Moscow Hostage Incident

[Sayeret]

What is everyone's opinion on this was it a success or failure? If you were the Russian government what would've you done.

I will get this thread locked if anyone starts any flame wars.

[RomanS]

As for the government, I dont know. I don't care. I dont' like governments.

As for the Special Forces - this was the most succsesful Special Forces operation ever.

All terrorists killed, no losses amongst the operators. Beautiful entry.

The guys had to go in without gas masks. Some team members were almost falling asleep while storming, and they still performed beautifuly.

Afte the storm, the medics needed to come in. Alfa was evacutating most of the hostages. HEROISM!

God bless them

[Fargin]

half planned operation.

The assault, neutralizing threats: all fine.

Rescuing the unconscious hostages: poor.

[droopy]

The actual CT operation was brilliant BUT what i would have done is to get ALL the ambulances in Moscow at the incident site ASAP or imediatly as the entry happend.
The failure that resulted in 200 deaths was not the CT units but of the emergency crews IMO.

[Vlad]

Given the circumstances, very succesful operation. They should have made more ambulances ready, out of sight of cameras prior to the entry.

[ronin2172]

i would hardly categorize it as the most successful spec op ever.....
granted the tactical situation was rough and the approach was novel but in the end too many hostages died to be considered the most succesful ever....if u r talking about hostage rescue attempts the most successful that come to mind r Entebbe, Op Nimrod (Iranian Embassy siege in London), and Mogadishu (GSG9s op to rescue the Lufthansa passengers) my bad the GIGN op to rescue the passengers of the Air France plane in Marseille was another good one.
I'm not pissing on russian SF (I don't know if a western unit coulda done better) but it was not the most succesful op

[RomanS]

i would hardly categorize it as the most successful spec op ever.....
granted the tactical situation was rough and the approach was novel but in the end too many hostages died to be considered the most succesful ever....if u r talking about hostage rescue attempts the most successful that come to mind r Entebbe, Op Nimrod (Iranian Embassy siege in London), and Mogadishu (GSG9s op to rescue the Lufthansa passengers) my bad the GIGN op to rescue the passengers of the Air France plane in Marseille was another good one.
I'm not pissing on russian SF (I don't know if a western unit coulda done better) but it was not the most succesful op

Before YOU state antoher brain fart

ask yourself...

HOW MUCH EXPLOSIVES WERE INSIDE. HOW MANY STREETS WOULD DISAPEAR if one bomb would of gone off.

This operation was announced as the most succsesful operation by SPEC OPS (History Channel)

[droopy]

Well there were embassy rescues,plane rescues,train rescues but it was never in modern histrory a Theather rescue that involved 40 terrorists and 700 hostages.
There were to many terrorists and hostages for supressed weapons and CQB to work the GAS was a good solution under the circumstances but fatal for so many people due to bad ER crews.

[UoUo]

Given the circumstances, very succesful operation. They should have made more ambulances ready, out of sight of cameras prior to the entry.

I seccend that.

[ronin2172]

re read my post....i didn't say it was a flop...i didn't say it was the least successful....and i didn't say they were wrong for doing what they did, and i didn't say that a western unit could have done better...u taking this too personal...personally i think entebee was the most successful....hell flying a force of C130s all the way to Uganda under the nose of the egyptian airforce and then rescuing the hostages then flying them out again is no mean feat. If one Ugandan soldier hat been able to hit one of those C130s it could have been a disaster...

[RomanS]

re read my post....i didn't say it was a flop...i didn't say it was the least successful....and i didn't say they were wrong for doing what they did, and i didn't say that a western unit could have done better...u taking this too personal...personally i think entebee was the most successful....hell flying a force of C130s all the way to Uganda under the nose of the egyptian airforce and then rescuing the hostages then flying them out again is no mean feat. If one Ugandan soldier hat been able to hit one of those C130s it could have been a disaster...

ronin, I understood.
but think about it this way. All the past hostage rescues, how much explosives were involved? If the bomb would of go off. 700 instantly dead. Now add another 2000-3000. Emergency workers, police, people near by.

[UkrainianAmerican]

As was said previously, the spetsnaz did their job FLAWlessly. However, there should have been a LOT more medics at the scene. SO many ppl died from choking on their own vomit (which is COMPLETELY preventable by any first aid-certified person)

[Abbyy]

I seccend that.

I couldn't find this word in English dictionary :)

[UoUo]

I seccend that.

I couldn't find this word in English dictionary :)

:lol:

Soory..i have very bad english..

I mean that i agree with him.

[b.scheller]

the ops was a success but perhaps not so much from the hostage rescue point of view.

i'm guessing we are talking about the theatre rescue right...

