/319.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2009876.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/1938923.stm

Dated 2005. (below).

http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=17379&sec=39&con=55

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20050604/ai_n14653904



Connaught Ranger.:)

[Salman]

Alright, so in other words there is a ton of speculations and uncertain conclusions. I hope they werre wrong!

[Walter Sobchak]

Maybe education means that western moral is tought? You cannot say that the western ethical standards are superior to the african ones. One could say that this is racism.

In these cases, yes they are!

It takes no great store of logic to determine that a culture which does not condemn (de facto condoning) the use of body parts in "traditional medicine" totally unsupported by scientific fact is somewhat inferior to a cultural tradition which recognizes human and individual rights.

Speaking out against ignorance and inhumanity isn't racist.

[Havoc345]

Quoted for its pure stupidity content.:roll:

Something we can agree on Connaught p-)

[cold_warrior]

I'm not convinced that it is fair to fictionalize the experience of a culture that doesn't have the same perception and world-view as homogenized Western cultures.

It has been argued that cases in post-colonial countries where members of an indigenous population view hyper-traditionalist practices of the pre-colonial culture as a way to articulate their rejection of Westernization.
One could say they are trying to find their roots in a system that can be disorienting and alienating for them because they can not articulate an identity for themselves that belongs to their indigenous group.

It can be argued that returning to hyper-traditional practices are not only an affirmation and re-appropriation of their pre-colonial identity but also an act of conscious rebellion against the cultural worldviews and practices of their former Colonial rulers.

This makes complete sense. I'd never heard about these kind of things going on 150 or more years ago, and you think that if they were the colonial powers that be would have played them up as justification for their presence. "See, they run around chopping people up for medicine. They need us to civilize them." I could understand if it was one of those things they did to captured or dead enemy soldiers after a battle, but a society where poaching your neighbor's kid for his beans and sausage is acceptable doesn't seem like it would last too long.

ETA:

R/cst - you're active duty SAPS, correct? Is there any sort of task force being set up to specifically deal with muti killings or are they being treated as regular homicides?

[Piepalook]

Stop being so racist. Just because their culture is different to yours doesn't mean it's wrong. p-)

Are you completely nuts?
How can you justify this as culture?

This "culture" you refer to is nothing but barbarism.
It is not something that has a place in modern society.
It is 2009 ater all.

Not 2009 BC.

[Piepalook]

Are you really that stupid that you think that things like that do not happen in time "under White rule"?

Believe me.
It did.

[kosse]

Are you completely nuts?
How can you justify this as culture?

This "culture" you refer to is nothing but barbarism.
It is not something that has a place in modern society.
It is 2009 ater all.

Not 2009 BC.

It never ceases to amaze me how blind people are towards sarcasm in the internet. Even when there's a smiley to make sure that the message is understood :lol:

[playtym]

Are you completely nuts?

Possibly.

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4839/nuts.jpg

[p2pPower]

What happens in Africa, stays in Africa.. No one cares :D

[Mastermind]

Well, with all this going on, I have to wonder why such a large part of Africa is so backward....so lost to the rest of civilized humanity.

[Rudolph]

2 men killed for 'witchcraft'
09/03/2009 12:14 - (SA)


Maputo - Three Mozambican brothers allegedly lynched their two uncles by burning them to death in Maputo, for apparently being witches, Televisao de Mozambique reported on Sunday.

Almeida Tachinga, a senior officer in the national police service, PRM, was quoted by the state controlled television channel as saying the suspects first cut their uncles who were aged 40 and 60 with pangas to death before locking their corpses in a hut and setting it alight.

Tachinga said police arrived too late to be able to save the two uncles.

The television channel quoted sources at the scene of the crime saying the suspects had accused the two uncles of killing their parents using witchcraft.

Beliefs in witchcraft in Mozambique are rife and many families have conflicts related to accusations of witchcraft.

Lynchings have been on the increase in Mozambique in recent years despite appeals by the government to desist from the practice.

Tachinga said the 3 brothers were in police detention.

- SAPA

http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/News/0,,2-11-1447_2482046,00.html

[R/cst]

R/cst - you're active duty SAPS, correct? Is there any sort of task force being set up to specifically deal with muti killings or are they being treated as regular homicides?

Unfortunatly No

It tends to fall under the Serious Violent Crimes unit, but at the moments the SAPS is undergoing another reshuffle with experienced officers been parcelled out to station wher they will drive a desk.

