Secretary of State Clinton blames US for Mexico Violence

[commanding]

By Arshad Mohammed

MEXICO CITY (*******) - An "insatiable" appetite in the United States for illegal drugs is to blame for much of the violence ripping through Mexico, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said on Wednesday.

Clinton acknowledged the U.S. role in Mexico's vicious drug war as she arrived in Mexico for a two-day visit where she discussed U.S. plans to ramp up security on the border with President Felipe Calderon.

A surge in drug gang killings to 6,300 last year and fears the violence could seep over the border has put Mexico's drug war high on President Barack Obama (http://www.*******.com/news/globalcoverage/barackobama)'s agenda, after years of Mexico feeling that Washington was neglecting a joint problem.

"Our insatiable demand for illegal drugs fuels the drug trade. Our inability to prevent weapons from being illegally smuggled across the border to arm these criminals causes the death of police officers, soldiers and civilians," Clinton told reporters during her flight to Mexico City.

"I feel very strongly we have a co-responsibility."

Clinton said the Obama administration strongly backed Mexico in its fight with the drug cartels and vowed the United States would try to speed up the transfer of drug-fighting equipment promised under a 2007 agreement.

"We will stand shoulder-to-shoulder with you ... Our relationship is far greater than any threat," Clinton said at a news conference in Mexico City.

Crushing the drug cartels, who arm themselves with smuggled U.S. weapons and leave slain rivals, sometimes beheaded, in public streets, has become the biggest test of Calderon's presidency as the bloodshed rattles investors and tourists.

Washington plans to ramp up border security with a $184 million program to add 360 security agents to border posts and step up searches for smuggled drugs, guns and cash.

The Obama administration will spend $725 million to modernize border crossings and provide about $80 million to help Mexico purchase Black Hawk helicopters, Clinton said.

It was unclear whether this would be new money from the United States or whether the Obama administration had already requested the funds from Congress.

In Washington, Senator Joseph Lieberman said Obama's plans were not enough and he would seek $385 million more from Congress to pay for 1,600 more Customs and Border Patrol agents and bolster law enforcement centers in border areas.

"The danger here is clear and present. It threatens to get worse," Lieberman said.

CHALLENGES

Clinton will use her visit to address a trucking dispute with Mexico and long-running trade and immigration issues.

She said the trading partners were making headway on a spat which saw Mexico slam high tariffs on an estimated $2.4 billion worth of U.S. goods after the U.S. Congress ended a pilot program to let Mexican trucks operate in the United States.

"On the trucking dispute, we are working to try to resolve it. We are making progress," she said, adding that she expects Congress will be receptive to the administration's ideas.

Clinton, whose includes a stop in the northern business city of Monterrey on Thursday, said the thorny issues on the table did not mean that U.S.-Mexico relations were in trouble.

"I don't see it that way," she said. "I think that we have some specific challenges ... but every relationship has challenges in it."

Mexico has felt slighted by a delay in the arrival of drug-fighting equipment pledged by former President George W. Bush, as U.S. officials have sought assurances that the aid would not end up in the hands of corrupt officials or police.

The U.S. Congress this month trimmed the amount of drug aid money it will set aside this fiscal year to $300 million from $400 million last year, under a pledge of $1.4 billion to Mexico and Central America over three years.

Since taking office in December 2006, Calderon has spent more than $6.4 billion on his drug war and sent 45,000 troops and federal police to trouble spots around the country.

Mexico has repeatedly said, however, that its efforts will come to nothing if the United States does not clamp down on the smuggling of U.S. guns used in 90 percent of drug crimes south of the border.

Clinton described the violence Mexico is grappling with as "horrendous" and said cartels were alarmingly well equipped.

"It's not only guns. It's night vision goggles. It's body armor. These criminals are outgunning the law enforcement officials," she said. "When you go into a gun fight, where you are trying to round up bad guys and they have ... military style equipment that is much better than yours, you start out at a disadvantage."


link: http://www.*******.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE52O5RF20090325?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true

I love the reporter's name above: "Arse head" Mohammed

its the old "blame America first" deal.....

[LaoSexMachine]

Haysooos Christo!

[Hot Lips]

Co-responsibility. Sure. We are responsible for dealing with our criminals. And kicking theirs out.

[California Joe]

"184 million for 360 new agents". Those are some highly paid motherf*ckers...:)



80 million so Mexico can buy Black Hawks? Might as well, it's starting to sound like Mohammed Farah Adid is running things there. Somebody call Hoot...

[LaoSexMachine]

I say we roll down there Magnificent Seven style.

[Hot Lips]

"184 million for 360 new agents". Those are some highly paid motherf*ckers...:)

They'll be known as the Anti Illegals Group... A.I.G.

Heyyyyyyyyy wait a minute!

[commanding]

"The danger here is clear and present. It threatens to get worse," Lieberman said.



oh...wait...that was a movie...

[LordTyphus]

You have to admit the US junkies are the ones stoking the fires of this drug war. It's all about supply and demand; without demand, no supply. It should be a two-****ged strategy attacking both suppliers and those consuming the drug.

[WarDancer]

A direct quote from the "Blame America first" party.

[LordTyphus]

A direct quote from the "Blame America first" party.

And who the hell are you to make such an assumption? this has nothing to do with the blame game. I'm French (or Franco-australian) and have no marbles in that game.

[philbob]

too a degree she is right, that being said liberal policies will not get us out of this

[California Joe]

Of course there is a huge demand for drugs. Sure that's part of the problem, but who do they think is shipping all of those guns over the border into Mexico? Maybe the largest criminal enterprise in the US? You know, made up of cartel members that are likely illegal immigrants?

[Nano]

De-criminalize drugs and the violence ends. People will at the very least stop having to worry about their families being mowed down by a cartel. Violence in Mexico is a way of life now and some of it stems from the cartel culture, but really people just want to make fast/easy money and lots of it. The problem in Mexico is the lack of guns not an excess of guns. Americans are the people who ship the weapons to Mexico.

[Lazuris]

Americans are the people who ship the weapons to Mexico.

WRONG. its mexicans that steal and import illegal weapons into mexico from central america. Last time I checked walmart doesn't sell RPG's, and full auto rifles. Show me data that says that america is sending weapons into mexico versus the Queen Bee spouting off her mouth. Where are the facts. IN the LA Times a last week the chief of police from T.J. was quoted saying that the guns are from Central America not the US.


On a lighter note. We need the "Three Amigos" to ride down ther and take care of business.

[Skorzeny74]

The problem is that this violence could possibly underpin the very sovereignty of Mexico. I know U.S. forces are prohibited from entering Mexico.

[commanding]

You have to admit the US junkies are the ones stoking the fires of this drug war. It's all about supply and demand; without demand, no supply. It should be a two-****ged strategy attacking both suppliers and those consuming the drug.

