Illegal Immigrants face detentions, few rights

[Ordie]

Immigrants face detentions, few rights
By MICHELLE ROBERTS – 3 days ago
America's detention system for immigrants has mushroomed in the last decade, a costly building boom that was supposed to sweep up criminals and ensure that undocumented immigrants were quickly shown the door.
Instead, an Associated Press computer analysis of every person being held on a recent Sunday night shows that most did not have a criminal record and many were not about to leave the country — voluntarily or via deportation.
An official Immigration and Customs Enforcement database, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, showed a U.S. detainee population of exactly 32,000 on the evening of Jan. 25.
The data show that 18,690 immigrants had no criminal conviction, not even for illegal entry or low-level crimes like trespassing. More than 400 of those with no criminal record had been incarcerated for at least a year. A dozen had been held for three years or more; one man from China had been locked up for more than five years.
Nearly 10,000 had been in custody longer than 31 days — the average detention stay that ICE cites as evidence of its effective detention management.
Especially tough bail conditions are exacerbated by disregard or bending of the rules regarding how long immigrants can be detained.
Based on a 2001 ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court, ICE has about six months to deport or release immigrants after their case is decided. But immigration lawyers say that deadline is routinely missed. In the system snapshot provided to the AP, 950 people were in that category.
The detainee buildup began in the mid 1990s, long before the 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Since 2003, though, Congress has doubled to $1.7 billion the amount dedicated to imprisoning immigrants, as furor over "criminal aliens" intertwined with post-9/11 fears and anti-immigrant political rhetoric.
But the dragnet has come to include not only terrorism suspects and cop killers, but an honors student who was raised in Orlando, Fla.; a convenience store clerk who begged to go back to Canada; and a Pentecostal minister who was forcibly drugged by ICE agents after he asked to contact his wife, according to court records.
Immigration lawyers note that substantial numbers of detainees, from 177 countries in the data provided, are not illegal immigrants at all. Many of the longest-term non-criminal detainees are asylum seekers fighting to stay here because they fear being killed in their home country. Others are longtime residents who may be eligible to stay under other criteria, or whose applications for permanent residency were lost or mishandled, the lawyers say.
Still other long-term detainees include people who can't be deported because their home country won't accept them or people who seemingly have been forgotten in the behemoth system, where 58 percent have no lawyers or anyone else advocating on their behalf.
___
ICE says detention is the best way to guarantee that immigrants attend court hearings and leave the country when ordered.
"It's ensuring compliance, and if you look at the stats, for folks who are in detention, the stats are pretty darn high," said ICE spokeswoman Cori Bassett.
By comparison though, most criminal suspects, even sometimes those accused of heinous offenses, are entitled to bail.
For detainees, ICE agents make an initial determination whether someone is eligible for bond. Federal law says most criminals, some asylum seekers, arriving immigrants who have problems with their documentation and those recently ordered removed from the country must remain in detention.
"We're immigrants, and it makes it seem like it's worse than a criminal," said Sarjina Emy, a 20-year-old former honors student who spent nearly two years in a Florida lockup because her parents' asylum claim was denied when she was a child. "I always thought America does so much for justice. I really thought you get a fair trial. You actually go to court. (U.S. authorities) know what they are doing. Now, I figured out that it only works for criminal citizens."
Some advocates and lawyers complain that ICE often stretches the definition of non-bondable categories to keep immigrants in custody. Immigrants can appeal adverse determinations, but while their claim works through the court system, they remain jailed.
For example, Zoubir Bouchikhi, an Algerian imam who has lived legally in the United States for 11 years, said by phone from a Houston detention center that he was placed in custody early this year and classified as "an arriving alien," making him ineligible for bail. A homeowner with several U.S.-born children, Bouchikhi said he last entered the United States in 2006, on a legal visa.
The use of detention to ensure immigrants show up for immigration court comes at a high cost compared to alternatives like electronic ankle monitoring, which can track people for considerably less money per day.
Based on the amount budgeted for this fiscal year, U.S. taxpayers will pay about $141 a night — the equivalent of a decent hotel room — for each immigrant detained, even though paroling them on ankle monitors — at a budgeted average daily cost of $13 — has an almost perfect compliance rate, according to ICE's own stats.
Critics argue that since the immigration court system lacks the constitutional protections granted accused murderers and rapists, taxpayers are grossly overspending for a system that is inhumane and unfair.
"This is not an economically rational way of ensuring people show up, and it doesn't further justice," said Judy Rabinovitz of the American Civil Liberties Union's Immigrants Rights Project.
___
For years, ICE and its predecessor, the Immigration and Naturalization Service, had the power to detain immigrants. With little bed space or public clamor to lock people up, though, millions of foreigners quietly went about life in the United States.
In 1996, Congress passed a pair of laws requiring that immigrants who committed crimes be locked up for deportation, beginning a dramatic run-up in incarcerations. So-called "criminal aliens" — immigrants convicted of a crime, including some misdemeanors like low-level drug crimes — became mandatory detainees even if their original crime brought no prison time.
A system that housed 6,785 immigrants in 1994 now holds nearly five times that amount in 260 facilities across the country, most under contract with local governments or private companies. For this fiscal year, ICE has enough money budgeted for 33,400 people on any given night.
Groups that advocate limits on immigration see no problem with the growing use of incarceration, which they say is a deterrent.
"Just because you haven't committed a crime doesn't mean that you shouldn't be held in detention until you can be deported," said Ira Mehlman, a spokesman for the Federation for American Immigration Reform. Even though not every illegal immigrant can be held, "if you bust a certain amount, it sends a message."
The message hasn't resonated with Emy, who was raised in Orlando, Fla., but spent 20 months in a detention center even though she had no criminal record. She traded her Baby Phat clothes for a gray uniform and window-shopping at the mall for a law library behind razor wire.
Her only crime? Her parents, who feared her father's political affiliations endangered the family, brought her and two brothers to the United States from Bangladesh in September 2003 — when she was 5, according to court documents.
She doesn't speak Bangla and never imagined a future without college. No one in her family realized her father's work certificate from the Labor Department didn't equate to legal immigration status.
Family members were rounded up in July 2007, treated as fugitives on a dated but active deportation order.
Her parents were deported first. Emy languished in custody while continuing her fight to stay.
But because the asylum application had been filed on behalf of the entire family, only the parents got a hearing. Emy never saw a judge, according to Emy and her attorney.
"Justice is not being served," she said from a prison pay phone.
In January, a federal appeals court denied her petition to stay in the U.S. Fearing she'd celebrate another birthday behind bars, Emy agreed to be deported and left the country Feb. 18.
Immigration law "is the only United States law where we punish the children for the actions of their parents," said Emy's attorney, Petia Vimitrova Knowles.
___
Immigration violations are considered civil, something akin to a moving violation in a car, so the government can imprison immigrants without many of the rights criminals receive: No court-appointed attorney for indigent defendants, no standard habeas corpus, no protection from double jeopardy, no guarantee of a speedy trial.
"You're locking up people without even a hearing," said Rabinovitz. "That, to me, is the outrage: basic due process. Since when do we allow the government to lock up people without even giving them a bond hearing?"
Most immigrants are navigating a complex legal system without an attorney. Fifty-eight percent went through immigration proceedings without an attorney in fiscal year 2007, according to the Executive Office for Immigration Review, a branch of the U.S. Justice Department.
Those who do have an attorney have little recourse if that lawyer turns out to be incompetent. In one of his last acts as Bush administration attorney general, Michael Mukasey reversed years of precedent by ruling that immigrants, unlike criminal defendants, cannot appeal on the grounds of incompetent counsel.
The Migration Policy Institute, a nonpartisan think tank that includes former officials from Republican and Democratic administrations, recently issued a study calling for numerous changes in the Department of Homeland Security, which oversees ICE, including allowing better access to legal counsel for incarcerated immigrants.
"People can be lost in that vortex, and they can be lost for years," said Donald Kerwin, who wrote the report with former INS Director Doris Meissner. "It's the reason why legal counsel is so crucial."
But, ICE officials often argue, immigrants largely hold the keys to their own freedom. If they simply agree to return to their home country, they can go, Bassett said.
"They're making a choice (that) they're going to appeal, which is their right," she said.
But even giving up, or winning a claim, doesn't always spell freedom because ICE acts as police officer, arraignment judge, jailer and prosecutor. It has sole jurisdiction over when a detained immigrant is sent back after a deportation order is issued, and can continue to hold immigrants while it appeals a decision that didn't go its way.
In 2007, an immigration judge ruled that Samuel Kambo, a former energy minister of Sierra Leone who had a master's degree and no criminal history, should be granted permanent residency after being detained for eight months. But ICE continued to hold him for four more months while it appealed. Kambo was released only after his lawyer went to federal court and made a successful constitutional challenge.
In another telling case, Ahmad Al-Shrmany, a 34-year-old Iraqi with no appeal pending, begged for a year to be deported and yet remained in detention. He wanted to be allowed to go to his native Iraq or his adopted Canada, where he had been granted asylum a decade ago. A lawyer filed a habeas corpus petition in December that went unanswered.
"Just deport me. That's your job," he said in a late January interview with the AP that ICE officials tried to block minutes before it was scheduled at a Houston lockup.
Less than a week after the interview, Al-Shrmany was deported to Canada, said his lawyer, Afreen Ahmed. Bassett said later the timing of the deportation was "completely coincidental."
In custody, Al-Shrmany had grown distraught.
"In Iraq, you can get killed one time. Here, this is not the life I was wishing for," he said from a cinderblock meeting room.
___
Immigrant advocates say ICE prefers incarceration for non-criminal immigrants, even though alternatives are available, for one major reason: to strong-arm people.
"When you're there for weeks and weeks or months or months, your determination to fight your charges is reduced," said Judy Green, a policy analyst with Justice Strategies, a nonpartisan think tank on incarceration issues. The goal is "to keep intense pressure on detainees to agree to removal and not to fight on whatever grounds they have for relief."
The Rev. Raymond Soeoth, a Pentecostal minister from Indonesia who had never been imprisoned, said his lengthy incarceration — and the uncertainty of how long it would last — wore on him as he fought his immigration case and pursued a lawsuit accusing ICE officials of forcibly drugging him and other detainees.
"We just wait. We cannot do anything," said Soeoth, who was released after more than two years, given a special visa as part of the government's settlement of the drugging lawsuit.
ICE officials argue that immigrants won't show up to hearings, or leave when ordered out, unless they're imprisoned. About a third of released immigrants with no electronic monitoring failed to show up to immigration court proceedings in fiscal year 2007, according to the Executive Office of Immigration Review.
Bassett said the failure-to-appear rate for actual deportation jumps to 95 to 97 percent with no electronic monitoring, the main reason groups like FAIR push for more use of detention.
Still, electronic monitoring has proven effective. ICE's intensive supervision program — which includes electronic monitoring, curfews and other probation-like provisions — has a 99 percent appearance rate at immigration hearings and 95 percent at final order hearings, according to ICE's fact sheets. The agency says 94 percent of those allowed to remain on electronic monitoring after they've been ordered deported leave when their appeals are exhausted.
The Migration Policy Institute says the agency should use electronic monitors to replace detention of immigrants without criminal records or even those with only nonviolent records who don't pose a risk to the community.
"What you've done is you've eliminated any fear of flight. The whole rationale for detention is to keep people from absconding, and in rare cases, protect the public," Kerwin said. "Alternatives can allow you to use detention space more judiciously."
Currently, an average of 2,700 immigrants per day are on electronic monitoring in "alternative to detention" programs budgeted to accommodate 13,000 people this year.
Immigrant advocates complain the agency is using the monitors mostly to supervise people who previously would have been released on bond or on their own recognizance — not to reduce the number of people incarcerated.
"They're not trying to reduce bed space. Their goal is to have everybody in some kind of custodial program," said Andrea Black, coordinator for the nonprofit Detention Watch Network.

Source:http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hhq3tuXz0kIZHjI3zLa8OWIUeHwwD96UKUIG0

[Dominique]

I've no sympathy for someone who comes to the US illegally, and gets caught. If you want to immigrate to the US, more power to you. All I ask is that you do it LEGALLY. That's it. Go through the process, and get your green card. If not, and you get locked up, for you know, breaking federal immigration laws, then tough sh*t. Don't break the law to begin with, and you don't have to worry about cooling you heals, while waiting to be deported.

[California Joe]

Jesus f*cking Christ Ordie, they're illegal. Look the f*cking word up. They aren't friendly puppies that followed you home, they aren't model citizens, they are in this country illegally. They are criminals. I don't care why they are here. They shouldn't be.

That article wouldn't happen to be a little biased would it?

[Hollis]

I can have empathy on someone leaving their home of birth for a better life.

Now what about all the legal immigrants that did all the right things, waited, etc to come here? What about them, is there any fairness in allowing another group a complete free ride into the states.


And as CJ pointed out, they are Illegal................

[Nano]

ICE is hard as ice when it comes to the weak no doubt, but they can't do **** about the employers who hire them. Frankly detaining them for such extended periods of time beyond their day in court is a waste of tax payer resources. ICE does not get paid to get their kicks tormenting illegals, but to enforce immigration law. If the person signs voluntary deportation papers and he/she has been told his rights under the law then deport them easy as pie. I see no reason to keep people in detention beyond processing them and kicking them out of country. Perhaps the fact that there is a stench of corruption involving the expansion of budgets for detention centers has more to do with it than trying to teach them illegals a lesson.

[click]

And as CJ pointed out, they are Illegal................

..............

[matthew.manhorn]

Not only do the illegal immigrants deprive rights from local citizens, they also deprive it from those of legal immigrants.

[iammyne]

Jesus f*cking Christ Ordie, they're illegal. Look the f*cking word up. They aren't friendly puppies that followed you home, they aren't model citizens, they are in this country illegally. They are criminals. I don't care why they are here. They shouldn't be.

That article wouldn't happen to be a little biased would it?

They are illegal, unlawful but not criminal. Loosen up Joe, they did not come to ********* but to earn a decent livelihood for them and their family and to lead their life in dignity, you got a skewed up moral meter. If 'model citizen' is the token of standard to live in a society I believe you would have been locked up behind as well.

[Hot Lips]

They are illegal, unlawful but not criminal. Loosen up Joe,

They are illegal and in many cases criminal, so tighten up, iammyne, before questioning anyone else's moral meter by trying to defend people who

came here to take jobs, income, benefits that they know they aren't entitled to. To knowingly lie on employment, bank, IRS and other officials records. In some cases to knowingly not pay taxes. To knowingly steal or establish false identities. To knowingly start unlicensed businesses out of their garages or off the back of their track to undercut legitimate businesses own by and who employ our citizens. To knowingly hire other illegals. To knowingly help hide other illegals. To have babies that wouldn't otherwise be citizens as secondary offensive in their quest to derail our immigration process and undermine foreigners trying to come to this country legally.

And yes, some of them also commit crimes like rape and murder.

We have to deal with citizens that break our laws and we pay taxes to support our justice system for this purpose. We shouldn't have to deal with nor pay for illegals that commit any variety of these or other crimes every day that they are here dishonestly, illegally.

[Irons]

http://thereaganwing.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/desert-2.jpg

Great Folks. While we're at it, why don't we just give them the Ranches they tear up, then they can clean all this crap up. They'll do it. Right?

[California Joe]

They are illegal, unlawful but not criminal. Loosen up Joe, they did not come to rape your women or kill your child but to earn a decent livelihood for them and their family and to lead their life in dignity, you got a skewed up moral meter. If 'model citizen' is the token of standard to live in a society I believe you would have been locked up behind as well.

Who the f*ck are you?

I don't give a f*ck why they came here. They didn't do it legally. Some may be perfectly nice people that want a better life, some may be MS 13 members. I don't care. They're all illegal. My "moral meter" works just fine. ****.

