Question:M16 Buttstock

[Piers brendon]

I was just wondering what's the point of manufacturing M16's with a fixed stock, if all the soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan use adjustable buttstock's. You could say that the reserves/national guard don't need adjustable buttstock's but if they ever served in combat they would use one. Wouldn't it be cheaper just to manufacture them with adjustable buttstock's?

[asch]

M16 - fixed, M4 - collapsible.

p.s. you will get raped here for yer post.

[-[Crosshair]-]

Only us canadians use telescoping stocks on our C7A2s (20" uppers).

[Bro Jangles]

-;3987777']Only us canadians use telescoping stocks on our C7A2s (20" uppers).
hey i gotz a collapsible on my 20in, but im not in the army. i like it.

[Lamer]

You cant fit the big battery in the crane stock rofl

seriusly- I think it is a price issue, or maybe structural strenght

[LineDoggie]

I was just wondering what's the point of manufacturing M16's with a fixed stock, if all the soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan use adjustable buttstock's. You could say that the reserves/national guard don't need adjustable buttstock's but if they ever served in combat they would use one. Wouldn't it be cheaper just to manufacture them with adjustable buttstock's?

1- Some did have Telescoping stock on their M16A2's, A4's in Iraq while I was there(2004-2005). As far as where they got them from I dont know, but I did see such weapons numbering in the Hundreds from a range of units to include 1CAV,3ID, 256BCT, 299BCT, 278RCT.

2- The Guard gets M4's, I've had mine since 2004. In fact my former unit is re-equipping with newer ones now. Cant answer for the Army Reserve though.

3- Officially, the Army is against the Practice of fitting these to Long guns(just like now they are officially against using Militec on Weapons, nevermind they issued it with a NSN ), but the Canadians have been using almost the exact same versions with this fitting for some time woth no issues. If anything, the Army doesnt want to retrofit the 400,000+ rifles in issue

[tercio67]

-;3987777']Only us canadians use telescoping stocks on our C7A2s (20" uppers).

In the Netherlands we are currently refurbishing 25000 C7A1's with telescoping stocks (and a few other changes).

[dave81]

if all the soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan use adjustable buttstock's. No, they all don't.
Wouldn't it be cheaper just to manufacture them with adjustable buttstock's?No. More moving pieces = more parts to manufacture = more steps to assemble = more money. A fixed buttstock is just one solid piece of plastic you screw onto the weapon. An adjustable has levers, springs, screws, the stock itself, etc.

[-[Crosshair]-]

In the Netherlands we are currently refurbishing 25000 C7A1's with telescoping stocks (and a few other changes).

Yay!

Tell your armourers to order a lot of stocks, I can't tell you how many of them crack... That's what we get for getting old 4-position CAR-15 stocks. :|

Edit: Oh yeah, they also decided to use the same stocks on our new C9A2s.

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8201/0311090836.jpghttp://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5287/0311090836a.jpg

It also folds to the left, they are fragile as angels, we don't have any spare parts, and they are shipping to Afghanistan in like a week.

Fail.

[commanding]

I think the US military is constantly in a state of upgrading the rifleman's arms...therefore, there will be a variety of long arms in use at any one time. Generally from what i have seen, the training companies, the folks in the rear like supply, etc, have the older weapons, and the guys on the front line get the newest, bestest, weapons.

[BrianT]

I guarantee it's about regulations. There's no designated weapon with a collapsible buttstock, and 20" barrel, though I'm sure some guys have sua sponte that stuff. If it ever had to meet some sort of standard, it'd have to have the fixed stock placed back on it.

[Roy Batty]

-;3988236']Yay!

Tell your armourers to order a lot of stocks, I can't tell you how many of them crack... That's what we get for getting old 4-position CAR-15 stocks. :|

Edit: Oh yeah, they also decided to use the same stocks on our new C9A2s.

It also folds to the left, they are fragile as angels, we don't have any spare parts, and they are shipping to Afghanistan in like a week.

Fail.


