Rising navy, assertiveness behind US-China flap

[HIPCHIP]

http://my.att.net/s/editorial.dll?fromspage=cg/cityguide.htm&categoryid=&bfromind=7406&eeid=6438012&_sitecat=1505&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=0&ck=&ch=ne&rg=blsadstrgt&_lid=332&_lnm=tg+ne+topnews&ck=

Rising navy, assertiveness behind US-China flap

Published: 3/11/09, 12:25 PM EDT
By CHRISTOPHER BODEEN

BEIJING (AP) - China's weekend scrap with a U.S. Navy surveillance ship is drawing attention to a new submarine base that Beijing is using to strengthen its presence on the strategically vital South China Sea, which it claims as a whole.

For the second day running, the Foreign Ministry in Beijing fired back Wednesday at U.S. complaints over what the Pentagon called harassment of the U.S. Navy mapping ship by Chinese boats in international waters about 75 miles (120 kilometers) off its southern island province of Hainan.

U.S. claims that the USNS Impeccable was operating legally within China's exclusive economic zone when it was harassed by Chinese boats are "gravely in contravention of the facts and unacceptable to China," spokesman Ma Zhaoxu said in a statement posted on the ministry's Web site.

Ma's comments, a virtual repeat of those made at a news conference Tuesday, showed neither side was prepared to back down, even as they prepare for a much-anticipated first meeting between Hu and President Barack Obama at next month's G20 summit in London.


The issue also could come up Wednesday in Washington, where Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi is scheduled to meet with U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Defense Department officials say the Impeccable was on a mission to seek out threats such as submarines and was towing a sonar apparatus that scans and listens for subs, mines and torpedoes. With its numerous Chinese military installations, Hainan offers rich hunting for such surveillance.

Of particular interest is the new submarine base near the resort city of Sanya that is home to the Chinese navy's most sophisticated craft.

Photographs of the base taken last year and posted on the Internet by the Federation of American Scientists show a submarine cave entrance and a pier, with a Chinese nuclear-powered Jin class sub docked there.

While little else is known, its location on the South China Sea offers the People's Liberation Army Navy access to crucial waterways through which much of the shipping bound for Japan and Northeast Asia must travel.

High-seas encounters such as the Impeccable incident are likely to grow more common because China wants to assert its right to protect its secrets in the area, while the U.S. wants to gain as much knowledge as possible about China's subs and the underwater terrain, according to maritime policy analyst Mark Valencia.

"Thus such incidents are likely to be repeated and become more dangerous and they do not pertain to China and the U.S. alone," Valencia wrote in an article posted Wednesday on the Web site of the Far Eastern Economic Review.

China's claim to the entire South China Sea and its hundreds of islands and reefs overlaps with those of a half-dozen other nations, leading to occasional clashes and standoffs. Increasingly, China's rapid naval upgrade, exemplified by the Hainan base, is putting muscle behind its arguments.

From Russia, China has purchased a dozen Kilo-class diesel submarines, Sovremmenny class destroyers and supersonic Sunburn and Sizzler anti-ship missiles. China's own advanced Shang, Song and Yuan class submarines are being produced at a rapid tick, and there is increasing talk of an aircraft carrier being launched in coming years.

President and Communist Party leader Hu Jintao, who also heads the commissions overseeing the armed forces, called on the military Wednesday to pick up the pace of modernization to "resolutely safeguard the country's sovereignty, security and territorial integrity."

China's territorial claims are sharpened still more by Beijing's interpretation of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. China sees the convention as giving it the right to ban a broad range of activities within its exclusive economic zone. That grates against the U.S. position that the Navy ships were in international waters and therefore have the right to conduct surveying.

Those dueling claims also lay at the heart of the last major confrontation between the two militaries, a 2001 mid-air collision between a Chinese fighter jet and a U.S. spy plane in international air space south of Hainan.

This time, Beijing appears to be pressing its stance even harder, citing both the U.N. convention and its own domestic laws and regulations.

