What is wrong with the Canadian Military?

[Yes Man]

I came across some interesting facts while talking in another thread and I was wondering why it is that Canada has such a weak military. I don’t mean on a troop level, but the whole military. Even though we only spend 1% of our GDP on our forces, that still comes to around 13 billion dollar CND or about 9.5 Billion USD. This puts us in the same ball park as countries like Israel and South Korea. Why is it that other countries can do so much more with the same or less money that Canada?

[Secret Squirrel]

o Current defence dollars are being wasted and mismanaged. Billions of dollars have been spent on unnecessary military equipment and capabilities such as the faulty British submarines, unused pilot training and communications equipment, the unnecessary Joint Strike Fighter, and other programs.

theres other reasons on the page
http://www.creativeresistance.ca/canada/2002-dec27-a-citizen's-review-of-canada's-military-spending-steven-staples-polaris-institute.htm

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Government red tape / beaucracy.

In short, they promise alot (politicians) but they always write checks there ass cant cash (or at least can mis-manage it in every way possible). It doesnt help that our army's equipment is old, most of it has reached or surpassed its life expectancy. What equipment they do get new, usually isnt enough to fill the void, or is inadequate for the job (re: Griffon helo / Sea King).

In short if you could cut the government out of the military, it probably would be handeled alot better.

[ArmedPacifist]

Our military is not weak.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Our military is not weak.

Nobody said it was, the spending portion should and could be handeled alot more effectively / effeciently.

[ArmedPacifist]

Our military is not weak.

Nobody said it was, the spending portion should and could be handeled alot more effectively / effeciently.

Uhh....did you even READ the first post?


I was wondering why it is that Canada has such a weak military

[Yes Man]

Our military is not weak.

What I mean is not that it is weak, but that for the money it should be alot better.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Exactly it isnt weak its just insanely mismanaged and so filled with red tape that no matter what happens or how much they promise to spend it still will do little if anything to helo the current situation.

[anonymous individual]

Mismanagement is a big thing.

Exampe: Making all military bases wheelchair friendly is one. I mean it is good thing that the military looks into the issue, but there are more important issues out there, such as replacing the Sea King and inserting more APCs.

[SeanAshi]

The "L" word might have something todo with it.

[moughoun]

The "L" word might have something todo with it.

Lesbian's!! where? p-)

[Yes Man]

The "L" word might have something todo with it.

Lesbian's!! where? p-)

Parade is this week!

[Sir Zach of R.]

;)

[b.scheller]

personally, i think that whole department is corrupted and moronic. most if not all, the civil servants in the m.o.d have EVER served in the military. also, the liberals have been using the military as their target for cutting funds and people who can do the job they were educated for.

it just makes me angry that the liberals have taken such a liberty to destroy the Canadian military, especially the para regiment.

[UoUo]

Wait....13 billion dollars in israel...worh a lot more then 13 billion dollar in Canda...did you think about that??????

I mean how much candian dollars Canda spend on thier army per year?


And just wanted to add...why do you care if canda have weak army (which they don't) what enemy you have to fight with?
If Israel whouldn't face over 20 enemy countries..be damm sure that we whouldn't have such a strong army.

[Yes Man]

Wait....13 billion dollars in israel...worh a lot more then 13 billion dollar in Canda...did you think about that??????

I mean how much candian dollars Canda spend on thier army per year?


And just wanted to add...why do you care if canda have weak army (which they don't) what enemy you have to fight with?
If Israel whouldn't face over 20 enemy countries..be damm sure that we whouldn't have such a strong army.

What do you mean, 13 billion dollars is worth more in Israel?

My problem is we should be equal to Israel in terms of equipment and military capability (minus experience) because we are spending as much on our army as Israel is.

[Brozozo]

o Current defence dollars are being wasted and mismanaged. Billions of dollars have been spent on unnecessary military equipment and capabilities such as the faulty British submarines, unused pilot training and communications equipment, the unnecessary Joint Strike Fighter, and other programs.

theres other reasons on the page
http://www.creativeresistance.ca/canada/2002-dec27-a-citizen's-review-of-canada's-military-spending-steven-staples-polaris-institute.htm

Don't you ever dare link such bullsh*t sites ever again, you hear me?

[Brozozo]

Our military is not weak.

It is rather weak as a whole, on a per-soldier basis the CF is doing fine but the CF as a whole needs serious revamping.

