AIG bonus outrage has employees living in fear

[Ominae]

Something related to the AIG bonuses that made a lot of Americans pissed. Now AIG personnel are fearing for their lives...

By JOHN CHRISTOFFERSEN, Associated Press Writer John Christoffersen, Associated Press Writer – 2 hrs 34 mins ago




FAIRFIELD, Conn. – Pillars of the community are now pariahs fearing for their safety in a ritzy area of Connecticut home to many executives at American International Group Inc., hit with a backlash over bonuses it paid to top brass even as it accepted federal bailout money.

The payouts to executives appear to have helped put a face on the economic struggles the country faces, and the anger targeting AIG is palpable. Death threats have been pouring in since the brouhaha broke, the company said, and its workers are taking no chances.

"It's scary," one executive said, speaking on condition of anonymity because he feared retribution. "People are very, very nervous for their security."

The financial products division is in Wilton in Fairfield County, and many of the company's leaders live in large homes on the "Gold Coast," an area known more for golf courses and sweeping views of Long Island Sound than for the police cars that now regularly patrol the well-kept streets.

Corporate officials advised employees in a memo posted on Gawker.com to avoid wearing the company logo, in an effort to keep from drawing attention. Workers were also urged to travel in pairs at night and park in well-lit areas.

And typifying the preoccupation with the AIG payouts, a busload of activists plans to drive by executives' houses Saturday in an attempt to deliver letters highlighting the strife of ordinary families in the recession and seeking solutions for economic recovery.

AIG said Friday that at least three executives who received bonuses planned to return the money, including James Haas and Doug Poling, both residents of Fairfield County.

"However someone may feel about the appropriateness of the retention payments, there is nothing appropriate about the threats that people have made to and about employees," company spokesman Mark Herr said in a statement. Haas and Poling have not responded to requests for comment from The Associated Press.

The Polings help out charities including a homeless shelter, theaters and a school, according to The Connecticut Post. At the house, a large white Colonial on a cul-de-sac with all the trappings of suburban prosperity — green shutters, a wood-shingled roof and an invisible fence for dogs — a police car pulled up Friday afternoon and talked to a security guard.

Officer Joe Kalson said that he drives by two or three times a day as of late and that other officers patrol the area, as well.

Organizers of the bus protest noted that there are no plans to trespass and that only a small group planned to get off the bus at each stop.

The protest is an attempt to let people suffering from loss of jobs or homes tell their stories directly to AIG executives, said organizer Jon Green, director of Connecticut Working Families, a coalition of labor unions and other groups.

"There is a human cost to the economic meltdown that we're experiencing," Green said.

Security companies in New York say the financial crisis has created brisk business in everything from bomb-sniffing dogs to bodyguards for executives. The firms didn't want to identify the companies for security reasons.

Pat Timlin, president of the Michael Stapleton Associates, which provides dog teams, said some companies are reacting to the negative atmosphere surrounding Wall Street firms.

"These are people used to living private lives, and are now faced with publicity and attention, often negative attention, and they're worried and responding to that," Timlin said.

Tim Horner, the managing director at Kroll Inc. security company, said the financial industry is taking any perceived risk much more seriously. He has seen an increase on the human resources side of security from companies concerned about hostile laid-off employees.

He has also seen more companies reacting to the very public criticism of once very private companies like AIG.

"There are corporations that have been spotlighted as those responsible or whatever, where they weren't before, and it's a concern," he said. "What's going on here is the stress that individuals and corporations are facing, given a downturn economy. The problems are highlighted more during this time."

Horner said AIG seems to be responding prudently to a corporate security risk.

"I'm sure there is not only a perceived risk, but there are probably threatening or harassing e-mails and blog entries all over the place. They're right to cover themselves," he said.

[Irons]

I'd turn a blind eye.

[Mr.K]

Needs a

I bailed out
http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:aaauJGuhdhHbMM:http://bizeasy.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/aig-logo.gif
But all i got is this lousy t-shirt

[Hot Lips]

Needs a

I bailed out
http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:aaauJGuhdhHbMM:http://bizeasy.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/aig-logo.gif
But all i got is this lousy t-shirt


They got millions
All.
I..
Got
was this lousey t-shirt

[Laconian]

I'd turn a blind eye.

You mean you'd turn a blind eye to innocent people getting assaulted or possibly murdered because they received money from a legal and binding contract? This going after the AIG employees is a crock of shyte. We (collectively on this site) remind folks that just because a soldier/cop/insert high-profile occupation here does something dishonorable, not all soldiers/cops/insert high-profile occupation here are not guilty of the others crimes. But here, it's okay to after folks that had a contract, that everybody agreed too (before the bailout) and got what their contract called for. If we're going to go after anybody, let's go after (and I mean hold up to scrutiny, not assault) a Congress that has repeatedly given themselves raises despite their piss-poor performance and reckless disregard for fiscal responsibility in any regard.

[Hot Lips]

I do question any contract, and the people who drafted/accepted them, that would not stipulate that no bonus would be paid unless growth is achieved.

I certainly don't condone threats and physical assaults against them, but I do think they have much to make up for.

If those threats are coming from their workers it should tell him something.

I'm miffed that I didn't get a bonus this year, but none of the leaders in our company took bonuses either because of it. That's what leaders do - or should.

[Irons]

I'd turn a blind eye to some of those bonus recipients receiving a fat lip! Hell yeah I would. Murdered, seriously hurt? No. Frustrations gotta go somewhere. Then again, I don't know any of them, so I'm just blowing off steam. Or couldn't you glean that?

[Laconian]

I do question any contract, and the people who drafted/accepted them, that would not stipulate that no bonus would be paid unless growth is achieved.

HL, I hear ya. But if I work for X company and my performance is such that I did outstanding work at my job that I earned a bonus and I have a contractual agreement to the bonus aren't I still entitled to that if another guy's department failed to earn the company money?
That is the way I look at it.

[Mr.K]

I do question any contract, and the people who drafted/accepted them, that would not stipulate that no bonus would be paid unless growth is achieved.

I certainly don't condone threats and physical assaults against them. I do think they have much to make up for.

Certainly their average personnel had nothing to do with any of it.

If those threats are coming from their workers it should tell him something.

I'm miffed that I didn't get a bonus this year, but none of the leaders in our company took bonuses either because of it. That's what leaders do.

Exactly i doubt highly paid execs wear AIG branded clothing.

[Laconian]

I'd turn a blind eye to some of those bonus recipients receiving a fat lip! Hell yeah I would. Murdered, seriously hurt? No. Frustrations gotta go somewhere. Then again, I don't know any of them, so I'm just blowing off steam. Or couldn't you glean that?

There are a bunch of people on this site that spout off with stupid crap, along the lines of "kill 'em all let God sort it out," and quite frankly, I get tired of it. I just don't think a guy or gal deserves to get punched around because they received a bonus they were contractually entitled to, especially because before the money was given, the money-givers were told of these financial obligations and gave the money anyway.

[Mr.K]

There are a bunch of people on this site that spout off with stupid crap, along the lines of "kill 'em all let God sort it out," and quite frankly, I get tired of it. I just don't think a guy or gal deserves to get punched around because they received a bonus they were contractually entitled to, especially because before the money was given, the money-givers were told of these financial obligations and gave the money anyway.

How can you be entitled to a bonus when your should't exist if not for the taxpayer.
This whole "living in fear" BS is orchestrated by AIG's lawyers, in order to scare AIG employees just like a a mob boss is scaring a gang member thinking of leaving the gang, and seek "pity" from the public.
Just like Madoff's lawyer BSing about Madoff. " He shouldn't go to jail he will get stabbed there"

[Irons]

The contracts those people were operating under were scandalous. They were part of the original problem. I've got no problem with a man or woman who reaps a whirle-wind because of their talent, or because they started a valued company, that provided an honest product. But most of these people have high-average IQ's, sold under a lucky star for schooling, and planted their asses in cooshe positions, and stayed there. There is no way you're going to convince me that they are capable of EARNING those type of salaries. It's bunk. Since it's my tax dollars bailing their spoiled asses out, then you'll excuse me if I'm a little miffed. No, I don't really want those people lynched, but I'd soak up the opportunity to see them taken down a peg. A good knuckle sandwich never hurt anything but someones pride, and they've been living under false pretenses for years. They are no smarter, talented, or honorable than I, and I'm not whining about how I can't live on less than half a million dollars a year. F-em, they're reaping what they've sown. I hope they wise up, but if they are a little scared for a few months, then so be it. They dug their own ditch.

[Hot Lips]

HL, I hear ya. But if I work for X company and my performance is such that I did outstanding work at my job that I earned a bonus and I have a contractual agreement to the bonus aren't I still entitled to that if another guy's department failed to earn the company money?

That is the way I look at it.

I know what you are saying, Lac. I earned my bonus and I wanted it..... I actually needed it because downgrading my spending and lifestyle isn't really an option the way it is for an executive. But if you told me I had to choose between my bonus or having xxx employees below me losing their jobs, having benefits slashed, etc. I'd forego the bonus. That's what our leaders did.

These men and women are executives at the top - they are collectively responsible for the welfare of the company and should be working together at that level.

I don't have much sympathy for people in huge houses with private golf courses, etc that cut income, benefits, and jobs from those below them so that they don't have to cancel a cruise, trip to Europe, etc.

It's funny how most companies don't guarentee bonuses to the front line workers that work hard to keep the company afloat even when they can see bad decisions are being made, but have no clout to change them, yet executives get guarentees even when it's their decisions run a company into the ground.

I don't condone anyone harming them and are 100% with you that, but maybe being nervous for a while will make them think a little harder about the deicisons they make. Did they care this much when they signing away other peoples jobs? slashing wages? cutting back benefits?

[Mr.K]

These guys are in troublep-)

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07/07/0726_globalbrands/image/aig.jpg

[sciwizam]

For more clarity on who's receiving the bonuses and if they are responsible for the mess and how are they receiving a retaining bonus if they have left the company, here is a clip from the AIG hearing day before yesterday.

Link (http://financialserv.edgeboss.net/wmedia/financialserv/hearing031809.wvx)

Drag the slider to around 4hrs 22mins and wait till the questions were answered which ends around 4hrs 29min.

For a summary, as explained by a poster in an other forum,

"Liddy describes AIGFP (AIG Financial Products) as being divied into 3 groups ("boxes"), one handled the (toxic) derivities, another credit swaps and the 3rd was hedging etc.

2 of these caused the huge losses, not the 3rd.

None of the people now getting bonuses were involved in the problem areas, in fact they are all long gone.

The people who are getting big bonuses (from what I can tell) were in the third, non-problem causing division of AIGFP. They are people not responsible for the big problems, rather they were brought to liquidate ("close the books" is the phrase he used) aspects of that division($1.6 Trillion) and when that was completed they were scheduled to leave.

So, while many seem shocked that 'retention bonuses' were paid to people who have already left - it is perfectly understandable and appropriate IMO. The retention bonuses were intended to pursuade them to remain until they were finished, which they did, and then paid to them after the job was completed, which they were."

[Kilgor]

Don't hate the player, hate the game

[Mr.K]

For more clarity on who's receiving the bonuses and if they are responsible for the mess and how are they receiving a retaining bonus if they have left the company, here is a clip from the AIG hearing day before yesterday.

Link (http://financialserv.edgeboss.net/wmedia/financialserv/hearing031809.wvx)

Drag the slider to around 4hrs 22mins and wait till the questions were answered which ends around 4hrs 29min.

For a summary, as explained by a poster in an other forum,

"Liddy describes AIGFP (AIG Financial Products) as being divied into 3 groups ("boxes"), one handled the (toxic) derivities, another credit swaps and the 3rd was hedging etc.

2 of these caused the huge losses, not the 3rd.

None of the people now getting bonuses were involved in the problem areas, in fact they are all long gone.

The people who are getting big bonuses (from what I can tell) were in the third, non-problem causing division of AIGFP. They are people not responsible for the big problems, rather they were brought to liquidate ("close the books" is the phrase he used) aspects of that division($1.6 Trillion) and when that was completed they were scheduled to leave.

So, while many seem shocked that 'retention bonuses' were paid to people who have already left - it is perfectly understandable and appropriate IMO. The retention bonuses were intended to pursuade them to remain until they were finished, which they did, and then paid to them after the job was completed, which they were."

Great, public money was spend on laying off people, while those people produced no value for the company.
Just because it's legal it doesn't mean that its is good or moral.

It may sound very simplistic, but that's how I see it:
"Oh so you want us to close? Well, pay us a extra so we can close shop"


And if I didn't understand something you can explain it to me. No sarcasm.



Don't hate the player, hate the game

Cuz it's hard out here for a pimp...