"The Chinese government always handles such activities strictly in accordance with these laws and regulations," the Foreign Ministry's Ma said in his statement.

[Laworkerbee]

Did you happen to see pictures of the pieces of junk that were involved in this incident.

They looked like civilian ships.

[bd popeye]

Did you happen to see pictures of the pieces of junk that were involved in this incident.

They looked like civilian ships.

Those were Maritime enforcement ships or something along those lines.

It's easy for these no-nothing alarmist to write these articles. While what the writer is trying to convey is true.. The fact is the USN has been performing these oceanographic survey's for decades. The Chinese well know what is going on. I feel their attempt to counter the surveys will only cause the USN to eventually have DDGs or FFGs escort the survey ships.


From Russia, China has purchased a dozen Kilo-class diesel submarines, Sovremmenny class destroyers and supersonic Sunburn and Sizzler anti-ship missiles. China's own advanced Shang, Song and Yuan class submarines are being produced at a rapid tick, and there is increasing talk of an aircraft carrier being launched in coming years.While China is building a Blue water navy what they lack in is training. Logistics. And forward bases to operate their ships away from Chinese shores.

[WarDancer]

China will never be a maritime force to be reckoned with. It has neither the history, resources or need to be a maritime force. With Indias Navy on the rise and ascerting herself Chinas navy will always be second class.

[HIPCHIP]

Between lead in everything China makes, their support of North Korea, them copying everything in the world (guitars, minicycles, shows, etc), and their consumption of oil and concrete, this incident just adds more to worry about. After the Olympics I thought that maybe there was a chance for change, but it appears it's business as usual!

[Laworkerbee]

China will never be a maritime force to be reckoned with. It has neither the history, resources or need to be a maritime force. With Indias Navy on the rise and ascerting herself Chinas navy will always be second class.

Are you high or just stupid?

[Ordie]

Those were Maritime enforcement ships or something along those lines.

It's easy for these no-nothing alarmist to write these articles. While what the writer is trying to convey is true.. The fact is the USN has been performing these oceanographic survey's for decades. The Chinese well know what is going on. I feel their attempt to counter the surveys will only cause the USN to eventually have DDGs or FFGs escort the survey ships.

Popeye is 100% correct.

During the Cold War is was not uncommon for our ship to be shadowed by Soviet AGI trawlers.

Moreover, sailing through the South China Sea was a bit of a challenge because of the shipping routes from the Straits of Malucca to Hong Kong, China, Taiwan, Korea and Japan.

This on top fishing trawlers everywhere casting bouys and drift nets everywhere.

Its a very busy place.

[TR1]

China will never be a maritime force to be reckoned with. It has neither the history, resources or need to be a maritime force. With Indias Navy on the rise and ascerting herself Chinas navy will always be second class.
LOL, post of the century.....rofl

[bd popeye]

Popeye is 100% correct.

During the Cold War is was not uncommon for our ship to be shadowed by Soviet AGI trawlers.

Moreover, sailing through the South China Sea was a bit of a challenge because of the shipping routes from the Straits of Malucca to Hong Kong, China, Taiwan, Korea and Japan.

This on top fishing trawlers everywhere casting bouys and drift nets everywhere.

Its a very busy place.

Thank you ordie..Been there done that. When I was on the JFK back in the early 70s the Soviets were close by when we were in the Mediterranean. That's how the game was played. Now it's time to play with China

I found the timing of the posting of this photo on navy.mil very interesting. Read the whole caption. I'm sure the PLAN has...
http://www.dezh.de/imghosting/37a2bc4be9332346aead448b36a75c64.jpg (http://www.dezh.de/#37a2bc4be9332346aead448b36a75c64.jpg)
Download HiRes (http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/090309-N-6044L-001.jpg)


