Two Ukrainians Survive Abu Ghraib, Describe Experience

[OB Kenobi]

Some of you might remember these two guys, if you remember that Ukrainian tanker that was trying to smuggle oil shortly after the occupation began. Guess where they jailed them for this? :cantbeli:

Ukrainians were ''treated like dogs'' in Abu Ghraib prison

Kiev, June 23 (DPA) Two seamen recently freed from Iraq's notorious Abu Ghraib prison have told the Ukrainian official responsible for securing their release that U.S. guards at the facility treated them like dogs'', but much better than Iraqi prisoners.

Mykola Mazurenko and Ivan Soschenko, respectively the Ukrainian captain and first mate of the tanker ship Navstar-1, had been incarcerated at the facility near Baghdad since last October. They were found guilty by an Iraqi court of having attempted to smuggle 3,500 tonnes of diesel fuel from the country.

Ukrainian diplomatic efforts secured their release on June 16.

Nina Karpacheva, a Ukrainian legislator and chief ombudsman for the Kiev government, interviewed both sailors prior to their transfer to a detention facility in Kiev. As prisoners completing a sentence, they are not allowed to give interviews to the Ukrainian media.

Both described to Karpacheva and other Ukrainian officials widespread violent, demeaning, and apparently illegal behaviour by U.S. military guards at the prison, Karpacheva said.

It is clear their stay in the Iraqi prison was a truly horrible experience, Karpacheva told UT-1 television.

Mazurenko and Soschenko were held in a communal cell built for some 20 inmates, but inhabited by more than 60 Iraqis detained on a variety of charges.

Their cellmates were a mix of former Iraqi military personnel, civilians suspected of anti-American activities and common criminals, the Cegodnya newspaper reported.

U.S. military warders regularly used tear gas at the slightest provocation to control the inmates. As a result of the crowded conditions, innocent prisoners repeatedly were gassed.

A official at the Lukianovsky prison in central Kiev told Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa that an initial medical examination of Mazurenko showed evidence of serious lung damage, which aggravated his asthma and placed increased stress on his heart.

Karpacheva said tear gas had injured Mazurenkos respiratory system so severely that while she interviewed him he seemed to be trying to cough his lungs inside out.

Mazurenko also suffers from diabetes. During his stay at Abu Ghraib he complained of only having access to the minimum amount of insulin necessary to keep him alive. U.S. officials gave Mazurenko and Soschenko a weeks' worth of medicine gratis on the day of their release.

[Argyll]

Big freakin deal.............they were common criminals,Prison is not supposed to be the Hilton hotel...........it's a place of punishment,I wish wankers like this would quit bleating........."commit the crime,you do the time"

In Ukraine they would have been treated a damn site worse off.

[fdt]

Big freakin deal.............they were common criminals,Prison is not supposed to be the Hilton hotel...........it's a place of punishment,I wish wankers like this would quit bleating........."commit the crime,you do the time"

In Ukraine they would have been treated a damn site worse off.Pls ARGYLL... keep up Your moral ground...
U know sh*t about Ukrainian prisons...

[Argyll]

Big freakin deal.............they were common criminals,Prison is not supposed to be the Hilton hotel...........it's a place of punishment,I wish wankers like this would quit bleating........."commit the crime,you do the time"

In Ukraine they would have been treated a damn site worse off.Pls ARGYLL... keep up Your moral ground...

what do you mean by that?

Convicted criminals,like these were,incase you forgot they were caught stealing Iraqi oil,should not expect a cushy time in Prison,you think they would have been treated better if it were in a Turkish Prison,Saudi Prison, where theft is also punishable with amputation,a Greek prison,or anyy other prison ...........just cause it's Abu Graibh......it's another media bull**** exploitation damning the US Authorities

I see you edited the original post..........so you're an expert on Ukranian prisons then?..........just how the hell can you say for sure they would have been treated better in a Ukrainian Nick?

[fdt]

Big freakin deal.............they were common criminals,Prison is not supposed to be the Hilton hotel...........it's a place of punishment,I wish wankers like this would quit bleating........."commit the crime,you do the time"

In Ukraine they would have been treated a damn site worse off.Pls ARGYLL... keep up Your moral ground...

what do you mean by that?

Convicted criminals,like these were,incase you forgot they were caught stealing Iraqi oil,should not expect a cushy time in Prison,you think they would have been treated better if it were in a Turkish Prison,Saudi Prison, where theft is also punishable with amputation,a Greek prison,or anyy other prison ...........just cause it's Abu Graibh......it's another media bull**** exploitation damning the US AuthoritiesI mean the simplest thing in the World... When You come back from war, You should be able to tell ALL Your experiences and thoughts to You kids... Without unnecessary anger and emotional burden... You know what You are there for... YTou are adult enough to know what the World should be... What do U wanna teach Your kids...? What will You tell'em? What attitude shall You pass them?

[wiking]

Big freakin deal.............they were common criminals,Prison is not supposed to be the Hilton hotel...........it's a place of punishment,I wish wankers like this would quit bleating........."commit the crime,you do the time"

In Ukraine they would have been treated a damn site worse off.Pls ARGYLL... keep up Your moral ground...

what do you mean by that?

Convicted criminals,like these were,incase you forgot they were caught stealing Iraqi oil,

Not stealing, smuggling. There is a difference.
The ship was incarcerated in Baghdad harbor, oil transactions are payed for long in advance of the oil being pumped onto the boat, so technically the oil was their property. And the last time i checked you can't steal your own belongings. Correct me if i'm wrong here.

[fdt]

Big freakin deal.............they were common criminals,Prison is not supposed to be the Hilton hotel...........it's a place of punishment,I wish wankers like this would quit bleating........."commit the crime,you do the time"

In Ukraine they would have been treated a damn site worse off.Pls ARGYLL... keep up Your moral ground...

what do you mean by that?

Convicted criminals,like these were,incase you forgot they were caught stealing Iraqi oil,

Not stealing, smuggling. There is a difference.
The ship was incarcerated in Baghdad harbor, oil transactions are payed for long in advance of the oil being pumped onto the boat, so technically the oil was their property. And the last time i checked you can't steal your own belongings. Correct me if i'm wrong here.Well, .... if the stealing or smuggling (no difference 4 me - I am lawyer) smth is a good reason to break smbs human rights... then we are in a new era...

[Argyll]

WTF are you on about?

You are speaking in riddles,point I made was that these 2 Ukranians were "convicted criminals".and were sent to prison,Abu Graibh is the main prison here in Iraq........see if you can figure this,they were "criminals",you break the law in any country,you face the consequences........just like these 2........are we supposed to feel sorry for them because they broke the law?.........big deal,if they were caught with drugs in Thailand they'd be executed by now........this is just another media orientated case to undermine the US Authority in Abu Graibh,otherwise the story deserves no other attention........they were criminals..........criminals go to jail...........they are not supposed to go to holiday camps for recreational pleasure........you go to prison to be punished.............and these 2 did....so what is the big deal about them?

[fdt]

What *****n law? Whose law? Law where in a normal country You would be fined and here You are deprived of Your human rights? C'mon...

