View Full Version : Brazilian girl's abortion sparks Catholic row
Sweetwater
03-10-2009, 01:26 PM
The Roman Catholic church in Brazil has been embroiled in a row following the excommunication of the mother and doctors of a nine-year-old girl who had an abortion after being raped.
No action has been taken against the girl's stepfather, who is accused of the rape.
Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, head of the Roman Catholic Church's Congregation for Bishops, has stood by the decision, telling the daily La Stampa that the twins the girl had been carrying had a right to live.
"It is a sad case but the real problem is that the twins conceived were two innocent persons, who had the right to live and could not be eliminated," he said. Cardinal Re, who also heads the Pontifical Commission for Latin America, added, "Life must always be protected, the attack on the Brazilian Church is unjustified."
The row was triggered by the termination on Wednesday of twin foetuses carried by a nine-year-old allegedly raped by her stepfather in the Brazilian state of Pernambuco.
The regional archbishop, Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, ****ounced excommunication for the mother for authorising the operation and doctors who carried it out for fear that the slim girl would not survive carrying the foetuses to term.
"God's law is above any human law. So when a human law ... is contrary to God's law, this human law has no value," Archbishop Cardoso said.
He also said the accused stepfather would not be expelled from the Church.
Although the man allegedly committed "a heinous crime ... the abortion - the elimination of an innocent life - was more serious," he said.
The case has sparked fierce debate in Brazil, where abortion is illegal except in cases of rape or if the woman's health is in danger.
President Luiz Ignacio Lula da Silva hit out at Archbishop Sobrinho's decision, saying, "As a Christian and a Catholic, I deeply regret that a bishop of the Catholic Church has such a conservative attitude."
"The doctors did what had to be done: save the life of a girl of nine years old," he said, adding that "in this case, the medical profession was more right than the Church."
One of the doctors involved in the abortion, Rivaldo Albuquerque, told Globo television that he would keep going to mass, regardless of the archbishop's order.
"The people want a Church full of forgiveness, love and mercy," he said.
The girl, who was not identified because she is a minor, was last week found to be four months' pregnant after being taken to hospital suffering stomach pains.
Officials said she told them she had suffered ****** abuse by her stepfather since the age of six.
Police said the 23-year-old stepfather also allegedly ******ly abused the girl's physically handicapped 14-year-old sister.
He was arrested a week ago and is being kept in protective custody. If convicted, he faces up to 15 years in prison.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/brazil/4960546/Brazilian-girls-abortion-sparks-Catholic-row.html
Your Thoughts?
wildcat
03-10-2009, 01:35 PM
No action against the step Father, WTF, no excommunication, but excommunication of the mother and doctors, WTF, seems that they need to take a big look inside.
as for the step father, I think gang raped in prison for life should be his punishment.
The "Church" is still stuck in the middle age when it comes to these matters
Mordoror
03-10-2009, 02:31 PM
Morons !!!
not all the Talibans are in the ME
beware we have some species at home .....
Ulytau
03-10-2009, 02:40 PM
Church need to speak bout rape to girl from her step-father not about abortion..
And there must be serious punishment to rapist..
PeterG
03-10-2009, 02:47 PM
Rape the cardinal with a very large object, then excommunicate him and the entire catholic church from the continent. That would make it possible to start some much needed birth control programs.
Connaught Ranger
03-10-2009, 03:39 PM
Typical Reaction from the Roman Catholic Church, (under instruction from the Vatican,) stuck with its head up its own ar*e, they are probably convinced its all the girls fault, and she tempted the step-father.
President Luiz Ignacio Lula da Silva hit out at Archbishop Sobrinho's decision, saying, "As a Christian and a Catholic, I deeply regret that a bishop of the Catholic Church has such a conservative attitude."
You can fool some of the people for some of the time, but not forever.
