Tavor made in Brazil [Archive]

pretorian669

03-13-2009, 01:42 AM

It seems that after India and Ukraine Brazil is the next country to produce the Tavor. The weapon system will be produced by Taurus.

Source: http://www.sibat.mod.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/164EA1EC-3342-4CF1-9EA1-CE43FC59948A/0/IWI.pdf

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/TAVOR/aaa.sized.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/TAVOR/aab.sized.jpg

doctor rizz

03-13-2009, 07:13 PM

Does that mean maybe a U.S legal civilian version from Brazil?

pmj

03-13-2009, 07:43 PM

interesting. does that mean that brazil is about to adopt the tavor as its new assault rifle?

3rdMillhouse

03-14-2009, 01:12 AM

Does that mean maybe a U.S legal civilian version from Brazil?

Quite possible.

PS: answering to PMJ >> We'll have to wait on the army's final word on that matter.

Bro Jangles

03-14-2009, 01:27 AM

Does that mean maybe a U.S legal civilian version from Brazil?
would have to be made in the US, does Taurus have us plants?

3rdMillhouse

03-14-2009, 01:31 AM

would have to be made in the US, does Taurus have us plants?

Well, Taurus sells revolvers to US market, but I don't know whether they have assembly plants in ths US.

Bro Jangles

03-14-2009, 01:37 AM

Well, Taurus sells revolvers to US market, but I don't know whether they have assembly plants in ths US.military style rifles can no longer be imported into the us, they have to be completely assembled in the US

capixaba

03-14-2009, 10:33 AM

Checked out the Taurus website www.taurusarmas.com.br/ (http://www.taurusarmas.com.br/), but no mention of the Tavor in the news releases yet.
I had a look also on the Taurus US website www.taurususa.com (http://www.taurususa.com), but it's news page is not updated.

BJ
http://www.taurusmim.com/ has info about manufacturing, but is more related to materials/component parts. Didn't find it right now but I'm sure there is a manufacturing plant (handguns and small calibre rifles)

kahn267

03-14-2009, 10:33 AM

What happens in terms of legalities?

Do such companies pay IWI on-going royalties, A one-off licencing fee, assemble it from parts manufactured by IWI and stamp it with their brand name or something else??

pmj

03-14-2009, 02:04 PM

Quite possible.

PS: answering to PMJ >> We'll have to wait on the army's final word on that matter.

Does that mean that the Brazilian army is offcially looking for a new assault rifle? or is it just limited fielding to special regiments?

3rdMillhouse

03-14-2009, 02:13 PM

Does that mean that the Brazilian army is offcially looking for a new assault rifle? or is it just limited fielding to special regiments?

The brazilian army is officialy looking for a new assault rifle, chambered in the 556 caliber.

They were previously developing an indigenous rifle, the MD-97LC, but the rifle has failed the homologation tests, and so far has only seen limited action in the hands of some police forces across the countries, and some battalions who adopted it on experimental basis.

Some regiments have already been issued with M4A1 carbines, notably the Special Ops Brigade and the Commando's Actions Battalion.

pmj

03-14-2009, 02:24 PM

The brazilian army is officialy looking for a new assault rifle, chambered in the 556 caliber.

They were previously developing an indigenous rifle, the MD-97LC, but the rifle has failed the homologation tests, and so far has only seen limited action in the hands of some police forces across the countries, and some battalions who adopted it on experimental basis.

Some regiments have already been issued with M4A1 carbines, notably the Special Ops Brigade and the Commando's Actions Battalion.

thanks for the info. they should let the bope-guys try out the tavor.
With its mostly polymer construction the tavor should do well in Brazil's tropical climate.

3rdMillhouse

03-14-2009, 02:32 PM

thanks for the info. they should let the bope-guys try out the tavor.
With its mostly polymer construction the tavor should do well in Brazil's tropical climate.

I agree with your suggestion, it's pretty reasonable since they get to see way more action than other police units, or even the army itself. But it's most likely that some select units from the SF community will get to do some extensive trials on the rifle, at Marambaia Proving Grounds.

PS: an interesting fact >>> back in the 80s, there were already some talks about replacing the FAL with some 5.56x45mm rifle, back then Taurus had secured a license to manufacture and assemble the Galil here, for a very cheap price, considerably cheaper than the M16 for instance.

Limeyfellow

03-15-2009, 01:34 AM

military style rifles can no longer be imported into the us, they have to be completely assembled in the US

I always found that 89 ban rather annoying. Prop up the prices of domestic makers by blocking the competition, so they can charge even more money. It gotten even worse since the ban on barrels and other part kits enacted a few years ago.

pmj

03-15-2009, 07:48 AM

I agree with your suggestion, it's pretty reasonable since they get to see way more action than other police units, or even the army itself. But it's most likely that some select units from the SF community will get to do some extensive trials on the rifle, at Marambaia Proving Grounds.