I find your classification of anyone who uses drugs as "junkies" to be very unenlightened on your part. You should re-examine your views. Most of the stuff coming in is Marijuana.

[Bringer of Greater Things]

I find your classification of anyone who uses drugs as "junkies" to be very unenlightened on your part. You should re-examine your views. Most of the stuff coming in is Marijuana.


While I wouldn't agree with his classification, he's right on the economics issue. Drugs are a lucrative business because there is a HUGE demand for them in this country.
Since we show no sign of stopping, we might as well decriminalize it and take away their primary source of cash.

[budgie]

We're really good here at naming our threads in the hope nobody will scrutinize the content.

[Soldat_Américain]

We do have a lot of druggies here, but from what I know California's largest agricultural product is Marijuana upwards of $18 billion a year, so no we don't necessarily need Mexico for drugs, anyone down to call up Black Jack back to service?

[Bringer of Greater Things]

We do have a lot of druggies here, but from what I know California's largest agricultural product is Marijuana upwards of $18 billion a year, so no we don't necessarily need Mexico for drugs, anyone down to call up Black Jack back to service?


Weed isn't the only drug people pay money for.

[Zoomie]

We're really good here at naming our threads in the hope nobody will scrutinize the content.
And you're really bad at reading the actual article. :slap:

[loganinkosovo]

I know U.S. forces are prohibited from entering Mexico.


Oh, Really?


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=71171&stc=1&d=1238084015

[Soldat_Américain]

Weed isn't the only drug people pay money for.
I think there's enough meth and everything else within the United States to have a self sufficient drug economy if the government somehow was able to stop foreign drugs from entering the country.

[Skorzeny74]

Oh, Really?




Uh yeah, the Pentagon has forbade them from entering the country due to it's instability. Nice pic though

[JKD]

WRONG. its mexicans that steal and import illegal weapons into mexico from central america. Last time I checked walmart doesn't sell RPG's, and full auto rifles. Show me data that says that america is sending weapons into mexico versus the Queen Bee spouting off her mouth. Where are the facts. IN the LA Times a last week the chief of police from T.J. was quoted saying that the guns are from Central America not the US.



ATF takes aim at deep 'Iron river of guns'

By Kevin Johnson, USA TODAY
Guns recovered in some of the largest recent weapons seizures in Mexico are being traced deep into the United States — miles from the volatile border — revealing an expanding trafficking network that feeds Mexico's violent drug cartels, according to government documents and U.S. investigators.

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives records show 90% of the weapons recovered and traced originate from a growing number of sources spanning from the Northwest to New England. The trafficking routes have created what Sen. **** Durbin, D-Ill., described earlier this week as an "iron river of guns" flowing to the warring cartels, contributing to about 7,000 deaths in the past 14 months.

2,000 weapons a day

Some of the strongest recent evidence of the cartels' expanding gun pipeline:

• Four months after the largest weapons seizure in Mexican history, U.S. investigators have traced 383 of the more than 400 weapons seized from a stash house in Reynosa, Mexico, to 11 states including Ohio, South Carolina, Virginia, Florida, Michigan and Connecticut, according to ATF records.

• Nearly a year after a gunbattle left 13 dead in Tijuana, the seizure of 60 guns has prompted probes in Seattle, San Francisco, Philadelphia and Denver.

• The guns, many of them high-powered assault rifles, are streaming across the border at such a pace that some are being recovered in Mexico within days after their purchase in the U.S, according to ATF records.

One of the weapons in the Reynosa investigation — a 9mm handgun — was recovered 11 days after its purchase in the Houston area.

"Every time we open one of these cases, we are learning something new," said William Hoover of the ATF. The Reynosa seizure has spawned 25 to 30 ongoing trafficking investigations across the USA, he said.

Escalating violence in the battle to control the lucrative drug trade in Mexico has increased the demand for weapons, while the cost for firearms along the U.S. side of the border has soared, Hoover said. Those market forces drive traffickers far into the interior of the United States in search of new and cheaper supplies of firearms.

Denise Dresser, a political science professor at Mexico's Autonomous Institute of Technology, told a Senate panel Tuesday that up to 2,000 weapons per day flow into Mexico from the United States.

Many of the guns recovered in Mexico also are much more quickly used in crimes than is typical in U.S.-based gun investigations.

In the Reynosa seizure, U.S. investigators are focusing on about 120 weapons in which the time of a gun purchase to the time of recovery in a crime is half of the 10-year U.S. average. This includes newly purchased handguns and assault rifles, Hoover said.

"There is no doubt about it that the (drug-trafficking organizations) need firearms," he said. "Everybody knows the fight is on; everybody knows the pressure is being applied along the border."

Lawmakers join fight

That pressure, the ATF official says, is driving up gun prices in border states.

In Texas, for example, a used .45-caliber handgun may sell for about $750. North of the U.S. border states, Hoover says, the same gun may cost $350.

Within the past six months, Hoover says, a federal investigation revealed that traffickers were paying a flat fee of about $1,000 per gun, regardless of the type, to keep the flow of weapons moving.

Fearing increased spillover violence on the U.S. side of the border, federal lawmakers from border states, including Reps. Ciro Rodriguez, D-Texas, and Harry Teague, D-N.M., on Wednesday introduced legislation that would provide $379 million in law enforcement aid aimed in part at slowing the gun-smuggling trade.

The proposal includes a plan to inspect vehicles traveling into Mexico from the United States.

It also includes $30 million for the ATF to expand its gun-smuggling investigations along the Southwestern border.

"The funding in this bill provides law enforcement with additional resources to aggressively go after the illegal gun smuggling that has fueled much of the violence along the border," Teague says.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-03-18-cartelguns_N.htm

[Felix U. Gómez]

Co-responsibility. Sure. We are responsible for dealing with our criminals. And kicking theirs out.

Exactly how is it that you deal with your criminals, please explain. I think that if the U.S. were very effective at doing so, then you would effectively put an end to the drug trade because the part of cartels' infrastructure that runs through the U.S. wouldn't be there, and last I heard, it's still there.

[Felix U. Gómez]

I say we roll down there Magnificent Seven style.

I say you should first deal with your part of the problem (demand for drugs, drug dealers on your side, weapons) and then talk about "rolling down here".

[Felix U. Gómez]

A direct quote from the "Blame America first" party.

I don't see it as a blaim America first thing, I see it as a "for the first time in history a major U.S. government official accepts the U.S.' part of the blame in this" kind of thing. We both have plenty of blame in this, we should both accept it and move towards solving the problem.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Of course there is a huge demand for drugs. Sure that's part of the problem, but who do they think is shipping all of those guns over the border into Mexico? Maybe the largest criminal enterprise in the US? You know, made up of cartel members that are likely illegal immigrants?

