Macedonia's Identity Crisis

[Kampfbaer]

BICKERING IN THE BALKANS
Macedonia's Identity Crisis
By Walter Mayr

Greece has blocked the NATO and EU ambitions of Macedonia for the past 18 years over a bizarre name dispute. The ongoing controversy threatens the very cohesion of the diminutive Balkan republic, which holds presidential elections this Sunday

The village of Achlada, population 400, lies in the shadow of a 2,500-meter (8,200-foot) peak on Greece's northern border. In the café on the main square, a handful of elderly residents silently run chains of wooden beads through their fingers.

At first glance, Achlada, with its snow-white church, looks like a sleepy, idyllic Greek village. During the Ottoman era, however, Achlada was called Krusoradi, named after the Slavic word for pear tree. As a result of the Second Balkan War in 1913, the village became part of Greece and was renamed, coinciding with the partition of the historic region of Macedonia among Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria. This part of Achlada's history is barely spoken about.

Strangers approaching a two-story house at the end of a path near the church are likely to encounter suspicious looks. The building has stood empty for more than half a century. According to a local war memorial, the former owner was killed in 1940 during Greece's struggle against fascist Italy. His name was Nikos Gruios, and according to the inscription on the memorial, he gave his life "for his homeland."

This would hardly be worth mentioning, except that Nikola Gruevski, the grandson of the fallen war hero, wrote a letter to the government in Athens in the summer of 2008. In the letter, he demanded official recognition of the Slavic-Macedonian minority in Greece and the restitution of the property of former residents of Slavic origin who had fled Greece after 1945.

The letter was taken seriously, but mainly because of the identity of its author. Nikola Gruevski, the grandson of the hero Nikos Gruios, happens to be the prime minister of Greece's northern neighbor, the Republic of Macedonia.

To be more precise, Gruevski is the prime minister of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, or FYROM. To this day, this is the official name used for this country of 2 million people -- which it was given in response to Greek pressure -- at meetings of the United Nations, as well as in European Union and NATO accession talks.

The dispute over Macedonia has smoldered since 1991, when the republic declared its independence. Europe's problem child will soon come of age, but the argument over what its name will ultimately be remains unresolved.

According to Athens, true Macedonians only live south of the border, speak Greek and are the descendants of Alexander the Great. For this reason, the Greeks argue, Slavs, who began to settle in the historically significant region only about 1,000 years after the golden age of the Macedonian royal dynasty, cannot simply call themselves Macedonians -- not across the border in the territory of the former Yugoslavia, and certainly not in Greece proper. Greek Prime Minister Costas Caramanlis reemphasized this position last summer, when he said: "There is no 'Macedonian' minority in Greece. And there never was one."

Does this mean that the prime minister in the Macedonian capital Skopje must stand idly by while Athens insists that people like his ancestors, including his father and grandfather, could not possibly have existed? Is there is no such thing as Slavs who grew up in the Greek part of the historic region of Macedonia and, despite having had to accept Greek surnames, remain faithful to their native language?

The answer is easy, says Gruevski, speaking at a government building in Skopje: "If the Greeks were to admit that Slavic Macedonians are living in their midst, it would be clear that we should be allowed to call ourselves Macedonians. That's why they won't admit it. But what if we, as a candidate for EU membership, treated minorities the way EU member Greece does?"

Gruevski, 38, is generally a robust defender of the Slavic-Macedonian cause. Nevertheless, he is smart enough not to make use of his own family history as an argument in a dispute that has kept UN, NATO and EU politicians on their toes for years. "The underlying problem" -- that of the Greeks' view of their history -- must be resolved, says Gruevski. Greece's long-established Slavic population, most of whom sided with the communists during the 1946-1949 civil war, play little part in that Greek interpretation.

The myth of the founding of modern Greece is based on the idea of a mono-ethnic nation. The country's founding fathers wanted nothing to do with the ethnic melting pot of the Byzantine and Ottoman eras, and instead sought to restore the purity and glory of ancient Greece, "a heroic nation, which traces its roots directly back to Pericles and Socrates," as spokesmen for the Slavic minority in Greece remark sarcastically.

Only 100 years ago, however, say Greece's Slavs, the region surrounding the northern Greek city of Thessaloniki might have been characterized by the same attribute that the proud Greeks assign to their reviled northern neighbor today, namely that there are "nuts from a thousand trees" there -- in other words, a diverse mix of ethnic groups. Similarly, Italians refer to fruit salad as "macedonia di frutta."

At the turn of the 20th century, Macedonia was an explosive region and a bone of contention in the southern Balkans, home to anti-Ottoman agitators, assassins and nationalists of every stripe. They used Thessaloniki -- a cosmopolitan port city with a majority Jewish population before World War I -- as their center of operations.

The current dispute over Macedonia, says Greek sociologist Michael Kelpanides, is a convenient tool for politicians in Athens to attract voters and divert attention away from the country's real problems. Twenty-eight years after joining the EU, Greece is still the union's biggest net recipient of cash, and its national debt as a percentage of GDP is second only to Italy's. The average wage in Greece corresponds to the average wage in Poland, and when it comes to corruption and illiteracy, the Greeks are near the bottom of the heap of EU countries.

As if it were still just as important today to defend the legacy of Hellenic children of the gods against Slavic-speaking barbarians, the Greeks demand subservience from their northern neighbor in the dispute over its name. In doing so, they are holding their EU and NATO allies hostage. The Gruevski government's bid to join NATO, supported mainly by the United States, failed at the alliance's 2008 summit meeting in Bucharest when it was vetoed by Greece.

"Since then, it has been clear to us that we have nothing left to lose," says the Macedonian prime minister. "What is happening here is classic blackmail." For this reason, Gruevski and the members of his government and their staffs have recently placed his nationalist party, the VMRO-DPMNE, on a full-blown counteroffensive. Gruevski and his cohorts are doing their utmost to prove that world history was written on the territory of modern-day Macedonia -- even if it belonged to a different country at the time.

The Macedonian prime minister is now surrounded at every turn with signs of the glorious past of the piece of land he governs. The lobby outside his office in Skopje is decorated with marble busts, bronze helmets and jewelry. The nearby football stadium was recently renamed in honor of Philip II of Macedon, who ruled in the 4th century BC. The Skopje airport and the highway to Greece are already named after Philip's son, Alexander the Great. Looking for "comfort in the past" is a sign of a lack of "visions for the future," Trifun Kostovski, the outgoing mayor of Skopje, says derisively.

But his visions have also failed. His Skopje of the future is still under construction. Statues of Hellenistic heroes are being erected between corrugated metal slums and drab apartment buildings. Albanians worship their national hero Skanderbeg, while Christians pay homage to Mother Teresa, who was born in Skopje, with a bizarre memorial of rough stone and glass. Meanwhile, the Roma from the Topana neighborhood sit on the famous Stone Bridge over the Vardar River, playing the shell game.

What holds together a young country like Macedonia -- a country with a dozen ethnic groups at home and few friends abroad? "What's important," according to historian Stefan Troebst, describing the delayed sense of national cohesion among modern-day Macedonians, "is that they know who they don't want to be, namely neither Bulgarians nor Serbs, and certainly not Greeks or Albanians."

But even this lowest common denominator is in jeopardy. Some 30,000 Bulgarian passports are already believed to be in circulation in this country of 2 million people -- valuable documents which allow free travel to EU countries. The fact that the former prime minister and leader of the nationalists, Ljubco Georgievski, now travels with a Bulgarian passport has been the source of biting ridicule among critics of the new Macedonia. And the 500,000 ethnic Albanians in the country in any case traditionally feel more closely aligned with their counterparts in Albania, Serbia and Kosovo than with Macedonia's Slavic majority.

Additionally, poverty helps to strengthen the forces that act against national cohesion. With an average monthly net income of €276 ($360), Macedonia is now a problem child, even by regional standards. Given these circumstances, it must seem a slap in the face to Skopje residents that a $100 million (€77 million) complex that resembles a Balkan branch of Fort Knox is being built on a hill behind their Ottoman fortress.

With its high walls, road blocks, surveillance cameras and rumored 10 to 15 underground floors, the new US embassy is a concrete expression of support for the small, stricken Balkan republic of Macedonia from Washington's geopolitical strategists. It is also a sign of hope for its citizens.

In the global competition for oil and gas from the Caspian Sea, both Americans and Europeans are focusing on transport routes that are not jeopardized by Russian control or bottlenecks at the Bosporus. Oil coming from Bulgaria's Black Sea coast is expected to begin flowing toward the Mediterranean through a pipeline in Macedonia soon.

The big US embassy will "presumably become the intelligence center for the entire region, a complement to the military base they have at Camp Bondsteel over in Kosovo," says Ljubomir Frckoski. Sitting at Café Roma in Skopje, Frckoski, a skilled politician who looks every bit the cosmopolitan world traveler, explains what will change as soon as he becomes Macedonia's next president -- in other words, after the elections next Sunday.

According to Frckoski, it is time to bring Macedonia out of its isolation. "We are stationary, while everything around us is moving," he says. "Bulgaria and Romania are in the EU, and Albania is a member of NATO." Macedonia, he explains, needs to resolve its dispute with Greece. And who else but Frckoski is capable of putting Europe's poor cousin on the right path? "I am in a sense the father," says Frckoski. "I wrote the first constitution and was involved in the treaty following the conflict with the Albanians in 2001."

In Tetovo, a snow-covered Albanian stronghold, there is another candidate, but this one is patiently playing the right hand of his master. Agron Buxhaku of the ethnic Albanian DUI party knows that he is merely an accessory in the presidential election. The man at his side, Ali Ahmeti, is in fact the one who holds sway over the Albanian camp. Placed on a US blacklist of extremists in early 2001, Ahmeti became the co-architect of the Ohrid Framework Agreement in the same year. The agreement brought an end to bloody fighting between Slavic and Albanian Macedonians.

As long as the rights of the Albanians, who represent a quarter of the population, are respected, there will be no problems, says Ahmeti, with an impenetrable look in his eyes. If not, however, it would be sufficient, he says, to bring "representatives of all Albanian camps together" and convince them to stage a boycott -- which would cripple the country.

In the days leading up to the presidential election, all parties agree that the dispute with Greece must be resolved. There are two strategies on the table: intransigence and the willingness to compromise. Gjorgje Ivanov, the most promising candidate from the current government's party, favors the hard-line approach. The opposition, on the other hand, includes proponents of a conciliatory policy toward Athens. They are sifting through ideas on what to name their country in the future. The potential names include Upper Macedonia, Northern Macedonia, New Macedonia and the Republic of Macedonia (Skopje).

Anyone seeking advice ahead of what could be a decisive move can consult the oracle of Skopje. Kiro Gligorov, 91, still sits bolt upright in his chair when he receives visitors. Being a former partisan and friend of the late Yugoslav ruler Josip Broz Tito as well as the last important survivor of the days of the Yugoslav politburo. The first president of the independent Republic of Macedonia, Gligorov has lived through two world wars and five different forms of government on this small piece of Balkan real estate.

He extracted Macedonia from the Yugoslav federation without a shot being fired, before becoming the victim of an attempted assassination in 1995. A deep scar several centimeters long serves a painful reminder of a shrapnel wound he received above his right eye. His fellow Macedonians, says Gligorov, must understand that "Macedonia is all we have."

What about the name dispute with the Greeks? "I would seek a compromise," says Gligorov.

Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,614268,00.html

[Jobu]

These people are crazy if they think the Greeks are going to give them the Macedonian name and in turn open themselves up to territorial claims.

All the whining in the world won't change that. Athens knows this is ultimately about redrawing the borders, not just national pride.

[ZeroZen]

Any aternative names for FYROM

[Jobu]

Any aternative names for FYROM

East Albania

[ZeroZen]

Republic Of Skopje...

Blame the treaty of Bucharest

[127th Knights]

I completely agree with the Greek's view on this whole subject. I wrote a paper that was published at Indiana University three years back about the Macedonian ethnic identity. In summary, it doesn't exist. There are a few primary ethnicities in Macedonia (FYROM...I'll just call it Macedonia in this post...sorry kumbaros) and they are Greek, Serbian, Bulgarian, or Albanian. Here's the problem. There is also a huge number of people that have no idea what they are because of communist rule in the former Yugoslavia. Here are the discerning factors in recognizing differences.

1. Language: Those that speak Greek are Greek; Albanian...then they're Albanian; Macedonian dialect...either Serbian or Bulgarian.

2. Paternal Lineage: The lineage of the father, paternal grandfather, paternal great-grandfather, etc.

3. Religion: Roman Catholics are typically Albanian and the rest of the Albanians are Muslim or atheist. Orthodox slavs serve Liturgy in Church Slavonic while the Greeks serve it in Greek.