[Secret Squirrel]

o Current defence dollars are being wasted and mismanaged. Billions of dollars have been spent on unnecessary military equipment and capabilities such as the faulty British submarines, unused pilot training and communications equipment, the unnecessary Joint Strike Fighter, and other programs.

theres other reasons on the page
http://www.creativeresistance.ca/canada/2002-dec27-a-citizen's-review-of-canada's-military-spending-steven-staples-polaris-institute.htm

Don't you ever dare link such bullsh*t sites ever again, you hear me?

I dont think i could ever take you seriously because of your avatar, sorry. woot

[UoUo]

Wait....13 billion dollars in israel...worh a lot more then 13 billion dollar in Canda...did you think about that??????

I mean how much candian dollars Canda spend on thier army per year?


And just wanted to add...why do you care if canda have weak army (which they don't) what enemy you have to fight with?
If Israel whouldn't face over 20 enemy countries..be damm sure that we whouldn't have such a strong army.

What do you mean, 13 billion dollars is worth more in Israel?

My problem is we should be equal to Israel in terms of equipment and military capability (minus experience) because we are spending as much on our army as Israel is.

Look...we spend around 9 billion dollar...that worth around 40 billion NS

+ the fact that we product alot of our equipment and we buy it from our own company...

You see what i mean? or i will try to ask for another Israeli member (with better english) to exsplain you.

BTW: how much sol' do you have in your army?

[Yes Man]

Wait....13 billion dollars in israel...worh a lot more then 13 billion dollar in Canda...did you think about that??????

I mean how much candian dollars Canda spend on thier army per year?


And just wanted to add...why do you care if canda have weak army (which they don't) what enemy you have to fight with?
If Israel whouldn't face over 20 enemy countries..be damm sure that we whouldn't have such a strong army.

What do you mean, 13 billion dollars is worth more in Israel?

My problem is we should be equal to Israel in terms of equipment and military capability (minus experience) because we are spending as much on our army as Israel is.

Look...we spend around 9 billion dollar...that worth around 40 billion NS

+ the fact that we product alot of our equipment and we buy it from our own company...

You see what i mean? or i will try to ask for another Israeli member (with better english) to exsplain you.

BTW: how much sol' do you have in your army?

I do not really understand what you are saying, if you could find someone who could better explain it, that would be great.

[b.scheller]

i'm guessing, that "uo" means that because the Israelis produce their own equipment and they buy from the IMI (Israeli Military Industries), they get subsidies and therefore can buy more eqiuipment. Thats at least what I understood from his initial post...

[Yes Man]

i'm guessing, that "uo" means that because the Israelis produce their own equipment and they buy from the IMI (Israeli Military Industries), they get subsidies and therefore can buy more eqiuipment. Thats at least what I understood from his initial post...

I thought every military did that. Canada almost always buys Canadain made stuff.

[b.scheller]

well i could always be wrong, but isnt most of the Canadian manufactured equipment fall under American liscences and patents?

[ArmedPacifist]

Our military is not weak.

It is rather weak as a whole, on a per-soldier basis the CF is doing fine but the CF as a whole needs serious revamping.

DND needs revamping, the CF is just fine.

[memphiz]

All of Canada right now is fudged up when it comes to spending money properly. Its the libs trying to win hearts and minds *cough* Quebec *cough* by spending huge amounts of money. Its pitiful.

[UoUo]

How much Candian dollar worth one American dollar?

[b.scheller]

$0.73CDN makes up one USD

[Secret Squirrel]

$0.73CDN makes up one USD

You mean .73 cents American equals one Canadian dollar.

[UoUo]

FFS i mean 13 billon american dollar worth about 14 billion Candain dollar

And 13 billion Amrican dollar in israel worth something like 50 billion Israeli shekels....


And since we buy a lot of our equipment from our IMI IAI and act....

Our 13 billion worth more...can't you see my point????

Or i failed...and my english and my ability to exsplain something is so lame :( don't be scare to bash me...it's ok.

[ArmedPacifist]

Language barrier, but I think I understand what you mean.


Since you spend your money locally it is pumped right back into national industry, and is therefore good for business to spend money.

[UoUo]

Language barrier, but I think I understand what you mean.


Since you spend your money locally it is pumped right back into national industry, and is therefore good for business to spend money.

that 2 but what i meant is like that.....product an Armored car in Israel will cost less then product the same car in Canada cuz the Workforce in Israel is cheaper then the work force in canada you get my point?

What do you think? i have a point?

[Secret Squirrel]

FFS i mean 13 billon american dollar worth about 14 billion Candain dollar

And 13 billion Amrican dollar in israel worth something like 50 billion Israeli shekels....


And since we buy a lot of our equipment from our IMI IAI and act....

Our 13 billion worth more...can't you see my point????

