The Vietnam Memorial Wall in D.C.

[commanding]

I was somewhat hesitant to bring this up. However, with compassion I will. I wonder how many mpnet folks have been to "the wall"? Or how many folks, know a man or woman whose name is on that wall?

I myself, was of age to have gone to VN, but was not sent there by the US Army. ~ I have never had the chance yet, to visit the wall. Since it was built, one of my friends (Bob) made a rubbing of the name of a mutual high school buddy whose name is on the wall. Bob sent the rubbing to me. I in turn had written a poem about our buddy, my friend Bob wrapped it in plastic and left the poem at his name there as a remembrance.

I heard the song by George Jones this morning "50,000 names", and got me to thinking of that beautiful memorial, to those tens of thousands of young lives, lost so long ago.

[California Joe]

Been there many times. It's very moving. I especially like the Frederick Hart sculpture of the 3 grunts staring across at the wall.

[dwight]

Never bin there but I know I have a family member on it. never knew the men he died before my birth.

[Laconian]

Been there a couple of times. Moving to say the least. As is the Korean War Memorial nearby.

[oswald]

Been there many times. It's very moving. I especially like the Frederick Hart sculpture of the 3 grunts staring across at the wall.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg254/oswald621/mp%20net/vnmem01.jpg

[commanding]

Been there many times. It's very moving. I especially like the Frederick Hart sculpture of the 3 grunts staring across at the wall.

I am afraid, when I do go, and I hope too before I cork it, that I will weep and sob, like a woman. I know I do when I visit my friends grave, but at least there there is no one there to see me cry like a 12 year old girl.

[Hollis]

There is also a roving wall, that travels through the states for Vets and Family who can not make it to D.C.

[lt tahoe]

I make it a point to visit every time I visit my folks. That and the Tomb of the Unknowns are the two places I make sure I visit every time.

[dwight]

http://www.pointmanok.org/reflectionsjpg.jpeg

this one says it all for me,

[commanding]

I make it a point to visit every time I visit my folks. That and the Tomb of the Unknowns are the two places I make sure I visit every time.

I have visited the tomb of the unknown at Arlington Natl. Cem. and it is very moving. Course that was back in the 1972 era, long before the wall was even an concept. I thought the young lady who designed the VN wall, did a wonderful conceptual job, as it goes down into the land, and starts with a taper and ends with a tapered point, very similar to the progress of the war. The mirror finish on the panels reflecting the visitors, is very symbolic also. the whole design is extremely symbolic and dignified.

[Warden]

I visited the Vietnam Wall, and the Korean War Memrial when i visited my Aunt in 2001. Very moving, also met a Vietnam Vet selling his book whilst i was there so i stopped and talked to him for about 20 minutes.

[Stainless Steel Rat]

I have visited the tomb of the unknown at Arlington Natl. Cem. and it is very moving. Course that was back in the 1972 era, long before the wall was even an concept. I thought the young lady who designed the VN wall, did a wonderful conceptual job, as it goes down into the land, and starts with a taper and ends with a tapered point, very similar to the progress of the war. The mirror finish on the panels reflecting the visitors, is very symbolic also. the whole design is extremely symbolic and dignified.

But remember, a lot of people opposed the concept when it was chosen, the idea of a black wall in the ground didn't seem quite 'right' to those used to large, Greek and Roman-type monuments--and that it was a Young, Female Asian artist also raised more than a few eyebrows at the time ("damn liberal hippie chick going to $!% up"). That's one of the reasons the statue of the GI's is there, it was a compromise to satisfy critics of the Wall.

Turns out she done good. Real, real good.

Like others, I was of age during Vietnam but was never called (my draft number was in the 300's). but I have been to the wall, and found a few with my family name, and I defy any American to walk the length of the Wall and not feel something.

[California Joe]

Frederick Hart was actually on the committee that picked Maya Lin's winning entry.

It was in response to the controversy that he agreed to sculpt and place the 3 soldiers across from the Wall to assuage the publics need for a more traditional bronze monument. I think it compliments the Wall perfectly.

I used to work for a screen printer and every year I would design, and we would print thousands of T shirts for the "Ride to the Wall". I spent a lot of time down there.

Commanding, you'd be in the minority if you didn't have a visible reaction to it while you are there.

[oswald]

Who did the sculpture of the nurses at the other end of the wall?

[California Joe]

Glenna Goodacre...I had to look it up...:)

[tomonator]

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb255/tomosail/hosting%20photos/Img2008-04-19-0080.jpg

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb255/tomosail/hosting%20photos/Img2008-04-19-0065.jpg

[BlackJack22]

Ive seen the traveling vietnam wall. It was at a VA Hospital in my area when I was 16 yrs old. My mom had a classmate on the wall.

[Jacknola]

http://inlinethumb54.webshots.com/44981/2717028830103673033S600x600Q85.jpg (http://news.webshots.com/photo/2717028830103673033OTGAco)

I have been to the wall many times, and knew/know quite a few people who's names are there.

Not only that, when the controversy about the design of the wall was in full flower in the early 1980’s, I gave testimony in support of adding the statue and flag to the wall in front of the Washington Fine Arts Commission in October, 1982.

That testimony was in opposition to the incredible collection of leftwhiners who were there, determined to hyjack our monument that we raised money for and commissioned, and turn it into their own "wailing wall" meeting place for anti-war protests of the future. (My testimony, in part linked below).

Therein lies a tale.. The architect, Maya Lin, and her left-wing supporters, were all reflexive anti-military fanatics who did their best to foist a “monument to Jane Fonda” upon the veterans. We vets had "foolishly" decided to hold a art-judged competition for the design, failing to understand the virtually unanimous military-antagonistic mindset of the art world ... in toto.

Only after an epic and protracted bureaucratic battle did we win the “privilege" of putting a heroic statue and a flag at "our" monument. Typical of the art-types that bitterly opposed a flag pole and statue was the counter proposal to put a grove of weeping willows to compliment the wall instead of a flag.

Well, we Viet vets have since then made the monument our own and have physically NOT allowed it to become a wailing wall for anti-war protesters of future generations, AS WE ALL THOUGHT IT WAS DESTINED TO BE. And I am moved and remember a great deal whenever I visit it.

But I also remember this when I visit it ... Do you know what other images I see reflected in the wall, other than the images of our lost comrades? I see millions of murdered Vietnamese and Cambodians dead, tortured under excruciating circumstances because of a bunch of feckless cowardly people who never had the guts to stand up and take credit for the great accomplishment of their life... the handing of those nations over to a ruthless and murderous enemy.

You owe it to yourself to become familiar with the battle over this monument between the Vietnam veterans and the artsy-fartsy left wing community including Maya Lin herself... who made a career of anti-military jabs and speeches... She even criticized the the placing of a flag and statue as akin to putting "grafetti on Michalangelo."

Here is a link to a good synopsis of the events of 1980-83.

http://digital.lib.lehigh.edu/trial/vietnam/r4/1982/

And if you can find a copy of a wonderful article by Tom Wolfe, published in the Washington Post, (search for: "Art Disputes War: The Battle of the Vietnam Memorial," by Tom Wolfe, Washington Post, 10/13/82), you may begin to understand.

(note: I cannot find a copy of Wolfe's amazing article on line, so I might scan a copy that I've kept all these years and post it here... it is an absolutely stunning read...the single best synopsis of post Vietnam attitudes of society, arty community, and veterens, that I've ever read, anywhere.)

Here are some excerpts from Wolfe's article... note: "Webb" refers to James Webb, who co-chaired the Viet Vet Memorial funding before becoming Secretary of the Navy under Press Bush '41, and later Senator from Virginia, in the process morphing into one of "them."

From Tom Wolfe's article:

"This is the story of art experts and the Vietnam veterans -- and of how the veterans asked for a war memorial and wound up with an enormous pit they now refer to as a 'tribute to Jane Fonda' . . . . Shouldn't public sculpture delight the public or inspire the public or at least remind the public of cherished traditions? Nonsense. Why reinforce the bourgeoisie's pathetic illusions? . . . Veterans like Carhart and Webb were dumbfounded and then outraged. . . . Over the past two months art mullahs of every description have begun a holy war against the addition of the statue."

For court record of my testimony (in part) to the Washington Fine Arts Commission, Oct. 1982, see:
http://digital.lib.lehigh.edu/trial/vietnam/files/round4/williamsdowling.pdf

[commanding]

Glenna Goodacre...I had to look it up...:)
I think that lady Goodacre, glenda or Glenna, seems like did the Sac gold dollar coin design too. I thought I heard she lives in the Texas panhandle, like Lubbock maybe.

[BearInBunnySuit]

http://inlinethumb54.webshots.com/44981/2717028830103673033S600x600Q85.jpg (http://news.webshots.com/photo/2717028830103673033OTGAco)

I have been to the wall many times, and knew/know quite a few people who's names are there.

Not only that, when the controversy about the design of the wall was in full flower in the early 1980’s, I gave testimony in support of adding the statue and flag to the wall in front of the Washington fine Arts Commission in October, 1982.

That testimony was in opposition to the incredible collection of leftwiners who were there, determined to hyjack our monument that we raised money for and commissioned, and turn it into their own "wailing wall" meeting place for anti-war protests of the future. (My testimony, in part linked below).

Therein lies a tale.. The architect, Maya Lin, and her left-wing supporters, were all reflexive anti-military fanatics who did their best to foist a “monument to Jane Fonda” onto the veterans, who had "foolishly" decided to hold a art-judged competition for the design, failing to understand the military-antagonistic mindset of the art world in unison.


http://digital.lib.lehigh.edu/trial/vietnam/files/round4/williamsdowling.pdf (http://digital.lib.lehigh.edu/trial/vietnam/files/round4/williamsdowling.pdf)

Thank you for the background on the memorial.
If it's any consolation, as a person who did not know anyone directly involved in the war, the memorial is still very moving and powerful. For me, at least, it is dignified and yet speaks volumes about the sacrifice and the human toll paid to fight an unpopular war.

[Jacknola]

Thank you for the background on the memorial.
If it's any consolation, as a person who did not know anyone directly involved in the war, the memorial is still very moving and powerful. For me, at least, it is dignified and yet speaks volumes about the sacrifice and the human toll paid to fight an unpopular war.

...to me, this is part of the insane legacy of that war. People such as yourself are convinced that Vietnam was “an unpopular war...” and that the people who went were the unfortunate ones.