[rOjOdogg]

migrants who do not cross legally and work in the USA, pay taxes, which they can not reclaim, the US Goverment gets Billions in taxes from migrant laborers which only benifit the citizens of the USA. Most migrants only wish to work in the US and then return home, they do not wish to imigrate, you all have biased notions perpetuated by the media and goverment. Getting a Visa into the US is not an easy process and a very expensive one. So for poor people it is easier to just cross the border and go work and then return home. And I understand Americans dont want undocumented migrants in your country, niether do we, we have the same problem in Mexico with Central Americans.

[Zoomie]

migrants who do not cross legally and work in the USA, pay taxes, which they can not reclaim, the US Goverment gets Billions in taxes from migrant laborers which only benifit the citizens of the USA.
Prove it.

Most migrants only wish to work in the US and then return home, they do not wish to imigrate, you all have biased notions perpetuated by the media and goverment. So, you know this how?

Getting a Visa into the US is not an easy process and a very expensive one. So for poor people it is easier to just cross the border and go work and then return home. Which makes it okay to come to my country and break our laws? :roll:

And I understand Americans dont want undocumented migrants in your country, niether do we, we have the same problem in Mexico with Central Americans.rofl It's comical how you play the sob story for the illegals in America, when I know it's the exact opposite in Mexico for the Central Americans in Mexico illegally.

[StukaJr]

I keep on saying this, but people whom are in US illegally are of that status purely at their own fault - INS grants everybody temporary legal status as soon as any application is received and until the decision is rendered... Most overused emotion evoking deportation cases are the parents deported while their US born children stay in the country are the examples of how little these people do for their status - "Ancor Child" case is a single form that any do-it-yourself lawyer will fill out for fifty bucks, so I don't see how people that don't do the basic effort for their own sake can get any sympathy or blame the system...

My family have gone the guest visa immigration approach - at no point in the process did we become "illegal" even if we didn't have ze papers...

[Hot Lips]

migrants who do not cross legally and work in the USA, pay taxes, which they can not reclaim, the US Goverment gets Billions in taxes from migrant laborers which only benifit the citizens of the USA. Most migrants only wish to work in the US and then return home, they do not wish to imigrate, you all have biased notions perpetuated by the media and goverment. Getting a Visa into the US is not an easy process and a very expensive one. So for poor people it is easier to just cross the border and go work and then return home. And I understand Americans dont want undocumented migrants in your country, niether do we, we have the same problem in Mexico with Central Americans.

Telling us they want to steal income from our citizens by lying to take jobs they aren't entitled so they can take the proceeds of their ill gotten gains back to another country isn't a defense.

And don't try to sell us that misconception that the taxes that some illegal workers "pay" (only because it is deducted from their salary before they get their hands on it) offsets the expenses to this nation. It doesn't.

The media and the government don't control the perception that what they are doing is wrong.... the law dictates it.

The visa and immigration processes are difficult for a reason. Just because my neighbor leaves their back door open and taking groceries from their refrigerator is easier than going to the store and spending my own money to put food on the table doesn't make it right to simply walk in and take what I want.

Just because you want or even need something, doesn't make it right to steal or worse for it.

[iammyne]

Who the f*ck are you?

I don't give a f*ck why they came here. They didn't do it legally. Some may be perfectly nice people that want a better life, some may be MS 13 members. I don't care. They're all illegal. My "moral meter" works just fine. ****.

Dude, if you do not give a F**k why they came then you shouldn't give a F**k what they do, it goes both ways. As I said, illegal doesn't always mean criminal. Grow up, stop name calling & try balancing your argument like an adult...

[Irons]

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=1004825754

This has just happened in this thread. ;)

[Hollis]

Dude, if you do not give a F**k why they came then you shouldn't give a F**k what they do, it goes both ways. As I said, illegal doesn't always mean criminal. Grow up, stop name calling & try balancing your argument like an adult...


Did you loose your way on the internet express way?


If you get a opportunity, re-read the user agreement of this forum. BTW, you did agree to abide by it when you join. There are also a lot of suggestions, worth reading.

[Zoomie]

Dude, if you do not give a F**k why they came then you shouldn't give a F**k what they do, it goes both ways. As I said, illegal doesn't always mean criminal. Grow up, stop name calling & try balancing your argument like an adult...
Since you clearly don't know the definition of what criminal is, let me help you out, since you need it.



Criminal - 7 results
crim⋅i⋅nal

   /ˈkrɪmhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngəhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngnl/ [krim-uh-nl] –adjective 1. of the nature of or involving crime. 2. guilty of crime. 3. Law. of or pertaining to crime or its punishment: a criminal proceeding. 4. senseless; foolish: It's criminal to waste so much good food. 5. exorbitant; grossly overpriced: They charge absolutely criminal prices.
–noun 6. a person guilty or convicted of a crime.

Synonyms:
1. felonious, unlawful. See illegal. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=illegal&db=luna) 6. malefactor, evildoer, transgressor, culprit, felon, crook, hoodlum, gangster.

[Hot Lips]

Dude, if you do not give a F**k why they came then you shouldn't give a F**k what they do, it goes both ways. As I said, illegal doesn't always mean criminal. Grow up, stop name calling & try balancing your argument like an adult...

Actually it doesn't go both way, he can "not care why they came here" and still "care what they do while they are here" BECAUSE THEY SHOULDN'T BE HERE.

And you didn't say "doesn't always mean", you said "but not criminal" as if the only thing they did wrong was waltz across an invisible line on the ground. A lot of lies, false records, etc go into living here illegally.

His argument is as balanced as it needs to be. They are here illegally. Period.

[iammyne]

I keep on saying this, but people whom are in US illegally are of that status purely at their own fault - INS grants everybody temporary legal status as soon as any application is received and until the decision is rendered... Most overused emotion evoking deportation cases are the parents deported while their US born children stay in the country are the examples of how little these people do for their status - "Ancor Child" case is a single form that any do-it-yourself lawyer will fill out for fifty bucks, so I don't see how people that don't do the basic effort for their own sake can get any sympathy or blame the system...

My family have gone the guest visa immigration approach - at no point in the process did we become "illegal" even if we didn't have ze papers...

You are right, people illegally are at their own fault, but for many the alternative is even worse and this is not a decision out of choice but out of survival. If all it requires is a simple 'Anchor Child' then there would be lot less drama. No doubt that Anchor child visa works in short term, but in the long run, the illegal resident parent of the child gets kicked out. That's why we have parents being deported who have teenage kids. One of the solutions is to bar this law which will make the parents difficult to abandon their infant child.

Also Guest visa is not as easy for most nationals and from you name you appear to be an European. Guest visa program for most South American, African & Asian origins immigrants is as hard as applying a immigrant visa.

[Irons]

Life is a zero sum game eventually; for somebody to win, several others have to lose. That's the nature of this ball of dirt. I take care of me and mine. The Mexicans can fend for themselves. Sad, sure, but I'm not losing any sleep. Anything more is just jerkin' yourself off IMHO.

[iammyne]

Actually it doesn't go both way, he can "not care why they came here" and still "care what they do while they are here" BECAUSE THEY SHOULDN'T BE HERE.

And you didn't say "doesn't always mean", you said "but not criminal" as if the only thing they did wrong was waltz across an invisible line on the ground. A lot of lies, false records, etc go into living here illegally.

His argument is as balanced as it needs to be. They are here illegally. Period.

"illegal" was the only balanced part of the argument, period

[iammyne]

Since you clearly don't know the definition of what criminal is, let me help you out, since you need it.

Why don't we call them as 'Criminal immigrants' instead of 'illegal immigrants'...

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Lolz @ Joe

I feel sorry for these immigrants. However due to the scale of the problem in the US tough action needs to be done.

1. Severely punish employers who use illegal immigrant labour. They are only increasing the demand for such workers who not only take local jobs but also undermine the wages and conditions of local workers.

2. Mandatory sentencing of 12 months of all illegals who enter and who donot apply for or are refused asylum. IE huge difference in an illegal from Mexico and an illegal from Syria

3. Introduce 12 month working holiday visas

[iammyne]

Did you loose your way on the internet express way?


If you get a opportunity, re-read the user agreement of this forum. BTW, you did agree to abide by it when you join. There are also a lot of suggestions, worth reading.

Please check your mailbox.

[Hot Lips]

"illegal" was the only balanced part of the argument, period

And that's the bottom line. "Illegal". All the other excuses won't erase that.

[iammyne]

And that's the bottom line. "Illegal". All the other excuses won't erase that.

They won't and shouldn't be erased, but that doesn't entail a blank check towards their treatment as well.

[Irons]

Why don't we call them as 'Criminal immigrants' instead of 'illegal immigrants'...

I call them "Invaders." p-)

[VansRV]

Jesus f*cking Christ Ordie, they're illegal. Look the f*cking word up. They aren't friendly puppies that followed you home, they aren't model citizens, they are in this country illegally. They are criminals. I don't care why they are here. They shouldn't be.

That article wouldn't happen to be a little biased would it?

Ordie is a voice of reason around here, until it comes to illegal immigrants.

[iammyne]

Prove it.
.

Under current IRS system, immigrants can only claim state benefits once they pay taxes for 40 quarters, which translates to 10 years minimum. Many of the foreigners who came to US on a job visa(h-1, l-1, b-1, f-1) can at most stay for 7 years(not exactly sure) but definitely less then 10 years.

[HollywoodMarine]

Dude, if you do not give a F**k why they came then you shouldn't give a F**k what they do, it goes both ways. As I said, illegal doesn't always mean criminal. Grow up, stop name calling & try balancing your argument like an adult...
Illegal: Prohibited by law.

Arguing with California Joe who has LEO experience, and not knowing the definition if "illegal." Boy do you sound retarded.

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww38/coolsaber57/STFU.gif

[iammyne]

Illegal: Prohibited by law.

Arguing with California Joe who has LEO experience, and not knowing the definition if "illegal." Boy do you sound retarded.

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww38/coolsaber57/STFU.gif

Thanks for the observation....

[Irons]

This whole thread is priceless. Thanks "iammyne." It's like watching a scene in an old western, when the drifter realizes that: "This town...this is not my kind of town!" LMAO.

[LineDoggie]

They are illegal, unlawful but not criminal. Loosen up Joe, they did not come to rape your women or kill your child but to earn a decent livelihood for them and their family and to lead their life in dignity, you got a skewed up moral meter. If 'model citizen' is the token of standard to live in a society I believe you would have been locked up behind as well.
Their very act of Coming here Illegally indeed makes them criminals sparky, and the Crimes that are committed by some are usually swept away by Immigration advocates

il·le·gal

adjective Definition: 1. against law: contravening a specific law, especially a criminal law

2. against rules: not allowed by the rules of something such as a game

3. not permitted by computer: not permitted in a computer program



noun (plural il·le·gals)Definition: illegal immigrant: somebody who has entered a country illegally


http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/dictionary/bullet.gifhttp://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifil·le·gal·ly adverb
Word Key: Synonymshttp://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifhttp://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifhttp://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifSee unlawful.

[iammyne]

This whole thread is priceless. Thanks "iammyne." It's like watching a scene in an old western, when the drifter realizes that: "This town...this is not my kind of town!" LMAO.


I realize that, sad I do not have a time machine to go back. Glad somebody has some sense of humor about this....

[HollywoodMarine]

And I understand Americans dont want undocumented migrants in your country, niether do we, we have the same problem in Mexico with Central Americans.
I've known that for years... un país de hipócritas (a country of hypocrites).

[iammyne]

Their very act of Coming here Illegally indeed makes them criminals sparky, and the Crimes that are committed by some are usually swept away by Immigration advocates

il·le·gal

adjective Definition: 1. against law: contravening a specific law, especially a criminal law

2. against rules: not allowed by the rules of something such as a game

3. not permitted by computer: not permitted in a computer program



noun (plural il·le·gals)Definition: illegal immigrant: somebody who has entered a country illegally


http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/dictionary/bullet.gifhttp://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifil·le·gal·ly adverb
Word Key: Synonymshttp://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifhttp://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifhttp://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifSee unlawful.

Oopsie....you are a bit late on this. I already got this memo last page.

[Hot Lips]

I realize that, sad I do not have a time machine to go back. Glad somebody has some sense of humor about this....

There really isn't anything funny nor endearing about 11+ million people violating our immigration, employment, IRS, and other laws at the expense of our citizens.

[Irons]

Time Machine? What have you been smoking? This is the reality of the majority. It's here everyday, regardless of what your TV Box might have you believe. You're in for a shock once you leave your bubble.

[iammyne]

Time Machine? What have you been smoking? This is the reality of the majority. It's here everyday, regardless of what your TV Box might have you believe. You're in for a shock once you leave your bubble.

I meant time machine to go back to the first page, not ages and what is the reality that you are talking about? I do not need a TV box to formulate my views and opinions. You are talking as if you known me from adam...what shock & bubble? whats your point?

[Rapier55]

migrants who do not cross legally and work in the USA, pay taxes, which they can not reclaim, the US Goverment gets Billions in taxes from migrant laborers which only benifit the citizens of the USA.
Have you seen our county hospitals? Using ER's as their primary care. Public schools? Public safety? The roads we drive on? Hardly benefiting only citizens of the USA...

[Irons]

My point is, stop shovelin'. You're not getting anywhere.

[LineDoggie]

Have you seen our county hospitals? Using ER's as their primary care. Public schools? Public safety? The roads we drive on? Hardly benefiting only citizens of the USA...

Quoted for Truth.


As well hope like hell you never get into an Auto accident with an Unlicensed, Uninsured, Illegal Alien who proceeds to run away from the scene.

[Zoomie]

Under current IRS system, immigrants can only claim state benefits once they pay taxes for 40 quarters, which translates to 10 years minimum. Many of the foreigners who came to US on a job visa(h-1, l-1, b-1, f-1) can at most stay for 7 years(not exactly sure) but definitely less then 10 years.
I'm still waiting for you to prove your audacious claims.

[Dominique]

migrants who do not cross legally and work in the USA, pay taxes, which they can not reclaim, the US Goverment gets Billions in taxes from migrant laborers which only benifit the citizens of the USA. Most migrants only wish to work in the US and then return home, they do not wish to imigrate, you all have biased notions perpetuated by the media and goverment. Getting a Visa into the US is not an easy process and a very expensive one. So for poor people it is easier to just cross the border and go work and then return home. And I understand Americans dont want undocumented migrants in your country, niether do we, we have the same problem in Mexico with Central Americans.

Just because someone pays taxes doesn't mean jack. I know of may drug dealers, pimps, and thieves that pay taxes, but that doesn't mean that if I've got a warrant for them, they're not going to jail.

I completely understand someone wanting to come to the US, and better their lives, but as I've repeatedly stated, I want them to do it LEGALLY. What's so hard to understand about that. Yes it's hard to get in, and I do think we could allow more workers to come in, but until that happens people need to respect the laws of the county they're trying to move to.

And as far as the treatment of detainees goes, I've worked at two separate jails that housed detainees for INS, and now ICE. While their activities are restricted, they get feed three times a day, have access to phones, TV, medical care, etc. While they may not like it, the easy way to avoid ending up in that situation to begin with, was not a) sneak across the border like a common criminal b) lie about your immigration/student/work visa, etc. You commit a crime (sneaking into the US, or staying after you're supposed to leave), you don't go to jail. They're no different than guys who get busted for stealing or selling drugs saying, I just wanted to make money and support my family.

[iammyne]

I'm still waiting for you to prove your audacious claims.