So you don't think that "legal immigrants" could be involved or even, dare I say, U.S. citizens? You don't think that's a possibility? This thread is not about illegal immigration, at least that's what I get from it.

[Felix U. Gómez]

WRONG. its mexicans that steal and import illegal weapons into mexico from central america. Last time I checked walmart doesn't sell RPG's, and full auto rifles. Show me data that says that america is sending weapons into mexico versus the Queen Bee spouting off her mouth. Where are the facts. IN the LA Times a last week the chief of police from T.J. was quoted saying that the guns are from Central America not the US.


I believe that authorities from both countries have been repeating it over and over again throughout the past few years.

ATF: Mexico guns come from much of U.S.

WASHINGTON, March 19 (UPI) -- U.S. investigators say guns smuggled into Mexico come from across the United States and not just the border states.

Records compiled by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives indicate that 90 percent of the weapons seized from Mexican drug cartels were sourced in states as far north as Michigan and Connecticut as well as non-border states such as Florida and the South Carolina.
USA Today said Thursday that the investigation into a major gun battle in Tijuana last year took ATF agents to Seattle, Philadelphia, Denver and San Francisco.
"Every time we open one of these cases, we are learning something new," said William Hoover of the ATF.
The newspaper said the flow of guns into Mexico has become alarmingly efficient with some weapons seized in Mexico within days of being purchased from U.S. dealers.
Legislation introduced Wednesday in Washington would provide $379 million for enhanced anti-smuggling efforts, including inspections of vehicles crossing into Mexico and new investigations by the ATF in the border area.



© 2009 United Press International, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/03/19/ATF_Mexico_guns_come_from_much_of_US/UPI-72221237489307/

[commanding]

Oh, Really?


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=71171&stc=1&d=1238084015

Ah. good point...my own study of history, has revealed several US ARMY incursions into Mexico. One was by Ranald S. MacKenzie and his 4th Cav, to punish and kill Indians who were based about 80 miles or so inside mexico, this occured I believe in the 1870s or 80s, and I think he did two separate raids into Mexico, one of which he ran into Mexican federal troops, but both sides understood the intent and did not fight each other. The other more recent was when Black Jack Pershing, and a very young George Smith Patton (of world war II fame) went into Mexico to punish raiders of the Villa era. Patton killed his first man in that raid.

[commanding]

While I wouldn't agree with his classification, he's right on the economics issue. Drugs are a lucrative business because there is a HUGE demand for them in this country.
Since we show no sign of stopping, we might as well decriminalize it and take away their primary source of cash.
I have come to about the same conclusion until someone can sway me the other way. I realize the huge cash that is changing hands due to the drug smuggling....just think if that was all going into the coffers of US govt and the darn congress would spend it wisely, like on infrastructure, and domestic defense from terror (as opposed to fluffing it off on studies of wasteful, overbudget projects.)

[notherhen40]

Of course there is a huge demand for drugs. Sure that's part of the problem, but who do they think is shipping all of those guns over the border into Mexico? Maybe the largest criminal enterprise in the US? You know, made up of cartel members that are likely illegal immigrants?

You also for got ones in government responsible for making public policy...you know the ones called presidents, senators, and congressmen......

I have yet to hear about Obama's glorious plan to PATROL the border to prevent smugglers from crossing it...you know, kind of like putting a GREAT BIG fence on our side, and increasing patrols to ACTUALLY catch smugglers.....oh wait...if we did that, that would be called fortifying our borders, and end up sparking a international out cry from MEXICO which depends mainly from the income sent home from money made here by illegal workers....

Its the same old song and dance called the blame game. Except now we "own up" to our mistakes under Osama, er I mean Obama, and basiclly tell the world we have a problem, and also tell those who cry out we have a problem, so whatcha going to do about it?

Our current drug policy is a farce. Throw billions of dollars into the so called border problem, in which money benefits from the proceeding violence that benefits both sides, and allows drugs to be sold on our streets while we publicly brag about the arrests we made, while secretly behind closed doors, drug gangs and cartels are tipped off by police departments and rival gangs and cartels to clear new venues for business. All the while using our gloriously corrupt and inept law enforcement officers across the country to do the clean work for the cartels, gangs, and the government.

The only way we are going to stop the violence on both sides of the border, is legalize current illegal drug control policy, tax it and regulate is just like any other business. And for all those who would argue otherwise, either you are too stupid to know better, or too blind to see, but alcohol is a regulated, taxed and government sanctioned business, generating money from the consumer, and paying for other federal and state programs paying for the treatment of alcohol and drug related abuse type illnessess, and after prohibition, the legalization of alocohol stopped the crime related to it, while keeping the same amount of abuse related ilnessess down from what it was during prohibition.

But, this is america, where crooks get rich, along with legit businessess, all the while the average guy who obeys the law starves to death.

[notherhen40]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-03-18-cartelguns_N.htm

I love that article.....this issue has been going on now for years...and even the government is in on the illegal shipments of weapons through the U.S. to Mexico..with our lax inspection laws in our ports, to the lax border control policy....and just now we are crying out loud and blaming the legal gun owners for this problem, when in fact it clearly is not?

[Felix U. Gómez]

Ah. good point...my own study of history, has revealed several US ARMY incursions into Mexico. One was by Ranald S. MacKenzie and his 4th Cav, to punish and kill Indians who were based about 80 miles or so inside mexico, this occured I believe in the 1870s or 80s, and I think he did two separate raids into Mexico, one of which he ran into Mexican federal troops, but both sides understood the intent and did not fight each other. The other more recent was when Black Jack Pershing, and a very young George Smith Patton (of world war II fame) went into Mexico to punish raiders of the Villa era. Patton killed his first man in that raid.

What exactly are to trying to get to here? You are talking about the 1800's and early 20th century, this is the 21st century. The U.S. once sent in marines to a Russian port to support anti-bolshevik forces during the Russian Revolution, does that mean that you can do it now? Do you have the authority? Do us Mexicans have any say in that?

[Dragunov]

So you don't think that "legal immigrants" could be involved or even, dare I say, U.S. citizens? You don't think that's a possibility? This thread is not about illegal immigration, at least that's what I get from it.

Of course US citizens are involved in the drug distribution. Remember this guy(anglo btw) who went all the way to Tijuana to buy weed and send it all the way to Maryland?. At the end he got killed and put in an acid bath by the Tijuana cartel for not paying.

[Felix U. Gómez]

I have yet to hear about Obama's glorious plan to PATROL the border to prevent smugglers from crossing it...you know, kind of like putting a GREAT BIG fence on our side, and increasing patrols to ACTUALLY catch smugglers.....oh wait...if we did that, that would be called fortifying our borders, and end up sparking a international out cry from MEXICO which depends mainly from the income sent home from money made here by illegal workers....