They tried to take away this one for one of those things....

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn243/CanadianSig/PICT0006.jpg

...we said no thanks. :D

[trunk_munkey28]

They tried to take away this one for one of those things....

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn243/CanadianSig/PICT0006.jpg

...we said no thanks. :D

Can I drink your bathwater some day? lol.

Niiice LMG, man, wish I had one last time around.

[HollywoodMarine]

I was just wondering what's the point of manufacturing M16's with a fixed stock, if all the soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan use adjustable buttstock's. You could say that the reserves/national guard don't need adjustable buttstock's but if they ever served in combat they would use one. Wouldn't it be cheaper just to manufacture them with adjustable buttstock's?
Coming from a 15 year old kid, what would you know what the reserves and Guard need? I don't speak for my Army bro's, but as a Marine, I love my M-16A4 with fixed stock, and ACOG sight. Do us a favor kid... go play hide-and-seek on the highway.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z128/bhmason_album/Marines.jpg

[Britboy]

Nice phot there.

I remember reading something that contrasted the hit rates and kill probability of the USMC vs the USA. Apparently the USA favours a shorter carbine outfitted with a red dot sight, whereas the USMC went with a longer rifle fitted with the ACOG.

The article may have been anecdotal but apparently the USMC riflemen did bloody well with this set up in Fallujah.

[Red-Phos]

Yeah i heard about that the amount of hits to the head etc due to the M16A4 with ACOG.

[HollywoodMarine]

Yeah i heard about that the amount of hits to the head etc due to the M16A4 with ACOG.
The probability of someone standing right back up from a head shot from a 5.56mm round is much less then if they got hit on the upper torso. Plus another Gunny who was there told me that Hajees pop their heads out far too high and out, which made for a perfect target.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/bang4urbuc/marines.jpg

[Britboy]

I'd have thought after getting shot in either of those places the last thing you're going to be doing is going straight into your dash-down-crawl drill!

I take it you still train to go for the centre of body mass, but then again if its only the head that is exposed then those sorts of wounds are going to be disproportionately high.

The real story is the fact that riflemen could (from what I've heard) expect to be able to consistently put rounds into small targets that would be using hard cover, under combat conditions, again and again. From what I've heard, shooting standards fall rapidly under combat conditions, when you are going to be breathing heavily, taking fire and generally in a drama. I suppose ACOG and a rifle rather than a carbine goes some way to ameliorating that usual drop - combined with the training of course.

How do you feel the A4 and ACOG compare for CQB/MOUT and operating out of vehicles, vs a carbine? Just interested, as that would seem to be the situ the USAs choice in weapons would favour.

Regards
BB

[HollywoodMarine]

I take it you still train to go for the centre of body mass, but then again if its only the head that is exposed then those sorts of wounds are going to be disproportionately high.
We do train to aim, shoot (2) to the center mass, (1) to the head, scan left-to-right within a certain time period.


How do you feel the A4 and ACOG compare for CQB/MOUT and operating out of vehicles, vs a carbine? Just interested, as that would seem to be the situ the USAs choice in weapons would favour.
When our armory aquired M4's, my squad leaders and I did a little test and eval. The M4 was better suited for close/confined spaces, and accesability. But in the long run, we can do the same with our A4's with a few adjustments by overcoming and adapting with what we have.

[-[Crosshair]-]

They tried to take away this one for one of those things....

*pix*

...we said no thanks. :D

For a cracked stock? Damn, just take any C7A2 or C8 stock.

D:

Edit: I'm still trying to figure out what that LMG is. Doesn't look like a CF C9A2, it's black instead of green, it has the two front rails but not the one on the left side of the handguard for the vertical grip, it doesn't have a CF short barrel (has closed front sight aperture instead of open) with the adjustable gas regulator, but it has the new folding and telescoping stock...