PS: an interesting fact >>> back in the 80s, there were already some talks about replacing the FAL with some 5.56x45mm rifle, back then Taurus had secured a license to manufacture and assemble the Galil here, for a very cheap price, considerably cheaper than the M16 for instance.

Are there any other official candidates? Who else is submitting rifles?
Adopting the Tavor however would make sense given that past history of manufacturing Galil rifles in Brazil as you have pointed out.

SilentType

03-15-2009, 07:09 PM

interesting. does that mean that brazil is about to adopt the tavor as its new assault rifle?

Depends on the license agreement in whether they are allowed by IWI to do that. I HIGHLY DOUBT that IWI would allow them to produce or sell it outside of Brazil though or at least would have limited the region where they could sell the Tavor. They wouldn't want to create a competitor for business or at least I would think.

However, if Taurus could under the license agreement build the receiver and barrel within the United States through a type 10 FFL they could import the other parts made in Brazil through a Type 11 FFL (obviously could be the same party if had both FFL licenses) than yes they could sell it within the United States without modification to the design.

This is basically what Steyr is doing with the new Steyr AUG A3. They are having Sabre Defense in the USA as a Type 10 FFL build under contract for them the A3's receiver and barrel and then are importing the other parts from Austria and assembling the whole thing at Steyr Arms Inc. (Type 11 FFL) in the United States.

In short, if Taurus already had the factor space in the U.S. they could tool-up for barrels and receivers for the Tavor alone and crank out Tavor's for law abiding U.S. Citizens pretty darn easily.

pretorian669

03-15-2009, 07:57 PM

Soldat_Américain

03-15-2009, 08:14 PM

pretorian669

03-15-2009, 08:37 PM

So off, I thought IMI made everything in Israel. Basically since the US Army is shopping for a replacement to the M16A4/M4 family, I think Colt should pay license and let me have a Tavor for my service rifle in the next couple of years. And if they made it a 6.8mm weapon then it would be even better, since some people seem to think we need a new cartridge.

IMI does not manufacture small arms anymore. The IMI small arms factory was sold a few years ago to a private investor named Sami Katsavlink (http://www.israel-weapon.com/default.asp?catid={F41F454F-7F6B-49AA-92C4-8EF165929953}). Today it's called IWI -Israel Weapon Industries.

Since the ACR program the US Army didn't seriously consider any bullpup rifle.
About "I thought IMI made everything in Israel" I heard that some parts of the Jericho handgun are outsourced to Italy.

3rdMillhouse

03-16-2009, 01:41 PM

pretorian669

03-16-2009, 02:55 PM

Not gonna happen, the M4 is still a far more versatile rifle, when it comes to attachment of accesories, when compared to the TAR-21.

You can have a Picatiny rail on top of the Tavor too. 4 rails on the handguard is also possible especially on the Micro Tavor/X-95 but also on the regular Tavor.

Soldat_Américain

03-16-2009, 05:19 PM

therefore sign me up

SilentType

03-16-2009, 05:46 PM

SilentType

I'm not sure I understand. If the receiver and the barrel are made in the US and the final assembly is in the US than the Tavor would be considered "made in US"?

Isn't there a certain percentage of the parts(besides the barrel and the receiver) that have to be made in the US for the weapon to be considered made in the US?

According to some sources from IWI (nothing official of course) 60% of the Tavor is allready made in the US but assembled in Israel.

Well, they can't import the barrel and receiver at all.

They would defintely have to have the barrel and receiver made in the USA.

All the other parts could be imported, but when assembled they would still be under a parts count restriction of 18 USC 922(r) in that no more than 10 imported parts can be used in the final assembled rifle. However, outside of the barrel and receiver that must be US made they would be free to decide which parts they wanted to make U.S. and which they wanted to import.

Soldat_Américain

03-16-2009, 06:25 PM

well you could just send it to an address in Canada and cross the border some place in like North Dakota and go get it...

ColinP

03-17-2009, 01:14 AM

We already have the Tavor for sale in Canada, my friend brings them in. I love it, but the price is to much for me, so I bought the type 97 instead.

http://www.canadaammo.com/product.php?productid=12&cat=0&page=1

Bro Jangles

03-17-2009, 01:45 AM

well you could just send it to an address in Canada and cross the border some place in like North Dakota and go get it...yeah, if jails not a huge concern for you.

Soldat_Américain

03-17-2009, 04:05 AM

yeah, if jails not a huge concern for you.
I'm just stating that the border is a little porous in the north, but keeping the weapon on the DL after might be a little difficult.