While I do agree with much of your post, I don't egree with you on this part. Tell me, how is it that Mexico "depends mainly from income sent home from money made by illegal workers"? For some people, the money that their relatives send them constitutes an important suplement, however, this is a far cry from saying that the whole country "mainly" depends on this. Remitances (not all remitances are sent home by illegal aliens, legal ones also send money to their families) have actually been on the decline since the current global economic crisis started, and last year I believe didn't even hit the 20 billion dollar mark. Mexico's 2008 GDP was more than 1.3 trillion dollars. How does 20 billion dollars constitute a reliance when our GDP was 65 times that amount?

[California Joe]

So you don't think that "legal immigrants" could be involved or even, dare I say, U.S. citizens? You don't think that's a possibility? This thread is not about illegal immigration, at least that's what I get from it.

Of course I do. I agree with you that it needs to be stopped on our side of the border. I think we can agree that the majority of these guns are not bought or sold legally. The latest estimates from the Justice Dept. claim that the cartels and their various footsoldiers, whom I assume to be affiliates like MS13, are the single largest criminal enterprise operating on this side of the border, to say nothing of the control they exert on the Mexican side. I have a hard time believing that green cards are a big priority for drug smugglers and gun runners unless they're forged and readily available.

Obviously there needs to be a substantial crackdown on both sides of our borders. Something both of our governments seem to struggle with apparently, whether it be because of corruption, lack of manpower, lack of will on the part of our elected officials to take a stand that may prove to be politically unpopular, or any of the other plethora of reasons.

The porous border is a gigantic national security risk, period. And it needs to be sorted.

[LineDoggie]

What exactly are to trying to get to here? You are talking about the 1800's and early 20th century, this is the 21st century. The U.S. once sent in marines to a Russian port to support anti-bolshevik forces during the Russian Revolution, does that mean that you can do it now? Do you have the authority? Do us Mexicans have any say in that? Lemme go ask the streetcorner guys up the block, they seem to have had the authority to come here as they saw fit.

[Bruisercruiser]

De-criminalize drugs and the violence ends. People will at the very least stop having to worry about their families being mowed down by a cartel. Violence in Mexico is a way of life now and some of it stems from the cartel culture, but really people just want to make fast/easy money and lots of it. The problem in Mexico is the lack of guns not an excess of guns. Americans are the people who ship the weapons to Mexico.

Drug related violence will end if we decriminalize drugs? Are you serious!

[Bringer of Greater Things]

I think there's enough meth and everything else within the United States to have a self sufficient drug economy if the government somehow was able to stop foreign drugs from entering the country.


So if we stopped cocaine and heroin from entering the US, everyone would switch to meth? I don't see that happening.

[Bringer of Greater Things]

Drug related violence will end if we decriminalize drugs? Are you serious!


Yes. Bootlegger violence ended when we ended prohibition.
The mob had to find a new source of revenue.

[Soldat_Américain]

So if we stopped cocaine and heroin from entering the US, everyone would switch to meth? I don't see that happening.
It was an example that I was trying to make, that the we could do everything to eliminate the external drug trade that the indigenous industry could be self sufficient.

[ed316]

link: http://www.*******.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE52O5RF20090325?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true

I love the reporter's name above: "Arse head" Mohammed

its the old "blame America first" deal.....




"I feel very strongly we have a co-responsibility."


Looks like you can't read.

[Laworkerbee]

You have to admit the US junkies are the ones stoking the fires of this drug war. It's all about supply and demand; without demand, no supply.

Right because Mexicans don't do tons of blow as well, nor those Europeans, nope it's just us evil, uncaring Americans.

[Bruisercruiser]

Yes. Bootlegger violence ended when we ended prohibition.
The mob had to find a new source of revenue.

Mexican Drug Lords = Prohibition Gangsters?

Do you honestly think think the Mexican Drug Lords (insert the Drug Lords of your choice) will all of the sudden ship-up and partake in good ol' fashion capitalism? And do you think Mexican Government corruption will cease as well once the drugs are legalized?

[Laworkerbee]

Yes. Bootlegger violence ended when we ended prohibition.
The mob had to find a new source of revenue.

So America legalizes drugs, how does that solve the problem when drugs are done everywhere?

[Felix U. Gómez]

Right because Mexicans don't do tons of blow as well, nor those Europeans, nope it's just us evil, uncaring Americans.

Cocaine is an expensive drug. Yes, there are a lot of cocaine users in Mexico and the number is increasing, however, it is a stated fact according to the CIA Worldfactbook, that the United States is the world's largest cocaine consuming nation. Besides, if you look at the places where most of the heaviest cartel violence is happening in Mexico it is evident that they are fighting for access to the U.S. market.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Mexican Drug Lords = Prohibition Gangsters?

Do you honestly think think the Mexican Drug Lords (insert the Drug Lords of your choice) will all of the sudden ship-up and partake in good ol' fashion capitalism? And do you think Mexican Government corruption will cease as well once the drugs are legalized?

Oh, now it's "blame the evil old mexican government" for being the only government in North America with the presence of corruption. I'm glad that there is no corruption on the U.S. side. I guess that's why there is no crime or narcotraffiking on your side.

[Felix U. Gómez]

So America legalizes drugs, how does that solve the problem when drugs are done everywhere?

That it becomes someone else's problem.

[Laworkerbee]

Cocaine is an expensive drug. Yes, there are a lot of cocaine users in Mexico and the number is increasing, however, it is a stated fact according to the CIA Worldfactbook, that the United States is the world's largest cocaine consuming nation. Besides, if you look at the places where most of the heaviest cartel violence is happening in Mexico it is evident that they are fighting for access to the U.S. market.

Cocaine is dirt cheap and has gotten cheaper or price stabilized since the 1980's when cocaine was expensive.

Mexican drugs are sold at a much cheaper rate than in the United States, hell I was offered a gram for 10$ in Tijuana just a few months ago, I think it costs around 4X that in Los Angeles. Still dirt cheap.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Cocaine is dirt cheap and has gotten cheaper or price stabilized since the 1980's when cocaine was expensive.

Mexican drugs are sold at a much cheaper rate than in the United States, hell I was offered a gram for 10$ in Tijuana just a few months ago, I think it costs around 4X that in Los Angeles. Still dirt cheap.

Jesus Laworkerbee! Just where do you go when you go to Tijuana? I live in Ciudad Juárez, been doing it for 41 years now, and I've never, ever been offered any drugs by anyone here. As a matter of fact the only time that I was offered marijuana by anyone (a girlfriend that I had for a very brief time) was in El Paso. I'm not saying that you can't get it over here, obviously you can, but you would really have to go looking for it if you wanted some. As for the actual price of cocaine, I wouldn't really know, but even at $10 a gram (I don't know how many dosages that would amount to) that would be about $140 pesos a pop. Not exactly a people's drug down here. More like middle-class on up.