As Tom Wolfe said... here is the great victory of the antis. They managed to turn the big finger... In WWII, if you did not serve, society’s big accusing finger pointed at you and demanded you explain why. In Vietnam, the lefties somehow managed to turn that finger, point it at the vets and demand of them, “why did you serve?”

Let me set that freaking record straight... the war was no more “unpopular” than any other war we have fought, Korea, the Spanish American War, the Mexican War, The War of 1812, even the Revolution. But the anti-vietnam people who were in the streets in effect supporting the North Vietnamese objectives, had a sympathetic if radical echo in the media that crossed all lines previously taboo.

Ask yourself this... if the war was so “unpopular,” why did Richard Nixon, the cold warrior, anti-communist supremo, win two crushing election victories? The war was “unpopular” with highly vocal elements, hippie, druggie, yippie, anti-parent, anti-adult, feckless people, and some truly committed anti-US revolutionaries, drawn to the hip lifestyle. But never ever where they a majority, or close to it.

Even when the US congress conducted a coup against Pres. Richard Nixon aided and abetted by elements of the FBI and bureaucracy, and then acquiesced to allow the SE Asian nations to perish, a majority of citizens did not "support" that action.

The unpopularity of the war occurred later... as a terrible result of the fall of those countries and some serious guilt buildup in the US media establishment... never expunged, or addressed.

[Solomin]

I am afraid, when I do go, and I hope too before I cork it, that I will weep and sob, like a woman. I know I do when I visit my friends grave, but at least there there is no one there to see me cry like a 12 year old girl.

I have seen my 60 year old father cry twice in his entire life. When his mother died and when we visited the memorial. No shame in it.

[Laconian]

...to me, this is part of the insane legacy of that war. People such as yourself are convinced that Vietnam was “an unpopular war...” and that the people who went were the unfortunate ones. ...


Jack, I agree. In my limited study of the war, and my exposure to Viet Nam vets while a cadet and officer every NCO, officer and Warrant I ever came in contact with that served there echoed that same sentiment. And yet we are not over that silliness and nit-wits flock to the street at any military intervention as if their protests do anything other than bring aid and comfort to the enemy.

[AZZenny]

Facing It
-Yusef Komunyakaa


My black face fades,
hiding inside the black granite.
I said I wouldn't
dammit: no tears.
I'm stone. I'm flesh.
My clouded reflection eyes me
like a bird of prey, the profile of night
slanted against morning. I turn
this way--the stone lets me go.
I turn that way--I'm inside
the Vietnam Veteran's Memorial
again, depending on the light
to make a difference.
I go down the the 58,022 names,
half-expecting to find
my own in letters like smoke.
I touch the name of Andrew Johnson;
I see the ****y trap's white flash.
Names shimmer on a woman's blouse
but when she walks away
the names stay on the wall.
Brushstrokes flash, a red bird's
wings cutting across my stare.
The sky. A plane in the sky.
A white vet's image floats
closer to me, then his pale eyes
look through mine. I'm a window.
He's lost his right arm
inside the stone. In the black mirror
a woman's trying to erase names:
No, she's brushing a boy's hair

[California Joe]

Jack, the Wall may have started out to be an artsy fartsy anti war themed "memorial" but from what I've seen from my times down there reflected quite the opposite in my opinion.

[Laconian]

Yeah, CJ, I think his point was that it was because Tom Carhart, James Webb and countless other vets got involved so they got what they wanted despite the artsy-fartsies.

[Coyote850]

My cousin was 19 years old when he was KIA in Vietnam. I was 4 months old when he died. I have visited the Wall twice. The first time I walked up to the Wall I was afraid to breathe. There were vets and families there looking for loved ones and friends. The Wall has a presence, I'd swear it has a soul. If you ever go see the Wall, stand at the center and look both ways as far as you can down the Wall. The names go on so far.........if you don't get tears in your eyes, well then you're not human.
The traveling Wall came to my hometown last summer. I have a picture of my cousin I copied and left there. He's standing in the middle, with two of his buddies. His name on the Wall is directly above him.

David A Mitchell, Served with E Company, 1st Battalion, 7th Cavalry Regiment, 1st Air Cavalry Division, Vietnam. KIA March 17, 1969.

Rest in Peace David.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l145/Coyote850/IMG_0138.jpg

[BearInBunnySuit]

...to me, this is part of the insane legacy of that war. People such as yourself are convinced that Vietnam was “an unpopular war...” and that the people who went were the unfortunate ones.

As Tom Wolfe said... here is the great victory of the antis. They managed to turn the big finger... In WWII, if you did not serve, society’s big accusing finger pointed at you and demanded you explain why. In Vietnam, the lefties somehow managed to turn that finger, point it at the vets and demand of them, “why did you serve?”

Let me set that freaking record straight... the war was no more “unpopular” than any other war we have fought, Korea, the Spanish American War, the Mexican War, The War of 1812, even the Revolution. But the anti-vietnam people who were in the streets in effect supporting the North Vietnamese objectives, had a sympathetic if radical echo in the media that crossed all lines previously taboo.

Ask yourself this... if the war was so “unpopular,” why did Richard Nixon, the cold warrior, anti-communist supremo, win two crushing election victories? The war was “unpopular” with highly vocal elements, hippie, druggie, yippie, anti-parent, anti-adult, feckless people, and some truly committed anti-US revolutionaries, drawn to the hip lifestyle. But never ever where they a majority, or close to it.

Even when the US congress conducted a coup against Pres. Richard Nixon aided and abetted by elements of the FBI and bureaucracy, and then acquiesced to allow the SE Asian nations to perish, a majority of citizens did not "support" that action.

The unpopularity of the war occurred later... as a terrible result of the fall of those countries and some serious guilt buildup in the US media establishment... never expunged, or addressed.

I wasn't trying to rile you up or in any way pass judgment on a war that I was not a part of. I'm not sure what you mean by "people such as yourself" but whatever you may be trying to say, my post was about the memorial rather than an editorial on the war itself. In any case, CJ expressed what I was trying to articulate much better than I did.

[Jacknola]

California and Bear, I mean nothing personal. What you see is a lot of pent up frustration about that war of ours. The misrepresentations, misunderstandings, the public lack of knowledge and the deliberate falsehoods about it kept alive in a knee-jerk media.

The battle to make a memorial for us, the veterans, rather than one for the military hating wing of the hippie-media movement of the time was excrutiating. But.... as I said, once the monument was in place, and we had our flag and even a statue to take a picture in front of, we made it ours. How??? By the most amazing dedication ceremony in history...one that absolutely outraged the left and even the artist herself.

It featured General Westmoreland personnally leading over 100,000 vets dressed in bits and pieces of uniforms down Pennsylvania Ave to one of the greatest speeches ever given (after the rambling indian-witch doctor mumbo-jumbo political correct junk was over). I was there for the dedication, and I wish I had the cartoon that appeared in the Wash Post the next day celebrating that event. It showed a hoard of ratty-tatty viet vets, happily bunkering and sandbagging the monument, hollering "hey mama-san" at a disgusted Maya Lin and a troop of her headband bretheren.

Then, something else happened. You all may not know, but a big demonstration in Washington was held shortly after the dedication of the VN memorial. I think it was against Reagan's deployment of missles in Europe, or Granada, or SDI, or something, and featured all the usual left-wing groups and aging anti-war hippies.

At that demonstration, a major anti-military rally was supposedly planned to be held at the memorial. Several hundred, maybe several thousand very serious vets, led by Special Forces chapter members, gathered to defend the wall, I assure you that we were quite... ernest ... , and the threat of that defense caused the latter-day protesters to pause and the lacadasical park police to step in.

That was the LAST time anyone tried to turn the Vn memorial into a wailing wall. It is now ours, not Maya Lin's.

Bear, I didn't mean you personally in my previous post. I refer to the ethos, the automatic responses about our war that comes all to often. I do suggest carefully examining one's theses about Vietnam. I can almost assure that many of the basic assumptions carried by very intelligent and informed people are erroneous. These include "insurgent or revolutionary war," "drug use", "mental problems of Viet Vets", "draftees war", unpopular, illegal, unethical, etc.

I will be at the wall and everywhere on the mall again this memorial day, even though it is a Yankee holiday. Rolling thunder will happen again... and it is the greatest show on earth for a viet vet... I recommend that weekend in Washington DC to everyone.

Here is another reason I like that Rolling thunder weekend... me in 1966, about 8 months before deployment.

http://inlinethumb41.webshots.com/43112/2517868480103673033S500x500Q85.jpg (http://family.webshots.com/photo/2517868480103673033VUXgMj)

[AZZenny]

I knew Maya Lin's parents, and knew her mother pretty well, having studied under her for 4 years. I am fairly sure Maya would have learned artistic integrity from her parents. Her idea for a place of deep reflection on loss was, as I recall, meant to allow for a grieving that had been hard to come by for the veterans, the families, and the country. She never meant it as a primarily political statement, certainly not as a mark of shame. What the artsy left and what the angry right made of it, and the circus their inevitably knee-jerk conflict brought to the discussion is fortunately not visible in the finished product, which is a work of art and one of the most deeply moving memorial monuments anywhere.

[armymom1228]

Never bin there but I know I have a family member on it. never knew the men he died before my birth.

Give me the name and I will do you a rubbing and send it to you...
PM me name and an address
armymom

[armymom1228]

I am afraid, when I do go, and I hope too before I cork it, that I will weep and sob, like a woman. I know I do when I visit my friends grave, but at least there there is no one there to see me cry like a 12 year old girl.

Hun, you would not be alone.. we all cry, those of us who have both freinds and loved ones names there.. it is almost normal.
The first time..go at night. all I will tell you..I was up here 2 yrs
before I could bring myself to go. I started crying the second I started down that walk.. and as I looked at his name, I could not breathe.
then arms surrounded me and gave me a strong shoulder to cry on.. it was a Viet Vet.. we both cried for what was and was lost. It is a common occurence.. so don't be shy.. The last time I was there, I left photos of his granson and son together.. I wanted him to see them.. silly as it sounds..

