MSBS 5,56 - new Polish assault rifle prototype [Archive] - Page 2

Catch22

12-03-2010, 09:15 PM

REMOV

12-08-2010, 10:31 AM

That's a little strange concept. What if you wanted to mount the GL on different rifle with underbarrel p-rail..?Then the different mounting base will be made. Just like that. It is not surprising in the world of firearms, the different mounting base was developed for the GPBO-40 too. You know, real engineers do their job. And if you desperately looking for some anti-Polish argument like "taking an example from foreign solutions", take a look at the FN GL1 grenade launcher designed for FN F2000 assault rifle and the redesigned version FN FN40GL for SCAR ;)

tony6

12-08-2010, 12:19 PM

I have discussed that versatility issue with designer - if the thing works ok, it shouldn't be a problem to add an p-rail interface to the proven launcher. But the aim at the moment was to keep it slim, light and close to the barrel.
Good for them. My point is that (from what I could tell looking at released CAD pictures) right now it looks like this version is dedicated only to MSBS rifle. If they want to design a kind of adapter for underbarrel p-rail the whole thing will be mounted pretty far from the barrel. And if the idea is to design a different body for underbarrel p-rails then they will end up with 2 completely different production version of the same GL. I would say that complicates the whole thing a little bit.
Having GL close to the barrrel is advantage of this concept but on the other hand you cannot mount MSBS GL on any other rifle.

kraftwerk

12-12-2010, 08:18 PM

(...) Having GL close to the barrrel is advantage of this concept but on the other hand you cannot mount MSBS GL on any other rifle.

Yes. In the end it depends on customer requirements. FN is doing F2000 for Dutch Army spec (uses rifle specific GLA), and SCAR for USMC spec (SCAR accepts any P-rail compatible GLA).
MSBS, as I understand, is in the moment R&D project. What are the chances, that when (if?) Polish Army will decide to buy new rifle, requirements will be favourable for MSBS?
Hopefully yes (if CZ can beat FN for Czech Army...;))

tony6

01-08-2011, 03:40 AM

~~~~:
I got a question related to the design: how do they want to manufacture pistol grip and trigger guard group? Did they specify that already or not yet? I'm asking because from released preliminary CAD pictures it looks like the pistol grip, trigger guard and lower receiver are one element.

REMOV

01-08-2011, 07:12 AM

The trigger group (or lower receiver call it what you will) in the present design will be one-piece element.

~~~~

01-08-2011, 07:14 AM

yes. they're one solid element.

KoTeMoRe

01-08-2011, 07:18 AM

Thanks for the inside details people. Looking forward to this one.

tony6

01-09-2011, 03:42 AM

I was afraid you would say that. Well, that's pretty hmmm... unusual way to do it since it's going to be a billet aluminium part. I would think it over very carefully if I were at their place.

kraftwerk

01-09-2011, 04:52 AM

I was afraid you would say that. Well, that's pretty hmmm... unusual way to do it since it's going to be a billet aluminium part. I would think it over very carefully if I were at their place.

Who said that lower receiver is going to be Al? I thought all the time it will be a nylon mold, eventually with inserts. Enough strength and big weight and cost advantage.

~~~~

01-09-2011, 08:27 AM

the lower receiver is to be made from plastic (as well as the butt stock) not from aluminium.

tony6

01-11-2011, 02:23 PM

OK, that's clears the issue. For a moment I thought that they want to make lower receiver from Aluminium as well.

kraftwerk

01-12-2011, 10:15 PM

the lower receiver is to be made from plastic (as well as the butt stock) not from aluminium.
Do you know how the bolt assist function will be performed in new rifle? It has non-reciprocating charging handle apparently...

Catch22

01-13-2011, 07:27 PM

The initial idea was to have it done similiar way Magpul thought it out for Masada - so non-reciprocating handle when moved up on a swivel locks into bolt and serves as an assist. But the thing was to close to the other patent and potentially too complicated to be foolproof, so now they are looking for some new ideas.

Actually the MSBS looks quite diffrent by now, from those green prototypes you've seen - in details that is, not in general shape.

Little J

01-14-2011, 01:54 PM

Any up to date photos?

tony6

01-15-2011, 04:06 AM

Do they plan to move the charging handle fwd? Right now it looks like operating it could be little difficult due to the optics mounted on upper p-rail.

Catch22

01-15-2011, 08:42 PM

Nope - and no, there's not much problem with that - bloodied our knuckles enough on SCAR rails to watch for this particular detail.

tony6

01-16-2011, 06:43 AM

