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EvanL
06-24-2004, 03:27 PM
By Derek Baldwin
Local News - Thursday, June 24, 2004 @ 07:00

Two Canadian warships have arrived in Kingston waters on a hunt for historical gold in Lake Ontario.

HMCS Kingston and HMCS Glace Bay, 55-metre-long coastal defence vessels, cruised past Kingston on Tuesday and will focus their search in coming days in the waters off Prince Edward County.

The ships, outfitted with high-tech underwater scanning gear, a remote vehicle and the navy’s best divers, will launch an ambitious underwater expedition in search of nine jet fighter aircraft models believed to lie on the lakebed.

The models of the ill-fated Avro Arrow are important, given they’re virtually all that remains of the dream to dominate the skies with made-in-Canada jet fighter technology some say was ahead of its time in the 1950s.

The mission marks the first government-backed attempt to find the models, baby Arrows that historians and treasure hunters view as priceless gems awaiting restoration and display in museums across Canada.

Many private expeditions have failed to find the models, believed mired in the lake bottom since the 1950s.

The models, three metres long and two metres wide, were launched over the lake during the design and test phases.

Electronic data recorded from the models helped Arrow designers tweak elements of the plane’s radical design.

As the models screamed through the air at nearly twice the speed of sound, the data furnished military and aviation scientists with reliable data on the plane’s stability that helped in the creation of the full-sized aircraft handcrafted by more than 14,000 workers at A.V. Roe plant in Malton, Ont.

The plane turned heads around the world when its swept-wing design was launched into the skies over Ontario in 1957.

Less than two years after its rollout, then prime minister John Diefenbaker ordered 11 existing planes assembled in the Malton plant – five of which were airworthy – destroyed.

Should one or more intact models be recovered, it would be as close as anyone can come to resurrecting an Arrow.

The two warships are en route to a patch of search waters to be plumbed in early July using sonar devices that will sweep the featureless lake bottom for signs of the models.

Lt.-Cmdr. Scott Healey, commanding officer of HMCS Glace Bay and a Kingston native, said yesterday that Maritime Forces Atlantic is throwing all it can muster at the sunken treasures to identify and retrieve the items from the lakebed.

The ships will be assisted by the Trinity route survey office and the Canadian navy’s fleet diving unit from the Atlantic region.

“We do have all of the gear aboard we’ll need,” said Healey, in a cellphone interview with The Whig-Standard from aboard HMCS Glace Bay.

“We’re just waiting for some clarification on personnel issues.”

Following routine navigation and training exercises in the lake, including a Canada Day weekend visit to Kingston, Healey said both ships will embark on a systematic three-day sweep of waters where the mini Arrows are believed to have splashed down after being fired into the drink from a Canadian Forces launch pad at Point Petre in the southwest corner of Prince Edward County.

“We want to be on station for Monday [July 5],” Healey said. “We will have the side-scan ready first thing Monday morning.”

After conducting their sweep and registering possible targets below the lake surface, Healey said they’ll send in remote operating vehicles to investigate hits registered by the sonar.

The unmanned remote vehicle is called the Phantom and can plunge into very deep waters via expert manipulation from the surface. Live camera images will be relayed from the Phantom to monitors aboard the navy vessels.

“We’ll do Phantom diving in the lake the next day,” Healey said.

When the Arrow program was scrapped in 1959, workers were ordered to hack apart the existing jet fighters.

All things related to the Arrow were also ordered destroyed, including tool dies, design specifications, blueprints and castings.

The destructive reach of the Canadian government and military didn’t extend to the baby Arrows believed buried 70 metres deep in Lake Ontario.

Lou McPherson, 89, is a retired A.V. Roe welder who worked with the company for 27 years.

In an interview yesterday with The Whig, he remembered vividly from his Downsview home the disbelief of his fellow workers as he followed his orders and began cutting the planes to pieces with a welding torch almost 50 years ago.

He cut the nose of one plane completely off, an act that only days before the order would have seemed unthinkable.

“I hated the job of cutting them up but we were ordered to do it,” he said.

“The planes were cut to pieces and I never saved a single piece for a souvenir. We certainly had a good cutting time, shall we say.”

McPherson said he has never understood why a single plane wasn’t saved for posterity.

“Why they never saved one for a museum I’ll never know,” he said.

He said he’s glad to hear that the Canadian military was “finally coming to its senses to save at least something of the Arrow. It would be nice to find them [model Arrows], clean them and put them in a museum.They have a good museum in Trenton and its nearby. The RCAF Museum would be a good place for people to remember the Arrow.”

