Russia keeps quiet as Baltics remember Stalin’s deportations [Archive] - Page 2

lightfire

03-27-2009, 01:53 PM

Back to the stone age.. I need to refresh my memory of the agricultural situation back during pre-ww2 independence..

Please refresh, it was fairly better than in SU. You aren't saying that SU occupied Baltic countries to "improve" agricultural situation, are you?

You were part of the country; anyone, threatening its existance must be dealt with. That's the common principle. The measure and severity depends on the goverment.

part, that has become such illegally by occupation. Oh it was dealt alright. Depend on the government? Fine. Still the government that keeps it's occupied subjects in soviet paradise by force deserves the term "prison" - the point of this discussion started by Switek is all about.

Please, i've had enough fairy tales for today. Killing an old head of the kolchoz along with his family, or throwing a handgrenade into the crowd during dance is not fighting, it's terrorism.

Partisan warfare is no sweet thing. Soviet partisans did not conduct any better, one can offer such examples in any resistance movement.

Also, no "fighting till mid-50s", only hiding.

generally, the large scale fighting began to slow down sine 1950, yet it was active till mid 50ties, you like it or not. Part of partisan strategy is hiding from the enemy, yes.

Didn't follow, what did you mean?

You said smth about resistance. There was indeed no armed resistance in 1940. That does not deny the fact of occupation by all legal means. that's what I meant.

kalkun

03-27-2009, 01:54 PM

Actually Diukov has a LiveJournal out there and he actively uses it.
Ilmakas, could you point his main mistakes so that I could pass this info to him and get his comment?

There are some threads regarding Djukov in Estonian mil.net forum also and even Estonian Russians call it 100% propaganda. From my point of view there is nothing to comment about that "historian".

kalkun

03-27-2009, 01:55 PM

Sounds reasonable to me...

Maybe we should apply to mods somehow or....(your recommendations)?

Mr.K

03-27-2009, 01:56 PM

Bachelor remember, if someone hates Russian doesn't mean he is Nazi..
I got to say something about Afganistan.
Russian army was doing crimes on civilians and that is confirmed. Polish army is not killing civilians. That is main difrence.

That is confirmed by who? Western governments (bias) , NGOs (bias), afghans (bias again).

Due to the current multinational presence of the NATO contengent in Afghanistan it's hard to say who exactly killed civilians since 2001. You just get the benefit of reasonable doubt thanks to a small presence and the lack of air force and artillery deployment to cause collateral damage.

Bolt

03-27-2009, 01:58 PM

There are some threads regarding Djukov in Estonian mil.net forum also and even Estonian Russians call it 100% propaganda. From my point of view there is nothing to comment about that "historian".
I don't speak Estonian. And I have no idea what is the link to that forum. Could you please fast translate (I mean, even with gram. errors etc) just the main points?

peter.pl

03-27-2009, 01:59 PM

So holocaust is not true, everyone said it had place but Nazis don't. Now you can see how stupid argument was "That is confirmed by who? Western governments (bias) , NGOs (bias), afghans (bias again)."
Man there is a lot of difrences but I think I don't had post them cause you knows your "true" and rest knows second true :roll:

Bolt

03-27-2009, 02:13 PM

Peter, while I must admit that modern conflict in Afghanistan is a little interest for me, and I don't read a lot of articles about it and maybe this is true that Polish contingent didn't kill civvies; others in that NATO mission - probably, mainly US and British, as they posses heavy equipment - certainly did kill civilians, if not, why there is so wide-spread support to Taliban among usual Afghans? It was not as wide-spread in the beginning of the war, than it is now. Probably because NATO soldiers did something nasty also?

So please stop portraying this conflict as some sort of "Elf knights on white horses versus absolute orcs" and Soviet war in Afghanistan as a rape and kill fest. We were there for our reasons, you are there for yours - mainly to show loyality to your boss and to get $$$ or other help from them.

kalkun

03-27-2009, 02:17 PM

I don't speak Estonian. And I have no idea what is the link to that forum. Could you please fast translate (I mean, even with gram. errors etc) just the main points?

Basically he's playing with numbers, saying Estonians are overreacting with numbers,that there were 2.5x less victims:roll:. It's kind a positive that hes writing that repressions happened and calls them tragedy, but I don't take his numbers seriously(you probably don't take ours).

AlexMartin2

03-27-2009, 02:30 PM

Basically he's playing with numbers, saing Estonians are overreacting with numbers,that there were 2.5x less victims:roll:. It's kind a positive that hes writing that repressions happened and calls them tragedy, but I don't take his numbers seriously(you probably don't take ours).

Did they (people from that forum) have visited archives with declassified NKVD documents, and can they prove that his numbers are incorrect?

ilmakas

03-27-2009, 02:35 PM

Did they (people from that forum) have visited archives with declassified NKVD documents, and can they prove that his numbers are incorrect?
If you think that Dyukov's Myth of Genocide is shot down only by forum-goers then you are mistaken. Read this http://www.historycommission.ee/ this commission was lead by Max Jakobson (finnish jew btw) no estonians were on the board and is a collection of investigations made by different historians.

Bolt

03-27-2009, 02:35 PM

Basically he's playing with numbers, saying Estonians are overreacting with numbers,that there were 2.5x less victims:roll:. It's kind a positive that hes writing that repressions happened and calls them tragedy, but I don't take his numbers seriously(you probably don't take ours).
I remember he pointed out that there is some Estonian historian (I forgot his name, will look it up tomorrow!) who says that there was X number of oppressed Ests (I also don't remember this exact figure. If this thread will be alive by tommorow, I'll post it here) and that Diukov basically agrees with him on that.

kalkun

03-27-2009, 02:38 PM

Did they (people from that forum) have visited archives with declassified NKVD documents, and can they prove that his numbers are incorrect?

I don't know whether they have visited archives. I am not gonna start playing with you over numbers here, there are multiple articles regarding his book, I think some were up at the djukov livejournal(for example: http://www.diplomaatia.ee/index.php?id=242&no_cache=1&L=1&no_cache=1&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=277&tx_ttnews[backPid]=293&cHash=161475d217 (http://www.diplomaatia.ee/index.php?id=242&no_cache=1&L=1&no_cache=1&tx_ttnews) (the fck is this link doin' now?)
Try google translator, though it gives a crap translation for Estonian language.

@Bolt, you could ask his definition on genocide.

LineDoggie

03-27-2009, 02:40 PM

Did they (people from that forum) have visited archives with declassified NKVD documents, and can they prove that his numbers are incorrect?
Can anyone access those archives to verify if he is telling the truth, or just merely pulling facts out his rectum? Why arent they open and Online for researchers around the world?

Seems to me, if the facts support his claims the Russian Government would want to crow about it from the rooftops to shut down critics of the Soviet Unions Actions

in other words to put it plainly, How do we take him for his word to be telling the truth?

Havoc345

03-27-2009, 02:54 PM

This is pointless Russia vs. West, China vs. USA, Greece vs. Turkey threads are nothing but bull****. Plz will a mod lock this before it gets even more ridiculous. I just can't read anymore Nazi and Soviet propaganda and the debate over how the Baltic republics were or not Nazi collaborators. Let me just say one point, in some of these nations such as the Baltic areas and Scandinavia or even France some saw the Nazi cause as one against Communism. That is why young men enlisted in the SS, of course their was some degree of Anti-Semitism involved with the foreign SS ideology but most historians today agree that most joined to fight Communism.

*Commence Russia STRONGORZ!!!! onslaught*

Switek

03-27-2009, 02:59 PM

EDIT: Double post

Switek

03-27-2009, 03:01 PM

Bachelor remember, if someone hates Russian doesn't mean he is Nazi..
I got to say something about Afganistan.
Russian army was doing crimes on civilians and that is confirmed. Polish army is not killing civilians. That is main difrence.

Bachelor's problem (and many Russians here, as well) is that they don't get one simple fact. They are backing Stalinist version of the history and are, de facto, commie advocates. They can get that there are people who criticize such attitude. Due the lack of arguments they are labeled (automatically) by them Russophobes or Russia haters... rofl

Hast2

03-27-2009, 03:07 PM

Bachelor's problem (and many Russians here, as well) is that they don't get one simple fact. They are backing Stalinist version of the history and are, de facto, commie advocates. They can get that there are people who criticize such attitude. Due the lack of arguments they are labeled (automatically) by them Russophobes or Russia haters... rofl

Blah-blah-blah, as always cheap insults, cheap flame, cheap Switek.

Bolt

03-27-2009, 03:12 PM

Can anyone access those archives to verify if he is telling the truth, or just merely pulling facts out his rectum? Why arent they open and Online for researchers around the world?

Yes, there are open archives that any people can access - non-citizens of Russia must get clearance though first. But it doesn't mean, it's impossible. Many authors from the West did this.
if Diukov managed to get acces to documents, it means anyone can. He just needs to get his ass up from the chair in front of his PC and actually go to the Archives.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4014132&postcount=64

Switek

03-27-2009, 03:19 PM

Blah-blah-blah, as always cheap insults, cheap flame, cheap Switek.
roflroflrofl

Good one!!!

LineDoggie

03-27-2009, 03:24 PM

Yes, there are open archives that any people can access - non-citizens of Russia must get clearance though first. But it doesn't mean, it's impossible. Many authors from the West did this.
if Diukov managed to get acces to documents, it means anyone can. He just needs to get his ass up from the chair in front of his PC and actually go to the Archives.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4014132&postcount=64

If thats the case then why hasnt

A- the Russian Government(As legal inheritors of the USSR) screamed Rape about being the unfairly being held historically responsible for such actions under Stalin(the Georgian Foreigner Occupier)?