[IDFM203]

****-Dila :D (I hope I said that right ;) )




This operation was announced as the most succsesful operation by SPEC OPS (History Channel)Come on now I wouldnt say its the best of all time, I mean I don’t think you can compare it to Entebbe........don’t you think?

But yes it was a good operation, considering the circumstances.

I mean if the founder of our Yamam, which IMO is the best hostage rescue unit in the world, gives his approval (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/777539/posts), well that’s all I need to see if this was a ok Op. or not ;)

Let me end off with something that I think you might find interesting and surprising (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=223774&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=223774) ;) :D

Shalom :D

[ronin2172]

i understand your point...like i said it was a f****d up situation, it was a nightmare and their approach was in all likelehood the right one...there isn't too much else they could have done.
Honestly it was a ballsy thing to try, it's just too bad so many people died but as u stated there were other circumstances that came into play, that the SF guys had no control over

Good point about the explosives, and u r right those other ops didn't have that factor to contend with...although the French had reason to suspect the terrorists were planning to blow up the Air France plane over Paris as they asked for more fuel than was necessary to fly there....in effect the plane itself was potentially a bomb (i don't know whether or not they found any explosives)

[5jumpchump]

I look at it like this . The worst that could have happened didn't . The bombs could have gone off killing everyone inside , the building would have caught fire and start a major fire threatening the surrounding buildings , a lot of police and Special forces could have died in the blast as well as the family member waiting outside , and the victory for the Chechens would have made history . But it didn't happen .All the chechans were dispatched and the bombs didn't go off . Although the collateral damage was unfortunate and there simply wasn't enough Emergency vehicles and personnel to handle the situation I still call it a victory for the Russians . Much respect for the guys who went in there and did their job .

[Flagg]

this was the most succsesful Special Forces operation ever.


This operation was announced as the most succsesful operation by SPEC OPS (History Channel)

Based on what criteria?

I think it's realistic to think that the common end goal of all hostage rescue missions is to have as many hostages and hostage rescuers still breathing once the bullets stop flying.

In this case, a substantial number of hostages died immediately following the rescue mission as a result of the debilitating gas used.

It would appear poor communications/logistics likely played a significant role in the deaths of many hostages based on open source information available at the time.

Comparing special forces operations "the most successful" is like arguing which is better Manchester United or the Dallas Cowboys?

[Undo]

I think Permskii has a point though, about the explosives. You have to keep in mind that there were 700KG of explosives involved, so that sets it apart from every other hostage rescue situation. Also, the number of hostages being held was significant. You also need to qualify the question. From the tactical point of view, it could not possibly have gone better. The breachers had no control over the emergency medicine/antidote situation.

So overall, I think "most successful" isn't a stretch, given the potential loss of life and the difficulty of the situation.

[anonymous individual]

Is there any official figure stating how the death told would be, if all bombs were set off at once?

[Undo]

I look at it like this . The worst that could have happened didn't . The bombs could have gone off killing everyone inside , the building would have caught fire and start a major fire threatening the surrounding buildings , a lot of police and Special forces could have died in the blast as well as the family member waiting outside , and the victory for the Chechens would have made history . But it didn't happen .All the chechans were dispatched and the bombs didn't go off . Although the collateral damage was unfortunate and there simply wasn't enough Emergency vehicles and personnel to handle the situation I still call it a victory for the Russians . Much respect for the guys who went in there and did their job .

700kg would have done more than set the building on fire. That's over 1500lbs of HE.

[RomanS]

1800 + would be gone

[American Patriot]

Was it one big 700kg bomb or sum of all explosives found on the bodies?

Because if it is the total amount found it doesn't necessarily they would all go off. e.g: One suicide bomber detonates her bomb and the rest of the bombers are incapacitated and their bombs do not detonate because they are too far away from the detonation point.

[RomanS]

Was it one big 700kg bomb or sum of all explosives found on the bodies?

Because if it is the total amount found it doesn't necessarily they would all go off. e.g: One suicide bomber detonates her bomb and the rest of the bombers are incapacitated and their bombs do not detonate because they are too far away from the detonation point.

and you know this, because...

[American Patriot]

physics

[Omz222]

Well, I'd say that it prevented another disaster, but would there be any better ways of finishing off such raid? I'm pretty sure that the Spetsnaz may be able to conduct a better and less "gas" raid, and that would saved many valuable lives even if they brought more ambulances along.

[RomanS]

physics

Do you have any idea what happens inside of an armored vehicle if one round cooks off?

Now, take all the steel casings out and leave the powder, and expolosive rounds inside.