4. Slava: This is why the author of the article brought up the "neither Bulgarian or Serbian, but especially not Albanian or Greek". Most of the Macedonian slavs are either Bulgarian or Serbian. The hereditary lineage can be most easily followed through slava. Slava is a Serbian holiday that commemorates a family's acceptance of Christ in their lives by celebrating that anniversary on the day it happened (this day corresponds to a Saints day celebrated on that day). For example, May 6th is St. Georges Day and my family celebrates that day as its Slava. Since this is a singularly Serbian thing to do, those Macedonian Slavs that celebrate Slava are Serbian and the rest Bulgarian.

There ya go guys.

[LineDoggie]

You speak English, are you English?

[CRTS27]

I know few Albanians from FYROM and they say it would be better for them if FYROM break down and everyone go in his way.

[Walter Sobchak]

The last I hear they were considering the name "Canada"...

[d'artagnan]

as a chinese, when i was in school, all the students would be taught that Alexander the great was from Macedonia, and I thought, wow, a great slavic empire in the ancient time, and only later i realise Macedonia is Greek instead of Slavic. no wonder when during the opening ceremony of olympics, only Macedonia was called its full name: FYROM and its chinese name is horribly long: Qian-Nan-silafu Maqidun Gongheguo.... gosh, it didn't even fit the board given.

But does it annoy greeks that much? I don't know eh, just a bit curious. Is it ok if they called them Slavic-Macedonia or something like that?

[SrB-23Q]

i agree with the Greeks on this one.
i mean Slavs came to the Balkans in the 5th century AD
Ancient Macedonia was around 300 BC, roughly 700 years before Slavs came to the Balkans.
So todays Macedonia has no right to just call its self Macedonia.

[Jacobisahottie]

greeks are soo pathetic in keeping their tiny neighbour hostage over a name.

[chris450]

theres your answer in 2 sentences


These people are crazy if they think the Greeks are going to give them the Macedonian name and in turn open themselves up to territorial claims.

All the whining in the world won't change that. Athens knows this is ultimately about redrawing the borders, not just national pride.

[Amateur]

But does it annoy greeks that much? I don't know eh, just a bit curious. Is it ok if they called them Slavic-Macedonia or something like that?

As a Greek, I think "Slavomacedonia" would be a fair compromise and a name close to the truth, since they are Slavs, living in one part of the geographic area of Macedonia. Although some fellow Greeks would disagree, the Greek government has repeatedly stated that it would agree to a "composite name" like that, and I think it would be a good compromise for both sides. They have rejected that compromise in the past - it's up to them to decide, as far as I know it's still on the table.

And yes, the name "Macedonia" annoys us, not only for obvious reasons of historical truth, but also because (if it is not supplemented by some definition indicating that their state is only a part of geographic Macedonia) it implies that they have claims over the total of the geographic region of Macedonia, i.e. including the biggest part of Macedonia, which lies in Greece and is inhabited by Greeks. By the way, such claims on Greek soil were included in their Constitution, are taught in their schools and also appear on public maps (such as the one on this monument, showing Greek Macedonia as part of their state)

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7110/megalhmakedoniaik7.jpg

So this is a very genuine and well-documented reservation by Greece towards FYROM. And this is what a composite name would accomplish: it would demonstrate and declare that their state is only a part of the geographic area of Macedonia and has no claim over the rest. Actually, there is no reason for any peace loving person there not to accept a composite name; the only ones denying a compromise are those who still nurish irredentist claims against Greece (like their PM Gruevski, shown above whith the infamous map).

[Greek soldier]

But does it annoy greeks that much? I don't know eh, just a bit curious. Is it ok if they called them Slavic-Macedonia or something like that?

It's not only the official name they want to claim. That's the tip of the iceberg.

One reason is that the Greek part of the region called "Macedonia" has oil, natural gas, gold, uranium etc., a region full of precious minerals. It is said that George Soro is "the Godfather of FYROM".

Another is that FYROM is afraid of Bulgaria. Bear in mind that many citizens of FYROM do hold a Bulgarian passport.

And also don't forget that FYROM is kind of a US proxy against Russia.


East Albania

[thend]

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Makedonia/Encyclopedia1.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Makedonia/n530606748_89887_186.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Makedonia/GeographicAtlas1.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Makedonia/GeopgraphicAtlas2.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Makedonia/HighSchoolGeographybook1.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Makedonia/HighSchoolGeographyBook2.jpghttp://i16.tinypic.com/5x7bgnb.jpghttp://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/466922http://i10.tinypic.com/53zckg1.jpghttp://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/kofos_front.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Makedonia/dateonrace.jpghttp://s179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Makedonia/report1909.jpghttp://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/484webiq4.pnghttp://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/485webvi3.pnghttp://tinypic.com/ftdc8l.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Makedonia/2e1ybo8.pnghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Makedonia/29ofv2v.pnghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Makedonia/347ic6v.pnghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Makedonia/2mfkmz8.pnghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Makedonia/HRWGreece.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Makedonia/HMRbackgroundpage5.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Makedonia/HMRpage6.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Makedonia/TheNewYorkEveningpostingaboutIMROIn.jpg

[chris450]

you're doing a pretty good job at owning yourself...i especially liked this one

Early Roman times ....remind us where the slavs were during the early Roman times

i mean before they encountered any real Macedonians which happen to be Greek and have those funny names you cant ****ounce like Alexandros,Philippos etc
http://i10.tinypic.com/53zckg1.jpg

[Mordoror]

as always i disagree with the "paranoia" of our Greek fellows here on that board and in Greece too
i can't understand how they can fear their tiny northern neighbourg to want to take a part of Greec which is militarily and economically thousand times stronger (not talking that Greece is also member of EU and NATO and has the support of these two organisations)
i see here a deep fear that could be linked to older events (Cyprus turkish invasion maybe) where Greece was somewaht let alone
Of course one can argue that some Macedonian nationalists are saying that
But these nationalists are morons if they think that will someday happen

Now at least that article is well balanced and shows the political game played by politicians of both countries
All these agressive pathetic announcments are aimed internally either being Greek

The current dispute over Macedonia, says Greek sociologist Michael Kelpanides, is a convenient tool for politicians in Athens to attract voters and divert attention away from the country's real problems.
or Macedonian

What holds together a young country like Macedonia -- a country with a dozen ethnic groups at home and few friends abroad? "What's important," according to historian Stefan Troebst, describing the delayed sense of national cohesion among modern-day Macedonians, "is that they know who they don't want to be, namely neither Bulgarians nor Serbs, and certainly not Greeks or Albanians."
leading for sheer stupid attitude from both sides of the border

anyway that issue was discussed again and again and again on that board
no solution will be found here on internet
let's the politicians solve it (even if actually they being Macedonian or Greek are not wise enough to remove their heads out of their asses .....)

[chris450]

as always i disagree with the "paranoia" of our Greek fellows here on that board and in Greece too
i can't understand how they can fear their tiny northern neighbourg to want to take a part of Greec which is militarily and economically thousand times stronger (not talking that Greece is also member of EU and NATO and has the support of these two organisations)

its called "setting a precedent"..anyway ,we're not really into charity and wont hand out parts of our cultural inheritance to anyone just because they are weak and in desperate need of an identity ,sorry

[astana]

Remind from another region of Greece


The case Lesbian vs. Lesbian rofl



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJLmk-k4pVo&feature=channel_page

[Mordoror]

anyway ,we're not really into charity and wont hand out parts of our cultural inheritance to anyone just because they are weak and in desperate need of an identity ,sorry

Chris, i am not saying that .....
You have two points coming back all the time concerning Macedonia/FYROM
The cultural inheritance : that's the point A
we can discuss it again and again
And although i agree that saying that modern "FYROMIans" are descendant of Alexander is sheer stupidity (and i'am from "Fyromian" birthood when i say that)
this should not be mixed with the everytime repeated "Fyrom is a threat has they will ask our Northern territorial Macedonia"

to sum it you can be pissed that Macedonia/Fyrom politicians play and what you see as your cultural inheritance it is understandable in some way

what is more criticable is the fact that you fear a possible territorial threat for your northern region, territorial threat that exists only in the mind and words of your politicians (for internal political purposes) and in the mind and words of some Fyromians hardcore nationalists that have the average IQ of a oyster and that are not, far from it, the majority of the population

[chris450]

i am not saying there is a imminent military threat at this point,nobody does that would be absurd- most people on this board are aware of the current military balance-

what i am saying is that nomatter how small the capacity of someone to materialise his threats (in this case open expansionism against our borders) ,fact remains that mr Gruevski and his friends have repeatedly expresed a number of absurd claims and have interfered with Greek internal matters in a blunt and provocative manner

ignoring the problem in the field of diplomacy, hoping it will go away on its own,just because we have a longer stick is not a responsible and prudent course of action

something like that would make sense in everyday human relations, but in international politics where state interests are involved its a whole different matter

as i said a couple posts back ,letting this fly sets a precedent ,a really bad one ...remember we're talking about the Balkans here and not central Europe

[Sumadinac]

I don't understand why Macedonians or fyromians don't accept a compromise like northern Macedonia? They're not the descendant of the ancient Macedonians and their territory doesn't cover the major part of the geographical Macedonia.

[Wildgoose]

[quote=astana;4002354]Remind from another region of Greece


The case Lesbian vs. Lesbian rofl


American Lesbians should remain in America!woot

[Mordoror]

I don't understand why Macedonians or fyromians don't accept a compromise like northern Macedonia? They're not the descendant of the ancient Macedonians and their territory doesn't cover the major part of the geographical Macedonia.
the guilt is both side

Hardcore nationalists in Fyrom won't accept it because they are what they are

but still some greek politicians are discarding any composite name where the word Macedonia is present (because they seek to please a nationalist part of voters ....)

you see it is always one step ahead, ten steps backward .....

[Mencius]

as always i disagree with the "paranoia" of our Greek fellows here on that board and in Greece too
i can't understand how they can fear their tiny northern neighbourg to want to take a part of Greec which is militarily and economically thousand times stronger

Look at it from this historic perspective and you might understand better.

In World War 2, Germany stepped in after the defeat of Italian forces and corrected his allies problem by occupying Greece. What happened after that was Italian and Bulgarian forces stepped into Greece under certain agreements with Germany. And I believe armed Albanian bands were co-operating with Germany as well.

Everyone after their own interests. No paranoia here. Clear memories.

[Amateur]

I don't understand why Macedonians or fyromians don't accept a compromise like northern Macedonia? They're not the descendant of the ancient Macedonians and their territory doesn't cover the major part of the geographical Macedonia.


the guilt is both side
Hardcore nationalists in Fyrom won't accept it because they are what they are
but still some greek politicians are discarding any composite name where the word Macedonia is present (because they seek to please a nationalist part of voters ....)
It's not the same:
On one hand, the hardcore nationalists in FYROM are the guys governing the country, especially Mr. Gruevski;
on the other hand, hardliners in Greece are on the margin of the political spectrum, and the Greek government has repeatedly declared that it would accept a "composite name" solution, like the ones that I have outlined in here (Slavomacedonia, Upper Macedonia etc.).

So, while I must admit you as a person are a moderate guy, FYROM's government is playing a totally different tune than you are. And as long as they do, there will not be much progress.

[Mordoror]

@Mencius

i fully understand that .... as i fully understand that Balkans states and people are bogged in what happened 50/100/500/2500 years ago

"clear memories" are sometimes an heavy burden to bear

Do you think that EU could be what it is actually if French and Germans were bogged like that in the clear memories of what happened in 1940-1914-1870-1813 etc .....

history reminders are the scourge of the whole Balkan
on the other side it is also the basis of the shape-soul-existence of any nationality and country in this area
that's why it is so difficult to do not have references to the past and go simply ahead

[Mordoror]

It's not the same:
On one hand, the hardcore nationalists in FYROM are the guys governing the country, especially Mr. Gruevski;
on the other hand, hardliners in Greece are on the margin of the political spectrum, and the Greek government has repeatedly declared that it would accept a "composite name" solution.
I recognise you are a moderate guy, but FYROM's government is playing a totally different tune.

@Amateur
While i somewhat agree with what you says, i somewhat also disagree
it was clearly stated last year in some french and english press that even then the composite name would be no more a solution from the greek perspective if it contains the term Macedonia

Ok it was last year and i do not follow everyday the issue may be the things have changed now but i am 100 % pretty sure of that (maybe it was 1 or 2 months after the Bucarest NATO summit as the greeks politicians decided to play that while they considered them victorious after the veto and the support of some countries like France ...)

[Sumadinac]

I've read here that Greece proposed the name "Slavomacedonia". There's no possibility for FYROM to be called Slavic Republic of Macedonia or Slavomacedonia since 25% of the population is albanian, not to mention minorities such as romas or turks.