Or i failed...and my english and my ability to exsplain something is so lame :( don't be scare to bash me...it's ok.

13 Billion American equals 17,459,000,000 Canadian. I think what he's trying to say, is that when you convert the money, you have more Shekels from 13 billion American than you would have if you converted 13 billion American into Canadian dollars. But, you have to compare prices on similar equipment or something so you can see the comparison. This way you can be sure your money goes farther. For example, something in Canada could be 5 dollars, but the same thing in Isreal could be 10 Shekels; basically they cost the same but its just a different price market. Does this make any sense?

[UoUo]

FFS i mean 13 billon american dollar worth about 14 billion Candain dollar

And 13 billion Amrican dollar in israel worth something like 50 billion Israeli shekels....


And since we buy a lot of our equipment from our IMI IAI and act....

Our 13 billion worth more...can't you see my point????

Or i failed...and my english and my ability to exsplain something is so lame :( don't be scare to bash me...it's ok.

13 Billion American equals 17,459,000,000 Canadian. I think what he's trying to say, is that when you convert the money, you have more Shekels from 13 billion American than you would have if you converted 13 billion American into Canadian dollars. But, you have to compare prices on similar equipment or something so you can see the comparison. This way you can be sure your money goes farther. For example, something in Canada could be 5 dollars, but the same thing in Isreal could be 10 Shekels; basically they cost the same but its just a different price market. Does this make any sense?

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes.

We have a point here?

[Secret Squirrel]

FFS i mean 13 billon american dollar worth about 14 billion Candain dollar

And 13 billion Amrican dollar in israel worth something like 50 billion Israeli shekels....


And since we buy a lot of our equipment from our IMI IAI and act....

Our 13 billion worth more...can't you see my point????

Or i failed...and my english and my ability to exsplain something is so lame :( don't be scare to bash me...it's ok.

13 Billion American equals 17,459,000,000 Canadian. I think what he's trying to say, is that when you convert the money, you have more Shekels from 13 billion American than you would have if you converted 13 billion American into Canadian dollars. But, you have to compare prices on similar equipment or something so you can see the comparison. This way you can be sure your money goes farther. For example, something in Canada could be 5 dollars, but the same thing in Isreal could be 10 Shekels; basically they cost the same but its just a different price market. Does this make any sense?

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes.

We have a point here?

Yes you may have a point there. But if you can find something for a comparison, like if possible, the same item or product in Canada and Isreal, and their prices, and then compare them based on the U.S dollar, you conclude if the currency in Isreal goes father than Canada money.

[UoUo]

FFS i mean 13 billon american dollar worth about 14 billion Candain dollar

And 13 billion Amrican dollar in israel worth something like 50 billion Israeli shekels....


And since we buy a lot of our equipment from our IMI IAI and act....

Our 13 billion worth more...can't you see my point????

Or i failed...and my english and my ability to exsplain something is so lame :( don't be scare to bash me...it's ok.

13 Billion American equals 17,459,000,000 Canadian. I think what he's trying to say, is that when you convert the money, you have more Shekels from 13 billion American than you would have if you converted 13 billion American into Canadian dollars. But, you have to compare prices on similar equipment or something so you can see the comparison. This way you can be sure your money goes farther. For example, something in Canada could be 5 dollars, but the same thing in Isreal could be 10 Shekels; basically they cost the same but its just a different price market. Does this make any sense?

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes.

We have a point here?

Yes you may have a point there. But if you can find something for a comparison, like if possible, the same item or product in Canada and Isreal, and their prices, and then compare them based on the U.S dollar, you conclude if the currency in Isreal goes father than Canada money.

Hmm...i can't finf any item...but i know for sure that A merkava tank (that It is in the same level as M1a1 tank are) cost much less then a M1a1 tank.

But i think the other Israeli member like Idfm203 ;) will do a better job here.

[East]

We do acctually buy quite a bit from canadians companies. To kiss French ass the gov hands out the contracts mainly to Quebec. One of the main reasons why the griffons rotors break for no reason...you guessed it *made in quebec* plus we don't have enough man power to train new people in trades and such. Instead of listening to the people who acctually use the equipment they just ask some dumb arse whos never spent a day involved with the military how to *solve the problem the cheapest way possible*. This leads to such programs as...the combat bra, griffon helicopter, slapping on an armour kit to the leopards (can we say engine and trannie stress? it wasn't designed for it.), the striker(which isn't purchased yet, but is planned to be). Also, Canada has a very top heavy military in the fact that we have far to many officers for the number of NCM's. These are all major products of bureaucracy.