The Welfare Reform Law in mid 90's effectively barred immigrants from receiving many of the public benefits. The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act restricted immigrants access to Health care, insurance, food care, receiving funds like assistance for needed families, medicaid and supplementary security income. There are a few papers that have been published on this and I provided you with name of the laws where you can find the detailed reports. On the other hand, you can also grab an immigrant(legal) who is on a non resident visa and can get the tax structure explained easily.

[Zoomie]

The Welfare Reform Law in mid 90's effectively barred immigrants from receiving many of the public benefits. The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act restricted immigrants access to Health care, insurance, food care, receiving funds like assistance for needed families, medicaid and supplementary security income. There are a few papers that have been published on this and I provided you with name of the laws where you can find the detailed reports. On the other hand, you can also grab an immigrant(legal) who is on a non resident visa and can get the tax structure explained easily.
roflDo you even live in America?

[iammyne]

roflDo you even live in America?

Did you get your question answered?

[Irons]

Somebody's gonna' get the sh*t raped out of 'em at the #6 dance. (said with glee, btw) p-)

[Zoomie]

Did you get your question answered?
Seeing as you tap dance around my questions, I'll take that as a no, you don't live in America.

[Hot Lips]

Did you get your question answered?

I believe he meant to prove the statement...


the US Goverment gets Billions in taxes from (illegal) migrant laborers

[iammyne]

I believe he meant to prove the statement...


HL, I did not make nor am I responding to the below statement

"the US Goverment gets Billions in taxes from (illegal) migrant laborers"

I was trying to provide some information regarding the below statement made by a member, for which I provided enough info to make a headstart.

"migrants who do not cross legally and work in the USA, pay taxes, which they can not reclaim, the US Goverment gets Billions in taxes from migrant laborers which only benifit the citizens of the USA."

[Zoomie]

HL, I did not make nor am I responding to the below statement

"the US Goverment gets Billions in taxes from (illegal) migrant laborers"

I was trying to provide some information regarding the below statement made by a member, for which I provided enough info to make a headstart.

"migrants who do not cross legally and work in the USA, pay taxes, which they can not reclaim, the US Goverment gets Billions in taxes from migrant laborers which only benifit the citizens of the USA."
You can't even keep track of who said what anymore. . .:cantbeli:

[iammyne]

Seeing as you tap dance around my questions, I'll take that as a no, you don't live in America.

Your question to me was to prove that "migrants who do not cross legallyt and work in the USA, pay taxes, which they can not reclaim" and I pointed specif laws which answered your question. Do not expect me to spoonfed you while you laze around for answers. If you cannot make the minimum effort to known more about the question than that's your problem and there's no need for me to answer about my personal details.

[Ordie]

I really don't care how one is apprehended, as long as the accused is given a speedy trial, due process and a fair hearing.

As per this AP report, there are Constitutional violations involved.

[Dominique]

As far as illegal immigrants paying taxes goes, of course they pay some taxes (any time they buy anything they pay sales tax, if they use gas, they pay gas taxes, etc.), but that doesn't excuse them from having to abide by the laws of the county they're residing in. And what does them paying taxes have to do with them coming here illegally?

[Zoomie]

Your question to me was to prove that "migrants who do not cross legallyt and work in the USA, pay taxes, which they can not reclaim" and I pointed specif laws which answered your question. Do not expect me to spoonfed you while you laze around for answers. If you cannot make the minimum effort to known more about the question than that's your problem and there's no need for me to answer about my personal details.

So, let me get this straight - your alternate account is rOjOdogg (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=63767)? Because, that's to whom I said prove it.

[Dominique]

I really don't care how one is apprehended, as long as the accused is given a speedy trial, due process and a fair hearing.

As per this AP report, there are Constitutional violations involved.

Ordie, as I've stated previously, the vast majority of these guys are treated fairly, what the news story does is cherry pick isolated incidents, as most stories of these type tend to do, and try to make it look like there's some sort of systematic abuse going on. And that's BS. If they're being mistreated, then the people responsible should be punished for abusing the detainees in their custody, if guys are being held for extreme periods of time, then they the government needs to either hire additional investigators, deport them faster, or figure out if they can be allowed to stay. That doesn't mean you stop arresting people who are here illegally.

[Hot Lips]

HL, I did not make nor am I responding to the below statement

"the US Goverment gets Billions in taxes from (illegal) migrant laborers"

I was trying to provide some information regarding the below statement made by a member, for which I provided enough info to make a headstart.

"migrants who do not cross legally and work in the USA, pay taxes, which they can not reclaim, the US Goverment gets Billions in taxes from migrant laborers which only benifit the citizens of the USA."


I can't believe I have explain this.

Do not cross legally = illegal
the US Goverment gets Billions in taxes from migrant laborers = the US Goverment gets Billions in taxes from migrant laborers

HL, I did not make nor am I responding to the below statement

That's exactly what you responded to.


Your question to me was to prove that "migrants who do not....

No he didn't ask you.

1a] I didn't say you said it.
1b] rOjOdogg did[link (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3996641#post3996641)].
2] Zoomie challenged him to Prove it [link (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3996658&postcount=13)].
3] And in your eagerness to make excuses you responded [link (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3996774&postcount=31)].

[iammyne]

So, let me get this straight - your alternate account is rOjOdogg (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=63767)? Because, that's to whom I said prove it.

Well done Inspector Clouseau.....

[Zoomie]

Well done Inspector Clouseau.....
Quoting your comment, just in case you decide to do a last minute edit. . .

*hears the whistling of the ban hammer*

[iammyne]

I can't believe I have explain this.

Do not cross legally = illegal
the US Goverment gets Billions in taxes from migrant laborers = the US Goverment gets Billions in taxes from migrant laborers


That's exactly what you responded to.



No he didn't ask you.

1a] I didn't say you said it.
1b] rOjOdogg did[link (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3996641#post3996641)].
2] Zoomie challenged him to Prove it [link (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3996658&postcount=13)].
3] And in your eagerness to make excuses you responded [link (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3996774&postcount=31)].


Quote:
Originally Posted by rOjOdogg http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3996641#post3996641)
migrants who do not cross legally and work in the USA, pay taxes, which they can not reclaim, the US Goverment gets Billions in taxes from migrant laborers which only benifit the citizens of the USA.

Prove it.



Zoomie responded to dogg by asking him to prove his claim and I responded to Zoomie's 'Prove it' by providing some info which I knew. So, what was the excuse I was making here?

[iammyne]

Quoting your comment, just in case you decide to do a last minute edit. . .

*hears the whistling of the ban hammer*

You put a question to a members claim, for which I had an answer and I posted it and then you claim that I have dual id, then I make a little joke on it and then you quote it for ban...

Looks like the gist of the thread...

[Hot Lips]

iammyne, you've lost all credibility at this point in the thread. You can't keep track of your own statements.




Looks like the gist of the thread...

Clearly you don't.

[Irons]

I'll gladly offer up my name for banishment, so long as he gets banned too. Take one for the team, etc, f*ck it. p-)

[iammyne]

iammyne, you've lost all credibility at this point in the thread. You can't keep track of your own statements.





Clearly you don't.

I am able to keep track of my statements, but you are not.

[Lazy Lob]

They won't and shouldn't be erased, but that doesn't entail a blank check towards their treatment as well.

Can you please define "blank cheque" in this case.

[Ordie]

I am able to keep track of my statements, but you are not.

iammyne,

Hot Lips is one of the best debators on this forum.
Her and I were at it for days awhile back...She has a mind of a Jesuit (its a compliment).

good luck

[Hot Lips]

I am able to keep track of my statements, but you are not.

It's actually mildly comical to think you believe the things you write.

If you are mentally challenged in any way please say something now. I'll feel bad if you tell us later.

[iammyne]

iammyne,

Hot Lips is one of the best debators on this forum.
Her and I were at it for days awhile back...She has a mind of a Jesuit (its a compliment).

good luck


Ordie,

I do not mean any disrespect towards her or any other member and nor am I posting just for the sake of it. I agree, I was a bit tactless in my first couple of posts and I apologize. But I do not get this He said, She said cycle that we have here.

[Irons]

Give him an out. Make a convert to truth and light say's I. He wants it. Welcome to the fold; stand your ground; defend your country.

[Hollis]

HL, give me a word, when your tired of iammyne.................


iammyne, If I was you, I would get off line then lurk before posting again. Your credibility is zero and your stay here may be zero.

[Zoomie]

But I do not get this He said, She said cycle that we have here.
Okay. . . . http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/9284/popcornf.gif

[Hot Lips]

Word............ ;)

[iammyne]

Can you please define "blank cheque" in this case.

I was referring to the lengthy incarceration rates without habeas corpus.

[Irons]

Take the "out." I'm off.

[rOjOdogg]

Jesus Christ will all of you calm down! Yes I live outside of the United States of America, Yes I have lived in the United States of America with out getting a Green Card. You dont need one when you are a member of the United States Army! My father is a proud son of Texas as I am his son that makes me American too. Can I prove my points, give me some time to do the research please. I have lived in Southern California, Central California and Northern Califronia, Arizona, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas and Michigan. I know more about Mexican citizens than you all do. For your information the Second most populus (sp) city for mexicanos is Los Angels California. Latinos out number all other races in California. No one likes to see migrants locked up for 6 months to a year. I agree with you guys they should get papers and cross legally, I did. But this thread is about the length of time they are being incarserated contrary to US Laws. The right to a speedy trial is for everyone, why they are not deported is stupid, here in Tijuana we have buses everyday returning the migrants. I am pro-america but a human first, maybe you should try to be the same please. Mexico treats american citizen very well and repatriates those who run afowl of the law in a very speedy manner.

I understand this is a hot issue, but please try to be civilized guys. Gracias!

Illegal Immigrants are Paying a Lot More Taxes Than You Think

Eight million illegals pay Social Security, Medicare, and income taxes

http://www.reason.org/images/74ff372b69282ab9b6277bf61ab39405.jpg Shikha Dalmia (http://www.reason.org/experts/show/689.html)
May 1, 2006

Denying public services to people who pay their taxes is an affront to America's bedrock belief in fairness. But many "pull-up-the-drawbridge" politicians want to do just that when it comes to illegal immigrants.
The fact that illegal immigrants pay taxes at all will come as news to many Americans. A stunning two-thirds of illegal immigrants pay Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes. Yet, nativists like Congressman Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., have popularized the notion that illegal aliens are a colossal drain on the nation's hospitals, schools and welfare programs — consuming services that they don't pay for.
In reality, the 1996 welfare reform bill disqualified illegal immigrants from nearly all means-tested government programs including food stamps, housing assistance, Medicaid and Medicare-funded hospitalization. The only services that illegals can still get are emergency medical care and K-12 education.
Nevertheless, Tancredo and his ilk pushed a bill through the House criminalizing all aid to illegal aliens — even private acts of charity by priests, nurses and social workers. Potentially, any soup kitchen that offers so much as a free lunch to an illegal could face up to five years in prison and seizure of assets.
The Senate bill that recently collapsed would have tempered these draconian measures against private aid. But no one — Democrat or Republican — seems to oppose the idea of withholding public services. Earlier this year, Congress passed a law that requires everyone who gets Medicaid — the government-funded health care program for the poor — to offer proof of U.S. citizenship so we can avoid "theft of these benefits by illegal aliens," as Rep. Charlie Norwood, R-Ga., puts it.
But, immigrants aren't flocking to the United States to mooch off the government. According to a study by the Urban Institute, the 1996 welfare reform effort dramatically reduced the use of welfare by undocumented immigrant households, exactly as intended. And another vital thing happened in 1996: the Internal Revenue Service began issuing identification numbers to enable illegal immigrants who don't have Social Security numbers to file taxes.
One might have imagined that those fearing deportation or confronting the prospect of paying for their safety net through their own meager wages would take a pass on the IRS' scheme. Not so. Close to 8 million of the 12 million or so illegal aliens in the country today file personal income taxes using these numbers, contributing billions to federal coffers. No doubt they hope that this will one day help them acquire legal status — a plaintive expression of their desire to play by the rules and come out of the shadows.
What's more, aliens who are not self-employed have Social Security and Medicare taxes automatically withheld from their paychecks. Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they'll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for. Last year, the revenues from these fake numbers — that the Social Security administration stashes in the "earnings suspense file" — added up to 10 percent of the Social Security surplus. The file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year.
Beyond federal taxes, all illegals automatically pay state sales taxes that contribute toward the upkeep of public facilities such as roads that they use, and property taxes through their rent that contribute toward the schooling of their children. The non-partisan National Research Council found that when the taxes paid by the children of low-skilled immigrant families � most of whom are illegal — are factored in, they contribute on average $80,000 more to federal coffers than they consume.
Yes, many illegal migrants impose a strain on border communities on whose doorstep they first arrive, broke and unemployed. To solve this problem equitably, these communities ought to receive the surplus taxes that federal government collects from immigrants. But the real reason border communities are strained is the lack of a guest worker program. Such a program would match willing workers with willing employers in advance so that they wouldn't be stuck for long periods where they disembark while searching for jobs.
The cost of undocumented aliens is an issue that immigrant bashers have created to whip up indignation against people they don't want here in the first place. With the Senate having just returned from yet another vacation and promising to revisit the stalled immigration bill, politicians ought to set the record straight: Illegals are not milking the government. If anything, it is the other way around.
Shikha Dalmia is a senior analyst at Reason Foundation, a free-market think tank. This column was originally distributed by the Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service.

[rOjOdogg]

More info for you guys: VISTA – The clusters of working families that spilled out from Marisela Ornelas' small office waited as patiently as any American filing income taxes at the last minute. Yet most did not belong to this country.
"They're all illegal," Ornelas said.
Lured by word-of-mouth and by Spanish-language ads in newspapers and on the radio, hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants across the nation have walked into tax preparers' offices to report their income.
The immigrants have been able to file since 1996 when the IRS started issuing special tax numbers for people living and working illegally in this country. Experts say the 8 million to 11 million illegal immigrants in the United States contribute untold billions each year in payroll taxes.
Many said they had a new reason to report their taxes: a hope that some day the government will reward them with some form of immigration clemency, a hope highlighted by President Bush's proposed guest worker program.
"I'm doing it for my son. In the future, maybe we can fix our papers," said Guillermo Suarez, 25, of San Marcos, who waited in line recently to file while his 4-year-old son, William, played with checkers nearby.
Preparing rax returns

28 hrs., 30 min.
Estimated time to finish a typical return with itemized deductions and interest income, capital gains and dividends. 3 hrs., 43 min.
Estimated time to complete a 1040EZ tax return.
$2,090
Average tax refund as of Friday. $1,988 last year

AUDITS

1 in 94
Chance of being audited if your adjusted gross income is $100,000 or higher.
1 in 164
Chance of being audited if your adjusted gross income is less than $100,000.
9 million
"Nonaudit contacts" in which the IRS sends notices to filers over issues of underreporting or math errors.