[Argyll]

Big freakin deal.............they were common criminals,Prison is not supposed to be the Hilton hotel...........it's a place of punishment,I wish wankers like this would quit bleating........."commit the crime,you do the time"

In Ukraine they would have been treated a damn site worse off.Pls ARGYLL... keep up Your moral ground...

what do you mean by that?

Convicted criminals,like these were,incase you forgot they were caught stealing Iraqi oil,

Not stealing, smuggling. There is a difference.
The ship was incarcerated in Baghdad harbor, oil transactions are payed for long in advance of the oil being pumped onto the boat, so technically the oil was their property. And the last time i checked you can't steal your own belongings. Correct me if i'm wrong here.

Are you for real?..........Smuggling is a crime,and if they bought the oil legit,then there would have been no crime,who owned the oil,paying for something that is not the owners in the 1st place is still dealing with "stole" property........Baghdad doesn't have a harbour mate,I'm looking into the Tigris right now,and there are no harbours or ships sailing up and down the Tigris,or have been for years.

[fdt]

What *****n law? Whose law? Law where in a normal country You would be fined and here You are deprived of Your human rights? C'mon... In Iraq there are NO TAXES nor DUTIES at all.... They were smuggling...? So what are doing now all the "Iraqui foreign traders" now? They are importing/exporting goods FREELY. Two Ukrainians were caught importing Iraqi oil... well, lets crush'em... Everybody knows they Ukrainians are used to unhuman treatment... it's a *****n excuse 4 us.... We are not doing anything worse than their own govt... Piss on them, they are fokin criminals... Do U know how much is average Ukrainian earning a month...? 100 bucks... Yeah... they are animals... [fokin angry]
For those who don't know there are more than 1000 Ukrainian troops in Iraq... risking their life for what...?

[Argyll]

What f****n law? Whose law? Law where in a normal country You would be fined and here You are deprived of Your human rights? C'mon...

What part of they were tried by an Iraqi court don't you get?
There are courts operating everyday over here..........where do you live.and has that place never broke Human rights?

I'll try this one more time and see if your tree hugging liberal Bull**** can comprehend this story........They committed a crime,they went to a harsh prison,they got released........big deal.......it happens the world over.look at any Prison system in the ME and there are criminals punished for what they did,in other countries criminals and those convicted still get stoned to death,you think HR violations don't happen all over the world?Slopping out in the UK has been deemed a breach of HR......does it still happen yes..........are we supposed to feel sorry for criminals who had a hard time in a notorious jail.........not on your life.

[fdt]

What f****n law? Whose law? Law where in a normal country You would be fined and here You are deprived of Your human rights? C'mon...

What part of they were tried by an Iraqi court don't you get?
There are courts operating everyday over here..........where do you live.and has that place never broke Human rights?

I'll try this one more time and see if your tree hugging liberal Bull**** can comprehend this story........They committed a crime,they went to a harsh prison,they got released........big deal.......it happens the world over.look at any Prison system in the ME and there are criminals punished for what they did,in other countries criminals and those convicted still get stoned to death,you think HR violations don't happen all over the world?Slopping out in the UK has been deemed a breach of HR......does it still happen yes..........are we supposed to feel sorry for criminals who had a hard time in a notorious jail.........not on your life.If You think, as U written... so write it's WRONG... It happens but, it's WRONG... don't try to make impression it's normal.... beccuse You're asking for this sh*t to come to Your own backyard... Liberal BS You say? I say... when it's not necessary, don't bevave as U wouldn't like anyone to do the same 2 You... Soon there will be a transfer of power in Iraq... Wanna get exposed to the same treatment if someting goes wrong? Wogs won't be more humanitarian than current authorities are....

[Operation Ivy]

Well the title of this thread is complete bull****, its not like we killed hundreds of prsioners in there

[Khabbi]

I dont like what went on there but "Two Ukrainians Survive Abu Ghraib" makes it sound like a deathcamp from WW2


my point , its not a deathcamp

[fdt]

Well the title of this thread is complete bull****, its not like we killed hundreds of prsioners in thereIn US, every criminal sc*m is proitected by US judicial system... In occupied country it doesn't work... That's the main difference... It's simply smth like "Midnight Express" case... If You want Your citizens to be treated same way go on...

[fdt]

I dont like what went on there but "Two Ukrainians Survive Abu Ghraib" makes it sound like a deathcamp from WW2


my point , its not a deathcampBeen there? Have anything to back You statement? No need to have a nazi death camp to make people a trash...

[Argyll]

What f****n law? Whose law? Law where in a normal country You would be fined and here You are deprived of Your human rights? C'mon...

What part of they were tried by an Iraqi court don't you get?
There are courts operating everyday over here..........where do you live.and has that place never broke Human rights?

I'll try this one more time and see if your tree hugging liberal Bull**** can comprehend this story........They committed a crime,they went to a harsh prison,they got released........big deal.......it happens the world over.look at any Prison system in the ME and there are criminals punished for what they did,in other countries criminals and those convicted still get stoned to death,you think HR violations don't happen all over the world?Slopping out in the UK has been deemed a breach of HR......does it still happen yes..........are we supposed to feel sorry for criminals who had a hard time in a notorious jail.........not on your life.If You think, as U written... so write it's WRONG... It happens but, it's WRONG... don't try to make impression it's normal.... beccuse You're asking for this sh*t to come to Your own backyard... Liberal BS You say? I say... when it's not necessary, don't bevave as U wouldn't like anyone to do the same 2 You... Soon there will be a transfer of power in Iraq... Wanna get exposed to the same treatment if someting goes wrong? Wogs won't be more humanitarian than current authorities are....

I see we have the token racist here,hey we know full well that if we break the law here in Iraq after the 30th we face an Iraqi prison.......simple soloution........don't break it!!!
Like I've pointed out repeatedly...........they were convicted criminals.....big fokin deal they got a hard tim in a prison.........prisons are not supposed to be about making pottery and love beads,it's a punishment..........stop crying like a little boo ha school girl about this story.
The difference between these guys and me is that I have not commited a crime,and I have not been sentenced for a crime,so using me as a comparison is a waste of time,I'm not the criminal here........they were.

And again I'll point out the Human rights Violations happen world wide,not just in this prison,hell I'm willing to bet your local incarceration facility ain't Lily white when it comes to Human rights?

[fdt]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3689355.stm

Not so long ago, there was a famous case of Bulgarian nurses that were sentenced to death because they've.... deliberately infected more than 400 Libyan children with AIDS... They had a "decent" trial and were "just" sentenced........ acc to a bull**** charges... but they were citizens of "not important" country... Who in the world has opposed? Romania and Bulgaria ....

[fdt]

What f****n law? Whose law? Law where in a normal country You would be fined and here You are deprived of Your human rights? C'mon...

What part of they were tried by an Iraqi court don't you get?
There are courts operating everyday over here..........where do you live.and has that place never broke Human rights?