B- the Russian Government vigorously put the correct information out to the world as a way of heading off such "Lies"

C- their been a Massive consensus among Historians that these incidents are False?

What I see is 1 historian(who's apparently whole career is disputing Soviet atrocities) debunking all these claims without providing tangible rebuttal, or copies of source documents.

I can say I was the First Astronaut from Brooklyn to land on Mars, My research shows me to be correct, Prove me wrong?

see how that works without sources?

I have no doubts that certain examples may have been exaggerated for effect, but the base is there in these incidents. To claim Pure as a Virgin when one has already been spotted making ****o's isnt going to convince anyone.

Xaito

03-27-2009, 03:39 PM

Bachelor's problem (and many Russians here, as well) is that they don't get one simple fact. They are backing Stalinist version of the history and are, de facto, commie advocates.
the simple fact that you and some others don't get is that many Russians here don't hate their country, heritage etc.
That's why it's bugging us when you talk smack about it and also have the expectation that we actually should join in and talk some smack about it too - you know like "but, but! it's the Soviet Union - everybody knows they were evil how can you not talk bad about it like we're taught to do?" :)
Throw with catchphrases like "stalinist" or "communist" all you want Switek - unless you have something substantial/convincing to say and can actually say it in a way that doesn't just piss off the ones it's directed at you won't find much agreement from "many Russians here".

Use your common sense for a bit - you're not in a pub with your Polish friends taking a piss at Russia over some beers.
If all you do - in what usually should be a serious discussion - is throwing around insults and taunt it's very rude in my opinion.

LineDoggie

03-27-2009, 03:47 PM

I dont think anyone should hate their Homeland, far from it in fact.

sepheronx

03-27-2009, 03:51 PM

Blaming one country (even if it is the successor state of an empire), because of a leader of a collaboration of countries conjoined, whom did really stupid stuff, is just stupid itself. I don't see a reason to blame the Russian's just because Stalin did something 50 years ago. I don't blame them for allowing the Bolsheviks killing ancestors of mine. Pin pointing the blame on somebody today for mistakes in the past, is just finding an excuse to not also blame themselves.

Nobi

03-27-2009, 10:20 PM

the simple fact that you and some others don't get is that many Russians here don't hate their country, heritage etc.
That's why it's bugging us when you talk smack about it and also have the expectation that we actually should join in and talk some smack about it too - you know like "but, but! it's the Soviet Union - everybody knows they were evil how can you not talk bad about it like we're taught to do?" :)
Throw with catchphrases like "stalinist" or "communist" all you want Switek - unless you have something substantial/convincing to say and can actually say it in a way that doesn't just piss off the ones it's directed at you won't find much agreement from "many Russians here".

Use your common sense for a bit - you're not in a pub with your Polish friends taking a piss at Russia over some beers.
If all you do - in what usually should be a serious discussion - is throwing around insults and taunt it's very rude in my opinion.

Switek is a retard, he still lives in cold war. :)

MZKT

03-28-2009, 03:32 AM

If thats the case then why hasnt

A- the Russian Government(As legal inheritors of the USSR) screamed Rape about being the unfairly being held historically responsible for such actions under Stalin(the Georgian Foreigner Occupier)?

B- the Russian Government vigorously put the correct information out to the world as a way of heading off such "Lies"

C- their been a Massive consensus among Historians that these incidents are False?

A- Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia and other former soviet republics are inheritors of USSR. All accomplishments of USSR 1917-1991, being those negative or positive, are common heritage of all GUS countries. There was never a "russian great purge" as there was never a "russian victory in WW2" or "ukrainian famine" or "georgian Stalin" or "burjat Baikal-Amur-Railroad". It was all soviet with member sof all soviet nations participating. And baltic countries should remember that members of their nations were both gulag prisoners and gulag waiters, soviet space project engineers and soviet street cleaners like all other soviet nations.

B,C - Yes, many claims in the recent popular culture of eastern europe like "20 Millions Gulag-death" or ""NKVD-SS cooperation agreement" were objectively proven to be wrong according to archive data, and actually not just mistakes but deliberate propaganda to push a certain political agenda.

Further there is currently a unique battle for soviet history taking place, with politically unduced claims and counterclaims between eastern european countries.
We don't see Indians charging United Kingsdom with accusations of famine perfomed by East-India company, nor Mayas or Inkas charging Spain with genocide or african countries/Native Americans charging USA with slavery/genocide.

But in relationships between eastern europeans the history seems to have priority and attempts to manipulate it from both sides as well.

Wojtop

03-28-2009, 06:49 AM

Bachelor

03-28-2009, 08:07 AM

Just as a sidenote - MZKT, your otherwise balanced post is invalidated by one blatant lie - namely it can easily be proven that NKVD cooperated with Gestapo, it can be verified by any literate person because there exist protocols from common conference held in 1940 in Cracow. Want to read it in Russian? In brief period when Russian press was free it was published in periodic ""Nova i Novieyshaya Istoriya"(?), no 5, 1995. According to various sources there were more conferences like that held in Brest, Zakopane and Przemysl. Sorry for dispelling your illusions :oops:

So what and in what? "...NKVD cooperated with Gestapo..." It was befor the war. It was before war. Soviet Union did not want war. There was time as CIA co-operated with KGB. The Mossad co-operated with KGB. CIA co-operated with Al-Qaeda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda). CIA agrees with terrorists. Poland agreed with Hitler to attack Czechia.

Some problem that somebody in Poland, Baltic can see only that that wish to see or that show to them. They forget about the dirty affairs in which history.
Also that is interesting. Twenty years these countries are free and independent but they have huge political and economic problems. Simple people live badly. Who is guilty? They are spoken by propagation - Russia. Surprisingly! Not their leaders! In all - Russia. For example in Ukraine. The country is independent twenty years but has such chaos and poverty. They leaders to recollect events for hundred years ago but nothing do now. Distract people from real problems. That leaders to kindle nationalism.
These countries never were free or are free for short time. And now they are not free. It is independence - illusion. If they searched for job to Soviet Union in the past that they a cheap labour for Europe now. There are many Baltics people has go to work to Europe now. It is similar as they went to work to Soviet Union. If in the Soviet Baltic there were big factories and workplaces but it is not present now. Czechia had the factories in manufacture of cars and planes. Now it is the competitor to Europe. Now automobile factory is German owner. Do you know good plane L-39? Real good! The aviation factory is died... They have nothing in the industry. They began to provide Europe by farmer production. The German auto factory has moved to Czechia but money for Czech workers pay twice less than in Germany. These are the backward countries. Czechia now is a cheap labour.
All have repeat now. The Soviet Army were in Poland and Czechia. American Army in coming now. What the difference?
I was in Czechia. People speak about that that the European Union forbids farmers to earn money.... A lot of forbids as in Communism.

And so interesting - in all guilty Russia. Not Soviet Union, communists... In all guilty Russian...

Some Baltic countries and Poland are similar to the small crying girl that which is itself guilty and wishes to deceive all her tears.

Sorry for my bad English.

Who cares anyway? We're living in XXI century and we should really move on. Whole world is focused on fighting crisis and we should really stick to that both in Russia and Eastern Europe instead of pointlessly fighting over history of USSR. We've got our view (Stalin BAD) you got yours (Stalin cool). Let it be like that.

I agree 100 % !!!

http://smilies.sofrayt.com/fsc/thumbs-up.gif

Fallap

03-28-2009, 09:24 AM

Some of my familiy perished in Stalins genoside during the 30's

Stalin is baaad

omghihi

03-28-2009, 10:26 AM

Mr.Woland

03-28-2009, 11:20 AM

MZKT

03-28-2009, 02:15 PM

Just as a sidenote - MZKT, your otherwise balanced post is invalidated by one blatant lie - namely it can easily be proven that NKVD cooperated with Gestapo, it can be verified by any literate person because there exist protocols from common conference held in 1940 in Cracow. Want to read it in Russian? In brief period when Russian press was free it was published in periodic ""Nova i Novieyshaya Istoriya"(?), no 5, 1995. According to various sources there were more conferences like that held in Brest, Zakopane and Przemysl. Sorry for dispelling your illusions :oops:

As I said, this is a common accusation, which is based on a document first appeared in the early 90s and in the meantime proved to be falsified. Dyukov is not the only to mention it.

There was never a "brief period when Russian press was free". During the Jelzin rule the press, controlled by the oligarchs of Jelzins's clique, was strongly encouraged to denunciate the communist system as much as possible to defend Jelzins destruction of economy and enrichment of the oligarchs according to the principle: "Yes, I know that under my government your PPP became halfth of what it was during soviet times and your life standard sunk to 3rd world level, but look how eeeeeevil the system was I liberated you from".
Some historians were even specialized in manipulation of historical data during the 90s, to name some names: Nikolay Svanidze who held an infamous TV-history-show where he claimed that over 20Mln died in Gulag (10 times higher then archive sources) and Boris Sokolov (called soviet soldiers "mindless slaves", praised General Vlasov, and "calulated" that the kill ratio in WW2 was 10:1 in german favour (but failed to explain how germany could loose the war in this case)). Russian history views published in the 90s were even more anti-soviet then the current polish/baltic claims.