[sinophile]

There are a bunch of people on this site that spout off with stupid crap, along the lines of "kill 'em all let God sort it out," and quite frankly, I get tired of it. I just don't think a guy or gal deserves to get punched around because they received a bonus they were contractually entitled to, especially because before the money was given, the money-givers were told of these financial obligations and gave the money anyway.

You're wasting your time. Tolstoy explained the outrage over AIG the best:


The human mind cannot grasp the causes of phenomena in the aggregate. But the need to find these causes is inherent in man’s soul. And the human intellect, without investigating the multiplicity and complexity of the conditions of phenomena, any one of which taken separately may seem to be the cause, snatches at the first, the most intelligible approximation to a cause, and says: “This is the cause!”

-Leo Tolstoy
War and Peace


Today its called cognitive bias, and many in Congress are counting on it, so they can avoid their own personal responsibility for the larger mess.

[sinophile]

Great, public money was spend on laying off people, while those people produced no value for the company.
Just because it's legal it doesn't mean that its is good or moral.

It may sound very simplistic, but that's how I see it:
"Oh so you want us to close? Well, pay us a extra so we can close shop"


http://www.iiderivatives.com/images/538/lc_formula.gif

Tell ya what bud, here's your pricing model. Go price and unwind 500 billion worth of CDS. We're going to pay you $75,000 since you think a household (Combined income) greater than $250k is too much. Oh, and if you get it wrong we're going to confiscate the $75,000, vilify you publicly and make you the poster child for global fiscal irresponsibility you had no meaningful role in.

Ready, set, go....

[mr. kurien]

don't worry Manchester United new sponsor next season will be the Saudi Telecom... no more AIG

[Irons]

This has all been brewin' for decades. It's chips fall where they may time. Nothings going to change that. Some good. Some bad. It's what happens when those in charge take their eye off the ball, and forget they work for something higher than their bonus'.

[Mr.K]

http://www.iiderivatives.com/images/538/lc_formula.gif

Tell ya what bud, here's your pricing model. Go price and unwind 500 billion worth of CDS. We're going to pay you $75,000 since you think a household (Combined income) greater than $250k is too much. Oh, and if you get it wrong we're going to confiscate the $75,000, vilify you publicly and make you the poster child for global fiscal irresponsibility you had no meaningful role in.

Ready, set, go....

Tell you what Mr. Sense of humor, I would not accept a job involving high risk that I'm not qualified for. And no one forced these people to work in the industry, these aren't soviet conscripts defending Stalingrad.
Where does it say that the base pay is being confiscated by the way? Moreover, I would not expect or ask for any kind of BONUS if the company I work for is bleeding red and people in the industry are "thanked" by thousands.
Who is "we" by the way? The employer? The government?
By the way if the conditions of employment were the ones you stated " get it right or get your compensation confiscated and publicly shamed" I would bet my last dollar that the big banks and fund managers would have adopted a much more cautious and prudent approach to investing and managing.

No one is ranting against the guy in the cubicle pricing CDS for 75K a year, but the grudge is against the company's attitude and its current policies.

"
You don't like having people working for $250,000 a year in total compensation or less? Fine - give back the damn money and run the firm any way you like."


Taken from here

http://market-ticker.org/

[ronnieraygun]

I guess if I'm understanding this it was nothing but a CYA memo to employees reminding them if they're festooned in AIG garb they're likely to get a talking to (this is always done for liability purposes and I wish Hank (RIP) was still around)

I'll tell you what, I got laid off from an infamous telecom and the VP who shook my hand a few months earlier (Oh, so you're Aaron!) ended up doing a bit. No ****. They were that bad. All those dark fiber swaps (think Worldcom, Enron) I rented a car, drove right to their corporate HQ about 18 hours straight drive and took a piss right on the pillars in the middle of the main entrance of HQ. (it's a town that pretends to be in the mountains but they're about an hour from the real mountains, sorta mile high) Not one security guard came out and asked why my fat ass was pissing on their building. If I've ****ed up everything else, at least I did one thing according to my own convictions. My point is that no one cares in the end and I really doubt some grunt in AIG is actually going to get a beat down. The smart money is on employees donating their schwag to a thrift store and some indigent person will be walking down the street with an AIG bag and get beaten up.

[Mr.K]

No one will get beaten up, if it goes to a thrift store you'll have countless amounts of hipsters wearing AIG gear because it's "so ironic".

[khaz]

They should send the pitchfork brigade after barney Frank, Chris Dodd, and Andrew Cuomo (he raised the mandatory subprime lending quota to 56 % while with the clinton admin) who is now covering his ass with fake outrage.

[Mr.K]

Pitchforking and putting people in the brazen bull won't bring the money back. :(

[sinophile]

Tell you what Mr. Sense of humor, I would not accept a job involving high risk that I'm not qualified for.

Right, you're not qualified to do the job, but you're just the man we need to judge innocence, guilt and punishment. If you knew what you were talking about you save your venom for the rating agencies, whose inaccurate underlying data were key inputs for calculating credit risk.

AIG bonuses have no meaning in the face of the larger problem and the issue is a catastrophic waste of public and political attention that should be going toward problem solving. Its a masturbatory show trial.

You can moan about AIG for hours while you wait in line for gasoline and bread.

[Kilgor]

don't worry Manchester United new sponsor next season will be the Saudi Telecom... no more AIG

Your kidding right ?

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

You mean you'd turn a blind eye to innocent people getting assaulted or possibly murdered because they received money from a legal and binding contract? This going after the AIG employees is a crock of shyte. We (collectively on this site) remind folks that just because a soldier/cop/insert high-profile occupation here does something dishonorable, not all soldiers/cops/insert high-profile occupation here are not guilty of the others crimes. But here, it's okay to after folks that had a contract, that everybody agreed too (before the bailout) and got what their contract called for. If we're going to go after anybody, let's go after (and I mean hold up to scrutiny, not assault) a Congress that has repeatedly given themselves raises despite their piss-poor performance and reckless disregard for fiscal responsibility in any regard.

Exactly the right language, sir. AIG did nothing illegal. Granted, I do think the leaders of AIG should have shown more "situational awareness" but Congress and the President were in a great rush to pass that horrible bill, without having scrutinized it thoroughly, without having debated it sufficiently, without stipulating in it how the money could be distributed.

Now they take an indignant tone with AIG executives. Congress should be afraid.

[Irons]

hehehe. Passion and Warfare, signifying nothing. It is what it is, Gents. Ride on!

[Mr.K]

Right, you're not qualified to do the job, but you're just the man we need to judge innocence, guilt and punishment. If you knew what you were talking about you save your venom for the rating agencies, whose inaccurate underlying data were key inputs for calculating credit risk.

AIG bonuses have no meaning in the face of the larger problem and the issue is a catastrophic waste of public and political attention that should be going toward problem solving. Its a masturbatory show trial.

You can moan about AIG for hours while you wait in line for gasoline and bread.

Bawww, I guess what I said really hurt, since you took it so personal.
Here read this :http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/26793903/the_big_takeover

Do you know what taxpayers hate more than paying taxes? Seeing those taxes wasted on overpaid losers, who lost and keep losing money. Oh and live in Canada where regulation exists for better or worse. AIG is not a direct concern, but our economy is dependent on yours.

Speaking of risk who is more fairly compensated, the guy in in his cubicle calculating risk or the guy who's patroling Iraq?

Again who is "we"?


Exactly the right language, sir. AIG did nothing illegal. Granted, I do think the leaders of AIG should have shown more "situational awareness" but Congress and the President were in a great rush to pass that horrible bill, without having scrutinized it thoroughly, without having debated it sufficiently, without stipulating in it how the money could be distributed.

Now they take an indignant tone with AIG executives. Congress should be afraid.

Why yes sir, time was running out and they need to bail out their buddies. True camaraderie.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Why yes sir, time was running out and they need to bail out their buddies. True camaraderie.
They were derelict in their responsibilities, passed a bill with inadequate safeguards on how the money was to be spent, AIG did what it did, and now they look like dopes.

After all, it was urgent and they had no time to actually read the whole bill :roll:

I bet they are hoping that their outrage is convincing enough to get them reelected.

[deagle]

those scumbags should decline their bonuses and can show their faces.

00oo0o0o they live in fear in which ever mansion they chooose, while others live in poverty.

funny how those CEO's took bonuses while laying off workers to fend for themselves.

why don't they use their bonuses to re-hire workers and stimulate the economy ??

[SoSo]

I guess if I'm understanding this it was nothing but a CYA memo to employees reminding them if they're festooned in AIG garb they're likely to get a talking to (this is always done for liability purposes and I wish Hank (RIP) was still around)

I'll tell you what, I got laid off from an infamous telecom and the VP who shook my hand a few months earlier (Oh, so you're Aaron!) ended up doing a bit. No ****. They were that bad. All those dark fiber swaps (think Worldcom, Enron) I rented a car, drove right to their corporate HQ about 18 hours straight drive and took a piss right on the pillars in the middle of the main entrance of HQ. (it's a town that pretends to be in the mountains but they're about an hour from the real mountains, sorta mile high) Not one security guard came out and asked why my fat ass was pissing on their building. If I've ****ed up everything else, at least I did one thing according to my own convictions. My point is that no one cares in the end and I really doubt some grunt in AIG is actually going to get a beat down. The smart money is on employees donating their schwag to a thrift store and some indigent person will be walking down the street with an AIG bag and get beaten up.

Ronnieraygun, you said it all. Your post really made my day.

[Irons]

This is what happens when p*ssy's lead from the rear. Simple as that. I hope they choke on it! Who knows, some leaders with cahones instead of "buzz words" in their cache might come of all of this. Good on ya' Raygun; piss on 'em; piss on 'em all!

[Mr.K]

those scumbags should decline their bonuses and can show their faces.

00oo0o0o they live in fear in which ever mansion they chooose, while others live in poverty.

funny how those CEO's took bonuses while laying off workers to fend for themselves.

why don't they use their bonuses to re-hire workers and stimulate the economy ??

because collectivism bad, and individualism good.

Ok enough gloating. I think it's because they didn't build the firms they were managing, if the top execs were partners and had their wealth invested directly in their firms, they would actually care more about the results. Insetead we got a buch of guys who rose to power, abused of the position and ran off. From their point of view they did everything right.

[Laconian]

I find the fact that the government (Congress) is advocating going after (seizing) folks' individual assets (property) that was attained in a legal manner (contract) ex post facto without a warrant issued by a disinterested magistrate and based upon probable cause just a little scary. That people are agreeing to it, is absurd

I find the government's campaign of vilifying a select group of private citizens who have not been indicted, let alone convicted, of any crime, while turning a blind eye to their own responsibility for the current state of affairs caused by their very own policies scary as well.

Scariest of all is the animosity (manifesting itself to condone criminal behavior) against people who maybe did not conduct good business practices or even good leadership practices but never did anything illegal.

[Zoomie]

those scumbags should decline their bonuses and can show their faces.

00oo0o0o they live in fear in which ever mansion they chooose, while others live in poverty.
:bash: Yeah, because ALL executives, or anyone else who got a bonus, is filthy rich.


funny how those CEO's took bonuses while laying off workers to fend for themselves.

Talk to congress and Obama, they made sure they got the contractually ensured bonuses.

why don't they use their bonuses to re-hire workers and stimulate the economy ??
How exactly will they be able to do that when there's a witch hunt going on?

[Netzach]

You mean you'd turn a blind eye to innocent people getting assaulted or possibly murdered because they received money from a legal and binding contract? This going after the AIG employees is a crock of shyte. We (collectively on this site) remind folks that just because a soldier/cop/insert high-profile occupation here does something dishonorable, not all soldiers/cops/insert high-profile occupation here are not guilty of the others crimes. But here, it's okay to after folks that had a contract, that everybody agreed too (before the bailout) and got what their contract called for. If we're going to go after anybody, let's go after (and I mean hold up to scrutiny, not assault) a Congress that has repeatedly given themselves raises despite their piss-poor performance and reckless disregard for fiscal responsibility in any regard.

Fair enough. Honour their legal and binding contract, and give them their protected bonuses in order to avoid further expense to the taxpayer
of fighting a legal challenge. Right now that's what they are waiting for, and the insurance companies are already being used as leverage to
intimidate the government. There's more than one way to skin a crocodile. Pass a bill that will enable as near to the full amount as possible of
these bonus payments to be recovered as a form of 'windfall tax.'

[sinophile]

Bawww, I guess what I said really hurt, since you took it so personal.
Here read this :http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/26793903/the_big_takeover

Do you know what taxpayers hate more than paying taxes? Seeing those taxes wasted on overpaid losers, who lost and keep losing money. Oh and live in Canada where regulation exists for better or worse. AIG is not a direct concern, but our economy is dependent on yours.

