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Lazy Lob
03-14-2009, 09:37 AM
It's getting worse by the day.


All travel plans to be tracked by Government

The travel plans and personal details of every holidaymaker, business traveller and day-tripper who leaves Britain are to be tracked by the Government, the Daily Telegraph can disclose.


By David Millward, Transport Editor

Last Updated: 8:08AM GMT 14 Mar 2009

Airport terminal: All travel plans to be tracked by Government

Travel operators will supply information on people exiting the UK Photo: BLOOMBERG NEWS

Anyone departing the UK by land, sea or air will have their trip recorded and stored on a database for a decade.

Passengers leaving every international sea port, station or airport will have to supply detailed personal information as well as their travel plans. So-called "booze crusiers" who cross the Channel for a couple of hours to stock up on wine, beer and cigarettes will be subject to the rules.

In addition, weekend sailors and sea fishermen will be caught by the system if they plan to travel to another country - or face the possibility of criminal prosecution.

The owners of light aircraft will also be brought under the system, known as e-borders, which will eventually track 250 million journeys annually.

Even swimmers attempting to cross the Channel and their support teams will be subject to the rules which will require the provision of travellers' personal information such as passport and credit card details, home and email addresses and exact travel plans.

The full extent of the impact of the government's "e-borders" scheme emerged amid warnings that passengers face increased congestion as air, rail and ferry companies introduce some of the changes over the Easter holidays.

The new checks are being introduced piecemeal by the UK Border Agency. By the end of the year 60 per cent of journeys made out of Britain will be affected with 95 per cent of people leaving the country being subject to the plans by the end 2010.

Yachtsmen, leisure boaters, trawlermen and private pilots will be given until 2014 to comply with the programme.

They will be expected to use the internet to send their details each time they leave the country and would face a fine of up to £5,000 should they fail to do so.

Similar penalties will be enforced on airlines, train and ship operators if they fail to provide details of every passenger to the UK Border Agency.

In most cases the information will be expected to be provided 24 hours ahead of travel and will then be stored on a Government database for around ten years.

The changes are being brought in as the Government tries to tighten border controls and increase protection against the threat of international terrorism.

Currently passports are not checked as a matter of routine when people leave the country.

Exit controls for departure to other countries within the European Union were scrapped by the last Conservative Government. The rest were scrapped by Jack Straw, when he became Home Secretary, after Labour won the election in 1997.

However, passport inspections at ports have gradually been reintroduced as the Government looks to prevent anyone on a Government watchlist fleeing the country.

Gwyn Prosser, Labour MP for Dover and a member of the all-party Home Affairs Select Committee, said: "I think e-borders are absolutely necessary," he said. "Governments of all complexions have always been criticised for not knowing who is in the country. This is a very sophisticated way of counting people in and out."

Britain is not the only country to require such information from travel operators. The USA also demands the same information be supplied from passengers wishing to visit America.

But the scale of the scheme has alarmed civil liberties campaigners.

"Your travel data is much more sensitive than you might think," Phil Booth of the privacy group, NO2ID said.

"Given that for obvious reasons we're encouraged not to put our home address on our luggage labels, and especially given the Government's appalling record on looking after our data, it just doesn't seem sensible for it to pass details like this and sensitive financial information around."

"It is a sad refection of the times that the dream of freedom of movement across Europe has had to take second place to concerns about national security," said Edmund King, the AA's president.

"Travellers will need to ensure that their passports are up to date and that details are input accurately if they don't want to end up in a dark room being grilled by border officials."

Ferry firms and Eurostar - who, unlike airlines, do not gather such detailed passenger information - have also raised concerns about the impact on passengers and warned the plans may not even be legal under EU law.

The changes would mean that Eurostar, Eurotunnel and ferry companies will now have to demand passport details from passengers at the time of booking, along with the credit card information and email address which they would have taken at the time of the reservation.

"We are also concerned that the implementation of e-borders could prove expensive and time consuming. For passengers this could mean longer check-in times," a Eurostar spokesman said.

"This will lead to unwelcome queues of vehicles at ferry ports and risks adding unnecessary complications to what always have been and ought to be a simple and straightforward journey," said a spokesman for the Chamber of Shipping.

In particular the Chamber is worried by proposals to include the Republic of Ireland in the e-borders scheme.

"E-borders is a system to carry passport data and at the moment passengers don't need one to cross the Irish Sea."

The plans have also alarmed the Royal Yachting Association. "From a recreational leisure boating point of view, filling in paper work detailing your exact travel plans every time you cross a border is not desirable.," a spokesman said.

"Often the attraction of boat cruising is the freedom it brings – these plans appear to challenge this"

The scheme was condemned by Chris Grayling, the Tories' home affairs spokesman.

"Of course we need to keep a proper record of people as they come in and leave the country.

"My worry is that the Government is creating something which will be unwieldy, impossible to manage and expensive to operate.