The time to go is Memorial Day weekend.. Ride to the Wall and ALL the Vets are there. It is the one time of the year whatever is left at the wall stays for the weekend. On Sunday, last year, I think it was 2 or 3 hours solid of motorcycles riding by to honor our fallen and MIA's.. to remind them, they are not forgotten..
AM

[armymom1228]

I took this last Memorial Day weekend.. the gentleman is a former Marine. He took his shirt off for his lady to take a photo and was unable to redress for at least 30 minutes.. as so many Vets _had to_ get thier own photo
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/kosmikbubbles/083.jpg

this batch was taken Memorial Day 2007
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/kosmikbubbles/PictureorVideo389.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/kosmikbubbles/PictureorVideo387.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/kosmikbubbles/PictureorVideo382.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/kosmikbubbles/PictureorVideo385.jpg

[Jacknola]

Ah yes... Memorial Day, rolling thunder... and the cast of thousands of vets on the mall from the WWII memorial down to the Vn memorial. It is unbelievable...and I'll be back there again this year strolling the mall soaking it all in, realizing there is nothing like this honoring the anti-war protesters of the 1960s. Here is a Marine Corp Chopper from last year...

http://inlinethumb34.webshots.com/43809/2544829330103673033S500x500Q85.jpg (http://news.webshots.com/photo/2544829330103673033aXIinA)

http://inlinethumb63.webshots.com/42622/2520373720103673033S500x500Q85.jpg (http://news.webshots.com/photo/2520373720103673033ByJdre)

http://inlinethumb50.webshots.com/42865/2298776730103673033S500x500Q85.jpg (http://news.webshots.com/photo/2298776730103673033dedLzy)

http://inlinethumb58.webshots.com/44281/2291526240103673033S500x500Q85.jpg (http://news.webshots.com/photo/2291526240103673033wkRuPg)

[Alfacentori]

I've never been to the states but when I do I will be visiting the Memorial in DC, looks like a moving place.

I've been privilaged enough to visit the Australian War Memorial though

Alfa

[armymom1228]

you said marines? p-)

http://gi112.photobucket.com/groups/n183/FPI8WK33K2/044.jpg

I stood there for at least 2 hours as the motorcycles rode by.. it was an amazing show.

I assume you saw the MIA memorial on the hill above the Memorial? and the Agent Orange Blanket? I have close freinds battling that now. :-(

here are some more photos.. youngsters won't remember these names but I bet there are some that do.
http://gi112.photobucket.com/groups/n183/FPI8WK33K2/202.jpg
http://gi112.photobucket.com/groups/n183/FPI8WK33K2/217.jpg

[Bro Jangles]

unfortunately ive never been to DC to see it, but i did drive to see the smaller travelling on that went around the county a couple years ago.

[Jacknola]

I knew Maya Lin's parents, and knew her mother pretty well, having studied under her for 4 years. I am fairly sure Maya would have learned artistic integrity from her parents. Her idea for a place of deep reflection on loss was, as I recall, meant to allow for a grieving that had been hard to come by for the veterans, the families, and the country. She never meant it as a primarily political statement, certainly not as a mark of shame. What the artsy left and what the angry right made of it, and the circus their inevitably knee-jerk conflict brought to the discussion is fortunately not visible in the finished product, which is a work of art and one of the most deeply moving memorial monuments anywhere.

Sir, pardon me but... I don’t give a rats about Maya Lin or her “art” or her creation that was designed as funeral architecture. I care even less about her parents or their “art integrity.” And we did not set out to build a "place to grieve" or "reflect on our battlefield sins" or whatever... nor did we commission such a memorial dedicated to such insulting and ignorantly moral condescention from stay-at-home academic Bauhaus art mullahs. Where did you get the idea that we vets, who raised the money and commissioned the project ,wanted "a place to grieve" or "deeply reflect?"

Please try to understand what we tried so hard to make clear to the Fine Arts Commission. The Memorial could be a simple wooden cross stuck in a corn field in Virginia and it would evoke the same reaction the current memorial does. What makes it a Memorial is the soldiers of Vietnam and their families and their flag.

Personally, I find your post patronizing in its insularity and priggishness. If you want “art” go to a darn museum. Art my …… And you can take your "knee jerk right" moral superiority attitude or whatever else to the museum with you and park it there permanently along with your seeming belief that the "art" and "art integrity" along with a gratuitous dose of condescension - "what they need is a place to grieve..." is what makes the monument so powerful.

Back in 1982, we all understood exactly what was going on... Maya Lin and the "art community" could care less about the Vietnam Vet, his issues with societal acceptance of his duty, his desire to be heroically, not disparagingly, remembered in a monument to his bravery and the sacrifice of his friends in a noble cause. She totally missed the point in her selfish and self absorbed gen X manner and in her ignorant comments about the desecration of her "art" when the flag pole was added. Just what the heck did she think she was designing... a modern day Walden Pond?

No, Maya Lin’s design is not what makes the Vietnam Memorial. It is not ART ... thus it is not the "art" or "art integrity" or "not primarily a political statement" or whatever... that makes the monument... it is a MEMORIAL, as in memory..., it is our memorial.

And we could care less about your problems with the process. The truth was a bunch of wild-eyed politically motivated leftest tried to foist an insulting and denigrating interpretation of Vietnam down the Veterans throats. If you think our reaction to that attempted coup was just the "angry right" you are both ill-informed and wrong.

I am exactly one of the same persons who objected to Maya Lin as a person... and still think she is foolish and self absorbed who 25 years later still has no idea what the purpose of that monument is. She chose to allow herself to be used as a front for the ultimate attack on Vietnam vets. Her design was made acceptable ONLY by the flag and statues, therfore the power of the monument lies not in her "art," but our sacrifice.

[AZZenny]

And you are welcome to your view, and it is very heart-felt and more personal than mine, but it is still not the only legitimate perspective.

I do care about art, because at its best it illuminates human emotions and expands them in ways we don't expect, and it takes us beyond the social or political statement of the moment. Some fairly crappy human beings have nevertheless made great art because at times they can communicate with something greater than themselves -- that's artistic integrity -- and it continues to blow people away long after their politics or religion or vices are forgotten.

Despite all the arguments over it, this memorial turned out to be one of the most emotionally wrenching war memorials in the world, certainly in the US. It moves people who have no direct relationship to Viet Nam to understand the very human cost of war, and it does it with serenity and enormous dignity. I think it will do that for hundreds of years after the last Viet Nam veteran has died.

If that's not worth **** to you, that's fine, but it is to others, including at least a few Vietnam Vets I've known. They love this memorial for the way it brings people to tears, and to their knees. They also don't mind giving a nod to the artist, knowing that a memorial like this is a really rare occurence.

And your statue and flag are fine, but without the monument, they wouldn't have a fraction the same universal impact.

[click]

I've been to the moving wall once, but was pretty young to know what it was

[armymom1228]

I forgot to mention that there is a virtual wall online..

http://www.virtualwall.org/

http://www.vietnamwall.org/museum.php

Ya know....for those who have nevr though of it this way.. .. and the names don't tell it all. Last year, while standing there.. in front of the panel that hold's Mike's name.. I saw a vet start to trace with his fingers names.. he said to me.."those men, do you know who they are? They all died in the same helo crash" He went on to descrive in vivid detail that day.. it seems he was the helo pilot that was/is still bashing himself for not dying with those guys, his buddies.. he survived.. having heard many such stories of survivial in my years of working as a psych nurse for the VA... there is not real way to console such a man.. just listen to his story.. offer what I could and tell him how much his service meant to me and this country.. oddly enough one of the names was Oscar Meyer III (yes that oscar meyer) There IS a story behind each name... occasionaly the the markings by a name change.. as they find and identify another MIA.

If anyone here gets to DC and does visit The Wall and Arlington.. you must visit the Womens Memorial at Arlington.. there is a whole space devoted to Viet Nam and the nurses who took care of our guys there..

[SpecOpsGrandChild]

Never bin there but I know I have a family member on it. never knew the men he died before my birth.
I'm sorry. RIP Dwight's relative.

[commanding]

I forgot to mention that there is a virtual wall online..

http://www.virtualwall.org/

http://www.vietnamwall.org/museum.php

Ya know....for those who have nevr though of it this way.. .. and the names don't tell it all. Last year, while standing there.. in front of the panel that hold's Mike's name.. I saw a vet start to trace with his fingers names.. he said to me.."those men, do you know who they are? They all died in the same helo crash" He went on to descrive in vivid detail that day.. it seems he was the helo pilot that was/is still bashing himself for not dying with those guys, his buddies.. he survived.. having heard many such stories of survivial in my years of working as a psych nurse for the VA... there is not real way to console such a man.. just listen to his story.. offer what I could and tell him how much his service meant to me and this country.. oddly enough one of the names was Oscar Meyer III (yes that oscar meyer) There IS a story behind each name... occasionaly the the markings by a name change.. as they find and identify another MIA.

If anyone here gets to DC and does visit The Wall and Arlington.. you must visit the Womens Memorial at Arlington.. there is a whole space devoted to Viet Nam and the nurses who took care of our guys there..

Thank you, for your service in the VA as a psych nurse. The VA is such a valuable service for vets. I salute you. I will send you a name on the wall, and it's location tonight I think...so you can touch his name for me. I already have a rubbing courtesy of another friend who was a ground pounder in Nam. Long story...

[Gunge]

Jack
i was hoping you would reply to azz
he dosen't get it either but you put it all out very clearly
well said and i thank you for that and your service to our Great Nation

i remember the battle over it from when i was in high school readig SOF magazine

still havent made my trip there but one day i will with my family and i know it will be emotional for all of us

thanks again

[Hollis]

Jack
i was hoping you would reply to azz
he dosen't get it either but you put it all out very clearly
well said and i thank you for that and your service to our Great Nation

i remember the battle over it from when i was in high school readig SOF magazine

still havent made my trip there but one day i will with my family and i know it will be emotional for all of us

thanks again

I like to post this link to show what we (RVN Vets) are up against.

http://www.25thaviation.org/johnkerry/id27.htm

The worse part was not the media, politicians and other Americans falling for the myths, haft truths and lies, in that there where many brothers (RVN Vets) who succumbed to them too. Vets from other Wars also fell into that trap too.

The Wall was done by RVN Vets for RVN Vets in a time when being a RVN Vet was to be a social pariah. It wasn't till the Gulf War that being a Vet suddenly became OK in the eyes of regular Americans again.

As you review that link, ask yourself how many of those myths do you believe in.

As a person begins to understand the dymanics of all of this, compare it to today's. The same tactics are being employed to dishonor, disgrace and shame the Men and Women who are currently serving. While we may never straighten out all the lies and half truths of the Viet-Nam war, I think it is more important to support the Men and Women who are currently serving from having the same done to them.

As Jacknola stated about the Wall, " monument to his bravery and the sacrifice of his friends in a noble cause"

Let us add to that statement that the Wall is also a remembrance at how a generation of Men and Women was treated ignobly by their own nation and fellow countryman, that this should never had happened and most importantly should never happen again.