Speaking of risk who is more fairly compensated, the guy in in his cubicle calculating risk or the guy who's patroling Iraq?

Again who is "we"?



Why yes sir, time was running out and they need to bail out their buddies. True camaraderie.

I don't know who today's Goebbels or Marx will be, the guy who brings together all the righteously indignant simple minded people.... but I do know you'll be in the crowd, one of the sheep following some angry egomaniacal wolf looking for human sacrifices.

[sinophile]

There's more than one way to skin a crocodile. Pass a bill that will enable as near to the full amount as possible of
these bonus payments to be recovered as a form of 'windfall tax.'

I'll let a poster from another board I follow respond to you better than I can...


You, my friend, are our winner for "Idiot of the Night." Nobody really gives a **** if the AIG execs have to return a portion or all of what they received. The point here is that this is being used as a vehicle to limit compensation of ALL employees of recipients of TARP funds.

And in case you still don't get it, let's illustrate: You (hypothetically) are a successful employee of company X, a tarp fund recipient. You work hard, diligently, and are successful and generate $2 million in revenue for your company. You have nothing to do with the current market crisis. In fact, you don't even know what a CDO is. You, by congressional mandate, cannot make more than 250k.

Now, let's assume another hypothetical. Tomorrow, you get a call from a headhunter whose been calling from time to time with opportunities. He says UBS is willing to pay you 750k guaranteed (in a contract). They would net $1.25 million. You have know idea when, if at all, your company will pay back the TARP money.

What are you going to do? This, I think, even you can figure out.

[Bia]

You can moan about AIG for hours while you wait in line for gasoline and bread.
How long before we see these lines... I was at the grocery last night.... there was more bread than when Jesus pulled a magic trick with the fishes and loaves feeding scores and scores of people.

Less than 1 year?

[Laconian]

Pass a bill that will enable as near to the full amount as possible of these bonus payments to be recovered as a form of 'windfall tax.'

Using the government to target a specific group of private individuals' legally gained assets is illegal in this country because it is unconstitutional. It is akin to closing the barn door after the horses are out, ex post facto after the fact.

Let me propose this: The government decides that whoever bought ammo or firearms after Pres. Obama got elected (hoarding ammo and guns because of the feared impending assault on the 2nd Amendment) and that Congress was going to seize by subpoena and publish the names of all who bought TOO much ammo and/or firearms and seize these legally-bought assets even though no crime had been committed, alleged or charged, and that the Government was sending its folks to do it, what would your reaction be?

[Netzach]

I'll let a poster from another board I follow respond to you better than I can...

You're swinging after the bell if you must plagiarise other peoples work from another forum.
Try to be more original next time - and have the integrity to post your own point of view.


Using the government to target a specific group of private individuals' legally gained assets is illegal in this country because it is unconstitutional. It is akin to closing the barn door after the horses are out, ex post facto after the fact.

Let me propose this: The government decides that whoever bought ammo or firearms after Pres. Obama got elected (hoarding ammo and guns because of the feared impending assault on the 2nd Amendment) and that Congress was going to seize by subpoena and publish the names of all who bought TOO much ammo and/or firearms and seize these legally-bought assets even though no crime had been committed, alleged or charged, and that the Government was sending its folks to do it, what would your reaction be?

You're not going to get me on that one, not on this thread, but I will answer your question
on the dedicated firearms discussion. Perhaps you could provide the appropriate link please.

[sinophile]

You're swinging after the bell if you must plagiarise other peoples work from another forum.
Try to be more original next time - and have the integrity to post your own point of view.

Try to stick to words whose meaning you understand. To plagiarize means to use someone's work, claiming it as your own. I want you to practice for a few weeks with vocabulary flash cards and then I'll start replying to your posts again. Oh, and btw - you never responded to the actual point because there is no response that can extricate you from how wrong you are.

[Netzach]

Try to stick to words whose meaning you understand. To plagiarize means to use someone's work, claiming it as your own. I want you to practice for a few weeks with vocabulary flash cards and then I'll start replying to your posts again. Oh, and btw - you never responded to the actual point because there is no response that can extricate you from how wrong you are.

Correction.

You did not plagiarize that persons material. It was a straight forward copy and paste,
because you were unable to express your own point of view. It is totally unacceptable
that we have a situation where a section of people claim a legal right to receive their
bonus payments. That's the reality. My take? Make them fight for it through the courts.

[California Joe]

Correction.

You did not plagiarize that persons material. It was a straight forward copy and paste,
because you were unable to express your own point of view. It is totally unacceptable
that we have a situation where a section of people claim a legal right to receive their
bonus payments. That's the reality. My take? Make them fight for it through the courts.

You're overmatched. Quit while you're ahead.

Sinophile and Laconian are both looking at the larger picture here. And the precedents being set in this case are truly scary for a free society such as ours.

Personally, I have a certain level of animosity towards the upper levels of incompetent management like everyone else, but it's beginning to look like the "bonuses" are one of the most brilliant distraction issues ever created. The masses will continue to rail against this, egged on by disingenuous congressmen, who revel in black and white simplicity, until they get some small level of satisfaction and pat themselves on the back for "sticking it to the fat cats".

All the while, billions upon billions of untraceable dollars will be dissapearing into a stimulus void that most people cannot understand the nature of, or why it's even necessary.

[Zoomie]

Correction.

You did not plagiarize that persons material. It was a straight forward copy and paste,
because you were unable to express your own point of view. It is totally unacceptable
that we have a situation where a section of people claim a legal right to receive their
bonus payments. That's the reality. My take? Make them fight for it through the courts.
So, you mean to tell me, that because of what's going on, you think quotes shouldn't be allowed? rofl
Allow me to quote the ever so wise, California Joe:

You're overmatched. Quit while you're ahead.

[Hot Lips]

I think both deserve focus. Where is all the rest of the money going AND this issue.

They'll get their bonuses, but I feel little sympathy for the anxiety now attached to cashing in on it. They deserve to feel ashamed and seriously need to reflect on why so many citizens are angry with them. So do all the other executives in our nation that play with words in contracts and scratch each others backs to implement guarantees even in the face of their own colossal failures, when they won't bat an eye at cutting hard working, good U.S. employees wages, benefits to line their own pockets. Any reference to AIG should be a blight on their resume for the remainder of their careers.

At least some of these executives have willingly declined their bonuses - I give them credit for their actions.

AIG may have to pay the "retention" bonuses because of the way they were written. But I think examining the contacts, questioning why they were written the way they were, and shining a light on their actions is a good thing. I hope it makes other corporate executives rethink the contracts they draft for their executives going forward.

No contact should include a stipulations that bonuses will not be paid due to an employees failure to meet performance standards (as these contacts did) and then not define those performance standards as a loop hole to provide guarentees.

I think a little public humiliation is exactly what the greedy people - that undermine our domestic workforce and citizens - at the very least deserve. They've gone unchecked and unquestioned for too long.



And we still need to keep tabs on all the rest of the money.

[Irons]

There are some very good points being brought up here. I commend those that have brought them to the table. Unfortunately, the US Government has been operating either outside of the law, or at least in a fashion that stretches the law in such a way that it is in fact damaging to the laws original intent, for a very long time. And when I say a very long time, I mean in some instances, before any of you, or even your Grandparents were born. A lot of it is more recent however.

No, I'm not worried about some ex-post-facto precedent being set. There is plenty of that out there already. It's just that the majority of it is leveled at the "little men" in our society. So now some fat-cats catch one in the ass, and I'm supposed to be all "concerned over dangerous precedent" all the sudden? Sorry, no sale. I've been living with that as a reality my whole life. I'm used to the fear.

So far as this whole thing being a shell game, or smoke screen. I agree. I also know that it's nothing new, and there is nothing is going to get done to change that. Hey, if the little man can get a piece, a little satisfaction for a change, and nobody gets seriously hurt in the process, then I've got no problem with it. It's funny how people get all worried about due process, and standards of practice when it's a rich man who's butt is on the line, but have no problem forgetting those same things when it's a poor, or even middle class person being put through the system.

None of this is right. From the top to the bottom. From the middle to the end. It's all one big slice of "wrong." So what. Nothing is going to save us now; may as well party-hardy!


AIG collapsed. There is no AIG. There is only the US Government now. We own AIG, right or wrong, defacto or dejure, take your pick.


There is no AIG. There is only Zule (http://www.livevideo.com/video/0E00627D2A4243E4BA41816891748F92/bulletboys-thc-groove.aspx). :) Zule's gonna bring the thunder. You can't stop it now. If you wanted to, then you shouldn't have called down the thunder in the first place.

[WarDancer]

Real nice for congress to make AIG executives the boogie man in all of this. Bottom line, the bonuses are a legally binding contract that was in the spendulus bill. The dems were caught trying to give their reward AIG and now the dems are acting all uppity and outraged.

The dems are whipping up mass hysteria to hide the fact they were the ones who approved the bonuses via a last minute amendment in the spendulus bill. The fact that a bus load of demonstrators are going to the homes of those receiving bonuses ,and the dems havent asked them to refrain from such activity, make the dems complicit if there is any property damage or physical harm to those executives.

If these people want to demonstate against anything how about starting with capital hill with those idiots who didnt read the spendulus bill and APPROVED the bonuses in the first place!

[Irons]

Congress, and Senate will get theirs at the next available vote. Don't worry, there is plenty to go around.

[Ominae]

There was some protest to AIG officials, but at least no one was hurt.

Protesters visit AIG officials' lavish Conn. homes

By JOHN CHRISTOFFERSEN, Associated Press Writer John Christoffersen, Associated Press Writer – 20 mins ago



FAIRFIELD, Conn. – A busload of activists representing working- and middle-class families paid visits Saturday to the lavish homes of American International Group executives to protest the tens of millions of dollars in bonuses awarded by the struggling insurance company after it received a massive federal bailout.

About 40 protesters — outnumbered by reporters and photographers from as far away as Germany — sought to urge AIG executives who received a portion of the $165 million in bonuses to do more to help families.

"We think $165 million could be used in a more appropriate way to keep people in their homes, create more jobs and health care," said Emeline Bravo-Blackport, a gardener.

She marveled at AIG executive James Haas' colonial house, which has stunning views of a golf course and the Long Island Sound. The Fairfield house is "another part of the world" from her life in nearby Bridgeport, which flirted with bankruptcy in the 1990s and still struggles with foreclosures and unemployment."

"Lord, I wonder what it's like to live in a house that size," she said.

Another protester, Claire Jeffery, of Bloomfield, said she's on the verge of foreclosure. She works as a housekeeper; her husband, a truck driver, can't find work.

"I love my home," she said. "I really want people to help us."

News of the bonuses last week ignited a firestorm of controversy and even death threats against AIG employees. The company, which is based in New York, has received $182.5 billion in federal aid and now is about 80 percent government-owned, while the national housing and job markets have collapsed as the country spirals into a crippling recession.

American International Group Inc. has said it was contractually obligated to give the retention bonuses, payments designed to keep valued employees from quitting, to people in its financial products unit, based in Wilton, Conn. Congress began action on a bill that would tax 90 percent of the bonuses, and the company's chief executive urged anyone who received more than $100,000 to return at least half.

AIG has argued that retention bonuses are crucial to pulling the company out of its crisis. Without the bonuses, the company says, top employees who best understand AIG's business would leave.

Besides Haas' home, protesters on Saturday also visited the Fairfield home of AIG executive Douglas Poling. They were met both times by security guards. They left letters that acknowledged some executives, including Haas and Poling, are giving up the money but that asked them to support higher taxes on families earning more than $500,000 a year.

"You have a wonderful opportunity to help your neighbors in Connecticut," the letters said. "We ask you to consider the experiences of families struggling in this economy."

Afterward, the group protested at the office of AIG's financial products division in Wilton, where they waved signs and chanted, "Money for the needy, not for the greedy!"

There were no arrests.

Mary Huguley, of Hartford, said AIG executives should share their wealth with people like her sister, who is facing foreclosure.

"You ought to share it, and God will bless you for doing it," she said.

The protests came amid new questions about the retention bonuses. State Attorney General Richard Blumenthal said Saturday that documents turned over to his office by AIG appear to show that the company paid $53 million more in bonuses to its financial products division than previously reported.

Bonuses were "showered like confetti" on AIG employees, Blumenthal said.

An AIG spokesman declined to comment.

AIG had previously disclosed that the company was contractually obligated to pay a total of about $165 million of previously awarded retention pay to employees in the financial products unit by March 15. It said another $55 million in retention pay already had been distributed to about 400 AIG Financial Products employees. That total of $220 million is about $2 million more than the figure disclosed Friday to Blumenthal's office, and Blumenthal said he's seeking clarification from the company on whether the new papers differ from what was previously reported.