~~~~

01-16-2011, 08:37 AM

I took a briefly look at latest pictures of Tytan equipment (NTW 1/2011) recently and with PCO thermal sight mounted on it would be difficult to reload the gun without hurting your hand. At least that's what it looks like looking at the photo.

how can you know it is difficult if you didn't have it in your hands?
Internet is plenty of such remarks and suggestions concerning MSBS.
it's getting annoying...

tony6

01-16-2011, 11:36 AM

Why do you people get so nervous every time someone asks a question? It was just a normal question.
An easy one.

Catch22

01-17-2011, 08:24 PM

Then I'll answer - the PCO thing itself is rather unwieldy, but you can operate the gun more or less normally. None the less the photos were rather staged so do not get too many ideas from them.

tony6

01-18-2011, 04:20 PM

See ~~~~? You can answer the question without unnecessary emotional comments.
Thanks Catch.

SilentType

01-23-2011, 12:10 AM

So much potential.

wholagun

04-26-2011, 07:30 PM

szanownie panowie, any updates?

peter.pl

04-27-2011, 04:11 AM

szanownie panowie,
Zrobimy to szanownie :D

any updates?
Wait to MSPO

REMOV

05-03-2011, 12:29 PM

szanownie panowie, any updates?Not until the beginning of June. The external look of the MSBS-5,56 was changed a bit.

trytan

06-02-2011, 05:04 AM

http://www.egazety.pl/g/okladki/2404/b/201106.jpg

Bro Jangles

06-02-2011, 05:05 AM

ok, im digging that.

Kunal Biswas

06-02-2011, 10:04 AM

Impressive..

Sousuke

06-02-2011, 10:07 AM

This looks pretty darn sweet!

Can't w8 to see more.

Jameten

06-02-2011, 10:08 AM

damn! i like that alot.

Krafft

06-02-2011, 10:35 AM

Meh, I think I'll never be issued with one of those. My grandchildren on the other hand...

Stormz_STA

06-02-2011, 10:40 AM

Meh, I think I'll never be issued with one of those.

Because Polish Air Force dudes don't need no rifles anyway.
;)

Krafft

06-02-2011, 10:52 AM

That was cruel and unnecessary :(

Majster

06-02-2011, 03:38 PM

Well, I think 2nd mockup just had too little space for whole mechanism to be reliable. This one looks a bit more spacious.

tony6

06-03-2011, 12:40 AM

So that's next upgraded mock-up. Any info when do we see working prototypes?

peter.pl

06-03-2011, 06:57 AM

http://www.wat.edu.pl/images/stories/Fotografie/02193.jpg

Kunal Biswas

06-03-2011, 10:41 AM

^^ How many Rounds that Grenade launcher ( Just below the Bullpup one ) can hold, Can any one Identify it ?

Thanks In Advance..

Krafft

06-03-2011, 11:04 AM

It's RGA-86. Drum holds 15 rounds.

van_pomidor45

06-03-2011, 11:13 AM

I do not know whether this will be the bread ...

~~~~

06-03-2011, 02:51 PM

I do not know whether this will be the bread ...

huh?

.

Chris O`Crooh

06-03-2011, 04:02 PM

^^ How many Rounds that Grenade launcher ( Just below the Bullpup one ) can hold, Can any one Identify it ?

Thanks In Advance..
There is one very interesting police... well, not "weapon" but "law enforcement device" - SZO-84, net-shooting ""Spider-gun" :) left to the RGA-86.

SkyUS

06-03-2011, 06:13 PM

So which version is the army leanin towards the bull up or the regular design?