I'll try this one more time and see if your tree hugging liberal Bull**** can comprehend this story........They committed a crime,they went to a harsh prison,they got released........big deal.......it happens the world over.look at any Prison system in the ME and there are criminals punished for what they did,in other countries criminals and those convicted still get stoned to death,you think HR violations don't happen all over the world?Slopping out in the UK has been deemed a breach of HR......does it still happen yes..........are we supposed to feel sorry for criminals who had a hard time in a notorious jail.........not on your life.If You think, as U written... so write it's WRONG... It happens but, it's WRONG... don't try to make impression it's normal.... beccuse You're asking for this sh*t to come to Your own backyard... Liberal BS You say? I say... when it's not necessary, don't bevave as U wouldn't like anyone to do the same 2 You... Soon there will be a transfer of power in Iraq... Wanna get exposed to the same treatment if someting goes wrong? Wogs won't be more humanitarian than current authorities are....

I see we have the token racist here,hey we know full well that if we break the law here in Iraq after the 30th we face an Iraqi prison.......simple soloution........don't break it!!!
Like I've pointed out repeatedly...........they were convicted criminals.....big fokin deal they got a hard tim in a prison.........prisons are not supposed to be about making pottery and love beads,it's a punishment..........stop crying like a little boo ha school girl about this story.
The difference between these guys and me is that I have not commited a crime,and I have not been sentenced for a crime,so using me as a comparison is a waste of time,I'm not the criminal here........they were.

And again I'll point out the Human rights Violations happen world wide,not just in this prison,hell I'm willing to bet your local incarceration facility ain't Lily white when it comes to Human rights?
1. U say don't break the law... everything's gonna be OK.
I say; gimme a stable and reasonable law system that I will be able to uphold... Is smth like this in Iraq?

2. I know our local prisons very well, I've been even assisting our judges in sentencing the convicts as they were applying for leaves... Bn there done that...

3. You haven't commited a crime... Will this prevent the wogs' authorities to arrest U when trhey will like to do this? C'mon... thgis time U think like junior...

4. Convicted criminals...should be treated as criminals... not as animals... that's my bottomline.

[Argyll]

I dont like what went on there but "Two Ukrainians Survive Abu Ghraib" makes it sound like a deathcamp from WW2


my point , its not a deathcampBeen there? Have anything to back You statement? No need to have a nazi death camp to make people a trash...

More to the point have you been there?
If not then you're in no position to make comments like the one against Khabbi,what's getting you so tearful about this anyway............criminals deserve to get punished do they not?
So lets just recap here,these guys were caught,tried and sentenced prior to the war?And yet they mention nothing about the conditions under Saddam?.........call me suspicious or what,but I'm willing to bet they got treated a damn sight better under the Americans,or were they incarcerated by the Iraqi's during the war for commiting a crime in Iraq?,or were they incarcerated for commiting a crime under US occupation ?

[mack pl]

..they were convicted criminals.....big fokin deal they got a hard tim in a prison.........prisons are not supposed to be about making pottery and love beads,it's a punishment..

true, but Im guessing british prisons arent so fukin bad as AbuGhraib ;)

pozdro :)

[M1A2U2]

how come u never hear about other bad prisons in the world?

[Argyll]

What f****n law? Whose law? Law where in a normal country You would be fined and here You are deprived of Your human rights? C'mon...

What part of they were tried by an Iraqi court don't you get?
There are courts operating everyday over here..........where do you live.and has that place never broke Human rights?

I'll try this one more time and see if your tree hugging liberal Bull**** can comprehend this story........They committed a crime,they went to a harsh prison,they got released........big deal.......it happens the world over.look at any Prison system in the ME and there are criminals punished for what they did,in other countries criminals and those convicted still get stoned to death,you think HR violations don't happen all over the world?Slopping out in the UK has been deemed a breach of HR......does it still happen yes..........are we supposed to feel sorry for criminals who had a hard time in a notorious jail.........not on your life.If You think, as U written... so write it's WRONG... It happens but, it's WRONG... don't try to make impression it's normal.... beccuse You're asking for this sh*t to come to Your own backyard... Liberal BS You say? I say... when it's not necessary, don't bevave as U wouldn't like anyone to do the same 2 You... Soon there will be a transfer of power in Iraq... Wanna get exposed to the same treatment if someting goes wrong? Wogs won't be more humanitarian than current authorities are....

I see we have the token racist here,hey we know full well that if we break the law here in Iraq after the 30th we face an Iraqi prison.......simple soloution........don't break it!!!
Like I've pointed out repeatedly...........they were convicted criminals.....big fokin deal they got a hard tim in a prison.........prisons are not supposed to be about making pottery and love beads,it's a punishment..........stop crying like a little boo ha school girl about this story.
The difference between these guys and me is that I have not commited a crime,and I have not been sentenced for a crime,so using me as a comparison is a waste of time,I'm not the criminal here........they were.

And again I'll point out the Human rights Violations happen world wide,not just in this prison,hell I'm willing to bet your local incarceration facility ain't Lily white when it comes to Human rights?
1. U say don't break the law... everything's gonna be OK.
I say; gimme a stable and reasonable law system that I will be able to uphold... Is smth like this in Iraq?

How do you think these guys ended up in Prison?There is a form of Law and order here.........come and see for yourself

2. I know our local prisons very well, I've been even assisting our judges in sentencing the convicts as they were applying for leaves... Bn there done that...

Ever convicted an innocent man?........cause they all claim they're innocent don't they....have you thought about asking the Saudi's ,Turks,Yemeni's.....or any Muslim countries to change their Laws just because it doesn't suit you? :cantbeli:

3. You haven't commited a crime... Will this prevent the wogs' authorities to arrest U when trhey will like to do this? C'mon... thgis time U think like junior...

Junior...... rofl ,straight out of Law school are we?Try living and working abroad and respecting the Laws of these countries 1st before making a complete **** out of yourself,I've been world wide and have never broken a Law.......but you sir are breaking one right now by using racist comments,and it's also against forum rules,so before you start preaching morality and Human rights to me read the forum rules......coz you've broke them twice...Racist!

4. Convicted criminals...should be treated as criminals... not as animals... that's my bottomline.

Why don't you write to those nice countries and ask them to stop violating Human rights in their establishments,before coming over all high and mighty over this particular story,some of those convicted are no ,more than animals themselves,tell you what,the next Child rapist that gets convicted in your country,invite him over to babysit your kids the next time you go on holiday,or the Rapist who murdered his victims to come over and give your wife a pedicure............get real,it ain't gonna happen,and there's nothing you nor I can do about it,it's been happening for Genearations and will continue happening

[Argyll]

..they were convicted criminals.....big fokin deal they got a hard tim in a prison.........prisons are not supposed to be about making pottery and love beads,it's a punishment..

true, but Im guessing british prisons arent so fukin bad as AbuGhraib ;)

pozdro :)

Then you've never heard of Peterhead then,or Barlinnie?
2 of the most notorious jails ever to been run in Scotland,and yes there have been incidents in both during the 60's and 70's that made Abu Graibh look normal..... ;)

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Seems that our definition of "abuse" is slipping. This article says nothing. They were not hit. They were not formed into a naked human pyramid. They were not put in stress positions. Threy were not barked at by dogs. They were not sprayed by hoses. It boils down to; "we didn't like prison".