SilentType

03-17-2009, 06:00 PM

Does anyone know of a range in Canada that rents the Tavor out?

Also, I have looked at Krav Maga courses in Israel and see that some of them offer a little range time for the students. Would these be just UZI's and M16's or do they have Tavors? Anybody know?

ColinP

03-18-2009, 12:39 AM

No range in Canada rents them out, if you sign up for Canadiangunnutz, and do well you might convince someone to let you try theirs when you are in Canada. You can rent the FS2000 in Vegas, the SAF discovery centre in Singapore allows you to shoot air operated versions of the SAF 21 which is very similar to the Tavor.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2241/img1468iq7.jpg

REMOV

03-19-2009, 06:36 PM

It seems that after India and Ukraine Brazil is the next country to produce the Tavor. The weapon system will be produced by Taurus.Ukraine is not a manufacturer of the Tavor assault rifle. The Fort is only the importer and any TAR-21s were purchased by Ukrainian police or military. Do not trust every ad p-)

http://altair.com.pl/files/news/2008/10/i-i08-10-053tavor_03.jpg

LuKaZz

03-20-2009, 10:19 AM

About "I thought IMI made everything in Israel" I heard that some parts of the Jericho handgun are outsourced to Italy.

That's correct, the frame is from the Tanfoglio Force pistol, I have one in .22lr and it looks identical to that of the Jericho.

pretorian669

03-21-2009, 04:16 AM

Ukraine is not a manufacturer of the Tavor assault rifle. The Fort is only the importer and any TAR-21s were purchased by Ukrainian police or military. Do not trust every ad p-)

http://altair.com.pl/files/news/2008/10/i-i08-10-053tavor_03.jpg

Are you sure? I remember reading things like "Ukraine bought production rights..." and "Produced in Ukraine by Fort".
Are you saying FORT is only the importer of Israeli made Tavors ?
Aren't the displayed ones below marked as "MADE IN UKRAINE" or "MADE BY FORT" ?

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/TAVOR/aac.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/TAVOR/aad.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/TAVOR/aae.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/TAVOR/aaf.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/TAVOR/aag.jpg

REMOV

03-21-2009, 05:41 AM

Are you sure?Yes, I am sure.
I remember reading things like "Ukraine bought production rights..." and "Produced in Ukraine by Fort". You're absolutely right, thats why I wrote "do not trust every ad". In fact this is just an element of the promotion campain, the IWI made a few (no more than 5 or 10 I think) plastic receiver with Ukrainian, Fort signs. Rest of that rifle is purely Israeli with beads of American swear, if you know what I am saying p-)
Are you saying FORT is only the importer of Israeli made Tavors?Yes. With small numbers of purchased rifles (if there will be any government orders) the Fort will be only importer, if the order quantity will be enough, than maybe, just maybe, part of production will take place in the Ukraine. But, this is a future, there is no Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs or Ministry of Defence Tavor orders.
Aren't the displayed ones below marked as "MADE IN UKRAINE" or "MADE BY FORT" ?Sure. All of the promotional rifles have Ukrainian signs. And that's all. They wern't manufactured in Ukraine.

pretorian669

03-21-2009, 05:55 AM

Thanks Remov.

soldier20

03-22-2009, 01:37 AM

.

about your avatour is that israils new style or some other country

ColinP

03-22-2009, 05:08 AM

That's correct, the frame is from the Tanfoglio Force pistol, I have one in .22lr and it looks identical to that of the Jericho.

In fact they also produced a 1911 for the US market that was remarkably similar in tooling, finish as a Norinco 1911. p-)

pretorian669

03-22-2009, 05:41 AM

about your avatour is that israils new style or some other country

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Almani-Test/aax.jpg

No. US camouflage is used in limited numbers/units. Mostly training,OPFOR etc...
It is me in the picture during testing of some locally produced sound suppressors.
More pictures and videos here: http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/Almani-Test

pretorian669

03-22-2009, 05:45 AM

In fact they also produced a 1911 for the US market that was remarkably similar in tooling, finish as a Norinco 1911. p-)
By "they" you mean Italians?

ColinP

03-22-2009, 08:22 PM

By "they" you mean Italians?

Actually they were marketed here and the US by IWI if I recall correctly. I just thought it's interesting that IWI would have an EXACT copy of the Norinco 1911 with IWI markings.....:)

Bul used to make polymer frames for Kimber as well.

SilentType

03-28-2009, 10:19 PM

Being that the Tavor is a bullpup and the barrel sits so far back within the rifle I wonder how well the surrounding polymer holds up under sustained fire? I see the vents cut for cooling, but still. What's it look like inside around the barrel? Just bare polymer?