[Amateur]

@Amateur
While i somewhat agree with what you says, i somewhat also disagree
it was clearly stated last year in some french and english press that even then the composite name would be no more a solution from the greek perspective if it contains the term Macedonia
Ok it was last year and i do not follow everyday the issue may be the things have changed now but i am 100 % pretty sure of that (maybe it was 1 or 2 months after the Bucarest NATO summit as the greeks politicians decided to play that while they considered them victorious after the veto and the support of some countries like France ...)
No, you remember wrong; after the Bucharest summit Greece not only showed no arrogance or intransigence towrads FYROM, but on the contrary officially and publicly reaffirmed the position that Greece accepts a composite name. For instance here (http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/Articles/en-US/300408_F2039.htm) you will find the position of the Greek MFA expressed on April 30th, 2008, less than one month after Bucharest.


... we have come to negotiations prepared to accept a composite name, with a geographical qualifier for the term "Macedonia." All we ask of the other side is that they meet us half way.
...On the fresh momentum of the NATO Summit aftermath, with our expressed readiness to resume negotiations immediately under United Nations auspices, I would like to send a clear and unequivocal message to FYROM: Our will to find a mutually acceptable solution is firm.

As you see, the ball is entirely in FYROM's field; Greece has done its part.

[Mordoror]

didnot the Greek officials AFAIK refused the last offers by Nimetz ?
Maybe i am wrong but here some quotes (sorry somes are in French) from press :

les autorités grecques ne s’estiment pas du tout satisfaites par les dernières propositions onomastiques faites par le médiateur Matthew Nimetz et qui étaient: “République de Macédoine du Nord”, “Nouvelle république de Macédoine” et “République de Macédoine (Skopje)”. Skopje, en revanche, les a finalement considérées comme définitivement acceptables, et envisage déjà d’organiser un référendum pour rendre un de ces nom officiel, comme le *******e le journal Eleftherotypia du 31 mars (voir article (http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,id=38080656,60084112,68113680,54289936)).

linlk : http://pressealagrecque.cafebabel.com/fr/post/2008/04/03/Le-pays-sans-nom



Macedonian daily Dnevnik, quoting diplomatic sources, said that the proposal was that "Republic of Northern Macedonia" be for international use. The country's language would be labelled Macedonian and its people as citizens of Northern Macedonia.
In New York, Greek representative Adamantios Vasilakis said that Greece did not want the people of the former Yugoslav republic to be called Macedonian because that was the name of people living in northern Greece.


source : http://www.sofiaecho.com/article/mediator-proposes-northern-macedonia-as-compromise-in-name-dispute-media-reports/id_32231/catid_66






3. Avez-vous été fâchée contre les Américains lorsqu’ils ont reconnu le nom constitutionnel de l’ARYM. En même temps, vous demandez - et continuez de le faire- au Gouvernement de Skopje de faire preuve d’un esprit constructif mais la Grèce a été celle qui a refusé la dernière proposition de M. Mathew Nimetz l’année dernière. Pourquoi avez-vous refusé cette proposition?

L’année dernière, M. Nimetz, l’envoyé spécial du Secrétaire général des Nations Unies a soumis une proposition globale. En réponse à cette proposition - qui toutefois ne reflétait pas nos points de vue - notre gouvernement a accepté le document en tant que base pour les négociations. D’autre part, Skopje a refusé la proposition. Quelques mois après, M. Nimetz a présenté une deuxième proposition. Skopje a accepté la proposition tandis que la Grèce l’a rejetée en disant qu'elle n'était pas équilibrée. Cela étant, nous devons penser de manière positive et considérer l’avenir. Je ne voudrais pas me répéter. Je veux être très claire : le peuple grec souhaite une solution qui conduira à la normalisation complète de nos relations bilatérales, facilitera le parcours de notre pays voisin vers les institutions euro-atlantiques et renforcera la stabilité et la coopération dans notre région.


http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/GoToPrintable.aspx?UICulture=fr-FR&GUID={DC51E6AE-9234-43AB-B621-264ED43D73C7}


to quote you in fact the ball is in the MIDDLE of the game area and nobody wants to grasp it (that's what i feel personnaly.... of course people from both side will disagree a little or a lot ....)

[Amateur]

Let's clarify one thing: the Greek position is that we accept a composite name, i.e. "Macedonia" accompanied by a qualifier (geographic probably), for all uses. "Northern Macedonia" is OK in this respect, and "Macedonia (Skopje)" is definitely not acceptable, because it implies that the only Macedonia is the Skopje state; "Nova Macedonia" is questionable.

Now in the cases you refer to, it was either an unacceptable name proposal (the initial Nimetz proposal "Macedonia - Skopje") or an unacceptable range of uses, i.e. FYROM would still be allowed to use the term "Macedonia" (plain) in a number of cases. That's why those proposals were rejected; the Greek position remains that we accept a composite name i.e. "Macedonia" accompanied by a qualifier, for all uses. On that I gave you an official statement by the Greek FM, and I think it's pretty clear. To put it in practical terms, if FYROM was to accept "Northern Macedonia" or "Upper Macedonia" for all uses tomorrow, we would have an agreement.

[Greek soldier]

The Department has noted increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from YugoslavPartisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state.

This Government (of USA) considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonian "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic, nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.

The approved policy of this Government is to oppose any revival of the Macedonian issue as related to Greece. The Greek section of Macedonia is largely inhabited by Greeks, and the Greek people are almost unanimously opposed to the creation of a Macedonian state. Allegations of serious Greek participation in any such agitation can be assumed to be false.

This Government (of USA) would regard as responsible any Government or group of Governments tolerating or encouraging menacing or aggressive acts of "Macedonian forces" against Greece

(U.S. State Department, Foreign Relations Vol. VIII, 868.014 / 26 Dec. 1944)

[Kaapeli]

i agree with the Greeks on this one.
i mean Slavs came to the Balkans in the 5th century AD
Ancient Macedonia was around 300 BC, roughly 700 years before Slavs came to the Balkans.
So todays Macedonia has no right to just call its self Macedonia.

You don't change place names according to who lives there.
If the area has been called Macedonia before then there's no reason to change that.


They're not the descendant of the ancient Macedonians and their territory doesn't cover the major part of the geographical Macedonia.

The modern inhabitants of the Balkans (including all the different ethnicities living there) are 80% descendants of neolithic peoples from the same area. Most of them speak different languages and have different religion now but their ancestors are mostly the same people that lived there 2000 years ago or propably longer.
Most historical migrations are actually very minor and contain very little population displacement. The newcomers are just assimilated culturally or import their own culture to the area.

I don't know about the geographical history though whether the area of FYROM was once called Macedonia.

[Sumadinac]

You don't change place names according to who lives there.
If the area has been called Macedonia before then there's no reason to change that.



The modern inhabitants of the Balkans (including all the different ethnicities living there) are 80% descendants of neolithic peoples from the same area. Most of them speak different languages and have different religion now but their ancestors are mostly the same people that lived there 2000 years ago or propably longer.
Most historical migrations are actually very minor and contain very little population displacement. The newcomers are just assimilated culturally or import their own culture to the area.

I don't know about the geographical history though whether the area of FYROM was once called Macedonia.

I agree with what you said but that's pretty much the same for the rest of Europe and other regions of the world. So this can't be held as an argument in favor of the slavic macedonians since a nation is defined by culture.

[thend]

Greece alleges that:
1.The Macedonians should not be recognized as Macedonians because the Macedonians have been of Greek nationality since 2000 BC.
2.Those Macedonians whose language belongs to the Slavic family of languages, must not call themselves Macedonians because 4000 years ago, the Macedonians spoke Greek and still speak nothing but Greek.
3.Macedonia has no right to call itself by this name because Macedonia has always been and still is a region of Greece.
The people of Macedonia affirm that:
1.The ancient Macedonians were a distinct European people, conscious and proud of their nationality, their customs, their language, and their name. The same applies to the modern Macedonians today.
2.The ancient Macedonians regarded the ancient Greeks as neighbors, not as kinsmen. The Greeks treated the Macedonians as foreigners ("barbarians") whose native language was Macedonian, not Greek.
3.Macedonia was never a region of Greece. On the contrary, ancient Greece was subjected to Macedonia. In 1913, modern Greece and her Balkan allies partitioned Macedonia. If today a portion of Macedonia belongs to Greece, it is by virtue of an illegal partition of the whole and occupation of a part of Macedonia.




http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianGreekConflict/conflict.html


http://historyofmacedonia.org/

[SrB-23Q]

You don't change place names according to who lives there.
If the area has been called Macedonia before then there's no reason to change that.
.

ORLY

then why isnt America/Australia/Canada called by some native name?

and the places in these countries also.

[hsh2]

ORLY

then why isnt America/Australia/Canada called by some native name?

and the places in these countries also.

haha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Canada

[Homer]

You don't change place names according to who lives there.
If the area has been called Macedonia before then there's no reason to change that.


Then I suggest you do your research and discover what the majority of the territory FYROM encompasses was called. Because it most certainly was NOT Macedonia.

[Mordoror]

Then I suggest you do your research and discover what the majority of the territory FYROM encompasses was called. Because it most certainly was NOT Macedonia.

interesting assessment so please enlight us and tell us how the area was walled before

and to have a well balanced parallel please tell us how was called the different parts of Greece in the same time .....

[SrB-23Q]

haha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Canada

didnt know about Canada

well now i do p-)
you learn something new every day ;-)

uze all got my point anyway so yeah :)

[chris450]

interesting assessment so please enlight us and tell us how the area was walled before

and to have a well balanced parallel please tell us how was called the different parts of Greece in the same time .....

it was called Vardaska

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/7446/229375740123b4493039.jpg

A 1939 Yugoslavia postage stamp, "Jugoslavija (i.e., land of the southern Slavs)," depicts the eight provinces of the then Yugoslavian Federation: Dravska, the northwest region fed by the Drava, an important tributary of the Danube River; Hrvatska; Vrbaska; Drinska, the western region fed by the White Drin tributary emanating from the River Drin in Albania; Dunavska, the eastern region fed by the Danube River; Hcravska; Zetsca; and Vardarska, the southernmost region crossed by the Vardar River.

in the same time the "parts of Greece" you are reffering to were called Macedonia ,as they have been called for the last 3000 years

[valtrex]

interesting assessment so please enlight us and tell us how the area was walled before

and to have a well balanced parallel please tell us how was called the different parts of Greece in the same time .....

Dear Mordoror,
I generally enjoy your posts, you're a sensible guy. However, "the words of a wise man's mouth are gracious; but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself (Ecclesiastes 10:12)".
I'd have never expected from you to become an uncritical sounding board of FYROM's absurd allegations in this forum. Macedonia is called Macedonia since ancient times, just like Thessaly, Epirus, the Peloponnese, or Crete.

[Mordoror]

thanks Chris but don't stop here ......because in that case i will (in a matter of intelectual dishonesty) come back to the time where Greece was encompassed in the province of Rumelia....

what i want to say is that the political naming and the geographical naming of a region are two different things

Obviously the area being the actual Greece or actual Fyrom where under many conquerors (from Romans to franks to Turks to Serbs to .....) boots that changed many time the names to fit the political organisation of their kingdom/empire

but geographically the area from the Vardar down to the Aegean coast and to the Pirin mountains is known to be Macedonia

that the same for several regions in Europe
Catalunya is a common region splitted between France and Spain and nobody is kicking the donkey for that for example

That why from my point of view Fyrom still have the right to be named Macedonia and that's why i am not shocked if it is in a Composite name like Northern Macedonia

[Mordoror]

@Valtrex

didnt' wanted to be rude here but just read my post above it is a explanation of how i see the things
the choice has to be done
either we refer to ancient times and then we have to decide where to stop in the come back in the time (because if we go too far Greece was not even named Greece at the beginning as France was not named France at the beginning and so on ...)

either we refer to a politically imposed name (but i think that you will not enjoy for example if somebody imposes you an name imposed by the Ottoman ruler, that's the same if you name your northern neighbourg Vardarska which was choosen by the serbian lords .....)

either we still stick to the geographical naming of the area
i have no solution and i am not a diplomat (and as i said this will not be solved on the internet)
but this last solution (for me, just me again ....) seem acceptable

[tercio67]

Dear Mordoror,
I generally enjoy your posts, you're a sensible guy. However, "the words of a wise man's mouth are gracious; but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself (Ecclesiastes 10:12)".
I'd have never expected from you to become an uncritical sounding board of FYROM's absurd allegations in this forum. Macedonia is called Macedonia since ancient times, just like Thessaly, Epirus, the Peloponnese, or Crete.