Their specific complaints?
-it was crowded
-we had to share a cell with nasty people
-the nasty people had to be controlled with teargas
-one guy's medical condition made this unpleasant.

Well then, here's an idea - if you have a delicate medical condition...why not avoid stealing 3500 tons of fuel from the Iraqi people? See, if you get caught, you may wind up in prison! They may not show a satisfactory level of concern for your medical problems.

See, I, as a human, living on planet Earth, know that prison sucks. This is why I have scrupulously avoided going to prison. You don't have freedom of association. You are put with people you may not like. You are treated like cattle. None of this is a surprise to me.

IMHO the smuggling vs theft argument is useless - the victim here (as usual) was the Iraqi people. So while the tanker people may have "purchased" the fuel from the terminal, it was not a legal purchase - it's akin to paying a thief for stolen goods. They gambled, and lost.

[mack pl]

..they were convicted criminals.....big fokin deal they got a hard tim in a prison.........prisons are not supposed to be about making pottery and love beads,it's a punishment..

true, but Im guessing british prisons arent so fukin bad as AbuGhraib ;)

pozdro :)

Then you've never heard of Peterhead then,or Barlinnie?
2 of the most notorious jails ever to been run in Scotland,and yes there have been incidents in both during the 60's and 70's that made Abu Graibh look normal..... ;)
I "know" only Maze(sp.) prison, for terrorists(IRA etc.). Im guessing, it's not nice place too ;)

[fdt]

14 yrs of professional experience... Enough?

Know Your attitude... It's a Policeman's attitude against the judge's. olicemen always complain about judges' "liberal" (sort of we catch they let them loose) approach... Judges always complain about Police's "cowboy" approach regardless of the laws and rules... that makes them to let the scumba*s free.

IMHO, if such a "grave" crime as smuggling in a country without duties, would be commited by Britons or americans... they wouldn't be taken to Abu Ghraib and ****ted on... but given a warning... or smth like this...

[UkrainianAmerican]

The 2 smuggling retards should just shut the f*ck up or give us some SOLID evidence that they were 'abused'.

[Argyll]

14 yrs of professional experience... Enough?

Know Your attitude... It's a Policeman's attitude against the judge's. olicemen always complain about judges' "liberal" (sort of we catch they let them loose) approach... Judges always complain about Police's "cowboy" approach regardless of the laws and rules... that makes them to let the scumba*s free.

IMHO, if such a "grave" crime as smuggling in a country without duties, would be commited by Britons or americans... they wouldn't be taken to Abu Ghraib and ****ted on... but given a warning... or smth like this...

The point is they commited the crime in Iraq,where else do you think they'd serve their sentence?.........smuggling is grave,it's still a crime and punisheable,who and what do you think these criminals were buying it for,their own private use,or to sell on the blackmarket commiting yet another crime.........extortion.....
This goes to show you know **** mate,there was a few Britains who served in detention under Saddam,in fact a few Westerners have,and probaly in Abu graibh too

[He219]

Hey, they're Ukranian Oil Smugglers, cought stealing Iraqi Oil revenues. They may have purchased the Oil on the Black Market, but if it was legitimate, why bother smuggling it?

They were cheating the Iraqis and the system of reconstruction funds. So where do they serve their time; Abu Ghraib or some other Gulag?

Is it any suprise that they resent the US for incarcerating them? Is it any surprise that some if not many Ukranians are not fond of the United States or the Coalitions' efforts in rebuilding Iraq?

OB 'Wanker' One should have just written:
Ukranians survive Abu Ghraib Death Camp (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18049&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=39b89e4c5b1ca7a88472296cf5be56b4) ...
.. to complete the polarization of his posted commentary!
;)

[budanski]

If they thought Abu Ghraib was bad today, they should be lucky it wasnt under the last management (http://www.aei.org/events/eventID.844,filter.all/event_detail.asp).

[wiking]

Seems that our definition of "abuse" is slipping. This article says nothing. They were not hit. They were not formed into a naked human pyramid. They were not put in stress positions. Threy were not barked at by dogs. They were not sprayed by hoses. It boils down to; "we didn't like prison".

Their specific complaints?
-it was crowded
-we had to share a cell with nasty people
-the nasty people had to be controlled with teargas
-one guy's medical condition made this unpleasant.

Well then, here's an idea - if you have a delicate medical condition...why not avoid stealing 3500 tons of fuel from the Iraqi people? See, if you get caught, you may wind up in prison! They may not show a satisfactory level of concern for your medical problems.

See, I, as a human, living on planet Earth, know that prison sucks. This is why I have scrupulously avoided going to prison. You don't have freedom of association. You are put with people you may not like. You are treated like cattle. None of this is a surprise to me.

IMHO the smuggling vs theft argument is useless - the victim here (as usual) was the Iraqi people. So while the tanker people may have "purchased" the fuel from the terminal, it was not a legal purchase - it's akin to paying a thief for stolen goods. They gambled, and lost.

Mate, abuse is so much more than just physical violence. Physical violence isn't even the worst part, because that's the Psychological abuse.

[Marsuitor]

Mate, abuse is so much more than just physical violence. Physical violence isn't even the worst part, because that's the Psychological abuse.
How would you know? Are you trying to say that sleep deprivation, threat of being killed, having dogs bark in your face, stress positions for longer periods etc. etc. is worse than having your teeth pulled out, your arms and legs broken, shock therapy in your ********s etc. etc.?
I do have some very basic firsthand knowledge of what psychological abuse is, it's not fun, even if it's only part of an excercise. I'm pretty sure fingernail pulling is less, although i've never tried that.

[usa320]

This is gay...people, prison is supposed to be bad, its not supposed to be a fun place. god damn people are so dumb.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Mate, abuse is so much more than just physical violence. Physical violence isn't even the worst part, because that's the Psychological abuse.

This is my point. Who's to say what "psychological abuse" is?

These two fools never said they were singled out and psychologically tortured. They didn't go to solitary - they were never even subjected to interrogation. So what psychological abuse did they suffer? They were unhappy because they were in a prison?

Another example of psycological abuse could be - when Kenobi titles this thread "2 Ukranians Survive Abu Ghraib.." this implies that it's a death camp & that they were under constant threat of death. Nonsense. I mean, no...bring Kenobi up on charges of abuse!

Just being in prison is considered abuse by some. In the US, we had a bunch of pointy headed intellectuals tell us that it was "abusive" to make prison inmates wear uniforms. Oh the horror of being stigmatized!

Our notions of abuse degrade every day. You know what? The knowledge that I will someday die, no matter what I do, is psychological abuse. God is torturing me every day be constantly reminding me that I'll die no matter what. Life is imperfect and unfair - looks to me like some folks have unrealistic expectations. Prison will be unpleasant, no matter how you slice it - it's punishment for chrissakes - what do they expect?