"Unless the number can be explained," he said, "it will undercut any lingering rationale the company may have for these unjustified payments."

(This version CORRECTS spelling of AIG executive's name to Haas sted Hass; ADDS Haas, Poling have agreed to give up bonuses)

[LineDoggie]

I'd turn a blind eye.

WRONG ANSWER dude....


The fact that these persons are getting a Bonus is distasteful to say the least. But The Administration KNEW they would be allowed to get these bonuses. Because they ALLOWED it in the wording of thier Bailouts.

To After the fact scream rape is total bull**** from the Administration. Barney Frank demanding Names? Prosecute his ass if those names get leeked and someone gets killed. That fat prick did more to keep this crap from coming into sane regulation than anyone else in D.C. All so His Boyfriend the Fannie May exec would get bigger bonuses so as to give Barney the bigger bone.

To threaten these people with Death, their Children, their Wives is the height of Cowardly behaviour one would expect from a Hooded Sheet wearer with a Burning Cross.

That might work in Zimbabwe or some other third world ****hole not here.

[Irons]

Then again, and as I stated earlier, I'm just blowing off steam. I don't know any of those people, and never will. None of us are changing the world for the better by talking on this website. Nothing we do here really matters. It's just passing the time, and gabbin' awhile. This whole thread is more like screaming at at Television Set. It's fun, but it's stupid, and most of us are well aware of that, but do it anyway. Here the TV screams back, but it's the same thing. It's a whole bunch of nothing.

Ever wanted to punch your boss right in the gut, over implementing some stupid sh*t that everybody but him knew wasn't going to work, and it was going to come down on your shoulders regardless? Same thing is resident here. You're not going to do it. You would lose your job, and then some, but you'll talk about it all night over beers with your buddies. It's ok, literally EVERYBODY does it. Hell, that was the whole plot of "9 to 5!" It's a discussion as old as time.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

WRONG ANSWER dude.... Quite right.


The fact that these persons are getting a Bonus is distasteful to say the least. But The Administration KNEW they would be allowed to get these bonuses. Because they ALLOWED it in the wording of thier Bailouts.

The administration and Congress may have been aware of the AIG's contractual obligations to its employees, but I rather doubt. I wouldn't give either branch of government that much credit. I don't think that are that far-sighted.

My personal opinion is that it was an oversight and they weren't smart enough to put in any stipulations on how the money is spent.

So they are either devious or incompetent, take your pick, whichever is more comforting.

And, as CJ said:
"All the while, billions upon billions of untraceable dollars will be dissapearing into a stimulus void that most people cannot understand the nature of, or why it's even necessary."

[Irons]

I'm just curious; what makes you guys think this is some dubious flirtation with mis-directed public outrage? I mean, we're just getting into this. There is more than likely to be much more, and much bigger, and defiantly more serious outbursts of public anger ala mob-mentality in our near future. There is plenty of "Get a Rope" style shenanigans to come for many other organizations, individuals, and yes...Government Officials.

AIG is just the flavor of the month. Don't worry, the little smoke screen you guys are worried about (and rightly so IMO) just doesn't have enough staying power to avert the Public Rage that's on the horizon. This is a big sh*t sandwich Gents, and EVERYBODY is going to take SEVERAL bites, and be forced to ask for seconds.

The massiveness of this scenario makes me think of this old song, with regards to the direction of public sentiment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upWUuByQLxQ

Half Serious, Half Joking, Very Irresponsible, Funny, Sad, and Inevitable all in one fell swoop.

[Nano]

I find the fact that the government (Congress) is advocating going after (seizing) folks' individual assets (property) that was attained in a legal manner (contract) ex post facto without a warrant issued by a disinterested magistrate and based upon probable cause just a little scary. That people are agreeing to it, is absurd

I find the government's campaign of vilifying a select group of private citizens who have not been indicted, let alone convicted, of any crime, while turning a blind eye to their own responsibility for the current state of affairs caused by their very own policies scary as well.

Scariest of all is the animosity (manifesting itself to condone criminal behavior) against people who maybe did not conduct good business practices or even good leadership practices but never did anything illegal.

The scapegoats may not be all that innocent themselves, but yes the whole circus around the "bonuses" is a distraction at who is fundamentally at fault. The government and more precisely people on the muddy hill are in need of some AIG love. There is a fine line between legality and moral right and wrong and what some people did during the past decade is in some cases criminal and not, but it certainly was not morally right.

I however agree on what you pointed out the American people are being duped into their own cages. People need to start thinking and working on getting all stinking turds out of office asap. I however believe that the fundamental problem maybe far deeper and more widespread than we would ever want to admit. The Supreme law of the land has been made into a whore.

Some people may not like or agree on most of what Ron Paul says or advocates, but the man does as he believes and says.
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/ADrOaiq-enY&feature=channel

[Netzach]

The Supreme law of the land has been made into a whore.


It was the Supreme Law of the Land, that placed in the White House the Emperor who fiddled whilst Rome burned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore This is his legacy. Remember his "Congress has to pass this Bill" effort.

[Zoomie]

It was the Supreme Law of the Land, that placed in the White House the Emperor who fiddled whilst Rome burned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore This is his legacy. Remember his "Congress has to pass this Bill" effort.
Wow. . . :roll:

[Nano]

It was the Supreme Law of the Land, that placed in the White House the Emperor who fiddled whilst Rome burned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore This is his legacy. Remember his "Congress has to pass this Bill" effort.

You have misunderstood what I meant by that. In essence the supreme law of the land has been used for the interests and pleasures of those in positions of power. The law of the land was never meant to be a whore just like young girl who is manipulated(interpretation extended) into prostitution by a pimp (politician etc.) to do tricks(special interests wants). Both parties and shades of people have done what I have said and is not limited to republicans the democrats have done more than most.

[Flagg]

How long before we see these lines... I was at the grocery last night.... there was more bread than when Jesus pulled a magic trick with the fishes and loaves feeding scores and scores of people.

Less than 1 year?

While the likelihood of food stores having empty shelves and petrol stations having empty tanks ON AVERAGE across the United States is approaching absolute zero....there are some things to keep in mind:

Wilmington, Ohio is a single canary/coalmine example of a "company town" total failure:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ghost-town-an-american-nightmare-1646434.html

States with Unemployment rates exceeding 10% is now 7:

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2009/03/09/daily63.html

Bank failures are accelerating:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aVLLNdvmmpaQ&refer=home

The ball is only starting to roll now........Newton's First Law basically states that "bodies in motion tend to stay in motion".......this motion is in the wrong direction and will not likely be stopping anytime soon.

--------------------------------------------

In the United States there ARE already some people/towns in VERY deep doo doo....in the near future there will be many more joining them.

Outside of the US, particularly in the 3rd/4th world....this same thing will occur in an echo......but instead of kids going without a Playstation 4 and having to eke another couple of years out of their toys or maybe having to hock them on Ebay, they will starve.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

While the likelihood of food stores having empty shelves and petrol stations having empty tanks ON AVERAGE across the United States is approaching absolute zero....there are some things to keep in mind:

Wilmington, Ohio is a single canary/coalmine example of a "company town" total failure:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ghost-town-an-american-nightmare-1646434.html

States with Unemployment rates exceeding 10% is now 7:

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2009/03/09/daily63.html

Bank failures are accelerating:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aVLLNdvmmpaQ&refer=home

The ball is only starting to roll now........Newton's First Law basically states that "bodies in motion tend to stay in motion".......this motion is in the wrong direction and will not likely be stopping anytime soon.

--------------------------------------------

In the United States there ARE already some people/towns in VERY deep doo doo....in the near future there will be many more joining them.

Outside of the US, particularly in the 3rd/4th world....this same thing will occur in an echo......but instead of kids going without a Playstation 4 and having to eke another couple of years out of their toys or maybe having to hock them on Ebay, they will starve.

Very grim news, sir.

Was the Great Depression similar in any way?

[Flagg]

As far as AIG goes..........it's just so reactionary by the masses and hypocritical and Machiavellian by those in power.

People are under financial stress

People are beginning to demand "action"

What "action" exactly and by whom?

The AIG bonus BS is a frickin' small potatoes diversionary circus.

This is some serious game-changing sh!t.

If you haven't cottoned on to the fact that you are being played like Pavlov's dog, then you should shut the F up and educate yourself to avoid further embarrassment.

If you CAN comprehend the true debth of the cancer and rot of corruption, and you SAY you care about cleaning up democracy...then get off your frickin' ass and DO something about it......the foundation of sand that led to this financial mess can be traced directly back to the corruption on the political process and people not giving a sh!t.

Invoke your right to free speech and protest......find a way to effect change

Or you can just sit on your couch watching American Idol and let someone else figure it out.

[Irons]

I asked a member of my family--who shall remain nameless and is quite old, but still pretty sharp minded--about what he thought about all of this, with an eye to comparing and contrasting it to the 30's, and he believes that it is was eerily similar, but expects it to eventually become much worse than the "Big One." His words to me ultimately were; "I'm glad I'll be gone soon...hopefully." It's frightening indeed no matter how you slice it.

[Nano]

Very grim news, sir.

Was the Great Depression similar in any way?

You think those are grim news wait and see some will look back and wish and pray for the early months of 09'. It is all going through an economic timeline. In other words the truly grim news is yet come to pass.

P.S.To add to Flagg's recommended subjects read up on the Weimar Republic. France in the 1700's is also a good subject for research.

[Flagg]

Very grim news, sir.

Was the Great Depression similar in any way?


I am no expert.....just a keen amateur.

My opinion is that while there are MANY parallels.....some insanely scary parallels with the rise of higher purchase/consumer lending leading to rampant consumerism......ALL these things are different.

The "inputs" are so vast and vastly different between then and now that while some important parallels can be drawn it's important to avoid trying to smash a square peg in a round hole.

I would encourage you to educate yourself on not just the Depression with a capital D, but the many other economic/financial/political problems faced by humanity over the years......the Asian Financial Crisis, the Russian Financial Crisis, Long Term Capital Management, the 70's/80's, Argentina, etc all offer some relevant lessons to learn that could be relevant to us today.

Just my 0.02c

[Irons]

How about England in the 1200's? War Peace & War, and all that jazz.

[Flagg]

I asked a member of my family--who shall remain nameless and is quite old, but still pretty sharp minded--about what he thought about all of this, with an eye to comparing and contrasting it to the 30's, and he believes that it is was eerily similar, but expects it to eventually become much worse than the "Big One." His words to me ultimately were; "I'm glad I'll be gone soon...hopefully." It's frightening indeed no matter how you slice it.

Yeah......all my grandparents have been gone for years.

But I remember my grandmother and grandfather on my Mom's side when I was a kid.

Greatest grandparents ever........and hard as nails as their childhoods and early adult lives were forged by the Depression and WWII.

Cancer got them both, but they went down fighting hard because it wasn't in their nature to quit.

Somewhere, deep down inside all those overweight, overindulged, and overprotected kids today lies the same stern stuff......enough bad news will bring it to the surface.

[Flagg]

How about England in the 1200's? War Peace & War, and all that jazz.

Not really my thing.....I tend to stick mostly with the most recent 100 years or so.

[Irons]

Well, even though I'd love to take credit for sounding "smart." It really does come from the book "War & Peace & War." Check it out sometime. It really sheds light on how living in the past wasn't really as different as today. And even though that thought scares the hell out of us, it's there.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

You think those are grim news wait and see some will look back and wish and pray for the early months of 09'. It is all going through an economic timeline. In other words the truly grim news is yet come to pass.I fear you may be right.


I am no expert.....just a keen amateur.

My opinion is that while there are MANY parallels.....some insanely scary parallels with the rise of higher purchase/consumer lending leading to rampant consumerism......ALL these things are different.

The "inputs" are so vast and vastly different between then and now that while some important parallels can be drawn it's important to avoid trying to smash a square peg in a round hole.

I would encourage you to educate yourself on not just the Depression with a capital D, but the many other economic/financial/political problems faced by humanity over the years......the Asian Financial Crisis, the Russian Financial Crisis, Long Term Capital Management, the 70's/80's, Argentina, etc all offer some relevant lessons to learn that could be relevant to us today.


Just my 0.02cThank you, sir. I am very worried that this AIG nonsense is serving only to distract the populace.

I'm worried that the next moves will be guided by ideology, the Keynesians are ascendant :(

I worry that Congress and the President have no real idea which economics professor is the right one and they'll just pick one they like.