Not only is the RCAF Memorial Museum near the underwater location of the baby Arrows, it’s also on the grounds of CFB Trenton, the only runway where the Arrow landed away from Malton on one of its many test flights.

The interceptor was forced to an alternate landing because the runway at Malton was reportedly blocked thanks to a wheels-up crash of another aircraft.

The Arrow landed in Trenton on Feb. 2, 1959, only 18 days before the project was abandoned.

Jim Gartshore lives near the Trenton airbase on Highway 2.

He worked on the Orenda engines for the Arrow in Malton.

He told The Whig yesterday he still resents the Conservative government of the day for leaving such a sad legacy for Canadians to ponder.

Gartshore, 76, said he still has conversations with retired A.V. Roe friends and those retired from the Canadian Air Force, all of whom lament the loss of what they believe could’ve been the genesis of a major aircraft industry in Canada.

“Pretty well everyone I know is still very angry about it,” said Gartshore. “They just killed any chance we had at an aircraft industry here at home. No one ever explained to us why they did it. They just did it. I’ve washed my hands of it I’m so disgusted.”

Gartshore said he had mixed feelings at news of the government’s attempt to retrieve the Arrows.

“It’s about time. Finally, they’re going to start looking for these things,” said Gartshore. “I don’t know why they’ve waited so long.”

His son, Dave Gartshore, has grown up listening to the tales of the Arrow’s death and said he’s fascinated about the unwillingness of Canadians to forget the plane.

Dave Gartshore spent a great deal of time and money in a race with other private groups from Toronto and London, Ont., to find the first documented mini Arrow.

In 1999, he was reported to have found one of the Arrow models in deep water about seven kilometres off the southeast tip of Prince Edward County.

His video footage of the metal anomaly discovered on the lakebed by side-scan sonar was confirmed by so-called Arrow experts who compared the images to known blueprints of the models.

Last fall, Gartshore teamed with experts from the well-known shipwreck hunting television show The Sea Hunters and revisited the site of the anomaly.

What Gartshore believed was the first baby Arrow to be found, it’s now believed, was a Velvet Glove missile fired from the same Point Petre launch pad in the early 1950s by the Canadian military.

He welcomed the search by the Canadian navy to find baby Arrow artifacts that have remained so elusive for so many years.

The search, he speculated, may be now underway by the military because of pressure and publicity from private searchers such as himself.

“I’m very pleased the Canadian government is finally getting around to this,” he said. “All I’ve ever cared about is getting them up from the bottom before they disintegrate and are of no good to anyone. I just want these to be in museums for our younger generations to remember what happened so many years ago.”

Gartshore said he has made several pitches to the National Defence to find the Arrows and put them on display at RCAF Memorial Museum in Trenton.

The models are made of magnesium and titanium alloys, metals that can disintegrate if exposed to water for long periods of time, he said.

There were other special characteristics of the models, especially given the limited aeronautical science of the time, he said.

Every model was built to one-eighth scale, weighed about 225 kilograms (500 pounds) and contained two dozen sensors that transmitted critical data, such as air flow along all of the aircraft surfaces, back to scientists on land before the models crashed into the lake.

To shoot skyward, the models were piggybacked on missiles that generated about 45,000 pounds of thrust and propelled both model and missile to a velocity of up to 2,500 kilometres per hour.

When launched, the models were tracked using an FM telemetering system, cameras and radar.

In an interview from his Ottawa home last night, one of Canada’s leading Arrow experts and authors, Palmiro Campagna, said that data suggests the models could lay in waters eight kilometres to 40 kilometres from the launch pad.

“It’s akin to searching for a needle in a haystack,” said Campagna, whose latest of many books on the Arrow, Requiem for a Giant, A.V. Roe Canada and the Avro Arrow, was released in April.

He questioned whether the military will be able to find any of the models using side scan sonar because the technology records images in a sideways fashion. The arrow models may be buried and not easily detected by the sonar.

He suggested that the military might be better off to use what’s called a magnetometer, a device that is also towed behind the ship but has a greater discovery ability because it can detect metals even if they are buried in the sandy lake bottom.

Campagna said he was excited to learn that the military is finally investing time and energy to help find a vital piece of Canadian history feared lost forever.

“People think Diefenbaker put an end to the Arrow but it was the military that ordered everything to be destroyed,” he said. “We don’t know what the reason was to this day. Everything was destroyed except a few pieces we see in museums and the models, if they still exist in Lake Ontario.”

The irony of the military ramping up to search for the models wasn’t lost on Campagna.