~~~~

06-03-2011, 06:40 PM

wait for the official tender to be announced. so far, the army has nothing to do with the project.

wwjs

06-03-2011, 07:32 PM

the army has nothing to do with the project.
Ummm... what?

trytan

06-04-2011, 03:33 AM

Ummm... what?

It's very simple Polish Defence Industry wants to add to its portfolio some new toys. That's all for now. The Polish Armed Forces haven't ordered it yet, but there is a good chance that they will buy it in the 'near' future.

REMOV

06-04-2011, 05:10 AM

So which version is the army leanin towards the bull up or the regular design?The former chief of Polish Land Forces, general Buk, who died in the Polish Force One crash at Smolensk, was supported the bullpup design as the standard one for Polish Army. But after his death, his successors both in Land Forces Command and Mechanized and Armored Forces Command (the actual buyer of new equipment) do not answer that question. There is even some ideas from Warsaw's Military Institute of Technology side, co-designer of the MSBS-5,56, that the Polish army should adapt both version - the classic design as direct replacement of Beryl assault rifle, and bullpup one as successor of the Mini Beryl carbine and PM-84P/MP-98 submachine gun. The most important now is to start a second stage of R&D procedure and combine the proven action from technology demonstrator and the new shape to create models and than prototypes.

Majster

06-04-2011, 02:59 PM

Some photos from Altair:

Comparison between bullpup versions (from top 1st mockup, 2nd, and 3rd)
157797

Comparison between classic layout versions (same order)

157798

157799

157800

Photos by Jacek Kijewski and Grzegorz Hołdanowicz
Source: http://www.altair.com.pl/

SkyUS

06-04-2011, 03:03 PM

The former chief of Polish Land Forces, general Buk, who died in the Polish Force One crash at Smolensk, was supported the bullpup design as the standard one for Polish Army. But after his death, his successors both in Land Forces Command and Mechanized and Armored Forces Command (the actual buyer of new equipment) do not answer that question. There is even some ideas from Warsaw's Military Institute of Technology side, co-designer of the MSBS-5,56, that the Polish army should adapt both version - the classic design as direct replacement of Beryl assault rifle, and bullpup one as successor of the Mini Beryl carbine and PM-84P/MP-98 submachine gun. The most important now is to start a second stage of R&D procedure and combine the proven action from technology demonstrator and the new shape to create models and than prototypes.

Thanks for the explanation. I think adopting both versions sounds like a sound idea.

~~~~

06-04-2011, 05:56 PM

http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/1765/01961.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/813/01961.jpg/)

here with the UGL

trytan

06-15-2011, 02:13 PM

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_WfK7Ov4IMU/Tfj2kDH4v2I/AAAAAAAAAkI/8deSDfIPJVc/11.jpg

Krafft

06-15-2011, 02:16 PM

Kinda starting to like it.

wwjs

06-15-2011, 02:22 PM

So does it come with all that stuff on it (opitcs, flashlight etc)?

Krafft

06-15-2011, 02:32 PM

I don't think so, so far it's only a mock-up.

trytan

06-18-2011, 12:08 PM

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/220/111iy.jpg

~~~~

06-18-2011, 12:55 PM

So does it come with all that stuff on it (opitcs, flashlight etc)?

no it doesn't.
only the dedicated side panels placed in the gaps of the handuard are part of the project.

trytan

06-30-2011, 09:14 AM

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3412/02261.jpg

~~~~

07-10-2011, 08:48 PM

http://www.wat.edu.pl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=376:bron-dla-tytana&catid=61:aktualnoci

Bro Jangles

07-10-2011, 09:09 PM

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_WfK7Ov4IMU/Tfj2kDH4v2I/AAAAAAAAAkI/8deSDfIPJVc/11.jpg
Judging by this picture you cant operate the charging handle with your support hand while shouldered.

Chris O`Crooh

07-11-2011, 09:45 AM

The charging handle will be mounted on either side of receiver.

Bro Jangles

07-11-2011, 09:47 AM

The charging handle will be mounted on either side of receiver.I know. my point was that you couldnt work it with the support had and get you hand on the hand on the grip in a FTF/FTE.

Goodbert

07-11-2011, 10:00 AM

~~~~

07-11-2011, 12:37 PM

so what's the point of a weapon have to center of gravity in the back anyway ...

the UGL will be the counterbalance

Little J

07-11-2011, 01:59 PM

mmmhh a little bit to " HALO" in my opinion .. really what's the point of bully up ..everyone who plays Baseball or cricket nows its easier to pull your arm up then down
so what's the point of a weapon have to center of gravity in the back anyway ...