[Irons]

A. Tack, I think what you should focus upon here is that stuff like this is always like a car-crash in slow motion. Once it gets started, it has a varied, but generally predictable outcome (I.e. "Your sh*t gets fu*ked up" to borrow from a phrase from Mr. Zevon). All one can REALLY do, is draw back in whatever is drawable, spend time doing whatever it is that you enjoy--while you can--and keep an ear to the train track. Then you just hope for the best, and roll with the punches.

This is a very, very tremendous thing that has befallen all of us. It's not going to be ok for a long time, and when it finally is again, it will never be exactly the same. You're a victim of your time, as are we all. Keep a stiff upper lip, and a smile on your face, tell a joke or two, and do what you need to do to survive and prosper as much as is possible. It's the only real medicine. Also, be kind, because...why not!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHDdqubE7zQ

[Nano]

Flagg is right our society lacks some basic economic knowledge. If any of you are interested and want to know more about economics aside from the class you took in high school or college the Mises.org is one good source and has links to other resources. It maybe a bit corny for today's society, but the old saying "knowledge is power" holds true today just as when the first humans re-created fire and learned to farm.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

It's not going to be ok for a long time, and when it finally is again, it will never be exactly the same. You're a victim of your time, as are we all. Keep a stiff upper lip, and a smile on your face, tell a joke or two, and do what you need to do to survive and prosper as much as is possible. It's the only real medicine.
Thanks for advice. I do plan on being very cautious. I just hate being helpless, no real power to influence events.

[Irons]

Kinda missing the point in my opinion A. Tack. Now is not the time to be "cautious." It is time to be realistic, but mostly it's time to hold what you got, so that you can redirect it as soon as you see the opportunity, put yourself in the best frame of mind possible, have some fun even, and just do what's necessary, and above all else...REMAIN CALM. Focus upon what you DO have already, be that family, or a hobby, or money, or friends, or just whatever. That may require blowing off steam. The internet is a great tool for that.

[Nano]

Not really my thing.....I tend to stick mostly with the most recent 100 years or so.

Flagg have you read Burton W.Jr. Folsom's book New Deal or Raw Deal?How FDR's Economic Legacy Has Damaged America. I was doing my own personal research (data crunching/trends etc.)when I ran into this book. I have not read it and wonder if you have and what your thoughts on it are.

[cmoor]

I worry that Congress and the President have no real idea which economics professor is the right one and they'll just pick one they like.

I guess no countries leader has any idea how to solve this crisis, but hey all agree on the fact, to not let any (more) big financial institution go bankcrupt, as this would trigger a chain reaction that would put the world financial and economic system to an end we all know it. Northern Rock was just a small example of what will happen when the citizens lose their faith , Iceland is an example on a bigger scale, when trust is gone on a different level.

Imho politicians will continue to hand out debt guarantees and bailout money like there is no tomorrow, because if they don't there will be certainly a different one.

Flagg wrote:

While the likelihood of food stores having empty shelves and petrol stations having empty tanks ON AVERAGE across the United States is approaching absolute zero.mindI have to disagree on that. When the chain reaction begins, i think the chances are not that low, that shelves will be empty, at least on imported goods. Domestic goods may be a different issue, but who wants to produce and sell anythink if you don't/can't get paid.

I remember my grandma, who experienced at least one, if not two "monatary reforms" (still got some emergency money in our house) and begin to understand, why she never trusted a bank and got all their money, not under her bed, but in her appartment:)

[Nano]

I remember my grandma, who experienced at least one, if not two "monatary reforms" (still got some emergency money in our house) and begin to understand, why she never trusted a bank and got all their money, not under her bed, but in her appartment:)

You peeked my interests is your grandma originally from Germany or Argentina?What country were you referring to in the context of you grandmother's experience? Yeah I know asked the same question twice so sue me.

[Irons]

I've got family, land, food, some money, great guns, great friends, a self-actualizing demeanor; I'm a cynic, I've got wonderful books, I've got a truck, history at my disposal, and I live in what I consider to be the most Ruggedly Individualistic country in the world. I have no faith in my political leaders, but I believe in me. I think everything will eventually stabilize and work out, but if it doesn't for some reason, I've got a fighting chance, and that's a lot...to me. I'm not happy right now, but I'm blessed and content, come what may.



Anybody else want to chime in here and put some lipstick on this pig?

[Flagg]

I've got family, land, food, some money, great guns, great friends, a self-actualizing demeanor; I'm a cynic, I've got wonderful books, I've got a truck, history at my disposal, and I live in what I consider to be the most Ruggedly Individualistic country in the world. I have no faith in my political leaders, but I believe in me. I think everything will eventually stabilize and work out, but if it doesn't for some reason, I've got a fighting chance, and that's a lot...to me. I'm not happy right now, but I'm blessed and content, come what may.



Anybody else want to chime in here and put some lipstick on this pig?

Would you be truly willing to exchange it all for a fully functioning democracy that exists for it's citizens rather than string pulling special interests?

I think it's going to require a lot of sacrifice from a lot of good people to even approach that ideal.

[cmoor]

You peeked my interests is your grandma originally from Germany or Argentina?What country were you referring to in the context of you grandmother's experience? Yeah I know asked the same question twice so sue me.

Germany, she was born around 1898~, though i have to say i miss many details and am angry that i didn't talk more about history with her, when i had the chance. Just took a look at the "emergency money", it expired august 21. 1921 so it looks like it's related to the first WW. Interesting to read though, with verses written on it against the danes who fought a small scale war with the germans on the northern tip of germany, but that was around 1850~. Offtopic though.

[Irons]

Would you be truly willing to exchange it all for a fully functioning democracy that exists for it's citizens rather than string pulling special interests?

I think it's going to require a lot of sacrifice from a lot of good people to even approach that ideal.

I think that's what's happening now Flagg. Once you drive a mile down a narrow, one lane road, off course, you have to put it in reverse for the same difference to get back to the point of detour. It's a slow, arduous process, but I have faith in it, ultimately, despite what I pop off over to blow off steam.

Counter point: Would you?

[Nano]

Germany, she was born around 1898~, though i have to say i miss many details and am angry that i didn't talk more about history with her, when i had the chance. Just took a look at the "emergency money", it expired august 21. 1921 so it looks like it's related to the first WW. Interesting to read though, with verses written on it against the danes who fought a small scale war with the germans on the northern tip of germany, but that was around 1850~. Offtopic though.

Thanks for the personal info and the book I will try to look it up. To reciprocate the reply I will share a personal story as told by my former high school economics teacher. He was giving us a lecture on monetary policy(money supply) and how it defers based upon the history of a country.(That was at least what I extrapolated\took from it).

He went on a tangent as he was lecturing and told us a story about a former classmate of his who had shared the infighting between his parents in post WWI Germany. The classmate explained that he remembered his mother would scold his father for having brought the days pay instead of spending it right away on food. He the student understood the why, but then during that days lesson he came to understand it with some clarity as to the situation.The reason and subject of that days class according to my teacher was hyperinflation.

[Flagg]

I think that's what's happening now Flagg. Once you drive a mile down a narrow, one lane road, off course, you have to put it in reverse for the same difference to get back to the point of detour. It's a slow, arduous process, but I have faith in it, ultimately, despite what I pop off over to blow off steam.

Counter point: Would you?

Haha! That's what I've been asking myself for a LONG time my friend. :)

I have young children, a wife, 15+ employees, and extended family relying on me partially or totally.

I could take the easy route, just hunker down as I have been doing, and ride it out far, far easier than pretty much most everyone else.

The fear of someday having one of my children look me in the eye and asking why I didn't help, join, or DO more is one of the many reasons why I am still active in the Army Reserve to instill in them the need to "join the team" and contribute.

I now find myself wondering if they'll be asking me someday about why I didn't help, join, or DO more in regards to this mess and the battle for their future.

As they say actions speak louder than words!

[Irons]

Well, we're just not "there" in my estimation. And if we ever do, there will be no question about it. Not the scenario. Not the action. And it would be as obvious to everyone as flashpaper, but burn twice as quickly. In the meantime, you catch as catch can IMHO. And if we do ever get "there" then anything you have currently will be worthless. Save what you have materially on hand, your family, and your witts. It would be a "redoing of the stacks" as some might say. That's even more rare than a "Great Recession." What you teach your kids has less to do with what you do, than what you are. Never underestimate the power of "glean."

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Would you be truly willing to exchange it all for a fully functioning democracy that exists for it's citizens rather than string pulling special interests?

I think it's going to require a lot of sacrifice from a lot of good people to even approach that ideal.
The Congress is nervous. I'm guessing the President is too, but I'm guessing he's supposed to look confident all the time.

The populace has problems of a magnitude and nature that can scarcely be comprehended.
We're busy and Media obligingly diverts the attention of those who are eager for diversion.

Panem et Circenses, emphasis on the the Circenses

[sinophile]

Would you be truly willing to exchange it all for a fully functioning democracy that exists for it's citizens rather than string pulling special interests?

The average citizen shouldn't be concerned with AIG bonuses. They should be active in their own community and State's political processes - where they can make a difference in their lives and those of the people they most care about. That many are paying more attention to AIG then their own State's issues is another indicator that Democracy in America is dislocated.

If even 25% of citizens became active in their own community and State politics I think you would see an appropriate transfer of authority and influence from the Feds, to the States, down to the local jurisdictions and on to the people.

It doesn't have to be dramatic, ideological or revolutionary. People just need to decide to get involved locally and be reasonable and modest in what they expect government to do, as compared to what they ought to be doing for themselves.

Think about it...

[Hot Lips]

AIG is merely a symbol of the corporations that many American work for. Abuses of things like executive compensation exist in all companies and impact low level employees across the nation, thus the reason people are so frustrated and focused on it.

Want to shift the focus? Explain to the common man how getting involved in state and local political processes changes this for them when you also argue that politicians shouldn't question bad decisions of corporations like AIG who after lowering wages, benefits, etc of their workforce then look for taxpayer (eg their employees) funded bailouts when these executives run their companies into the ground.

The most recent examples were
AIG $170 million in bonuses for 400 executives.
Morgan Stanley $3 billion in bonuses for 6,500 brokers.

That's an average of $459,420 in retention bonuses per person.... on top of other bonuses and income... for failing at their jobs.

With the average household income (including their bonuses) at $50,000 - is it any wonder people are irrate?

[Nano]

AIG is merely a symbol of the corporations that many American work for. Abuses of things like executive compensation exist in all companies and impact low level employees across the nation, thus the reason people are so frustrated and focused on it.

Want to shift the focus? Explain to the common man how getting involved in state and local political processes changes this for them when you also argue that politicians shouldn't question bad decisions of corporations like AIG who after lowering wages, benefits, etc of their workforce then look for taxpayer (eg their employees) funded bailouts when these executives run their companies into the ground.

The most recent examples were
AIG $170 million in bonuses for 400 executives.
Morgan Stanley $3 billion in bonuses for 6,500 brokers.

That's an average of $459,420 in retention bonuses per person.... on top of other bonuses and income... for failing at their jobs.

With the average household income (including their bonuses) at $50,000 - is it any wonder people are irrate?

I can understand the irritation because I too have seen the short changing from those on top and those below for their incompetence. People are not being blamed for the need to vent in a situation where is seems they have little control over. People after the initial WTF's,WTH's, MTF's need to start asking questions and understanding the basics themselves. We are not children as a country and there are few in government who will spoon feed us correct and accurate information since it does not suit their interests.

The matter is that those bonuses did not fund themselves, the bank bailouts did not fund themselves nor did the opiate of the masses stimulus checks/package fund themselves. The power of the purse as distorted as the interpretation of the constitution is now;that power is held by congress. Want to blame someone for huge moral hazards that led to various bubbles in our finance /economic history look at congress and most importantly the people that elect them.

The fundamental question every American should be asking themselves right about now is what the role of government should be in a free and open society. Is it to care for us from cradle to grave?Is it to defend us from real or perceived threats? Or is it to allows us to determine our lives with as little intrusion into our private lives and play the role of a fair arbiter? It is it to function as a tool for combined defense and aspirations vital for our individial freedoms/dreams? There is no simple and easy answer people will debate that it is government's role to alleviate many risks involved with our human condition. Responsibility and freedom go hand in hand the more freedom one has the more responsibility one has and vice versa. The more freedom we have the less likely we will fall at the whims of the corrupt.

Though I don't share in the conspiracy theorist intent of this video uploaded. I do share the sentiment of the speech itself as it pertains at it did then to corruption in government and society.
Part1
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/E58u3_8oHsY
Part2
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/t5XVUhJ1RVs&feature=related

[loganinkosovo]

Come to find out, the idiots who were driving around in a Bus trying to intimidate the AIG employees were 30 ACORN members who were paid to be there. And they were outnumbered by the press by about 100 to 1.