SAPS Managment needs a major kick in the ass to get it into gear

[R/cst]

What happens in Africa, stays in Africa.. No one cares :D
Really

Have you seen the stats on Legal and illegal immigration from Africa to the rest of the world?

[Connaught Ranger]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/blog/around_the_world/article/1883/


Child 'witches': accusing the defenceless.

Mon Mar 09 10:18AM http://d.yimg.com/i/util/anysize/376,http%3A%2F%2Fa323.yahoofs.com%2Fymg%2Faround_the_world%2Faround_the_world-142518888-1236593890.jpg%3FymjDo6ADaAACdazc?v=2

When I first arrived in Eket, one of the oil hubs in the Niger Delta, I thought this must be the holiest of all cities in Nigeria. Every few hundred metres are signposts advertising new Pentecostalist churches.

How wrong I was, I recalled a few minutes later, when I reached the rescue centre I was seeking on the city outskirts.

In total, there are 175 children of all ages living at the centre - the youngest 18 months, the oldest 16 years.

It was afternoon when I arrived, and while some of the children were playing in the grounds, others were busy with chores -- fetching water or cooking.

Young and old, what they shared in common was that they have all been branded witches, kicked out of their family homes, some tortured, some maimed, and all forced to seek shelter.

The stories I heard seemed like a replay of those told of Europe's own witch-hunting period in the 16th and 17th centuries.

But this time, the victims are not elderly men and women, but defenceless children, victims of self-styled religious leaders, crusading against 'witchcraft' in children.

In parts of Akwa Ibom state, one of the nine southern states that make up the oil-producing region of Nigeriam, children have in recent years been beaten, tortured and abandoned as 'witches'.

Some have been thrown into the raging waters of the Atlantic Ocean, according to Nigerian officials and activists, working to end to the practice.

The state authorities in Akwa Ibom in November passed a new law against child abuse and launched a campaign to smoke out those carrying out the attacks on children while educating the public to beware.

The self-declared prophets who are behind this practice receive payment in cash or kind for 'finding' 'child witches' and then 'exorcising' them.

The stories I heard at the charity centre set up to give the children shelter are heartbreaking.

One day after dinner, 11-year-old Deborah's stepmother went to her bedroom, armed with a machete and a broom, threatening to kill her if she did not confess she was a witch.

Fearing for her life, Deborah confessed and was immediately taken to a pastor who 'confirmed' that she was what she said and detained her. Over several days, the girl was flogged repeatedly by the pastor before she escaped back home.

Days later her half-sister sprained her hand while playing. It could only be her 'juju', or witchcraft, which caused the accident. She was taken back to the pastor where she was placed on a 'fast' to rid her of the evil.

After several days, and too weak to walk, she was returned home in a wheelbarrow. Neighbours mobbed her saying 'the witch is back' with some assaulting here for allegedly causing her half-brother's death a few days before her return. She ran inside the house, and hid under the bed, but her father followed here, pushing a machete at her, before she broke out and fled.

Aididiong, 8, was accused by her stepmother of being a witch after a cockroach invasion of her parents' wardrobe. The mother believed she turned into a cockroach and sent her off to live with an old and ailing grandmother who later died.

For several days she took care of herself -- cooking and going to school -- thinking her granny was just oversleeping until she started seeing maggots around her body.

That was when she was rescued and brought to the centre. I left the centre heartbroken, but impressed by the people I had met, who were running it, and the authorities who passed their new law against this.

The shelter, though, is out of space to take in more children. They turn them away daily. Akwa Ibom children are just like any other innocent children, I thought as I left. They need love and parental care.


In this blog, reporters and editors for global news wire AFP blog about the news they report and the challenges they face covering events from Baghdad to Beijing, the White House to Darfur. Susan Njanji reports for AFP from Lagos.

Ignorance the cause of all the worlds problems.

Connaught Ranger.

[Piers brendon]

Look guys, Africa just needs time to sort out these problems. America had slavery for nearly 100 years after it got independence. Now that was "sick and disgusting" as mhk said. By comparison i think SA is doing quite well.

[Salman]

Some people here have an agenda about these "issues"...seems like someone has been unhappy sense 1994...p-)




On a side note the "west have better values" is a bunch of BS. The "west" had and still have it's hands dirty in many places. Also practising "your values" were it benefits you most (and not were it is "needed") is getting annoying at best.