[RavenW]

fdt, I recommend you not to speak about Ukrainian prisons.
Argyll is absolutely right.

Unlike you, I lived there for 16 years. My friend spent 1 year in Ykrainian prison and 6 months in Ukrainian "Labor-Recovering Colony" (Labour camp).

Ykrainian prisons indeed harsher than Abu Graib.

BTW, ви розмовляiте украiньскою мовою? Якще вы розумiете менi- тоди добре! :)

[UkrainianAmerican]

fdt, I recommend you not to speak about Ukrainian prisons.
Argyll is absolutely right.

Unlike you, I lived there for 16 years. My friend spent 1 year in Ykrainian prison and 6 months in Ukrainian "Labor-Recovering Colony" (Labour camp).

Ykrainian prisons indeed harsher than Abu Graib.

BTW, ви розмовляiте украiньскою мовою? Якще вы розумiете менi- тоди добре! :)
Hlopche! :lol:
Ya iz UkraYINI, no ne govoru po ukrainsky move. :(
Do pobachene.

[100_Percent_HOOAH]

Big freakin deal.............they were common criminals,Prison is not supposed to be the Hilton hotel...........it's a place of punishment,I wish wankers like this would quit bleating........."commit the crime,you do the time"

In Ukraine they would have been treated a damn site worse off.Pls ARGYLL... keep up Your moral ground...

what do you mean by that?

Convicted criminals,like these were,incase you forgot they were caught stealing Iraqi oil,should not expect a cushy time in Prison,you think they would have been treated better if it were in a Turkish Prison,Saudi Prison, where theft is also punishable with amputation,a Greek prison,or anyy other prison ...........just cause it's Abu Graibh......it's another media bull**** exploitation damning the US Authorities

I see you edited the original post..........so you're an expert on Ukranian prisons then?..........just how the hell can you say for sure they would have been treated better in a Ukrainian Nick?

Damn good point Arglly.

[admar2]

It is clear their stay in the Iraqi prison was a truly horrible experience, Karpacheva told UT-1 television


truly horrible indeed,


anything like having your head chopped off?


:bash:


I'm getting sick of hearing about Abu Gharaib.

[fdt]

fdt, I recommend you not to speak about Ukrainian prisons.
Argyll is absolutely right.

Unlike you, I lived there for 16 years. My friend spent 1 year in Ykrainian prison and 6 months in Ukrainian "Labor-Recovering Colony" (Labour camp).

Ykrainian prisons indeed harsher than Abu Graib.

BTW, ви розмовляiте украiньскою мовою? Якще вы розумiете менi- тоди добре! :)Nie mówie po ukrainsku, ale rozumiem troche.

BTW It's a fact that when Ukrainians are sentenced for smth in Poland they always apply to serve their sentence in Polish prison (they have option to choose their homeland prison)... :(

[RavenW]

Pan rozumie po polski? ;)

ya buv y Stare Miasto v Warshavi

garne miasto :)

do vidzenia woot

Bolik i Lelik! 4 Tankist and Dog! ;)

No passo ran! p-)

[fdt]

pan rozumie po polski? ;)

ya buv y Stare Miasto v Warshavi

garne miasto :)Ja tam nie zaden PAN ;) Prosty chlop... ot i szto. Kiev i Lviv harne miasta... :hug:

[RavenW]

pan rozumie po polski? ;)

ya buv y Stare Miasto v Warshavi

garne miasto :)Ja tam nie zaden PAN ;) Prosty chlop... ot i szto.

:lol: ;)

[mack pl]

pan rozumie po polski? ;)

ya buv y Stare Miasto v Warshavi

garne miasto :)Ja tam nie zaden PAN ;) Prosty chlop... ot i szto.

:lol: ;)

:lol: Mój dziadek był ze Lwowa(Ukrainiec) :lol:
Pozdrawiam serdecznie Rawen :hug: :lol:

BTW holly ****, Argyll will ban us all for this languge p-)

[fdt]

pan rozumie po polski? ;)

ya buv y Stare Miasto v Warshavi

garne miasto :)Ja tam nie zaden PAN ;) Prosty chlop... ot i szto.

:lol: ;)

:lol: Mój dziadek byl ze Lwowa(Ukrainiec) :lol:
Pozdrawiam serdecznie Rawen :hug: :lol:

BTW holly ****, Argyll will ban us all for this languge p-)A moja babcia spod Hrubieszowa... Ech braty... :hug:

[mack pl]

pan rozumie po polski? ;)

ya buv y Stare Miasto v Warshavi

garne miasto :)Ja tam nie zaden PAN ;) Prosty chlop... ot i szto.

:lol: ;)

:lol: Mój dziadek byl ze Lwowa(Ukrainiec) :lol:
Pozdrawiam serdecznie Rawen :hug: :lol:

BTW holly ****, Argyll will ban us all for this languge p-)A moja babcia spod Hrubieszowa... Ech braty... :hug:

:lol: :hug:
Pozdrawiam serdecznie wszystkich ludzi z pochodzeniem kresowym ;) :lol:

[OB Kenobi]

What f****n law? Whose law? Law where in a normal country You would be fined and here You are deprived of Your human rights? C'mon...

What part of they were tried by an Iraqi court don't you get?
There are courts operating everyday over here..........where do you live.and has that place never broke Human rights?

I'll try this one more time and see if your tree hugging liberal Bull**** can comprehend this story........They committed a crime,they went to a harsh prison,they got released........big deal.......it happens the world over.

Ah, but Argyll, you miss the point entirely. The point is their story backs up what the Iraqis have been saying about the systematic abuse that goes on in Abu Ghraib. This for once comes from people who are not Iraqis or Muslims, or terrorists, and who have experienced it first-hand.

It might also be added that Iraqis do not set the conditions in Abu Ghraib, the human rights abuses going on there are solely under the jurisdiction of the US.

I don't care about the torture of terrorists at Abu Ghraib, but the 70% rate of innocents imprisoned there (according to Red Cross statistics), many of whom were mysteriously *released only after the scandal broke* is another story entirely. I'm sure those thousands of people and their families who may have even once welcomed the US now have a completely different opinion of the situation.

[fdt]

Seems that our definition of "abuse" is slipping. This article says nothing. They were not hit. They were not formed into a naked human pyramid. They were not put in stress positions. Threy were not barked at by dogs. They were not sprayed by hoses. It boils down to; "we didn't like prison".

Their specific complaints?
-it was crowded
-we had to share a cell with nasty people
-the nasty people had to be controlled with teargas
-one guy's medical condition made this unpleasant.

Well then, here's an idea - if you have a delicate medical condition...why not avoid stealing 3500 tons of fuel from the Iraqi people?

Pls 2Sheds... So nothing really nasty happened... is that Your conclusion?
Cell was crowded... big deal... Everywhere in the 3rd world prisons are overcrowded...