If I had received an AIG bonus I would have spent it suing the Congress, ACORN and the Obama administration for violating my Constitutional and Civil Rights.

[Hot Lips]

Because demonstrators drove by your house under the watchful eye of the media and LEO's?

[Zoomie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/BTQ8vxkxCas
And here's proof that the AIG bonuses are no surprise to congress or anyone else, as they were grilling AIG about them back in December. :roll:

[Hot Lips]

Apparently AIG has yet to receive another $30 billion in bailout funds and the bonuses will be deducted from that. But, what to AIG excutives care, they got thier bonuses they way they inevitably to at those levels.

Are the companies they are dolling out funds to doing the same thing?

What are they doing with the rest of the money?

[California Joe]

They were just saying on the news that a lot of the banks that recieved earlier bailout money used some of it to give campaign contributions to congress...:|

Sorry if anyones head explodes.

[loganinkosovo]

Because demonstrators drove by your house under the watchful eye of the media and LEO's?

Wow! They drove past your house too?

How much of your bonus is Obama going to steal from you??



http://www.floppingaces.net/2009/03/21/acorns-working-family-party-organizes-bus-tour-of-aig-exec-homes/





AIG “distraction” descends into mob mentality as ACORN’s “Working Family Party” organizes bus tour of AIG exec homes (http://www.floppingaces.net/2009/03/21/acorns-working-family-party-organizes-bus-tour-of-aig-exec-homes/)

Posted by: MataHarley (http://www.floppingaces.net/author/mataharley/) @ 2:59 pm in ACORN (http://www.floppingaces.net/category/politics/barack-obama-politics/acorn-barack-obama-politics-politics/), Culture of Corruption (http://www.floppingaces.net/category/politics/culture-of-corruption/), Politics (http://www.floppingaces.net/category/politics/)
Visited 624 times, 90 so far today Up to the usual Alinsky antics - combining Rules #5 & #12 (see below rescript to jog your memory…) - The Connecticut Working Family Party (http://www.ct-workingfamilies.org/aboutus/victories.php) has decided to further harrass and terrorize AIG families that received bonuses by organizing a tour bus filled with … um…. socialists, Alinsky fans, O’faithful, and other activists who believe in intimidation tactics for political gain.
In a bittersweet irony, even the New York Magazine is appalled (http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2009/03/busload_of_crazies_to_tour_hom.html?imw=Y&f=most-emailed-24h5)to find themselves on the side of Rush Limbaugh, saying:

Right, they’re not fomenting rage, they’re just encouraging it. So if you happen to record someone’s address so you can return in the dead of night, it’s not like Working Families told you to! We know we sound paranoid and we really can’t believe we’re actually on the same side as Rush, but this is getting way out of hand. Oh, to have fat ladies in high heels clogging up the West Village again.
Ever since Congress - trying to deflect their own responsibility and exposure of their sheer negligence - and their puppet media fanned the AIG bonuses into a side show, more dastardly deeds done in the dark of night or behind closed doors have been masked from the public’s view.
Instead, the vicious circus has escalated out of control. AIG employees have found themselves the target (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/18/AR2009031804104_pf.html) of a particularly vicious public campaign. A powerful Congressman, virtually foaming at the mouth with fake indignation and spittle, was demanding names, while another elected official suggested they just “kill themselves”. Others are recipients of emails suggesting “the firm’s leaders “should be executed with piano wire around their necks.”


In the meantime, the e-mails from the public have continued to roll in, including death threats and calls to blow up the firm’s Wilton headquarters. Reporters and photographers have camped out in front of the offices in London and Connecticut. They have staked out employees’ houses. The New York Post identified one executive and labeled him “Jackpot Jimmy.” Another employee had to relocate his family after a London tabloid printed his address.
If the media and the powerful elected elite’s assault isn’t enough, Connecticut’s chapter of the The Family Working Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Families_Party) has decided to transport the group of wacko crazies to the homes via bus tours… providing the very real possibility of return trips accompanied by mobs, or worse… in the dark of night to carry out some of the very real threats.
The Working Family Party… sounds so innocuous, yes? What could be more American than families. In truth, this is a third party formed by left over New Party socialists, labor unions, community organizations and… yup… everyone’s favorite ACORN. Small wonder they are schooled in intimidation tactics on their fellow Americans.
Frankly, if it were my house, that tour would be met by me and several friends in rocking chairs on the porch with hunting rifles neatly laid across our laps.
And indeed, atop the increased security at the facilities to circumvent fears of employees being shot at while coming or going to work, some of the AIG families have increased security at their own homes.
Tell me… just what is President Obama’s culpability, and or responsibilities, in this mob tactic? These are, afterall his personal grassroots henchmen. Brad Woodhouse’s American’s United for Change - which includes 25+ organizations including MoveOn.org and ACORN - remain in close touch with the WH deputy chief of staff, Jim Messina.
It was only last week when the LA Times reported (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/washingtondc/la-na-campaign17-2009mar17,0,1283259,full.story) on the WH in consultation with grassroots on budget issues and campaigns to marginalize Republicans.