[commanding]

Hollis, I would also point out, that it wasn't just vets who served in VN that were viewed as outcasts, and looked down on by some if not much of the general population, it was anyone wearing the uniform of the US military. I experienced a lot of disdain from civilians while in uniform, especially in California.

I don't know all the detailed history of how the VN (monument or memorial whichever is corrrect) was submitted to "design professionals", other than I have read it was a "blind" competition, and about 1400 or so entries.
Also from what I read, Maya L. was a 21 year old, student at Yale university studing architecture at the time she submitted her design. Nor do I know how the "design jury" was picked by the VN vets, that would select the winning entry.

Let me just say a couple of things...with complete respect to you, Jack and all vets who served in nam...
I have a professional degree in architecture myself, and have worked in the arch. field for 41 years. My brother (army vet) is also an architect, and my nephew, graduated in arch from Yale about 5 years ago. Yale is a VERY left leaning school. You have universities that are very LEFT leaning and some that are RIGHT leaning. I went to Texas Tech which was very conservative, bible belt, in nature.
During my studies, I met a fellow arch student named Michael Atkinson, who was the son of a local architect. Mike was/is extremely talented! The arch program at Tech was a 5 year program (took me 6) but Mike Atkinson, dropped out of school after about 3 years, joined the Marines and went to Vietnam. AFter he got out of service, he came back and finished his degree. Now Mike is a very famous artist in the US:
http://www.artusa.com/atkinson_prints.htm

my point being that there are architects, and artists, that are conservative, have served in the military, etc. But in my experience about 85 to 90% of them are left leaning, and have never contributed a thing to their country.
(23 years ago I joined three architect veterans, who formed a new architecture company, and we were all conservative, and vets..so we all got along great!)
ON the other hand, my nephew, who attended arch school at Yale, is EXTREMELY liberal, will not touch a gun, is a VEGAN, and is a poster child for the far left.
so...there is my experience, as far as views of what the "pool" of folks who were around to design and JUDGE the Vietnam monument.
Again, my views, lack the earned expertise, compared to the views of Hollis and Jack and others who were in vietnam, whereas I was just a soldier and never went there.

[Hollis]

Commanding, your right and it needs to be pointed out that all veterans of that period was shunned by society as a whole. IMHO, all veterans served their country, it is not about duty station.

Having been in-country, that is where my views come from, I can only speak from my experiences. It just was not a good time for those who served and those who were serving. Again, I think was is important is not to let it happen again. I have tremendous respect for the Men and Women who are currently serving and, let me add, for their families who support them.

[armymom1228]

ION the other hand, my nephew, who attended arch school at Yale, is EXTREMELY liberal, will not touch a gun, is a VEGAN, and is a poster child for the far left.
.

it is okay... take comfort in the fact that yours will be the first door he runs to for safety when, not if, the next terrorist attacks come.
Sheep always look to the wolves..

for the rest of you..this is one of the urls on my sig line on all outgoing emalis..
http://www.slideshare.net/RSC56/these-are-my-credentials-1196882914687974-2?src=related_normal&rel=193262

three of the quotes are my favorites.. something about prefering to go to hel with 7 studs than a bunch of wusse.... delta commander said that..
the comment about 'the true believer..." spoken to candidates at SFAS
and the one from tommy franks...
about anti war protesters..

OTOH...how do you guys explain away VVAW?

[Hollis]

OTOH...how do you guys explain away VVAW?


I posted a site, I would suggest reading it. It wasn't just people who stayed at home who believed that stuff. War asks good people to do things good people do not normally do. Then when that person gets home and all they hear is the lies and half truths, then add the natural guilt of war, self questioning and condemnations from Vets of other wars and ...... (all the other stuff), It creates a mess. No one wants to be a social pariah, so there is bitterness and anger. It needs to be focused and many vets also fell into the same trap as everyone else. If a person hears a lie often enough and from enough people they know and like, that person may just accept that lie to be true, even when they know from personal experiences that it is a lie.

Just say thank you to John Kerry and friends.

[armymom1228]

Commanding, your right and it needs to be pointed out that all veterans of that period was shunned by society as a whole. IMHO, all veterans served their country, it is not about duty station.

Having been in-country, that is where my views come from, I can only speak from my experiences. It just was not a good time for those who served and those who were serving. Again, I think was is important is not to let it happen again. I have tremendous respect for the Men and Women who are currently serving and, let me add, for their families who support them.

Hollis do you remember a movie called Coming Home? AT the time it was supposed to be an anti war movie.. of course it would have to be with what's her name and Voigt in it..but the odd thing was I never viewed it as that. It was about Vets and how they were treated when they got home. The last scenes were powerful.. Bob and Sally have a confrontation.. tim buckley's song, 'once I was a soldier' playing in the background. The early part of the movie was filmed AT the VA... those extras were real Vets. One scene was just the cameras rolling while real Vets were playing pool and talking. It was a powerful scene. I saw the movie again last summer..bought my own copy.. still feel it was not anti war.. but then I was not looking for that in it.. so much of the things that happened to the vets can still be seen today.

Lest any of you think times have changed.. don't think so.. Viet Vets still get the short end of the stick at the VA and the new Vets get a lot more consideration.. How many years did those guys have to go being told that "Viet Vet Syndrome'' was just in thier minds.. did not exist.. now they have a fancy name for it.. PSTD.. how many active duty had to pretend nothing was wrong, or risk thier careers.. MY brother did Viet Nam as a Marine.. got out, then went Army. His entire 30 yr career he hid is problems lest he be ruined for rank. My Tru, he still walks perimeter at night.. still has trouble sleeping in the dark.. lives in the woods.. avoids people. The VA has shafted him so bad, he won't go there.. won't get the help he needs.. he stays out of trouble by avoiding society..and so on...

Another movie about Vets is ''In Country'' with Bruce Willis..

[Jacknola]

And your statue and flag are fine, but without the monument, they wouldn't have a fraction the same universal impact.

zz, my last despairing comments are this. You have part of it right and have stated much in elegant language. But then... what is this about "your" flag, and "your" statue? If you are from a different country than the US, that is acceptable. If not, those incredibly obtuse statements are a window into a world of hubris and arrogance.

If that flag and statue were the only Vietnam Memorial, it would be as well viewed as the current entire memorial is today. Why? because it represents something so heroic, so powerful that it entirely overwhelms the symbol by itself. Comprehende? No?

Maya Lin’s wall was originally designed for a cemetery, funeral architecture. If you stuck that "wall" in a corn field without notation or inscription, it wouldn't even be noticed as "art." It is nothing... sir ...nothing other than a black retaining wall holding back a mound of dirt. Maya Lin’s wall, by itself, it has no redeeming virtues as a work of art. Therefore, it cannot be just the artistic design of the "wall" that renders power to the monument.

There is a huge difference between the “artist’s” world of professorial criticism, artsy back-biting, snide commentary, and shadow nuance critique... and the world of public monumental works intended to enlighten, inform, symbolize and memorialize heroic actions.

I suggest the next time you visit the Vietnam Memorial, perhaps you should think... er ... "deeply reflect" or perhaps "grieve" if you will ... about just who caused the horror of the killing fields of Cambodia, the murder or exile of millions from Vietnam, and who aided, abetted those that caused it.

The big finger points not at the veterans, but at the ilk of Maya Lin and her pals, buddies and cohorts. She chose to publicly denigrate the veterans and their cause.

She chose to insult and oppose the addition of any symbol that recognized what Vietnam was about.

She deserves no respect and no thanks for something as banal and meaningless as a black retaining wall. Because evidently, she and her artist shills, and perhaps you (?), really think that is all there is to the Vietnam Memorial.

[armymom1228]

I posted a site, I would suggest reading it. It wasn't just people who stayed at home who believed that stuff. War asks good people to do things good people do not normally do. Then when that person gets home and all they hear is the lies and half truths, then add the natural guilt of war, self questioning and condemnations from Vets of other wars and ...... (all the other stuff), It creates a mess. No one wants to be a social pariah, so there is bitterness and anger. It needs to be focused and many vets also fell into the same trap as everyone else. If a person hears a lie often enough and from enough people they know and like, that person may just accept that lie to be true, even when they know from personal experiences that it is a lie.

Just say thank you to John Kerry and friends.

still reading it... in small dose.... to consider and think on each bit..
interesting.. have it bookmarked in fact..
ya know, I think I Need to do some more research..
perhaps I did drink the koolaid.. :roll:
thanks for the link.. last night I was simply too tired to comprehend..
one of those too tired, but cannot sleep nights..

[IraGlacialis]

I am not going to get into whether the wall itself is an effective memorial or not. I wasn't around when it was made, and by this time, it is a staying fixture.
However, what got me is apparently how much of a fit Lin threw got when the statue was proposed. Her arguement seemed like a petty rant about asthetics and missed the point about the original purpose.
To Azzenny, I am suspecting that it is this pettiness that riles Jacknola up. And rightfully so.

And this is coming from a person who loves art and considers it to be a major facet of his life.
In fact, it is (usually leftist) activism and the like that causes me to have great disdain for today's "art and artists". Many are just a bunch of hipsters flocking in the same direction to an issue just because it is "in" and have little knowledge about the actual facets of it.

That being said, even though I don't have close relatives that have been KIA, the Vietnam Memorial is a top destination to go to when I get to go to DC.

[armymom1228]

No offense meant Sir...but until this thread. I had not idea, and did not care, WHO designed The Wall. I can state, from personal experience..
the impact it has on me.. I cannot walk down that walk without tears, or a sense of loss..not only for myself and a son who never knew his father..but for our nation as whole.. 58,000 is a lot of bodies ya know.. a lot.. and the families and freinds they left behind will always miss them..

What bothers me is the kids who come to DC and are on tours. I cannot count the times they text, they twitter and chat but they just don't get it... until they see a vet standing there silent, tears streaming down his face.. the hushed silence is immediate and obvious when they pass him by... at least there is a modicum of respect.. till they get past him and go back to text and twitter.. I truly don't think anyone prepares them for the various Memorials.

For what it is worth.. most colleges are left leaning.. its the nature of the beast it seems... U of Fla where I went definitely was not right wing in the early 1970's.



zz, my last despairing comments are this. You have part of it right and have stated much in elegant language. But then... what is this about "your" flag, and "your" statue? If you are from a different country than the US, that is acceptable. If not, those incredibly obtuse statements are a window into a world of hubris and arrogance.