Overcrowding, especially in hot climate can be a deadly torture. Have U ever heard of infamous "Black Hole of Calcutta"?

http://banglapedia.search.com.bd/HT/B_0546.htm


The British who had surrendered were well treated. Their chief Holwell had three interviews with the nawab who gave him assurance of safety. The victorious troops of the nawab plundered the Europeans of their valuables, but did not ill-treat them. But later at night, some European soldiers got drunk and assaulted the native guards who, in their turn, sought justice from their nawab. The nawab ordered the confinement of those soldiers who had misbehaved with the natives. Holwell later complained that the nawab ordered the European prisoners to be confined in a 'Black Hole', a chamber of 18 feet by 14 feet 10 inches, with only one small window. The prisoners were crowded into that 'Black Hole' throughout that hot night of June, and in the morning many were found to have perished of suffocation or their wounds. The number of victims afterwards given out and accepted in Europe was 123 dead out of 146 confined. It rose to 200 men in the story told by some English fugitives sheltered in Chandernagar, now Chandannagar.

Now, how far were the nawab's actions justified? International Law makes prisoners of war liable to be shot if they assault their guards. With oriental humanity the nawab merely put restraints on the rowdy elements in the English forces, but in the unsettled conditions of a fort taken by storm, the nawab's officers had no time to separate the 'sheep from the goats'. The prison was left in charge of common soldiers throughout the night. On the following day, Sirajuddaula released all the Englishmen who had been found within the fort except Holwell and three other leading servants of the company whom he ordered to be taken to the capital, murshidabad, as prisoners. But a few days later they were set free, and joined the English fleet at Fulta.


Direct cause of the major part of deaths in Calcutta was suffocation as they had only one small window in cell... Nobody sprayed them with CS... Before claiming..."it's OK, it's normal, it's no big deal, or prison is not supposed to be a fun place".... pls use Your imagination... How do You think they did get the lungs hurt? Is this normal too?

I remember from older judges relations... that in communist Poland... when prison wards wanted to punish some politicxal prisoners they were changing their person/meter/cell limit... from 3sq meters per person to 3 cubic meters per person !!! Prisoners were sitting and standing in turns... and it was not 30-40 Celsius climate... You may call it unpleasant... for me it's untolerable abuse.

As it comes to "stealing 3500 tons of oil from Iraqi people"... Pls... How do U imagine such a "robbery"... Do You think that their ship came to harbour and they simply have stolen the oil from gas station? Whose was the ship? Did it belong to those captured? Who let their ship into harbour? Who let them to pier? Who let them to step on land? Where did they took the crude oil? Who sold it to them? Who delivered it? Etc, etc...

In Poland we have such a proverb... "Gypsy has stolen, balcksmith has been hanged for that..."

[Argyll]

No mate you miss the point entirely...........they were convicted criminals,and also they did not suffer the same treatment as some of the detainees........they complained about over crowding,and tear gas,not being stripped naked and butt fuc*ed with cylum sticks!

Quit bleating about it............criminals deserve to be punished,and that's what they were.....convicted criminals.

[ZeroPositive]

tbh they ran the risk and got caught so boo friking hoo on them....
it is like going out and nicking stuff and saying I don't need to be punished for nicking stuff even if it is illegal....

I hate the fact Prisons have become such lax places... well there is the constant threat of being gang ass raped but hey :)

Now if it was the fact they did nothing wrong... and were imprisoned wrongly thats a different matter...
The middle east is known for its tough punishments... they are lucky not to have their hands cut off...
And Tough punish works... when do u see people stealing in Arab countries....

[ZeroPositive]

Oh Yeah Argyll good to see you are safe mate... if u ever drop by London look me up buy u a pint :D

[fdt]

No mate you miss the point entirely...........they were convicted criminals,and also they did not suffer the same treatment as some of the detainees........they complained about over crowding,and tear gas,not being stripped naked and butt fuc*ed with cylum sticks!

Quit bleating about it............criminals deserve to be punished,and that's what they were.....convicted criminals.Has the court (if it was a court's decision) sentenced them to lung damage? Have they been sentenced to breathing CS? Have they've been provided with proper medical care? ...or they were sentenced to prison... only (if they were). Their worst mistake was that they got caught... I don't think that someone who could afford to charter the ship and pay for the crude oil was so stupid to go there himself... he sent there people whom he paid peanuts... Has anyone sentenced the big fish?

Why should I quit "bleating"? Because they were "only" Ukrainians? Because they should be glad that they managed to get out of the prison alive? Wanna ban me? Do what you feel you have to do...

[fdt]

sorry double post

[fdt]

tbh they ran the risk and got caught so boo friking hoo on them....
it is like going out and nicking stuff and saying I don't need to be punished for nicking stuff even if it is illegal....

I hate the fact Prisons have become such lax places... well there is the constant threat of being gang ass raped but hey :)

Now if it was the fact they did nothing wrong... and were imprisoned wrongly thats a different matter...
The middle east is known for its tough punishments... they are lucky not to have their hands cut off...
And Tough punish works... when do u see people stealing in Arab countries....Yes of course... law must be upheld... especially right after combat operations end and the occupation begins...

http://www.informationwar.org/wars%20gallery/baghdad02_looting_09april2003.jpg

http://www.ananova.com/images/web/49733.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39110000/jpg/_39110037_looting_baghdad_150.jpg

[Argyll]

No mate you miss the point entirely...........they were convicted criminals,and also they did not suffer the same treatment as some of the detainees........they complained about over crowding,and tear gas,not being stripped naked and butt fuc*ed with cylum sticks!

Quit bleating about it............criminals deserve to be punished,and that's what they were.....convicted criminals.Has the court (if it was a court's decision) sentenced them to lung damage? Have they been sentenced to breathing CS? Have they've been provided with proper medical care? ...or they were sentenced to prison... only (if they were). Their worst mistake was that they got caught... I don't think that someone who could afford to charter the ship and pay for the crude oil was so stupid to go there himself... he sent there people whom he paid peanuts... Has anyone sentenced the big fish?

Why should I quit "bleating"? Because they were "only" Ukrainians? Because they should be glad that they managed to get out of the prison alive? Wanna ban me? Do what you feel you have to do...

What a cry baby........I couldn't care less what Nationality they were,they were common criminals.........tell me why do you care so much about these 2?.........perhaps you should represent them in their case against HR violations then,as for the banning thing....boo hoo boo hoo,what a foking cry baby you're turning into over this story.......try to get this into your thick skull......."THEY WERE CONVICTED CRIMINALS"........prison is not supposed to be a holiday..........it's a punishment.
As for the Big Fish........if he gets caught,where ever and whoever he/she is then they'll be convicted also........but I could not care less about the plight of those 2,they got caught and banged up,big freakin deal......it happens worldwide.......they knew the risks........it's time they faced up to the facts they are convicted criminals.....not minor celebrities.

[Fargin]

Abu Graib is yet another manifestation of hypocrisy.

Instead of accepting something went terribly wrong in AG, you keep the ball rolling by ignoring and dismissing the human rights violations. It seems like the only thing wrong was the stupid grunts on the ground dispributing pictures of themselves violating prisoners and international law.

Because everyone knew these things happened all over Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantánamo Bay. Human rights watch reported it but was ignored, because the media needed pictures to sell the story and dismissed them as an anti-american organistaion. Red Cross' name was abused to legitimize what happened on cuba.