Do more physics.

[Sayeret]

Because if it is the total amount found it doesn't necessarily they would all go off. e.g: One suicide bomber detonates her bomb and the rest of the bombers are incapacitated and their bombs do not detonate because they are too far away from the detonation point.

Not all the bombs were suicide bombs, I remember hearing about how they had placed bombs in different ponts so that if they went off it would destroy the building. If you've seen pictures of the incident you probably would've seen the bombs placed on chairs and around walls and other things.

[Abbyy]

There was two big bombs installed inside able to destroy whole place just by pulling single trigger.
Plus about 20 suicide bombers sitted by perimeter of auditorium and were able to kill everyone inside just by setting off own bombs filled with shrapnel

[American Patriot]

There was two big bombs installed inside able to destroy whole place.
Plus about 20 suicide bombers sitted by perimeter of auditorium and were able to kill everyone inside just by setting off own bombs filled with shrapnel

That explains, thanks.





http://cache.*****images.com/comp/50991364.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=D5C980AC33A356159DA5CD3B29F649E4A9C30E9B9B114CE8

It takes a lot of pressure to set off C4..

[RomanS]

http://compromat.ru/main/chechya/image/baraevmovsar2000_1.jpg

[StarvingStudent47]

I think two things were seriously wrong with this operation:

1) Not enough ambulances ready to go. They knew they would have 700 people who had just been gassed. They should have been prepared to handle them.

2) The doctors did not know what gas was used, and Spetsnaz did not tell them for quite a while! (I can't remember if it was hours or days) Many of the hostages were alive when they reached the hospital but died from overexposure to the gas (compunded by hunger, dehydration, and stress). Had the doctors known what gas was used, they could have treated and saved many of these people. This is simply inexcusable--a relic of Soviet-era secrecy-for-the-sake-of-secrecy.

The Spetsnaz performed admirably at killing all the terrorists while preventing them from exploding the bombs. No one can deny that.

As for "best raid ever," there are too many variables. True, one soldier was lost at Entebbe, and no Spetsnaz were lost here. But the Entebbe raid was in a hostile foreign country. It was not a building in Tel Aviv. That counts for a LOT.

[MEGR]

I'm going to base my response from what I saw from the History Channel. For a military SOF CT mission, it was almost flawless. Using gas to knock out hundreds of people was audacious, but worked. The effort to recover knocked out people was the problem. The history channel showed that basic logistics, like putting huge trucks in front of rescue vehicles, getting the right directions to the hostpital and such was a big problem. Yes, according to the history channel, the busses (commercial busses) were lost while getting to the hospital. Overall, the Russian commandos did a helluva job. However, the logistical effort as a whole, which involved police, ambulances, firemen, and military didn't work as planned, and people died.

I'm no expert, but the storming was great, but little details about where to place certain things, and providing information to certain members is just as important as storming the place, and killing all the tangos.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Note: Im just going to write my response in a paragraph as its much easier....I am a civillian and in no way am I an expert in this subject

I've followed Russian army activities for a long time, for some reason the Russian army peaks my attention. I've heard of many operations, but this one takes the cake. From the planning to executing was well done, there were things that were overlooked (ambulances unfortuneatly one of them).

What makes this whole operation more difficult was it wasnt in some remote region in the middle of no-were. They had the media breathing down there necks the whole time watching there every move. Well planned, well executed.

[Russian Texan]

Did it ever occur to any of you that there might be a reason why there weren't enough or for that matter any ambulances on site?

Do you think that having 700 ambulances in the immidiate vicinity of the theatre might have given away preparations for the attack? Even an oral order to keep 700 ambulances ready would be impossible to keep secret. And in case you didn't know, terrorists had cell phones, TVs and informants in the crowd to provide them with information about everything that going on around the building.

Given the circumstances: 45 heavily armed experienced professionals, building wired with explosives and suicide bombers spread among 700 + hostages (I'm sorry, but I don'd see how you can even compare Iranian embassy situation to this), whoever stormed the building has done a brilliant job. The loss of human life is always regretful, but...

In my opinion, three most impressive (known to public) SF operations are(in no particular order): assault on Amin's palace, Entebbe raid and Moscow theatre hostage rescue.

[ArtofPain]

As was said previously, the spetsnaz did their job FLAWlessly. However, there should have been a LOT more medics at the scene. SO many ppl died from choking on their own vomit (which is COMPLETELY preventable by any first aid-certified person)
Man I was there, if you want I may tell you more...

[Caribou Kid]

The Peruvian Embassy take-down is probably the most flawless spec op, in my books. Catching the Bad Guys out playing soccer and blowing out the whole damn floor from underneath them! What a classic!