Macedonia 350 BC
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/278/locationmacedoniaanciens.th.png (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=locationmacedoniaanciens.png)

Macedonia Roman period
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4964/locationmacedoniaromanp.th.png (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=locationmacedoniaromanp.png)

Macedonia Byzantine period
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7392/locationmacedoniabyzant.th.png (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=locationmacedoniabyzant.png)

Macedonia Ottoman period
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/6223/locationmacedoniaottoma.th.png (http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=locationmacedoniaottoma.png)

It seems that Macedonia meant different things to different people in different times.
Are Greeks realy still smarting from the defeat by Philippus II, who was regarded by Greeks at that time to be a barbarian king from an barbarian country (e.g. non Greek)?

There are precedents for having the same name for real estate in separate countries, like in Belgium and the Netherlands.
Why can't this happen here?

[valtrex]

...geographically the area from the Vardar down to the Aegean coast and to the Pirin mountains is known to be Macedonia
agreed

that the same for several regions in Europe
Catalunya is a common region splitted between France and Spain and nobody is kicking the donkey for that for example
unfortunately this is the balkans and not Western Europe. Things are a bit more complicated (and dangerous) down here

That why from my point of view Fyrom still have the right to be named Macedonia and that's why i am not shocked if it is in a Composite name like Northern Macedonia
That is why I said earlier you're a sensible guy. If only FYROM's politicians were as sensible as you are. Alas!

@Valtrex
didnt' wanted to be rude here but just read my post above it is a explanation of how i see the things
the choice has to be done
either we refer to ancient times and then we have to decide where to stop in the come back in the time (because if we go too far Greece was not even named Greece at the beginning as France was not named France at the beginning and so on ...)

either we refer to a politically imposed name (but i think that you will not enjoy for example if somebody imposes you an name imposed by the Ottoman ruler, that's the same if you name your northern neighbourg Vardarska which was choosen by the serbian lords .....)

either we still stick to the geographical naming of the area
i have no solution and i am not a diplomat (and as i said this will not be solved on the internet)
but this last solution (for me, just me again ....) seem acceptable
My dear Mordoror, maybe you should consider becoming a diplomat ;)

[valtrex]

Macedonia 350 BC
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/278/locationmacedoniaanciens.th.png

(http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=locationmacedoniaanciens.png)

Macedonia Roman period
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4964/locationmacedoniaromanp.th.png

(http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=locationmacedoniaromanp.png)

Macedonia Byzantine period
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7392/locationmacedoniabyzant.th.png (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=locationmacedoniabyzant.png)

Macedonia Ottoman period
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/6223/locationmacedoniaottoma.th.png

(http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=locationmacedoniaottoma.png)

It seems that Macedonia meant different things to different people in different times.
Yes Macedonia in ancient times was a much smaller region than the Ottoman vilayet of Macedonia. Macedonia was constantly changing its borders because the name Macedonia defined an administrative region through history and not a separate ethnic group or ethnicity. The map you posted under the name "Macedonia Byzantine period" is the Byzantine Thema of Macedonia (later of Strymon) which was less important than the Thema of Thessaloniki. And although Thessaloniki historically has always been regarded as the capital of Macedonia, at the same time it was the second more important city of the Empire. Thus it formed an administrative Thema of its own. If Macedonians constituted a separate ethnic group or ethnicity inside the Empire, then to separate the people from their capital city would have been unacceptable.

Are Greeks realy still smarting from the defeat by Philippus II, who was regarded by Greeks at that time to be a barbarian king from an

barbarian country (e.g. non Greek)?
I'm sorry I do not understand what you're saying. Could you please elaborate on that? Whether Philip II was/felt Greek or not, it is irrelevant. His son, Alexander the Great, brought Greek civilization and language as far as Bactria (Afghanistan) and India (modern day Pakistan)-->Pali Yona, Indo-Greek Kingdoms etc. In 1st century BC, most of Near/Middle East spoke a Greek dialect (not a Macedonian/Greco-Macedonian one), a bit more simplified and periphrastic than Classic Greek, called Koine (ie Common) Greek.

There are precedents for having the same name for real estate in separate countries, like in Belgium and the Netherlands.
Why can't this happen here?
Unfortunately this is the balkans and not Western Europe. A simple name carries countless ethno-sociopolitical implications.

PS: Krste Petkov Misirkov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krste_Misirkov) has expressed it pretty well imho:
"We were once Bulgarians,now we don't like to be anymore"

[Mencius]

Are Greeks realy still smarting from the defeat by Philippus II, who was regarded by Greeks at that time to be a barbarian king from an barbarian country (e.g. non Greek)?


From my experience and what I've read over the years, this is the most mentioned argument from nationalists in Skopje. It is their strongest argument and yet it shows how hollow the argument is when you realize it comes from semantics and possible misinterpretations.

How does this argument weigh up when comparing it to the fact that the Macedonians participated in the Olympic games when only Hellenistic states/kingdoms used to take part? There is also the undisputable fact that Macedonians worshipped the same Hellenistic gods, and according to local beliefs in that timeline, the Macedonian royal line came from Argos. Argos was located in the Pelopenese. There is also Alexander's belief that he was descended from Achilles. Whether that is true or not is not as relevant as the fact that he believed it so.

[chris450]

despite the self-evident flaws in the argumentation that Macedonians were not as Greek as the Lacedaemonians ,the Atheneans ,the Thesalloi ,Hepirotes etc etc

The attempt by nationalists in Skopje to connect that fictious non-Greek distinct Macedonian identity to Slavs whose ancestors appeared in the region several hundred years later , puts this whole thing well within the realm of pure science fiction

[tercio67]

Editet for dodgy information



It seems that there was a Macedonia before 1913, ethnicity and language spoken have little to do with geography.

[chris450]

can you give us a link? this is a copy paste job from a FYROM propaganda site

[Mordoror]

i like how everybody try hard to bend the history to the agenda he likes the most ....

let's sum it

Fact : slavs arrived in Balkans between the 5th-8th century : hence the modern macedonians who are slavs cannot be descendant of the old day macedonians on that i agree

fact : although ancient macedonians were accepted in the Olympic games they were so lately when the aura of the old macedonian kingdom became a shadow for the "old hellenic cities". Hence the argument
when comparing it to the fact that the Macedonians participated in the Olympic games when only Hellenistic states/kingdoms used to take part? is somewhat flawed

fact :
There is also the undisputable fact that Macedonians worshipped the same Hellenistic gods. on that we agree....however the all religious thing is more complicated than that. To make it quickly the romans also worshipped the same gods than the greeks (under different names) but they were not hellens
religion is always a matter of contact, cultural assimilation or buying of what fits you the best


the Macedonian royal line came from Argos. Argos was located in the Pelopenese. There is also Alexander's belief that he was descended from Achilles. Whether that is true or not is not as relevant as the fact that he believed it so.
here comes the problem when you look at the ancient history that mix itself with legends
afterall Alexander asked himself descent of Osiris and of Vishnu (and certainly mainly for politiccal purposes to unite the population of Egypt or India under its rules but also because he was a kind of megalomaniac brought to that kind of state of mind by its mother ...)
if you want another example the fundation of Rome done byt Remulus and Remus is said to be done by old troyans descent .... do you really buy it here ?


we can see here the biggest problem in this issue : a wonderful mix from things that are questionable either historically and which interpretation is never done under the concerned period context but under the actual period context

and before somebody gives me the argument that the noble macedonian spoke greek let me remind you that it was the language of any scholar and educated people at that time (even the gallic druids spoke greek as far as in Gaul)


so if you ask the question : does the actual inhabitants of Fyrom are direct deecent of old Macedonians : the answer is no
if you ask the question : does the old macedonians were hellenes the question is still open. Some infos indicates yes, others indicates no
as always (especially when dealing with the origin of a country and history) the matter here is not so clear

[tercio67]

It was from a historical forum discussing the Balkan wars.
On revisiting that site I must admit that I was not very careful as to the source.
Mea Culpa

(PS I will edit my previous post)

[Ordie]

Macedonian and Greeks are European to me.

[Amateur]

Let me just add here that the names "Filippos" (Filip) and "Alexandros" (Alexander) are Greek names with Greek meanings. To be precise, "Filippos" means a man who likes horses ("filos"= friend, "ippos"= horse), and Alexandros a man who fights/hates/contests other men ("alex"= against, "andras"= man). How could the Macedonian kings have such names, if ancient Macedonia wasn't Greek?

And that's why the ancient geographer Strabo famously wrote "έστιν μεν ουν Ελλάς και η Μακεδονία", which translates "Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece". (Strabo, VII, Frg. 9 (Loeb, H.L. Jones)

I don't think I have to say anything more to prove that ancient Macedonians were Greeks. But again, this issue isn't about ancient history, it's about modern history and politics, and more specifically about the Skopje government irredentism, aiming at Greek Macedonia. The name is a means to that goal; and since we don't accept the goal, we will also not accept the means.

[Gentius]

Anyone keeping track on their Presidential election today?

[Mordoror]

Let me just add here that the names "Filippos" (Filip) and "Alexandros" (Alexander) are Greek names with Greek meanings. To be precise, "Filippos" means a man who likes horses ("filos"= friend, "ippos"= horse), and Alexandros a man who fights/hates/contests other men ("alex"= against, "andras"= man). How could the Macedonian kings have such names, if ancient Macedonia wasn't Greek?

again that is a simple way to see history
athough i agree that Filippos and Alexandros are Hellenic names, as i said above it was clearly a common thing to use hellenic language among the noble houses of the region and far away (look at the names used in the supposed kingdom of the golden fleece which was supposed to be in southern Crimea thus in an area were only Scythian tribes lived : the princess here is named Medea, its father is named Eetes obvisouly Hellenic names for not so hellenic people ....)
so that's not a direct proof here


And that's why the ancient geographer Strabo famously wrote "έστιν μεν ουν Ελλάς και η Μακεδονία", which translates "Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece". (Strabo, VII, Frg. 9 (Loeb, H.L. Jones)

on the other hand Demosthene just before the battle of Cheronea stated that the Macedonians were "barbarians"
That word could be read either by saying that Macedonians were not hellens or that their political system was not civilized (because tehy still used monarchy when the athenian democracy was seen as the pinnacle of civilization)

you see the interpretation depends deeply of the context and giving only a one way view of the history shows that the only interpretations used (in that case here from Greek side) is the interpretation that fit one agenda

until a clear proof of the hellenistic origin of the macedonians is not uncovered (a kind of "pierre de rossette") i will by intelectual honesty neither accept either the Fyromian's arguments nor the greeks arguments as both are questionnable under our actual knowledge

now you are right it is not a matter of ancient history but still those arguments are used by both sides to put the guilty on the other side for the tensions and status-quo

[thend]

Genetic testing from Igenea http://www.makedonika.org/processpaid.aspcontentid=ti.2001.pdf

Our results show that Macedonians are related to other Mediterraneans
and do not show a close relationship with Greeks; however
they do with Cretans (Tables 3, 4, Figs 1–3). This supports the
theory that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples
existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the
Mycaenian Greeks (10) about 2000 B.C. Other possible explanation
is that they might have shared a genetic background with the
Greeks before an hypothetical admixture between Greeks and sub-
Saharans might have occurred. The cultural, historical and genetic
identity of Macedonians is established according to our results.
However, 19th century historians focused all the culture in Greece
Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118–127 125
ignoring all the other Mediterranean cultures present in the area
long before the classical Greek one (25)


Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans
Much to our surprise, the reason why Greeks did not show a close
relatedness with all the other Mediterraneans analyzed (Tables 5, 6
and Figs 1–3) was their genetic relationship with sub-Saharan ethnic
groups now residing in Ethiopia, Sudan and West Africa (Burkina-
Fasso). Although some Greek DRB1 alleles are not completely
specific of the Greek/sub-Saharan sharing, the list of alleles (Table
5) is self-explanatory. The conclusion is that part of the Greek genetic
pool may be sub-Saharan and that the admixture has occurred
at an uncertain but ancient time...


More proof....



http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/NY%20TIMES/1947_06_08.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/NY%20TIMES/1947_04_26.jpg
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/NY%20TIMES/19150927.jpg
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/NY%20TIMES/19031014.jpg
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/NY%20TIMES/19030302.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/NY%20TIMES/19030216.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/NY%20TIMES/19020331.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/NY%20TIMES/19020322.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/NY%20TIMES/19010512.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/NY%20TIMES/18970314.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/NY%20TIMES/18970305.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/NY%20TIMES/18970206p12dy3.pnghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/NY%20TIMES/18960729.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Makedonia/Balkans18001914.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Makedonia/p.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/HeinrichKiepertmap.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Macedonia-Hellaszoom1.jpghttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/HeinrichKiepertmacedonia-graecia.jpg

[Amateur]

@ thend:
Please spare us the propaganda from Skopjan websites alleging DNA researches etc. No logical person in here, including your countryman Mordoror, questions the fact that today's inhabitants of FYROM are Slavs, and Slavs descended to the Balkans many centuries later than Alexander the Great lived. If you have an independent survey by western scientists on DNA go ahead and post it, otherwise stop posting crap.