But we all knew that the ragheads were getting exactly what they deserved. Argull says it himself, what goes around comes around.

And

the signal was clear from the top. White House said: These prisoners are non-combatans, Camp Orange is located on Cuba. We do not have to treat them accordingly to international law, these people are not people, you may **** them over, because we don't consider them human beings.

Very few really cares about the prisoners of Abu Graib, **** the ****ed prisoners they had it comming. The price of theft is gang rape. Don't steal an office chair if you don't want a attack dog biting your face off, shut the hell up or we'll gas you in our camps. Thank you, Mr. G.I for sodomizing me instead of cutting my hand off.

Welcome to the new free Iraq, free condoms are distributed at all prison entrances.

We all knew.

[ZeroPositive]

those photos of people are they Looting?
Normally the Police and army are meant to shoot looters.... so the US didn't do that... they get told off for not doing anything... if they did shoot looters they would be over doing it....

[fdt]

What a cry baby... [...] what a foking cry baby you're turning into over this story...


In every such a case I choose to be a cry baby.... and I am proud of it :lol: .

http://images.google.pl/images?q=tbn:uXxVPzXjIpEJ:pbskids.org/lions/words/images/cry.gif



try to get this into your thick skull......."THEY WERE CONVICTED CRIMINALS"........prison is not supposed to be a holiday..........it's a punishment.


try to get this into your thick skull.......that EVEN CONVICTED CRIMINALS HAVE SOME RIGHTS

[ronin2172]

just give it up u r not gonna get any sympathy on this one....when u r convicted of a crime u pretty much lose most of your rights...and like others have said they were lucky...u ever see Midnight Express? So what they were stuck in an overcrowded cell....my heart bleeds...hell in Russia they would have been stuck in an overcrowded cell and possiably caught TB (that puts the whole i was sprayed with tear gas thing into perspective). All these jokers r trying to do is position themselves to get a peice of the pie if/when a civil suit is launched. Trying to profit from the misery of others....cry me a f***in river....

[fdt]

[.........] All these jokers r trying to do is position themselves to get a peice of the pie if/when a civil suit is launched. Trying to profit from the misery of others....cry me a f***in river....

Born yesterday or joking...? Everybody tries to earn as he/she can...

http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/03/09/19_cheney.jpg



http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=6315

Rivals Say Halliburton Dominates Iraq Oil Work
By Neela Banerjee ~ New York Times

The Bechtel Group, one of the world's biggest engineering and construction companies, has dropped out of the running for a contract to rebuild the Iraqi oil industry, as other competitors have begun to conclude that the bidding process favors the one company already working in Iraq, Halliburton.

After the United States Army Corps of Engineers quietly selected Halliburton in the spring to perform early repairs of the Iraqi oil business in the aftermath of the war, other companies and members of Congress protested that the work should have been awarded through competitive bidding.

Halliburton's role in the rebuilding has been under political scrutiny because the company was formerly headed by Vice President **** Cheney. But the Bush administration and the Corps of Engineers, which is overseeing the Iraqi oil reconstruction effort, have repeatedly said that Halliburton has no inside track.

Preliminary plans for a new contract, which industry executives had thought might total $1 billion, were announced late in June by the Corps of Engineers. The bidding was meant, in part, to introduce competition and a sense of fairness into the lucrative Iraqi reconstruction market, an executive with a major engineering concern said. Like many industry executives, he would speak only on condition of anonymity because his company does not want to jeopardize its chances for future government contracts.

But in the last month, the corps, which is overseeing the reconstruction efforts, has specified a timetable for the work that effectively means that the value of any contract companies other than Halliburton could win would be worth only about $176 million, according to Corps of Engineers documents and executives in the engineering and construction business.

Earlier this week, Bechtel cited the timetable as its reason for dropping out of the bidding. The company now plans to deal directly with the Iraqi oil ministry for future reconstruction work, a spokesman, Howard N. Menaker, said.

Although the oil ministry and the Army Corps of Engineers nominally cooperate, industry analysts say the Americans have the upper hand.

Officials of the Corps of Engineers did not return numerous phone calls yesterday seeking comment on the contract. But last month, in response to questions from other companies about Halliburton's role, the corps said on its Web site that all potential bidders had received the same information to "eliminate any competitive advantage" Halliburton might have from its involvement in the Iraqi reconstruction work so far. A spokeswoman for Halliburton, Wendy Hall, would not discuss whether its engineering unit, Kellogg Brown & Root, would bid, saying only that "we will evaluate the opportunity."

After indicating in June that it planned to solicit bids, the Corps of Engineers held a conference of prospective bidders in Dallas on July 14. Records of the meeting show that it was attended by some of the most experienced engineering and construction companies in the world - including, besides Halliburton and Bechtel, Fluor, the Parsons Group, Schlumberger and Foster Wheeler.

Among those companies, only Fluor and Parsons have indicated so far that they plan to make bids by the Aug. 14 deadline. A winner will be announced by Oct. 15, according to the Corps of Engineers.

At the meeting and in the initial request for proposals, the Corps of Engineers put forth what the industry calls "an indefinite quantity, indefinite delivery" contract. Industry executives said they were told there could in fact be two principal contracts, one for the oil industry in northern Iraq and the other for the south. The value of each contract could range from $500,000 to $500 million over several years, according to the Corps of Engineers, which cited the continued instability in Iraq as a reason for keeping the terms so vague.

A transcript of the July meeting shows that bidders were concerned even then that Halliburton would have a competitive advantage over other companies because it was already working with the Corps of Engineers in Iraq and helping to assess the repairs needed at oil production sites and pipelines after the war and years of an economic embargo.

The corps denied that such a conflict of interest existed, according to the transcript. Over the last three weeks, however, the Corps of Engineers has provided additional information to bidders indicating that by the July meeting, it and Halliburton already had a fairly clear understanding of the scope and financial value of the work to be done and the timetable for completing it.

The newly released information indicates that a week before the Dallas meeting, the Corps of Engineers and Halliburton participated in a large workshop in Baghdad that also included representatives of the Iraqi oil ministry and the ruling Coalition Provisional Authority to draw up a detailed plan for rebuilding much of the Iraqi oil industry by the end of March 2004.

A week ago, the Corps of Engineers Web site carried an amendment to the contract proposal, saying that 220 projects, mostly at installations above the ground, must be completed for Iraq's oil production to reach prewar levels. The projects are divided into three phases, with a total estimated cost of $1.14 billion.

But the corps notes in the plan that the first two phases, which together would require about $967 million in investments, would have to be completed by Dec. 31.

Halliburton's competitors worry that if the winner of the new contracts is not announced until Oct. 15, that company could not even begin the work before year's end. The only company that could do the work based on that timetable is Halliburton, its competitors say.

Only the third and final phase, worth about $176 million and requiring the work to be completed by March 31, could realistically be performed by a Halliburton competitor, its rivals say.