[Dan2004]

Two letters: D & C p-)

[Pappy]

20" barrel on the M16A4 has better terminal ballistics over the 14.5" M4. But its the collapsible buttstock that makes the M4 worthwhile. When wearing body armor and a rack, it's very awkward to properly square off with the M16. The M16's buttstock is designed for use without body armor and for a traditional style shooting stance.

Personally, I really wish they would issue a modification work order on the M16 to install collapsible buttstocks on it. It's a rather simple process, and armament shops can order all the parts needed very easily. I mean, hell, I was able to get collapsible buttstocks for all the M249s in my company so I don't know why the Army has a problem with them on M16s. I tried to order the parts to convert all of our SDM M16s at the request of our designated marksmen, but got my ass chewed out for it because it wasn't my level of work. Such stupidity.

[Pappy]

Nice phot there.

I remember reading something that contrasted the hit rates and kill probability of the USMC vs the USA. Apparently the USA favours a shorter carbine outfitted with a red dot sight, whereas the USMC went with a longer rifle fitted with the ACOG.

The article may have been anecdotal but apparently the USMC riflemen did bloody well with this set up in Fallujah.

The Army uses a boat load of ACOGs in addition to the M68.

[Dan2004]

The Army uses a boat load of ACOGs in addition to the M68.

I used to see a sh*tton of Trijicon Reflexes up at CPTS around 4 years ago.

[Red-Phos]

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/bang4urbuc/marines.jpg


Very Disciplined :|

[Burntrubber87]

Very Disciplined :|
Likewise, coming into a thread looking to start an arguement.:roll:

[California Joe]

Very Disciplined :|

It's a joke. In fact, the Marines pride themselves on their skill as riflemen.

[Britboy]

I have heard that the Marine Corps regards its main weapon system to be the man and his rifle, rather than tanks, arty, MLRS, Apache etc and other technology.

Sounds like a damned fine ethos.

There is something similar here, whereby infanteers tell all the other corps that they are all just there to support the inf whilst they get amongst it... Makes sense to me, look at Afg 2001, had all the UAVs, PGMs, comms, aircraft, TLAM in the world, but it still took boots on the ground to get in there, mix it up, and take and hold ground.

Another saying the British Army has is that 'we equip the man' whereas the other services 'man equipment'. Obviously spirited blokes are more important than the latest gucci armament or kit.

[Roy Batty]

-;3990255']For a cracked stock? Damn, just take any C7A2 or C8 stock.

D:

Edit: I'm still trying to figure out what that LMG is. Doesn't look like a CF C9A2, it's black instead of green, it has the two front rails but not the one on the left side of the handguard for the vertical grip, it doesn't have a CF short barrel (has closed front sight aperture instead of open) with the adjustable gas regulator, but it has the new folding and telescoping stock...


I meant they wanted us to turn in our C9 for an A2 (they also wanted our C8s for C8A2s...we again said no)

It's a "slightly" mod'ed C9. Yankee short barrel, A2 butt, Eotech......a few other tricks ;)

[LoboCanada]

Whats wrong with the C8A2 Sig?

[Hollis]

Very Disciplined :|


Part II, to add to what CJ said, We had a expression, "To kill 'em dead". A dieing enemy is just as deadly as a unwounded one, may even be more so. Assuming he is dead, well you know what assume means.

Ammo is cheap in this case. I value my life and the lives of bros more.

[Roy Batty]

Whats wrong with the C8A2 Sig?

Nothing relly wrong with it ,to be honest we could'nt see much better new about it besides a green paintjob on the furniture (yes it's spray painted...cheap bast*rds), but once you have a weapon sighted in and set up the way you wanted (and it's the rifle you've been using for 4 years) your not likely wanting to switch up while already in theater.

[SMGLee]

The problem with M16 utilizing a M4 stock comes down to weapon reliability. Imagine a rifle with a set amount of gas blow back and a properly weight buffe/action spring to the deal with. Now take a buffer/action spring design for something shorter and with a different recoil impluse. You are just asking for trouble in the long run. This also why you sen some US force with the mod, but no longer permitted.