After destroying the plane in its infancy, Campagna said “it is very ironic the military is trying to recapture lost history to undo the wrong.”

Even if the search is successful and every model is found in Lake Ontario, there will always remain some Arrow models that may never be found.

While nine were shot into Lake Ontario from 1954 to 1957 at the Canadian Armament Research and Development Establishment at Point Petre, two other were fired into the Atlantic Ocean from Wallops Island range in Virginia.

Those two models have never been found, Campagna said.

b.scheller
06-24-2004, 03:41 PM
stupid diefenbaker...*shakes fist*...i bet you hitler is grilling his ass in hell right now... :lol:

memphiz
06-24-2004, 05:11 PM
Diefenbaker is such a wanker...Canada had somthing great with the Avro

ronin2172
06-24-2004, 05:16 PM
y did they cancel it, financial reasons? I remember seeing a pic of it and it was an impressive looking plane

EvanL
06-24-2004, 05:19 PM
y did they cancel it, financial reasons? I remember seeing a pic of it and it was an impressive looking plane
Pressure from the yanks.
they didnt like the Idea of the plane being canadian. they wanted instead to sell us American Bomarc surface to air missiles.

ronin2172
06-24-2004, 05:22 PM
oops sorry about that :oops: heh heh....

b.scheller
06-24-2004, 05:48 PM
y did they cancel it, financial reasons? I remember seeing a pic of it and it was an impressive looking plane
Pressure from the yanks.
they didnt like the Idea of the plane being canadian. they wanted instead to sell us American Bomarc surface to air missiles.

hahaha...those missiles were ****. as soon as they sold them to us, they said that they didnt work...werent they also suppose to fit them with nuclear warheads?

===============

but yeah, the avro arrow was a very cool machine; very futuristic for its time. i'm sure even now a-days the design looks cool

http://www.exn.ca/news/images/a/arrow-fltline-ongroundbig.jpg

http://www.afwing.com/art/wwii/Lance%20Russwurm/Avro_Arrow.jpg

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/equip/grfx/equip_gallery/historic_gallery/wallpaper/arrow6.jpg

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/equip/grfx/equip_gallery/historic_gallery/wallpaper/arrow.jpg

stuntman
06-24-2004, 06:14 PM
Since when did Canada buy migs? http://www.exn.ca/news/images/a/arrow-fltline-ongroundbig.jpg

b.scheller
06-24-2004, 06:19 PM
hey...read the posts above..troll

stuntman
06-24-2004, 06:34 PM
hey...read the posts above..troll

ur mama's a troll!

Fenna
06-24-2004, 06:37 PM
How come de Havilannd a British company became de Havilland Canada and Avro became Avro Canada?

Lone Predator
06-24-2004, 06:40 PM
hey...read the posts above..troll

ur mama's a troll!


yo neck has a mole!
(no wait thats yo face hahahahha... hah..)

woot

b.scheller
06-24-2004, 06:43 PM
alot of the british aerospace industry came over to Canada during the war, (including de havilland) mainly because we were across the atlantic and that none of our factories were in range of Luftwaffe bombers. (Can't say much for the transpo of the stuff.)

Canada also produced much of the armour for the commonwealth (in Montreal). Anyway de Havilland, stayed in Canada after the war and produced aircraft for the Commonwealth, including the Canadian military.

Eugh, for some reason. I can't seem to write this up well... :|

Fenna
06-24-2004, 06:44 PM
And don't forget Canada isn't the only country to have these aircraft which are ahead of their time but still cancelled. Many of these cancelled aircraft which had revolutionary technology were reincarnated in newer designs, such as the Tornado which used TSR2's technology.

I'm sure this Canadian Talisman. the Arrow, didn't go to waste

Brozozo
06-24-2004, 11:19 PM
No more revolutionary than the B2, Me262, F22, Harrier etc were...

scott
06-24-2004, 11:53 PM
No more revolutionary than the B2, Me262, F22, Harrier etc were...

but none of them were cancelled for political reasons

if anyones keeping score that was a conservative government decision...

b.scheller
06-24-2004, 11:59 PM
No more revolutionary than the B2, Me262, F22, Harrier etc were...

but none of them were cancelled for political reasons

if anyones keeping score that was a conservative government decision...

the liberals would have never have undertaken the initiative...

East
06-25-2004, 12:32 AM
truely a phenominal aircraft. i've always been angered by the waste, since i first heard of it when i was 12 lol :)

scott
06-25-2004, 12:44 AM
No more revolutionary than the B2, Me262, F22, Harrier etc were...

but none of them were cancelled for political reasons

if anyones keeping score that was a conservative government decision...

the liberals would have never have undertaken the initiative...