Rant mode off.

[R/cst]

Some people here have an agenda about these "issues"...seems like someone has been unhappy sense 1994...p-)


On a side note the "west have better values" is a bunch of BS. The "west" had and still have it's hands dirty in many places. Also practising "your values" were it benefits you most (and not were it is "needed") is getting annoying at best.

Rant mode off.

Its not an issue, it is part and parcel of our daily lives, these practices have been going on for centuries and will likely continue to do so.

It happened during apartheid although it never really made the news like it does today.

It is a aspect of the different cultures that make up south Africa and Africa as a whole.

There are plenty of cultural practices that continue to day due to the lack of education in that area.

- The myth that having *** with a virgin will cure aids has result in many instances of children been raped

- The myth that using a condom will make you infertile has led to a massive boom in aids stats

- The witch craft claims that are commonly thrown around causing injury and death to innocent parties

[Salman]

Its not an issue, it is part and parcel of our daily lives, these practices have been going on for centuries and will likely continue to do so.

It happened during apartheid although it never really made the news like it does today.

It is a aspect of the different cultures that make up south Africa and Africa as a whole.

There are plenty of cultural practices that continue to day due to the lack of education in that area.

- The myth that having *** with a virgin will cure aids has result in many instances of children been raped

- The myth that using a condom will make you infertile has led to a massive boom in aids stats

- The witch craft claims that are commonly thrown around causing injury and death to innocent parties


There is no doubt in my mind that all of these problems must be dealt with through better education and if needed with punishment. The issue is the constant flow of topics with one thing in common. You don't see any topics trying to portray what have been achieved or is being achieved.

[R/cst]

There is no doubt in my mind that all of these problems must be dealt with through better education and if needed with punishment. The issue is the constant flow of topics with one thing in common. You don't see any topics trying to portray what have been achieved or is being achieved.

Such as?

You mean like handing out millions of condoms which stapled to Aids awareness pamphlets?

The chaos been caused by the taxi industry at the moment in response to the bus rapid transit system.

The daily dose of murder, rape, attacks and corruption that grace our local news.

There is progress yes, but not enough. The past 15 years has been blighted with a sense of self enrichment that permeates through the government as a whole.


Today on IOL

'A man of God has been murdered' (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20090310044737618C460314)
[ South Africa (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=13) ] The brutal murder of Father Lionel Sham has prompted a member of the Catholic priest's family to write an open letter to the South African public

Women lined the gallery for Letsoenya verdict (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20090310045224173C457909)
[ South Africa (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=13) ] Former naval seaman Tsediso Letsoenya has been found guilty of 70 counts related to the rape, attempted rape, assault and robbery of a number of Cape Flats residents.
Taxi driver hijacked by passengers (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=nw20090310081312125C969604)
[ South Africa (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=13) ] Florida police are searching for three men who hijacked a taxi driver at gunpoint and left him stranded on the side of the road

Exhausted firefighters pray for rain (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20090310045237132C617847)
[ South Africa (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=13) ] The fire that has been raging in the mountains above Jonkershoek for nearly a week is now moving towards Stellenbosch, putting Western Cape firefighters under even more pressure.

Fewer guards for 'Mr Houdini' (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20090310044730176C822709)
[ South Africa (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=13) ] The number of armed police officers guarding rape and robbery accused Annanias Mathe has been drastically reduced in the Johannesburg High Court.
Fire chief resigns after airport safety shock (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=594&art_id=vn20090310062713515C856277)
More than 60 percent of the firefighters stationed at Cape Town International Airport do not have any relevant experience, according to reports.
Fire leaves thousands homeless (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=124&art_id=vn20090309120347734C114304)
A small fire at Joe Slovo informal settlement turned into a raging inferno that razed 400 shacks
Senior Parliamentary official placed on leave (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=594&art_id=vn20090310080049110C413804)
Parliamentary secretary Zingile Dingani has been placed on "special leave" pending an inquiry that could see charges formulated against him
'I was told to ignore it' (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=594&art_id=vn20090309112844703C172146)
It sounds like the plot of a soapie, but it is said that back-biting, jealousy and cover-ups are behind the axing of the entire Amafa Heritage Council.
A broken arm and pain pills for six weeks
A grandmother with a broken arm had to wait for six weeks before surgeons could operate on her fracture. She is one of hundreds of patients facing treatment delays as staff levels and administrative red tape continue to bedevil service at KwaZulu-Natal hospitals.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=125&art_id=vn20090310110605279C283755

www.iol.co.za

[playtym]

You don't see any topics trying to portray what have been achieved or is being achieved.