In promoting its agenda, the White House is using some rougher tactics.
Even as Obama positions himself as a post-partisan leader who wants to cooperate with Republicans, his White House is operating in a more combative fashion, and it has been consulting with allied groups aiming to marginalize the Republican Party leadership.

~~~
A spokesman for Americans United for Change said the group had consulted on strategy with Jim Messina, a White House deputy chief of staff and former Obama campaign official.
In addition, consultations on passing the president’s budget have been taking place between MoveOn.org and the White House public liaison office, headed by Valerie Jarrett, a close friend of the president. This month, MoveOn.org sent an e-mail touting Obama’s budget to 5 million members. It describes the blueprint as “ambitious, amazing and unapologetically progressive.
While Obama positions himself above the fray, he does nothing to call off his attack dogs. Despicable.
Is this lynch mob rule, adeptly carried out by ACORN derivatives, the change you voted for, America? If it is, I suggest you think twice before coming to my house. Because the 2nd Amendment hasn’t been repealed… yet.






http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/hc-aig-tour-bus-0322.artmar22202310,0,6074086.story






Text size: http://www.chicagotribune.com/images/components/atools-uparrow.gif (javascript:void(0);)http://www.chicagotribune.com/images/components/atools-downarrow.gif (javascript:void(0);)
From the Hartford Courant
Bus Tour Swings By Homes Of Executives Who Received Bonuses (http://www.courant.com/news/local/fc/hc-aig-tour-bus-0322.artmar22202310,0,1283060.story)

By ERIC GERSHON March 22, 2009 http://www.courant.com/media/photo/2009-03/45714372.jpg
Protesters hold a rally in front of AIG Financial Products in Wilton after participating in a bus tour of two AIG executives' homes in wealthy Fairfield neighborhoods. Activists from ACORN and Connecticut Working Families Party took the tour to deliver letters to the executives thanking them for agreeing to return huge bonuses. (CLOE POISSON / HARTFORD COURANT / March 21, 2009)


FAIRFIELD — - By the time Asaad Jackson showed up at the cobblestone edge of AIG executive Douglas Poling's driveway Saturday, Poling had already agreed to return his $6.4 million bonus. It was concession to public outrage over extra pay for employees of a company still in business due only to billions of dollars in taxpayer aid.

Still, Jackson, a 24-year old musician from Hartford's North End, meant to issue an invitation, even if Poling wasn't home and a pair of tight-lipped private security guards were his only representatives in sight.

Standing at the foot of the driveway, in a sun-soaked cul-de-sac in a Connecticut town synonymous with wealth, Jackson read aloud from a letter he and other visitors from poorer places wanted to hand-deliver but ultimately left in the mailbox.

"Now that we have had a chance to see your community," Jackson read before an international throng of about 40 journalists, "we would like to invite you to visit ours."
Then it was back on the bus for the next stop on a seven-hour outing originally billed as "a tour of the homes of 'rich and infamous' AIG executives."

As it turned out, the tour consisted of brief, uneventful visits to just two homes — Poling's and that of James Haas, another AIG employee who had already pledged to forfeit his bonus.

A third bonus recipient's home, belonging to Jonathan Liebergall in New Canaan, was dropped from the itinerary mid-tour because the bus was running behind schedule. Liebergall, too, has said he will return the bonus.

While more than 400 AIG employees received bonuses — now estimated by Connecticut Attorney General Richard Blumenthal at $218 million in all — tour organizers said they chose destinations from among employees whose identities had already been disclosed.

In the past week, AIG bonus recipients have been the subject of widespread scorn and, according to company CEO Edward M. Liddy, generalized death threats. Tour organizers said the event was not intended to intimidate or harass anyone.

"Given the climate, we didn't need to be outing other individuals," said Jon Green, director of Connecticut Working Families, a group that advocates for public policies favorable to the middle class and the poor and which organized the tour.

Green said the point of the tour was to contrast the circumstances of tour participants — several of whom have lost jobs or are facing foreclosure in a recession characterized by the failure or near-failure of once mighty companies such as AIG — with the circumstances of society's most privileged people.

"There's a growing gap between people who are generally insulated from the economic meltdown and those who are not," Green told reporters on the lawn outside AIG's red brick office in Wilton, where the tour concluded with a rally.

At least 73 employees received bonuses of $1 million or more. Congress is considering various measures to compel the return of the money, including a bonus tax of 90 percent already approved by the House of Representatives.

Roughly 40 activists boarded the bus in Hartford, joined it in Bridgeport or followed it in other cars, according to organizers.

At Poling's home, and later at Haas', who also lives in Fairfield, a small delegation of activists left the bus, followed by reporters, to try to deliver a letter addressed to "AIG Financial Products Executives." The letter invited the executives to consider the variety of pressing social needs that might benefit from the amount of money awarded them as bonuses, such as health care, housing and education.

At both houses they were greeted by private security guards who asked the visitors to "respect the property line" and refused to deliver the letter on their behalf but allowed them to read it aloud and place it in the mailbox.

There was no shouting or hostile conversation between the activists and the guards at either residence. Police were on hand at both places, mainly directing traffic, and there were no arrests.

"They were nice," said Mark Dziubek, 47, a recently laid-off metal worker from Southington who boarded the charter bus in Hartford and read the letter outside Haas' house.

Two guards parked in a Honda at the driveway leading down to Haas' home, a large white colonial with light blue shutters on a hill facing Long Island Sound, said he was not at the residence. They said their firm, Espion International, had been hired "by the tenant," not by AIG.

Asked where Haas was, one of the guards said, "He went away." They declined to give their names.

From Haas' home, the bus proceeded to the AIG Financial Products headquarters in Wilton, another affluent Fairfield County town of about 18,000 people, for a final rally.

There, the activists on the bus tour were joined by a few dozen apparently unaffiliated protesters from nearby towns, many of them bearing hand-made signs.

"Dude, Where's My Life Savings?" read one.

"Lifestyles of the Rich and Shameless," read another.

"Damn you, AIG," read a third.

And, of course, there were chants:

"Bail out Main Street, not Wall Street," the assembly rang out to passing traffic on busy Danbury Road. "AIG gets bailed out, the people get sold out."









http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2009/03/busload_of_crazies_to_tour_hom.html?imw=Y&f=most-emailed-24h5



http://action.workingfamiliesparty.org/t/4020/petition.jsp?petition_KEY=551


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/nyregion/20siege.html?_r=1&scp=9&sq=AIG&st=cse



A lot of these guys took 1 dollar a year for salaries and the Bonus is their actual paycheck.

[loganinkosovo]

They were just saying on the news that a lot of the banks that recieved earlier bailout money used some of it to give campaign contributions to congress...:|

Sorry if anyones head explodes.

Exactly what I've been saying for days now.....

The real Crooks are in Congress and the Whitehouse!


AIG must not have given Obama, Pelosi, Dodds, Frank, Reid, et al enough of a kickback.

[Hot Lips]

Wow! They drove past your house too?

Are you mental? You said "If I had received I would have sued...." and I bascially asked if it was because of the bus tour.... or did you have something else in mind when you said that?

[Hot Lips]

Sorry if anyones head explodes.

Too late. :|

[Hot Lips]

They have commitments to get $50 Million back and hope to get more back, BUT $85 million went to people outside the United States.:|

[mr. kurien]

Your kidding right ?

actually... i'm not sure too... but this is what i found at the border near southern thailand...

http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss196/mrkurien/DSC00871.jpg?t=1237878020

new MUFC jersey for next season... see no more AIG

[sinophile]

actually... i'm not sure too... but this is what i found at the border near southern thailand...

http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss196/mrkurien/DSC00871.jpg?t=1237878020

new MUFC jersey for next season... see no more AIG

I want one of those shirts!

[Arsenal]

America can chill on AIG now. Obama sez so.

...Obama is virtually certain to use Tuesday's prime-time news conference to continue an effort that began over the weekend: cooling the anti-AIG ferocity, now that it threatens to undermine his efforts to bail out the nation's deeply troubled financial sector...


The political dance may be far from over as Obama continues to weigh the potency of public anger against the danger of overreacting and alienating bank executives whose cooperation is needed in the bid to get credit flowing again.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090324/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama;_ylt=AvZaMPauvItBKsD4QnjgJ9jZn414

Maybe he's just trying to nip outrage in the bud since the Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae bonuses are about to get paid out.

[Hot Lips]

Maybe he's just trying to nip outrage in the bud since the Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae bonuses are about to get paid out.

la la la la I can't hear you la la la la
http://coloradoright.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/monkey_fingers_in_ears.jpg

[xav]

http://yarp.motivatedphotos.com/uploads/2009/3/20/633731574390137160-AIG-t2.jpg (http://www.motivatedphotos.com/?id=13109)

[tea drinker]

You mean you'd turn a blind eye to innocent people getting assaulted or possibly murdered because they received money from a legal and binding contract? This going after the AIG employees is a crock of shyte. We (collectively on this site) remind folks that just because a soldier/cop/insert high-profile occupation here does something dishonorable, not all soldiers/cops/insert high-profile occupation here are not guilty of the others crimes. But here, it's okay to after folks that had a contract, that everybody agreed too (before the bailout) and got what their contract called for. If we're going to go after anybody, let's go after (and I mean hold up to scrutiny, not assault) a Congress that has repeatedly given themselves raises despite their piss-poor performance and reckless disregard for fiscal responsibility in any regard.
Well, what you say sort of downplays the scale of the failing. If the cops screw up - somebody dies or is sent to prison wrongly.
Now, how many people have died through suicide in relation to this recession?
If all the cops and military in the world went and stole money out of every house, stole their pensions, burned down a million business's THEN you are getting into the scale of the disaster.
What do you think people would say about the military, or cops then? How many on this site would apologise?
(None, because they would all be RICH! p-))

[tea drinker]

Kinda matching the depression right now

[sinophile]

AIG staffer resignation letter from NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/25/opinion/25desantis.html?pagewanted=all)


The following is a letter sent on Tuesday by Jake DeSantis, an executive vice president of the American International Group’s financial products unit, to Edward M. Liddy, the chief executive of A.I.G.

Readers' Comments
Share your thoughts.
Post a Comment »
Read All Comments (387) »
DEAR Mr. Liddy,

It is with deep regret that I submit my notice of resignation from A.I.G. Financial Products. I hope you take the time to read this entire letter. Before describing the details of my decision, I want to offer some context:

I am proud of everything I have done for the commodity and equity divisions of A.I.G.-F.P. I was in no way involved in — or responsible for — the credit default swap transactions that have hamstrung A.I.G. Nor were more than a handful of the 400 current employees of A.I.G.-F.P. Most of those responsible have left the company and have conspicuously escaped the public outrage.

After 12 months of hard work dismantling the company — during which A.I.G. reassured us many times we would be rewarded in March 2009 — we in the financial products unit have been betrayed by A.I.G. and are being unfairly persecuted by elected officials. In response to this, I will now leave the company and donate my entire post-tax retention payment to those suffering from the global economic downturn. My intent is to keep none of the money myself.

click link above for more..

[California Joe]

Puts it a little more in perspective doesn't it.

[California Joe]

I guess if A Rod hits .350 and over 50 homeruns but the Yankees don't win the Pennant he should give back his 32 million....

[hskywalker]

AIG staffer resignation letter from NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/25/opinion/25desantis.html?pagewanted=all)



click link above for more..
Very legitimate.
America would be stupid to pass those legislations restricting bonus for firms receiving tarp funds.

[Laconian]

I guess if A Rod hits .350 and over 50 homeruns but the Yankees don't win the Pennant he should give back his 32 million....

If pro athletes were to start having to justify the amount they make based on performance or their worth to the company (team), there'd be a lot fewer millionaire ball players.

[Hot Lips]

Read this comment on another site...


That money isn't Liddy's to give or DeSantis's to take. If he wants to give 100% of the money to "organizations who are helping people suffering from the global downturn" he can give it back to the U.S. government. No organization in the world is doing more to help people suffering from the global downturn.


One set of people it helped is at AIG. If the government hadn't appropriated billions for that purpose, AIG would be in bankruptcy right now and DeSantis would have no job to resign from, let alone a bonus to dispose of as he pleases.


Which is it, by the way? He agreed to work for one dollar, or he agreed to work for one dollar and another million-plus in bonus pay during a year the company has made no profit? He can't have it both ways. Was the one dollar a year thing a pure stunt? I applaud stunts, but only at Cirque du Soleil, not in the financial district.


This is portrayed as a retention bonus, but it’s not clear in that case why Mr. DeSantis was promised one at all. I watched Mr. Liddy’s testimony, in which the retention bonuses were described as efforts to retain – only temporarily – the executives in the company whose jobs were to be eliminated, who understood their own books of business, and were qualified to shed those junk securities as efficiently as possible on behalf of the company.


Mr. DeSantis says those people are already gone, and that he isn’t one of them. He’s at pains to say he comes from a different division, a profitable one, handling an entirely different type of business from credit default swaps. Why was his job ever endangered, and why did they give him a new one (at a one million dollar bonus) doing something he has never done before?


Although DeSantis may not have been one of the AIG executives who helped tank the economy, he might as well have been. His greed, hypocrisy, and utter lack of perspective are exactly the attitudes that put us in this recession.


He complains to unemployed people that he has been working long hours. He complains to homeless people that he fears protestors around his costly home. He complains to auto workers whose benefits have been wiped out at the insistence of the government that the government wants to renege on his employer’s commitment to give him a million dollars. He boasts to people whose 401K’s have been wiped out that he is donating three quarters of a million dollars to charity and quitting his job in the middle of a deep recession. And he demands the public’s sympathy.

I’m sure Mr. DeSantis is a dandy professional and a right clever man, but he’s not very clever at appealing for sympathy. When we bailed out the automakers we made it contingent on the loss of pay, bonuses, unemployment protections and health benefits by ordinary Joes on the assembly line. Mr. DeSantis's cleverness at creating value by manipulating commodities markets is impressive, but I find it unimpressive compared to the efforts of those who created real value by creating the commodities in the first place. The commodities themselves have value, no matter what.

If Mr. DeSantis didn't know that perfectly well, he wouldn't have wanted a million bucks to buy commodities like a second Porsche. He wasn't buying the cleverness of the guy who manipulated Porsche AG stock; he was buying a damned car.


While he complains of being resented, he might examine a little more closely the nature of his own resentments. He doesn’t seem as outraged with the former bad actors at AIG as he is with Mr. Liddy (another dollar a year man with no responsibility for AIG’s woes), the Attorneys General of New York and Connecticut, members of Congress, and the American taxpayers.


I’m sorry he’s been threatened with violence, but I hardly feel responsible for it simply because I am outraged at his demands. The same taxpayers who want the bonus money back not only paid that bonus, but are paying for the police who will keep him and his family safe. That protection -- another expense we didn't need -- wouldn't be necessary if he hadn't been greedy enough to land on the shame list.


Most of us aren’t thugs, and the worst thugs all left AIG with golden parachutes. He whines that those people have escaped blame, but he doesn’t exactly go on to blame them. They are former colleagues, and who knows, might be future employers.


This taxpayer would gladly work for a living wage (Mr. DeSantis no longer needs a wage, and could obviously retire any time he pleases) at any financial firm or law firm where sleeves are being rolled up to resurrect the American economy. It's my duty as an American, and I'd feel great about it even without a million dollar bonus. Thanks to AIG and other behemoths (and a lack of government oversight) I'm actually out of a job at a law firm instead.


But I’m still expected by Mr. DeSantis to pay him, from the taxes I’ve already paid, a huge sum promised him by a teetering company.

The invincible sense of entitlement of these people even in the middle of a deep recession -- not only to a lucrative job, not only to millions in bonuses at a failed company, but that these bonuses should be paid to them by the U.S. taxpayer -- is nothing short of amazing. The kind of gall it takes to write a Times op ed complaining about those who would deny you those bonuses could be used to strip Mr. DeSantis’s sun porch.

That he may not have helped cause the recession is sheer good luck on his part. That he should be rewarded for lending a helping hand in the crisis is quite just. I’d be just fine with his accepting a decent salary and forgoing the bonus. But he chose not to, and if a dollar isn’t enough incentive, perhaps he should consult his patriotism (if he has any loyalty not for sale) for a better one.


And as a longtime high level employee of a company whose practices have brought us to this pass, he might even consider taking on some of the shame. Shame is notably absent from his letter, save for that he wants to heap on others. I’m not taking delivery on it. Mr. DeSantis’s isn’t a private missive to Mr. Liddy or Andrew Cuomo, it’s an attack on anybody who feels Mr. DeSantis doesn’t deserve a million dollars. I’m unapologetic.

[Flagg]

If pro athletes were to start having to justify the amount they make based on performance or their worth to the company (team), there'd be a lot fewer millionaire ball players.