ELECTRONIC FILING

11.8 million
Taxpayers using computers to file taxes without the help of tax professionals. Up 19.6 percent from last year

FILING LATE

9 million
Extension requests expected to be received by the IRS this year. Contact the IRS for an automatic four-month extension (Form 4868).
Taxpayers who filed in 2002 can call a hotline for extensions at 1 (888) 796-1074 or apply at www.irs.gov.
Apply to the IRS for an installment payment plan (Form 9465) to break down what you owe into more manageable monthly payments, though you will have to pay a fee, interest and a possible penalty.
SOURCES: ASSOCIATED PRESS, BLOOMBERG, CBS MARKETWATCH, UNION-TRIBUNE
Suarez, a painter, said he did not file because of his expected $700 to $1,000 refund.
"I'm just doing it to be OK with the government," he said.
While some immigrants admitted they filed for the refund and others wanted to claim tax credits for children and spouses living outside the United States, many were thinking long-term this year.
"This is one thing they can do right," Ornelas said of her clients, 80 percent of whom file using a taxpayer number.
To help people like Suarez file taxes legitimately, the Internal Revenue Service created the nine-digit Individual Taxpayer Identification Number, or ITIN (****ounced eye-tin). People who don't qualify for a Social Security number, such as undocumented immigrants, cannot file their taxes without it.
More than 7.4 million immigrants have been issued the taxpayer numbers since 1996 – more than a million each of the past three years – and "in all likelihood the number of Forms 1040 with ITINs will increase," according to a Treasury Department report released in January.
Tax preparers who serve predominantly Spanish-speaking clients in San Diego County advertised the taxpayer numbers as a way to gain acceptance in this country.
"The best thing an immigrant can do is file his taxes from the moment he is here" to show they are good citizens and avoid getting fined, said Ornelas, who has been a tax preparer in Vista for nearly 20 years. "This paper is like gold," she said as she held up a tax return filed recently with a taxpayer number.
Ornelas said she keeps the tax returns for clients, hoping to help them apply for visas or U.S. residency some day.
Post offices
with extended hours

Several post office branches will offer retail services until 5 p.m. and collection service until 10 p.m.: Chula Vista post office, 750 Third Ave.
El Cajon post office, 401 W. Lexington
Escondido post office, 1157 W. Mission Ave.
Oceanside post office, 1895 Avenida Del Oro. (No collection available at Oceanside's Brooks Street Station.)
San Diego main office, 2535 Midway Drive, will be open until midnight.
Although lawmakers appear to be putting the guest worker program on the back burner, some immigrant families say that filing using the taxpayer numbers will help them with other immigration programs by establishing that they have been living, working and paying taxes in the United States.
The taxpayer number is intended only to allow illegal immigrants to pay their taxes. The IRS cannot share the information with other agencies. The Social Security Administration, for example, cannot use the IRS information to help stop fraudulent use of Social Security numbers.
Because the taxpayer numbers cannot be used to get a job, many of the tax returns filed with the numbers come attached with W-2 employer forms showing a fake or fraudulent Social Security number.
Also, the Department of Homeland Security's immigration arm is not allowed access to the numbers to identify undocumented workers and help control illegal immigration.
Some Treasury Department recommendations to the IRS into include broadening the use of IRS data among federal agencies.
Local tax preparers with Latino clients say that will never fly.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040415/images/taxchart.gif
"I tell my clients it's a rumor that the government will have them monitored if they file their taxes," tax preparer Gustavo Munguia of Vista said. "If it were true, no one would do their taxes."
Munguia said the number of his clients who use taxpayer numbers grew at least 20 percent this year.
A General Accounting Office report released last month highlighted other weaknesses with the ITINs, which are formatted like a Social Security number: XXX-XX-XXXX. It said an ITIN can be obtained by submitting fake documents through the mail and then used for things that would normally require a Social Security number.
The IRS acknowledges that that the numbers were being used for unintended purposes such as opening bank accounts, applying for driver licenses and renting apartments.
The agency also knows that taxpayer numbers weren't always being used to file taxes, though IRS officials say nearly three-quarters of taxpayer numbers issued have shown up on tax returns.
In December, the IRS made some changes to get more people to report their taxes. It began giving the numbers only to people who planned to use them to file.
The IRS also changed the format of the taxpayer identification number document. It used to come as an identification card but is now a letter embedded with the word "VOID," which appears on any copies made of it, essentially nullifying its use for anything but taxes.
"That's OK," said Andres Dominguez, 58, of Oceanside, a fieldworker recently disabled by a back injury. "I just want to do my taxes."
Dominguez rode a bus to Vista and waited to report his income, all of it paid in cash. He said he hopes to one day reunite with his wife who has lived in Mexico for 14 years.
"What I care about is that I'm OK with the government," Dominguez said. "Maybe that way they will help me with my family."

[Dominique]

As I keep asking, what does them paying taxes have to do with them being her illegally? I know, not a damn thing.

[rOjOdogg]

And hopefully the last I have to post about this:

Middle Tennessee State’s Ford, who has studied taxes and immigration, says a majority of economists agree that illegal immigrants are a net benefit for the U.S. economy.
More on this story

More using tax refunds to pay bills, reduce debt (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24051148/)
Tardy taxpayers may get late rebates (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24051754/)
Tax tips for procrastinators (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23997403/)


He said the tax contributions from illegal immigrants, including sales taxes, property taxes and excise taxes (such as the gas tax), are significant.
He calculates that illegal immigrants contributed $428 billion dollars to the nation's $13.6 trillion gross domestic product in 2006. That number assumes illegal immigrants are 30 percent less productive than other workers.
"If anything we need more immigrants coming into the country, not less, especially with the baby boomers retiring," he said.

[Dominique]

"If anything we need more immigrants coming into the country, not less, especially with the baby boomers retiring," he said.

More legal immigrants, or more illegal immigrants, there's a difference in the two.

[Hot Lips]

As I keep asking, what does them paying taxes have to do with them being here illegally? I know, not a damn thing.

Apparently, if I use your credit card (take a job intended for a citizen) to withdraw $300 (salary), but have a $80 fee (tax) automatically deducted before I have a chance to take it too. It's OK for me to take the remaining $220. It doesn't matter that the card (job) wasn't mine to take. I "paid" the fee for the money I took and that's really all that matters.

But your credit card company is wrong to not let me also cash in on the rewards program points (benefits) I clearly earned when I made a purchase of $220.

:roll:

It's really your fault. You left your card laying around. I needed it. Therefore it was OK for me to take it.

[Ordie]

I'm in favor of more taxpayers.

[ren0312]

I'm in favor of more taxpayers.

The US has replacement rate fertility level, so even if you hypothetically have a 0 net migration rate then the popualtion will still be maintanied at the present level, and as for more labor, theoretically, you can just replace labor for capital, like a production function.

[Hot Lips]

I'm in favor of more taxpayers.

You are in luck. New immigrants apply to legally enter the country every day.

[ren0312]

You are in luck. New immigrants apply to legally enter the country every day.

Legal immigrants are at about 400,000 per year, while the amount of illegals that enter per year are estimated to be around 1.5 million per year.

[AroundTheCorner]

Some how I understand the illegal aliens. It really takes forever to get a greencard, and jumping over the fence is just way faster than waiting and paying alot of money for a piece paper that you need to work one of those underpaid jobs.

But in some other factors, I'm against illegal aliens.

[Hot Lips]

Legal immigrants are at about 400,000 per year, while the amount of illegals that enter per year are estimated to be around 1.5 million per year.

Your point? 400,000 legal immigrants are still potential additional taxpayers to be added to our citizenry. And more worthy of our trust than 1.5 million illegals.

[Hot Lips]

Some how I understand the illegal aliens. It really takes forever to get a greencard, and jumping over the fence is just way faster than waiting and paying alot of money for a piece paper that you need to work one of those underpaid jobs.

True enough. Breaking a jewlery store window and taking a ring is faster than putting one on lay away too.


Know why so many of the jobs they take are underpaid? In part, because they are willing to come to this country and undermine employment laws that we fought for to protect the interests of our legal workforce.

[Hot Lips]

Ordie I'm sure you are busy drafting some profound excuse as to why we should turn a blind eye or embrace law breakers because you think it's the best thing "for us", but it's late and I'm going to bed.

You can pretty much guess my response.

[junglejim]

Some how I understand the illegal aliens. It really takes forever to get a greencard, and jumping over the fence is just way faster than waiting and paying alot of money for a piece paper that you need to work one of those underpaid jobs.

But in some other factors, I'm against illegal aliens.

As part of a family who went through the system legally, F*&k illegal immigrants. Did you ever think the reason why its so hard and far to long to do it legally, is because of the illegals?

I'm pretty sure immigration back then was far easier than now because of the flood of people going to the US.

[AroundTheCorner]

As part of a family who went through the system legally, F*&k illegal immigrants. Did you ever think the reason why its so hard and far to long to do it legally, is because of the illegals?

I'm pretty sure immigration back then was far easier than now because of the flood of people going to the US.


That's kind of what I was trying to say. Look at me as an example. Legal immigrant with greencard and all that other stuff. And I'm on the good way to become a US citizen. :)

[ren0312]

True enough. Breaking a jewlery store window and taking a ring is faster than putting one on lay away too.


Know why so many of the jobs they take are underpaid? In part, because they are willing to come to this country and undermine employment laws that we fought for to protect the interests of our legal workforce.

The reason why the US became such an industrial power in the 19th century is because of the cheap labor provided by the masses of immigrants from Europe, and work conditions that are by today's standards just unnaceptable.

[junglejim]

The reason why the US became such an industrial power in the 19th century is because of the cheap labor provided by the masses of immigrants from Europe, and work conditions that are by today's standards just unnaceptable.

I dont think thats a good comparison, since at that time nobody in the world knew better.

[loganinkosovo]

They are here ILLEGALLY.

They broke our Laws to be here.

That makes them CRIMINALS.

The Only Right they have is to get the Hell out of our Country and Come back in the Right Way.

End of Story.

[junglejim]

I would have no sympathy for them since they actually have it easier as an illegal immigrant than the legal immigrants. The years of waiting not knowing if you get accepted or sent back. The lawyers fees, the sharks that take advantage of the law an try to milk you for money, the exhorbitant lawyers fee. Being a teenager and opening you mailbox and seeing a letter from the INS to your family (I shat bricks everytime we got one). Making plans for your life on a yearly basis because you never really know if you will still be in the US the next year.

[PeterRJG]

I would have no sympathy for them since they actually have it easier as an illegal immigrant than the legal immigrants. The years of waiting not knowing if you get accepted or sent back. The lawyers fees, the sharks that take advantage of the law an try to milk you for money, the exhorbitant lawyers fee. Being a teenager and opening you mailbox and seeing a letter from the INS to your family (I shat bricks everytime we got one). Making plans for your life on a yearly basis because you never really know if you will still be in the US the next year.

No different than migrating to any other nation - they all have their rules. I went through INS myself (married to an American) and yes, it was a drawn-out process. The lawyer's fees weren't that excessive, and we could pay them off incrementally. In the end, I got a green card and life was peachy.

The US is comparatively an easier country to legally migrate to than some others in the OECD. My country, Australia, has fewer categories for immigration than the US. Plus, Australia doesn't hand out 50K green cards a year to whoever.

[Ordie]

Ordie I'm sure you are busy drafting some profound excuse as to why we should turn a blind eye or embrace law breakers because you think it's the best thing "for us", but it's late and I'm going to bed.

You can pretty much guess my response.

Nah...
Too busy
Poco trabajo...no dinero.

[junglejim]

No different than migrating to any other nation - they all have their rules. I went through INS myself (married to an American) and yes, it was a drawn-out process. The lawyer's fees weren't that excessive, and we could pay them off incrementally. In the end, I got a green card and life was peachy.

The US is comparatively an easier country to legally migrate to than some others in the OECD. My country, Australia, has fewer categories for immigration than the US. Plus, Australia doesn't hand out 50K green cards a year to whoever.


Yep marriage is the best way and fastest legal way of getting the card. Would be hard for a 12 years old though at that time.

[Jobu]

Illegal aliens face detention?


All together now, "awwwwwwwwww."

[MaverickCowboy]

EARN you citizenship, just like my parents, and everyone else ancestors here. This is BS.

[Fargin]

I'm concerned about the increasing willingness to apply double standarts when it comes to basic rights.

[Irons]

Me too. I broke into Mexico and asked for free basic services, in English, and some free Ranch Land, and they told me no. It's not Faaaaair, I tells ya!

[Dominique]

I'm concerned about the increasing willingness to apply double standarts when it comes to basic rights.

There is no double standard. Nowhere am I advocating abusing illegal immigrants, but I if they get caught, they get a trial, and deported. It's that simple. How are their rights being abused.

[Ordie]

EARN you citizenship, just like my parents, and everyone else ancestors here. This is BS.

By being born in the USA.

[Irons]

By being born in the USA.

If you were born here, legally, to parents that were here legally, then your ancestors payed the initial tab. You're just required to be productive and law-biding after that. That's every country, and not hard to swallow.

[BAJACAL]

If i had to feed my family and it was the only way, i would to the same damn thing. I wouldn't give a damn about the laws.. I'm not going to wait around for a damn green card... dont give me that "wait in line" and do it the "legal way."

[Irons]

If i had to feed my family and it was the only way, i would to the same damn thing. I wouldn't give a damn about the laws.. I'm not going to wait around for a damn green card... dont give me that "wait in line" and do it the "legal way."

Drug dealers just want to improve the quality of their life (from their point of view) and they break the law to do it. Same deal applies. Regardless of need/want, do the crime; do the time (or in this case, be deported). Survival is not a right. It's an opportunity. I guess if you can dodge the proverbial bullets, then you're "IN." But don't whine when you catch it in the teeth. You knew the deal.

[Hollis]

If i had to feed my family and it was the only way, i would to the same damn thing. I wouldn't give a damn about the laws.. I'm not going to wait around for a damn green card... dont give me that "wait in line" and do it the "legal way."


I didn't realize there was mass starvation in Mexico, I thought it was Darfur.

[BAJACAL]

i didn't realize there was mass starvation in mexico, i thought it was darfur.



I'm not pointing any country in particular, whether it be Mexico or Angola,etc. I'm just saying if i had to it to survive i would.

[California Joe]

Then why don't you illegally enter Somalia and become a pirate?

[BAJACAL]

Then why don't you illegally enter Somalia and become a pirate?


I got my point across, thanks.

[Irons]

I got my point across, thanks.

Your point is that if you thought you needed to, you would break the law? That's a show stopper right there. Stick a fork in it boys, this thread is done!

[rOjOdogg]

I didn't realize there was mass starvation in Mexico, I thought it was Darfur.

Due to the economic crysis caused by the greedy people on wallstreet, millions of mexican citizens can no longer afford to feed thier families, a kilo of tortillas jumped in price from 6pesos to 12 pesos, and the pesos value against the dollar went from 10 to 1 down to 15 to 1, so yes we are starving here too.


EARN you citizenship, just like my parents, and everyone else ancestors here. This is BS. like being born in the US, funny but my children were born in the US but my wife was not, that makes them special, duel citizens. Alot of children were born in the US but thier parents were not, so they have to live in another country due to the laws.

And for all of you that dont understand economics, without cheep undocumented labor the US would go no longer function, no food on the tables, no workers to cook and clean for you, all the jobs americans are to lazy or just find to demeaning to do are done by undocumented migrants, is this right, NO! But it is a fact of life. Who here is willing to work for under minimum wage, not me!

[rOjOdogg]

You are in luck. New immigrants apply to legally enter the country every day.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didnt all of the TERRORIST from 9-11 have legal documentation? They did all of the paperwork waited for the documentation and then came to the US to kill my countryman and yours. So its not about documentation!

[Irons]

BUUUUUUUUULSH*******T! The "Jobs Americans won't do" line is total BS. How do you think toilets got cleaned, or houses built, or Big Macs made before all this crap started? No, we did fine before, and also--especially with regards to the Construction Trade--wages were HIGHER! No, go sell that nonsense elsewhere dude. It's not going to fly.

[California Joe]

That makes sense. The 9/11 terrorists had visas so we'd rather not get them and just sneak across the border. Because we're just not that motivated.

[Hippie Homer]

Jesus f*cking Christ Ordie, they're illegal. Look the f*cking word up. They aren't friendly puppies that followed you home, they aren't model citizens, they are in this country illegally. They are criminals. I don't care why they are here. They shouldn't be.

That article wouldn't happen to be a little biased would it?