The next ten US rifle would likely be an AR18 style upper fit to an existi g lower. With full, collapise, and collapise/folder depends on mission requirement.

Type this reply on my iphone

[Bro Jangles]

The problem with M16 utilizing a M4 stock comes down to weapon reliability. Imagine a rifle with a set amount of gas blow back and a properly weight buffe/action spring to the deal with. Now take a buffer/action spring design for something shorter and with a different recoil impluse. You are just asking for trouble in the long run. This also why you sen some US force with the mod, but no longer permitted.

crap, i assume this applies to civilian ar15s too, right?

[-[Crosshair]-]

Why wouldn't it?

[HollywoodMarine]

Very Disciplined :|

Likewise, coming into a thread looking to start an arguement.:roll:
It's pretty obvious you two missed the humor train. <Pffft>... civilians. :roll:

[Soldat_Américain]

FYI the Marine Corps is looking into a collapsible butt stock specifically for the M16A4 Marine Corps Service Rifle, here is the link https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=f374334bf80c4e8bc4d78151a42dbb0c&tab=core&_cview=0&cck=1&au=&ck=
and from what I understand it's a butt stock that would be specifically designed for the A4 that could reach a maximum of 11inches to meet the current solid butt stock, and I never want an M4 by the way.

[Roy Batty]

FYI the Marine Corps is looking into a collapsible butt stock specifically for the M16A4 Marine Corps Service Rifle, here is the link https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=f374334bf80c4e8bc4d78151a42dbb0c&tab=core&_cview=0&cck=1&au=&ck=
and from what I understand it's a butt stock that would be specifically designed for the A4 that could reach a maximum of 11inches to meet the current solid butt stock, and I never want an M4 by the way.

Iteresting. The C7A2 is the same sort of system (full barrel/collapsible stock). What do you have against the M4? I love my C8.

[Soldat_Américain]

Iteresting. The C7A2 is the same sort of system (full barrel/collapsible stock). What do you have against the M4? I love my C8.

Doesn't have as much range because of having 5 and half inch shorter of a barrel, it's a good weapon, don't get me wrong, but I like knowing I can hit things further away, and if I needed something small I'd rather hav an MP 5 or a bullpup. I'm in currently on an exchange and at Saint-Cyr we have the FAMAS F1, and I'm already a crack shot, and they have the F4 in the regiments and sometime next year the FELIN will start being used in the infrantry regiments. F is like M btw.

[Roy Batty]

I tried the Famas in Afghanistan. I really was not impressed but I've never been a bull-pup fan. a 16" barrel is my prefered length. I find 20" cumbersome and 14 is fairly short so.......

[Soldat_Américain]

I tried the Famas in Afghanistan. I really was not impressed but I've never been a bull-pup fan. a 16" barrel is my prefered length. I find 20" cumbersome and 14 is fairly short so.......

FAMAS has some design issues I think, you can't lock the bolt back, but I like it and you can install a rail on it to add optics and such. I like having the extra range with the 20" barrel.

[tazzmann]

It's pretty obvious you two missed the humor train. <Pffft>... civilians. :roll:

Hey don't knock civilians. Many of us have served, and we are still your brother in arms. We just do it from a differnt angle. Check out the profile. You'll get my meaning.

[HollywoodMarine]

Hey don't knock civilians. Many of us have served, and we are still your brother in arms. We just do it from a differnt angle. Check out the profile. You'll get my meaning.
Nah... I'm not knocking my prior service brothers. It is you guys who have "Been There, Done That" understand weird, and twisted humor we share. As for the two knuckleheads in question... they have no clue where we've been.

[tazzmann]

Nah... I'm not knocking my prior service brothers. It is you guys who have "Been There, Done That" understand weird, and twisted humor we share. As for the two knuckleheads in question... they have no clue where we've been.

I got that brother. Just so you know, I am very much aware that the quality of the product for which I am responsible could mean the difference of life or death for my brothers and sisters. I take what I do very seriously. I never forget those who count on me to do the job right.