[Nano]

Drug related violence will end if we decriminalize drugs? Are you serious!

Yes for the most part it would at least as it relates to the trade. I don't think people just kill,decapitate,quarter,and then acid melt bodies for the ****s and giggles. The reason profit lots and lots of it given the illegal nature and demand for the product. The organized drug trade is a far greater problem and threat I believe in the U.S. than it is in Mexico. I know people will say how can that be we have no rolling head on our streets. We are doing now exactly what Mexico did in the 90's and looked the other way.

U.S. intelligence probably knew that what is taking place in Mexico today would take place more than a decade ago. The thing is that if we really counted drug violence related deaths in our country it be the same as in Mexico if not only slightly lower. Prisons serve but one purpose, but to help organized crime/gangs maintain control of the drug trade.

[Laworkerbee]

Jesus Laworkerbee! Just where do you go when you go to Tijuana? I live in Ciudad Juárez, been doing it for 41 years now, and I've never, ever been offered any drugs by anyone here. As a matter of fact the only time that I was offered marijuana by anyone (a girlfriend that I had for a very brief time) was in El Paso. I'm not saying that you can't get it over here, obviously you can, but you would really have to go looking for it if you wanted some. As for the actual price of cocaine, I wouldn't really know, but even at $10 a gram (I don't know how many dosages that would amount to) that would be about $140 pesos a pop. Not exactly a people's drug down here. More like middle-class on up.

Yeah I guess your right in terms of costs then. I was at a bar in a not so touristy part of town with mainly locals around. I'll find out the name so you can check it out :)

I'm going down again in two weeks.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Yeah I guess your right in terms of costs then. I was at a bar in a not so touristy part of town with mainly locals around. I'll find out the name so you can check it out :)

I'm going down again in two weeks.

I've never been to Tijuana, but I have been to L.A. I was there last weekend in fact. I hadn't been there since the early 80's or late 70's. Thank God for GPS devices! :)

[Laworkerbee]

I've never been to Tijuana, but I have been to L.A. I was there last weekend in fact. I hadn't been there since the early 80's or late 70's. Thank God for GPS devices! :)

Douche! you should have let me know :bash:

[Ordie]

So America legalizes drugs, how does that solve the problem when drugs are done everywhere?


What is forbidden makes it more seductive.

[Bruisercruiser]

Oh, now it's "blame the evil old mexican government" for being the only government in North America with the presence of corruption. I'm glad that there is no corruption on the U.S. side. I guess that's why there is no crime or narcotraffiking on your side.

Of course there is corruption in the U.S. no one here claimed otherwise.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Douche! you should have let me know :bash:

I couldn't, I was on a mission. I took the 9 year-old to Disneyland. I think that the next time I go there I will be in my 60's. Damm, that place is packed!

[Laworkerbee]

I couldn't, I was on a mission. I took the 9 year-old to Disneyland. I think that the next time I go there I will be in my 60's. Damm, that place is packed!

Yeah, best to go on a Tuesday or something but it's real hard to beat the crowds there.

[Felix U. Gómez]

What is forbidden makes it more seductive.

I think that if only marijuana were legalized it would take away a huge chunk of the pie from the cartels. It would probably greatly reduce the size of their operations and organizations. The problem of drug trafficking would still be there, but much smaller.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Of course there is corruption in the U.S. no one here claimed otherwise.

I know that, I was just trying to show that the power of corrupting of the cartels knows no bounds. They have so much money that they can and do buy people on BOTH sides of the border.

[Laworkerbee]

I think that if only marijuana were legalized it would take away a huge chunk of the pie from the cartels. It would probably greatly reduce the size of their operations and organizations. The problem of drug trafficking would still be there, but much smaller.

I always find it surprising that marijuana is brought in from Mexico, their quality has never been very good and it competes against California's marijuana crop which is a billion dollar business in itself.

[GtodeO]

Right because Mexicans don't do tons of blow as well, nor those Europeans, nope it's just us evil, uncaring Americans.
Well the mexicans cant afford to do blow whenever they want maybe a very few times at most thats why the cartels dont see profit in mexico and thats why is sent up north, also to get that over in europe is no easy but they already got their own supply from africa or asia

[Felix U. Gómez]

I always find it surprising that marijuana is brought in from Mexico, their quality has never been very good and it competes against California's marijuana crop which is a billion dollar business in itself.

I've heard that Canada also produces "good quality" marijuana and smuggles it into the U.S.

[Nano]

I've heard that Canada also produces "good quality" marijuana and smuggles it into the U.S.

Shhh shut up Felix it's about those bad Mexicans who want to dope up our youth. Canadians are our good cold neighbors to the north and give us quality maple syrup.

P.S. On another note looks like I'll be heading to Mexico next week on short notice. Just decided a few minutes ago.

[Laworkerbee]

I've heard that Canada also produces "good quality" marijuana and smuggles it into the U.S.

Indeed they do.

[notherhen40]

While I do agree with much of your post, I don't egree with you on this part. Tell me, how is it that Mexico "depends mainly from income sent home from money made by illegal workers"? For some people, the money that their relatives send them constitutes an important suplement, however, this is a far cry from saying that the whole country "mainly" depends on this. Remitances (not all remitances are sent home by illegal aliens, legal ones also send money to their families) have actually been on the decline since the current global economic crisis started, and last year I believe didn't even hit the 20 billion dollar mark. Mexico's 2008 GDP was more than 1.3 trillion dollars. How does 20 billion dollars constitute a reliance when our GDP was 65 times that amount?

It does constitute a reliant source of income, especially when Mexico's GDP does not filter down to most classes. And those left depend on the money sent home from illegal U.S. workers to feed the family. And that is why a lot of people there and here in the U.S turn to the drug trade...it sure pays a lot more. Especially considering the choice between starving, in south of the borders families part, and here in the north those involved do it for greed.

[Hot Lips]

I think that if the U.S. were very effective at doing so, then you would effectively put an end to the drug trade because the part of cartels' infrastructure that runs through the U.S. wouldn't be there, and last I heard, it's still there.

It's obvious we need to step up efforts on both fronts (deal with our criminals, kick theirs out). Not suffering from denial on this end.

It in no way excuses illegals nor those their who sell drugs here.

I think if the shoe was on the other foot -- criminals in the US were running drugs down to criminals in Mexico, you'd be boo hooing that the evil Americans were selling drugs to innocent Mexicans.

Either way - take from and blame America, avoid any semblance of responsibility as a nation.