[EvanL]

Canadas economy is much stronger than Israels. But Israel produces its own military equiptment, and doesnt have to pay as much for it due to that fact.

[UoUo]

Canadas economy is much stronger than Israels. But Israel produces its own military equiptment, and doesnt have to pay as much for it due to that fact.

Hey...don't dout our economy...

[scott]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15873&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

there were wise words uttered in that thread

[EvanL]

Canadas economy is much stronger than Israels. But Israel produces its own military equiptment, and doesnt have to pay as much for it due to that fact.

Hey...don't dout our economy...
Im not.
But we are the 7th richest nation in the world.
But we dont produce our own military equiptment like u guys do.

[UoUo]

Canadas economy is much stronger than Israels. But Israel produces its own military equiptment, and doesnt have to pay as much for it due to that fact.

Hey...don't dout our economy...
Im not.
But we are the 7th richest nation in the world.
But we dont produce our own military equiptment like u guys do.

Fine by me... :D I realize that you ever better economy...

[EvanL]

Canadas economy is much stronger than Israels. But Israel produces its own military equiptment, and doesnt have to pay as much for it due to that fact.

Hey...don't dout our economy...
Im not.
But we are the 7th richest nation in the world.
But we dont produce our own military equiptment like u guys do.

Fine by me... :D I realize that you ever better economy...
Ken :D

[UoUo]

Canadas economy is much stronger than Israels. But Israel produces its own military equiptment, and doesnt have to pay as much for it due to that fact.

Hey...don't dout our economy...
Im not.
But we are the 7th richest nation in the world.
But we dont produce our own military equiptment like u guys do.

Fine by me... :D I realize that you ever better economy...
Ken :D

:lol:

[stuntman]

Canadas economy is much stronger than Israels. But Israel produces its own military equiptment, and doesnt have to pay as much for it due to that fact.

Lets not forget our friend from middle east(Isreal) gets a allowance and most of it is spent back here (in USA) and Isreal gets the equal discount that the DOD gets.

[EvanL]

Canadas economy is much stronger than Israels. But Israel produces its own military equiptment, and doesnt have to pay as much for it due to that fact.

Lets not forget our friend from middle east(Isreal) gets a allowance and most of it is spent back here (in USA) and Isreal gets the equal discount that the DOD gets.
True.
But what they get they spend wisely. In Canada we spend it on social programs.

[[AFSOC]]

Ok seriously...

CAnada's military does twice the work then some European nations do when they have a military twice the size of Canada's.

Canadians should be PROUD and not ashamed of there military. its a good FORCE wit great people and great training its just a lil underfunded because of POLITICS.

O CANADA

[East]

no ones going to even reply to that speal i made? not even a flame or anything? that was a waste of 15 minutes...

[Trigger]

Great post East! woot
Kick ass, take names! :D

[Secret Squirrel]

This leads to such programs as...the combat bra, griffon helicopter, slapping on an armour kit to the leopards (can we say engine and trannie stress? it wasn't designed for it.), the striker(which isn't purchased yet, but is planned to be).

Why would Canada buy strykers when it has their Coyote?

[scott]

We do acctually buy quite a bit from canadians companies. To kiss French ass the gov hands out the contracts mainly to Quebec. One of the main reasons why the griffons rotors break for no reason...you guessed it *made in quebec* plus we don't have enough man power to train new people in trades and such. Instead of listening to the people who acctually use the equipment they just ask some dumb arse whos never spent a day involved with the military how to *solve the problem the cheapest way possible*. This leads to such programs as...the combat bra, griffon helicopter, slapping on an armour kit to the leopards (can we say engine and trannie stress? it wasn't designed for it.), the striker(which isn't purchased yet, but is planned to be). Also, Canada has a very top heavy military in the fact that we have far to many officers for the number of NCM's. These are all major products of bureaucracy.

is this the one youre talking about?

you ****ing wanker, your views are all wrong blah blah blah
that better? ;)

top heavy military: yes, of course
is it a bad thing? well not for me
is it a bad thing for DND as a whole? yes, of course- major reform is needed. unfortunately dont go expecting reductions at NDHQ from a conservative or liberal government.

as far as made in quebec solutions go, its not just a DND challenge but a HRDC quagmire.
and i lack the energy to hijack this post into a lets give jobs to such and such group debate

as for the bureaucrat bashing, ill leave it at this.
there is a balance to be kept in decision making at the DND level.
that balance exists between the over educated policy officers (note: over educated as a good thing) and soldiers

[SeanAshi]

Canada needs to replace their C-130's

[scott]

:roll:

[[AFSOC]]

Canada needs to replace their C-130's


Already a projectt on that dude...same wit for the C3A1, Seaking and a bunch of other junk

[scott]

This leads to such programs as...the combat bra, griffon helicopter, slapping on an armour kit to the leopards (can we say engine and trannie stress? it wasn't designed for it.), the striker(which isn't purchased yet, but is planned to be).