"The feeling at our company was `Yes, Halliburton is the incumbent, but we had an opportunity there,' " a representative of another engineering concern said. "But if we had believed that from the beginning we had no chance of winning this, we wouldn't have bid."

Responding to pointed questions about the timetable by potential bidders, the Corps of Engineers' Web site said the proposed schedule was "not intended to change anything" about the bidding process.

For its part, the Kellogg Brown & Root unit of Halliburton will do whatever work the corps gives it, Ms. Hall, the spokeswoman, said.

"It is not known at this time how or if the future award of another Corps of Engineers contract will affect current K.B.R. operations or the terms and conditions of its contract," she said.

The first wave of Halliburton employees arrived in Iraq in March, to oversee the extinguishing of several oil well fires near Basra. Since then, its responsibilities, under the direction of the Corps of Engineers, have expanded from its initial job of making emergency repairs.

Working in Iraq has helped turn around Halliburton's financial performance, its second-quarter results showed. The company made a profit of $26 million, in contrast to a loss of $498 million in the period a year earlier. The company stated that 9 percent, or $324 million, of its second-quarter revenue of $3.6 billion came from its work in Iraq.

August 8, 2003

It's not about if theft is right or not... this is about the basic rights that even convicted murderers have... I bet if the Cheney/Halliburton accusations would effect in a sentence nobody would make **** to breathe CS...

[Argyll]

Fdt..........keep it on topic please.

**** Cheney has nothing to do with 2 greeting faced criminals in an Iraqi prison

[fdt]

Fdt..........keep it on topic please.

**** Cheney has nothing to do with 2 greeting faced criminals in an Iraqi prisonSure... :oops: **** was just a collateral...

[Zoomie]

Fdt..........keep it on topic please.

**** Cheney has nothing to do with 2 greeting faced criminals in an Iraqi prisonSure... :oops: **** was just a collateral...
:bash: He can't Argyll.

FDT- Can you tell me or anyone what's in those boxes of the pictures you supplied us with? Do you really know? Have you inspected them yourself?

[mack pl]

FDT- Can you tell me or anyone what's in those boxes of the pictures you supplied us with?
http://www.ananova.com/images/web/49733.jpg

well, depends what FlexScan T565 mean ;)

BTW calm down boys :)

PS. If those Ukrainians want , they could sue US government :|

[gbos]

Big freakin deal.............they were common criminals,Prison is not supposed to be the Hilton hotel...........it's a place of punishment,I wish wankers like this would quit bleating........."commit the crime,you do the time"

In Ukraine they would have been treated a damn site worse off.Pls ARGYLL... keep up Your moral ground...

what do you mean by that?

Convicted criminals,like these were,incase you forgot they were caught stealing Iraqi oil,should not expect a cushy time in Prison,you think they would have been treated better if it were in a Turkish Prison,Saudi Prison, where theft is also punishable with amputation,a Greek prison,or anyy other prison ...........just cause it's Abu Graibh......it's another media bull**** exploitation damning the US Authorities

I see you edited the original post..........so you're an expert on Ukranian prisons then?..........just how the hell can you say for sure they would have been treated better in a Ukrainian Nick?

Bad conditions in Greek prisons? Around here inmates even have their personal TV set inside their cell. You don’t even qualify easily to enter prison. You must commit a crime punishable above 5 years sentence to enter else you pay some euros and you are buying your sentence. It certainly isn’t Hilton although ;).

[Argyll]

Big freakin deal.............they were common criminals,Prison is not supposed to be the Hilton hotel...........it's a place of punishment,I wish wankers like this would quit bleating........."commit the crime,you do the time"

In Ukraine they would have been treated a damn site worse off.Pls ARGYLL... keep up Your moral ground...

what do you mean by that?

Convicted criminals,like these were,incase you forgot they were caught stealing Iraqi oil,should not expect a cushy time in Prison,you think they would have been treated better if it were in a Turkish Prison,Saudi Prison, where theft is also punishable with amputation,a Greek prison,or anyy other prison ...........just cause it's Abu Graibh......it's another media bull**** exploitation damning the US Authorities

I see you edited the original post..........so you're an expert on Ukranian prisons then?..........just how the hell can you say for sure they would have been treated better in a Ukrainian Nick?

Bad conditions in Greek prisons? Around here inmates even have their personal TV set inside their cell. You don’t even qualify easily to enter prison. You must commit a crime punishable above 5 years sentence to enter else you pay some euros and you are buying your sentence. It certainly isn’t Hilton although ;).

Try telling this to the Plane spotters ;) .....they had their HR breached by the Greek Authorities did they not? ;)
Back onto the poor Ukranians........how could they sue the US and possibly win,they were tried and convicted by an Iraqi court of Law,incarcerated in (at the time)an Iraqi prison,run by Iraqi's until the US took over the facility.......and I'm willing to bet they were looked after far better than they claim,sound like sour grapes to me..........."you do the crime......you do the time"

[mack pl]

how could they sue the US and possibly win,they were tried and convicted by an Iraqi court of Law,incarcerated in (at the time)an Iraqi prison,run by Iraqi's until the US took over the facility

ohhh, well, I dont care, Im not lawyer ;) But If they think that they were traten bad(Im mean this insulin for one of them etc.), they could sue US or Iraqi gov., but I doubt they will.

well, they weren't some kind of very dangerous criminals(terrorists, murderers etc.), but only fokin smugglers, so they should be happy that nobody killem or something. Yeah, this prison wasn't "nice" place, but they should think twice before they done what they done(smuggling).

fuk it

regards

[gbos]

Big freakin deal.............they were common criminals,Prison is not supposed to be the Hilton hotel...........it's a place of punishment,I wish wankers like this would quit bleating........."commit the crime,you do the time"

In Ukraine they would have been treated a damn site worse off.Pls ARGYLL... keep up Your moral ground...

what do you mean by that?

Convicted criminals,like these were,incase you forgot they were caught stealing Iraqi oil,should not expect a cushy time in Prison,you think they would have been treated better if it were in a Turkish Prison,Saudi Prison, where theft is also punishable with amputation,a Greek prison,or anyy other prison ...........just cause it's Abu Graibh......it's another media bull**** exploitation damning the US Authorities

I see you edited the original post..........so you're an expert on Ukranian prisons then?..........just how the hell can you say for sure they would have been treated better in a Ukrainian Nick?

Bad conditions in Greek prisons? Around here inmates even have their personal TV set inside their cell. You don’t even qualify easily to enter prison. You must commit a crime punishable above 5 years sentence to enter else you pay some euros and you are buying your sentence. It certainly isn’t Hilton although ;).

Try telling this to the Plane spotters ;) .....they had their HR breached by the Greek Authorities did they not? ;)
Back onto the poor Ukranians........how could they sue the US and possibly win,they were tried and convicted by an Iraqi court of Law,incarcerated in (at the time)an Iraqi prison,run by Iraqi's until the US took over the facility.......and I'm willing to bet they were looked after far better than they claim,sound like sour grapes to me..........."you do the crime......you do the time"

Ok we will have you as a lawmaker and abolish our parliament. Happy now :)