If that flag and statue were the only Vietnam Memorial, it would be as well viewed as the current entire memorial is today. Why? because it represents something so heroic, so powerful that it entirely overwhelms the symbol by itself. Comprehende? No?

Maya Lin’s wall was originally designed for a cemetery, funeral architecture. If you stuck that "wall" in a corn field without notation or inscription, it wouldn't even be noticed as "art." It is nothing... sir ...nothing other than a black retaining wall holding back a mound of dirt. Maya Lin’s wall, by itself, it has no redeeming virtues as a work of art. Therefore, it cannot be just the artistic design of the "wall" that renders power to the monument.

There is a huge difference between the “artist’s” world of professorial criticism, artsy back-biting, snide commentary, and shadow nuance critique... and the world of public monumental works intended to enlighten, inform, symbolize and memorialize heroic actions.

I suggest the next time you visit the Vietnam Memorial, perhaps you should think... er ... "deeply reflect" or perhaps "grieve" if you will ... about just who caused the horror of the killing fields of Cambodia, the murder or exile of millions from Vietnam, and who aided, abetted those that caused it.

The big finger points not at the veterans, but at the ilk of Maya Lin and her pals, buddies and cohorts. She chose to publicly denigrate the veterans and their cause. She deserves no respect and no thanks for something as banal and meaningless as a black retaining wall. Because evidently, she and her artist shills, and perhaps you (?), really think that is all there is to the Vietnam Memorial.

[armymom1228]

Jack is there any link to the other submissions for the Memorial that did not get accepted? I am now curious..

[IraGlacialis]

What bothers me is the kids who come to DC and are on tours. I cannot count the times they text, they twitter and chat but they just don't get it... until they see a vet standing there silent, tears streaming down his face.. the hushed silence is immediate and obvious when they pass him by... at least there is a modicum of respect.. till they get past him and go back to text and twitter.. I truly don't think anyone prepares them for the various Memorials.Get someone detached enough, whether through time, distance, or relation, from an issue and the amount of apathy towards that issue begins to increase. Sad but time-honored fact.
My current privileged generation will rather text on our cell phones or watch reality TV rather than focus on the current conflict abroud.

[commanding]

For what it is worth.. most colleges are left leaning.. its the nature of the beast it seems... U of Fla where I went definitely was not right wing in the early 1970's.

There are a few that are more conservative...Texas A&M in college station texas, has a corp of cadets, who have served in every major war...their entire student body, especially in those days, was very conservative, and Texas Tech in Lubbock, ...where cowboys are real...is pretty darn conservative. I do not remember a single war protest there during my 6 years. West Texas is ultra conservative.

Texas Tech basketball game, the "cactus cuties"...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKCVS57j284

[AZZenny]

I said 'your flag and your statue' because you were proposing that as the true monument, and it seemed to me that is the only thing you are willing to recognize as your Vietnam Veteran's memorial.

That is your view, and it seems pretty clear that you personally dislike the Wall itself. I'm glad you are in the minority view on that -- sorry a 21-yr old kid's immature artistic temperament has gnawed at you all these years.



Maya Lin’s wall, by itself, it has no redeeming virtues as a work of art.


I disagree with you absolutely about the Wall, but it means something different to me than it does to you. We'll have to leave it at that.

[Hollis]

I said 'your flag and your statue' because you were proposing that as the true monument, and it seemed to me that is the only thing you are willing to recognize as your Vietnam Veteran's memorial.

That is your view, and it seems pretty clear that you personally dislike the Wall itself. I'm glad you are in the minority view on that -- sorry a 21-yr old kid's immature artistic temperament has gnawed at you all these years.



I disagree with you absolutely about the Wall, but it means something different to me than it does to you. We'll have to leave it at that.


Maybe stand down a bit. While you may have good intentions, I don't think you understand. I really don't want to see this thread end like many similar to this one has. One aspect of the Viet-Nam war was how people rotated in and out of country. It really created a individual war. Many people went over by themselves, assigned to units, and came home the same. We do have some common shared moments, but on arriving home most of us were just the odd ball among the clueless in the states. For about two decades or so, we had Hollywood, the Media, people who where never there telling us how we should feel, what we saw,what we did etc. We still have people who believe they are right telling us what we should feel.

There is a lot of bitterness and anger over all of this. Generally I do not discuss this war other people. It didn't take much time to realize the clueless where not only clueless but highly opinionated on their collected cluelessness. I know, the replies, "Oh man, that's BS, saying if your where there you don't know." Well it is true. Cluelessness plus arrogance knows no bounds.

I could give a rats ass what any non RVN Vets says about Viet-Nam. That, I can say goes for OUR memorial too. Maybe reflect on why we said it was OURS. Society never done us any favors. I don't expect them too and I don't want them too. What should have been done, should have been done back then. It never happened. For the RVN Vets and the families, Our Wall, Our Memorial is for us. I would prefer if the others, we just leave us alone and focus on what is important today, our Men and Women who are serving today.


I don't want to share my grief with any of you, I don't want to discuss or explain what we did with any of you, what I would ask, is that you leave me alone with your Opinions of a war you where never in.

If you really interesting and want to do something, Then today is opportunity to actually support the Men and Women and their families who is involved in serving today. I think if we all do that, then we all come out a head as winners.

[Soldat_Américain]

I know someone on the wall, not personally but someone from my hometown, my dad knew who he was, it was hard to go there with him. Partially because I wondered about myself and where I would be in the future, always wanted to serve in the Army and such. I'll go back myself, hopefully sometime some year at Christmas.

[armymom1228]

Maybe stand down a bit. While you may have good intentions, I don't think you understand. I really don't want to see this thread end like many similar to this one has. One aspect of the Viet-Nam war was how people rotated in and out of country. It really created a individual war. Many people went over by themselves, assigned to units, and came home the same. We do have some common shared moments, but on arriving home most of us were just the odd ball among the clueless in the states. For about two decades or so, we had Hollywood, the Media, people who where never there telling us how we should feel, what we saw,what we did etc. We still have people who believe they are right telling us what we should feel.

There is a lot of bitterness and anger over all of this. Generally I do not discuss this war other people. It didn't take much time to realize the clueless where not only clueless but highly opinionated on their collected cluelessness. I know, the replies, "Oh man, that's BS, saying if your where there you don't know." Well it is true. Cluelessness plus arrogance knows no bounds.

I could give a rats ass what any non RVN Vets says about Viet-Nam. That, I can say goes for OUR memorial too. Maybe reflect on why we said it was OURS. Society never done us any favors. I don't expect them too and I don't want them too. What should have been done, should have been done back then. It never happened. For the RVN Vets and the families, Our Wall, Our Memorial is for us. I would prefer if the others, we just leave us alone and focus on what is important today, our Men and Women who are serving today.


I don't want to share my grief with any of you, I don't want to discuss or explain what we did with any of you, what I would ask, is that you leave me alone with your Opinions of a war you where never in.

If you really interesting and want to do something, Then today is opportunity to actually support the Men and Women and their families who is involved in serving today. I think if we all do that, then we all come out a head as winners.

x2 on this comment. Hollis thank you..

I want to add.. we might not agree with what someone said.. but remember our founding fathers granted that right to all of us to say things and do things that some might disagree with. In other countries that would get them jailed or dead.. there are those that stand ready to defend all our rights with thier lives.. some already have.. lost thier lives in defense of our freedom and way of life that is..
to those who have served, currently serve, and will serve in the future I tip my virtual hat and say thank you for keeping the wind I sail in free. :hug:
AM.

[Elfstone44]

I made my first contribution to the Wall early, perhaps as early as 1979 when Jan Scruggs and company began to bandy the idea about. I continued to contribute for the next four years,$10 here, $25 there...a lot of money at the time; I was living in Washington DC pretty close to the bone. I was there with Jacknola in that raccaous hearing room where the Washington Fine Arts committee led by that quintessential preppy J. Carter Brown (now deceased) held a series of jam packed emotional hearings on the Wall - it was 13 Oct 1982...the critical day for the decision on statue and flag..they day the VNM would be ours or "theirs." Jacknola testified at that hearing. I was there!

If you could listen to the Veterans at that time, powerful speech after powerful emotional speech, spitting words out, the room filled with big angry men, it would remove once and for all any idea that they were enthralled with Maya Lin's design. Listening to those men, consistently, over and over again, stating their fear that Maya Lin's design was a covert paean to Jane Fonda and her ilk which would sully the memory of these men who gave all for a cause, would have brought home the bleeding raw wound that Vietnam was for them.

Cambodia had degenerated into Genocide; Vietnam into the poorest country of the world with the most oppressive government; Laos into the depths of Vietnamese occupation. And still, still the American media piled it on...denegrating the cause, sneering at the soldiers; It WAS a culture war; the concerns of the Veterans about Maya Lin's design for a memorial, the one we fought for, paid for and dedicated to men who tried, possibly becoming a magnet for the very people we fought against both at home and abroad, were very very real.

Over furious opposition, only rivaled by the opposition to a WWII memorial in WDC, it was approved, but Brown moved the Flagpole from the Apex of the V to the place near to the Lincoln Memorial. (As an example of the crap we put up with, "Washington Post" proposed a design of a woman, supposedly a paragon of Libery, hiding her head in a hood for grief...or was it "shame?")

In November 1982 the "International Herald Tribune" published a condescending series of articles on the dedication of the Wall ending with a headline on 23 November 1982, "Honor the Vet, Not the War," written by (predictably) Stanley Karnow. It was everything Jacknola talked about above and more.

I was in Africa at the time and wrote a response to IHT "Letters to the Editor" which in edited form was published on 24 December 1982 in "Letters to the Editor." Here it is, I can post the scan; the sentiments remain valid:

....."Those of us who fought in Vietnam contributed to the memorial for several reasons. Of course it was to be a symbol, a final public recognition of and thanks to those living and dead who fought for an honorable and noble cause. For very real reasons the memorial was not built on the Canadian border or in Sweden. It certainly was not intended to honor those who failed to do their duty.

....."However, some veterans hoped that the memorial would become more than a symbol. Some have come to believe that they cannot complete the Vietnam circle - get rid of the bitterness, bury the ghosts - without widespread public understanding of the moral reasons for their sacrifices in Southeast Asia. They do not want a condescending pat on the head saying in effect, 'Good job boys, even though you were stupid, naive and murderous and died for nothing.' They want an acceptance as just of the cause for which they fought.