Mu-Meson
03-10-2009, 03:45 PM
I'm not Catholic, but I can actually see where they are coming from. I am not saying I agree but try looking at it their way: The abortion counts as the murder of two innocent lives. Murder >> Rape. As far as their moral compass goes, this is entirely consistent. Of course that doesn't explain why they don't excommunicate the rapist too. And I'd have thought they wouldn't have been dumb enough to make this an major issue when clearly the girl's life was in danger.
Connaught Ranger
03-10-2009, 03:56 PM
I'm not Catholic, but I can actually see where they are coming from. I am not saying I agree but try looking at it their way: The abortion counts as the murder of two innocent lives. Murder >> Rape. As far as their moral compass goes, this is entirely consistent. Of course that doesn't explain why they don't excommunicate the rapist too. And I'd have thought they wouldn't have been dumb enough to make this an major issue when clearly the girl's life was in danger.
And allowing the pregnancy to go full term could endanger the girl, but the R.C. Church believes the unborn child is new cannon-fodder (a new soul) for the R. C. Church, the mother is nothing, in their male chauvinistic dominated world.
Connaught Ranger.:)
Behan
03-10-2009, 03:59 PM
Tonight, on WXYZ, is the Catholic Church opposed to abortion? It sure seems so, Sally. But first--the water that you and your family drink may actually be contaminated with wetness! And later, what is that bear doing crouched in the woods? We have the exclusive footage, and you won't want to miss it!
The RC church is simply standing by its long-held policy that abortion is very, very, very wrong (a stance with which many, many, many people concur). For them to say otherwise, even in this sad, sick scenario, would be shocking and newsworthy.
As it stands right now, we seem to have one sick bastard headed to prison, one poor girl with emotional and physical scars and a torn-up RC membership card, two dead babies, one Carnival-sized PR circus, and a bunch of angry atheist interwebbers poised to compare the Pope and Adolf Hitler--sound about right?
morten
03-10-2009, 04:00 PM
Disgusting.
The best thing would be to send him to his friends in Afghanistan.
PS isn't the scum-rapist protestant? Correct me if i'm wrong...
1. Abortion is a killing.
2. Sometimes killing is justified e.g. self-defence. If girl was endangered by unborn child he could kill him in self-defence.
3. Why excommunication bother so much non Catholics? I'm not interested if anybody for any reason is expelled by Jews, Muslims, Buddhism or any other religion. It just don,t concern me, even if I would have been expelled by those regions. I just don't consider those religion as true, the same like non Catholics don't consider RC religion as true - I suppose.
Behan
03-10-2009, 04:28 PM
I think you might be reading a bit more into it that truly exists.
I have trouble convincing myself that the RC abortion position is a secret plot to boost gang membership or put ho's in their place--although these are both fine agendas for any organization with staying power.:)
FWIW, the most fanatical pro-life folks I've ever encountered are women. Not coincidentally, the most rabid pro-choice people are young men.
And allowing the pregnancy to go full term could endanger the girl, but the R.C. Church believes the unborn child is new cannon-fodder (a new soul) for the R. C. Church, the mother is nothing, in their male chauvinistic dominated world.
Connaught Ranger.:)
eskachig
03-10-2009, 05:03 PM
FWIW, the most fanatical pro-life folks I've ever encountered are women. Not coincidentally, the most rabid pro-choice people are young men.Sure thing buddy.
1. Abortion is a killing.
This assumption is the root of the endless squabbling. Defining personhood is a non-trivial matter. Is it DNA? Nervous complexity? An arbitrary number of cells? Regardless of how you do it you draw a line in the sand.
Unless of course you believe that God comes down and puts a soul into every fertilized ovum. The Catholic position is fairly consistent in this regard, but it stretches the limits of common sense as more and more people have deeper understanding of the biology involved.
3. Why excommunication bother so much non Catholics? I'm not interested if anybody for any reason is expelled by Jews, Muslims, Buddhism or any other religion. It just don,t concern me, even if I would have been expelled by those regions. I just don't consider those religion as true, the same like non Catholics don't consider RC religion as true - I suppose.This is a big deal in Brazil right now - meaning that a lot of people in this extremely Catholic nation are bothered by this. I myself find it abhorrent because I understand how important religion is to people and think that it's an extremely traumatic act in regards to a young girl who needs all the support she can get. Thinking that she's auto-bound for hell is the last thing that this nine-year old needs.