Who cares anyway? We're living in XXI century and we should really move on. Whole world is focused on fighting crisis and we should really stick to that both in Russia and Eastern Europe instead of pointlessly fighting over history of USSR. We've got our view (Stalin BAD) you got yours (Stalin cool). Let it be like that.Simplistic world view like "BAD" and "Cool" are attributes of child shows and politician speeches. Sovietunion owes Stalin murder of millions but also the industrialization and modernization of the country (which saved millions). Both are historical facts about his person and can't be reduced to such simplistic judgements.

However some people with a special political agenda appear to believe that Stalin was not evil enough, so they inflate those numbers beyond any archival data and twist facts. Those are not only baltics and poles but also certain interest groups in russian government, which are at least currenly not in power like they were during the 90s. In some countries it is used to fund the national self-consciousness (recent example: Ukrainain leadership claiming the all-soviet famine 1933 being a deliberate genocide directed on ukrrainians despite the highest death ratio during this famine was in North Kazakhstan and Southern Russia was heavy affected as well).

The point is that soviet history is currently treated with a political instead of scientific approach, which produce that magnitude of "Poland/Baltics vs. soviet history" threads.

Sufficient

03-28-2009, 02:23 PM

Soviet Union did not want war.

Oh man, you should upgrade the history books in your shelf. Those old Soviet ones are horribly obsolete. Here's something for you to start with for upgrading your knowledge to the 21st century level:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact

Also that is interesting. Twenty years these countries are free and independent but they have huge political and economic problems. Simple people live badly. Who is guilty? They are spoken by propagation - Russia. Surprisingly! Not their leaders! In all - Russia. For example in Ukraine. The country is independent twenty years but has such chaos and poverty.

Yeah... decades of occupation, mass killings of the intelligentsia and repression of the non-Russian national identity in the countries occupied is sure easy to repair over night.

Just as a sidenote - MZKT, your otherwise balanced post is invalidated by one blatant lie - namely it can easily be proven that NKVD cooperated with Gestapo, it can be verified by any literate person because there exist protocols from common conference held in 1940 in Cracow. Want to read it in Russian? In brief period when Russian press was free it was published in periodic ""Nova i Novieyshaya Istoriya"(?), no 5, 1995. According to various sources there were more conferences like that held in Brest, Zakopane and Przemysl. Sorry for dispelling your illusions :oops:.

I just watched the Polish movie Katyn. Very good movie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWPIleYTjB4

It got me thinking how the Germans could not know anything about the massacre until several years later. I read up on it though. Apparently there was a company within NKVD doing "black work" led by NKVD's chief executioner Vasili Blokhin. Every one in the company had Stalin's personal approval, took orders only from him and worked under the highest level of secrecy (unlike local NKVD units). I guess that company explains how even mass operations like Katyn could be kept secret even from the Germans. Because the Germans did get honestly surprised by the Katyn find a couple of years later. Propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels writes about it in his diary immediately understanding how it could be used as a great example of "this is what will happen to Europe if we lose the war".

Blokhin by the way is probably the most prolific official executioner in recorded world history. He personally killed more than 6,000 Poles in Katyn and several thousand more during his 26 year career in NKVD (including two of the top NKVD chiefs that had fallen from power): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Blokhin

KoTeMoRe

03-28-2009, 02:27 PM

Oh oh ... Gestapo + NKVD...it is here again. Do you know that the said document has been used a litteral evidence at several seminairs and courses in at least 3 Belgian universities until 2006...

So what can I say more.

Hast2

03-28-2009, 02:30 PM

repression of the non-Russian national identity

Crap.

123456

Hast2

03-28-2009, 02:38 PM

I'm an ethnic Moldavian and lived through hardcore Soviet times, i was never f.....g repressed. We even had schools for Russians AND Moldavian and Russians studied the Moldavian language as well as Moldavian people studied Russian.

Stupid forum retards.

California Joe

03-28-2009, 04:52 PM

The only reason this thread is still open is to herd all of you delusional knuckleheads into one thread. Christ, the posting of facts by one side is enough for the other side to fill up my inbox with claims of "Flame Bait". I don't have a goddamned degree in ancient Baltic or Russian History, if I did most of you would be banned for excessive fanboyism.

Sometimes the nationalism on here borders on pathological.

We don't have the time, nor the inclination to babysit people that hate each other or investigate every claim from "Stalin was a misunderstood nice guy, honest" to "Sure we had an SS division, but we didn't actually kill anyone", "They started it", "No, they did."

Tighten the f*ck up.

serg123

03-28-2009, 05:11 PM

Oh man, you should upgrade the history books in your shelf. Those old Soviet ones are horribly obsolete. Here's something for you to start with for upgrading your knowledge to the 21st century level:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact

It is better read nor books or wiki but original documents. After learning stenography of meetings UK+France delegation with USSR government and then diplomatic correspondence during that time (Moscow, Paris, London, Berlin) I think that this Pact was a big success of Soviet foreign policy. Without that Pact USSR could be defeted by Germany.

Eye

03-28-2009, 05:17 PM

Without that Pact USSR could be defeted by Germany.
Without that Pact WW2 didn't start or it would be started by USSR on its own few years later.

serg123

03-28-2009, 05:50 PM

Without that Pact WW2 didn't start or it would be started by USSR on its own few years later.
German agression against Poland were inevitable. Decision were made by Germany before Pact was signed. Actually Pact was proposed by USSR after it become clear that UK, France and Poland were not interested to build mutual security system with USSR in Europe.

Sufficient

03-28-2009, 06:13 PM

German agression against Poland were inevitable. Decision were made by Germany before Pact was signed. Actually Pact was proposed by USSR after it become clear that UK, France and Poland were not interested to build mutual security system with USSR in Europe.

Of course, now you are trying to ignore the occupation of the Baltic states 1939 and the aggression against Finland. This changed the European map, changed the Soviet sphere of influence as it got closer to the Baltic Sea, and also made clear to Germany that Soviet Union was an aggressive threat that had to be dealt with.

Eye

03-28-2009, 06:34 PM

German agression against Poland were inevitable. Decision were made by Germany before Pact was signed.
Maybe, but there was a chance to force back Germany - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Bridgehead

Moreover, I don't think Hitler would have risked two fronts war without USSR help. After september 17 any action in the west would have had no sense.

MZKT

03-28-2009, 07:08 PM

1234567890

MZKT

03-28-2009, 07:11 PM

Without that Pact WW2 didn't start or it would be started by USSR on its own few years later.

Hitler made already in My Kampf that he wants more the just Germany.
BTW With the same argumentation you can say that without the Munich Agreement 1938 (which the SU opposed, but western countries signed) wouldn't start.

Moreover, I don't think Hitler would have risked two fronts war without USSR help.He did it 1941. He started a sesond front against SU obviuosly without counting on it's help.

After september 17 any action in the west would have had no sense.Why that? Did the soviets relieved german divisions in german occupied Poland? Western allies continued their passivity because they didn't wanted to risk a full-scale war with Germany just because of their pact with Poland and hoped to settle peacefully with Hitler.

I find it strange that Russians lecture the Baltics on Nazi collaboration.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/MolotovRibbentropStalin.jpg

Not stranger then the west lecture russians on nazi collaboration. Or poles when speaking about czech province Zaolzie 1938

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3025/bundesarchivbild183r691.jpg (http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bundesarchivbild183r691.jpg)

KoTeMoRe

03-28-2009, 07:25 PM

Hitler made already in My Kampf that he wants more the just Germany.
BTW With the same argumentation you can say that without the Munich Agreement 1938 (which the SU opposed, but western countries signed) wouldn't start.

He did it 1941. He started a sesond front against SU obviuosly without counting on it's help.

Why that? Did the soviets relieved german divisions in german occupied Poland? Western allies continued their passivity because they didn't wanted to risk a full-scale war with Germany just because of their pact with Poland and hoped to settle peacefully with Hitler.

Not stranger then the west lecture russians on nazi collaboration. Or poles when speaking about czech province Zaolzie 1938

Where is the Rumsfeld picture?

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm156/Wolfspirit1953/hitler-rumsfeld.jpg

:roll:...come on people fart a bit and have a couple of drinks...

serg123

03-28-2009, 08:15 PM

Of course, now you are trying to ignore the occupation of the Baltic states 1939 and the aggression against Finland. This changed the European map, changed the Soviet sphere of influence as it got closer to the Baltic Sea, and also made clear to Germany that Soviet Union was an aggressive threat that had to be dealt with.

Wrong. Annexation of Baltic countries took place in 1940 in observation of France capitulation. Finland got suggestion to exchange territories with USSR and to rent military base. After it refused USSSR got it by force. That time it was already obvious for Stalin that war with Germany inevitable although he thought that it will start in 1942.

You can't expect gentleman like behaviour from major players when WW2 already started. Brits with soviets occupied Iran in 1941 just to get better strategic position and to protect logistic paths.

Moving its border to the west USSR achived better strategic position for coming war. As a result in particular it got enough time to organize defence of St. Petersburg and as a result Moscow were not surrended to Germans.

serg123

03-28-2009, 08:29 PM

Maybe, but there was a chance to force back Germany - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Bridgehead

Moreover, I don't think Hitler would have risked two fronts war without USSR help. After september 17 any action in the west would have had no sense.
Not "Maybe". Directives for agression against Poland was signed by Hitler on 11 April 1939. According directives German forces should be ready to invade Poland at any time starting 1 of September. In April there were no ideas about Pact which was proposed by USSR in August and signed 23 of August.