So stop complaining and start some then. :bash:

[Salman]

So stop complaining and start some then. :bash:

Or how about you stop nagging and try to solve your own problems instead of shouting in a forum? :slap:

[R/cst]

Hey salman

Look at the title of this group

Political Discussions and Rants (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=12) :cantbeli:

If you dont like the topic then leave

[Salman]

Hey salman

Look at the title of this group

Political Discussions and Rants (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=12) :cantbeli:

If you dont like the topic then leave

You are proving my point... "R/cst"...im ranting about the repetitive non-ending threads which only have one agenda and that is to show people how much better "some" had it before....

If you don't like the response that some of these threads produce then that is your problem. :roll:

[Rudolph]

You are proving my point... "R/cst"...im ranting about the repetitive non-ending threads which only have one agenda and that is to show people how much better "some" had it before....

If you don't like the response that some of these threads produce then that is your problem. :roll:

Haha. :cantbeli: Before '94 that's how the papers looked about anything the white's did wrong, now it's the ANC's turn... It was due to pressure from citizens in Europe and the USA that so much unusual bad PR, embargoes, etc. were enacted against us yet other nations were off killing millions with only a slap on the wrist. Don't think all the negative press on SA is falling on deaf ears either, slowly governments and social groups are critizing the ANC and their members for lying to them, and not sticking by what they promised they would do.

Another thing, how unimaginably ineffective must the ANC be that with the full support of the country, and the world community, they managed to double the poverty and unemployment from 1994 to 2005?

http://www.polity.org.za/article/poverty-levels-double-in-past-decade-2007-11-12

In many ways they are worse than the National Party, at least income, education, etc. increased for all races then...

And no, that does not mean that apartheid was right, or better, it means though that the National Party and the citizens were right about African rule, and how it would end up. Pretty much forcing us to make the ANC the rulers of the country has done it a great disservice, and I pray to God we can stave of a civil war if this kind of regression continues.

[Salman]

Haha. :cantbeli: Before '94 that's how the papers looked about anything the white's did wrong, now it's the ANC's turn... It was due to pressure from citizens in Europe and the USA that so much unusual bad PR, embargoes, etc. were enacted against us yet other nations were off killing millions with only a slap on the wrist. Don't think all the negative press on SA is falling on deaf ears either, slowly governments and social groups are critizing the ANC and their members for lying to them, and not sticking by what they promised they would do.


Let me check my history book....maybe you had so much bad PR before 1994 because you had an apartheid system that actively degraded peoples lifes depending on how you looked like??

Poor poor you, you were only misunderstood back then right? "Why cant we have apartheid when so many countries are murdering more than us?".....cry me a river.

You have all the right to complain about your own goverment but these pathetic threads are not just that, they try to paint entire groups with the same brush. South Africa obviously have huge problems, many of which are ethnical (no suprise at all), im not saying that you should turn a blind eye to these problems.

[Rudolph]

Let me check my history book....maybe you had so much bad PR before 1994 because you had an apartheid system that actively degraded peoples lifes depending on how you looked like??

Poor poor you, you were only misunderstood back then right? "Why cant we have apartheid when so many countries are murdering more than us?".....cry me a river.

You have all the right to complain about your own goverment but these pathetic threads are not just that, they try to paint entire groups with the same brush. South Africa obviously have huge problems, many of which are ethnical (no suprise at all), im not saying that you should turn a blind eye to these problems.

I don't have a problem with the anti-apartheid movement in principle. People had only the best of intentions, it's just that unless you've lived here for a few years you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Real life is unfortunately like that.

Anyway, not gonna start that up again.... All we can do now is open the world's eyes to the barbaric behaviour of many of our citizens and how corrupt, inept and unprofessional our current government is.

[Obelix]

Salman, ever heard it said "an open mind's a good thing, but careful not to open it too much, lest your brains fall out?"

Don't make out like you know what the situation in SA is currently (or was) like, when all you've viewed it through is the agenda-filled and liberally biased European press. The plight of the South African black man has never been worse than it currently is.