Organized religion, ugh. If they're so concerned about God's law, maybe they should leave the judging up to him.
Connaught Ranger
03-10-2009, 05:11 PM
I think you might be reading a bit more into it that truly exists.
I have trouble convincing myself that the RC abortion position is a secret plot to boost gang membership or put ho's in their place--although these are both fine agendas for any organization with staying power.:)
FWIW, the most fanatical pro-life folks I've ever encountered are women. Not coincidentally, the most rabid pro-choice people are young men.
About 30 years ago, in the west of Ireland, I had to go with an Army friend to the local hospital maternity ward, where his wife was in labour, while waiting there our attention was drawn to a commotion in the room, there was a Doctor, Nurse, Priest and a rather distraught Father, who was being told that his wife had developed severe complications and a choice had to be made very quickly, the choice was simple, either they save the child, or the Mother but not both, the Priest was adamant that the child must be saved at all costs as it was a new soul, the husband as you can imagine was very distraught and told the priest he had 6 other children at home who needed a Mother, to which the Priest replied, Well you can always get married again, but if you do not save the child your soul will be dammed in eternal hellfire!
I believe the prospective father folded under the Man of the Cloths "Advice*", My buddy said that if a Priest said the same bull**** to him, in similar circumstance, he would hit him.
*That mentality is still alive and well in the Holy Catholic Church.
Connaught Ranger.
Behan
03-10-2009, 05:43 PM
A bad experience 30 years ago in the West of Ireland--regardless of its screenplay-like qualities--does not an international conspiracy make.
Besides, it goes against the membership-drive theory. Why save a child who could grow up to be an atheist, or, worse still, a Protestant, when you could save a confirmed Catholic? And not just any Catholic, we are talking about a highly-fertile Catholic with a proven record of adding members to the team?
The RC church has had a lot of bad juju to deal with in recent years, and most of it is well deserved (what with the pedopriests and all).
And I know that the RC Church in Ireland in particular has a history of being a sadistic lot--I've heard many a story of acts that can only be described as cruel.
But I still find the notion of an organized Vatican effort to use an anti-abortion stance as a tool to keep women down to be a bit nutty, that's all.
About 30 years ago, in the west of Ireland, I had to go with an Army friend to the local hospital maternity ward, where his wife was in labour, while waiting there our attention was drawn to a commotion in the room, there was a Doctor, Nurse, Priest and a rather distraught Father, who was being told that his wife had developed severe complications and a choice had to be made very quickly, the choice was simple, either they save the child, or the Mother but not both, the Priest was adamant that the child must be saved at all costs as it was a new soul, the husband as you can imagine was very distraught and told the priest he had 6 other children at home who needed a Mother, to which the Priest replied, Well you can always get married again, but if you do not save the child your soul will be dammed in eternal hellfire!
I believe the prospective father folded under the Man of the Cloths "Advice*", My buddy said that if a Priest said the same bull**** to him, in similar circumstance, he would hit him.
*That mentality is still alive and well in the Holy Catholic Church.
Connaught Ranger.
eskachig
03-10-2009, 05:48 PM
But I still find the notion of an organized Vatican effort to use an anti-abortion stance as a tool to keep women down to be a bit nutty, that's all.Abortion predates the church, and was always a tool for women to retain control of their lives. I'm not 100% behind the view that its ban is an organized attempt to keep women down, but there is definitely something to it.
Connaught Ranger
03-10-2009, 05:50 PM
There is no international conspiracy, :roll:
the Roman Catholic Church, ran from the Vatican,
1. is anti abortion (even when its advised on medical grounds.)
2. Anti Divorce.
3. Anti Homo******.
as well as quite a few more Anti's.
That's what happens when God representatives start to push their crazed agendas in an unrelenting quest for control, the polices worked well for centuries with the ignorant masses of the people, but people are better educated today.