SAN DIEGO (March 9, 2009) An SH-60B Sea Hawk helicopter assigned to the "Wolfpack" of Helicopter Anti-Submarine Squadron Light (HSL) 45 launches an AGM-114B Hellfire missile at a small boat target. HSL-45 is preparing to send combat-ready detachments to U.S. 3rd and 5th Fleet areas of responsibility. (U.S. Navy photo by Lt. Austin Long/Released)

[Itachi]

china a maritime force LOL
they need 30 years or longer to build a fleet which could mess with us navy

[1curious]

The fact is the USN has been performing these oceanographic survey's for decades. The Chinese well know what is going on. I feel their attempt to counter the surveys will only cause the USN to eventually have DDGs or FFGs escort the survey ships.

Those were NOT oceanographic surveys. The Impeccable is one of five anti-submarine support ships..yeah also called survey...while none of the true seven oceanographic survey ships was/were there...as I explained here.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3980684&postcount=139

Otherwise, I agree. BTW, there is a dedicated thread already.

[bd popeye]

Those were NOT oceanographic surveys. The Impeccable is one of five anti-submarine support ships..yeah also called survey...while none of the true seven oceanographic survey ships was/were there...as I explained here.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3980684&postcount=139

Otherwise, I agree. BTW, there is dedicated thread already.

But the ship is capable of such surveys. You are correct in correctly stating their mission.

I found these photos on a Chinese website. There was a story with the photos. I translated it..but I'm not posting it. It is pure 100% Flame bait.

http://www.dezh.de/imghosting/0df0520b04f61b805d2634c847303a89.jpg (http://www.dezh.de/#0df0520b04f61b805d2634c847303a89.jpg)

http://www.dezh.de/imghosting/01b2ee23e1474ca64bbe9d604a63c4ab.jpg (http://www.dezh.de/#01b2ee23e1474ca64bbe9d604a63c4ab.jpg)

http://www.dezh.de/imghosting/6f1367968a1de0b4ed67876529e77408.jpg (http://www.dezh.de/#6f1367968a1de0b4ed67876529e77408.jpg)

[xav]

I translated it..but I'm not posting it. It is pure 100% Flame bait.


Are they turning Anti US on the chinese boards and forums?

[Laworkerbee]

Are they turning Anti US on the chinese boards and forums?

When are they not?

All of those boards are nationalistic circle jerks.

CHINA STRONG!!11!!1

[Ordie]

Thank you ordie..Been there done that. When I was on the JFK back in the early 70s the Soviets were close by when we were in the Mediterranean. That's how the game was played. Now it's time to play with China

Back in the good old days it was a gentleman's version of playing chicken. Both the Soviets and Americans knew thier limits and many of the contacts were kept local.

My fear is that the PRC and PLAN places high 'face value' on such events that they may take extreme measures as what happend on Sunday. Moreover, instant e-mail of images can go viral faning the flames of nationalist sentiments. This places the CCP is an awkward situation, because much of its legitimacy is based on nationalism.

I believe many of the actions are done so without the knowledge of Beijing. The CCP leadership already have enough on thier plate with the economy, unemployment, anniversary dates, and the environment. The last thing they need is nationalist street sentiment and pressure that may hinder international relations.

[1curious]

I believe many of the actions are done so without the knowledge of Beijing. l
I don't think so. According to the news reports, today's face-to-face discussions between Clinton and the Chinese FM, were largely about the incident. Also, Chinese Foreign Ministry (in a rather uncharacteristic manner) for two days in a row issued vigorous protests.

I believe, the Chinese government was directly involved in this one and authorized it as a matter of policy.

[BearInBunnySuit]

I don't think so. According to the news reports, today's face-to-face discussions between Clinton and the Chinese FM, were largely about the incident. Also, Chinese Foreign Ministry (in a rather uncharacteristic manner) for two days in a row issued vigorous protests.

I believe, the Chinese government was directly involved in this one and authorized it as a matter of policy.

Yeah, I can't imagine anyone in China taking actions like that without direct orders from the top.