There were at least two chances to stop Germany. First in 1938 in Chehoslovakia and second in 1939 in Poland. It was interesting to read stenography of negotiations of USSR and UK+France envoys in Moscow in 1939 when Voroshilov asked them about why in 1938 when USSR was ready to start war with Germany to protect Chehoslovakia UK and France decided to give up Chehoslovakia. They had nothing clear to answer.

Since 1938 for more than a year USSR tried to sign military Pact with UK and France to fight Germany if Germany will commit agression against other countries. France and especially UK showed no real interest for such Pact delaying negotiations in all possible ways. They refused to provide guaranties for Baltic countries in the same time asking Soviet garanties to Poland. In addition Poland refused to provide corridor for Soviet troops to fight Germany in case if it become necessary. All this created impression in USSR that west just wants to tunnel German agression toward USSR. Finaly UK and France envoys arrived in Moscow in August 1939 even not having credentials to sign any agreement with USSR government. It was second lost chance.

widi243

03-28-2009, 08:37 PM

Some of my familiy perished in Stalins genoside during the 30's

Stalin is baaad

He is dead :roll:

serg123

03-28-2009, 09:10 PM

Not stranger then the west lecture russians on nazi collaboration.
Collaboration is the cooperation with occupying force. Problem is not in collaboration itself. There were collaborators in any country occupied by Nazis. The problem is that in Baltic countries and in Ukraine Nazi collaborators are considered by official propaganda as heroes today.

Recall Peten in France. He got death sentence in 1945 as collaborator although he was national hero since WW1.

Flamming_Python

03-28-2009, 10:11 PM

CPL Trevoga

03-28-2009, 10:25 PM

I just watched Katyn movie. It was very disturbing.

MZKT

03-28-2009, 10:52 PM

My impression, or at least what I heard about Vlasov's ROA, is that they were not exactly traitors by choice. During one of his battles, his entire army was encircled, and upon hearing this Stalin declared Vlasov, his army and everyone who composed it to be 'traitors of the people', meaning that even if they were to escape encirclement, they would still all be executed. It was after this action that the army changed sides to that of the Germans. Needless to say; Stalin did not ever make the mistake of declaring an entire army as traitors ever again.

How much truth is there to this?

ROA was founded end of 1944, no soviet army-size unit became encricled since 1943. Further ROA was founded from russian POWs which already were in german captivity, there was never a case of an army changing sides.

How much truth is there to this? -> Zero.
But I bet the story can be traced back to Sokolov, he is infamous for his Vlasov praising. Another heritage of the 90s. Especially funny was how he defended "patriot Vlasov's" murder of polish civilians and at the same time cursed Stalin for hanging this bastard.

asch

03-28-2009, 11:09 PM

omghihi

03-29-2009, 03:54 AM

Collaboration is the cooperation with occupying force. Problem is not in collaboration itself. There were collaborators in any country occupied by Nazis. The problem is that in Baltic countries and in Ukraine Nazi collaborators are considered by official propaganda as heroes today.

Recall Peten in France. He got death sentence in 1945 as collaborator although he was national hero since WW1.

for us the people who collaborated with USSR are not heroes anymore, as they are/were against our state, propped up by a foreign power. as the example of Petain shows, they are never too old to be prosecuted. latest case here being Arnold Meri, who died just two days ago.

kosse

03-29-2009, 04:01 AM

latest case here being Arnold Meri, who died just two days ago.

This guy was involved in deportation of Estonians to Siberia and Medvedev immediately grants him some kind of medal posthumously. Pretty tasteless move if you ask me..

Eye

03-29-2009, 05:33 AM

BTW With the same argumentation you can say that without the Munich Agreement 1938 (which the SU opposed, but western countries signed) wouldn't start.
Yes. It was encouragement for Germany.

He did it 1941. He started a sesond front against SU obviuosly without counting on it's help.
There were two possibilities. Germany attacks USSR or USSR attacks Germany. Hitler preferred to be first.

Why that? Did the soviets relieved german divisions in german occupied Poland? Western allies continued their passivity because they didn't wanted to risk a full-scale war with Germany just because of their pact with Poland and hoped to settle peacefully with Hitler.
Yes, they relieved. They made defence on Romanian Bridgehead impossible. They accelerate Polish defeat.

Eye

03-29-2009, 05:39 AM

The problem is that in Baltic countries and in Ukraine Nazi collaborators are considered by official propaganda as heroes today.

Recall Peten in France. He got death sentence in 1945 as collaborator although he was national hero since WW1.
So, why do you apologize the USSR? Why don't you admit that it was criminal system? Why don't you pursue soviet criminals? You even have not admitted "Katyń" was a genocide, not to mentioned about others, less "famous" crimes.

serg123

03-29-2009, 05:57 AM

for us the people who collaborated with USSR are not heroes anymore, as they are/were against our state, propped up by a foreign power. as the example of Petain shows, they are never too old to be prosecuted. latest case here being Arnold Meri, who died just two days ago.
He-he. Of coarse Nazis were dieing to support independence of Estonia, so that's why Nazis collaborators deserve hero status and marching every year on capitals' main streets. :-)

Interesting that after annexation of baltic countries their militaries were not even dismissed. They were just incorporated to Red Army as local units. Significant part of population supported joining USSR since they didn't know opressive nature of Stalin's regime. In the same time previous regimes in Baltic countries were not beacons of democracy.

User_Name

03-29-2009, 06:03 AM

So, why do you apologize the USSR? Why don't you admit that it was criminal system? Why don't you pursue soviet criminals? You even have not admitted "Katyń" was a genocide, not to mentioned about others, less "famous" crimes.

I see that you dont get it, Katyn was no genocide, it was execution of polish officers and soldiers who caused danger to Soviet Union, and to make clear for you a payback for those soviet soldiers, who died in polish custody in 20ties.
Look in the mirror first, our white knight on a pegasus. Having an ugly face your self, do not call others ugly!!!

peter.pl

03-29-2009, 06:09 AM

serg123

03-29-2009, 06:38 AM

This guy was involved in deportation of Estonians to Siberia and Medvedev immediately grants him some kind of medal posthumously. Pretty tasteless move if you ask me..
This guy got status of SU Hero for fighting Nazis in July 1941 when after getting four injures he continued fighting. Medal from Medvedev is the sign of respect to that status.

As for deportation it is always tragedy for those who deported. But take another example. Several millions germans were deported after WW2 from Romania, Yugoslavia, Hungury, Poland, Chechoslovakia etc. Only from Chehoslovakia 3 mln germans were deported. According german sources 10,000 German POWs were killed by Chechs in May 1945. During deportation more than 5,000 german civilians were killed and 13,000 died for other reasons. Have you heard about any panishment for those who were involved in that deportation?

serg123

03-29-2009, 06:54 AM

So, why do you apologize the USSR? Why don't you admit that it was criminal system? Why don't you pursue soviet criminals? You even have not admitted "Katyń" was a genocide, not to mentioned about others, less "famous" crimes.
Apologize for what? For not making Heroes from Nazis collaborants?

USSR was not a system it was a country. What you mean as soviet criminals? Katyn was not a genocide - just read definition of this term by UN. Killing 60,000 of Polish jewish POWs by Nazis was genocide. But it seems that you don't have any complains to Germany in oppose to Russia.

serg123

03-29-2009, 07:01 AM

I see that you dont get it, Katyn was no genocide, it was execution of polish officers and soldiers who caused danger to Soviet Union, and to make clear for you a payback for those soviet soldiers, who died in polish custody in 20ties.
Look in the mirror first, our white knight on a pegasus. Having an ugly face your self, do not call others ugly!!!
Polish officers and soldiers were not big danger to Soviet Union. 90% of Polish POWs were just allowed to go home. Killing POWs is a criminal act anyway, so Beria and Stalin took personal responsibility for that.

serg123

03-29-2009, 07:16 AM

If I will kill your mother that mean you can kill main ???? Thinking of animal not human. And your POWs in 1920 don't want to go back to SU, why ? because you will kill your own soldiers :roll: And a lot of them were sick... Why ? Because you had no logistic, you doesn't care of your soldiers in 1920, for you that was mass of stupid people wich will fight for great socialistic country :roll: Of course some of them were killed but no 20 000 like in Katyn :roll:
I don't agree with each your statemt. Actually much more than 20,000 Red Army POWs died in Poland. In the same time I agree with contex that there is a difference between allowing POWs to die due to poor conditions in POW camps and deliberate execution of POWs. Katyn is defenitely crime act of Stalin's regime.

omghihi

03-29-2009, 07:16 AM

He-he. Of coarse Nazis were dieing to support independence of Estonia, so that's why Nazis collaborators deserve hero status and marching every year on capitals' main streets. :-)

Interesting that after annexation of baltic countries their militaries were not even dismissed. They were just incorporated to Red Army as local units. Significant part of population supported joining USSR since they didn't know opressive nature of Stalin's regime. In the same time previous regimes in Baltic countries were not beacons of democracy.

afaik only estonian unit formed into armies of USSR was the 8th rifle corps which consisted of estonians conscripted in 1940, after a number of them defected they included a large amount of russians and russian estonians in it to prevent such things from happening again.

it took a lot of effort to squeeze out the permission from germans to form our own fighting units, due to Hitler and the army leaders here not seeing things the same way. and even then mobilization did not go smoothly at first because it did not have the support of our national leaders or the people at that time. even more so because the germans had not restored our independence. up to mid 1950s people hoped for a new war breaking out between western allies and USSR, hence the resistance in the forests. Of 20th SS, some ended up on that picture included down there ._. that's right, the ones with white helmets. some signed up with U.S. army and later took part of korean and vietnam wars.