The Roman Catholic Church is slowly shutting itself down with thousands turning away from the archaic way of looking at the world.
My mother who was an English Anglican, had to sign a legally binding document in front of the Archbishop of Nottingham, stating that ALL children in her marriage to my father an Irish Catholic would be brought up only as Catholics.
Blackmail as well to add to their crimes.
Kilgor
03-10-2009, 05:53 PM
Maybe the church should throw in a washing machine and bible so this girl... no.. child can be truly liberated.
Behan
03-10-2009, 05:54 PM
I can see that, although most pro-choicers would be very upset at the daylight you just introduced between the church and abortion issue.
Oh well, I really don't want to argue the abortion issue--it simply never ends and I am afraid that is where this thread is leading, so I will kindly see myself to the door. Been nice chatting, no offense intended if any was taken...
Abortion predates the church, and was always a tool for women to retain control of their lives. I'm not 100% behind the view that its ban is an organized attempt to keep women down, but there is definitely something to it.
seraosha
03-10-2009, 06:00 PM
Anti-murder, anti-divorce, anti-homo******ity.
Yeah, how dare they? :roll:
So what pro-murder, pro-divorce and pro-gay church do you go to CR?
eskachig
03-10-2009, 06:08 PM
Anti-murder, anti-divorce, anti-homo******ity.
Yeah, how dare they? :roll:
So what pro-murder, pro-divorce and pro-gay church do you go to CR?Episcopal! :D
Seriously though, abortion=murder argument is tired - it's a complex issue. As for divorce and homo******ity, what exactly is the problem and what business of the Church is it anyhow?
Dear Jesus,
Please save me from your followers.
Sincerely,
Bia
Kilgor
03-10-2009, 06:08 PM
This girls life is in danger if she gives birth, she was raped What sort of sick religious freak could justify this outcome ?
Anti-murder, anti-divorce, anti-homo******ity.
Yeah, how dare they? :roll:
So what pro-murder, pro-divorce and pro-gay church do you go to CR?Lets see my Goverment is pro murder... kills people often in various methods. Most Americans support it.
Hmmmm... Divorce... not always a bad thing... in fact it's often the best solution to a bad problem.
Homo******s... well seeing as I am straight... then it matters not what homo******s do in their private lives.
You're batting ZERO sir.
And I dare say I am ten times more moral than my psycho christian hypocrite aquaintances.... they sin freely because their messiah will forgive them whereas if I do wrong I know I can blame no one but myself and have to live with it.
Connaught Ranger
03-10-2009, 06:12 PM
Anti-murder, anti-divorce, anti-homo******ity.
Yeah, how dare they? :roll:
So what pro-murder, pro-divorce and pro-gay church do you go to CR?
Quoted for its stupidity content.
I personally don't go to any church,
but the Protestant Church is not against divorce,
and as far as I am aware they are not anti-Gay either.
And they are not anti abortion.
Its the peoples choice to follow their own beliefs, and not have them foisted upon them by a religious organization, who have shown by the history and actions that there is one law for the R.C. church (the do as we say without question law) and the religious laws they demand their followers to practice.
Connaught Ranger
03-10-2009, 06:14 PM
This girls life is in danger if she gives birth, she was raped What sort of sick religious freak could justify this outcome ?
A Vatican ordained Religious member of the Roman Catholic Church and some of their deluded followers, of course.
Connaught Ranger.
Blue_0
03-10-2009, 06:19 PM
Barbaric on the part of the church. Religious extremism in any form is bad news.
-- Bluelight
Mordoror
03-10-2009, 07:04 PM
Anti-murder, anti-divorce, anti-homo******ity.
Yeah, how dare they? :roll:
So what pro-murder, pro-divorce and pro-gay church do you go to CR?
because they are closer than a madrassa
you know, a plane ticket and visa for Pakistan is expensive when i can have the same advices and behaviour next door
wait whutt ??
but the Protestant Church is not against divorce,
and as far as I am aware they are not anti-Gay either.
And they are not anti abortion.