Geez, Think about homw much of a fool you seem. You know all those sh*tty crappy jobs that normal people like me and you don't do, they are doing it. To be f*ckin honest they are some of the people keeping America going, who would be doing all those sh*tty jobs that contribute to our society and help you stay alive, if they weren't here who would be doing it. Isn't America the lang of freedom. You can't blame them for sneaking in, they're looking for a better life for their children and are trying to avoid a screw over life. Your a perfect example of a bone head American that makes the rest of us look bad.

[Irons]

I've managed people, owned my own business, cleaned toilets, washed dishes, worked construction, worked for many a man and woman. A job is a job. I'm not above any of them, if that's what gets me a step ahead at that particular time, and I've got the sh*t under my fingernails to prove it. I don't think that most Americans are much different. The bottom line is: We don't "NEED" illegal invaders to do those jobs. We have plenty of our own to take care of it.

[California Joe]

F*ck you. Let me get this straight, I don't think it's right that people enter my country illegally for any reason, so I'm some xenophobic misanthrope? Because I do my own sh*tty jobs I'm not being philanthropic enough for you?

I'm sorry, is there a self check in kiosk at the border where you declare your intentions and reasons for sneaking into my country?

*For "Improve Quality of Life" Press 1*

*For "Do Sh*tty Jobs" Press 2*

*For "Fill the Ranks of MS 13" Press 3*

*For "Assuage Homers Guilt" Press 4*

[PeterRJG]

There is no double standard. Nowhere am I advocating abusing illegal immigrants, but I if they get caught, they get a trial, and deported. It's that simple. How are their rights being abused.

Why waste taxpayer's money with a trial? There's nothing to b tried for as such. Just walk their ass back over the border.

[Hippie Homer]

F*ck you. Let me get this straight, I don't think it's right that people enter my country illegally for any reason, so I'm some xenophobic misanthrope? Because I do my own sh*tty jobs I'm not being philanthropic enough for you?

I'm sorry, is there a self check in kiosk at the border where you declare your intentions and reasons for sneaking into my country?

*For "Improve Quality of Life" Press 1*

*For "Do Sh*tty Jobs" Press 2*

*For "Fill the Ranks of MS 13" Press 3*

*For "Assuage Homers Guilt" Press 4*

No, F*ck you, Redneck piece of sh*T. This isn't your f*ckin country, did you f*ckin buy it ?

Your acting like you weren't from somewhere else. Unless you are a f*ckin Native American you got no right claiming America as yours, you are the same as the illegal alien that came here for a better life. You don't automatically label someone as scum because a few decide to do ****. If you think they shouldn't be here, then get a job at the local fruit stall and start packing oranges and apples for $2 an hour so you can feed your 8 f*ckin kids. People like you don't know what its like to f*ckin suffer, you grow up with everything and don't have the feelings or thought for the lower. Grow up you 46 year old jack@$$.

[Aerosoul]

No, F*ck you, Redneck piece of sh*T. This isn't your f*ckin country, did you f*ckin buy it ?

Your acting like you weren't from somewhere else. Unless you are a f*ckin Native American you got no right claiming America as yours, you are the same as the illegal alien that came here for a better life. You don't automatically label someone as scum because a few decide to do ****. If you think they shouldn't be here, then get a job at the local fruit stall and start packing oranges and apples for $2 an hour so you can feed your 8 f*ckin kids. People like you don't know what its like to f*ckin suffer, you grow up with everything and don't have the feelings or thought for the lower. Grow up you 46 year old jack@$$.

roflroflroflrofl

[Bombtrack]

No, F*ck you, Redneck piece of sh*T. This isn't your f*ckin country, did you f*ckin buy it ?

Your acting like you weren't from somewhere else. Unless you are a f*ckin Native American you got no right claiming America as yours, you are the same as the illegal alien that came here for a better life. You don't automatically label someone as scum because a few decide to do ****. If you think they shouldn't be here, then get a job at the local fruit stall and start packing oranges and apples for $2 an hour so you can feed your 8 f*ckin kids. People like you don't know what its like to f*ckin suffer, you grow up with everything and don't have the feelings or thought for the lower. Grow up you 46 year old jack@$$.

U r dum

[Irons]

I'm a "Redneck." My family has been here since 1763. I've got the Capt'n Dan sh*t running through my family, and I've got the lawful blood, sweat, tears, and voting record to state: "This D*mn sure is MY country, bought and paid for in Blood." Watch who you call a "Redneck" unless it's just a joking jab, or a measure of respect. "Rednecks" are the backbone of this nation. I'm proud to be one. Oh, and I have a graduate degree too boot! God, people like you...

[California Joe]

No, F*ck you, Redneck piece of sh*T. This isn't your f*ckin country, did you f*ckin buy it ?

Your acting like you weren't from somewhere else. Unless you are a f*ckin Native American you got no right claiming America as yours, you are the same as the illegal alien that came here for a better life. You don't automatically label someone as scum because a few decide to do ****. If you think they shouldn't be here, then get a job at the local fruit stall and start packing oranges and apples for $2 an hour so you can feed your 8 f*ckin kids. People like you don't know what its like to f*ckin suffer, you grow up with everything and don't have the feelings or thought for the lower. Grow up you 46 year old jack@$$.

Now I'm Toby Keith apparently.

My Dad came here from Canada, legally.

I didn't label them scum. I said they were breaking my countries laws. It's as simple as that.

"so you can feed your 8 f*ckin kids." Who forced them to f*ck that much without protection? Much like the "Octomom", if you can't afford them, don't have them. That's what responsible adults do. Even responsible illegal aliens.

People like me? What the f*ck do you know about me or my background to make some retarded statement like that.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

My Dad came here from Canada, legally.



That's done the Empire and the US a great service. The average intelligence has increased for all concerned.

p-)

EDIT

I was actually looking for a anti-canadian poster. Ie No more canadian immigrants or something could not find one.

[Hot Lips]

By being born in the USA.

Times change. This should be legally changed to "being born to legal citizens of the United States".

[Bombtrack]

If you were born here, legally, to parents that were here legally, then your ancestors payed the initial tab. You're just required to be productive and law-biding after that. That's every country, and not hard to swallow.

Payed the initial tab eh? You think getting here was as hard as it is now?

My grandfather had to 1) afford a boat ticket and 2) not have a communicable disease.
And on my other side, they were unwillingly shipped here as soldiers and orphans.

Does that mean I have moral high ground over some illegal immigrants? I don't think so.

[LineDoggie]

No, F*ck you, Redneck piece of sh*T. This isn't your f*ckin country, did you f*ckin buy it ?

Your acting like you weren't from somewhere else. Unless you are a f*ckin Native American you got no right claiming America as yours, you are the same as the illegal alien that came here for a better life. You don't automatically label someone as scum because a few decide to do ****. If you think they shouldn't be here, then get a job at the local fruit stall and start packing oranges and apples for $2 an hour so you can feed your 8 f*ckin kids. People like you don't know what its like to f*ckin suffer, you grow up with everything and don't have the feelings or thought for the lower. Grow up you 46 year old jack@$$.

I never saw someone deliberately jump into a Shark infested water with a good luck ham tied to their neck before

Smooth move Eisenhower

And By The way, It is MY Country and His. And anyone Else who LEGALLY is a Citizen, Native Born or be they originally from China, Russia, Zimbabwe, or Mexico.....

But LEGALLY is the Operative word. You know Mexico doesnt exactly have a great track record with its Illegals that cross into Mexico from its Southern Border. Why they expect us to be different from their policy is beyond me.

[Irons]

@Bombtrack, It's not about "morals." It's about the Law De Jure. They are breaking the law, and regardless of what is done in the future, the one's here now are not going to be absolved by some ex-post-facto moral claim. I don't care how your ancestors got here. I care that they got here LEGALLY.

[ronnieraygun]

@Bombtrack, It's not about "morals." It's about the Law De Jure. They are breaking the law, and regardless of what is done in the future, the one's here are not going to be absolved by some ex-post-facto moral claim.

Before the economy went to hell in a handbasket, blanket amnesty was, in fact, on the table for those who could prove they were here before a certain time. You can bet no one is going to sell that idea in this economy. I'm so burnt out on NPR right now I listen a Spanish radio show for my morning yak-yak - a guy actually called in to Violin por la Manana asking if was true Obama was going to give amnesty to all illegals this morning.

[Hot Lips]

If i had to feed my family and it was the only way, i would to the same damn thing. I wouldn't give a damn about the laws.. I'm not going to wait around for a damn green card... dont give me that "wait in line" and do it the "legal way."

And that is why Mexico is F'd up. Too many think because they want something they are entitled to take it.

[PeterRJG]

@Bombtrack, It's not about "morals." It's about the Law De Jure. They are breaking the law, and regardless of what is done in the future, the one's here now are not going to be absolved by some ex-post-facto moral claim. I don't care how your ancestors got here. I care that they got here LEGALLY.

There's about 11 million illegal immigrants in the US. How do you go rounding them up and showing them to the border?

[Kap]

This thread is full of "WHEEEEN" +1 someone just fell off their rocker...

[Irons]

There's about 11 million illegal immigrants in the US. How do you go rounding them up and showing them to the border?

Well, Obama wants to create "Jobs." There's a Job. 10 Years worth of work to be done.

P.S. 11 Million my foot, double it!

[PeterRJG]

Well, Obama wants to create "Jobs." There's a Job.

P.S. 11 Million my foot, double it!

OK - 22 million. Well, wonder no longer why nobody's actively seeking them out and deporting them. The administrative costs involved to identity, apprehend and remove 22 million illegal people would probably bankrupt the US. Dare I say it, that's probably the numero uno reason why jack sh1t gets done about it.

[Hot Lips]

There's about 11 million illegal immigrants in the US. How do you go rounding them up and showing them to the border?

One at a time for as long as it takes.

[ronnieraygun]

OK - 22 million. Well, wonder no longer why nobody's actively seeking them out and deporting them. The administrative costs involved to identity, apprehend and remove 22 million illegal people would probably bankrupt the US. Dare I say it, that's probably the numero uno reason why jack sh1t gets done about it.

-That's something that bears repeating. I'm no LE guy, but think of your life when on top of everything you're supposed to be the local immigration enforcement agent for the feds and you're a local, county or state guy. It can't be done.

[Irons]

That's all political will and streamlining the procedure. I think it could be whittled down to this:

http://adamstreufert.com/AngryAmerican17_files/Boot.jpg

[Bombtrack]

What it comes down to for me is that you guys are right to be mad, but mad at the wrong people. Because our governments haven't done a better job of tightening border crossings, you can't blame the poor people that are exploiting it to live by lumping them in with violent criminals or drug dealers. Be mad at those in charge of the problem.

[PeterRJG]

One at a time for as long as it takes.

Sure. Hopefully for the US's sake, the one at a time is done fast enough to offset the hundred at a time that cross the Rio Grande.

[Ordie]

Times change. This should be legally changed to "being born to legal citizens of the United States".

Why? it would deny the politicians and political parties potential voters.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

OK - 22 million. Well, wonder no longer why nobody's actively seeking them out and deporting them. The administrative costs involved to identity, apprehend and remove 22 million illegal people would probably bankrupt the US. Dare I say it, that's probably the numero uno reason why jack sh1t gets done about it.

What do you mean would probably bankrupt?'

US already is

[Hot Lips]

Why? it would deny the politicians and political parties potential voters.

You're kidding right?

Whether we have 100 voters or 100,000,000 voters someone wins and someone loses either way. You have to be a citizen to vote.

I don't care about the votes of a dishonest/illegal population.

[Hot Lips]

Sure. Hopefully for the US's sake, the one at a time is done fast enough to offset the hundred at a time that cross the Rio Grande.

Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. As long as they don't get a free pass.

[Hot Lips]

you can't blame the poor people that are exploiting it to live by lumping them in with violent criminals or drug dealers. Be mad at those in charge of the problem.

Some of them are violent criminals and drug dealers. And if they don't want to be lumped in with criminals they can stop breaking our laws.

Yes we can be mad at them for BEING the problem. That doesn't mean I'm not also mad at the people that harbor them, hide them, etc.

I have empathy for our citizens that are charged with trying to make a corrupt populous take responsibility for their own willfully illegal actions.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

America needs islands in the Pacific that only survive because of it's aid.

[Nano]

Politicians already buy voters with their "free" healthcare, welfare retirement secured jobs, low taxes and of course they are forever inventors as a means of corruption. Both sides are trying to figure out how to attain that demographic that will assure their perpetual control and lording over us. The fact is the American people have sold out cheap and granting illegals amnesty has already been done. It frankly does not matter illegals are incapable of corrupting a system anymore as corrupt as ours is now.
We are to blame for the state of not just immigration, but the economy as such we best look inward for truth and the solution. Change will come, but it will come through trials and suffering beyond any that has been seen since the great depression. We either get it right this time around or continue to repeat history ad naseum.

[Ordie]

You're kidding right?

Whether we have 100 voters or 100,000,000 voters someone wins and someone loses either way. You have to be a citizen to vote.

As per the 14th amendment, citizenship is granted by birthright regardless of parental status.

[PeterRJG]

As per the 14th amendment, citizenship is granted by birthright regardless of parental status.

Something that needs to be fixed ASAP.

[Hot Lips]

As per the 14th amendment, citizenship is granted by birthright regardless of parental status.

And regardless of what you write, I don't think that is the way it should be moving forward.

[Ordie]

Something that needs to be fixed ASAP.

More laws and restrictions creates more law breakers.

[Zoomie]

More laws and restrictions creates more law breakers.
Wow. . .just wow. :roll: Those damn laws! Why should we keep them if people keep breaking them? :cantbeli:

[Hot Lips]

More laws and restrictions creates more law breakers.

Particulary if one has an inclination for breaking the law anyway.

[Irons]

Ordie and Clayton Williams are best friends. rofl

"Well, bad weather is like rape: if it's inevitable, you might as well relax and enjoy it."

[Ordie]

Particulary if one has an inclination for breaking the law anyway.

The same reason why people have the inclination of seeking simple solutions to complex issues without thinking about the consequences.

If you deny birthright, you deny more taxpayers, the higher the taxes, the less secure we become.

[Fargin]

Well I cannot contain the collective pain and suffering of the world. But I think it's ridiculous to make illegal immigrants the scource of the problem. They are entering Europe and USA, because there are someone willing profit from emplyoing them. In fact they are keeping jobs on American ground. By bypassing laborlaws, without benefits, they are actually competing with India, China and all the other countires that can quarantee a satisfying quality, without an expensive union interference.

Illegal immigrants is a great industry, just like slave trade were. The difference is, today they, themselves are leaving their families behind, voluntarily or not, handing their life savings to human smugglers, crossing deserts and open sea to feed families.

Because they are illegals, they have no rights. Because they have no rights, they are interesting for employers. And ironically when caught, they are continued to be treated as second rate people. Without bail and legal repsentation, they can be incarsorated indefinitely.

Criminalizing these ecomonical or starvation refugees fixes nothing, only pushing the problem towards a more extreme sollution.

[Irons]

They are already criminals. No need to "criminalize."

[Bombtrack]

That's all you have to say about what he wrote? Hell, this beer in my hand would make me a "criminal" in 1920. Would it make me a bad person too?

[Irons]

That's all you have to say about what he wrote? Hell, this beer in my hand would make me a "criminal" in 1920. Would it make me a bad person too?

In 1920 it would, but it's not 1920. Besides, your beer doesn't tax the hospital system, school system, or state budget to the limit of functionality. It also doesn't tear up private property, lower wage scales, or refuse to integrate. And it sure as hell doesn't run down the street with a Mexican Flag over it's head DEMANDING it's "RIGHTS" as a violator of our sovereign law. They have only one right, to GTFO!

[Ordie]

That's all you have to say about what he wrote? Hell, this beer in my hand would make me a "criminal" in 1920. Would it make me a bad person too?