[Salman]

I don't have a problem with the anti-apartheid movement in principle. People had only the best of intentions, it's just that unless you've lived here for a few years you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Real life is unfortunately like that.

Anyway, not gonna start that up again.... All we can do now is open the world's eyes to the barbaric behaviour of many of our citizens and how corrupt, inept and unprofessional our current government is.


See now that is a constructive reply Im glad to answer. I don't doubt your word when you say things are bad in SA. I think you will have to struggle to preserve the rights that we here take for granted. How many in SA thought that you will live happy ever after in 1994? Hopefully not that many were that naive. Only 15 years have passed, the disparity in wealth is HUGE, SA is an industrialized country on one hand and a 3rd world country on the other hand. You will need to educate, democratize and fight corruption as a nation not as a people.

[playtym]

You are proving my point... "R/cst"...im ranting about the repetitive non-ending threads which only have one agenda and that is to show people how much better "some" had it before....

If you don't like the response that some of these threads produce then that is your problem. :roll:


OK, I'll post something positive about South Africa then.

It's almost the end of the week and my house hasn't been broken into, and I haven't been hijacked. YAY! woot

[Salman]

Salman, ever heard it said "an open mind's a good thing, but careful not to open it too much, lest your brains fall out?"

Don't make out like you know what the situation in SA is currently (or was) like, when all you've viewed it through is the agenda-filled and liberally biased European press. The plight of the South African black man has never been worse than it currently is.

Never heard of that expression and it have a "ignorance is a bliss" cling to it. I don't pretend to be an expert, far from it.

To the obviously white south africans in this thread:
What is it that you want your country to do when it comes to the racial tentions? Do you want your country to be fully democratic or do you feel that in "real life" democracy is not yet possible in SA?

[Rudolph]

See now that is a constructive reply Im glad to answer. I don't doubt your word when you say things are bad in SA. I think you will have to struggle to preserve the rights that we here take for granted. How many in SA thought that you will live happy ever after in 1994? Hopefully not that many were that naive. Only 15 years have passed, the disparity in wealth is HUGE, SA is an industrialized country on one hand and a 3rd world country on the other hand. You will need to educate, democratize and fight corruption as a nation not as a people.

The current leaders get the majority of votes with ease. People believe them, and are willing to do whatever is asked of them. Yet, the ANC's record proves that they have little intention of helping "their" people. At least most of the white, coloured and Indian people have the means to help each other, but who can the millions living in poverty depend on? Their government is failing them, and they don't have the knowledge of how different things could be if they raised objections and voted for other parties... Hell, I am seriously considering voting for the new ANC breakaway party COPE. What you say is true, there are about 15 million people of all races living in a first world country, and then another 30 million living in poverty. It does not make me feel good when I drive around and see that every single day...

[Salman]

OK, I'll post something positive about South Africa then.

It's almost the end of the week and my house hasn't been broken into, and I haven't been hijacked. YAY! woot

There ya go, now maybe (if you are lucky) you can add that in 10 years the risk of being hijacked will decrease. p-)

[Salman]

The current leaders get the majority of votes with ease. People believe them, and are willing to do whatever is asked of them. Yet, the ANC's record proves that they have little intention of helping "their" people. At least most of the white, coloured and Indian people have the means to help each other, but who can the millions living in poverty depend on? Their government is failing them, and they don't have the knowledge of how different things could be if they raised objections and voted for other parties... Hell, I am seriously considering voting for the new ANC breakaway party COPE. What you say is true, there are about 15 million people of all races living in a first world country, and then another 30 million living in poverty. It does not make me feel good when I drive around and see that every single day...

Hopefully people will begin to care less about a candidates race and more about what he/she will do for them. I guess the memory of a darker past is still fresh enough for people to swallow the failures of the people they elect. Don't you think that even black south africans will be fed up by a deterioating economy (if that translates into a personal deterioation of their own economy) in the long run? The next major concern that people tend to care about beside liberty is the economy. Is there no party in SA that have a multi-racial image that can actually challange "ANC"?

[Rudolph]

Never heard of that expression and it have a "ignorance is a bliss" cling to it. I don't pretend to be an expert, far from it.

To the obviously white south africans in this thread:
What is it that you want your country to do when it comes to the racial tentions? Do you want your country to be fully democratic or do you feel that in "real life" democracy is not yet possible in SA?