Bolt

03-29-2009, 07:30 AM

We get it, omghihi, you guys liked to backstab and turn the guns against your former allies, no need to repeat things twice.

serg123

03-29-2009, 07:34 AM

afaik only estonian unit formed into armies of USSR was the 8th rifle corps which consisted of estonians conscripted in 1940, after a number of them defected they included a large amount of russians and russian estonians in it to prevent such things from happening again.

it took a lot of effort to squeeze out the permission from germans to form our own fighting units, due to Hitler and the army leaders here not seeing things the same way. and even then mobilization did not go smoothly at first because it did not have the support of our national leaders or the people at that time. even more so because the germans had not restored our independence. up to mid 1950s people hoped for a new war breaking out between western allies and USSR, hence the resistance in the forests. Of 20th SS, some ended up on that picture included down there ._. that's right, the ones with white helmets. some signed up with U.S. army and later took part of korean and vietnam wars.
I don't want to go in details, since I am busy man. Just one remark. People in white helmets on the photo are from US military police. It is just another example of Baltic propaganda. They mix international Nurnberg tribunal and tribunal of US occupation zone.

omghihi

03-29-2009, 07:43 AM

We get it, omghihi, you guys liked to backstab and turn the guns against your former allies, no need to repeat things twice.

yeah, the kind of allies that destroy your independence, reprint school textbooks, conscript you into their forces, send you to do hard labor where a lot die off, in middle of nowhere and then expect you to fight for them.

the most sympathetic foreign country in 1930s and even during WWII was GB. but sadly they were nowhere to be heard or seen, guess they were busy themselves.

I don't want to go in details, since I am busy man. Just one remark. People in white helmets on the photo are from US military police. It is just another example of Baltic propaganda. They mix international Nurnberg tribunal and tribunal of US occupation zone.Estonian Guard Co. 4221 had plenty to do with Nuremburg.

Eye

03-29-2009, 08:04 AM

Several millions germans were deported after WW2 from Romania, Yugoslavia, Hungury, Poland, Chechoslovakia etc. .... Have you heard about any panishment for those who were involved in that deportation?

Those deportations were decided not by govs of above countries, but by "great trio".
Yes, people responsible for communistic crimes are pursued in Poland (at least in theory).

But it seems that you don't have any complains to Germany in oppose to Russia.
They admitted to their crimes and pursued their nazi criminals. I didn't heart about any communistic criminals pursued after Stalin's rules or after USSR collapse made in Russia due to committed crimes and not due to political reasons.

serg123

03-29-2009, 08:29 AM

Estonian Guard Co. 4221 had plenty to do with Nuremburg.
Labour Service Company 4221 has nothing to do with international tribunal in Nurnberg.

Flamming_Python

03-29-2009, 08:30 AM

omghihi

03-29-2009, 08:59 AM

Labour Service Company 4221 has nothing to do with international tribunal in Nurnberg.

the point stands, western allies were the preferred side of the conflict.

serg123

03-29-2009, 09:01 AM

Those deportations were decided not by govs of above countries, but by "great trio".

Wrong. "Great trio" just allowed it. Deportation from Chechoslovakia for example was directly ordered by Prezident Benesh.

Yes, people responsible for communistic crimes are pursued in Poland (at least in theory).

Can you provide one example for last 20 years when anybody in Poland was pursued for involvement in germans deportation after WW2.

They admitted to their crimes and pursued their nazi criminals. I didn't heart about any communistic criminals pursued after Stalin's rules or after USSR collapse made in Russia due to committed crimes and not due to political reasons.
[/quote]
There are not such categories of crime in Russian law like communistic crime, atheistic crime, catholic crime, etc. Please, be more specific.

Have you heard that "communistic criminals" were pursued in Ukraine or Georgia? Georgia is the only country having Stalin museum.

ilmakas

03-29-2009, 09:05 AM

Here's the deal; I couldn't care less about Stalin, he won the war and I have nothing but respect for that, but like many Russians my family also suffered under him. I regret his execution of Estonians/Polish/whoever; but I don't see it as my responsibility or the responsibility of my people, any more than you see the Russians that he killed as the responsibility of Estonia/Poland/whoever.

agreed

Yet for my part, I sincerely regret the fall of the USSR and wish it didn't happen. How can this be?

The answer is that it has nothing to do with what happened 60 years ago. Nothing has anything to do with what happened 60 years ago. Going into history like some of you jokers are doing is just nationalism at its worst. And the problem I have with you guys is that I love my country, but you wish it the worst.

but this I don't understand. How can anyone miss that failed regime, do you miss the long lines when suddenly some "deficite" good arrived, living in an isolated world where info coming from outside the union was controlled, getting out of the country was very difficult, despite its name there was still no equality - party nomenklatura and black market dealers lived the good life (not by western standards) and the rest had to work the system to make life livable (apartment, car and telephone waiting lines, even if you got the car permit cars were very expensive). I remember watching satellite tv in the late 80's and how the life in the west was, there was no question in my mind to which world I wanted to belong. And then for us inthe Baltics was the question of wanting our independence back.

And no, no one is wishing Russia the worst quite the opposite actually. I wish the best for all our regions countries - neighbours' success has tendencies to spread beyond its borders. But do try to understand this - you are wishing the worst for my country when you wish that USSR hadn't collapsed.

Eye

03-29-2009, 10:16 AM

Can you provide one example for last 20 years when anybody in Poland was pursued for involvement in germans deportation after WW2.

One example:
Salomon Morel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salomon_Morel) was pursued, but unfortunately he escaped to Israel. He was commandant of camp "Zgoda" were mostly Germans were kept.

Yet for my part, I sincerely regret the fall of the USSR and wish it didn't happen. How can this be?

The answer is that it has nothing to do with what happened 60 years ago. Nothing has anything to do with what happened 60 years ago. Going into history like some of you jokers are doing is just nationalism at its worst. And the problem I have with you guys is that I love my country, but you wish it the worst.

I can understand that you love Russia (even when you don't live there), but USSR? I love Poland, but I never loved PRL. It was just a disaster and lost time.

Switek

03-29-2009, 10:25 AM

Bolt

03-29-2009, 12:45 PM

yeah, the kind of allies that destroy your independence, reprint school textbooks, conscript you into their forces, send you to do hard labor where a lot die off, in middle of nowhere and then expect you to fight for them.

Erm, I was talking about your beloved Nibelungs - your guys formed Legions to volunteerelly fight together with them, but when it became clear Reich is pretty much screwed, they switched sides. Are you seriously proud of this?

peter.pl

03-29-2009, 12:55 PM

Katyn is defenitely crime act of Stalin's regime.
I'm happy, because I found another Russian member wich can say something with sense and know behavior of discusion :)

Hast2

03-29-2009, 12:59 PM

No one is blaming living Russians for mass communist (Stalinist) murders and acts of genocide (expect those who were directly involved). I really can not get one thing why so many Russians here still defended so many obvious hostile acts done by soviet regimes and don't see the fact that Russians were victims of communism rules in USSR themselves.

No one is denying or defending anything... Can you give an example ?

The problem, as i see it, is :

"Yeah, hell a lot of soviet POWs died in Poland, but..."
"Yeah, we invaded Czechoslovakia with silence agreement of Germans, but..."
"Yeah, we had collaborators ans SS divisions, but..."

Before people start to blame someone, they should take full responsibilities of their own actions. There's no "but".

peter.pl

03-29-2009, 01:07 PM

Yeah, hell a lot of soviet POWs died in Poland, but...
Any prouf of executions of SUs POWs ? No ?

Yeah, we invaded Czechoslovakia with silence agreement of Germans, but
We had border war with Czechoslovakia since 1918, hell a lot time before 1933, yeah ?

Yeah, we had collaborators ans SS divisions, but
Poland had not units in German army so I think you were talking to someone else :)

serg123

03-29-2009, 01:14 PM

One example:
Salomon Morel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salomon_Morel) was pursued, but unfortunately he escaped to Israel. He was commandant of camp "Zgoda" were mostly Germans were kept.

This guy is accused in killing 1500 people in camp. This case is not related to deportation.

Hast2

03-29-2009, 01:15 PM

Any prouf of executions of SUs POWs ? No ?

We had border war with Czechoslovakia since 1918, hell a lot time before 1933, yeah ?

Poland had not units in German army so I think you were talking to someone else :)

You see what i'm talking about :)

P.S Not you, Baltics.

kalkun

03-29-2009, 01:15 PM

He-he. Of coarse Nazis were dieing to support independence of Estonia, so that's why Nazis collaborators deserve hero status and marching every year on capitals' main streets. :-)

You know it's really tiring already with all the Nazi supporting accusation.
What sort of benefits do veterans who fought in German uniform get?
Who has given them hero status?Estonian government??? What sort of monuments has Estonian government set up for them?
Marching every year on capitals main street? O RLY??

Switek

03-29-2009, 01:28 PM

No one is denying or defending anything... Can you give an example ?

The problem, as i see it, is :

"Yeah, hell a lot of soviet POWs died in Poland, but..."

No one deny that death rate of soviet POW in prisoner camps was about 18-20% (what was "norm" - whatever it sounds - those times) couse of natural reasons. Poland was not prepared for so many POWs during Polish-Bolshevik war.