Given how many laws we have in the books, I would not be shocked how many laws we break on a daliy basis.

I guess its job security for the lawyers, police and jailers.

"let he who is without sin, cast the first stone"
-Jesus of Nazareth

[Fargin]

Ok so now they are criminals.
We can't allow them bail.
If we deport them, they return.
Desperation and poverty increases.
Living conditions are deterioating because of climate changes.
Immigration will increase.
Jails are already full.
Incarceration is expencive.

The sollution is either increditable complex or terrifying simple.

[Hot Lips]

Same old crap, different post.

No sale, Ordie. You argue in favor of lies, cheating, corruption, etc.


It's like listening to a teenager try to bargain for privileges after they've knowingly broken the rules.


If you deny birthright, you deny more taxpayers, the higher the taxes, the less secure we become.

But we get their taxes already, remember? You know, because they are so honest and they pay what they owe and it offsets their expenses to this country? Right?


.

[Irons]

The solution is; create new jobs, give the violators the boot, build a wall, man it, and put the word out: "cross illegally, and that's your ass." There is nothing complex, or terrifying about that. It simple though, common sense simple, and fair. THIS is OUR sovereign nation. Respect that, and obey our laws, or you are history. Get it? Got it? Good! Now we can move on to more productive endeavors.

[Ordie]

The sollution is either increditable complex or terrifying simple.

Our immigration policy and laws are akin to our tax laws, very Byzantine, full of exceptions easy to fall through the cracks.

Very little of it has to do with the economic needs of the country at large and much of the policies are based on populist xenophobic reactionary sentiments of the times.

Its been this way since the foundation of our country with anti-Irish laws, Chinese exculsion acts, the internment of Japanese Americans etc....

And continues to be so...

The last president to make an honest effort to fix the policy was Ronald Reagan, but there was no follow up.

[Hot Lips]

I think it's ridiculous to make illegal immigrants the scource of the problem. They are entering Europe and USA, because there are someone willing profit from emplyoing them.

Of course, we make them the source of the problem. :roll:

News Flash:

Employer breaking our laws = guilty for his/her own actions
Illegal breaking our laws = guilty for his/her own actions

[shocker1]

Employer breaking our laws = guilty for his/her own actions
Illegal breaking our laws = guilty for his/her own actions
How very evil of you. That kind of thinking is akin to Japanese internment camps. You must be anti-Hispanic.

[Macs.]

Also what a coincidence that both the US and EU are experiencing large masses of illegal immigrants trying to enter the country from the South. In one case Mexicans/South-Americans, in the other Africans.

While it is still not as "bad" as in the case of the US, I could imagine that the influx of Africans who try to enter the EU will rise with the bad world economy. But unlike the US-Mexcio border crossing, the sea travel from Africa to the shores of the EU is very often a deadly journey.

[Dominique]

Why waste taxpayer's money with a trial? There's nothing to b tried for as such. Just walk their ass back over the border.

Because in certain cases, the law requires them to have a trial.

[Fargin]

Of course, we make them the source of the problem. :roll:

News Flash:

Employer breaking our laws = guilty for his/her own actions
Illegal breaking our laws = guilty for his/her own actions
Saying that the scource of illegal immigration, is illegal immigrants, does kind of make sense. :D



...not even for illegal entry or low-level crimes like trespassing.
Immigrants with no criminal convicted is still detainee.

[Dominique]

What it comes down to for me is that you guys are right to be mad, but mad at the wrong people. Because our governments haven't done a better job of tightening border crossings, you can't blame the poor people that are exploiting it to live by lumping them in with violent criminals or drug dealers. Be mad at those in charge of the problem.

By that reasoning, I can't blame the guy that steals a car if the owner hadn't left it unlocked, or the rapist who attacks a women late at night, after all she should have been at home at that time of night. That's asinine.

And I'm not saying that everyone here illegally is a violent offender, I am saying they're breaking our laws. If they want to come here and work, I've got no problem with it, as long as they do it legally. If not , why even bother to have immigration laws and borders to begin with? Disband ICE, CBP, etc. and let any, and everyone in.

We're a country of laws, and people need to respect them, or we end up with chaos. You want to come to the US, you fill out the paperwork and you wait. Yes, it's a long process, and yes it's frustrating, but if you really want something, no one's going to hand it to you on a silver platter.

As far as government responsibility goes, our government has done a piss poor job of border security and immigration reform for years. Namely because they want lots of cheap labor, and they don't want to spend money. I'm all for securing our borders and for controlling who gets in, but I'm also for increasing the number of people who can immigrate here legally. You just adjust the numbers to allow the communities they're settling in to be able to absorb them into the local economy and school system. But, the feds don't won't to have to fork over the loot it would take to actually secure the border, hire inspectors, investigators, and conduct background checks to get rid of some of the immigration backlog they currently have on the books. They also don't want to foot the bill for helping the various states with programs to help integrate the various immigrant groups that come here. You can bet your ass that if you ask Congress for a billion to purchase a new bomber, odds are you'll get it, but ask foe money for an English as a second language class, they'll look at you like you've got a third eye growing out of your head.

And as far as Mexico is concern, until they start allowing illegals immigrants to poor across their southern border, come up with a way to improve their economy, and do more to improve the basic standard of living for their citizens, they can basically kiss out a$$.

[Dominique]

Something that needs to be fixed ASAP.

Actually, no it shouldn't. The system works as it was intended, lets not go tinkering with it, if it works.

[Fargin]

And as far as Mexico is concern, until they start allowing illegals immigrants to poor across their southern border, come up with a way to improve their economy, and do more to improve the basic standard of living for their citizens, they can basically kiss out a$$.
Mexico does in fact have illegal immigrants pooring across their southern border. I don't think the majority of illegal immigrants are mexicans, but rather people using Mexico as a gateway to US.

[Dominique]

That's all you have to say about what he wrote? Hell, this beer in my hand would make me a "criminal" in 1920. Would it make me a bad person too?

While it might not make you a bad person, you'd be no different than the guy that's like, "Hey it's only a bag of weed, who's it going to hurt?" You'd have been contributing to the growth of organized crime, the guys that were running alcohol into the US at that time, and generally causing all sorts of problems for law enforcement.

[Henry's Fork]

Also what a coincidence that both the US and EU are experiencing large masses of illegal immigrants trying to enter the country from the South. In one case Mexicans/South-Americans, in the other Africans.

While it is still not as "bad" as in the case of the US, I could imagine that the influx of Africans who try to enter the EU will rise with the bad world economy. But unlike the US-Mexcio border crossing, the sea travel from Africa to the shores of the EU is very often a deadly journey.

Actually, there are parts of the desert along the border that alot illegals die in every year, due to running out of water and other nasties.


I am all for Obama making 100,000 new border guard jobs to help the economy and keep the border secure.

Heck, im looking for a new job, sign me up for border guard academy or training! And i know a few more chaps who just lost their jobs and would be on board as well. Who doesnt want a government job?!?

[Dominique]

Mexico does in fact have illegal immigrants to poor across their southern border. I don't think the majority of illegal immigrants are mexicans, but rather people using Mexico as a gateway to US.

I know they've got illegal immigrants pouring in, they're shipping them back, or locking them up just as fast as tehy can catch them, but they're bitching about the US doing the same thing. And unlike the US, they don't exactly treat the ones they catch well.

Actually I've seen a pretty good mix of illegals, the majority I've run into tend to come from Central America or Mexico, the next big group is usually from the Caribbean, then Eastern Europe, then East Asia/Asia.

[Dominique]

Actually, there are parts of the desert along the border that alot illegals die in every year, due to running out of water and other nasties.


I am all for Obama making 100,000 new border guard jobs to help the economy and keep the border secure.

Heck, im looking for a new job, sign me up for border guard academy or training! And i know a few more chaps who just lost their jobs and would be on board as well. Who doesnt want a government job?!?

Actually the BP, CBP, and ICE are all hiring. But, BP can't keep up with it's turn over rate, it's loosing people just as fast as it hires them. People get burned out after a few years, or discover a career in law enforcement isn't all they thought it would be.

[Alfacentori]

At the end of the day it comes down to a question of territorial sovereignty. Everyone knows that immigration is important, indeed for some countries, i.e. Australia, its vital to maintain population levels and stimulate economic growth. But any state has a right determine who enters its territory and who becomes a citizen, its a basic tenament of international law.
Just because someone makes it into a country doesnt give them citizen or squatters rights, a state is defined as having a set territory, permanent population, organised government and the legitimate use of force within that territory.

Alfa

[szr]

But unlike the US-Mexcio border crossing, the sea travel from Africa to the shores of the EU is very often a deadly journey.Thousands have died attempting to cross the US-Mexico border illegally.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/1170/180pxnovalelapena1257a7.jpg (http://img22.imageshack.us/my.php?image=180pxnovalelapena1257a7.jpg)

Border Patrol sign in California warning "Caution! Do not expose your life to the elements. It's not worth it!"

GAO-06-770 Illegal Immigration: Border-Crossing Deaths Have Doubled Since 1995; Border Patrol's Efforts to Prevent Deaths Have Not Been Fully Evaluated. (http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-06-770)

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9712/border200129aa696.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/my.php?image=border200129aa696.jpg)
The overflow at the morgue in Pima County, Ariz., holds the bodies of 60 immigrants who died crossing the Arizona desert this year.

October 6, 2005 ·

A record-setting 464 illegal immigrants have died this year trying to cross the U.S.-Mexico border. Cities along the border pay high costs, storing bodies and conducting autopsies before they can be either buried or shipped back to Mexico or Central America.http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4948382 (Full audio story at link)

[Henry's Fork]

Actually the BP, CBP, and ICE are all hiring. But, BP can't keep up with it's turn over rate, it's loosing people just as fast as it hires them. People get burned out after a few years, or discover a career in law enforcement isn't all they thought it would be.

Didnt know that, thanks for the heads up.

I wonder if the whole FUBAR system that run the border scene, like trying to sweep the tide back with only a gov issue push broom and one arm tied behind your back, is the main culprit of burn out? Futility does affect morale.

[PeterRJG]

Because in certain cases, the law requires them to have a trial.

Let's talk about non-certain cases then. You know, the 90% who have entered the country either illegally, or overstayed/misrepresented their visa class. They've committed no other crime than to violate immigration law. In these self-evident cases, they merely need to be escorted to the border.

In theory - and how it should be in practice.

[Dominique]

Let's talk about non-certain cases then. You know, the 90% who have entered the country either illegally, or overstayed/misrepresented their visa class. They've committed no other crime than to violate immigration law. In these self-evident cases, they merely need to be escorted to the border.

In theory - and how it should be in practice.

As I said, in cases where the law requires that they be given a trial, they should get one. If not, escort them to the border, or have DEO fly them back where they came from. One little side note I'm not sure may of you are aware of, if a person stows away on a ship or aircraft, and makes it here, the company that owns the craft is responsible for ensuring that they make it back to their country of origin. Not the feds.

[PeterRJG]

Actually, no it shouldn't. The system works as it was intended, lets not go tinkering with it, if it works.

What's the logic behind jus solis ctizienship to kids born to illegal immigrants?

[Dominique]

What's the logic behind jus solis ctizienship to kids born to illegal immigrants?

If he kids meet the legal requirements for citizenship, there's no need to punish them because their parents committed a crime.

[ronnieraygun]

But unlike the US-Mexcio border crossing, the sea travel from Africa to the shores of the EU is very often a deadly journey.

I have been to some of the southern Spanish towns where it's like that and the local patrol picks up cold black bodies on the beaches that fell off some small boat every morning.

Just be aware that the border crossing in the US is every bit as dangerous as you could imagine. Smugglers, drug runners, poisonous snakes, arroyos that you have to follow that flood with short notice, dehydration, ranchers that don't want you around, border cops, etc. The sad part is the amount of people who die crossing the border each year will never be known, but it's not anything to dismiss.

[Ordie]

If he kids meet the legal requirements for citizenship, there's no need to punish them because their parents committed a crime.

Plus its impossible to enforce, track and create a new underclass of individuals in limbo.

[rOjOdogg]

At the end of the day it comes down to a question of territorial sovereignty. Everyone knows that immigration is important, indeed for some countries, i.e. Australia, its vital to maintain population levels and stimulate economic growth. But any state has a right determine who enters its territory and who becomes a citizen, its a basic tenament of international law.
Just because someone makes it into a country doesnt give them citizen or squatters rights, a state is defined as having a set territory, permanent population, organised government and the legitimate use of force within that territory.

Alfa

Funny that you mention that, for most Mexicanos still believe that The USA stole most of Mexicos territory, The fact that almost all of the western states were part of Mexico should be the first clue. Texas was an break-away republic of Mexicans and Europeans, which later joined the USA.

"We don't "NEED" illegal invaders" Since when did migrants become invaders?

The truth is there is no simple solution, Mexico secures its borders in the south, but they still get in, The US secures its borders but they still get in, When the goverment enforces its laws about hiring undocumented workers, then the migrants will stop comming. But this thread was about the condition of those incarserated awaiting repatriation to thier countries.

[Dominique]

Funny that you mention that, for most Mexicanos still believe that The USA stole most of Mexicos territory, The fact that almost all of the western states were part of Mexico should be the first clue. Texas was an break-away republic of Mexicans and Europeans, which later joined the USA.

And at one point, the US "belonged" to several European powers, but what the hell does that have to do with anything in this thread?


When the goverment enforces its laws about hiring undocumented workers, then the migrants will stop comming.

DING, DING, DING, we have a winner. When the government makes it very painful for companies to hire illegals, they'll stop hiring them. With no job prospects, people will stop pouring in illegally. But that's not going to happen, because to many companies would cry to Uncle Sugar about actually having to pay a living wage, and how expensive it is to follow all these "silly" labor laws.

[ronnieraygun]

^^LOL @ Uncle Sugar.

All this sanctimonious talk about breaking laws - thanks for pointing out what a nudge-nudge wink-wink this is for so many employers, especially in food service, agribusiness and construction. "Gee, we really don't want those Mexicans here!" then suddenly your bottom line looks a hell of a lot better. It is kind of uniquely American. "See this big house here? Shame on you, you thought you could actually have that?" "See all this *** here? Oh, you can't do that." "We're rugged individualists! Oh, we need more money for Johnny's school and we just made it through last year by some obscure subsidy and we'll get more by not planting in the last 20 acres." "Oh! Illegal immigrants! That's so terrible! I just saved a bunch of money by hiring some guy that can't speak English and has funny papers." Manufactured outrage over something that anyone should see is purely full of **** in the first place. The immigration discussion needs more honesty, not less. Looking at it purely from a law enforcement perspective (oh those beaner lawbreakers) won't fix it and does not answer why it is a problematic issue in the first place.

As far as thinking the west and southwest are Mexican land, I've had it up to here with that horse****. History is history and if Mexico had it, it would be a corrupt wasteland full of a few landowners and a bunch of dead Indians. Just like it was when Mexico owned it.

[Hot Lips]

If he kids meet the legal requirements for citizenship, there's no need to punish them because their parents committed a crime.Unfortunately, despite the laws original intent, no one could forsee that such a large volume of illegals would knowingly abuse this law (like so many others) in an attempt to avoid deportation if caught.If it is punishment to send a child home with his/her illegal parents, that is a punishment that was willfully imposed upon them by their dishonest parents. Parents who knowingly bring a child into the world that they can't afford and inject them in the middle of a situation that could only serve to foster a pension for thinking the law shouldn't apply to them and if they want something they should just be able to take it, after all Mom and Dad did.

[ren0312]

And at one point, the US "belonged" to several European powers, but what the hell does that have to do with anything in this thread?