"I think this system has to be much simpler."

A UK Border Agency spokesman defended the e-borders scheme. "It allows us to secure the UK's Borders by screening people as they travel in and out of the UK.

"The e-Borders scheme has already screened over 82m passengers travelling to Britain, leading to more than 2,900 arrests, for crimes including murder, drug dealing and *** offences. e-borders helps the police catch criminals attempt to escape justice."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4987415/All-travel-plans-to-be-tracked-by-Government.html

Sufficient
03-14-2009, 09:41 AM
Passengers leaving every international sea port, station or airport will have to supply detailed personal information as well as their travel plans. So-called "booze crusiers" who cross the Channel for a couple of hours to stock up on wine, beer and cigarettes will be subject to the rules.

So how does this work with the free movement within EU? This must be something special for UK, being an island after all. I mean, if you want to buy a ticket with cash without showing your ID you won't be able to even leave the island?

Down on continental Europe this would never work, seeing as people cross the borders all the time. I live in Sweden on the other side of the bridge that takes me to Denmark's capital Copenhagen in ten minutes. A lot of people travel all the time back and forth (sometimes just to buy booze since taxes are lower in Denmark and even lower in Germany :)). Can't see how its even possible to save information about all the passengers in that case since the ticket over the bridge/ferries can be bought with cash.


A UK Border Agency spokesman defended the e-borders scheme. "It allows us to secure the UK's Borders by screening people as they travel in and out of the UK.

"The e-Borders scheme has already screened over 82m passengers travelling to Britain, leading to more than 2,900 arrests, for crimes including murder, drug dealing and *** offences. e-borders helps the police catch criminals attempt to escape justice."

I guess its a good thing with the arrests, but that's a lot of people being screened...

Arfah
03-14-2009, 09:43 AM
Still ineffective against those who are smuggling themselves in/out as those the government are seeking will avoid all official customs posts !

This will make the greater good even more paranoid !

Lazy Lob
03-14-2009, 09:45 AM
This is just another screwed up idea from Broon to bugger the majority of the law abiding public about. Control, control, control.

szr
03-14-2009, 09:47 AM
Even swimmers attempting to cross the Channel and their support teams will be subject to the rules which will require the provision of travellers' personal information such as passport and credit card details, home and email addresses and exact travel plans.Fortunately Britain is a world leader in information security. The information will be stored on thousands of tiny flash drives which government employees will be encouraged to take home each night for safe keeping.

fish&chips
03-14-2009, 10:59 AM
Big Brother approves this measure.

[/sarcasm]

Arfah
03-14-2009, 11:08 AM
Fortunately Britain is a world leader in information security. The information will be stored on thousands of tiny flash drives which government employees will be encouraged to take home each night for safe keeping.

We should just adapt a "Logan's run" policy whereby those deemed too old are encouraged to 'renew.' Then the senile & mentally infirm wouldn't be around to be trusted.

On the down side, I wouldn't be around anymore !

As for our border security, we're Europeans now :-(

Sufficient
03-14-2009, 11:12 AM
As for our border security, we're Europeans now :-(

Yet no other European country have anything similar. People travelled to and from UK long before you guys joined the club you know. If you want to blame someone, blame your own government.

Invisigoth
03-14-2009, 02:29 PM
That's f***** creepy.

Tokamak
03-14-2009, 02:40 PM
Fortunately Britain is a world leader in information security. The information will be stored on thousands of tiny flash drives which government employees will be encouraged to take home each night for safe keeping.

Exactly! :roll:

AlfredoTP
03-14-2009, 03:07 PM
Exactly! :roll:

x2

And a couple of days later, the news: flash drive found in a computer store, containing confidential information bla bla bla...





:cantbeli:

FULL METAL JACKET
03-14-2009, 03:30 PM
x2

And a couple of days later, the news: flash drive found in a computer store, containing confidential information bla bla bla...





:cantbeli:

It's happened before hasn't it? Didn't some guy lose some confidential government documents on the London Tube? I think a citizen found it and turned it over to the BBC. I can imagine a few more of these accidents happening.

Sufficient
03-14-2009, 03:34 PM
It's happened before hasn't it? Didn't some guy lose some confidential government documents on the London Tube? I think a citizen found it and turned it over to the BBC. I can imagine a few more of these accidents happening.

As long as its just a standard USB stick without any description on it, and encrypted with something as Truecrypt with a Twofish (256-bit key) algorithm it should be no biggie even if its lost. It would take months even for the police to crack the password if its a good one and ordinary Joe finding the USB stick on the street would not even understand the value of it. In the London Tube case it seems it was not encrypted however, and that borders to criminal negligence.

Walter Sobchak
03-14-2009, 03:48 PM
Even swimmers attempting to cross the Channel and their support teams will be subject to the rules which will require the provision of travellers' personal information such as passport and credit card details, home and email addresses and exact travel plans.