As mentioned by StarvingStudent47, After the assault was initiated, not telling the Doctors EXACTLY what particular type of gas they needed an antidote for wasn't really the best way for this operation to end. That old Soviet-era Government paranoia reflex kicks in pretty quickly; Remember when the Kursk sank? Stone-faced denial, in the face of cold logic, once again. What a sad way to end a noble rescue attempt, but indeed, as our Russian militaryphotos.net bretheren have astutely pointed out, it could have been much, MUCH worse.
700 kgs of damn near anything can't be good for you, much less fricken' explosives!

My respect to the brave operators that stormed the terrorists that day. woot

[Flagg]

assault on Amin's palace

You mean where the assault commander got smoked blue on blue?

-2 points when the OC starts catching rounds from his own team

Not trying to start sh!t....just sayin' ;)

[ArtofPain]

It was charity concert so a lots of children, women and oldies were there.
How d'you think what can heppen with 60+yearsold man during 3-day stress?
Friend of mine who was inside (he's saper) tell me many people were dead for a rather long time in the time he going in.

[Abbyy]

assault on Amin's palace

You mean where the assault commander got smoked blue on blue?

-2 points when the OC starts catching rounds from his own team

Not trying to start sh!t....just sayin' ;)

If you're not trying to start **** it's better to keep silence. :)

Assault on Amin palace ended with final score about 200:2 and whole Kabul area with all garrisons was taken within 24 hours.
It is absolute success, isn't it?

As for blue on blue incidents - this plague was not avoided even by US forces until now. :) As for 1979 people didn't have experience and any special gear employed today.

[Abbyy]

As was said previously, the spetsnaz did their job FLAWlessly. However, there should have been a LOT more medics at the scene. SO many ppl died from choking on their own vomit (which is COMPLETELY preventable by any first aid-certified person)
Man I was there, if you want I may tell you more...

We want. Please find some time to give us good insight.

[UkrainianAmerican]

As was said previously, the spetsnaz did their job FLAWlessly. However, there should have been a LOT more medics at the scene. SO many ppl died from choking on their own vomit (which is COMPLETELY preventable by any first aid-certified person)
Man I was there, if you want I may tell you more...

We want. Please find some time to give us good insight.
Yup! woot

[Flagg]

If you're not trying to start **** it's better to keep silence.

Sorry, I'm noisy!


Assault on Amin palace ended with final score about 200:2

Not quite, not even close.....but I get your point


and whole Kabul area with all garrisons was taken within 24 hours.
It is absolute success, isn't it?

But it wasn't hostage rescue...it was hostage-gets-lead-in-the-head = forced entry raid


As for blue on blue incidents - this plague was not avoided even by US forces until now. As for 1979 people didn't have experience and any special gear employed today.

I still look forward to reading about things I've never yet heard about the highly successful Kabul/Amin raid...but that's what it was...a different category entirely from what this thread discusses..hostage rescue

[Abbyy]

Assault on Amin palace ended with final score about 200:2

Not quite, not even close.....but I get your point



:roll:
So give me your version.

[Herrmannek]

AFAIK Using aneasthetics was very risky. Even if this would happen in USA or other country with well orginised&coordinated rescue systems looses also would be serious. We must remember that there is no safe anesthetics(and probably never will be as some researches shows), anesthesy doctor needs to carefuly choose dose track heart beat, inhalation, pressure and can serve oxygen or other chemicals to keep patient's health in good shape and yet people die on operating tables. People in theatre couldn't have such care. Dose of gas had to be chosen to quickly and surely incapacitate young healthy big terrorists because every delay could mean detonation. Hospitals even in big cities ussualy havent 700 beds with equipment ussualy found in post & operating rooms. I think russian SF knew risk, calculated pros and cons and chosed lesser evil...

I tink this wan't best action because output counts & innocent died, but everything what could be done in that situation from SF side was done.

Additionaly I doubt such action could be performed in many places without ending as total diisaster.

-First you need big ready to work evrywhere in the country special forces unit, not small uncoordinated local SWAT teams.

-You must have someone brave enough to take risk of making such decission and not wait with it untill terrorist will blow themselfs takin hostages with them.

-You must have enough amount of gasses and prepared methods of delivering them

etc...

not many countrys in the woorld can meet such criterias.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Do you think that having 700 ambulances in the immidiate vicinity of the theatre might have given away preparations for the attack? Even an oral order to keep 700 ambulances ready would be impossible to keep secret. And in case you didn't know, terrorists had cell phones, TVs and informants in the crowd to provide them with information about everything that going on around the building.
Well said Russian Texan, I think the Russian security services did a great job considering the circumstances.