[Ordie]

I don't think so. According to the news reports, today's face-to-face discussions between Clinton and the Chinese FM, were largely about the incident. Also, Chinese Foreign Ministry (in a rather uncharacteristic manner) for two days in a row issued vigorous protests.

I believe, the Chinese government was directly involved in this one and authorized it as a matter of policy.

Was this before or after the encounter?

If the Chinese public was made aware prior to the leadership in Beijing knowing about this, then it "forced" them to react. Otherwise they would have kept it quiet for the sake of the greater good.

The CCP leadership is "thicked faced" on international issues and "thin faced" on domestic issues. They usually 'cave in' in favor of its masses at the expense of pragmatic international relations.

The CCP is paranoid about its legitimacy at the moment.

[Ordie]

Yeah, I can't imagine anyone in China taking actions like that without direct orders from the top.

I doubt that Beijing would micro-manage a couple of small vessels.

[Felix U. Gómez]

China will never be a maritime force to be reckoned with. It has neither the history, resources or need to be a maritime force. With Indias Navy on the rise and ascerting herself Chinas navy will always be second class.

Ahhh..... sure :roll:

[1curious]

Was this before or after the encounter?

If the Chinese public was made aware prior to the leadership in Beijing knowing about this, then it "forced" them to react.
We can only speculate...but given the rigid, centralized, disciplined nature of their Navy, just like any military institution there, I'd think their Navy would not act without the broad policy guidance. The incident occurred right next to their submarine base and obviously they are nervous...what were they trying to achieve long term is beyond me. Perhaps they want to force the US to seize surface surveillance and resort to using the subs 'cos they know those are less capable in terms of range...or may be they want an escalation for some political reason currently discussed like weapons to Taiwan...after all, they stopped the negotiations on the very issues after the last sale...

[bd popeye]

Are they turning Anti US on the chinese boards and forums?

Turning? I've been a member of an Chinese board for 4 years now and some of the members have always been anti- American or anti-west. I'm now super moderator of that English language Chinese military forum.

There are many great members in our Chinese forum. Many! Intelligent, fair, polite and factual. But some of them are very nationalistic even though most not live in China.

That forum, despite what I'm posting below, is much more civil than mp.net. Much more. Because I & other mods put the hammer down on anyone that tries to operate outside of the rules.http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/images/smilies/nunu.gif

I do not intend to offend anyone but on a Chinese military board many of the Nationalistic Chinese members assume the following;

1) China is right no matter the situation.
2) The US hates us as much as we hate them.
3) The US government is always lying about China and anything else.
4) The Western media biased against China.
5) The Western media is controlled by the US government.
6) Americans have no stomach for war.
7) Americans think they can bully any nation.
8) American military equipment does not really work as advertised.
9) China can shoot down an F-22.
10) Any sort of military equipment the US has China has one on the drawing board just a step behind the US.
11) Chinese military equipment is superior to American gear.
12) Refer to my first statement.

I'm not exaggerating.

My main job over there is to keep the discussion within the parameters of the rules. I do not post much in discussion threads. But I do post the very same photos I post here at mp.net.

[Laworkerbee]

But I do post the very same photos I post here at mp.net.

Two Timer!!!

[Kilgor]

We can only speculate...but given the rigid, centralized, disciplined nature of their Navy, just like any military institution there, I'd think their Navy would not act without the broad policy guidance. The incident occurred right next to their submarine base and obviously they are nervous...what were they trying to achieve long term is beyond me. Perhaps they want to force the US to seize surface surveillance and resort to using the subs 'cos they know those are less capable in terms of range...or may be they want an escalation for some political reason currently discussed like weapons to Taiwan...after all, they stopped the negotiations on the very issues after the last sale...

You could have said the same thing about the soviet navy during the Cuban missile crisis. If memory serves me correctly, there was heated arguments on a soviet sub about the course of action to be taken with a nuclear torpedo.