As for the press pieces you posted, let me give you a short history lesson: after WW II, a bloody Civil War took place in Greece, when the communists tried to take hold of power and government forces fought them and defeated them. The communists were supported by Marshal Tito of communist Yugoslavia, who was the one who came up with the idea of renaming "Vardarska" (i.e. Yugoslavia's southern province) as "Macedonia" and asking for an "independent Aegean Macedonia", in order to rip Macedonia from Greece. Some slavophone villagers inside Greek territory fought alongside the communists and Tito's forces; and of course, when caught, they were executed for attempted secession, as were most communists. When the communists were defeated, they fled to southern Yugoslavia and Albania, followed by some of the slavophone villagers. Good riddance.

@ Morodoror:
Look, I could go on and on about this; I could bring up the Greek philosopher Aristoteles, a disciple of Plato and arguably the most important philosopher of all times, who was born in Stageira (today's Chalikidiki, definitely within the geographic area Macedonia) and was hired by Philip as a teacher for Alexander and his friends, the young Macedonian princes that would later fight by his side and share his empire after his death, to initiate an era called "Hellenistic"; why do you think it was called that? p-)

But since we agree this is not a matter of acient history, we should let that be and focus on the present. And the present issue is that Greece wants FYROM to adopt a name that would not imply irredentist territorial claims on the total of the geographical gregion of Macedonia, i.e. on Greek soil. And a composite name is the way to go. As simple as that.

[Mordoror]

Oh for God's Sake thend no that genetic sudy again .....

i hate when people who do understand nothing to science and the way those experiments were conduced and published quote them ........

[chris450]

Genetic testing from Igeneason ,copy-pasting every forged pic you find on propaganda pages wont help your argument

and those "genetic tests" claiming Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans...we have discussed them before,have a look (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=127163&page=6)



http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v415/n6868/full/415115b.html
(http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v415/n6868/full/415115b_r.html)

[tercio67]

Perhaps a compromise?

Macedonia will accept to be known as;
Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia

and

Greece will accept to be known as;
Former Ottoman Province of Greece

just so everybody stays miserable p-)

[Mencius]

fact : although ancient macedonians were accepted in the Olympic games they were so lately when the aura of the old macedonian kingdom became a shadow for the "old hellenic cities". Hence the argument is somewhat flawed




Can you explain again sorry? I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. You haven't explained why it's 'flawed'.

[thend]

Give me one example where we have territorial claims,you could pay compensation to all deportee families its simple as that.Its not the name that is issue you're denying the whole nation and i'm sure you know why your goverment is doing that.We have lot of proofs we can give,why your country doesn't accept double formula what do you think.Im tired all of this parody can you just leave us alone its simple as that

[Mencius]

Give me one example where we have territorial claims,you could pay compensation to all deportee families its simple as that.Its not the name that is issue you're denying the whole nation and i'm sure you know why your goverment is doing that.We have lot of proofs we can give,why your country doesn't accept double formula what do you think.Im tired all of this parody can you just leave us alone its simple as that

Thend. You missed the photograph on the first page of the thread. I'll put it here for you.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/92/080402saeproedriomakedomj0.jpg

[thend]

And??
Whats the fear??

[Amateur]

Give me one example where we have territorial claims
Here you go:
Isn't this a large chunk of Greece depicted there, exactly on the monument where your PM pays his respects?

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/92/080402saeproedriomakedomj0.jpg

And who said anything about fear? You asked for proof of territorial claims, and there it is. We don't fear you, but we sure as hell won't let such irredentism fly.


you could pay compensation to all deportee families its simple as that.
Of course not; we would pay compensation to people deported by the Greek government, but not to secessionists who lost the war and then fled by their own will to Yugoslavia.


Im tired all of this parody can you just leave us alone its simple as that
Of course we can leave you alone; alone outside NATO and the EU, alone with your Albanian population which is rising every day. Some member here proposed the name "East Albania" for FYROM, and to be honest the demographic tendency shows that's the most likely outcome in a few years, if you don't grow some brains soon p-)

[Mordoror]

@Mencius

sorry if i was unclear
AFAIK there is no mention of Macedonian sportsmen in the early Olymic Games (and those are well documented especially during the Peloponese War .... of course the writting focused for political purpose and propaganda on Spartan and Athenian sportsmen so maybe it is a flaw from the writters......)

the Macedonian sportsmen are mentionned lately especially after that Phillipe and his son united the Greek cities. So the question is : did they participate because they were true hellens, because they were then accepted as hellens because they encompassed at that time hellenic culture or because as some conquerors they imposed the presence of Macedonian sportsmen ?

i have not the answer here again

that's why i say that using that argument as a sheer 100 % proof of the hellenic origin of the Macedonian is somewhat flawed

[chris450]

So the question is : did they participate because they were true hellens, because they were then accepted as hellens because they encompassed at that time hellenic culture or because as some conquerors they imposed the presence of Macedonian sportsmen ?@ Μordoror

thats is not correct..Macedonian king Alexander A' partecipated in the olympics of 460bc among other Greeks ..460bc means around the time of the Peloponesean war ,when Athens and Sparta were the major players

earlier accounts are not available simply because we are talking about events that took place 3000 years ago.The writen sources that have reached our times are only a fraction of the ones that existed back then

[thend]

The following video shows Macedonians running away from Aegean Macedonia, trying to escape from the bombardment and retaliation from the government forces, after they won the civil war against the Democratic Army of Greece
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9TVQpxdvS4


The official Greek position on this is that the communists have abducted these GREEK children and spread them through communist countries in order to brainwash them, and then return them to Greece (probably to start a communist revolution). However, the TESTIMONIES of these people, and some of them are still very much alive, say quite the opposite: that they were running away from the bombs coming from the party that won the Greek Civil War.

Today, 60 years after the exodus of the Macedonians and 20 years since the fall of the communist regimes in Europe, Greece is still "afraid" to let the refugees back home. These people, or their children, are still forbidden to enter Greece and reclaim their land, unless they declare themselves as "Greek by genus" - which is an example of the racist laws implemented in Greece, or a form of an ethnic genocide, something we often saw during the wars in some other Balkan countries.

BTW, the official Greek stance is that there aren't any minorities in Greece, except from some small "Muslim minority"(???) living in the country's northeast. Wow, even Hitler could only dream of such a "clean" nation, this "ethnic paradise" called Greece.

[Mordoror]

@ Μordoror

thats is not correct..Macedonian king Alexander A' partecipated in the olympics of 460bc among other Greeks ..460bc means around the time of the Peloponesean war ,when Athens and Sparta were the major players

earlier accounts are not available simply because we are talking about events that took place 3000 years ago.The writen sources that have reached our times are only a fraction of the ones that existed back then

then i stand corrected for Alexander
anyway i disagree when you say that earlier account are unavailable
the Olympic events were strictly recorded since their beginning (776 BC)
especially concerning the winners

of course the record may have been biased by the political and strategical context
that's why i do not discard any possibility

[Mencius]

The following video shows Macedonians running away from Aegean Macedonia, trying to escape from the bombardment and retaliation from the government forces, after they won the civil war against the Democratic Army of Greece
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9TVQpxdvS4


The official Greek position on this is that the communists have abducted these GREEK children and spread them through communist countries in order to brainwash them, and then return them to Greece (probably to start a communist revolution). However, the TESTIMONIES of these people, and some of them are still very much alive, say quite the opposite: that they were running away from the bombs coming from the party that won the Greek Civil War.

Today, 60 years after the exodus of the Macedonians and 20 years since the fall of the communist regimes in Europe, Greece is still "afraid" to let the refugees back home. These people, or their children, are still forbidden to enter Greece and reclaim their land, unless they declare themselves as "Greek by genus" - which is an example of the racist laws implemented in Greece, or a form of an ethnic genocide, something we often saw during the wars in some other Balkan countries.

BTW, the official Greek stance is that there aren't any minorities in Greece, except from some small "Muslim minority"(???) living in the country's northeast. Wow, even Hitler could only dream of such a "clean" nation, this "ethnic paradise" called Greece.

A lot of negative things happen in war time and civillians tend to get caught up, especially in today's warfare.

If I'm correct, napalm was used for the first time in the Grammos mountains against communist forces in the civil war. A lot of people died in WW2 and Greece lost around 600,000 lives I believe. Half of them to starvation. When Bulgarian forces occupied the aegean area along with most of Thrace, they displaced 100,000 people. When the Germans left, that's when the Bulgarian troops also left.

[Montechristo]

Perhaps a compromise?

Macedonia will accept to be known as;
Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia

and

Greece will accept to be known as;
Former Ottoman Province of Greece

just so everybody stays miserable p-)

Well it's good not to write nonsense just for fun in such cases.For your ignorance FYROm was also occupied form the Ottoman empire.The region was liberated 100 years after the liberation of Greece

[tercio67]

Well it's good not to write nonsense just for fun in such cases.For your ignorance FYROm was also occupied form the Ottoman empire.The region was liberated 100 years after the liberation of Greece

Humour or humor is the tendency of particular cognitive experiences to provoke laughter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laughter) and provide amusement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusement). Many theories exist about what humour is and what social function it serves. People of most ages and cultures respond to humour. The majority of people are able to be amused, to laugh or smile at something funny, and thus they are considered to have a "sense of humour."
The term derives from the humoral medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism) of the ancient Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greeks), which stated that a mix of fluids known as humours (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): χυμός (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%23115103), chymos, literally juice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juice) or sap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sap); metaphorically, flavour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavour)) controlled human health and emotion.

A sense of humour is the ability to experience humour, although the extent to which an individual will find something humorous depends on a host of variables (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable), including geographical location (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_location), culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture), maturity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maturity_%28psychological%29), level of education (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education), intelligence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence), and context (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/context). For example, young children may possibly favour slapstick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slapstick), such as Punch and Judy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_and_Judy) puppet shows or cartoons (e.g., Tom and Jerry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_and_Jerry)). Satire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire) may rely more on understanding the target of the humour, and thus tends to appeal to more mature audiences. Nonsatirical humour can be specifically termed "recreational drollery."

Newsflash:
Humour does not equal ignorance
Calling someone ignorant because you do not share their sense of humour is however a indication of an immature mind.

[valtrex]

The following video shows Macedonians running away from Aegean Macedonia, trying to escape from the bombardment and retaliation from the government forces, after they won the civil war against the Democratic Army of Greece
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9TVQpxdvS4


The official Greek position on this is that the communists have abducted these GREEK children and spread them through communist countries in order to brainwash them, and then return them to Greece (probably to start a communist revolution). However, the TESTIMONIES of these people, and some of them are still very much alive, say quite the opposite: that they were running away from the bombs coming from the party that won the Greek Civil War.