DING, DING, DING, we have a winner. When the government makes it very painful for companies to hire illegals, they'll stop hiring them. With no job prospects, people will stop pouring in illegally. But that's not going to happen, because to many companies would cry to Uncle Sugar about actually having to pay a living wage, and how expensive it is to follow all these "silly" labor laws.

Cheap labor from Irish immigrants may actually have caused the Civil War to start 1 to 2 decades sooner indrectly, without the surplus population provided by Irish immigrants, and the cheap labor they were able to provide to Union munitions factories, the Union may not have had the advantage in manpower and arms that they felt gave them enough seperiority over the South in terms of arms and manpower to win the war in a matter of months. Immigration to the US only started to really pick up in 1830-1840.

[ren0312]

^^LOL @ Uncle Sugar.

All this sanctimonious talk about breaking laws - thanks for pointing out what a nudge-nudge wink-wink this is for so many employers, especially in food service, agribusiness and construction. "Gee, we really don't want those Mexicans here!" then suddenly your bottom line looks a hell of a lot better. It is kind of uniquely American. "See this big house here? Shame on you, you thought you could actually have that?" "See all this *** here? Oh, you can't do that." "We're rugged individualists! Oh, we need more money for Johnny's school and we just made it through last year by some obscure subsidy and we'll get more by not planting in the last 20 acres." "Oh! Illegal immigrants! That's so terrible! I just saved a bunch of money by hiring some guy that can't speak English and has funny papers." Manufactured outrage over something that anyone should see is purely full of **** in the first place. The immigration discussion needs more honesty, not less. Looking at it purely from a law enforcement perspective (oh those beaner lawbreakers) won't fix it and does not answer why it is a problematic issue in the first place.

As far as thinking the west and southwest are Mexican land, I've had it up to here with that horse****. History is history and if Mexico had it, it would be a corrupt wasteland full of a few landowners and a bunch of dead Indians. Just like it was when Mexico owned it.

Frankly the Southwest as it is is overpopulated, the Colorado River basin is overtaxed, and could use a few million less people. Do not know how applicable it is to the US, but Japan got around its labor supply problems due to slowing population growth in the 1970's by just shifting its labor intensive industries such as textiles offshore, and concentrated on capital intensive industries such as automobile manufacturing, which are easier to mechanize (Japan has the world's highest number of industrial robots) and is less labor intensive.

[ronnieraygun]

Frankly the Southwest as it is is overpopulated, the Colorado River basin is overtaxed, and could use a few million less people.

This economy will take care of that. You can buy some cheap cinder block in Las Vegas right about now. Now, we'll get to see lots of people moving to Milwaukee or Fargo, ND - the land of opportunity. p-)

[Dominique]

Unfortunately, despite the laws original intent, no one could forsee that such a large volume of illegals would knowingly abuse this law (like so many others) in an attempt to avoid deportation if caught.If it is punishment to send a child home with his/her illegal parents, that is a punishment that was willfully imposed upon them by their dishonest parents. Parents who knowingly bring a child into the world that they can't afford and inject them in the middle of a situation that could only serve to foster a pension for thinking the law shouldn't apply to them and if they want something they should just be able to take it, after all Mom and Dad did.

HP, I've got no problem with sending the kids back home with their parents, but I'm not going to strip them of their citizenship. When the kid turns 18, if he wants to move back to the US, he can.

[Irons]

You're d*mn right we stole it! Stole it by kicking the Mexican's a*s! Just like the Mexicans did from the Indians, and the Indians did from other Indians. What of it? That's the way of the world.

The question is not what you steal, but what you hang on to. The United States developed the land, and I'd venture to guess we'll be hanging on to it. If we aren't, then it's not going to be without one hell of a fight, and since Mexico can't even quell some drug dealers in their own backyard, I don't think they've got the chops to take on the United States just about now.

All that "I didn't cross the border, the border crossed me" crapola is funny as hell. Most of them are from CENTRAL AMERICA tribally speaking. The Indians that were here...the Mexicans, and the Americans KILLED THEM ALL. Their DEAD. The land is ours, by right of might. End of story.

[ren0312]

This economy will take care of that. You can buy some cheap cinder block in Las Vegas right about now. Now, we'll get to see lots of people moving to Milwaukee or Fargo, ND - the land of opportunity. p-)

What does Wells Fargo have to do with Fargo, by the way Fargo is a town in the middle of nowhere right?

[ren0312]

You're d*mn right we stole it! Stole it by kicking the Mexican's a*s! Just like the Mexicans did from the Indians, and the Indians did from other Indians. What of it? That's the way of the world.

The question is not what you steal, but what you hang on to. The United States developed the land, and I'd venture to guess we'll be hanging on to it. If we aren't, then it's not going to be without one hell of a fight, and since Mexico can't even quell some drug dealers in their own backyard, I don't think they've got the chops to take on the United States just about now.

All that "I didn't cross the border, the border crossed me" crapola is funny as hell. Most of them are from CENTRAL AMERICA tribally speaking. The Indians that were here...the Mexicans, and the Americans KILLED THEM ALL. Their DEAD. The land is ours, by right of might. End of story.

You probably know that most Mexicans have some Indian ancestry themselves right?

[Irons]

You probably know that most Mexicans have some Indian ancestry themselves right?


So do I, what's your point? I'm an American though, not a Mexican. Besides, "Indian," what kind? It wasn't a homogeneous group of people. Apache's killed Aztecs, Aztecs warred with Navajo's, etc. etc.

[rOjOdogg]

The last I checked Mexicans are americans, we are also North Americans, and we live in the Estados Unidos de Mexicanos, (United States of Mexicans), saying that we are decended from the very same people, europeans just like the majority of you. So why do you want to classify us as something other than yourselves?

And HISTORY is just that, HIS Story.

[Irons]

The last I checked Mexicans are americans, we are also North Americans, and we live in the Estados Unidos de Mexicanos, (United States of Mexicans), saying that we are decended from the very same people, europeans just like the majority of you. So why do you want to classify us as something other than yourselves?

And HISTORY is just that, HIS Story.

"American" is an abbreviation of "Citizen of the United States of AMERICA." Cut the "me too" semantics, or include the term AMERICA in Mexico's charter title. So far as "me" and "you," goes, we are citizens of SEPERATE sovereign nations. My concerns and alligence is for MY people...AMERICANS. I'm in this for me and mine. You're welcome to do the same. However, since Mexico is not dealing with rampant illegal crossings by Americans, it's pretty one sided. We built this country into a prosperous nation, and a lot of Mexicans, instead of doing the hard work in their own nation, want to come up here, and state that they have a right to what WE have built. It's bull, and it's lazy, and it's the easy way out. If they don't have opportunity in their own land, then they've got work to do...DOWN THERE.

[ren0312]

"American" is an abbreviation of "Citizen of the United States of AMERICA." Cut the "me too" semantics, or include the term AMERICA in Mexico's charter title. So far as "me" and "you," goes, we are citizens of SEPERATE sovereign nations. My concerns and alligence is for MY people...AMERICANS. I'm in this for me and mine. You're welcome to do the same. However, since Mexico is not dealing with rampant illegal crossings by Americans, it's pretty one sided.

So the stoned and drunk teens in Cancun and Tijuana do not count as undesirable aliens?p-)

[Irons]

So the stoned and drunk teens in Cancun and Tijuana do not count as undesirable aliens?p-)

Uh, no, they are tourists that entered the country for a week to spend money, legally. You're stoned and drunk right now aren't you. p-)

[rOjOdogg]

"American" is an abbreviation of "Citizen of the United States of AMERICA." Cut the "me too" semantics, or include the term AMERICA in Mexico's charter title. So far as "me" and "you," goes, we are citizens of SEPERATE sovereign nations. My concerns and alligence is for MY people...AMERICANS. I'm in this for me and mine. You're welcome to do the same. However, since Mexico is not dealing with rampant illegal crossings by Americans, it's pretty one sided. We built this country into a prosperous nation, and a lot of Mexicans, instead of doing the hard work in their own nation, want to come up here, and state that they have a right to what WE have built. It's bull, and it's lazy, and it's the easy way out. If they don't have opportunity in their own land, then they've got work to do...DOWN THERE.

Wow you sure assume alot dont you, what makes you think I am any less american than you?

[Dominique]

So the stoned and drunk teens in Cancun and Tijuana do not count as undesirable aliens?p-)

If they're breaking the law in Mexico, lock their drunk/high asses up. I'm of the opinion that if you go to a foreign country, and break the law, you get what you get.

[BAJACAL]

if they don't have opportunity in their own land, then they've got work to do...down there.

if they don't have the opportunity in their land they can seek elsewhere, simple as that, like it or not.

[Irons]

If they're breaking the law in Mexico, lock their drunk/high asses up. I'm of the opinion that if you go to a foreign country, and break the law, you get what you get.

I'll go with this. Get out of line, have too much of a good time, do the time. Behave thy self at all times.

[junglejim]

if they don't have the opportunity in their land they can seek elsewhere, simple as that, like it or not.


If they dont do it legally, they can also rot in jail. So really theres nothing to discuss

[Irons]

if they don't have the opportunity in their land they can seek elsewhere, simple as that, like it or not.

The Border Patrol, US Law, and an increasingly vocal US Public say's you're wrong. This is an ongoing issue, and it's only just now beginning to get straightened out. So to answer your statement..."not" and it's going to get dealt with.

[Irons]

Wow you sure assume alot dont you, what makes you think I am any less american than you?

Are you? If so, then you've got a funny way of showing it.

[Dominique]

if they don't have the opportunity in their land they can seek elsewhere, simple as that, like it or not.

As I've said, I don't have a problem with people LEGALLY immigrating to the US to seek employment, go to school, and generally try to make a better life for themselves, and/or their families. That's not the issue, the problem is when they sneak in, or lie about why they're coming here. You show a blatant disregard for our laws, and then you want us to let you stay, that's not happening. If you did what you were supposed to do, like get a green card, and don't cause any problems, I'm more than happy to help you out in any way I can. You're here illegally, you get sent back, period.

[BAJACAL]

if they dont do it legally, they can also rot in jail. So really theres nothing to discuss


well that is the risk associated with it, not arguing that. Im pretty sure they know if they get caught they're done. Venture at your own risk,, we all know that.

[rOjOdogg]

Are you? If so, then you've got a funny way of showing it.
And by that what do you mean? I am probably more american than you, who knows, what is your definition of american?

[Irons]

Legal, US Citizen, Law-Biding, Tax Paying, Support your country above all others. More American than me huh? My fam's been here since 1763, none are criminals, all pay taxes, fought in every major war, mostly been Farmers, Lawyers, Judges, Educators, Policemen, Soldiers, and private Businessmen. Above all else, it always has been, and always will be America First! You?

[rOjOdogg]

Wow impresive, My family goes back alittle farther but thats not what matters, I too am american, legal, tax paying, I support my country, I servved with pride in the Army, built and repaired AirCraft and Helos, Naval ships, my family has served in the major wars, sounds like we are more alike than apart.

[Hot Lips]

well that is the risk associated with it, not arguing that. Im pretty sure they know if they get caught they're done. Venture at your own risk,, we all know that.

While you like to spout "I'll do what I have to" as if it's some badge of honor that you're willing to break the law with little regret, that is in essence the stance of the American people in general. This is our country. Our nation fought for what we have including fighting to overcoming our own past mistakes, and to establish the employment laws that protect our wages, benefits, etc. Only we're talking about enforcing the law.... not breaking it, because we have 11+ million criminals thinking it's OK to just waltz in and undermine all our progress because "they have to feed their kids".

WELL DON'T HAVE KIDS YOU CAN'T AFFORD IN THE FIRST PLACE.

And if their work ethic is so wonderful they should apply themselves and make their own nation a better place. Or would that be too much work?

Then there is that gem of an argument "we came to this country illegally, falsified employment, bank, IRS, school, and other records, etc because we were tired of the corruption in our country. We're innocent". Hello! :roll:

[Hot Lips]

Wow impresive, My family goes back alittle farther but thats not what matters, I too am american, legal, tax paying, I support my country, I servved with pride in the Army, built and repaired AirCraft and Helos, Naval ships, my family has served in the major wars, sounds like we are more alike than apart.

Except you seem to be the one arguing for 11+ million criminals that violated our national borders and immigration laws and commit crimes here on a daily basis that impact our citizens.

[Irons]

Wow impresive, My family goes back alittle farther but thats not what matters, I too am american, legal, tax paying, I support my country, I servved with pride in the Army, built and repaired AirCraft and Helos, Naval ships, my family has served in the major wars, sounds like we are more alike than apart.


I have to correct something there. My family wasn't in the Revolutionary War. We were Spaniards then (we've always been Texans), but we were at San Jacinto with Houston. I guess I owe you personally an apologie. I'm sorry. It still doesn't change my feelings about the way my country is being treated by Mexico. I see those invasion buses running up I-35 night and day, and it makes my blood boil.

[BAJACAL]

except you seem to be the one arguing for 11+ million criminals that violated our national borders and immigration laws and commit crimes here on a daily basis that impact our citizens.


we all have different viewpoints. So what.. You can expect everybody to agree with you, nor do i expect the same.

[BAJACAL]

i see those invasion buses running up i-35 night and day, and it makes my blood boil.


that bad? So do you have hatred for mexicans?

[junglejim]

that bad? So do you have hatred for mexicans?


Oh god, are you trying to turn this thing into a racial issue?:cantbeli:

[Irons]

Hatred for the Mexicans? Hmm, only the ones that break my nations laws, take advantage of our hospitality, services, teachers, nurses, doctors, police, and then sh*t all over the place with their trash, crime, gaudy houses, refusal to learn English, and then strap every piece of junk they can find to their new Trucks and go back home to roast a goat. So far as it being a racial issue, well, that would be hard to achieve for me.

[BAJACAL]

oh god, are you trying to turn this thing into a racial issue?:cantbeli:

not at all, mexican is not a race

[junglejim]

not at all, mexican is not a race

But usually that path leads to that conclusion.

[rOjOdogg]

As much as we would all like to solve the imagracion problem, I was shocked to find this report.