[Maj C]

You could have said the same thing about the soviet navy during the Cuban missile crisis. If memory serves me correctly, there was heated arguments on a soviet sub about the course of action to be taken with a nuclear torpedo.


"Now don't worry, Commodore. The Bedford'll never fire first. But if he fires one, I'll fire one."

"FIRE ONE!"

[ren0312]

Turning? I've been a member of an Chinese board for 4 years now and some of the members have always been anti- American or anti-west. I'm now super moderator of that English language Chinese military forum.

There are many great members in our Chinese forum. Many! Intelligent, fair, polite and factual. But some of them are very nationalistic even though most not live in China.

That forum, despite what I'm posting below, is much more civil than mp.net. Much more. Because I & other mods put the hammer down on anyone that tries to operate outside of the rules.http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/images/smilies/nunu.gif

I do not intend to offend anyone but on a Chinese military board many of the Nationalistic Chinese members assume the following;

1) China is right no matter the situation.
2) The US hates us as much as we hate them.
3) The US government is always lying about China and anything else.
4) The Western media biased against China.
5) The Western media is controlled by the US government.
6) Americans have no stomach for war.
7) Americans think they can bully any nation.
8) American military equipment does not really work as advertised.
9) China can shoot down an F-22.
10) Any sort of military equipment the US has China has one on the drawing board just a step behind the US.
11) Chinese military equipment is superior to American gear.
12) Refer to my first statement.

I'm not exaggerating.

My main job over there is to keep the discussion within the parameters of the rules. I do not post much in discussion threads. But I do post the very same photos I post here at mp.net.

I have to address point 6, the perception is more like that Americans have no stomach for heavy casualties, not that the Americans have no stomach for war, the source of this perception largely comes from Viet Nam, and the way that the US public reacted to a war that the US not only was not losing, but may even be winning, if you look at the colossal tactical failure on the part of the VC that was the Tet Offensive, the fact that despite all of the efforts of the NVA and Victor Charlie, the territorial integrity of South Viet Nam and its sovereignty was still maintained, and that while 58,000 dead may seem like a lot, the body count was still something like 1 to 20 in favor of the Americans, and 1 in 4 in favor of the ARVN, overall not a very bad number, despite the very high casualties on the part of the Americans and the South Viet Namese, and also remember that those 58,000 that died were in 9 years of fighting, in World War 1 in the Western Front that much people were killed in the course of a single battle, as for Somalia, it is true that 19 American soldiers were killed in a single day, but in return they killed something like 10,000 or more Somali militia, so when you put things into perspective, Viet Nam and Somalia, although costly in US lives, are hardly significant military disasters. As for the perception that the Western media is anti-China, I think it would be more proper to say that the perception is that the Western media has a tendency to be biased, and to pick sides while having only limited knowledge of the situation on the ground, that the Western media has gone from reporting, to being an advocacy group.

[timetraveller]

Whats the URL of that site ...

[ayanami_tard]

9) China can shoot down an F-22
i think is is possible though(with VERA-E,S-300,etc)

and i think china have never imagined themselves as some 'communist utopia haven',rather they would like to consider themselves as 'as decent as other developed countries' societies'

[xav]

Turning? I've been a member of an Chinese board for 4 years now and some of the members have always been anti- American or anti-west.

1) China is right no matter the situation.
.
.
.
12) Refer to my first statement.

I'm not exaggerating.


Thanks... I didn't know it was that bad...
I would add:

13) Yet I bet they do enjoy Coca Cola products, listening to US Music/bands and dowload/copy US tv shows and movies...

[Mackie]

China will never be a maritime force to be reckoned with. It has neither the history, resources or need to be a maritime force. With Indias Navy on the rise and ascerting herself Chinas navy will always be second class.

lol
roflrofl

[Lau]

China will never be a maritime force to be reckoned with. It has neither the history, resources or need to be a maritime force. With Indias Navy on the rise and ascerting herself Chinas navy will always be second class.


Are you high or just stupid?