It's funny you mention that.......

I can't seem to find the article, but a couple weeks ago I was reading about how the NBA is on it's way to financial ruin if it doesn't sort itself out.

It would seem that the days of ginormous guaranteed salaries and signing bonuses is well and truly over.

They will have to settle for simply rather large salaries and bonuses if teams are to survive....an NBA lockout would be catastrophic to both paycheck to paycheck overspending athletes as well as the overindebted teams they play for.

Lots of changes coming to professional sports economics.

When primadonna athletes aren't whingeing too much about resetting their financial expectations far lower, you know it's rough out there!

One good thing is maybe it will return some humility and some longevity to professional athletics and make it seem less mercenary.......I remember as a kid many athletes spent all or nearly all of their professional careers in one town......THAT's the kind of team I want to get behind!

[loganinkosovo]

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/AIG-Threats-We-will-get-your-children.html







Threats to AIG: "We Will Get Your Children" Documents reveal the level of threats against AIG employees

The anger in the threats against AIG (http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/topics?topic=American+International+Group+Inc.) executives is palpable.

"Get the bonus, we will get your children," someone identified only as "Jacob the Killer" hauntingly writes in an e-mail.

His is one of dozens of threats against AIG and its employees that were obtained from Connecticut Attorney General Richard Blumenthal (http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/topics?topic=Richard+Blumenthal)'s office under a Freedom of Information Act request by NBC (http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/topics?topic=NBC+Universal+Inc.) Connecticut.
Surprisingly, some of those making the threats left their e-mail addresses and phone numbers - making the job of law enforcement officers easier.
Here are some of the highlights (or rather, low-lights). We've cleaned up some of the nasty language, but you can use your imagination:
-- All you motherf***ers should be shot. Thanks for f***ing up our economy then taking our money.
-- Dear Sir: Ya'll should have the balls and come clean and give back the bonuses. I know you would never do this so the gov't ought to take you out back and shoot everyone of you crooked sonofb****es...I would be very careful when I went out side. This is just a warning. If I were ya'll I would be real afraid. Thanks, Bill.
-- I don't hope that bad things happen to the recipients of those bonuses. I really hope that bad things happen to the children and grandchildren of them! Whatever hurts them the most!!
-- You f***ing suck. Paying bonuses to the d*****s that made bad bets losing your company billions of dollars. I want to f***ing puke. Publish the list of those yankee scumbags so some good old southern boys can take care of them.
-- If the bonuses don't stop, it will be very likely that every CEO @ AIG has a bulls-eye on their backs.
-- We will hunt you down. Every last penny. We will hunt your children and we will hunt your conscience. We will do whatever we can to get those people getting the bonuses. Give back the money or kill yourselves.
-- All the executives and their families should be executed with piano wire around their necks --- my greatest hope.
-- You mother-f***ing, c***s***ing, d***l****ers need to be taken out one by one and shot in the head. There's a special place in hell for you pond scum. Watch your backs because someone will come to get you, you can be sure.
-- The Revolution is coming. The family members of your executives are not safe. Your blood will run through the streets in the coming months.
Among the documents is an e-mail from an unknown individual, who may be or may have been an employee: "Just arrived home to several threats on the answering machine. 'Give your money back or else,' terrible things going to happen, etc. Both private caller numbers."
The company presumably provided the threats to support their claim that testifying before a legislative committee Thursday would put their employees at physical risk.
AIG CEO Edward Liddy (http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/topics?topic=Edward+M.+Liddy) expressed fear during congressional hearings in Washtington D.C. last week that releasing the names of the executives who scored bonuses would put them at risk of violence from an enraged public.


So far, the only response from citizens angered by the bonus fiasco has come in the form of a small and peaceful protest Saturday in Connecticut at some of the lavish homes of AIG employees. Some executives in Connecticut have hired security firms to guard their homes, the Associated Press reported.
An agreement was reached Wednesday to have Stephen Blake (http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/topics?topic=Stephen+Blake), AIG's head of human resources, testify about the structure of the bonus awards.











I bet most of those addresses go right back to ACORN!

[Netzach]

In related news,

Pardon me while I graft > THIS ONE (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/23/iraq/main595277.shtml)< onto the hide of the AIG Monstrosity.

Now if the guns and ammo purchased in recent panic buying could be recovered under some kind of amnesty, then melted down
to help alleviate China’s metals shortage (in exchange for hard cash dollars) The economy would receive a much needed stimulus,
and former AIG employees would feel safer.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Bailouts, Not Bonuses, Are the Real Problem

by Brian Darling
Posted 03/23/2009 ET
Updated 03/23/2009 ET


End the Bailouts and Protect Capitalism

Politicians are apoplectic that American International Group (AIG) executives received $165 million in bonuses. AIG’s Financial Products unit engaged in credit-default swaps that put the insurance giant on the verge of insolvency before the feds bailed them out. Politicians are steamrolling forward with an initiative to tax their bonuses. Conservatives are outraged by the bonuses, but know that bonuses aren’t the problem -- the bailouts are.

Chairman of the House Financial Services Committee and author of the $700 billion Troubled Assets Relief Program (TARP) Barney Frank (D-Mass.) said, “I think the time has come to exercise our ownership rights. We own most of the company, and [we should] say as owner, ‘No, I’m not paying you the bonus, you didn’t perform.’” Liberals would rather act as managers of AIG than to break it up and privatize profitable units of the company.

Clearly, now is the time to end the bailouts of Wall Street, AIG and the auto industry. As Sen. Jim Inhofe (R-Okla.) said last week:

"Should we be mad at the executives who are involved in this and who ran a once-great company into the ground? Yes. But that’s not where the blame game ends. That’s not where the buck stops. I know that I will upset some of my colleagues when I remind them, and the American people, that much of the blame should be directed right here, to the members of this body, the U.S. Senate, to the other side of the Capitol in the U.S. House for voting for the original $700 billion bailout."

Another senator advocating a course change on bailouts is Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.) who spoke on the Senate floor:

"The more we proceed with policies whereby the government owns 80% of the stock of a private insurance company -- having poured $170 billion of our wealth into it -- the more we are inevitably compelled to direct how the company operates, to the point of deciding who their executives should be, what the company’s salary scale should be, or what aircraft it can or cannot have or where or what kind of corporate retreat they may have, and whether or not it can pay bonuses."

The Heritage Foundation, my employer, wrote last November of Treasury’s bait and switch. Then Secretary Hank Paulson announced that the feds weren’t going to buy troubled assets and instead they bailed out banks and the auto industry. The second half of the TARP monies may be used by President Obama to provide federal financing for investors in securities backed by consumer debt such as car loans, student loans, and credit cards and, further, might provide subsidies to mitigate mortgage foreclosures. According to The Heritage Foundation, “these possible moves, however, would likely exacerbate rather than ease the current financial problem.” The moves by President Bush and potential bailouts by President Obama will do little to give value to troubled assets and free up bank credit for the business world.

Granting bureaucrats unfettered discretion in implementing the TARP program has proven to be a mistake. Conservatives in Congress should use the debate over AIG bonuses to abolish the TARP and forbid future bailouts.

Where’s the Budget?

President Obama hasn’t yet finished his $3.6 trillion budget, yet the House of Representatives appears poised to pass a budget resolution based on his $3.6 trillion outline. The budget will guide how Congress spends your hard-earned money; it’s too important to be debated using an outline and placeholders. For the sake of transparency, Congress should debate the full Obama budget and the implications it will have on our children’s future. The American people deserve to see the details before Congress rubberstamps a plan that spends, taxes and borrows too much of your money.

Conservative Cheers

Cheers to Sen. Jim Bunning (R-Ken.), one of the fathers of the Armed Pilots Program, for digging in his heels to save the program from possible elimination or downsizing by the Obama administration. Pilots have expressed deep concern about proposed cuts to the program (and its potential abolition). Bunning told HUMAN EVENTS that “the Armed Pilots program has proven to be the most effective tool in protecting the cockpit from a 9-11 style attack. The program is the first line of deterrence and last line of defense. It would be unwise for the Obama administration to take any action to weaken or possibly even end the program.”

Earlier this month, Sen. David Vitter (R-La.) forced a vote on the elimination of Congress’s automatic annual pay raises. After some political gamesmanship, the Senate tabled his amendment. Last week, though, senators rethought their opposition and passed Vitter’s bill by voice vote. Taxpayers cannot claim victory yet, though -- House leaders seem disinclined to take up the measure.

Brian Darling is director of U.S. Senate Relations at The Heritage Foundation.

Link (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?print=yes&id=31165)

[sinophile]

Here is what should be the last word on this thread. You can stop blaming AIG employees now.


Oversight of Derivatives Said to Be Adequate
By JOSEPH KAHN
Published: Wednesday, November 10, 1999
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Despite the collapse of a giant hedge fund last year that required a rescue arranged by the Federal Reserve, top government regulators have concluded that they do not need to supervise the use of complex financial contracts by hedge funds or other institutions.

Four government agencies that oversee banks, brokerage houses and financial markets dismissed the idea that regulators need fresh power to police financial derivatives that are traded privately, or over the counter. The conclusion was contained in a report to Congress, which had requested the review. It strikes a blow against those who had sought more official oversight of the multitrillion dollar derivatives market.

Congress had asked a working group of four agencies -- the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Commodity Futures Trading Commission, the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department -- to consider the issue even before the rescue of Long-Term Capital Management, a hedge fund based in Greenwich, Conn., that nearly collapsed, roiling financial markets in September 1998. But the fund's near-collapse added urgency to the study, with some in Congress and the academic world expressing concern that loose regulation of derivatives might have contributed to the troubles.

Long-Term Capital lost about $4 billion when bets it had placed in stock and bond markets -- most through private derivatives contracts -- went bad. Wall Street banks and brokerage firms saved the hedge fund to prevent what some feared might be global financial panic.

The same working group made recommendations on supervision of hedge funds earlier this year. The group said then that hedge funds should reveal more about their risk profile to the public, and that banks and brokerage houses that deal with hedge funds should take steps to make sure that the use of borrowed money does not get out of hand.

But in the latest report the regulators sided with people in the financial industry in recommending against any direct supervision of derivatives, which are contracts based on stocks, bonds, commodities and currencies. Privately traded derivatives are a major part of everyday business for banks, securities firms, hedge funds, and many companies looking to protect their assets against some future financial event.

''It's really a small number of people who wanted any kind of new regulation,'' said Bradley P. Ziff, an expert on derivatives and risk at the consulting firm Arthur Andersen.

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/11/10/business/oversight-of-derivatives-said-to-be-adequate.html?n=Top%2FReference%2FTimes%20Topics%2FSubjects%2FS%2FStocks%20and%20Bonds

[Flagg]

Here is what should be the last word on this thread. You can stop blaming AIG employees now.



http://www.nytimes.com/1999/11/10/business/oversight-of-derivatives-said-to-be-adequate.html?n=Top%2FReference%2FTimes%20Topics%2FSubjects%2FS%2FStocks%20and%20Bonds

I disagree that it's "the last word".

There should be REASONABLE leverage limits placed on derivative positions.

There should be REASONABLE margin requirements on derivative contracts.

ESPECIALLY for those entities that exist soley to exploit profit opportunities without any underlying purpose for taking a position....don't make it illegal........but limit their ability to create a financial neutron bomb.

Companies and individuals that have a legitimate purpose to hedge....fantastic.

Companies or individuals that have a profit-only, rather than only risk mitigation focus(hence the word HEDGE), should continue to be allowed to do so, but only under stricter lower leverage and higher margin requirements.

Were there regulatory hurdles, enforcement entities, and leverage/margin requirements in place......yep.

Were they effectively enforced or adjusted to ensure a safe and healthy market? Hell no.

Madoff and Stanford are two SMALL examples of related long-term catastrophic failure.

AIG, GS, Citi, etc.......some of these biggies are/were carrying trillions of highly leveraged derivatives on their balance sheets...what's hiding OFF the balance sheet?

Hence no one actually going bankrupt....and only being ring fenced since this financial plutonium is so fcuking deadly....bankruptcy brings counterparty claims that simply cannot be completed.

LTCM was a bottle rocket compared to this supernova.

What are we at now?

Have we hit 1.5 quadrillion yet in total global outstanding derivatives?

If less than 1% of total global outstanding derivatives "go critical" it's REALLY all over.

Derivatives is at the HEART of this massively interconnected clusterfcuk.

[sinophile]

I disagree that it's "the last word".
There should be REASONABLE leverage limits placed on derivative positions.
There should be REASONABLE margin requirements on derivative contracts.
ESPECIALLY for those entities that exist soley to exploit profit opportunities without any underlying purpose for taking a position....don't make it illegal........but limit their ability to create a financial neutron bomb.
Companies and individuals that have a legitimate purpose to hedge....fantastic.
Companies or individuals that have a profit-only, rather than only risk mitigation focus(hence the word HEDGE), should continue to be allowed to do so, but only under stricter lower leverage and higher margin requirements.
Were there regulatory hurdles, enforcement entities, and leverage/margin requirements in place......yep.
Were they effectively enforced or adjusted to ensure a safe and healthy market? Hell no.
Madoff and Stanford are two SMALL examples of related long-term catastrophic failure.
AIG, GS, Citi, etc.......some of these biggies are/were carrying trillions of highly leveraged derivatives on their balance sheets...what's hiding OFF the balance sheet?
Hence no one actually going bankrupt....and only being ring fenced since this financial plutonium is so fcuking deadly....bankruptcy brings counterparty claims that simply cannot be completed.
LTCM was a bottle rocket compared to this supernova.
What are we at now?
Have we hit 1.5 quadrillion yet in total global outstanding derivatives?
If less than 1% of total global outstanding derivatives "go critical" it's REALLY all over.
Derivatives is at the HEART of this massively interconnected clusterfcuk.

First, I was pointing out AIG is not really to blame. Congress and several agencies had (and have) the responsibility to regulate... perhaps even to the extent you advocate.

Next, derivatives aren't really to blame. If the ratings agencies had accurately rated the MBS's and CDO's using ratings methodologies appropriate for what were (at the time) innovative new derivatives... then the risks would have been more transparent. Probably there was corruption in the rating agency, originator relationship.

Finally, Madoff and Stanford were outright frauds where the parties involved apparently knew they were violating laws. That's very different from over-leveraging, which perhaps should be a crime, but is not.

[Flagg]

First, I was pointing out AIG is not really to blame.

I would disagree, while there is a massive amount of blame to go around to match the massive amount of stupidity(both intentional and unintentional) thus far displayed...AIG certainly deserves some of it.

The fact that AIG has become a conduit for dispersing a significant chunk of bailout money with limited public oversight into a blackhole of counterparty BS is quite disturbing.


Congress and several agencies had (and have) the responsibility to regulate... perhaps even to the extent you advocate.

And as we both know they either intentionally or unintentionally failed miserably in effectively regulating this pile of poop.

Next, derivatives aren't really to blame.

You are correct and I agree completely that an inanimate object such as a derivative, or a neutron bomb in and of itself isn't to blame.........the intentional and unintentional mishandling misuse of them IS...and using the example of a neutron bomb is entirely intentional

If the ratings agencies had accurately rated the MBS's and CDO's using ratings methodologies appropriate for what were (at the time) innovative new derivatives... then the risks would have been more transparent. Probably there was corruption in the rating agency, originator relationship.

Here's a short excerpt from the following article:


• the repeal of Depression-era regulations separating commercial and investment banking;

• a congressional ban on the regulation of credit-default swaps;

• major increases in the amount of leverage allowed to investment banks;

• a light (dare I say invisible?) hand at the Securities and Exchange Commission in its regulatory enforcement;

• an international agreement to allow banks to measure their own riskiness;

• and an intentional failure to update regulations so as to keep up with the tremendous pace of financial innovation.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice




Finally, Madoff and Stanford were outright frauds where the parties involved apparently knew they were violating laws. That's very different from over-leveraging, which perhaps should be a crime, but is not.

While I agree that Madoff and Stanford are a simpler case.....they DO relate......their ability to "hide in plain sight" for so long shows some clear examples of poor regulatory rigor or enforcement......or could they have been intentionally sacrificed NOW to draw attention away from ????