[Ordie]

In order to deal with the Cartel's activity within the United States, you need the cooperation of the local immigrant community at large. The Cartels take advantage of this community knowing that they face deportation if they notify the police or the Feds. For the immigrant community at large, they are in a Catch 22 situation.

A re-thinking of tactics may be needed to enlist the community's support in the aprehension of Cartel suspects, kidnappers and gun-runners. In a nutshell, we cannot afford to deport key witnesses and informers if we want to prosecute the Cartels.

[JKD]

Jesus Laworkerbee! Just where do you go when you go to Tijuana? I live in Ciudad Juárez, been doing it for 41 years now, and I've never, ever been offered any drugs by anyone here. As a matter of fact the only time that I was offered marijuana by anyone (a girlfriend that I had for a very brief time) was in El Paso.

In the mid-late 90s friends and I used to drive down to J-town from Las Cruces some weekends and go bar hopping there on the strip. Wasn't hard to get drugs for those looking. At least not any harder than it was in the States. Knew a guy who got a good deal on some cocaine from a taco stand just down the road from Tequila Derby

[LordTyphus]

Right because Mexicans don't do tons of blow as well, nor those Europeans, nope it's just us evil, uncaring Americans.

:cantbeli:Paranoia strikes deep! We are talking about the US-Mexico border here. The Europeans have little relevance (W.Europe's cocaine is from S.America, not Mexico, and the heroin from Thailand or Afghanistan originally) to the discussion and the Mexican market isn't as lucrative a market as the US's.

[Hot Lips]

In order to deal with the Cartel's activity within the United States, you need the cooperation of the local immigrant community at large. The Cartels take advantage of this community knowing that they face deportation if they notify the police or the Feds. For the immigrant community at large, they are in a Catch 22 situation.

A re-thinking of tactics may be needed to enlist the community's support in the aprehension of Cartel suspects, kidnappers and gun-runners. In a nutshell, we cannot afford to deport key witnesses and informers if we want to prosecute the Cartels.

You mean illegalls who are drug dealers take advantage of other illegals that take advantage of American? No way!

Birds of a feather?

Why will we have to rely on illegals to catch other illegals? What about the citizens that live in those communities?

Or are they not so honest? Not loyal to their country... you know... the United States.

All you've got are excuses and double talk.

[Airgun_Hunter]

Of course I do. I agree with you that it needs to be stopped on our side of the border. I think we can agree that the majority of these guns are not bought or sold legally. The latest estimates from the Justice Dept. claim that the cartels and their various footsoldiers, whom I assume to be affiliates like MS13, are the single largest criminal enterprise operating on this side of the border, to say nothing of the control they exert on the Mexican side. I have a hard time believing that green cards are a big priority for drug smugglers and gun runners unless they're forged and readily available.

Obviously there needs to be a substantial crackdown on both sides of our borders. Something both of our governments seem to struggle with apparently, whether it be because of corruption, lack of manpower, lack of will on the part of our elected officials to take a stand that may prove to be politically unpopular, or any of the other plethora of reasons.

The porous border is a gigantic national security risk, period. And it needs to be sorted.

Spot on CJ.

It's too sad if Legal gun owners get blamed for gun/ammo smuggling into Mexico for they are just a bunch of people enjoying their rights.

Maybe it's part of the gun grabbers agenda to blame it to the gun owners and use that excuse to tighten gun laws in the U.S.?

[Ordie]

You mean drug dealers take advantage of other undocumented immigrants that take advantage of American? No way!

The Cartels swim in ponds of fear.
Reduce that fear, the Cartels have less room to swim.

Pragmatic policing and prosecution.

Ironically Arizonas anti immigrant policies have created fear within the hispanic community to the point it's giving the Cartels a foothold. The strategy is to kidnap the locals knowing they will not report to the police and force them for ransom or tasks.

[Nano]

Yeah you're right their loyalty is not to the United States anymore than say the loyalty of people in public service who take money in exchange for favors. Loyalty lies in the all mighty dollar. BTW Americans are the majority of drug dealers and users out there. Just look at our prison population.

Frankly the sort of crap that went on and is still going with financial institutions is far more morally criminal than some Mexican cartel supplying drugs to American dealers who in turn sell to willing U.S. consumers. In this instance people have a clear cut choice not to do drugs if they so sympathize with drug violence in Mexico or here. In the case of financial institutions we are, but slaves to our masters to be sold off to the Chinese and leveraged for loans. We are collateral.

[Hot Lips]

Yeah you're right their loyalty is not to the United States anymore than say the loyalty of people in public service who take money in exchange for favors.

I'm not defending them either. They are all corrupt. But the fact that some of our citizens are criminals doesn't mean it's OK for foreigners to break our laws. We'll take care of our criminals, we ask that foreign countries take care of theirs. Do yourself the service of dropping that ludicrous line of defense.


BTW Americans are the majority of drug dealers and users out there. Just look at our prison population.

CAUSE THIS IS AMERICA! I'm confident that statistically, foreign criminals out number American criminals in their home countries. :cantbeli:


Frankly the sort of crap that went on and is still going with financial institutions is far more criminal than some Mexican cartel supplying drugs to American dealers who in turn sell to willing U.S. consumers. In this instance people have a clear cut choice not to do drugs if they so sympathize with drug violence in Mexico or here.

Two wrongs don't make a right. You don't get to excuse away one crime by whining "but that other guy did something worse".

And maybe drug users don't give a flying fvck about the violence in Mexico. That doesn't mean that the rest of America has to excuse away responsiblity from illegal dealers, illegal runners, and the communities that harbor them all.

You argue that drug dealers wouldn't have a trade if not for drug users. Well drug users wouldn't have a drug habit if dealers weren't supplying them. Futile arguement. That fact is they are both wrong. Illegals who deal drugs have a "clear cut choice not to sell drugs". Illegals who sell out to be drug runners have a "clear cut choice not work for drug dealers". Etc. Etc.

So many excuses to try to justify breaking our laws.

[Airgun_Hunter]

Right because Mexicans don't do tons of blow as well, nor those Europeans, nope it's just us evil, uncaring Americans.

So I guess ALL the TONS and TONS of all kinds of drugs are just being stockpiled in Mexican Northern border states for their own needs. As your endless and growing drug consumers are already covered by domestic production.

Hehehe.. good one.

[Dilla2k]

link: http://www.*******.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE52O5RF20090325?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true

I love the reporter's name above: "Arse head" Mohammed

its the old "blame America first" deal.....

Its ****ounced "ar-shod" you philistine. Also yea in a way it is our fault. Its mexicos fault for the corruption and weak actions but we are the enablers with our money and guns pouring in. Ive personally smoked and snorted them to bloodshed. Im selfish and im fine with that.