[mack pl]

In my opinion Russian SF done excellent job. Maybe they made some mistakes(not SF, but commanders of operation), but hey, Russia was the first country who have some ****ty situation like that. Any country before Russia haven't got so fukin big problem. IDFM2004 compare Dubrovka to Etebbe, but it was 2 fukin different situations(Entebbe-less terrorists, less hostages, less explosives etc.). So, big Respect for Russian SF(Alfa, Vityaz, Vympiel, SOBR). Maybe it wasn't ideal operation(too many casaulties), but it was first operation like that in fukin history.

Regards

[cqbrdy]

no bombs went off to kill the hostages
but the gas the good guys used, killd them anyway.
all bad guys died, some hostages killd.

compare that to the bombs going off
all for the greater good.

people should be fired and new tactics implemented.

[ArtofPain]

OK. My English is poor so exuse for my mistakes.
"In one rainy autmn evening I with my collegues desided not to go home ASAP and play a cards in office. About 10 PM we heared a lots of messages from our stationary radio and all our pagers and cell phones began ringing. We heared about hostages and the work began...."
In the area of Theatre Center were shuted MOST of cell phones and radios. Even our service cell phones can work as far as 1 km away.
I told you about people who came to watch Nord-Ost - a lot of childrens, oldies and women. :(
It was a pity that some mass-media in search of sensation made CTForces job a bit hard. It's look like in Lima.
My friend (I told about him - he is saper) was in the building in second wave of attakers he told me that even young solders made first-aid right. But many of hostages were dead before attakers came in. :(

[IDFM203]

IDFM2004 compare Dubrovka to Etebbe, but it was 2 fukin different situations(Entebbe-less terrorists, less hostages, less explosives etc.). First of all be clear, I didnt compare it, for I said the Entebbe one was better ;) also as I said before, I actually think the Russians did a good job here and I even brought a article to show how it was seen as such even in the Israeli hostage rescue community (as well as that article that I brought that the Russians trained in Israel and learnt some Israeli hostage rescue techniques ;) :D ).

However with that said and certainly not to take away from what happened there, understand clearly that there is a BIG, I repeat BIG difference in performing a hostage rescue in your own nation, then what Israel had to do in flying over hostile nations and then with utmost secrecy land and then storm the building at Entebbe all without anyone there knowing that any Israelis or planes were there in the first place.

I am sorry to say, but I do see Entebbe to be the number one hostage rescue of all time, but yes the one there in Russia does get my full respect where it pertains to the Russian forces that stormed the place.


Btw just note on Entebbe, you say less terrorists, well I am not sure that’s true, for besides the Arab (and German) terrorists there, we had to also deal with a contingent of the Ugandan military that were there and also racing against time for reinforcements of said army, so I am not sure you can say less terrorists.


Anyways that’s my opinion and I am sure others might disagree with me ;)

Shalom :D

[droopy]

no bombs went off to kill the hostages
but the gas the good guys used, killd them anyway.
all bad guys died, some hostages killd.

compare that to the bombs going off
all for the greater good.

people should be fired and new tactics implemented.
You are crazy... why should they fire the russian SOF and what tactis should be implemented.
Think about it there was never before that incident something at that magnitude (terro,hostages,bombs,very big building with lots of firning places etc.)

[mack pl]

IDFM2004 compare Dubrovka to Etebbe, but it was 2 fukin different situations(Entebbe-less terrorists, less hostages, less explosives etc.). First of all be clear, I didnt compare it, for I said the Entebbe one was better ;) also as I said before, I actually think the Russians did a good job here.

ok doki ;)

shalom alehem :)

[Colonel Flagg]

So give me your version.

I found this:

24 KIA, 44 killed in accidents, and 74 WIA

here:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2002/MOUTGrau.htm

[Tane Angle]

It was a tough nut to crack, that's for sure. It could have gone a lot better, but it could have gone a lot worse as well. Many experts didn't think as many hostages would have survived had there been a conventional assault. All in all, some serious mistakes were made regarding treatment and evacuation of the hostages, but the decision to use the gas would seem to be the correct one.

There is no #1 rescue operation of all time, though the 1980 rescue attempt in Iran would have been on a level that no other operation can compare to. Have a good one, and just some thoughgts...

[perdurabo]

SF operators made briliant job (maybe they had some little problems but i didn't heard about them) all others ****ed up no antidotes for neuro-gas no medical care no enough ambulance cars ...
It would be good for all CT teams to learn from russians (and it would be good for russians to learn from others too...) Somekind of joint CT trainings ...