So, if you drown or turn back due to currents will you be fined for unauthorized itinerary changes?

It's too bad Monty Python isn't still together, their wonderful ability to lampoon bureaucracy would make the Modern British Nanny State look like.... well, eggs, baked beans, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, eggs, baked beans, eggs and spam.

Funny, when I thought of the British Nanny State, I always imagined Mary Poppins with a spoonful of sugar, but she's starting to look a little like the Catherine de Medici or maybe Bonnie Parker!

gazell
03-14-2009, 05:00 PM
Who wants to travel already? These empty all pockets, take your shoes off, show ****s and all this smelly business in a public crowd and go for a day hanging out at the airport for the fun before flight time, all that just for the silly thing going off even if you walk across naked... common, needs talent to make it worse.

BTW, the Hungarian President and co got the check throughout and hardly got let into Romania, so there is still something to aspire to.p-)

Mr Gently Benevolent
03-14-2009, 05:25 PM
The scheme was condemned by Chris Grayling, the Tories' home affairs spokesman.

"Of course we need to keep a proper record of people as they come in and leave the country.

"My worry is that the Government is creating something which will be unwieldy, impossible to manage and expensive to operate.

"I think this system has to be much simpler."And the above statement would indicate that the Tories would maintain the system or introduce one like it if they came to power. Its about time we had proper reporting for seafarers, the RNLI developed confidential position reporting system (CPRS) looks like a sensible solution for small vessels.

Connaught Ranger
03-14-2009, 05:45 PM
Even at the moment you cant get on a plane in Europe without showing some form of identity.

You cant go via the channel tunnel either way without showing some form of id.

And for years people traveling from Ireland to the U.K. were checked at Holyhead, Wales.

I even remember in the 80's & 90's on return journeys from the UK to Ireland being handed a pink card at Holyhead as a bus passenger to fill in, which asked where I had been on my visit in the U.K. and which I refused to fill in on the grounds that having been born in the U.K. I was not an "Alien" and as I was a member of the Irish Defence Forces they could have my name and rank, I am sure it pissed the busy bodies off, but was then allowed to proceed on to Dublin. (funny they NEVER asked us on the way IN to give details:roll:).

On my trip to Ireland with my Romanian wife in August 08, traveling from London to Ireland, all Eurolines bus passengers were made get off the bus, and carry all their luggage through the Customs Hall, and all asked why are we going to Ireland, and then back on the bus without one suitcase being opened:roll:

Connaught Ranger.

ARGAR FORKBEARD
03-15-2009, 03:52 AM
Even at the moment you cant get on a plane in Europe without showing some form of identity.

You cant go via the channel tunnel either way without showing some form of id.

And for years people traveling from Ireland to the U.K. were checked at Holyhead, Wales.

I even remember in the 80's & 90's on return journeys from the UK to Ireland being handed a pink card at Holyhead as a bus passenger to fill in, which asked where I had been on my visit in the U.K. and which I refused to fill in on the grounds that having been born in the U.K. I was not an "Alien" and as I was a member of the Irish Defence Forces they could have my name and rank, I am sure it pissed the busy bodies off, but was then allowed to proceed on to Dublin. (funny they NEVER asked us on the way IN to give details:roll:).

On my trip to Ireland with my Romanian wife in August 08, traveling from London to Ireland, all Eurolines bus passengers were made get off the bus, and carry all their luggage through the Customs Hall, and all asked why are we going to Ireland, and then back on the bus without one suitcase being opened:roll:

Connaught Ranger.

is this a regular thing?
i mean i cant understand to a point why they did this during the troubles! but still nowadays?????

Connaught Ranger
03-15-2009, 05:20 AM
is this a regular thing?
i mean i cant understand to a point why they did this during the troubles! but still nowadays?????

While the IRA terrorist situation calmed in the past 10 years, there is still a possibility of "international" terrorist using Ireland as a base to get into the U.K.

And the other side of the coin is the Drug Smuggling situation.

Connaught Ranger.

Straker
03-15-2009, 06:49 AM
So how does this work with the free movement within EU? This must be something special for UK, being an island after all. I mean, if you want to buy a ticket with cash without showing your ID you won't be able to even leave the island?

Down on continental Europe this would never work, seeing as people cross the borders all the time. I live in Sweden on the other side of the bridge that takes me to Denmark's capital Copenhagen in ten minutes. A lot of people travel all the time back and forth (sometimes just to buy booze since taxes are lower in Denmark and even lower in Germany :)). Can't see how its even possible to save information about all the passengers in that case since the ticket over the bridge/ferries can be bought with cash.



I guess its a good thing with the arrests, but that's a lot of people being screened...

The UK never signed up fully to the Schengen agreement that governs free travel between all EU states and Switzerland.

It didn't require passports as a matter of national policy since 1997 but as far as I know we didn't actually change the law.