It's interesting. Exactly which Christian church doesn't consider abortion and homo******ity as a sin?
If you could write something about divorces in Christian churches I would be grateful.
PeterG
03-11-2009, 05:53 PM
It's interesting. Exactly which Christian church doesn't consider abortion and homo******ity as a sin?
If you could write something about divorces in Christian churches I would be grateful.
Both abortions and homo******ity should be encouraged, since it would help reduce the birth rate. There's far too many people in the world today - it is unsustainable, and it will destroy the planet and us.
Abortions and homo****** couples with no children are good for mankind.
Abortions and homo****** couples with no children are good for mankind.
:cantbeli::slap:
fish&chips
03-11-2009, 06:04 PM
It's interesting. Exactly which Christian church doesn't consider abortion and homo******ity as a sin?
If you could write something about divorces in Christian churches I would be grateful.
E.g. the Lutheran church in Germany offers legal counseling which is needed for abortion. But then they also have female bishops and the like. And "two people of the same gender asking to be blessed as Christians for their living together may be blessed in a parish."
Shocking, eh? p-)
Hollis
03-11-2009, 06:08 PM
They were excommunicated........... Ladeda Effin da. Outside of Catholics who cares. The Pope could excommunicate me, I could care less. I guess he would have to make me a Catholic first. Compared to the actual physical brutality that is inflected on women in the guise of some religions/cultures, this is meaningless.
Hot Lips
03-11-2009, 06:39 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/brazil/4960546/Brazilian-girls-abortion-sparks-Catholic-row.html
Your Thoughts?
I pondered how many known murderers in prison Archbishop Cardoso has excommunicated.
And how many unaborted children he financially supports.
Wasn't surprised the step-father wasn't excommunicated --- just reinforces the perception that the church is a safe haven for pedofiles.
seraosha
03-11-2009, 11:43 PM
Quoted for its stupidity content.
I personally don't go to any church,
but the Protestant Church is not against divorce,
and as far as I am aware they are not anti-Gay either.
And they are not anti abortion.
Its the peoples choice to follow their own beliefs, and not have them foisted upon them by a religious organization, who have shown by the history and actions that there is one law for the R.C. church (the do as we say without question law) and the religious laws they demand their followers to practice.
So your bigotry is a reaction to your seeing the positive side of divorce, homo******ity and murder (open to interpretation).
Good luck with that. Sounds more like a lifestyle choice than a belief system to me, but YMMV.
Oh, and before I forget:
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1369/biarofl.gif
Fiber
03-12-2009, 05:52 AM
They were excommunicated........... Ladeda Effin da. Outside of Catholics who cares. The Pope could excommunicate me, I could care less. I guess he would have to make me a Catholic first. Compared to the actual physical brutality that is inflected on women in the guise of some religions/cultures, this is meaningless.
An adult with an existing social network who choose to join a religious community, breaks the rules and then gets banned is one thing. A child brought up in an environment where the social network and religious community more ore less is fully intertwined is another.
It is a good strategy to keep the herd together and make sure no individual steps out of line.
Shocking, eh? p-)
Maybe not shocking, but sad.
Outside of Catholics who cares. The Pope could excommunicate me, I could care less.
Exactly. I don't understand why non-Catholics bother so much about excommunication.
Connaught Ranger
03-12-2009, 07:16 AM
It's interesting. Exactly which Christian church doesn't consider abortion and homo******ity as a sin?
If you could write something about divorces in Christian churches I would be grateful.
My twin brother a R.C. divorced his first wife, also a R.C after she walked out and took their son to live in the UK.(They were married in Ireland.)
After he retired from the Irish Military, he moved to the U.K. and got a divorced.
Years later he wanted to get married to his new girlfriend, (who was divorced from her husband, a chronic alcoholic,) and by coincidence were Irish as well.
After a Civil Wedding service in London, they wanted to have the a Religious service in Ireland to bless their union and contacted the local R.C Priest, he flatly refused to perform any such ceremony citing in the eyes of the Catholic Church and Rome they were still married to their original partners:roll:.