[perdurabo]

There is no #1 rescue operation of all time, though the 1980 rescue attempt in Iran would have been on a level that no other operation can compare to. Have a good one, and just some thoughgts...
one word: "Entebbe" operation moust briliant and complicated operation ever made good job Israel.

[StarvingStudent47]

Did it ever occur to any of you that there might be a reason why there weren't enough or for that matter any ambulances on site?

Do you think that having 700 ambulances in the immidiate vicinity of the theatre might have given away preparations for the attack? Even an oral order to keep 700 ambulances ready would be impossible to keep secret. And in case you didn't know, terrorists had cell phones, TVs and informants in the crowd to provide them with information about everything that going on around the building.

Okay, I could see that. But what about the whole not-telling-the-doctors-what-you-used part? Russian patriotism or no, you've got to admit that part was one serious f--- up.

[Mongrel]

I'd like to know how this large number of really OBVIOUS suicide bombers managed to get anywhere near anywhere?

I mean I saw the same documentry on the Histroy channel, and they kind'a stood out?

I know I may be asking the impossible but, is there any kind of police presence on Russian streets? And esp' high target locations such as a theater?

M.

[mack pl]

@Mongrel-

well, Moscow is one of the bigest citys in the world. Try to defend all fukin "high target locations as a theaters". Its impossible,in Moscow they have many thousands of targets like that.

BTW in Moscow living hundreds thousands(maybe milions) of people from Caucasus(Chechens etc.), so Russian policeman's cannot watching l all of them, coz anyone of them could be fukin suicide bomber.

I have no idea, how many people are working in Militia(in Moscow), but Im sure it is the best protected city in Russia.

It could happen even in New York, or Paris etc. Terrorists aren't dumb fukheads, they know when and where to hit civilians targets.

Regards

"chwala specnazom, smiert terroristom"

[16 OBr SpN]

It was a tough nut to crack, that's for sure. It could have gone a lot better, but it could have gone a lot worse as well. Many experts didn't think as many hostages would have survived had there been a conventional assault. All in all, some serious mistakes were made regarding treatment and evacuation of the hostages, but the decision to use the gas would seem to be the correct one.

There is no #1 rescue operation of all time, though the 1980 rescue attempt in Iran would have been on a level that no other operation can compare to. Have a good one, and just some thoughgts...

The operation itself was done on a highest level of proficiency. Within 50 minutes after the crisis started, we already had a full picture of the situation. The decision to use gas was made right from the start.

But you are right about the evacuation and treatment. It was a serious fock up!

The other factor was the media, and some politicians who were trying to earn their "points" on the situation.

We had couple of scumbags from the police who were robbing the unconcious victims!!! :(
Two of those got caught. Guys from "A" wanted to shoot one of them and list him as a "victim of the enemy fire". That scumbag should be thanking God for the deputy commander of the storm group, who just kicked his ass unconcious, and let him go! Although I think the cop deserved to be shot. He was fired shortly after.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[UkrainianAmerican]

It was a tough nut to crack, that's for sure. It could have gone a lot better, but it could have gone a lot worse as well. Many experts didn't think as many hostages would have survived had there been a conventional assault. All in all, some serious mistakes were made regarding treatment and evacuation of the hostages, but the decision to use the gas would seem to be the correct one.

There is no #1 rescue operation of all time, though the 1980 rescue attempt in Iran would have been on a level that no other operation can compare to. Have a good one, and just some thoughgts...

The operation itself was done on a highest level of proficiency. Within 50 minutes after the crisis started, we already had a full picture of the situation. The decision to use gas was made right from the start.

But you are right about the evacuation and treatment. It was a serious fock up!

The other factor was the media, and some politicians who were trying to earn their "points" on the situation.

We had couple of scumbags from the police who were robbing the unconcious victims!!! :(
Two of those got caught. Guys from "A" wanted to shoot one of them and list him as a "victim of the enemy fire". That scumbag should be thanking God for the deputy commander of the storm group, who just kicked his ass unconcious, and let him go! Although I think the cop deserved to be shot. He was fired shortly after.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN
Wow, f*cking ****heads :fork: :fork: :fork:

[anonymous individual]

That cop fully deserved to be shot right on the spot.

I just want to comment on the lack of ambulances after situation was clear. I mean shouldn't the local hospitals send ambulances to the threatre's near distance right from the start. For that they could have stand-by, in case of the worst happened. As soon as those the public realized the terrorists were equiped with bombs, the authority should have done that. Ambulances would be placed in a safe enough distance from the bombs but close enough to do rescue fast. If that'd happened, then the media and those terrorists wouldn't be alerted, since it was done in the beginning.