"Yeah, we invaded Czechoslovakia with silence agreement of Germans, but..."

Yes we invaded Zaolzie what was a stupid and not necessary act of aggression. Even if current Czechoslovak government accepted this. We do not deny it.

"Yeah, we had collaborators ans SS divisions, but..."

No, we had not. The problem of Poles is that we did not had institutional collaboration with Nazis like many other occupied countries during WW2. There was no single (oh may be one Polish Wehrmacht battalion - but still not confirmed, yet) Polish military unit volunteer unit fighting for Germans in WW2

Before people start to blame someone, they should take full responsibilities of their own actions. There's no "but".

We discuss our (sometimes difficult and dirty) history in media and we have opportunity to find out a truth behind some post communist and nationalistic myths...

The problem, as i see it, is :

you're just trolling my friend

Hast2

03-29-2009, 01:37 PM

No one deny that death rate of soviet POW in prisoner camps was about 18-20% (what was "norm" - whatever it sounds - those times) couse of natural reasons. Poland was not prepared for so many POWs during Polish-Bolshevik war.

Yes we invaded Zaolzie what was a stupid and not necessary act of aggression. Even if current Czechoslovak government accepted this. We do not deny it.

No, we had not. The problem of Poles is that we did not had institutional collaboration with Nazis like many other occupied countries during WW2. There was no single (oh may be one Polish Wehrmacht battalion - but still not confirmed, yet) Polish military unit volunteer unit fighting for Germans in WW2

We discuss our (sometimes difficult and dirty) history in media and we have opportunity to find out a truth behind some post communist and nationalistic myths...

you're just trolling my friend

Well, that's much better.

"collaborators and SS divisions" - i'm talking about Baltic states, should made that clear, sorry.

"We discuss our (sometimes difficult and dirty) history in media and we have opportunity to find out a truth behind some post communist and nationalistic myths..." - yes, but only if both sides actually listen each other.

"you're just trolling my friend"

Report me:)

Switek

03-29-2009, 02:01 PM

...

"collaborators and SS divisions" - i'm talking about Baltic states, should made that clear, sorry. ...

I can not speak for Estonians or Latvians... Their collaborations with Nazis makes me sick and I believe that many of them understand it was wrong. Nothing to be proud about. But in the same nations there were many volunteers who collaborated with Commies and were in Red Army and installed ne power in 1944/45. This is classic "pizdiet" dilemma. Small nations torn apart between two totalitarian powers at war. I hope they will learn soon that collaboration with Nazis were absolutely wrong. Even if many young Baltic volunteers vital motivation wasn't to fight for Hitler but against Bolsheviks doesn't change the fact their made German war machine little bit more effective.

"you're just trolling my friend"

Report me:)

What wet dream! p-)

BTW. Hast, do know the scale of Russian collaboration during WW2?

peter.pl

03-29-2009, 02:06 PM

What about Latvian nazi troops. In my region they are see worst then Germans. In Majdanek camp in crew were 600 Latvians and they were seen like animals or like beasts. Reips, murders of civilians etc. For me is impossible to say anything good about them :roll:

Sufficient

03-29-2009, 02:07 PM

This is classic "pizdiet" dilemma. Small nations torn apart between two totalitarian powers at war. I hope they will learn soon that collaboration with Nazis were absolutely wrong.

I doubt they will "learn" that. I know the menthality in Finland and no one is ashamed of the Waffenbruderschaft with Germany. Simply because, as you say, small nations were torn between the big ones and were forced to choose between cholera and the plague. Neither Poland, the Baltic states or Finland had the luxury of having the same georgraphic position as Sweden or Switzerland and could not stay out of the war.

Cholera or the plague? Well, Germany was seen as the lesser evil. By the way, what do you think of the Estonians that volunteered in the Finnish army and fought Soviet Union? Is that equally as bad?

Infantry Regiment 200 (Fin.: Jalkaväkirykmentti 200, JR 200), (Est: Jalaväerügement 200, JR 200) was a unit of the Finnish army during World War II made up mostly of Estonian volunteers, who preferred to serve in the Finnish armed forces instead of the armed forces of Germany or the Soviet Union.

[...]

Their motto was "For the freedom of Finland and the honour of Estonia".

[...]

On May 4, 1944, there were 1,973 Estonians and 361 Finns in Infantry Regiment 200, including 67 officers and 165 non-commissioned officers. The regiment took part in the defensive battles of summer 1944 on the Finnish front. They were sent to the front, on June 10 1944, as part of the Finnish 10th Division, and they took up positions around the Bay of Viipuri. The regiment became known as "The Finnish boys" (Finnish: Suomen-pojat, Estonian: Soomepoisid).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Infantry_Regiment_200

Hast2

03-29-2009, 02:26 PM

BTW. Hast, do know the scale of Russian collaboration during WW2?

I do and i don't deny it. I don't deny any Stallin's atrocity neither, as i said before, it was criminal, tyrannic, brutal regime.

What i'm denying is the pure propaganda claims like "Ukrainian Genocide", "100 million victims of communism(:|)", "Soviets(aka Russians for some)repressed national identity", and so on. Simply not true.

Switek

03-29-2009, 02:48 PM

I do and i don't deny it. I don't deny any Stallin's atrocity neither, as i said before, it was criminal, tyrannic, brutal regime.

What i'm denying is the pure propaganda claims like "Ukrainian Genocide", "100 million victims of communism(:|)", "Soviets(aka Russians for some)repressed national identity", and so on. Simply not true.

"100 million victims of communism(:|)"

They should be counted worldwide. The number do not covers USSR itself. Some countries in Asia had quite big involvement in this...

Red_Rage

03-29-2009, 03:36 PM

"100 million victims of communism(:|)"

They should be counted worldwide. The number do not covers USSR itself. Some countries in Asia had quite big involvement in this...

Then it should be labeled Victims of personality cults, not communism. USSR had little in common with Mao's China, or organizations like Khimer Rouge. Only common ground was that they happened in the same period of history.

Post Stalinist USSR was openly opposed to China, with armed confrontations happening throughout the '60s.

Eye

03-29-2009, 03:38 PM

This guy is accused in killing 1500 people in camp. This case is not related to deportation.
I don't think deportation from soviet zone to e.g. US zone was a crime. It was rather a kind of favour in contrast to deportation from Poland to Siberia. I would prefer to live in West Berlin than in Siberia if I had to chose. The achieving Siberia alive was a success. Deported travelled there in "not very comfortable" conditions with children, elders pregnant women etc.
Many people of German origin asked for permission for "deportation" to West Germany long time after WW2. I didn't hear about anybody who asked for deportation to Siberia.
Of course some commandants of transfer camps who committed crimes are pursued. Here is another one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czes%C5%82aw_G%C4%99borski

LineDoggie

03-29-2009, 04:38 PM

Of 20th SS, some ended up on that picture included down there ._. that's right, the ones with white helmets. some signed up with U.S. army Um, no.

Those are 1st Infantry Division MP's during the Nuremburg trials.

All the MP's were US Combat Veterans, most were Infantrymen before being seconded to the MP corps.

I can Guarantee you, no Former Waffen-SS or Wehrmacht , or their associated "Foreign Legions" Were members of that MP detachment pictured.

A Neighbor who was born in Brooklyn served in the Luftwaffe Field Divisions in WWII. Surrendered in Normandy, he was still in a POW camp at the time of this trial. He finally got into the USAF just prior to the Korean War, (to as he said, Repay his Debt for being on the wrong side in the last war).

serg123

03-29-2009, 05:14 PM

You know it's really tiring already with all the Nazi supporting accusation.
What sort of benefits do veterans who fought in German uniform get?
Who has given them hero status?Estonian government??? What sort of monuments has Estonian government set up for them?
Marching every year on capitals main street? O RLY??
I already mentioned that problem is not in Nazi support during WW2. All occupied nations had collaborators. Problem is in rehabilitation of that collaborators.

Benefits depends from country. Usually it is an extra pention compensations. Hero status is not related to any particular medal. Estonian prime-minister calls Waffen SS veterans heroes. Government officials (including prime-minister and MOD) are participating Waffen SS veterans meetings and ceremonies including opening monuments where those veterans rise flags of their SS units (I don't know if money for such monuments come from government as well).

Actually if soldgiers were forced to join Waffen SS and didn't commit war crime it is OK. Vast majority of captured Waffen SS privates and low rank officers were allowed to go home by NKVD. In the same time more than 30% were voluntaries including guys from local milicia responsible for jews ethnic cleansing and according Nurnberg Tribunal they are subject of criminal prosecution.

There is another Baltic propaganda trick. They usually claim that Waffen SS units were formed by mobilisation. But till 1944 Waffen SS was strictly voluntaries formation. In spring 1944 there were so called "labour mobilisation". But people had a choice to go to labour units, to go to local police or to go to Waffen SS. So those who choosed Waffen SS that time actually were voluntaries. Only autumn of 1944 real mobilisation took place.

MZKT

03-29-2009, 05:30 PM

There were two possibilities. Germany attacks USSR or USSR attacks Germany. Hitler preferred to be first.

Any proofs of USSR plans to attack Germany? Apart from Suvorov/Rezuns LessScience-MoreFiction books?