REMOV

03-30-2009, 05:55 AM

What's it look like inside around the barrel? Just bare polymer?The air. The Tavor has free floating barrel p-)

pretorian669

03-30-2009, 10:22 PM

The air. The Tavor has free floating barrel p-)

Remov

The Tavor barrel is not really free floating. The cocking handle guide/"upper hand guard" that is also the base for the front sight is attached to the barrel.The Micro Tavor is another story...

SilentType

04-01-2009, 12:21 AM

Still even free floating the Tavor's surrounding polymer is holding up well under sustained fire? Seems like high temperature combined with the venting heat off the barrel under periods of sustained automatic fire would take it's toll on the polymer.

Is there a metal heat shield at all?

REMOV

04-01-2009, 07:20 AM

The Tavor barrel is not really free floating.None of gas operated assault rifles have got "really free floating" barrels ;)
The cocking handle guide/"upper hand guard" that is also the base for the front sight is attached to the barrel.Right, but our interlocutor asked about different aspect. The barrel is not in direct contact with polymer receiver.

http://www.abload.de/thumb/tar-bar6j82.jpg (http://www.abload.de/img/tar-bar6j82.jpg)

REMOV

04-01-2009, 07:29 AM

Still even free floating the Tavor's surrounding polymer is holding up well under sustained fire?Could you define what is for you "sustained fire" from assault rifle? How many shots or magazines?
Seems like high temperature combined with the venting heat off the barrel under periods of sustained automatic fire would take it's toll on the polymer.I don't think so. During normal assault rifle use there is no chance for polymer to melt.

3rdMillhouse

04-01-2009, 12:58 PM

REMOV

04-01-2009, 01:00 PM

Ekhm... do you know what "assault rifle" is?

pretorian669

04-02-2009, 08:08 AM

1000 rounds of sustained fire.

You would have to carry 34 30round magazines or 10 CMAGs or 7 CLMAGs. How big is your vest? :)

Read this:Fire to Destruction Test of 5.56mm M4A1 carbine and M16A2 Rifle Barrels.
http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA317929&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

M16A2 barrel destroyed after 491 rounds of sustained fire at 2:49 minutes
M4A1 barrel destroyed after 596 round of sustained fire at 3:32 minutes

LuKaZz

04-02-2009, 12:15 PM

In fact they also produced a 1911 for the US market that was remarkably similar in tooling, finish as a Norinco 1911. p-)

I don't think they actually export that in the States, I always thought it was only for the Italian market.

I disagree on the quality though, to me it felt much nicer than a Norinco, the finish was miles away.

highdiver_2000

04-02-2009, 11:56 PM

Could you define what is for you "sustained fire" from assault rifle? How many shots or magazines? I don't think so. During normal assault rifle use there is no chance for polymer to melt.

Well sitting close to fire to keep warm might.

I heard a cadet from another army, left his rifle (not Tavor) too near the fire and fell asleep. When he woke up, part of the stock was melted.

pretorian669

04-03-2009, 02:09 AM

Well sitting close to fire to keep warm might.

I heard a cadet from another army, left his rifle (not Tavor) too near the fire and fell asleep. When he woke up, part of the stock was melted.

So would a M4,G36,F2000 stock or any other Polymer stock for that matter...:roll:

3rdMillhouse

04-03-2009, 12:45 PM

Ekhm... do you know what "assault rifle" is?

Do you ever heard of testing a weapon before fielding it? Making sure that the durability of the parts are the best possible, even for those improbable/impossible scenarios.

Well sitting close to fire to keep warm might.

I heard a cadet from another army, left his rifle (not Tavor) too near the fire and fell asleep. When he woke up, part of the stock was melted.

This one is not a very bright fellow.

pretorian669

04-20-2009, 06:36 AM

Tavor at LAAD2009

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/TAVOR/aak.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/TAVOR/aal.jpg

Relevant links:

http://www.taurus.com.br/?on=noticias&noticia_id=116

http://noticiasmilitares.blogspot.com/2009/04/taurus-fecha-acordo-com-israelenses.html

Tikvah

04-23-2009, 12:18 AM

1000 rounds of sustained fire.

It's an assault rifle... Not a machine gun.
FYI, we Israelis don't use automatic fire on our assault rifles. I never understood the point. It's inaccurate and wasteful. The Micro Tavor doesn't even come with an automatic fire option, only safe and semi.

Bro Jangles

04-23-2009, 01:14 AM

It's an assault rifle... Not a machine gun.
FYI, we Israelis don't use automatic fire on our assault rifles. I never understood the point. It's inaccurate and wasteful. The Micro Tavor doesn't even come with an automatic fire option, only safe and semi.
thats interesting. why only the micro? is it because it mainly goes to commandos?