[Herrmannek]

I don't think there is a city with 700 free ambulances with can stand in "stand by"

[ArtofPain]

I'd like to know how this large number of really OBVIOUS suicide bombers managed to get anywhere near anywhere?

I mean I saw the same documentry on the Histroy channel, and they kind'a stood out?

I know I may be asking the impossible but, is there any kind of police presence on Russian streets? And esp' high target locations such as a theater?

M.
There are lots police people in Moscow. But for city with about 15 mln of population and huge territory (45 x 37 km) yuo can't place policeman near each corner.

[Tane Angle]

16 OBr SpN, very much so, the actual entry was, to my knowledge, done extremely, extremely well. I can't hold the rescue force responsible for the mess ups, as they had no authority regarding the media and the ambulances, correct?

It's a shame about the media. Personally, I do not like having any cameras anywhere nearby ever, unless those cameras are under the direct control of the scene commander and are to be used for disinformation or other necessary tasks. As for politicians sticking their noses where they don't belong...don't even get me started on that.

And good poise to the guys from A for holding back. I probably would have wanted to write the guy off as an unfortunate victim too.

Good work, that's all that can really be said. Good work.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[GazB]

Not sure why it is so important for some to work out which was the best hostage rescue situation... does the winner get a prize.

Does it mean that the winner of that prize will never fail... ever?

Something as simple as Helicopter maintainence can ruin a mission that might not otherwise have worked. Or it might be that the whole plan was fundamentally flawed from the start... we can never be sure either way.

Sometimes outragous plans can work because they are so bold, and sometimes they can fail because they are too bold, or not bold enough.

If you want to play the game of the best rescue in history my money goes to Leningrad... a 900 day siege with millions of terrorists, millions of rescuers, and sure millions killed.

Skorzeny's rescue of Mussolini was pretty impressive too if you think about it.

[Robert_Mo]

What is everyone's opinion on this was it a success or failure? If you were the Russian government what would've you done.

I will get this thread locked if anyone starts any flame wars.

Tipcally unrespect for human life!
I remember that in the video it can be seen a alpha superman, after the operation, opening one of the bottles of the terrorists and drinking!!!! :roll:

Disastrous organisation. Israeli or Brittish SF could do much better, Germans too, but this operation was a massacre!
Of hostages!

[UoUo]

What is everyone's opinion on this was it a success or failure? If you were the Russian government what would've you done.

I will get this thread locked if anyone starts any flame wars.

Tipcally unrespect for human life!
I remember that in the video it can be seen a alpha superman, after the operation, opening omne of the bottles of the terrorists and drinking!!!! :roll:

Disastrous organisation. Israeli or Brittish SF could do much better, Germans too, but this operation was a massacre!
Of hostages!

Where are you from?

[anonymous individual]

What is everyone's opinion on this was it a success or failure? If you were the Russian government what would've you done.

I will get this thread locked if anyone starts any flame wars.

Tipcally unrespect for human life!
I remember that in the video it can be seen a alpha superman, after the operation, opening omne of the bottles of the terrorists and drinking!!!! :roll:

Disastrous organisation. Israeli or Brittish SF could do much better, Germans too, but this operation was a massacre!
Of hostages!

By no means, this operation was considered as a massacre when compared to what could have happened. If all bombs were set off, there would be more deaths. On top of that, other militaries would have used conventional attacks, meaning a direct assault. By doing so, it will inflict more deaths to the hostages and the attackers.

[RomanS]

See,

a prime example of a fukin troll.

ROBERT

you really wanna have lots of enemies here? If you do, you aint going to last here long.

[Robert_Mo]

See,

a prime example of a fukin troll.

ROBERT

you really wanna have lots of enemies here? If you do, you aint going to last here long.

Boy, I am only saying what I think!
This is a free forum, not the forum of Bolshevik party, nor Duma!
If you don't like my point of view you are free to do it!
But if you think that I am here to accept your oppinions only because you can be hurted in your fellings you make an error!
i repeat, the operation was a tipically russian military operation, no respect for human lives, and very unprofessional behaviour of operators!
I think you don't share the act of the operator that opened the bottle and drunk!
Or the one who got an terrorist, accompanied him to the gate thinking he was a hostage, and after listening his accent, beat him with kicks.
A real profesionist, would tie ALL THE PERSONS INSIDE THE BUILT (the Stocholm syndrome), and I understand russian love for the bottle, but drink in the middle of a hostage killing, sorry saving operation, is quite unprofessional!
For russian standarts too!
Or I have to presume that russian standarts of FSB are the NKVD one, kill more than you can?
Regards!