[Hot Lips]

The Cartels swim in ponds of fear.

Ironically Arizonas anti immigrant policies have created fear within the hispanic community to the point it's giving the Cartels a foothold.

I didn't say undocument. I said illegal. Shall I start editing all your posts to state illegal instead?

I don't care to remove the fear illegals feel for breaking the law. It's a tiny piece of justice that gets dolled out while they try to violate our system and break our laws.

What is actually giving illegals and the Cartel members among them a foothold are the citizens that harbor illegals. The citizens that knowingly hide them within their ranks. The citizens that knowingly cover for them when they can't speak English. The citizens that knowingly hire illegals to work in their businesses where they'll blend in. The citizens that knowingly whine about the injustice of profiling while also turning a blind eye to the illegals among them because they want their illegal brethren to blend in without question. Citizens that slipped through the system and were taught not to honor our laws when it doesn't suit them.

[Ordie]

As your endless and growing drug consumers are already covered by domestic production.

The price of drugs is determined more by the cost of distribution not production.

Eliminate the distribution you cut the profits.

If you own the distribution through legalization of drugs, the pushers and cartels are out of business.

[Airgun_Hunter]

Yeah I guess your right in terms of costs then. I was at a bar in a not so touristy part of town with mainly locals around. I'll find out the name so you can check it out :)

I'm going down again in two weeks.


Let me know if you're ever in TJ. We'll have a beer and discuss which girl has the finest arse down in Adelitas Bar.

It's a CRIME for any U.S. tourist visiting TJ and not going to Adelitas. woot

[Ordie]

Hot Lips,

You do not know what you are dealing with here. The Cartels are not your usual day laborers for rounding up and shipping them off. These guys will make the Russian Mob look like Boy Scouts and out gun and out wit any Mayberry local law enforcement in the US.

We're dealing with a different paradigm where there is no black nor white or right or wrong solution.

To fight this war, you need collaborators, informants, and allies reagrdless of status, record, race and creed. The sooner you get the collaborators, the quicker this war will end.

[Hot Lips]

Thank you Captain Obvious for explaining that Cartels are not the run of the mill illegal.

We do need collaborators, informants, and allies. Too bad we have a sub-section of our society that willingly harbors illegals within their ranks and creates a place of refuge for the more unscrupulous criminals among them all. And then wants to use their willingness to break our laws as a bargaining chip to show their "loyalty" to this country.

[Felix U. Gómez]

I'm not defending them either. They are all corrupt. But the fact that some of our citizens are criminals doesn't mean it's OK for foreigners to break our laws. We'll take care of our criminals, we ask that foreign countries take care of theirs. Do yourself the service of dropping that ludicrous line of defense.


You'll take care of your criminals? May I ask when? You've been fighting the "war on drugs" for almost 40 years, and it's still going on! I live in México, in Ciudad Juárez. I cross into El Paso frequently (no, I'm not an illegal alien as you probably think of all of us), and believe me, we Mexicans are fighting a real war on drugs, you are not. Most U.S. efforts are concentrated only on the border, but once the drugs get through (sometimes with the aid of corrupt U.S. officials) they are virtually free to go to their final destination which is in every single town and city in the U.S. That, in my book ain't really much of a war. My brother went to a wedding in Guanajuato, Gto. a couple of weeks ago. It's about a thousand miles distance from the border, and he said he went through close to 20 checkpoints manned by troops and federal police. How many checkpoints would drugs have to go through in order to travel a thousand miles into the U.S.? One? two? three? At the most I would say three, and if they are anything like the ones in between Las Cruces and T. or C., they are not much of a checkpoint.
What about the cartels in your country? Hillary Clinton finally admitted that the U.S. has part of the blame for what's happening in my country because of the demand for drugs and the weapons trade, but so far I have yet to hear one important U.S. government official admit that the U.S. has its own drug cartels. You claim that they are all run by illegal aliens, but I find it hard to believe. In Mexico, most everyone knows the names of all the drug cartels and the names of their leaders. In the U.S. no one knows who these people or organizations are. In Colombia, the Colombians control the trade. In Central America the Central Americans control the trade. In Mexico, the Mexican cartels control the trade. But, you would have us believe that the mafia and other organized crime groups in the U.S. just one day decided to let the Mexicans (and illegals at that) just walk in and take over what would have been their most profitable business ever without a fight? In Mexico when one cartel wants to move in on another cartel's turf, you can bet your socks that there is going to be a war. I must have been asleep during the days when the Mexican cartels (composed solely of illegal aliens) fought the U.S. mafia, mob, and all other organized crime groups including Aryan brotherhood, cribs and the likes, and thoroughly kicked their rears in a very bloody turf war. Why did I miss it, because it never happened. The Americans have never lost control of the drug trade within the U.S. And why don't we hear of any of this in the media, because there are people in very high places behind the drug trade and they are very powerful and would love to continue to keep you believing that it is just Mexicans and illegals doing all this crap. The only time that you see people in the U.S. being arrested for this in the U.S. it is just the very small fish, the mules, the peddlers. The big fish are never even mentioned. When corrupt U.S. officials are arrested, it is only the low level border patrol agents and customs inspectors who are bought for $30k, $50k, and that's it. But they never catch anyone higher up. In Mexico they've arrested people very high up who were getting $400k a month. Do you think that the cartels can't afford to pay important people in the U.S. that and more? When are you going to actually start catching these guys, these criminals? Another forty years?

[Felix U. Gómez]

Thank you Captain Obvious for explaining that Cartels are not the run of the mill illegal.

We do need collaborators, informants, and allies. Too bad we have a sub-section of our society that willingly harbors illegals within their ranks and creates a place of refuge for the more unscrupulous criminals among them all. And then wants to use their willingness to break our laws as a bargaining chip to show their "loyalty" to this country.

So, there are no other drug dealers in the U.S. except illegals? Nice, really nice.