....."With 3 million skulls piled up by the so-called Socialist liberators in Cambodia, 2 million South Vietnamese herded into prison camps; 3 million others forced to flee in small boats and a million dead in the process; a ruined economy rapidly sinking to the level of the poorest Third World states; North Vietnamese occupyiing armies still in two neighboring countries; all hope of freedom snuffed out in the South - with all that and more, it is interesting that Stanley Karnow can still call the cause for which we fought 'unjust.' "

My final sentence was edited out: "Slink back into the slime from which you came Mr. Karnow, and leave our Memorial, the one we built to men who tried, alone." THE ONE WE BUILT TO MEN WHO TRIED is the operative phrase. Lesson? Maya Lin did not build that memorial. It is not hers...it is ours. We built it...not her.

I still have the official programs from both the November 1982 dedication of the Wall and the November 1984 dedication of the statues and flagpole. I may scan them cover to cover and post them here as a historical record.

In addition, I had to go back to Africa in late October 1982, a couple of weeks before the dedication of the Wall itself. My wife attended in my stead. She wrote a beautiful 8 page letter on the dedication events of November 1982 to me in French. I translated it and read it (translated) to a marine vet in Africa who broke down hearing it. I may try to post that....she is adamant that it was private corresponence but we'll see if I can get away with it...it is a historical document now and the rare one from an observer which actually gets into the heads of the participants.

In any event...make no mistake...That memorial was conceived and dedicated to us, to we veterans, not to the rest of the anti-war culture war crowd, in the midst of a cultural war which is difficult to fathom 25 years later. But the issues which led to its creation are still current today and will be current as long as the Vietnam generation is alive. Read Jacknola's posts and try to understand.

[Jacknola]

“…but it means something different to me than it does to you. We'll have to leave it at that.”

Yeah azz, and I think we all now have a clear idea just “what it means to you.” It starts with “illegal war, hey-hey-LBJ, Hell-no-I-won’t-go," and ends with “Amerika, baby killers, and Nazis." With every post your attitude toward us veterans and our memorial becomes more evident.

“…sorry a 21-yr old kid's immature artistic temperament has gnawed at you all these years.”

I knew a LOT of “21-yr old kids,” some of whom had an artistic temperament. Unfortunately, many of those 21-yr old kids I knew are listed on that wall. But their temperament generally did not include continuous, egregious public insults and blind attempts to hijack and roll the patron. She should have been spanked a lot more when growing up.

Yes it "gnaws" at me. The whole attitude of her in-crowd establishment gnaws at me. Maya Lin has never mea culpa or apologized for her absolutely horrible display, statements or attitude. On the contrary, she has made a career out of our monument while continuing to belittle us, the veterans, as if we were a bunch of yahoo art-ignoramous rubes. Her testimony and that of the other art-mullahs is all on the record. Re-reading it now just confirms what it was… a continuous stream of invective and hate for the veteran.

She and her art-elders may never ever admit to their role in that holocaust in S. E. Asia. But I’ll be damned if a single person will publically re-interpret the meaning of that Monument of OURS to fit your personal political belief … without a challenge.

Well, guess what... that is over, and we won, we got our changes, we made the memorial a monument to ALL Vietnam vets, instead of a funeral pyre for only those who were killed, and a wailing wall for the anti-military… which is what the conventional art establishment tried to force on us….

azz, you apparently cannot make a post that doesn’t expose your attitudes toward the Vietnam veterans. You’ve said your piece. Good for you.

PS: And about art, if you somehow believe I have no understanding of "art," feel free to look at the pictures of my woven rug collection... its on line, and you can look for free without gettin slapped in the face with a political agenda. Clicking "slideshow" is one way to view.

http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/563905792GTCQgG

[armymom1228]

As I have stated before I came late to the dance... and had no idea who the heck this Maya lin person was or is.. and to be honest still dont care..but it intrigued me enough to wiki her and follow a few links.. this is a decent article.. and it shows, sorta, what a petty individual she is.. otoh...here though put into why the wall is black is pretty interesting..
That stuff about being discrimminated because she was Asian.. in my world we say, that dog don't hunt.


When people started to realize that there was heated and at times ugly controversy over the design, and the memorial project was in danger of failing, the Memorial Fund directors decided to compromise: they added a statue and a flag to the memorial; however, Lin was not informed of the addition to her artwork. The statue would be a considerable distance away from Maya Lin's walls placed so that the integrity of her design would remain unchanged. Even so, Maya Lin became angry when she heard about the compromise and made her feelings known. She claimed the vets were "militaristic," and accused them of treating her like a child. She had been ignored on a matter that affected her design, and some believed that placing the statues by the memorial was like "drawing mustaches on other people's portraits."
petty and childish behavior on her part... she should have been honored that her art was even chosen period...



Many critics believed that the wall's design lacked proper symbolism toward the war that was fought. In retrospect however, Lin's monument evoked many emotions for those who have visited the wall. In an excerpt from Howe, he explains his visit to the wall:

The great black-granite chevron carved into the earth has 247-foot-long wings that rise from ground level at each end to ten feet at the apex, and as we slowly walked down the slope and into the memorial, we separately scanned the names of American men and women killed in the war. We weren't searching for anyone in particular, just reading a name here, another there, trying to comprehend the scope of human loss. Then, reflected together in the high sheen of the stone panels, we saw each other, and our tears began. (Howe 91)
The slight subtleties that Lin has instilled in the wall make the trip down the sidewalk an emotional one. As you start to walk along the path, the wall starts as a mere stretch of black granite gravitating near your feet. Slowly, it starts to lurch above you. It's as though a tidal wave has come up above and is about to sweep over your small figure, but you keep walking, reading the names etched into the granite. Eventually, the wall gets to 10 feet high, and you are nothing in its presence. Your heart beats faster and faster as you continue to saunter past your reflection in the wall. Spread out horizontally (in contrast to the verticality of the Washington Monument to the east and the Lincoln memorial to the west), every inch and every name of the memorial is within grasp. The two 247-foot walls of the monument expand laterally, hugging close to the earth, depending on the landscape for support as much as they mark it as a site for human suffering and reconciliation. Finally, the wall relents, and it gathers at your feet once again. Never have you experienced emotion like this.
Critics argue that having a memorial in all black, such as Lin's, suggests a morbid tone, and should be redone in white. People call the wall a "black gash of shame" and say it is insulting to the memory of those who had died. They wanted a traditional white marble sculpture featuring figures of soldiers. Lin's written response to critics: "The memorial is black because white south-facing stone would blind its viewers with reflected sunlight" (Anderson 45). Lin put a lot of thought into why the wall should be black. When you stand in front of the black granite, you are able to see your reflection, as though it were a mirror. This alone stands as symbolism for the soldiers' souls captured within the walls' essence. It is as though you are staring at the men and women who fought for America. The reflectiveness that allows you to see your own face slightly blended into the names engraved into the granite is a very moving experience. While writing about his personal trip to the Wall, a man named Broyles described the actual event of coming face to face with the Wall for his Newsweek readers:

It was as if a common emotion held back in so many private corners was all at once coming out into the sunlight. I cried too, more than once…As I stood in front of the polished granite I saw the names, but I also saw my own reflection. It fell across the names like a ghost. "Why me, lord?" we asked ourselves in Vietnam. It was a question that came back as I stood there: "why them?" (Broyles 82)
The reaction Broyles held toward the reflective manner of the wall was common. However, some people were not able to handle it as well. An article in Time Magazine describes one veteran's reaction: "He stood back, saluted, saw his reflection in the polished black stone, then let out a kind of agonized whimper before two buddies led him away." (Scruggs 2) Many people had similar responses toward the wall and because of this, creates a bond between an inanimate object and a human being. When asked what inspired her to make such an emotional memorial, Maya Lin said, "I though about what death is, what a loss is. A sharp pain that lessens with time, but can never quite heal over. A scar. The idea occurred to me there on the site. Take a knife and cut open the earth, and with time the grass would heal it. As if you cut open the rock and polished it." (Matthews 5)
Another controversial issue behind Lin's design was the way names were listed on the wall. People felt as though the names should be listed alphabetically so that it would be easier to find the name of a loved one; however, Lin was very adamant in listing the names chronologically, in the order they died. If the names were set up alphabetically on the wall it would hinder the overall effect it has on the visitors. Hypothetically speaking, if you were to have 90 Smiths who died in Vietnam, the meaning of his death would be lost if you were to look at a wall with 90 Smiths in a row. When taking a step back and seeing that the deaths are listed chronologically, it is as though you are a part of that history. Upon entering her design to the VVMF, Maya Lin submitted this quote:

The Memorial is composed not as an unchanging monument, but as a moving composition to be understood as we move into and out of it. The passage itself is gradual; the descent to the origin slow, but it is at the origin that the Memorial is to be fully understood. At the intersection of these walls, on the right side, is carved the date of the first death. It is followed by the names of those who died in the war, in chronological order. These names continue on this wall appearing to recede into the earth at the wall's end. The names resume on the left wall as the wall emerges from the earth, continuing back to the origin where the date of the last death is carved. (Stender par. 5)


http://www.jackmagazine.com/issue9/essayksands.html

[commanding]

Well that Maya L. person, to me, is just a historical footnote. As a person myself who has worked in the field of architecture for 41 yrs, I can tell you most archs. have a way over inflated view of themselves. Best thing to do is completely, totally ignore M.L.
Appreciate the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall for what it is, as Jack said, a monument to ALL vietnam vets.


all that being said....this thread can fade into the mist if you want. I hope it was enlightening for you, as it was for me. Also I hope there were no ill feelings raised by anything.

[Elfstone44]

Commanding, Let me post the programs first. I'll do it this weekend. There is a very good article, for instance, by Jan Scruggs on the judging process, etc. Its worthwhile to read.

[commanding]

Commanding, Let me post the programs first. I'll do it this weekend. There is a very good article, for instance, by Jan Scruggs on the judging process, etc. Its worthwhile to read.

Very good sir. Will do.

[California Joe]

I'm old enough to remember the controversy. I remember wondering WTF they were thinking when they picked that design. I'm partial to figurative sculpture myself. I thought the inclusion of the Hart sculpture was a brilliant idea. Look up his work on the National Cathedral...

Maya Lins reaction to the addition of the sculpture seems to be that of a spoiled child, an insulated "art student" whose work is so perfect that it cannot be compromised in any way shape or form. :roll: I've been to art school, trust me, that self important attitude is rampant. It has less to do with liberal political leanings than it does with a belief that they are the next Picasso or Rodin...It's an attitude that doesn't rely on having to create something that a client will pay for, because it's "art".