Yes, they relieved. They made defence on Romanian Bridgehead impossible. They accelerate Polish defeat.

the defense of romanian bridgehead was impossible already after the bulk of polish army was destroyed and the rest of units scattered and lost coordination. There is no way Poland could hold the germans off (even the far larger french army couldn't)

serg123

03-29-2009, 05:35 PM

No one deny that death rate of soviet POW in prisoner camps was about 18-20% (what was "norm" - whatever it sounds - those times) couse of natural reasons. Poland was not prepared for so many POWs during Polish-Bolshevik war.

This is actual death rate in GULAG year by year. You can see that 1942-43 were most difficult years when most USSR population starved war conditions.

Year Number Percentage

1930* 7980 4,2
1931* 7283 2,9
1932* 13197 4,8
1933* 67297 15,3
1934* 25187 4,28
1935** 31636 2,75
1936** 24993 2,11
1937** 31056 2,42
1938** 108654 5,35
1939***44750 3,1
1940 41275 2,72
1941 115484 6,1
1942 352560 24,9
1943 267826 22,4
1944 114481 9,2
1945 81917 5,95
1946 30715 2,2
1947 66830 3,59
1948 50659 2,28
1949 29350 1,21
1950 24511 0,95
1951 22466 0,92
1952 20643 0,84
1953****9628 0,67
1954 8358 0,69
1955 4842 0,53
1956 3164 0,4

MZKT

03-29-2009, 05:37 PM

"100 million victims of communism(:|)"

They should be counted worldwide. The number do not covers USSR itself. Some countries in Asia had quite big involvement in this...

the number is from Blackbook of communism. They used high-end estimates and some numbers were proven wrong after their publication (No indication of the claimed 50 Mln chinese death during the famine in the 60s found, soviet numbers were not taken from already open archives but from Solshenizyn's cold war claims).
I remeber the major critic about this book, was that when using their counting methods the Blackbook of Capitalism if ever written, would have produced higher numbers.

serg123

03-29-2009, 06:04 PM

"100 million victims of communism(:|)"

They should be counted worldwide. The number do not covers USSR itself. Some countries in Asia had quite big involvement in this...
It is not funny. Ukrainian Prez Yushenko gave interview where he claimed that Ukrainian nation is the only nation which population decreased in numbers from 81 mln in 1929 to 42 mln in 1979. He also told that 10-15 ukrainians died from great hunger in 1932-1933.

In the same time demographic statistic tells that by 1930 there were only 30 mln ukrainians in total. Some politicians having nationalistic agenda get really crazy trying to invent their own version of history. Then government invest money to put all this bulls**t in school books, and then few years later ukrainians will tell "it is obvious and wellknown that Russians killed 50% of Ukrainians".

Xaito

03-29-2009, 06:12 PM

"100 million victims of communism(:|)"

They should be counted worldwide. The number do not covers USSR itself. Some countries in Asia had quite big involvement in this...

In Soviet Russia during communist regime my father's dog was shot by his neighbor - that makes it 100000001 victims of communism, right?

KoTeMoRe

03-29-2009, 06:18 PM

In Soviet Russia during communist regime my father's dog was shot by his neighbor - that makes it 100000001 victims of communism, right?

Ha ha ha ha ...

Sufficient

03-29-2009, 06:46 PM

This is actual death rate in GULAG year by year

Hah, that's a gem. You don't happen to have a source for that per chance?

serg123

03-29-2009, 09:01 PM

Hah, that's a gem. You don't happen to have a source for that per chance?
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%A3%D0%9B%D0%90%D0%93

Switek

03-30-2009, 03:24 AM

In Soviet Russia during communist regime my father's dog was shot by his neighbor - that makes it 100000001 victims of communism, right?

Not funny... But it was quite often met such demoralized attitude during Great Purge and WW2 in Ghettos and concentration camps, when humans living were reduced to the animal level (or even below).

Joseph Stalin and Adolf Hitler would be proud of you...

Disgusting

asch

03-30-2009, 03:30 AM

Switek

03-30-2009, 03:34 AM

man, you sounds kinda like a ole good kommunist party press-release. really.

Couse I don't take childish jokes about victims? Well, my family members suffered too much thanks to Hitler and Stalin.

TakeIt

03-30-2009, 03:45 AM

Switek, really, better a childish jokes than outright stupidity and ignorance, especially when they shade the latter..

Eye

03-30-2009, 04:33 AM

In Soviet Russia during communist regime my father's dog was shot by his neighbor - that makes it 100000001 victims of communism, right?

It is the victim of communist regime in the same way like a dog of family murdered by nazi regime is a victim of genocide.

asch

03-30-2009, 05:01 AM

Couse I don't take childish jokes about victims? Well, my family members suffered too much thanks to Hitler and Stalin.
i, too have some grudge to mentioned persons and, of course, have a relatives who fell victims of Great Patriotic War, but i just got over it. you can't do yourself a good keeping acting in such way, it's all deeds of the past, and of societies of the past. we different now and can see things in a different way, but that not means that i must ended up pooping retarded confrontations with people who have different opinion.
chill, man.

TakeIt

03-30-2009, 05:07 AM

It is the victim of communist regime in the same way like a dog of family murdered by nazi regime is a victim of genocide.You know, speaking of dogs actually a german one was worth lives of more than 20 people, if i'm not mistaken..

Xaito

03-30-2009, 06:10 AM

Not funny... But it was quite often met such demoralized attitude during Great Purge and WW2 in Ghettos and concentration camps, when humans living were reduced to the animal level (or even below).

Joseph Stalin and Adolf Hitler would be proud of you...

Disgusting

wow Stalin AND Hitler both?
Switek you are Godwin's law in person - all you do in this thread is trying to tell everybody who doesn't see things your way that he is a Stalinist communism lover or worse.

I'm not joking about victims I'm joking about you and your ridiculous 100million victims figure.
This number is thought up by someone who wasn't interested in serious reflection on the topic - it's just a catchphrase like most of what you say here.
All the more funny you suggested that for your "victim of communism" award you need to count in the whole world - nobody's been counting - especially not the guy who came up with "100 million victims" - he just thought it's a nice, round, big number and claimed it to please people like you - the one's who want to hear and believe that - maybe he should have claimed 111million I bet you'd be even more pleased.

kalkun

03-30-2009, 08:18 AM

Benefits depends from country. Usually it is an extra pention compensations.:roll: Extra pensions and compensations? None in Estonia.

Estonian prime-minister calls Waffen SS veterans heroes. Government officials (including prime-minister and MOD) are participating Waffen SS veterans meetings and ceremonies including opening monuments where those veterans rise flags of their SS units (I don't know if money for such monuments come from government as well). What prime minister exactly called W-SS veterans heroes?
PM and MoD participate in veterans meetings and ceremonies? Totally BS

Vast majority of captured Waffen SS privates and low rank officers were allowed to go home by NKVD. Now that's simply ridiculous.

You added a pic of that monument that was in Lihula. Not funded or set up by Estonian government, in fact it was Estonian government that removed it with crane. You probably knew that, or not?

Eye

03-30-2009, 09:34 AM

All the more funny you suggested that for your "victim of communism" award you need to count in the whole world - nobody's been counting - ...
In the long term of observation everybody is dead. So we can assume that nobody is victim of anybody, because everybody will die anyhow.

domokun

03-30-2009, 10:29 AM

And so goes another chapter in the "Notme" societies Revision Dance.

Absolutely. Gypsum's avatar is right description of this thread. Truth is somewhere in middle of nationalistic circle jerks like this... it's not too pleasant for anyone.

Apparently, every single Russian was Held Captive for 70 years by a Collection of minorities of Foreign birth. These insidious Foreigners forced them to side with the Reich,Occupy the Baltic States, Invade Finland, then fight the Reich, Invade Finland again, then occupy the Baltic states again, all against their will. This immense struggle to throw off Foreign shackles was only won in the 1990's :roll:

They came from outer space... you know red planet... p-)

From Russian point of view unfortunately Soviet Union didn't liberate eastern Europe (from post-WWII historical/social point of view not geographical... includes Poland) but just occupied it... replacement occupier in middle of process doesn't change fact that it's still occupation. Even as Finn I think our politicians had fair share in invading again part... given context of those times fighting as co-belligent of Germans was kinda provoked by unprovoked (and ironically politically German backed) assault and occupation attempt in Winter War and plenty of border violations from Soviet side in interim peace. Yeah, we just waited for Soviet retaliation, for little help like naval pilot services to Kriegsmarine, refueling bases to Luftwaffe and little covert submarine mining ops, before giving orders to cross border.

Frankly, Holding Russians today responsible for the Kulak Liquidations, Purges, Katyn, and the rest is like Blaming todays Germans for the Somme in 1916, or Virginians for Slavery. It's history to be remembered for sure, but it aint gonna get you anywhere to blame people born 30+ years later.

Molotov-Ribbetropp pact and it's then secret parts makes Soviets too starters of WWII just like Germans, only difference is that Germans started war agaist western allies when Soviets didn't and Soviets won in the end. Both killed people, only difference is dellusion why mass murders were commited and victims selected.

Yeah, but Germans of course have collective responsibility of their fvcked up past governments. Modern Russia too should bear at least symbolic responsibility for their predecessors actions, including genocides or politicides in half of Europe including itself. Russia doesn't do like Germans do in acts of national redemption on regular intervals... they blame countries they occupied for not celbrating occupation. From ex-communist Europe they also should send diplomatic representations to victory day parades, but Russia too should ask for forgiveness when they have own days of mouning for national and human catastropies Soviet liberation and occupation of half century caused.