Today, 60 years after the exodus of the Macedonians and 20 years since the fall of the communist regimes in Europe, Greece is still "afraid" to let the refugees back home. These people, or their children, are still forbidden to enter Greece and reclaim their land, unless they declare themselves as "Greek by genus" - which is an example of the racist laws implemented in Greece, or a form of an ethnic genocide, something we often saw during the wars in some other Balkan countries.
If I may say, I suggest you should study History yourself and do not rely on others, because these "other" people, might carry buggage with them, they may have an agenda.
So, a short history lesson:
-In the summer of '43 (shortly before the Greek civil war), Tito's personal envoy Svetozar Vukmanovic-Tempo met with Greek and Albanian Communist delegates at Tsotyli, Kozani (Greek-Yugoslav border). They agreed to form military units consisting of Yugoslav and "Macedonian" troops, with the one and only aim to mobilise the "Aegean Macedonians" against the Nazis and the Bulgarian fascists of Ivan-Vanco Mihailov.
-The corollary of this agreement was the creation of SNOF-Slovenomakedonski Narodno Osloboditelen Front (Slavomacedonian People's Liberation Front). However this agreement provoked a fierce reaction from the "nationalists" of the Greek KKE (Kommounistiko Komma Elladas-Greek Communist Party) with prime mover the Polit bureau member Leonidas Stringos.
-These plans were materialised with the formation of MAO (Makedoniki Apelephtherotiki Organosi-Macedonian Liberation Organization) at Edessa and SOF (Slovenomakedonski Osloboditelen Front-Slavomacedonian Liberation Front) at Phlorina, under the separationists Terpovski and Peyov. The Greek Communists reacted violently and after an armed confrontation between MAO-SOF and ELAS (Ellinikos Laikos Apeleftherotikos Stratos-Greek People's Liberation Army, the military arm of KKE) at Kastoria, MAO-SOF were virtually destroyed and Terpovski (Lazaros Zesiades) was captured and put before the firing squad for high treason.
-Late January 1944, the delegates of SNOF from Kastoria and Phlorina met to decide the fate of Macedonia. Thus, they agreed that SNOF's ultimate goal is the federalization of Greece after the German withdrawal. The plan was to form a new Greek Federation according to the Yugoslav example, consisting of the "People's Republic of Greece" and the "People's Republic of Aegean Macedonia" and later, the secession of PRAM from the federation and its incorporation into a "People's Republic of Macedonia", with the integration of Pirin Macedonia (Bulgaria) and Vardarska (today's FYROM).
-On 16 May 1944, KKE issues a command to the SNOF to dissolve and orders its top officials to be taken as prisoners. Many SNOF's officials fled to Yugoslavia. KKE called its members to confront the "Gotse Battalion", formed by Bulgarian and Yugoslav volunteers, under Elias Demakes aka Gotse.
-Early autumn 1944. KKE has lost any influence on SNOF. Many KKE members, opposed SNOF and reacted angrily. One of them was Lazarides:
"I saw nowhere the word Greece written. I saw nowhere the Greek flag hoisted. I saw at the villages of Tsotyli and Petropoulaki the Bulgarian and "Macedonian" flag. You have allowed Tempo to speak about Slavomacedonian secession. You have created SNOF. You're not fighting the enemy, you're selling up Greece!"
-On 6 October 1944, KKE orders the ELAS 28th Rgt to attack Gotse's battalion. After a short fight, Gotse's men (1000-1500 strong) fled to Yugoslavia. Their families followed later.
From 1945-1949, Greece sinks to civil war. In 1947, the central-left governent of Themistocles Sophoules, legislates against the KKE (Law 509/1947). Thousands of Greek Communists went to prison, many were executed with the charge of high treason.
According to John Koliopoulos a Communist who fought in the civil war: "The same men who welcomed the Germans crying "Hristos Voskres" (Christ is risen) while carrying the photos of King Boris of Bulgaria and Hitler, the same men, a few years later in Greece fought for Laocracy and were shouting: Down with the King"


BTW, the official Greek stance is that there aren't any minorities in Greece, except from some small "Muslim minority"(???) living in the country's northeast. Wow, even Hitler could only dream of such a "clean" nation, this "ethnic paradise" called Greece.
I would advise you to avoid even mentioning the name of Hitler regarding this...

http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/6149/bulgarian125ip9.jpg
^^
While our forefathers were fighting the Nazis at the Metaxas line, in Vardarska (today FYROM), the Germans were received with open arms. The sign reads in Bulgarian "One people, one tsardom, one tsar" (obviously referring to the Bulgarian tsardom). Doesn't it resemble the well known "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer"? Note the board presenting the "liberated and united Macedonia"....
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/92/080402saeproedriomakedomj0.jpg
...which incidently is the same one presented above^^

Same propaganda 65 years later...depressing

[Amateur]

The following video shows Macedonians running away from Aegean Macedonia, trying to escape from the bombardment and retaliation from the government forces, after they won the civil war against the Democratic Army of Greece
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9TVQpxdvS4
The official Greek position on this is that the communists have abducted these GREEK children and spread them through communist countries in order to brainwash them, and then return them to Greece (probably to start a communist revolution). However, the TESTIMONIES of these people, and some of them are still very much alive, say quite the opposite: that they were running away from the bombs coming from the party that won the Greek Civil War.
Today, 60 years after the exodus of the Macedonians and 20 years since the fall of the communist regimes in Europe, Greece is still "afraid" to let the refugees back home. These people, or their children, are still forbidden to enter Greece and reclaim their land, unless they declare themselves as "Greek by genus" - which is an example of the racist laws implemented in Greece, or a form of an ethnic genocide, something we often saw during the wars in some other Balkan countries.
BTW, the official Greek stance is that there aren't any minorities in Greece, except from some small "Muslim minority"(???) living in the country's northeast. Wow, even Hitler could only dream of such a "clean" nation, this "ethnic paradise" called Greece.

1. You better watch your tongue youngster... "ethnic genocide" is a strong word, and I didn't see you posting any proof of that. There were no mass killings, no mass rapes, no planned deportations. What happened was that many thousands of people, mainly Greek communists but also slavophone peasants who had fought alongside Greek communists (the ones you call "Macedonians") fled Greece to the communist countries in the north, when the Greek Civil War was over, either because, being devoted communists, they thought they were going to a better place / social system, or simply because they were on the losing side and they didn't want to spend sentences in prison or face judicial penalties of death (remember, it was a civil war and there were court martials, death penalties etc.). That's the cruelty of war, and civil war is the worst kind of all; but it's not genocide.

2. The story about the abducted Greek children is true, and a very sad one. The story of people running away from fighting areas and bombs is also a true but sad one. The one does not exclude the other.

3. What you call a "racist law" is an absolutely legal and usual procedure for all countries in the world: no country is obliged to accept foreign citizens on its soil and has every right to apply restrictions to foreigners (exceptions about EU citizens apply in Greece but FYROM is not an EU member state, remember? p-)). So it's only normal to ask of people who wish to return to Greece, that they accept Greek nationality. If they don't want to, then they are foreigners and they may not enter. As for claiming lands, I don't think that's possible; neither in legal nor in moral terms: they left on their own initiative, after having lost a secessionist war, and now they want to come back after 60 years? Tough luck guys, the answer is no. We 're under no obligation to take them back.

[thend]

Ok here is the latest from human right watch

The independent expert urges the Government of Greece to withdraw from the dispute
over whether there is a Macedonian or a Turkish minority in Greece and focus on protecting the
rights to self-identification, freedom of expression and freedom of association of those
communities. Their rights to minority protections must be honoured in accordance with the
Declaration on Minorities and the core international human rights treaties. Greece should comply
fully with the judgements of the European Court of Human Rights, specifically those decisions
that associations should be allowed to use the words “Macedonian” and “Turkish” in their names
and to express their ethnic identities freely.
http://www.florina.org/news/2009/march05_e.pdf

42. In the 1920s and 30s laws required the replacement of non-Greek names of towns, villages,
rivers and mountains with Greek names. The family names of the Macedonian-speaking
population were also required to be changed to Greek names. Individuals seeking to re-instate
Macedonian family names have had their petitions refused by authorities on administrative
grounds. Community representatives note that traditional names continue to be in common usage
and call for reinstatement and the official usage of a dual nomenclature e.g. Florina/Lerin

44. Community representatives highlight discriminatory laws affecting thousands who fled
Greece during the Civil War (1946-1949) who were stripped of their citizenship and property. A
1982 Ministerial Decision (Law no. 106841) stated that “Free to return to Greece are all Greek
by Genus who during the civil war of 1946-1949 and because of it have fled abroad as political
refugees”. This decision excludes those identifying as ethnic Macedonians and is therefore
considered discriminatory. Law no. 1540 of 1985 allowed political exiles to reclaim confiscated property, again establishing that only “Greeks by Genus” qualify. Those claiming Macedonian
identity allegedly experience difficultly obtaining visas for visits to Greece to see relatives or
attend funerals. The Greek authorities respond that visas are granted without problems and that
pensioners receive their visas gratis.

@ Amateur: read the valtrex post and agree if there exist "macedonians" (slavophone peasants )before or not
Makedoniki Apelephtherotiki Organosi-Macedonian Liberation Organization
Slovenomakedonski Osloboditelen Front-Slavomacedonian Liberation Front

[Mordoror]

Hum
easy with the "third reich references" here

first because this picture was already used to accuse the macedonians from Fyrom to be Nazi symathisers ..... and sorry but hitting under the belt like that (especially when like me you have a family member who died fighting the germans) is difficult to swallow

secondary the picture is written in bulgarian, not in macedonian
and it was an easy play for the nazis to play on nationalists dreams in that region of Europe, especially among their already allies

until now the discussion was somewhat cordial and respectful as far as possible
gentlemen, let's no make each other blood boil by out of topic bad references

[valtrex]

@ Amateur: read the valtrex post and agree if there exist "macedonians" (slavophone peasants )before or not
Makedoniki Apelephtherotiki Organosi-Macedonian Liberation Organization
Slovenomakedonski Osloboditelen Front-Slavomacedonian Liberation Front
Oh, I think you understood what you wanted to understand. I think you're not willing to learn or to find out what is the other party's opinion, you're just accepting only what it meets your own agenda. Read well and again my friend, read again

[Montechristo]

Humour or humor is the tendency of particular cognitive experiences to provoke laughter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laughter) and provide amusement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusement). Many theories exist about what humour is and what social function it serves. People of most ages and cultures respond to humour. The majority of people are able to be amused, to laugh or smile at something funny, and thus they are considered to have a "sense of humour."
The term derives from the humoral medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism) of the ancient Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greeks), which stated that a mix of fluids known as humours (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): χυμός (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%23115103), chymos, literally juice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juice) or sap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sap); metaphorically, flavour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavour)) controlled human health and emotion.

A sense of humour is the ability to experience humour, although the extent to which an individual will find something humorous depends on a host of variables (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable), including geographical location (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_location), culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture), maturity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maturity_%28psychological%29), level of education (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education), intelligence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence), and context (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/context). For example, young children may possibly favour slapstick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slapstick), such as Punch and Judy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_and_Judy) puppet shows or cartoons (e.g., Tom and Jerry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_and_Jerry)). Satire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire) may rely more on understanding the target of the humour, and thus tends to appeal to more mature audiences. Nonsatirical humour can be specifically termed "recreational drollery."

Newsflash:
Humour does not equal ignorance
Calling someone ignorant because you do not share their sense of humour is however a indication of an immature mind.

Indeed we do not share common humor.I prefer the smart ones.

[thend]

I'm reading and trying to find common solution,agrement or whatever but i will mind your facts when you will consider mine ones.Have you read the human right watch report,comments?

[tercio67]

Indeed we do not share common humor.I prefer the smart ones.

How about that, we agree on something. :)

[Montechristo]

Ok here is the latest from human right watch

The independent expert urges the Government of Greece to withdraw from the dispute
over whether there is a Macedonian or a Turkish minority in Greece and focus on protecting the
rights to self-identification, freedom of expression and freedom of association of those
communities. Their rights to minority protections must be honoured in accordance with the
Declaration on Minorities and the core international human rights treaties. Greece should comply
fully with the judgements of the European Court of Human Rights, specifically those decisions
that associations should be allowed to use the words “Macedonian” and “Turkish” in their names
and to express their ethnic identities freely.
http://www.florina.org/news/2009/march05_e.pdf
...


First of all the so-called Turkish minority was named after the Treaty of Lausanne as Muslim minority.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne#Agreements
In the same time there was a Greek minority in Constantinople,in tenedos and imvros who unlike the Muslim one faced atrocities from the Turks i.e. the Pogroms of 1955 and barely exists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_Pogrom
Moreover there used to be a Greek minority in the region of FYROm.Where is it now?There is no need to mention the expel of the 60's when you forced Greek origin people to abandon their homes.As for the change of names, that's silly.Didn't you change the local Greek names to your own?Don't you force the remaining Greeks to change their names to Slavic ones?Hadn't the Turks done the same?What about that?As for the acceptance of the expatriate,surely it must had happened in the way it did.Why should we accept former traitors?Did you accept the expatriated Greeks form the 1913 and 1920?Monastiri was a rich Greek city before 1913 but when Yugoslavia took her,all the Greeks were forced to leave.The same happened to the Greeks to the whole region of Pelagonia.Shouldn't we also talk about that issue?

[Montechristo]

How about that, we agree on something. :)
That's a good start!We should keep it on!

[Amateur]

Have you read the human right watch report,comments?

In fact I do have some comments:
1. I don't know which "independent expert" you 're talking about, what his mandate was and by whom, and why their views, if not adopted by the United Nations, should bind any state.
2. Even that "independent expert" reserves his judgment as to whether there are "turkish" or "macedonian" minorities in Greece and says that Greece should focus on protecting the rights of those communities... which Greece does, to a full extent. For instance, you should know that a political party promoting the "cause of the macedonian minority", called "Rainbow" (Ουράνιο Τόξο) was founded in September 1998, and ran in the 2004 elections. It received 2,955 votes in the whole region of Greek Macedonia - which should be about 0,1%... That's not a minority, that's some people being loud.
3. On point 42: Indeed there was a "hellenization" process in Greek Macedonia during the '20s and '30s but it had nothing to do with eliminating "macedonian" identity (which was non-existent until 1945), but rather with renaming places where Turks and Bulgarians had legally left and Greeks legally resettled (from Turkey), due to the population exchanges that took place after the Balkan wars and the Greek-Turkish war of 1922. So your argument is flawed.
4. On point 44: let me say it again: I see nothing wrong in stripping somebody of his citizenship and property, if they took up arms against their own country, fought alongside a communist rebellion, delibarately fled to neighbour countries on their own will, and still nurish hostile feelings against their native country. And let me also add as a lawyer, there is no rule in national or international law that would oblige any country to take such citizens back. If you start a war and lose it, don't blame the winners for keeping the spoils. Clear enough for you?