If the Vets like Elfstone and Jack, whom were instrumental in the creation of the Memorial in the first place, were not pleased with the design it should have been sh*tcanned. Period. The fact that they had to fight for the recognition in the first place is a tribute to them and the people that made it happen.

However, I think that the Memorial has taken on a life of it's own. It is probably the most recognizable memorial in the entire country. The subsequent generations of visitors to the Wall don't know much of the controversy. They seem to take it at face value. It simply has an emotional impact. It drives home the sacrifice that was made. It is very powerful, not as a grave marker or an anti war statement. But as a place of honor for all of the brave men that fought that war.

If the original idea of the design was to denigrate their service in an "unpopular" war I'd say it failed miserably.

I have many good friends that served there and I thank you for your service.

[Rakkasans]

Jacknola,

Go straight to the "right of the line" brother. Thanks for being there to help liberate the Memorial...

[Jacknola]

This cartoon was in the Baton Rouge Advocate paper in November, 1982. It is so on the mark, and on the side of the veterans, making a little fun at the seriousness of the artist-bureaucratic establishment. Note Ms. Lin standing with “designer” folder on top of a case of Cs amid a clutch of bureaucratic artists. Actually, this wouldn't be a bad memorial.

http://inlinethumb42.webshots.com/41897/2679239600103673033S600x600Q85.jpg (http://news.webshots.com/photo/2679239600103673033iqUVmX)

Of all the issues related to Vietnam, this fight over OUR monument was the defining moment of the whole lousy 20 years from 1970 to 1990. The monument's importance to us veterans cannot be over estimated. All of our issues came directly to the surface epitimized in the fight over the focus of the monument. Those issues are so important and core to us that there can be no compromise with the antis. Make no mistake about it, our insistance that the memorial contain a heroic element for the living vets is what makes the monument so powerful.. in the opinion of a great many people.

I would have perferred the flag and statue in the apex of the wall, but...it's nice where it is. Note that when a picture is taken of a vet at the memorial, it is usually in front of the statue. The wall is like a church... you don't take pictures there.

This site (below) has a remarkable and complete accounting of the entire series of events in capsule form with links to the documents from the mid-70s into the 90s. It is definitive on all sides and worth the time to read through. Reading it, I got all fired up...again... just at the statements, editorials, etc....and I was there for a lot of that history.

http://digital.lib.lehigh.edu/trial/vietnam/about/

The definitive essay from my point of view was Tom Wolfe's article in the Washington Post. I hope to find my copy and if I do, I'll post it here. You cannot find a more lucid explanation of the arcane world of bauhaus lilliputan art world or the controversy over our monument.

As a footnote, a number of political paths were launched in the Vietnam Memorial controversy. H. Ross Perot was publically involved high profile, for the first time. James Webb later became a US Senator... and I cannot quite understand what has happened to him. I loved almost all of his books.

[armymom1228]

So I ran down to DC today.

First photo is for commanding.. the rest of the wall today.

There was a school group who's project was to find a soldier with thier
last name.. make a rubbing take that name and research who they were and what they did in Viet Nam.

I met a young man, Navy,today talked to his mom and shook his hand
thanked him for serving.. He looked at his mom and said, "see this is wHY I would not wear my uniform today". His mom had wanted him to wear his uniform so she could take photos of him at the various memorials.. the kid just wanted to go and enjoy himself.

I was priviledged to meet some Viet Vets from South Texas.. they were in town to lobby for a new VA for thier area.. Anyone know where I can post the plea and the house/senate bills for Vets to write thier congressmen/senators to ask for them to vote for these bills?

The final photo is not The Wall but the park nearby.. a cherry tree. I thought it had a nice form. After I got home and uploaded I noticed in the upper left the Robert E Lee house in the background.. that was not planned but a nice touch. The cherry trees are lovely.. am off again monday so I might head back down.. not to the wall but for the cherry trees..
enjoy.
AM

[Fallap]

I was in NYC 1½ year ago, I wanted to go to DC so much to see the Vietnam War memorial, but my dad refused cause we only had 5 days in NYC :(

[Jacknola]

Here is the text of the most amazing article describing the Vietnam vet, his attitude, his treatment by society and it’s effects, and our attempt to expunge it all with a memorial to our commitment, heroism and the sacrifice of our friends and comrades in a noble cause.

It also details the attempt of the “Art Establishment” egged on by the vindictive nature of the leftist demonstrator allies of the North Vietnamese to deny us that memorial, and to substitute one that memorialized the correctness of their dereliction and commitment to an evil cause.

I scan it from a copy I’ve kept all these years. Unfortunately, the first few pages were impossible to read in the scan, so I retyped them. Following these first typed pages will be pictures of the scans… a difficult read because of the bad copy… BUT TOTALLY WORTH THE TIME for anyone wanting to understand.

Tom Wolfe is the finest writer of the 2nd half 20th C.


Commentary_ ___________________The Washington Post, ________Wednesday, October 13, 1982

Art Disputes War: The Battle of the Vietnam Memorial

How the Mullahs of Modernism caused a Stir


By Tom Wolfe, Special to the Washington Post


This is the story of art experts and the Vietnam veterans – and how the veterans asked for a war memorial and wound up with an enormous pit they now refer to as a “tribute to Jane Fonda.” In all likelihood, the Tribute to Jane Fonda, which [is next to ] the Lincoln Memorial will be dedicated as a National Monument on Nov. 11 and that will be that.

The facts in this curious case are as follows. The idea of a memorial was dreamed up by a small group of veterans living in the Washington area. One of them was Tom Carhart, a graduate of West Point, class of 1966. Back in November of 1965Carhart had become a legend in His Own Time, as the saying went, by leading a commando raid in which he and some brother cadets stole the Naval Academy’s pet goat on the eve of the Army-Navy football game. So much for the high jinks.

After that, life turned grisly for Carhart and his brethren of the class of 1966. One of every 19 members of the class was killed I combat in Vietnam. One of every six was either killed or wounded. Carhart himself was wounded twice.

Another of the little group of veterans was Jan Scruggs. Scruggs was from a working class family in Bowie Md., and went into the Army infantry straight out of high school. After months of constant combat in the bush in Vietnam, Scruggs was severely wounded and sent back to the United States.

Carhart and Scruggs were typical of the two groups who did the fighting for the United States in Vietnam: the professional military and the proles. The sons of the merchant and managerial classes in America sat this one out, in college, graduate school, Canada and Sweden. Of the 1,203 members of the Harvard class of 1960, for example, 26 served in Vietnam and none of them got a scratch.

The tension between the young men who fought in Vietnam and those who didn’t was one of those themes of a highly praised novel of the war, “Fields of Fire,” b y the man who was probably the best known of the group, James Webb. Webb was a Naval Academy graduate who has lead a platoon of marines in Vietnam and been awarded the Navy Cross, the Silver Star, two Bronze Stars and two Purple Hearts – practically every medal for bravery short of the Medal of Honor. All of them , even those who no longer speak to each other, seem to look back upon the group’s early meetings fondly. The meetings managed to bring alive two things that only men who had actually been through combat in Vietnam could understand. One was the exhilarating. The other was so perverse it was hard to deal with.

Both had to do with the fact that combat in Vietnam was a sever a test f manhood as any American warriors had ever been through. Twenty-four percent of all marines sent into combat in Vietnam were killed or wounded. It was the worst casualty rate in the history of the corps. Such were the statistics; the Army and Marine veterans themselves had seen the most riveting sort of graph our in the field. Periodically there would be ceremonial company roll calls. Those killed in action were represented by rifles with the bayonets stuck in the ground and the stocks up in the air with helmets up on top of them. To see half a company replaced by these ghastly dummies was nothing unusual.

Yet for the most part morale remained unbroken. Under the incessant threat of death, men formed especially close bonds of comradeship. The stories of self-sacrifice rivaled those of far more popular wars. Young men who passed Vietnam’s horrifying tests of manly honor felt that they were part of a special, even elite, brotherhood, although the use of any such terms would have been taboo.

That was why they found their reception in the United States after the war so perverse. The antiwar feelings back home and the antiwar movement, as a political development, were the least of it. The perverse part was something far more subtle.

In other American wars, such as the first and second World Wars, a big index finger, Uncle Sam’s, so to speak, had pointed at all young men of the proper age who had not served in the armed forces. It was an accusing finger. He who did not serve had to come up with an explanation, for his family, his pals, his neighbors, and usually, himself. The amazing thing about the antiwar movement was not that it had aided the enemy – which it had – but that it had managed to swing the big finger 180 degrees in the other direction. On the campuses the New Left had succeeded in changing the great accusing question to “You there, why did you serve?”

When Webb went across the country in 1979 on a promotion tour for “Fields of Fire,” he kept having the same astonishing confrontation. Some perfectly well-intentioned and probably apolitical young man or woman would say; “You’ve written a novel. You’re obviously an intelligent and sensitive man. So why on earth did you let them send you to
Vietnam?”

And there you had it! They had done it! They were the best and the brightest,, all right, these sons of the doctors and the lawyers and the CEOs and investment counselors who had dug in back there on the campuses during Vietnam! They were clever and resourceful, just as they had been reared and educated to be! They had not only been smart enough to duct the threat of death in combat – they had also managed to shift the onus onto those who fought. Never mind Ho Chi Minh and socialism and napalmed babies and the rest of it. The unspeakable and inconfessible goal of the New Left on the campuses had been to transform the shame of the fearful into the guilt of the courageous. And they had won their war! Such was the secret triumph of Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden, Jerry Rubin, William Sloane Coffin and the rest!

Most veterans who wanted a Vietnam war memorial entertained no hopes of refighting that battle. But they did want to remove the stigma from the men who, aw they saw it, had served the3ir country honorably. They kept talking about a memorial “to honor and recognize those who served in Vietnam”; and, indeed that phrase was written into the congressional mandate authorizing the veterans to erect the memorial on a choice stretch of Capital park land between the Lincoln Memorial and the Washington Monument.

Most of them, if the truth be known, had only a passing interest in “remembering the dead.” They wanted to remove the big accusing index finger from those who had returned from Vietnam and were living in its shadow.

They had in mind a statue like the Iwo Jima Memorial of the second World War or the Grand Army Plaza memorial of the Civil. War. Carhart himself would eventually enter the competition for the memorial, even though he had never done a work of art before in his life. He came up with a clay model of an Army officer in jungle fatigues lifting up a wounded enlisted man toward heaven. It was an amateurish piece of work but its approach represented what most of the group probably expected;” a realistic statue dramatizing the anguish and intimate bonds of the men who fought against horrifying odds in the bush in Vietnam – something that would announce, symbolically, that the accusing finger was no longer pointed perversely toward them.