So according to Catholic Church "Law" they are bigamists, when in Ireland!!
Despite divorce being recognised and allowed under Irish Law.
PsihoKeke
03-12-2009, 08:14 AM
Anti-murder, anti-divorce, anti-homo******ity.
Yeah, how dare they? :roll:
So what pro-murder, pro-divorce and pro-gay church do you go to CR?
You forgot to add that they are pro-pedophilia. Church persecutes it's homo****** priests while pedophile ones are protected any way.
boreal
03-12-2009, 09:04 AM
You forgot to add that they are pro-pedophilia. Church persecutes it's homo****** priests while pedophile ones are protected any way.
http://www.skrabby.com/images/screenshots/smgms_dumb-dumber.jpg
After a Civil Wedding service in London, they wanted to have the a Religious service in Ireland to bless their union and contacted the local R.C Priest, he flatly refused to perform any such ceremony citing in the eyes of the Catholic Church and Rome they were still married to their original partners:roll:.
In RC church you swear during wedding that you will not leave you wife/husband until death. It is impossible to take second RC wedding when both husband and wife are alive. Oath is an oath.
Adherence to RC church is not compulsory.
Connaught Ranger
03-12-2009, 04:51 PM
In RC church you swear during wedding that you will not leave you wife/husband until death. It is impossible to take second RC wedding when both husband and wife are alive. Oath is an oath.
Adherence to RC church is not compulsory.
No sh*t sherlock:roll: Oath is an Oath (sounds like the SS) A stupid Church law, that finds no basis in the bible or in Gods teachings, and forced upn people by church tradition, and many people did not want to cause embarrassment for their family and friends by having some priest denounce them from the altar. Mainly the women, so they suffered in silence.
I was stopped in the street while in Irish military service by an old priest who demanded I salute him:roll:, I told the old fart I only salute officers in the green uniform of the Irish Defence Forces and flipped him the finger.
Ireland was held in a strangle hold by the church and the old mentality of the Church still exsists today. Well times change and any religion has to adapt to the changing world or lose members.
The R.C. Church has a long history of changing laws to suit itself, the one about Priests getting married, funny enough the original Pope, St. Peter was a married man :roll:, but the Vatican found a way to get out paying a pension or providing a house for a priests wife & kids if he died in service to the church, by banning them from getting married, no wonder so many of them are chasing kids and getting involved in homo****** relationships.
seraosha
03-12-2009, 05:19 PM
A stupid Church law, that finds no basis in the bible or in Gods teachings, and forced upn people by church tradition
No offense meant, but you are wrong about it having no basis in the Bible.
Mark 10:2-12 I'm not going to quote scripture and all that, as your bigotry is far too entrenched. I'll say a prayer for you at Mass on Sunday.
God Bless you CR, and may He keep you safe from murderous homo****** divorcees. woot
Connaught Ranger
03-12-2009, 05:24 PM
No offense meant, but you are wrong about it having no basis in the Bible.
Mark 10:2-12 I'm not going to quote scripture and all that, as your bigotry is far too entrenched. I'll say a prayer for you at Mass on Sunday.
God Bless you CR, and may He keep you safe from murderous homo****** divorcees. woot
Of course I am a bigot:roll: as
I find "Lord of the Rings" to be more believable than the Bible, a work of fiction that has been subject to so many rewrites depending upon who was paying for the printing, woot
seraosha
03-12-2009, 05:32 PM
Try "Dune"...a much better series of books depicting a messiah you can get behind. Maud'Dib beats the hell out of Aragorn.
epictetus
03-12-2009, 09:47 PM
Try "Dune"...a much better series of books depicting a messiah you can get behind. Maud'Dib beats the hell out of Aragorn.
True, long live the fighters!!!p-)
Connaught Ranger
03-13-2009, 04:52 AM
Try "Dune"...a much better series of books depicting a messiah you can get behind. Maud'Dib beats the hell out of Aragorn.
Not really I found it a tad dry for my tastes and sore on the eyes :p
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