Why would Canada buy strykers when it has their Coyote?

Please dont compare Coyote and the MGS
Unless you simply didnt know the roles of either
In that case, read more CASR (www.sfu.ca/casr) or Jane's and less Polaris Institute

Im not attacking you, but come on...

[Secret Squirrel]

This leads to such programs as...the combat bra, griffon helicopter, slapping on an armour kit to the leopards (can we say engine and trannie stress? it wasn't designed for it.), the striker(which isn't purchased yet, but is planned to be).

Why would Canada buy strykers when it has their Coyote?

Please dont compare Coyote and the MGS
Unless you simply didnt know the roles of either
In that case, read more CASR (www.sfu.ca/casr) or Jane's and less Polaris Institute

Im not attacking you, but come on...

My mistake. So what does Canada currently use that the stryker would replace?

[Brozozo]

This leads to such programs as...the combat bra, griffon helicopter, slapping on an armour kit to the leopards (can we say engine and trannie stress? it wasn't designed for it.), the striker(which isn't purchased yet, but is planned to be).

Why would Canada buy strykers when it has their Coyote?

Please dont compare Coyote and the MGS
Unless you simply didnt know the roles of either
In that case, read more CASR (www.sfu.ca/casr) or Jane's and less Polaris Institute

Im not attacking you, but come on...

My mistake. So what does Canada currently use that the stryker would replace?

The C1 Leps, with the 105 MGS Stryker variant

[memphiz]

We do acctually buy quite a bit from canadians companies. To kiss French ass the gov hands out the contracts mainly to Quebec. One of the main reasons why the griffons rotors break for no reason...you guessed it *made in quebec* plus we don't have enough man power to train new people in trades and such. Instead of listening to the people who acctually use the equipment they just ask some dumb arse whos never spent a day involved with the military how to *solve the problem the cheapest way possible*. This leads to such programs as...the combat bra, griffon helicopter, slapping on an armour kit to the leopards (can we say engine and trannie stress? it wasn't designed for it.), the striker(which isn't purchased yet, but is planned to be). Also, Canada has a very top heavy military in the fact that we have far to many officers for the number of NCM's. These are all major products of bureaucracy.
*sticks up thumb*

[East]

They're acctually going to replace the leopard with it...*runs away crying* :P good to see that someone agrees with me memphiz. :)

[scott]

They're acctually going to replace the leopard with it...*runs away crying* :P

so tell me how you *really* feel about it? :)

[memphiz]

They're acctually going to replace the leopard with it...*runs away crying* :P good to see that someone agrees with me memphiz. :)
Its them damn Quebeciours p-)
I think any maintainence on military vehicles should be doen in AB or BC, ,lots of people looking for jobs

[East]

lol...well if you really want to know, it makes me mad. Mad enough to kick the ass of whoever thought of the boneheaded idea of replacing all our tanks with LAV's...common LAVs for god's sake.

[scott]

dont tell me youre a tanker

play the policy officer:
what do you replace the leopards with?
note: answers of M1Ax's will be dealt with ridicule and name calling

[East]

I don't honestly know what to replace it with. I've read articles from top military analists, and talked with people I know serving with the CF and they say don't replaces tanks with LAV's so I'm inclined to follow their advice. I may be able to find the articles if you'd like to read them, but no guarentees. I read so much stuff so often that I forget when and where I learn these things.

[scott]

I've already said my piece about the MGS
Its not perfect, and the vehicle itself has flaws

That being said, the concept of replacing MBTs with a self-propelled gun based on a current LAV has merit
When I think of the alternative- buying surplus NATO tanks, I have a tough time thinking otherwise
CF is a niche force, with a niche mission
Call me a polisci student but rationally, this is the type of "tank" that the 21st century calls for (*for canada)

The soldiers that say otherwise (of course) because they dont write policy and they dont have the training to create doctrine. They are damned good at manoevre and tactics, but grand strategy and goals is up to the "pencil pushers", and in this case, I think theyre on the right track.

[Mongrel]

This topic has been covered quite well on another board.

IMHO our forces are good for the roles they are trained in. Which must in part come from the fact that you have to do your best with what you have.

Some old timers in the CF think we are in trouble. I'm not going to say anymore on that as I dont think it is OK to air our contries dirty laundry on a public message board.

Cheers!
M.