[Airgun_Hunter]

You'll take care of your criminals? May I ask when? You've been fighting the "war on drugs" for almost 40 years, and it's still going on! I live in México, in Ciudad Juárez. I cross into El Paso frequently (no, I'm not an illegal alien as you probably think of all of us), and believe me, we Mexicans are fighting a real war on drugs, you are not. Most U.S. efforts are concentrated only on the border, but once the drugs get through (sometimes with the aid of corrupt U.S. officials) they are virtually free to go to their final destination which is in every single town and city in the U.S. That, in my book ain't really much of a war. My brother went to a wedding in Guanajuato, Gto. a couple of weeks ago. It's about a thousand miles distance from the border, and he said he went through close to 20 checkpoints manned by troops and federal police. How many checkpoints would drugs have to go through in order to travel a thousand miles into the U.S.? One? two? three? At the most I would say three, and if they are anything like the ones in between Las Cruces and T. or C., they are not much of a checkpoint.
What about the cartels in your country? Hillary Clinton finally admitted that the U.S. has part of the blame for what's happening in my country because of the demand for drugs and the weapons trade, but so far I have yet to hear one important U.S. government official admit that the U.S. has its own drug cartels. You claim that they are all run by illegal aliens, but I find it hard to believe. In Mexico, most everyone knows the names of all the drug cartels and the names of their leaders. In the U.S. no one knows who these people or organizations are. In Colombia, the Colombians control the trade. In Central America the Central Americans control the trade. In Mexico, the Mexican cartels control the trade. But, you would have us believe that the mafia and other organized crime groups in the U.S. just one day decided to let the Mexicans (and illegals at that) just walk in and take over what would have been their most profitable business ever without a fight? In Mexico when one cartel wants to move in on another cartel's turf, you can bet your socks that there is going to be a war. I must have been asleep during the days when the Mexican cartels (composed solely of illegal aliens) fought the U.S. mafia, mob, and all other organized crime groups including Aryan brotherhood, cribs and the likes, and thoroughly kicked their rears in a very bloody turf war. Why did I miss it, because it never happened. The Americans have never lost control of the drug trade within the U.S. And why don't we hear of any of this in the media, because there are people in very high places behind the drug trade and they are very powerful and would love to continue to keep you believing that it is just Mexicans and illegals doing all this crap. The only time that you see people in the U.S. being arrested for this in the U.S. it is just the very small fish, the mules, the peddlers. The big fish are never even mentioned. When corrupt U.S. officials are arrested, it is only the low level border patrol agents and customs inspectors who are bought for $30k, $50k, and that's it. But they never catch anyone higher up. In Mexico they've arrested people very high up who were getting $400k a month. Do you think that the cartels can't afford to pay important people in the U.S. that and more? When are you going to actually start catching these guys, these criminals? Another forty years?

Quoted for truth.

First thing is ADMITTING you have a problem, then get help, help others help yourself as a GROUP with the same disease.

Just like A.A. p-)

[Ordie]

Too bad we have a sub-section of our society that willingly harbors illegals within their ranks and creates a place of refuge for the more unscrupulous criminals among them all. And then wants to use their willingness to break our laws as a bargaining chip to show their "loyalty" to this country.

“All the people like us are we, And everyone else is They.”

-Kipling

[Bruisercruiser]

The price of drugs is determined more by the cost of distribution not production.

Eliminate the distribution you cut the profits.

If you own the distribution through legalization of drugs, the pushers and cartels are out of business.

Not sure if I would go that far. The argument that if we legalize drugs the violence will end and the cartels will go out of business is faulty. What exactly will the cartels move on to? Will they go legit and be the official producer of Marijuana for Mexico? And what makes you think the Mexican government can control the market? Will the prices go down once the market is flooded with legal pot?

Some of you are looking at the cartel as pure entrepreneurs who will just go where the money is. I think you're giving them too much credit.

And yes I know the U.S. is a major player in this and we have corruption as well...

[Ordie]

Not sure if I would go that far. The argument that if we legalize drugs the violence will end and the cartels will go out of business is faulty. What exactly will the cartels move on to? Will they go legit and be the official producer of Marijuana for Mexico? And what makes you think the Mexican government can control the market? Will the prices go down once the market is flooded with legal pot?

Some of you are looking at the cartel as pure entrepreneurs who will just go where the money is. I think you're giving them too much credit.

And yes I know the U.S. is a major player in this and we have corruption as well...

There will be a weeing period. Just as tobbacco use is on the decline, perhaps drugs will have a similar pattern.

You bring up an interesting point about entrepeneurs. Mexico has very relaxed laws on monopolies and oligopolies. Anti-trust policies would be great for Mexican start ups and mom and pop businesses.

[Jobu]

The price of drugs is determined more by the cost of distribution not production.

Eliminate the distribution you cut the profits.

If you own the distribution through legalization of drugs, the pushers and cartels are out of business.

Yes, let's legalize crack cocaine, heroin, meth, pcp, and every other drug out there because the prices are just too high.

[12oclock]

Yes. Bootlegger violence ended when we ended prohibition.
The mob had to find a new source of revenue.
Ya but you're not gonna find some drunk robbing Walgreens for a 40oz. Clearly you don't understand what some of these drugs do to the human psyche.

[Hot Lips]

“All the people like us are we, And everyone else is They.”

-Kipling

That might have been clever except I'm not hiring, harboring, nor turning a blind eye to known or suspected illegals in my community. Can you say the same? Can your relatives? Your friends? I noted when we brought this up before you ignored every question posed.

There is a reason nations have borders, so at it's base, it is a case of us and they. They don't belong here. And like I said, part of the problem is some of "us" are more loyal to "they".


.

[Hot Lips]

So, there are no other drug dealers in the U.S. except illegals? Nice, really nice.

I didn't say that, YOU said that.

I already addressed the fact that we have drug dealers and users and that they are our problem to deal with.... as much as I'd love to deport them as well.

[Hot Lips]

You'll take care of your criminals? May I ask when? You've been fighting the "war on drugs" for almost 40 years, and it's still going on!

We'll give you a date and time that the war on drugs will end when Mexico does the same, mmmmmkay?

We acknowledge (repeatedly) that we have issues to address. Doesn't excuse illegals crimes in America.

And it doesn't matter if you think Mexico's situation is worse. Doesn't excuse illegals crimes in America.

I'm sure you have a 1,000 more excuses to doll out. Bottom line is they do not belong here.

[Bringer of Greater Things]

Ya but you're not gonna find some drunk robbing Walgreens for a 40oz. Clearly you don't understand what some of these drugs do to the human psyche.


Then put them in jail for robbery.
Punish the crime, not the substance.
If someone wants to get stoned/high/wet in his own home, let him. The minute he hurts someone else or breaks some sort of law, then you arrest him for that crime.

When I turned 21 I didn't start driving drunk everywhere.

[Felix U. Gómez]

We'll give you a date and time that the war on drugs will end when Mexico does the same, mmmmmkay?

We acknowledge (repeatedly) that we have issues to address. Doesn't excuse illegals crimes in America.

And it doesn't matter if you think Mexico's situation is worse. Doesn't excuse illegals crimes in America.

I'm sure you have a 1,000 more excuses to doll out. Bottom line is they do not belong here.

I might have a 1000 excuses, according to you, but you seem to be a single issue person.

[Soldat_Américain]

Great grandparents came from Mexico before 1916...when there kind of was no fence or anything. And when my Grandfather was alive, very proud paratrooper btw, and my grandmother were very adamant in their distaste for the amount of illegals pooring into the country.