---------------------

The veterans could have gotten any kind of sculpture they wanted – since they paid for the memorial with money they raised by themselves – had they not coe up with the bright idea of turning the choice over to a jury of art experts. But that they did. They approached a Washington Landscape architect named Paul Sprelregen, whose specialty was arranging architectural competitions.

Sprelregen set up a nationwide competition, open to any American and presented the veterans with a pool of nearly 30 eminences of the art world, from which they picked eight jurors: landscape architects Hideo Sasaki and Garrett Eckbo; architects Harry Weese and Pietro Belluschi; sculptors Constantino cNivola , James Rosati and Richard Hunt; and Grady Clay, editor of the magazine Landscape Architecture. The veterans were delighted. Over their long and distinguished careers these men had won enough gold medals to light up a hallway. Certainly they were mature. Their average age was 65. The were the elder statesmen of their world.

The catch was that the veterans didn’t have the faintest notion of what . . . their world . . . was like. It turned out to be a world as bizarre and totally removed fro the rest f American life as anything any soldier had ever run into in Vietnam.

Aside from Hunt, who was only 45, the judges of the Vietnam memorial competition had been young men,
students in most cases, when Europe and modernism had swept through the arts in America in the 1930s and 1940s. The look of modernism is familiar to anyone with the slightest interest in contemporary art: The abstract sculpture, the two dimensional and usually abstract paintings, the so-called glass-box buildings with flat roofs, sheer facades, and no decoration. Nor so well known is the peculiar mental atmosphere that arrived with the glass boxes and the abstract art.

At the major universities, such as Harvard, modernism was regarded not as a style but as the millennium. The result was a Savonarola – or Red Guard-style cultural revolution. Students drew up manifestoes and refused any longer to undertake such laborious and superannuated tasks as China-wash renderings of classical ...

Note: go to scans, next.

http://inlinethumb17.webshots.com/43984/2503625690103673033S600x600Q85.jpg (http://news.webshots.com/photo/2503625690103673033LfyYbJ)
http://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/35626/2008533920103673033S600x600Q85.jpg (http://news.webshots.com/photo/2008533920103673033dRVOaC)

http://inlinethumb47.webshots.com/38958/2094551970103673033S600x600Q85.jpg (http://news.webshots.com/photo/2094551970103673033eBNJne)
http://inlinethumb32.webshots.com/41823/2770284320103673033S600x600Q85.jpg (http://news.webshots.com/photo/2770284320103673033gvwUdo)

http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/35307/2217188920103673033S600x600Q85.jpg (http://news.webshots.com/photo/2217188920103673033DOgCxr)
http://inlinethumb37.webshots.com/27428/2654155430103673033S600x600Q85.jpg (http://news.webshots.com/photo/2654155430103673033rqOgOP)




I hope to perhaps edit this, replacing the scans with better quality, or complete the retyping. Apparently this particular essay cannot be found of the web. But it so impressed me 25 year ago, with its spot-on identification of the cause of the alianation of us Vietnam Viets that I carried a photo copy with me all these years. I hope if brings some understand and relief to other Vietnam brothers as it did for me. AND... it will explain why we were so highly upset about Maya Lin, her lefty handlers and dodging establishment. She has never even apoligized for her attitude. I guess she thinks it is all about her. Typical.

[TheKiwi]

Jacknola, thank you very much for posting that article (not to mention going to the effort of re-typing the unscannible bits). It made for a great read and I think that it summed up the mood of the times rather well.

Not related to the above, but I did go to the memorial when I visited Washington DC. It was very moving. Obviously I didn't know anyone on the memorial, but my uncle served in Vietnam with the kiwi artillery group. He was excluded from my extreme left-wing part of the family for about 25 years afterwards.

[armymom1228]

Jacknola, thank you very much for posting that article (not to mention going to the effort of re-typing the unscannible bits). It made for a great read and I think that it summed up the mood of the times rather well.

Not related to the above, but I did go to the memorial when I visited Washington DC. It was very moving. Obviously I didn't know anyone on the memorial, but my uncle served in Vietnam with the kiwi artillery group. He was excluded from my extreme left-wing part of the family for about 25 years afterwards.

x2 on that....Thank you...

[ferguson]

Lotta emotional stuff here-some factual, some just emotional.

I got involved in the memorial when they announced they were going to have one.
Lots of fund raising and informational stuff all around the country.

VN vets were rising above the media cloud that had affected a few of us. The event was called the National Salute to the Vietnam Veteran and started aoff a lot of good stuff.
While there were some rocky times, overall the demonization of VN vets was over rated and is carried on today by the few who continue to view themselves as some kind of "victims."

There were a number of designs submited and the committee chose Maya Lin's.-Like it or not.

I was there for the week long festivities in '82 and saw lots of interesting stuff.
I also saw some former team mates and joned the SFA at the local chapter reception suite.

Many guys did not like the design.
Some Marines appropriated a US and a MIA/POW flag and stood guard at the apex the whole week, relieved by volunteers.

"Black Ditch Wall of Shame, and Jane Fonda's gash" were terms bandied about.
There was nothing to honor the living. Only the dead and missing.
A pettition was a circulated to "get this filled in and a real memorial built."

Two years later the statue and flag were addded to the park.
This balanced the situation and most of us were placated.
The wall by itself was just too somber, too depressing.
Ms Lin did remark they were drawing mustaches on other peoples' art. She was somewhat correct, but it needed doing.
There is no reason to cast despersion on her.

I have been back for all the major events and some in between.

My only objection is that so many old people have started to show up.

While their service was important and exceptional I object to the standing womens memorial.
It shows only nurses and in a totally fantasmical situation that never happened.

Apparently they are field medics and are cradling a wounded GI waiting for a dustoff-Neva hoppened GI.-

I believe the statue is inappropriate for what it is.
There is a large woman veteran memorial by Arlington and it belongs there.
Only not that scene.

I attended these events all over the country for years and saw a lot of emotion and politics influence thinking.
Not all of it good.

I never made Rolling Thunder, but plan to this year.

[LZ NAM]

I took this last Memorial Day weekend.. the gentleman is a former Marine. He took his shirt off for his lady to take a photo and was unable to redress for at least 30 minutes.. as so many Vets _had to_ get thier own photo
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/kosmikbubbles/083.jpg

this batch was taken Memorial Day 2007
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/kosmikbubbles/PictureorVideo389.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/kosmikbubbles/PictureorVideo387.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/kosmikbubbles/PictureorVideo382.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/kosmikbubbles/PictureorVideo385.jpg

ArmyMom, you wouldn't happen to know who left that shirt in the picture frame...We Were The Best America Had by chance. That's our shirt (LZ NAM) and we're glad to see it was left at the wall.

Thanks for sharing that picture!

[armymom1228]

Hi LZ, glad you liked the photos.. To answer your question, no sir, I don't know who left that Tshirt.. first it as 3 Memorial Days back. I had a LOT More photos but they were on my old laptop. I try my best to get photos of every Memorial Day I am in DC.. the past three for sure. I take shots of the wall and what is left there because it will never be that way again.. 2007 saw an amazing amount of memorabilia left.. 2008 not so much. this past MD was so-so...

Here is a link to my picasa albums... IF you click "my photos" it should take you to my three albums.. the titles are self explanatory..

hope all of you enjoy the photos.. I must apologize for being so remiss... life and work have interferred a great deal with my time online.
AM

[Bro Jangles]

yo AM long time no see.

[LZ NAM]

Hi LZ, glad you liked the photos.. To answer your question, no sir, I don't know who left that Tshirt.. first it as 3 Memorial Days back. I had a LOT More photos but they were on my old laptop. I try my best to get photos of every Memorial Day I am in DC.. the past three for sure. I take shots of the wall and what is left there because it will never be that way again.. 2007 saw an amazing amount of memorabilia left.. 2008 not so much. this past MD was so-so...

Here is a link to my picasa albums... IF you click "my photos" it should take you to my three albums.. the titles are self explanatory..

hope all of you enjoy the photos.. I must apologize for being so remiss... life and work have interferred a great deal with my time online.
AM

Simply great photo's. My first visit to the "Wall" was back in '82 for the dedication and have made several trips since...visiting the "Wall" several years ago with my old chopper unit for our DC reunion was the most emotional of all...thanks for sharing.

[ferguson]

2007 was the 25th anniversary.

Probably the last big event or close to it.

Everybody is showing some age as we are mostly in our 60s now.

I have a lot of pics from that event and lots more from '82.

I will try and post them.

I have shots of a 173rd abn guy placing the 1st wreath on the statue after it was dedicated.

I remember a lady asking why they leave all that stuff-all she got was some funny looks.

[armymom1228]

Everybody is showing some age as we are mostly in our 60s now.

.

Ferg...that is the hardest part for me to wrap my brain around... weren't we all going to live forever?

I remember that commercial for the last incarnation of Woodstock. First part was all young 'flower children' the next part was them 40 yrs later...

Soon it will be like the WWII vets... fewer and fewer...and it seems the antiwar crowd lives longer than we do.. lol...

I wish someone would institute at the Wall would be the computer system that they have at the WWII memorial where you can enter information via the web and a photo of the person who died... The impact of The Wall is big enough..but to tie faces to those names........

I have heard youg children ask who they were, and what they did... most of the times the reply satisfys them..but some of the time, they want to read more... something there, that they can access would be awesome..

[LZ NAM]

Ferg...that is the hardest part for me to wrap my brain around... weren't we all going to live forever?

I remember that commercial for the last incarnation of Woodstock. First part was all young 'flower children' the next part was them 40 yrs later...

Soon it will be like the WWII vets... fewer and fewer...and it seems the antiwar crowd lives longer than we do.. lol...

I wish someone would institute at the Wall would be the computer system that they have at the WWII memorial where you can enter information via the web and a photo of the person who died... The impact of The Wall is big enough..but to tie faces to those names........

I have heard youg children ask who they were, and what they did... most of the times the reply satisfys them..but some of the time, they want to read more... something there, that they can access would be awesome..


They are suppose to be building a learning center that explains all this...if you go to the link below and click on the text..."view it now" next to Colin Powell's picture, you'll get a better understanding what I'm posting here.

http://www.vvmf.org/index.cfm?SectionID=51