[Mordoror]

just two remarks

the game "it's not me who began it's the other boy" sounds a little childish
so the who's expelled who is not the matter here
point 1- greeks communists where expelled to Yougoslavia after the civil war : that's a fact
that some of thelm (or their descents) are heinous against their former country could be understandable from a "normal process in a human mind" (although i personnaly disagree with such general behaviour)
so yes some of them are lobbying and have an impact on the bilateral relationship between Greece and Fyrom

point 2 :
Moreover there used to be a Greek minority in the region of FYROm.Where is it now?There is no need to mention the expel of the 60's when you forced Greek origin people to abandon their homes.As for the change of names, that's silly.Didn't you change the local Greek names to your own?Don't you force the remaining Greeks to change their names to Slavic ones?
the use of the word "you" is misplaced
the Tito's communist regim maybe has done that .... but blaming the actual inhabitants of Macedonia/Fyrom for that is an easy shortcut

point 3 :
"macedonian" identity (which was non-existent until 1945) that's where we somewhat disagree
the 1905 Krusevo revolution was done under a macedonian consciousness
although unclear, although encompassing slavs, rumelians, greeks and aromanians, although not defined geographically it was the beginning of a macedonian identity (that of course needed time to mature)
during a liberation war it is always like that .... national identity take time to set up
but it was the very beginning

point 4 : unfortunately population resettlment were regular events after the several war in the Balkans. Calling it a legally action is some kind of dark humor
It was done because of military enforcment and military results. Being not any war, the populations would have not moved of their own

[chris450]

what do you mean by "military enforcement" mordoror? why was the military involved ?

did a communist armed rebelion have anything to do with it? the particular "population" didnt just find itself in the middle of the war..it started the bloody war by picking a rifle and trying to overthrow a democratically elected government and carve up the Greek state

they lost the right to evoke "the law" when they picked up that rifle..tough luck

[Montechristo]

just two remarks
point 2 :
the use of the word "you" is misplaced
the Tito's communist regim maybe has done that .... but blaming the actual inhabitants of Macedonia/Fyrom for that is an easy shortcut

I know it's misplaced but there is no need to comment on it and I do not think it changes what I've written.

[Mordoror]

what do you mean by "military involvement" mordoror? why was the military involved ?

did a communist armed rebelion have anything to do with it? the particular "population" didnt just find itself in the middle of the war..it started the bloody war by picking a rifle and trying to overthrow a democratically elected government and carve up the Greek state

they lost the right to evoke "the law" when they picked up that rifle..tough luck

sorry Chris we misunderstood each other here
when i was talking about military involvment i was refering to the exchange of population that happened in 1905/1913/1917-1918/1922 (unrest in the Monastir villayet/first and second balkan/first world war and aftermath/greco-turkish war)
during every such war civilian populations were removed and restled by the will of the winners or the intervention of the "great powers"

[chris450]

my bad then ,i thought you were refferering to the greek civil war

[Amateur]

@ Mordoror: although I disagree on many points with you I must give you this, you 're honest and help the discussion proceed constructively. I think we have reached the crux of the matter now, and as we agreed before it has nothing to do with ancient history - let me explain:


just two remarks
the game "it's not me who began it's the other boy" sounds a little childish
so the who's expelled who is not the matter here
point 1- greeks communists where expelled to Yougoslavia after the civil war : that's a fact
that some of thelm (or their descents) are heinous against their former country could be understandable from a "normal process in a human mind" (although i personnaly disagree with such general behaviour)
so yes some of them are lobbying and have an impact on the bilateral relationship between Greece and Fyrom
First of all, I will insist that Greek communists (including a portion of slavophones or "macedonians" as you would name them) were actually not expelled, but most of them simply fled across the border to the north, since the final battles were fought on their mountainous strongholds close to the border. If caught by the Greek Army, they would usually face jail or firing squad - not expulsion.
But the main, and most crucial, point is your words that I have coloured in red. I absolutely agree on those remarks, and I think that's the root of the problem. I also agree that their stance towards Greece is "understandable from a normal process in a human mind". However "understandable" is not the same as "justifiable"... again I say, they chose sides in a bloody civil war, they lost, and they fled... They may not like their current situation, but in fact, it was their own choice.


point 3 : that's where we somewhat disagree
the 1905 Krusevo revolution was done under a macedonian consciousness
although unclear, although encompassing slavs, rumelians, greeks and aromanians, although not defined geographically it was the beginning of a macedonian identity (that of course needed time to mature)
during a liberation war it is always like that .... national identity take time to set up but it was the very beginning
Well my impression of these events is that there was a good deal of Bulgarian influence there; we Greeks have always regarded the slavic element in Macedonia during the turn of the century and until 1945, as a part of Bulgarian influence (which was Greece's main opponent when it came to succeeding the declining Ottoman Empire in the area of Macedonia). I wouldn't discard completely the presence of an indigenous "slavomacedonian" sentiment in some areas during the beginning of the 20th century... but as I said I think Bulgarian influence was prevailing. And when Greece defeated Bulgaria and took hold of the areas of Macedonia and Thrace, the effort to "hellenize" them was mainly directed against Bulgarian influence. To put things in perspective, let me add that the "Metaxas line" forts that faced the German invasion in 1941 had initially been built to protect those areas from Bulgaria.


point 4 : unfortunately population resettlment were regular events after the several war in the Balkans. Calling it a legally action is some kind of dark humor
It was done because of military enforcment and military results. Being not any war, the populations would have not moved of their own

There is a huge difference between resettling populations during a war or as part of war (in which case there are many atrocities) and resettling them peacefully after a war, as a result of a treaty that ended the war. The latter case includes human pain and tragedy too, of course, but it is not genocide and it is legal, in terms of international law.

As I said I think we have reached a good level of understanding here and I wish I could continue this discussion, but I have an early day tomorrow. Good night, gents.

[Homer]

I'm reading and trying to find common solution,agrement or whatever but i will mind your facts when you will consider mine ones.Have you read the human right watch report,comments?

Be a lad and post some human rights reports on FYROM and their treatement of minorities...specifically the Roma..

Didn't the Albanians bring FYROM to the brink of a full blown civil war over their rights?

Catch my drift?

[Vorian]

Guys we have been all over this before in a zillion threads. Give it a rest will you?

[Flamming_Python]

You know these people you guys call 'Slavomacedonians' could quite conceivably be the original Macedonians at least in part. Ethnicity and Linguistic identity are 2 different things, it is quite conceivable for Slavs to have migrated towards the area later and their language having become dominant. This is possible even without the Slavs having to assimilate the other populations in the area or even be the numerical majority; much the same happened in Romania where a non-Slavic language became dominant despite there being more Slavs there than anyone else (more or less the same thing happened in Hungary too), or for that matter in Ireland where English became dominant even while there were barely any Englishmen there at all. Hell even Russia takes its name from a Viking/Varangarian tribe; there's nothing more Slavic about Russia's name then there is about Macedonia's.

I'm not saying this is what happened, just a possibility; this whole thing looks like a very sensitive issue that was inflated way past its prime for political usage by both sides, and it is to do with a period of history I know little about.

I can't take sides between Macedonians and Greeks I love you both :hug:
Can't we all just get along? :D

[Homer]

You know these people you guys call 'Slavomacedonians' could quite conceivably be the original Macedonians at least in part. Ethnicity and Linguistic identity are 2 different things, it is quite conceivable for Slavs to have migrated towards the area later and their language having become dominant. This is possible even without the Slavs having to assimilate the other populations in the area or even be the numerical majority; much the same happened in Romania where a non-Slavic language became dominant despite there being more Slavs there than anyone else (more or less the same thing happened in Hungary too), or for that matter in Ireland where English became dominant even while there were barely any Englishmen there at all. Hell even Russia takes its name from a Viking/Varangarian tribe; there's nothing more Slavic about Russia's name then there is about Macedonia's.

I'm not saying this is what happened, just a possibility; this whole thing looks like a very sensitive issue that was inflated way past its prime for political usage by both sides, and it is to do with a period of history I know little about.

I can't take sides between Macedonians and Greeks I love you both :hug:
Can't we all just get along? :D

Sure they are. And I'm an original Indigenous Australian from Greece.
:bash:

[V.I.D.]

How about that, we agree on something. :)

Perhaps he did not find it funny, because this is a rather sensitive issue for some people. You know, for example the way you feel about having a small ***** and the fact that your wife is cheating on you.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. It's just humor after all.

[chris450]

this is a Balkan thread..you know wars have started over this **** :)

anyway its not tercio's fault his joke was bad..he just hangs around in the wrong kinds of forums ,right tercio? p-)

regarding the topic at hand ,it seems that ultranationalist Ivanof is currently ahead in the presidential elections .His campaign was centered around nationalist and anti-greek rhetoric ,meaning that unfortunately we wont be seeing a solution anytime soon .

[Paya]

I noticed some Greek members seem to think that Vardarska was a name for today's FYROM when it was part of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, later renamed Yugoslavia.

The country was made up of administrative regions called banovinas, for example, Zetska banovina, Dunavska banovina, Vardarska banovina, etc... However, Zetska, Dunavska and Vardarska and such are not nouns, but adjectives, in the case of what is now FYROM, an adjective reffering to the river Vardar. So, the full translation of the name would be Vardar banovina, or Vardar banship (the administrator held the title of ban, ****ounced "baan").

Also, the borders of the banovinas never corresponded with ethnical, cultural, or historical borders, but were creted with economical feasability in mind.

In post-Balkan wars Serbia, the region which is now FYROM was called Маћедонија, or Maćedonija in Latin sript,, which means Macedonia, but the name had strictly geographical implications. It was also, along with Raska/Sandzak and Kosovo known as Old Serbia, since the medieval Serbian state was formed and/or had a long presence in those regions.

[tercio67]

Perhaps he did not find it funny, because this is a rather sensitive issue for some people. You know, for example the way you feel about having a small ***** and the fact that your wife is cheating on you.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. It's just humor after all.

I actualy smiled, no laughed, when reading that rofl

But i see that some things are considered too sensitive and will leave you guys to it.

Regards,
Tercio67

[SrB-23Q]

қымыз + topic + whole Balkan situation. :):)

You might understand that you might not.


just the Balkan situation is enough to sum everything up p-)

[Montechristo]

Perhaps he did not find it funny, because this is a rather sensitive issue for some people. You know, for example the way you feel about having a small ***** and the fact that your wife is cheating on you.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. It's just humor after all.
I guess you speak from your own personal opinion!:):):)roflroflrofl

[valtrex]

You know these people you guys call 'Slavomacedonians' could quite conceivably be the original Macedonians at least in part. Ethnicity and Linguistic identity are 2 different things, it is quite conceivable for Slavs to have migrated towards the area later and their language having become dominant. This is possible even without the Slavs having to assimilate the other populations in the area or even be the numerical majority; much the same happened in Romania where a non-Slavic language became dominant despite there being more Slavs there than anyone else (more or less the same thing happened in Hungary too), or for that matter in Ireland where English became dominant even while there were barely any Englishmen there at all. Hell even Russia takes its name from a Viking/Varangarian tribe; there's nothing more Slavic about Russia's name then there is about Macedonia's.

I'm not saying this is what happened, just a possibility; this whole thing looks like a very sensitive issue that was inflated way past its prime for political usage by both sides, and it is to do with a period of history I know little about.

I can't take sides between Macedonians and Greeks I love you both :hug:
Can't we all just get along? :D

The problem is not whether the people of FYROM are or not Slavs or if they are descendents of ancient Macedonians or not. The problem we have with the hardcore nationalists of the FYROM diaspora and the hardline chauvinists of Skopje is that they insist they are THE Macedonians, the true ancient Macedonians, the sole descendants of Philip II and Alexander the Great. They even forbid me, a Macedonian, born and raised in Thessaloniki (a city named after Alexander the Great's sister and founded in 315 BC by King Cassander), with Greek national identity to be called Macedonian! They have constructed some vague theory of "enslaved true Macedonians" under the Greeks and Bulgarians, that Macedonia is divided into three parts--> the Aegean Macedonia which suffers under the Greek oppressive boot, the Pirin Macedonia enslaved by the Bulgarians and the glorious-beacon of Liberty-only "true" Macedonia in the region, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (the Rep. of Macedonia as they call it). True, they occupy parts of ancient, medieval and Ottoman Macedonia, true they might even-some of them-be descendants of the ancient Macedonians. However, they speak a South Slavic language, the overwhelming majority of them are Slavs and historically speaking, it is impossible to be ancient Macedonians because the latter were not Slavs! The Slavs came to the region in the 5th-7th cen AD. Even if the ancient Macedonians were not pure, 100% Greeks, but a mix of Phrygian-Illyrian-Greek tribes this is also irrelevant, simply because by the 6th-5th century BC they were completely Hellenized and spoke a Northern Greek dialect. The problem is that in order to construct this "ancient Macedonian identity", they have created friction with the Bulgarians too, by appropriating their national heroes, claiming that they're Macedonians and not Bulgarians. In short, we Greeks feel that we're witnessing an attempt of "cultural imperialism" by the Slavs of Skopje, in the region.