My guess would be both. And let's add ignorance to that. :roll:

Anyway, this whole deal is blown way out of proportions.

[TORA]

Until Taiwan will be an indipendent nation Beijing hardly will able to build up a meaningful Navy capable of power projection in the Pacific as a whole...
It's early, a lot, they need training, experience, logistic and a massive, high quality industry...and actually none of these they have

I wonder how will able the Chinese Navy of power projection in the Indian Ocean, now I don't know the relations between the South East Asian countries and Beijing but in a total war situation the Chinese Navy hardly will able to pass trought the SE Asian archipelago in a situation like the Soviet Black Sea Fleet trought the Dardanelle Strait...

All this about a rising navy at least capable of challenge the US Navy is just fantasy, they are pushing for acquire an aircraft carrier only because they see it like an important factor to show the might of a nation, you can see from their statements :

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h7i1so3EPxByMVNR-a9JPNeiB6vwD96OGIA80

"Building aircraft carriers is a symbol of an important nation," former navy political commissar Hu Yanlin was quoted as saying in Friday's China Daily newspaper.
China's navy is planning major celebrations for its 60th anniversary next month, and Asian media has speculated an announcement about a carrier could be made on that occasion.

They have to many challenges for build up a powerful navy on the short terms, and I highly doubt they will be able...their not in a strategical position both geographically and politically

[Ordie]

^^^
China, like Japan and Korea, are dependent upon Middle East Oil. To ensure that passage is free from any threat, all of these nations build upon a naval fleet capable of securing that passage.

Especially given that the US Navy in the past 10 years has been downsizing in the Far East and focused on Iraq and Afghanistan.

[TORA]

^^^
China, like Japan and Korea, are dependent upon Middle East Oil. To ensure that passage is free from any threat, all of these nations build upon a naval fleet capable of securing that passage.


Mr. Putin will come to Tokyo in May, good prospectives

The only country in Eastern Asia able to be the Sea Power is Japan, strategical position, experience, training, logistic, solid naval industry - no way

[Ordie]

Mr. Putin will come to Tokyo in May, good prospectives

The only country in Eastern Asia able to be the Sea Power is Japan, strategical position, experience, training, logistic, solid naval industry - no way

Even if Russia offers an alternative route, it would take decades to build a pipeline from Southern Russia to Vladivostok.

Even though Japan has a considerable fleet, it is limited by its Constitution.

From my personal experiences with the JMSDF, they are good on maintaining equipment, not agressive or flexible during military exercises. No one questions the skipper and the skipper does not ask for recommendations and options.

More about saving face than admitting to be wrong.

My experiences with the Koreans, never act stupid while drunk in front of a ROK Military Police. They mess you up royaly. They are fanatics and agressive to the core. The kind of people you want on your side.

[Adux]

When it comes to Chinese Navy, Its easy to stop her : Its called the Malacca Straits, and Aircraft carrier called Andaman & Nicobar Islands!

[Ordie]

When it comes to Chinese Navy, Its easy to stop her : Its called the Malacca Straits, and Aircraft carrier called Andaman & Nicobar Islands!

You sound like Mussolini declaring Italy as an unsikable aircraft carrier.

[Adux]

You sound like Mussolini declaring Italy as an unsikable aircraft carrier.

Italy is not the US nor is it an India. Firstly. I was just making a point, a valid point at that, the reason behind the string of pearls strategy and Gwadar, there is no need to sound melodramatic.

[bd popeye]

My experiences with the Koreans, never act stupid while drunk in front of a ROK Military Police. They mess you up royaly. They are fanatics and agressive to the core. The kind of people you want on your side.

Ordie and I are cut from the same cloth..

You never wanna mess with ROK military police. If you do they will play the ROK national anthem on your head and shoulders with a night club.:roll:

During the Vietnam War when ROK Marines would walk into a night/enlisted/club/bar all the US Military would stand up and appalud and buy them anything they wanted. Anything. And that my friends is a no-shi**er...