On a long patrol that rear weight would max the weapon "feel" lighter than a front heavy conventional design... (maybe)

~~~~

07-11-2011, 04:26 PM

the conventional design will have a tube in the stock to place there a custom counterbalance.

tony6

07-11-2011, 04:31 PM

Well, looking on the latest configuration of the rifle I can see that charging handle is positioned lower and it's shape is different so I guess my remark that it would be difficult to reload the gun without hurting your hand (with the optics on upper rail) finally made sense;-)
Good to see that people involved in this project do learn.

http://www.magnum-x.pl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1641&catid=4&Itemid=12

tony6

07-24-2011, 06:46 AM

I can also see that UGL is now mounted in a classic way - using lower P-rail. Good. This seems to be much better solution.

I got one more question related to the latest Bull-pup configuration: is upper P-rail and upper receiver going to be one element?
From what I understand upper P-rail will be integral part of the upper receiver machined from one block of material. Is that correct?

mathyou8

07-24-2011, 07:01 AM

why they went for unconventional b/up design too? Anyways i like the conventional one, Poland Strong!11!

trytan

07-25-2011, 02:35 AM

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/9927/20110724142009.jpg
Sorry for the quality... A page ripped out from Nowa technika Wojskowa Nr 7/2011

REMOV

07-25-2011, 03:33 PM

why they went for unconventional b/up design too?You know nothing about MSBS-5,56 project, am I right? The main idea is to create modular weapon system in bullpup and classic design based on COMMON receiver. To use the best from both of the worlds. That's "why", and this is THE basic information about the whole thing...

SilentType

07-28-2011, 11:13 PM

Exactly. The bullpup version will provide a weapon that takes up little space, which is ideal for MOUT operations and provides a PDW for support soldiers while maintaining parts, magazine, and ammunition commonality with the larger assault rifle version. It's a very smart design.

SilentType

07-28-2011, 11:18 PM

I know. my point was that you couldnt work it with the support had and get you hand on the hand on the grip in a FTF/FTE.

You could keep it on your support hand side. You just couldn't maintain a full cheek weld while operating the charging handle. If it has a bolt release that's not really an issue when reloading just when you first chamber a round you'll have to pick up your head a bit. Not a big deal.

tony6

08-02-2011, 12:40 AM

Can anyone confirm that in bull-pup version the upper P-rail and upper receiver are going to be one integral element?

van_pomidor45

08-02-2011, 01:41 AM

Polish army at the moment shows no interest in this rifle ...

hastati

08-02-2011, 02:46 AM

.....................................

peter.pl

08-02-2011, 05:30 AM

Polish army at the moment shows no interest in this rifle ...
Why you think so?

van_pomidor45

08-02-2011, 06:04 AM

Because nothing happens in this case ...

Damian90

08-02-2011, 06:07 AM

Or maybe because MSBS-5,56 is still under R&D phase? Think before You say or write something...

hastati

08-02-2011, 07:03 AM

MSBS program will be granted with financial support from government most likely so it should move it forward to next phase of R&D works.

Mikhael

08-02-2011, 07:04 AM

Polish army at the moment shows no interest in this rifle ...

Because nothing happens in this case ...

Disregard what he is saying. Just a troll nothing to see here.

Fallap

08-02-2011, 07:19 AM

Needs more 7,62

van_pomidor45

08-02-2011, 07:54 AM

In my opinion, this weapon will not enter the Polish military equipment - military are interested in HK 416th ...

peter.pl

08-02-2011, 08:00 AM

Special Forces mate ;)

~~~~

08-02-2011, 09:25 AM

Polish army at the moment shows no interest in this rifle ...

go better polish your English...

tony6

08-03-2011, 12:29 AM

From engineering stand point one thing needs to be slightly redesigned: the shape of the gas regulator well in the latest bull-pup configuration. Especially if they want to have the upper receiver and upeer P-rail made from one piece.