Illegal immigration into the United States is a highly profitable proposition for both employers and the U.S. government, and it also benefits Mexico, which is the largest source country of undocumented immigrants into the US. The US and Mexican governments actively entice illegal immigrants to enter this country and to work illegally for profit-hungry U.S. employers. Poverty-stricken immigrants , who are often desperate to house and feed their families, respond to the financial enticements...and then are blamed by U.S. citizenry for illegally being in the US.
The purpose of this 4-part article is to explain why the US federal government can't afford and doesn't soon plan to to end illegal immigration.
Part 1 - United States Borders Are Barely Enforced
Ten million illegal immigrants live in the US, according to estimates by academic and government agencies, although Bear-Stearns investment firm analysts claim that the US illegal immigrant population "may be as high as 20 million people."
About 75% of undocumented immigrants arrive across the US southern border with Mexico, and hail from Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, Colombia and other Central and South American countries. The bulk...about 50% of all illegals....are Mexican-born people.
Time magazine stated in 2004 that illegal immigration accelerated under the Bush Administration, with the US gaining 3 million additional illegal immigrant residents in 2004. A third of all illegal immigrants in the US live in California. Other states with large illegal populations are, in descending order, Texas, New York, Illinois, Florida and Arizona.
After more than 100 years in existence, President Bush dissolved the US Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS)in March 2003 and absorbed it into the new Homeland Security Department, along with FEMA and dozens of other federal agencies created to help citizens and residents.
Until its dissolution, the INS had been part of the Justice Department since 1940, and before that, part of the US Labor Department. After the September 11, 2001 tragedy, the Bush Administration complained that the INS was insufficiently focused on deporting and expelling illegal immigrants, and thus asked that it be transferred to Homeland Security.
The US Border Patrol is charged with the responsibility of enforcing illegal immigration across US borders. Until 2003, the Border Patrol was part of the INS, but was also folded into Homeland Security (as a separate agency from INS).
The massive US intelligence agencies overhaul passed by Congress and signed by President Bush in January 2005 required Homeland Security to hire 10,000 more Border Patrol agents, 2,000 per year starting immediately. The Border Patrol currently employs 9,500 agents who patrol 8,000 miles of border.
But Bush Administration ignored the law mandating the hiring of new agents. Said Congressman John Culberson (R-TX) to CNN's Lou Dobbs, "Unfortunately, the White House ignored the law, and only asked us for 200 more agents. That's unacceptable." Culberson was referring to the federal budget for 2006 in which President Bush provided funds for only 210 new agents, not 2,000 additional agents.
Both houses of Congress worked together twice in 2005 to bypass the White House, and hire 1,500 new Border Patrol agents......500 shy of that required by law, but far surpassing the mere 210 planned by President Bush.
The US-Mexico border remains significantly under-patrolled. On October 7, 2005, 80 members of the House of Representatives sent a letter to the President, calling on him to enforce immigration laws, and deferring consideration of the White House's proposed guest-worker immigration program. "History has shown that enforcement provisions are ignored and underfunded..." said the Congressional letter.
Meanwhile, Congressman Culberson told CNN's Lou Dobbs on October 7, 2005, "We've got a full-scale war going on our southern border. You don't need to go to Iraq to see a war. We've got widespread lawlessness...We need boots on the ground...ASAP."
Part 2 - Widespread Poverty and Hunger in Mexico
According to the World Bank, 53% of Mexico' population of 104 million residents live in poverty, which is defined as living on less than $2 a day. Close to 24% of Mexico's population live in extreme poverty, which means they live on less than $1 a day.
The bottom 40% of Mexican households share less than 11% of the country's wealth. Millions live in extreme poverty,and children are compelled to work on the streets in order to help provide food for their families.
Unemployment in Mexico is realistically estimated near 40%, and there are no government unemployment benefits. There are also virtually no welfare benefits to provide the basics for poverty-stricken, often-starving women, children and families.


Prev
YOu can read the whole report here.

http://usliberals.about.com/od/immigration/a/IllegalImmi.htm

[Irons]

Come on man, you don't think most people are not WELL aware of these things? It's THE reason why I want Mexico, and her problems as far away from me and mine as possible. The stuff on the US side must be dealt with as well, but it would be easier to shove the illegals out first, then deal with the other stuff. It's not pretty. I know. But it is the most realistic thing to do. I know Mexico, and that's why I don't want any part of it up here.

[LineDoggie]

I have Hatred for Illegals be they from Mexico, China, Ireland, or the Moon. Illegal aliens are parasites. And for those posters from Mexico saying we are Xenophobic, try looking at Mexico's policies towards Illegal immigration on YOUR Southern Border.

http://www.mnforsustain.org/Mexicos%20Immigration%20Law%20in%20US.pdf

http://www.c4ads.org/files/waller_csp_apr2006_mexico.pdf


In brief, the Mexican Constitution states that:
• Immigrants and foreign visitors are banned from public political discourse.

• Immigrants and foreigners are denied certain basic property rights.

• Immigrants are denied equal employment rights.

• Immigrants and naturalized citizens will never be treated as real Mexican citizens.

• Immigrants and naturalized citizens are not to be trusted in public service.

• Immigrants and naturalized citizens may never become members of the clergy.

• Private citizens may make citizens arrests of lawbreakers (i.e., illegal immigrants)
and hand them to the authorities.
• Immigrants may be expelled from Mexico for any reason and without due process

You dont exactly greet Guatemalans with Ice Cream and Lollipops, do you? Mexico treats Illegal Immigrants Far worse than the United States does.


Mexicans have priority over foreigners under equality of circumstances for all classes of concessions and for all employment, positions, or commissions of the Government in which the status of citizenship is not indispensable.
http://www.ilstu.edu/class/hist263/docs/1917const.html#TitleIChapterIV

Only Mexicans by birth or naturalization and Mexican companies have the right to acquire ownership of land
http://www.ilstu.edu/class/hist263/docs/1917const.html#TitleIChapterI



So Before throwing that brick, realize you live under one hell of a lot of glass.

[rOjOdogg]

SUMMARY
The equation to explain the whys of illegal immigration into the US is simple:
Add: Widespread abject poverty and starvation in Mexico after US corporations relocated their cheap-labor plants from the US-Mexico border to Asia, and after Mexican banks and telecommunications were privatized, creating dozens of instant billionaires and plunging millions into poverty.
Add: An extremely porous, under-enforced US-Mexico border.
Add: US employers anxious for more profits, and willing to exploit the poverty and fears of illegal immigrants to do so.
Add: The federal government anxious to curry favor with , and garner votes from, business owners and the Hispanic community...thus, willing to under-enforce borders and immigrations laws, and ignore illegal hiring by employers.
Add: The Social Security Administration dependent on taking in $7 billion annually of contributions from illegal immigrant workers who will never receive benefits from the system.
THE RESULT: Millions of illegal immigrants working for low wages and in poor working conditions, grateful for "scraps to fall from the US table of prosperity," per Dr. Groody.
Wealthier US businesses, and a much-richer Social Security Administration, neither which reimburse local and state authorities and taxpayers for the costs (education, health care, law enforcement and more) associated with illegal immigrants.
And a very angry US citizenry, who vilify immigrants for being here, rather than blaming the business owners who hire and exploit them, the US government which lets them enter the US and profits greatly from them, and the Mexican government which is happy to see them immigrate out of their country.
"Our nation virtually posts two sign on its southern border: 'Help Wanted: Inquire Within' and 'Do Not Trespass," says Pastor Robin Hoover of Humane Borders.
"Without the help of immigrant labor, the US economy would virtually collapse. We want and need cheap immigrant labor, but we do not want the immigrants."

[Connaught Ranger]

So can we expect ship loads of illegal Irish Emigrants back in Cork Harbour any day soon.

Connaught Ranger.:p

[oldsoak]

So can we expect ship loads of illegal Irish Emigrants back in Cork Harbour any day soon.

Connaught Ranger.:p

I would never wish yer man Kennedy on the Irish.....:-P

[Connaught Ranger]

I would never wish yer man Kennedy on the Irish.....:-P


rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl:hug: good one woot

[PeterRJG]

If he kids meet the legal requirements for citizenship, there's no need to punish them because their parents committed a crime.

Absolutely, but like Hot Lips pointed out, the jus solis law is exploited. If two illegal migrants have a kid on US soil, would the US Govt. be more or less inclined to deport the parents, knowing that a family separation would take place.

Knowing the jus solis law, how many illegal migrants do you think would have their kids on US soil just to throw a spanner in the works?

That's why jus sanguis is the way to go, for me.

[Ordie]

Absolutely, but like Hot Lips pointed out, the jus solis law is exploited. If two illegal migrants have a kid on US soil, would the US Govt. be more or less inclined to deport the parents, knowing that a family separation would take place.

Knowing the jus solis law, how many illegal migrants do you think would have their kids on US soil just to throw a spanner in the works?

That's why jus sanguis is the way to go, for me.

Therefore, as a child of undocumented immigrants, at the time of my birth, you would deny my birthright as a US Citizen with over 20 years of military and public service to my country, the United States of America.

Over my dead body.

[oldsoak]

I dont think anyone would deny you citizenship based on that Ordie. Being prepared to defend a society qualifies you for membership, and no-one here would take that from you. I gather the idea was to target those who feel that the advantages of being in the US justifies the disregard of its immigration laws and who otherwise are not good citizens.

[PeterRJG]

Therefore, as a child of undocumented immigrants, at the time of my birth, you would deny my birthright as a US Citizen with over 20 years of military and public service to my country, the United States of America.

Over my dead body.

And your case is typical, right? These people all have identical circumstances to yours? I'm sure there's a Latin term for this, but you're using an exception to invalidate a majority argument.

[Ordie]

And your case is typical, right? These people all have identical circumstances to yours? I'm sure there's a Latin term for this, but you're using an exception to invalidate a majority argument.

There many Americans in my circumstance who are children of the Simpson Mazzoli Act generation of immigrants. Many of whom are in the US military now serving in Iraq and in Afghanistan.

[Irons]

"Without the help of immigrant labor, the US economy would virtually collapse. We want and need cheap immigrant labor, but we do not want the immigrants."

That's BS IMO. How did we ever get along BEFORE all this mess? I wonder.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

SUMMARY
The equation to explain the whys of illegal immigration into the US is simple:
Add: Widespread abject poverty and starvation in Mexico after US corporations relocated their cheap-labor plants from the US-Mexico border to Asia, and after Mexican banks and telecommunications were privatized, creating dozens of instant billionaires and plunging millions into poverty.
Add: An extremely porous, under-enforced US-Mexico border.
Add: US employers anxious for more profits, and willing to exploit the poverty and fears of illegal immigrants to do so.
Add: The federal government anxious to curry favor with , and garner votes from, business owners and the Hispanic community...thus, willing to under-enforce borders and immigrations laws, and ignore illegal hiring by employers.
Add: The Social Security Administration dependent on taking in $7 billion annually of contributions from illegal immigrant workers who will never receive benefits from the system.
THE RESULT: Millions of illegal immigrants working for low wages and in poor working conditions, grateful for "scraps to fall from the US table of prosperity," per Dr. Groody.
Wealthier US businesses, and a much-richer Social Security Administration, neither which reimburse local and state authorities and taxpayers for the costs (education, health care, law enforcement and more) associated with illegal immigrants.
And a very angry US citizenry, who vilify immigrants for being here, rather than blaming the business owners who hire and exploit them, the US government which lets them enter the US and profits greatly from them, and the Mexican government which is happy to see them immigrate out of their country.
"Our nation virtually posts two sign on its southern border: 'Help Wanted: Inquire Within' and 'Do Not Trespass," says Pastor Robin Hoover of Humane Borders.
"Without the help of immigrant labor, the US economy would virtually collapse. We want and need cheap immigrant labor, but we do not want the immigrants."

Anybody else find it odd that we've got everybody and everything here to blame except for the actual person who makes the decision to come here illegally?

[ronnieraygun]

Anybody else find it odd that we've got everybody and everything here to blame except for the actual person who makes the decision to come here illegally?


LOL. Those I know were aware of the risks and were willing to run them. What they didn't fully expect was to be treated like second-class citizens even when they are completely legal, ie "Driving While Mexican" or profiling. Most of them don't complain because they understand that's part of the deal.

I remember shouldering the work of two old coworkers at previous McJob because they went to the Day Without A Mexican rally in IIRC 2007. One was born in Texas and the other was a naturalized citizen. Most of the illegals I know would NEVER go to a big "Look at Me" march like that and draw attention themselves as it lacks streetsmarts.

[Ordie]

That's BS IMO. How did we ever get along BEFORE all this mess? I wonder.

The United States and its British, Dutch and Spanish Colonial antecedents relied upon cheap labor through indentured servitude of Scots -Irish in the toccaco fields, slavery from Africa for cotton, low income immigrants from famine ridden Ireland for the industrial revolution, Chinese laborers for the railroads, and Mexican immigrants in the agriculture sector.

[Irons]

...and the in-between times, of which there have been many?

[Ordie]

...and the in-between times, of which there have been many?

Periods of reationary populist anti-immigrant, anti-minority and anti-black sentiments and policies.

The Chinese Exclusion Act aimed at the Chinese
Jim Crow laws aimed at African Americans through segregation
California Alien Land Law of 1913 prohibited "aliens ineligible for citizenship" (i.e. all Asian immigrants) from owning land or property, but permits three year leases. It affected the Chinese, Indian, Japanese, and Korean immigrant farmers in California.
Emergency quota act of 1924 restricted Italian and Eastern European immigration.
Japanese American internment by Executive Order 9066 in 1942.
Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 restricted Mexican immigration.
Historical and present immigration and nationalization policies has more to do with race, ethnicity and artbitray political needs rather than actual rational economic and educational need of the country.

[Hot Lips]

Therefore, as a child of undocumented immigrants, at the time of my birth, you would deny my birthright as a US Citizen with over 20 years of military and public service to my country, the United States of America.

Over my dead body.

It has been stated repeatedly that the law needs to change going foward. I'd even support making it retroactive 10 years or so.

But if you were born today to illegals - yes. Times have changed and we can no longer afford to not acknowledge and address the drain this has had on the United States over the years.

It does make me stop to reflect whenever I see anyone type "my country" while they are engaged in defending the population of a foreign country that come here to undermine our citizens for personal and national gain "back home". I'm not sure if by "my country" you mean the United States or the creation of an extention of Mexico that you and others seem intent on supporting by defending ongoing infiltration by illegals.

It's deceit that you've benefited from at the expense of others in this country so I get where you are coming from, but moving forward we have to stop this kind of abuse from dragging the United States down.

.

[Irons]

Periods of reationary populist anti-immigrant, anti-minority and anti-black sentiments and policies.

The Chinese Exclusion Act aimed at the Chinese
Jim Crow laws aimed at African Americans through segregation
California Alien Land Law of 1913 prohibited "aliens ineligible for citizenship" (i.e. all Asian immigrants) from owning land or property, but permits three year leases. It affected the Chinese, Indian, Japanese, and Korean immigrant farmers in California.
Emergency quota act of 1924 restricted Italian and Eastern European immigration.
Japanese American internment by Executive Order 9066 in 1942.
Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 restricted Mexican immigration.

Historical and present immigration and nationalization policies has more to do with race, ethnicity and artbitray political needs rather than actual rational economic and educational need of the country.

Whitey is just out to get you isn't he? Christ almighty.

[Ordie]

My country is the United States. That includes the Southwest.

It doesn't belong to Mexico as per the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo of 1848 and Gadsden Purchase of 1853.

I find the idea of retrocession stupid.

I support the reformation of immigration laws that benefits the economic, educational and social needs of our country. Not one based on arbitrary quotas, political preference based on country of origin (Cuba) or wealth.

[Irons]

Don't forget Texas kicking the crap out of Santa Anna, and the little jaunt into Mexico City the US had to do to remind them of that fact; or the first time the US had to deal with Mexican Drug Dealers a.k.a. Pancho. :)

[Hot Lips]

What they didn't fully expect was to be treated like second-class citizens even when they are completely legal, ie "Driving While Mexican" or profiling.

That is in part because former illegals and citizens with relatives abroad have also helped to undermine our immigration laws to the extent that we now have 11+ million illegals within our borders - profiling and being viewed with the eye of suspicion is the consequence.

Don't like feeling like a second class citizen? Don't help illegal’s come here, don't hire them, don't give them a place to live, etc. Don't allow them to hide within your ranks. Don't try to defend their right to break our laws. Etc...

[Hot Lips]

The United States and its British, Dutch and Spanish Colonial antecedents relied upon cheap labor through indentured servitude of Scots -Irish in the toccaco fields, slavery from Africa for cotton, low income immigrants from famine ridden Ireland for the industrial revolution, Chinese laborers for the railroads, and Mexican immigrants in the agriculture sector.

As a young nation we took in cheap labor from all over the world. That was then. Since then we have struggled to build up this country and establish laws that protect our legal workforce. This is now --- when illegal immigrants are, by the millions, undermining the progress we've made and trying to sell us on the benefits of lower standards, lower expectations.

Why is Mexico incapable of taking their own laborers and laborers from their southern border and building up their own country?

[Jobu]

As a young nation we took in cheap labor from all over the world. That was then. This is now.

Why is Mexico incapable of taking their own laborers and laborers from their southern border and building up their own country?

Because the evil gringos moved all the factories to China.