Guys we have been all over this before in a zillion threads. Give it a rest will you?
Agreed, we have been all over this again and again in vague. This topic has been discussed ad nauseam

[V.I.D.]

I guess you speak from your own personal opinion!:):):)roflroflrofl

Ooops, you got me there. It's good that Tercio is also good sports about it.

:)

[Mordoror]

they have created friction with the Bulgarians too, by appropriating their national heroes, claiming that they're Macedonians and not Bulgarians.
@Valtrex
the fact here is who appropriated who's national heroes
as such for example even if the Bulgarian says that Pitu Guli were bulgarians, they were born/raised and died in actual Macedonia/Fyrom
things are never so simple


They even forbid me, a Macedonian, born and raised in Thessaloniki (a city named after Alexander the Great's sister and founded in 315 BC by King Cassander), with Greek national identity to be called Macedonian!


hum aside in moronic nationalist mouths (for who i have not very much respect) i have never read or seen that ....


the more i read the more i understand something

Well my impression of these events is that there was a good deal of Bulgarian influence there; we Greeks have always regarded the slavic element in Macedonia during the turn of the century and until 1945, as a part of Bulgarian influence (which was Greece's main opponent when it came to succeeding the declining Ottoman Empire in the area of Macedonia). I wouldn't discard completely the presence of an indigenous "slavomacedonian" sentiment in some areas during the beginning of the 20th century... but as I said I think Bulgarian influence was prevailing. And when Greece defeated Bulgaria and took hold of the areas of Macedonia and Thrace, the effort to "hellenize" them was mainly directed against Bulgarian influence. To put things in perspective, let me add that the "Metaxas line" forts that faced the German invasion in 1941 had initially been built to protect those areas from Bulgaria.

peoples in ths areas were always pawn for greater powers (and still are)
and what i see above is a kind of fear that for example Macedonia/Fyrom could be a beach-head of some kind of Slavic influence (Bulgarian for instance) over the very unique in this area Greek culture
I am right ?. Because if it is the case i will just give the following hints : Fyromians slavs do not want to be Bulgarians (except a traitorous minority) or Serbians (during a period not so far they were called Souther serbs by their northern neighbours) or Albanians (who make enough trouble in the area.... and will continue to make trouble to all of us being serbians/macedonians or greeks...i am deeply convinced of that)
they want to cut the influence of their neigbourgs. That country and its people suffered too much historically during any major conflict between the Balkan powers (remember that this area of the blakn was one where were done most of the conflicts and battles in the region since the romans ....) and from the will of the "great powers"
the way choosen to get ridden of that is maybe not the best (personnaly waiting for the G Bush administration support was for me not a very wise move) but it can explain some things

[cortico]

This is related to the thread's title:

"We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian."
"There is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country."

[FYROM's Ambassador to Canada, Gyordan Veselinov in an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, 24 February 1999]

This is how Kiro Gligorov, the former President of ex-Vardarska Banovina (current FYROM) identified himself, and his compatriots:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4


He was nearly killed in an assassination attempt by an ultranationalist.

It is true that our neighbors are experiencing an identity crisis fueled by Gruevski's ultranationalist government. I cannot blame the average FYROMian though. I can only blame those who launched an unprecedent propaganda many decades ago, in order to forge a fake national identity and impose it on peoples of Slavo-Bulgarian decent.

If my parents had been telling me that i am an Australian aborigine, thats exactly they way i would have though of myself today. But who could blame me for that?

[Dolph BG]

The problem is not whether the people of FYROM are or not Slavs or if they are descendents of ancient Macedonians or not. The problem we have with the hardcore nationalists of the FYROM diaspora and the hardline chauvinists of Skopje is that they insist they are THE Macedonians, the true ancient Macedonians, the sole descendants of Philip II and Alexander the Great. They even forbid me, a Macedonian, born and raised in Thessaloniki (a city named after Alexander the Great's sister and founded in 315 BC by King Cassander), with Greek national identity to be called Macedonian! They have constructed some vague theory of "enslaved true Macedonians" under the Greeks and Bulgarians, that Macedonia is divided into three parts--> the Aegean Macedonia which suffers under the Greek oppressive boot, the Pirin Macedonia enslaved by the Bulgarians and the glorious-beacon of Liberty-only "true" Macedonia in the region, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (the Rep. of Macedonia as they call it). True, they occupy parts of ancient, medieval and Ottoman Macedonia, true they might even-some of them-be descendants of the ancient Macedonians. However, they speak a South Slavic language, the overwhelming majority of them are Slavs and historically speaking, it is impossible to be ancient Macedonians because the latter were not Slavs! The Slavs came to the region in the 5th-7th cen AD. Even if the ancient Macedonians were not pure, 100% Greeks, but a mix of Phrygian-Illyrian-Greek tribes this is also irrelevant, simply because by the 6th-5th century BC they were completely Hellenized and spoke a Northern Greek dialect. The problem is that in order to construct this "ancient Macedonian identity", they have created friction with the Bulgarians too, by appropriating their national heroes, claiming that they're Macedonians and not Bulgarians. In short, we Greeks feel that we're witnessing an attempt of "cultural imperialism" by the Slavs of Skopje, in the region.


Agreed, we have been all over this again and again in vague. This topic has been discussed ad nauseam
Great post,I fully agree with you.Majority of the people in FYROM are bulgarian.64 years brainwashed to be "macedonians" by Tito.Its crazy on there part to claim otherwise.All historians around the world know it.Im verry happy about the firm Greek policy against there claims.I wish our(BG) politicians were the same.Its unbelievable the things they keep doing.Stealing our identity day and night.We were to first to recognize them in order to protect them from eventual Yugo retaliation.The info against them is overwhelming.If they keep stealing identity and worst continue with there "territorial" claim will never have peace with BG,GR or AL.FYROM could start the next Balkan war,I pray this doesn't happen.The bulgarian population its sick and tired of there and we are getting our voice herd.Currently 60 000+ FYROM residents have Bulgarian Citizenship and keep rising.And form "macedonian" to become citizen of BG he/she need to prove blood immediate relative(mother,father,grandparents etc).Even there former PM is BG citizen.FYROM is populatet with bulgarians sinse 7 century AD and was included in the Bulgarian territory around 811 AD(Khan Krum).
this is very intersting book,by the way it was Prohibited in FYROM for a while:
Bozhidar Dimitrov's first book, The Ten Lies of Macedonism (2003), is a polemical statement of a Bulgarian national perspective against the ideology of "Macedonism", i.e. the form of ethnic Macedonian nationalism that asserts a deep-rooted ethnic distinction between Macedonians and Bulgarians. The book has caused considerable controversy and criticism from Macedonian sources. Dimitrov asserts that it has nevertheless reached best-seller status in Macedonia.[1]
Among the "10 lies" described by Dimitrov are the notion that contemporary Macedonians are descendants of ancient Macedonians; that Macedonians are "pure Slavs" distinct from Bulgarians, who are "Tatars"; that medieval figures like Saints Cyril and Methodius were Macedonians; and that early 20th century revolutionary movements such as the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO) worked for a "Macedonian" national goal. [2]. The Macedonian language version is also freely available online.

[Dolph BG]

Thats chapter 1 of the book.Its total of 10 chapters.Im still looking for more english translated chapters:
First Chapter: "First Lie: Contemporary Macedonia and Macedonian people - heirs of the ancient Macedonia and the ancient Macedonians."
The contemporary Macedonia and the contemporary Macedonian people are claimed to be heirs of the ancient Macedonia and the ancient Macedonians by the Makedonists.


The historical science confirmed long ago that the ancient Macedonians are a Greek tribe that was a part of the Greek ethnic unit and which territory until IV B.C. was in nowadays Northern Greece. On the territory of Vardar Macedonia and Northern Greece existed a small state with monarchic government, populated with ancient Macedonians, Thracians and Illyrians, and ruled by kings and aristocracy with Greek names. Even in the ancient times, there was a dispute, caused by political reasons, if the ancient Macedonians were Greeks or non-Greeks. One is clear - they were not Slavs, what is the origin of nowadays population of Vardar Macedonia, and that came in the Balkans in VI c. a. D. - that is after thousand years. And the political reasons about the dispute in the ancient times if the Macedonians were Greeks or not were created in the time of the Macedonian king Philip II that decided to unite the divided into hundreds towns-states Greek world. Philip II and his son Alexander the Great not only succeeded to do it, but they conquered the whole Balkan peninsula, and after that Asia Minor and the Middle East.

The created enourmosly great state disintegrated after the death of Alexander the Great in 323 b.C. into different kingdoms. Kings became the colonels of Alexander the Great, that gave birth of new dinasties. Macedonia returned into its previous borders, and in 167 b. C. was occupied by the Romans. The population of Macedonia that survived the bloody wars with the Romans had the fate of the other ancient people in the Balkans - Thracians Tribals, Illyrians. Their numbers were decreased in the attacks of the barbaric tribes without mercy. In a period of 400 years between the middle if III c and the middle of VII c. a. D. theywere cleansed from the Balkan peninsula after the invasions of Goths, Huns, Avars, Slavs and proto-Bulgars. Every two or three years the barbaric tribes came from the nowadays Russian-Ukrainian stepes, and Romanian plates, and invaded the lands south of Danube river. They killed the men, took as slaves women and children, took the cattle, and burned the villages of the native population. The ancient people that survived escaped in panic into the towns in the South - Constantinople and Thessaloniki, that were never captured. In their place settled part of the barbaric tribes, that obtained from the Roman authorities a statute of federates (allies). But they were again driven away from the next waves of barbaric attacks.

In the end of VI c. a. D. the term "Macedonia" completely disappeared from the chronicles and historical documents for denoting the population in the lands of the ancient Macedonia. Instead, from VI c. to XVI c. a. D. as Macedonia has been called the territory between Adrianopolis (Odrin/Edirne) and Constantinople. The population there was called Macedonians. And the ancient Macedonia was called with other names -Kutmichevitsa, Kerasimia. It is evident that the survived ancient population of ancient Macedonia was transferred into the wealthy planes of todays Eastern Thrace. The authorities of the Eastern Roman Empire - Byzantium decided that they cannot protect the ancient Macedonian provinces and transferred the population into the beautiful planes under the walls of the capital of Byzantium. That wasdone with purpose, the transferred population to protect Constantinople in the case of attacks, and also to be a source of labor and to produce grains and food for the million of Constantinople inhabitants. That transferred population was with Greek consciousness and remained there in the lands of todays Turkish Thrace (together with Bulgarians and Turks) until 1922, when it was transferred into nowadays Greece.

That is the history for the fate of the ancient Macedonians, confirmed by thousands of European, American, and even Bulgarian and Russian historians.

The ancient Macedonians have not anything common with the population of nowadays Vardar Macedonia. But that was not an obstacle for the supporters of Makedonism to claim, that they were direct heirs of the ancient Macedonians, and also to steal the name of the people and the state.

And the symbol of Alexander the Great - the 16-points star - to declare as a coat of arms of the new state. Indeed later the former President of Macedonia Kiro Gligorov declared that the contemporary Macedonians have nothing common with the ancient Macedinians. Then why was necessary to steal symbols and names from the ancient Greek history and in such a way to endanger the international recognition of the new state? The thesis for the ancient population along Vardar river continies to be exploited even nowadays by influential circles in the Republic of Macedonia. Because of that it is not recognized with its constitutional name by the U. N.

There it is accepted with the strange and non-appropriate name FYROM.

[Uboj]

i agree with the Greeks on this one.
i mean Slavs came to the Balkans in the 5th century AD
Ancient Macedonia was around 300 BC, roughly 700 years before Slavs came to the Balkans.
So todays Macedonia has no right to just call its self Macedonia.

No surpirse you agree with the greeks p-)

[SrB-23Q]

No surpirse you agree with the greeks p-)

read the rest of the post


and Serbs have much more in common with Macedonians (Yugo) then Greeks, so yes i would say it is a surprise if you look at it that way.

im just going with what i think is right, by history anyway