Alright you shot your credibility to hell when you said that Lester Pearson, Liberal of the era, hands down the best foreign policy playing PM in Canadian history would not undertake a project like the Arrow.

Read up on your history...

East
06-25-2004, 12:53 AM
he was probably just thinking in terms of the gang fok we call the liberal party that we see today.

scott
06-25-2004, 12:56 AM
ahh the anti-liberal military lobby
where have you guys been for the riveting ideological discussions over the past couple months?

East
06-25-2004, 12:59 AM
ahh the anti-liberal military lobby
where have you guys been for the riveting ideological discussions over the past couple months?
take reference to the date i joined...

East
06-25-2004, 01:00 AM
ahh the anti-liberal military lobby
where have you guys been for the riveting ideological discussions over the past couple months?
take reference to the date i joined...and i also usually try to stay out of political discussions, bad for the blood pressure...

Mongrel
06-25-2004, 03:44 AM
A great machine, and ahead of its time. With all due respect to the US members here, Canada should have said F**k you and kept the Arrows.

I'm sensing that the same kind'a politic$ are the reason we might be getting US made Strykers. Like can't we build something ourselves? And outside of freeking Quebec. Can DND come to BC we will build an Assualt vehicle for yah..lots of surpluss logging trucks around. :cantbeli:

Here is a great arrow site:
http://www.avroarrow.org/

Cheers!
M.

ZeroPositive
06-25-2004, 04:06 AM
prime minister John Diefenbaker should have been shot....
I watched this movie based on the design and making of the jet and watching at the end the Jet take to the sky was so amazing... and it being destroyed was friking upsetting.....

oldsoak
06-25-2004, 06:16 AM
Canadians had this incredible spurt just after the war where they were pretty much a front runner in technology - Avro Arrow , Orenda jet turbine - all gone. Even the Arrows production jigs were destroyed , just lie our TSR2. Must have been heartbreaking for the designers and engineers who put all that graft into it.

Mongrel
06-25-2004, 06:22 AM
There is rumour that some of this Avro stuff was hidden away by engineers on the project.

Only time will tell if anything is really left or not. Would be nice to wheel out a mothballed but intact jet.

Cheers!
M.

ronin2172
06-25-2004, 06:25 AM
the brits have their share of aviation horror stories....one thing i could never understand was y they gave away so much (poor Frank Whittle) the fact they gave the Rolls Royce engine to the russians (if i remember this correctly)over a game of billiards still makes me wonder.... :cantbeli:

tony6
06-25-2004, 08:09 AM
Yeah-Avro was pretty cool machine.
Some of its designers/constructor were Polish (emigrated from Poland). Also two of its test-pilots were Polish (Zurakowski and the other one-I don't remeber his name).

arrowrec
06-25-2004, 09:20 AM
Why would we Canadians pay the millions of dollars for these ships to steam to the lakes from the east coast, and then treasure hunt??
You were kind enough to note our website, www.avroarrow.org, we are licensed by the Ontario govt to search for these large scale models, the navy is not helping us, we need no help, plus we are not paid volunteers. It's come out that the AHFC group in Toronto has initiated this, as they have been unable to find anything in over 10 years of searching. We on the other hand have been sucessfull and located 4 probable boosters, and are on the verge of locating the models. We have been working on this project since 1998, and are incensed that this is happening. We have spent thousands of our donated dollars and years of research on this search, in fact our search last week was so incrediable that we had to stop to notify the Ont gov about our new find!!!
When our soldiers are lacking in equipment and getting killed fighting in Afganastan, WHY WOULD WE PAY FOR SOMETHING THAT WAS BEEING DONE FOR FREE!??
Training exercise what a pile of BS, this is politics.
THis is another waste of our money by the Liberals, and I might add, please remember this when you vote next week.!!

b.scheller
06-25-2004, 02:11 PM
he was probably just thinking in terms of the gang fok we call the liberal party that we see today.

yes thanks east, thats exactly what I meant. Lester Person was a great Prime Minister and a great politician, he respected our forces and wouldnt have dismantled the Avro project. I was merely reffering to todays Liberals.

perdurabo
06-25-2004, 04:37 PM
One of the main ppl in Avro Arrow programe was pole Żurakowski woot

b.scheller
06-25-2004, 06:19 PM
I had met Jan Zurakowski, unfortunetly this past year he died; he had been battling luekemia for quite a long time.