[RomanS]

See,

a prime example of a fukin troll.

ROBERT

you really wanna have lots of enemies here? If you do, you aint going to last here long.

Boy, I am only saying what I think!
This is a free forum, not the forum of Bolshevik party, nor Duma!
If you don't like my point of view you are free to do it!
But if you think that I am here to accept your oppinions only because you can be hurted in your fellings you make an error!
i repeat, the operation was a tipically russian military operation, no respect for human lives, and very unprofessional behaviour of operators!
I think you don't share the act of the operator that opened the bottle and drunk!
Or the one who got an terrorist, accompanied him to the gate thinking he was a hostage, and after listening his accent, beat him with kicks.
A real profesionist, would tie ALL THE PERSONS INSIDE THE BUILT (the Stocholm syndrome), and I understand russian love for the bottle, but drink in the middle of a hostage killing, sorry saving operation, is quite unprofessional!
For russian standarts too!
Or I have to presume that russian standarts of FSB are the NKVD one, kill more than you can?
Regards!

Listen fuk stick, you already fuked enough with the Israeli guys here. Now you're picking up a fight with us Russians?
Haven't you learned it yet? How long have you been coming here?

But its not the point ass-juice, the point is that the operation from the SF side was brilliant.
And you can bitch as much as you want. You don't have the balls to come to any of Russian Operators and tell them what you said above.

You are just a chicken **** troll, with a small *****, that nobody likes, so you have to come here and stir some ****.

Be gone litlle cockholster.

[b.scheller]

rofl

I couldn't have said it better permskii!

[UoUo]

Robert_Mo
please tell me where are you from please...why all the ass holed don't want to tell where are they from.

[Tane Angle]

The operators had nothing to do with the medical response, unless I am mistaken, so why rail against them? Also, regarding the allegations of an operator drinking a terrorists' vodka, why would Muslim terrorists bring in bottles of vodka? Let's think about that one for a moment, shall we?

Moreover, are you familiar with Stockholm Syndrome?

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[RomanS]

Robert_Mo
please tell me where are you from please...why all the ass holed don't want to tell where are they from.

indication of tiny little marbles and a small little *****.

They can only bash on other places, without revealing their home. More safe this way for them. CHICKEN ****

[b.scheller]

Most likely, this Robert character has more then one alias on this forum.

[RomanS]

The operators had nothing to do with the medical response, unless I am mistaken, so why rail against them? Also, regarding the allegations of an operator drinking a terrorists' vodka, why would Muslim terrorists bring in bottles of vodka? Let's think about that one for a moment, shall we?

Moreover, are you familiar with Stockholm Syndrome?

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

DO you know how many muslim fighters in CHechnya go by muslim rules?

LOOL

[RomanS]

hes mustamato

[Tane Angle]

Hey, come on, I'm trying defend the operators here. p-)

[RomanS]

Hey, come on, I'm trying defend the operators here. p-)

Actually, after an operation like that I would be drinking too.

I mean those guys had to say good bye to their families, and sign the will papers to pass all their belongings to the family.

They were going in without gas masks, and most of all into the hall full of explosives. And after all the terrorists were killed, I would ****in have a huge DRINK myself. Because I'm alive, and my team as well.

[Sayeret]

Thanks to Robert_Mo this topic is going to be locked.

[anonymous individual]

Ok, this thread is destined to be locked. Oh well, at least there was a meaningful discussion going on.

[StukaJr]

My opinion:

"Nord Ost" hostage rescue was a success and my hat goes off to the brave operators, unfortunate loss of life of the innoscent hostages and sheer kahoonees behind the plan and implemintation... One must remember, that the true failure of this CT operation - would be solving it through negotiations and giving the terrorists a sure way to apply preassure in future acts of terror by the same template... The message behind "Nord Ost" is that of clear stand on terrorism and that there will always be a leathal response no matter how intricate and impossible the situation may be devised.

The CT operation was brilliantly planned and executed - with all the unforseen snafu's and logistical support aside - going up against not only most intricate terrorist plot to date but also against one of the most leathal terrorist group...

Never again

[GazB]

A real profesionist, would tie ALL THE PERSONS INSIDE THE BUILT (the Stocholm syndrome),

And when these professionals collapse inside the building after interrogating the hostages to find sleeper Terrs from the gas that still fills the place who will turn out the lights?

What happens if one of the guys defusing the bombs makes a mistake during this interrogation?

Or how about if some of the explosives are radio command detonated and there is a guy across the street with a remote. or perhaps one of the bombs has a timer slowly running down?