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/4761/ii1106020msbs02.jpg

~~~~

08-03-2011, 04:11 AM

tony6

08-05-2011, 12:49 AM

I see two issues here:
1) first thing is stress distribution in the area. Two unwanted conditions meet here:
- rapid change of cross-section from thick box (receiver box) to thin beam element (P-rail) - not very good in every design.
- very small fillet radius in the gas regulator well area which will result in stress concentration: all the distress (cracks) in the material after couple of years in service will show up right here.
Also you got pretty high temperature gradients in the area (hot barrel during shooting) - another factor which increases your stress.
2) the second issue is stricty technological. I believe the geometry like that can cause some problems during the machining of this area. The P-rail is pretty thin and therefore can cause some issues with providing enough stiffness during the machining process.

I would leave more material under the P-rail (to make it more stiffen) and mill the gas regulator well only in side walls of the reveiver box. Also I would increase the corner fillet radius in the gas regulator well to eliminate/decrease the stress concentration in this area.

REMOV

08-06-2011, 10:20 AM

Can anyone confirm that in bull-pup version the upper P-rail and upper receiver are going to be one integral element?Once again the whole idea is that the modular assault rifle has got a COMMON upper receiver for both classic and bullpup version. When the weapon is coverted to the bullpup version, a module with a handguard and a rail system is mounted directly over the standard upper receiver NATO rail. The rail on rail mount is introduced for some reasons, one of them is to raise the sighting line.

http://h3.abload.de/img/_msbs-556b_explanation5fcf.jpg

tony6

08-06-2011, 02:32 PM

OK then. I was referring to the "rail system module" part, not upper receiver.

corran.pl

12-23-2011, 06:03 PM

Why you think so?

Because they are happy with latest Beryl, and untrusty in reliability of any new and untested design.

Ivan Kesja

12-25-2011, 04:26 AM

I could less about the looks of a weapons, just so as long as it functions and functions when i need it to, it could look like a blended cat sparkled on a turd.

thou I will say the "picture" somewhere above makes it look like it was made from recycled GI joes

REMOV

12-25-2011, 09:30 AM

The design of the MSBS-5,56 systems goes in two ways: the mechanism (action) of modular assault rifle is being tested using the pre-prototype weapons called "technology demonstrators", in the meantime the industrial design team combined with a little help from experienced soldiers as well as commandoes developed external shape (focused on functionality and ergonomy). So for now there are four clumsy-looking demonstrators and four quite pretty external design mock-ups made by 3D printer. When Polish military officials officialy annouced the tactical-technical requirements for a new weapon then those two stages would be combine together. The first MSBS-5,56 model will be available in 2012.

http://h11.abload.de/img/_msbs-2012yqk3d.jpg

peter.pl

12-25-2011, 12:45 PM

Silence! Siemoniak has no idea this project is egsisting, if he knows, he will cancel it ;)

REMOV

12-25-2011, 01:07 PM

Totally useless and very primitive comment. Moreover it is utter gibberish for non-Poles.

peter.pl

12-25-2011, 01:12 PM

Stop it Remov, it wasn't so bad :P Our MoD is like flag in windy day so you got to understand my behavior ;)

REMOV

12-25-2011, 01:19 PM

I do not understand you childish behaviour, I do not understand your stupid comments, as well as I do not understand your primitive complains. As a Pole I feel ashamed of your behaviour on the international forum.

Stormz_STA

12-25-2011, 01:26 PM

Chill out a bit, Remov. It's Christmas and he did add a smiley.

peter.pl

12-25-2011, 01:28 PM

Sory for not being good Pole :C

REMOV

12-25-2011, 01:32 PM

Chill out a bit, Remov. It's Christmas and he did add a smiley.So in your opinion if you add several emoticons to childish and stupid comment it is automatically not so primitive and not so idiotic? This is a thread about the MSBS-5,56 assault rifle and that individual goes there and thrashed it by his rubbish (some political rants about something he knows nothing). I am so sorry that I do not undestand such primitive sense of humour.