I'm not saying all, but many in the apartheid government were practising realpolitik while wishing to do good. Some were earnestly trying to raise a black middle-class capable of eventually running the country, and by '94 there were a few million non-whites as such-that is simple fact. But the Cold War and the heavy financial strains imposed on us by the international community made matters very difficult. We only became a republic in '61, and white and black only came under the same flag in 1910. That is not that long ago, and back then there were no educated black SAfricans except for a handful educated by the missionaries.

Then the black population also more than quadrupled during apartheid, while the urbanised white population did not grow nearly as much. This made matters of becoming equal extremely hard. We did our best, but had never had the opportunity to practise the policies without outside interference. Also, before the ANC riots, etc. in '61 I think it's quite clear that we did not use any violence as a general rule, we were only ever reactionary. Later on there was chaos though... To portray us as these savage rednecks, as Hollywood does, is misleading and doesn't hold up to real life. That scene in Goodbye Bafana where the white policemen simply start whipping black people in public!! I didn't live in the 1960's but I sure as hell think Americans would take exception if I portrayed that as a normalcy in the USA of the 1960's - same with us.

[Obelix]

Hopefully people will begin to care less about a candidates race and more about what he/she will do for them.Nope, not gonna happen, not in my lifetime, probably not in my kids. It is too easy to work up fundamentalist support with fiery slogans and empty promises amongst the uneducated masses, and when you've never had anything, continuing to have nothing makes very littly difference to your attitude.

Also, black allegiance is firstly race, and then tribally based. The vast majority of blacks will vote only for a black candidate, and not a white, indian or coloured. It is secondly tribal based, whereby a Zulu votes for a Zulu, and so on, hence the swell in Zulu support for the ANC recently despite them being traditionally a Xhosa party. Zuma (ANC president) is a Zulu.


I'm not saying all, but many in the apartheid government were practising realpolitik while wishing to do good. Some were earnestly trying to raise a black middle-class capable of eventually running the country

I think the term for the above concept was "parallel development" Rudolph, meaning maintenence of Western living standards for white people, while gradually bringing the black majority up to this same level.

[Rudolph]

I think the term for the above concept was "parallel development" Rudolph, meaning maintenence of Western living standards for white people, while gradually bringing the black majority up to this same level.

Before someone else says it, I know for the majority of black SAfricans the reality was far from equal in re to white SAfricans' living standards. I have no illusions about that. But those who accuse of us purposely fascilitating such a situation, to you I say you don't know the Afrikaner!

[R/cst]

Salman
You are proving my point... "R/cst"...im ranting about the repetitive non-ending threads which only have one agenda and that is to show people how much better "some" had it before....



My thread has nothing to do with showing how good it was pre 1994, I am ranting about a illegal cultural practice that is condemned by the majority of people in SA both black, white coloured, Chinese, Indian and Arab.

At no point have I said that it was better pre 1994, I did say though that is probably unreported in that era

I am not crying out for the return of apartheid, I never really experienced it fully since I was only 17 in 1994 and I had black classmates since about 1992.

I think you are judging all the white South Africans based on your view of pre 1994 whites, while there are some who do go about calling for a return to the pre 1994 era, the vast majority of us just want to get on with our lives the same as everyone else in SA.

Yes I do have issues with the current government and with some of my African brothers, that doesn’t make me racist.

I do have a problem with a public health service that is falling to pieces (It worked well even in the black areas pre 1994)

I do have a problem with black protesters burning down two medical clinics in their own area while protesting a new transport system that is been introduced (bus rapid transport system)

I do have a problem with black taxis driving badly and killing innocent people of all colours.

I do have a problem with corrupt government officials and the how the government shields them from justice just because they were pre 1994 comrades

The list is quite long

I have seen the abject poverty in the townships yet on TV I see fat cat politicians living it up while their people suffer.

I have seen black people asking that they be served by whites because they know that they will get a better level of service than they would get from blacks.

Change is needed but it is very difficult for any party to challenge the ANC

At the moment our main challengers to the ANC are:
ID – Independent Democrats (Patricia Delil ex PAC) they have a good Agenda and are multiracial
COPE – Congress of the People ( Ex ANC members) New party, multi racial with a good agenda
DA – Democratiec Alliance – Official opposition main supporters are whites and coloured although and increasing number of blacks are joining, they were also the official opposition pre 1994