Still Soviet Union has flip side to insanely large amounts of human tragedies it caused.... it bought large parts of country from 1700's to 1900's literally, human cost was immense for all of who lived in under regime. Eastern Europe's occupation was horrible, but Soviets including Russians, Ukrainians... [insert rest of socialist republics here... too lazy list 'em all] even Georgians got even worse end of stick from Soviet Unions own government. Eastern Front was most brutal war in mankinds history, during it, before it and after it that Soviet civil war, purges from both nazi and soviet sides got insane dead toll. Soviet Union still improved live of it's citizens, excluding Baltics, greatly.

[in tune of the Soviet Anthem] "Oh great and mighty Soviet Union that graveyard of small and bigger nations...."

My Neighbor who was a Marine on Guadalcanal, Cape Gloucester, Okinawa etc. hated Japanese of his age group with a Passion till the day he died, but not the kids born 1942 onwards.

War gives bitter passion for hatred for some of veterans. Definitely doesn't sound uncommon for guy who fought them and most likely lost more than couple friends in meat grinders like landing battles were. I have known and met veterans WWII with more zen attitude what happened and veterans with even worse cases "Kill 'em all" attitudes over former enemies.

And on off topic flame war about Afghanistan, my two cents. Human disaster. Soviet occupation wasn't completely unprovoked, country was semi-modern instable and not too democratic at time. Afghanistan was more or less in verge of internal conflict between somewhat modern cities and barbaric tribal country side NATO is fighting agaist still. Western and Soviet power politics didn't help situation there much... reaction and counter reaction loop, like most of Cold Wars hot parts.

peter.pl

03-30-2009, 12:20 PM

Switek, really, better a childish jokes than outright stupidity and ignorance, especially when they shade the latter..

No, better both of you (Switek, TakIt) shut the **** up cause you are talking about serious things, not footbal game :roll: When I'm reading your posts I wish to teleporte to Mars, maybe I'll find there someone with minds :roll:

PS I made mistake. When I was writing about Latvians in Majdanek I was wrong, they were Lithuanians. Sorry, my faulse.

serg123

03-30-2009, 04:08 PM

I don't think deportation from soviet zone to e.g. US zone was a crime. It was rather a kind of favour in contrast to deportation from Poland to Siberia.
I would prefer to live in West Berlin than in Siberia if I had to chose.

Are you kidding? Do you really think that confiscating everything and deporting germans just because they were gemans in any way better than deporting poles just because they were Pilsudsky's legioners?

Deportations were ruled by local authorities - Benesh in Chechoslovakia and Bierut in Poland. About 10 mln germans were deported in Europe mostly from Poland and Chechoslovakia. According german sources about 1.3 mln were killed or died in concentration camps. Even more were injured and raped. In some Polish concentration camps death rate achieved 50% during 1945/46 winter. The fact is that many ordinary people in Poland and Chechoslovakia supported such atrocities against germans. "Great trio" did actually nothing to stop that.

What happened with germans in scale and number of victims exeeds all deportations organized by Stalin (since 1928 he orginised more than 50 deportation campaigns displacing about 6 mln people).

The achieving Siberia alive was a success. Deported travelled there in "not very comfortable" conditions with children, elders pregnant women etc.

I've read some memuars about accident during germans deportation from Poland. From more than 4000 people in one train only 1500 survived.

For deported poles conditions were same as for Red Army troops transportation that time. Each family could bring up to 500 kg of laggage. Problem was not to achive Siberia (NKVD had big experience in such operations and each train had a doctor) but to get proper accomodation there. Maximum death rate was among Pilsudsky's legioners (osadniks). During first 16 months after deportation 7.8% of them died. It is equvalent of 5.8% annual rate which is three times higher than natural death rate. Born rate in first year was about 3 times lower than death rate. Later many of poles were moved from Siberia to south regions including Sochi resort area. But I don't think they were happy about that. Like Polish germans were not happy to leave their hauses and run to destroyed Germany (epecially West Berlin).

Many people of German origin asked for permission for "deportation" to West Germany long time after WW2. I didn't hear about anybody who asked for deportation to Siberia.

I believe you know the difference between forced deportation and people's desire to live in other place. At this point you can ask yourself "why I am so negative regarding deportation of poles by USSR and in the same time try to find excuses for deportation of germans by Poland?".

serg123

03-30-2009, 04:55 PM

What prime minister exactly called W-SS veterans heroes?

Mr. Ansip in 2006 on veteran's meeting in Viru.

PM and MoD participate in veterans meetings and ceremonies? Totally BS

Estinian chief commander of ground forces opened monument in Tallin in september 2005. Monument was financed by government.

Estonian MOD participated ceremony of reburial of 20th W-SS division commander Rebane. Government payed 400,000 kron for that.

You added a pic of that monument that was in Lihula. Not funded or set up by Estonian government, in fact it was Estonian government that removed it with crane. You probably knew that, or not?
You probably know that later this monument was restored in Lagedi, and that there are several monuments memorizing W-SS in Estonia.

Eye

03-30-2009, 05:27 PM

Are you kidding? Do you really think that confiscating everything and deporting germans just because they were gemans in any way better than deporting poles just because they were Pilsudsky's legioners?

If I had to choose between living in communistic country or in my homeland, but without my property I would choose second possibility. Remember that Poles weren't deported to Poland, but far away from it.

Deportations were ruled by local authorities - Benesh in Chechoslovakia and Bierut in Poland.
Wrong. Bierut was an agent of NKVD and Poland wasn't independent in those days. Ministry of Public Security (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Public_Security_of_Poland) which conducted deportation was completely dependent from soviets.

"Great trio" did actually nothing to stop that. I think they did a lot to start it:

После окончательной победы советской армии Потсдамская конференция (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%81%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%84%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F), на которой произошла встреча лидеров СССР (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A0), США (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%A8%D0%90) и Великобритании (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F), фактически узаконила депортацию, однако призывала к возможно более гуманному её проведению(it's from Russian Wiki)
So they decided to do it, but admonished to do it delicately.

I've read some memuars about accident during germans deportation from Poland. From more than 4000 people in one train only 1500 survived.I spoke personally with people who survived, and they didn't see any doctor in the train. They were dying from freezing cold. Bodies were thrown of the train near settlements because they had hope that somebody would bury them.

Maximum death rate was among Pilsudsky's legioners (osadniks). During first 16 months after deportation 7.8% of them died. It is equvalent of 5.8% annual rate which is three times higher than natural death rate. Born rate in first year was about 3 times lower than death rate.Here we have a little bit different numbers:

In 1940 and the first half of 1941, the Soviets deported more than 1,200,000 Poles, most in four mass deportations. The first deportation took place February 10 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_10), 1940 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1940), with more than 220,000 sent to northern European Russia; the second on April 13 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_13), 1940 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1940), sending 320,000 primarily to Kazakhstan; a third wave in June-July 1940 totaled more than 240,000; the fourth occurred in June, 1941, deporting 300,000. Upon resumption of Polish-Soviet diplomatic relations in 1941, it was determined based on Soviet information that more than 760,000 of the deportees had died—a large part of those dead being children, who had comprised about a third of deportees.[45] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_repressions_of_Polish_citizens_%281939%E2%80%931946%29#cite_note-ACEN1ST-44).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_repressions_of_Polish_citizens_(1939%E2%80%931946) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_repressions_of_Polish_citizens_%281939%E2%80%931946%29)

At this point you can ask yourself "why I am so negative regarding deportation of poles by USSR and in the same time try to find excuses for deportation of germans by Poland?".Yes, it was tragedy too, but I don't think we can assume that it was made by Poland because Poland was actually under soviet occupation. We have to remember who started all that mess in 1939r. and it wasn't made by only one person - supporters of the NSDAP in nazi Germany:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/NSDAP_Wahl_1933.png/770px-NSDAP_Wahl_1933.png

Furthermore all alive communistic criminals from that period are pursued in Poland.
If such people from former NKVD are pursued in Russia I have not any more questions.

Flamming_Python

03-31-2009, 10:29 AM

but this I don't understand. How can anyone miss that failed regime, do you miss the long lines when suddenly some "deficite" good arrived, living in an isolated world where info coming from outside the union was controlled, getting out of the country was very difficult, despite its name there was still no equality - party nomenklatura and black market dealers lived the good life (not by western standards) and the rest had to work the system to make life livable (apartment, car and telephone waiting lines, even if you got the car permit cars were very expensive). I remember watching satellite tv in the late 80's and how the life in the west was, there was no question in my mind to which world I wanted to belong. And then for us inthe Baltics was the question of wanting our independence back.

There are a lot of factors, and not all of them are so materialistic. Like for instance the great growth in nationalism across the former-USSR, the rise of nazi-skinhead movements, brainwashed islamists in the caucasus, etc... All of this good have been avoided if the USSR hadn't collapsed as it did. Not to mention the great poverty, death, civil wars, ethnic conflicts, etc... that came in the immediate aftermath and to this day haven't been resolved. The Baltics were very lucky to have escaped most of this and to have had someone to help you out in the hard times.

And no, no one is wishing Russia the worst quite the opposite actually. I wish the best for all our regions countries - neighbours' success has tendencies to spread beyond its borders. But do try to understand this - you are wishing the worst for my country when you wish that USSR hadn't collapsed.

And you are wishing the worst for my country when you wished that the USSR had collapsed. Best thing would have been to let go the peoples that wanted to get out; life is too short to be in a prison house of nations.

IcyHot

03-31-2009, 10:44 AM

Russia keeps quiet because Stalin wos Georgian not Russian so this is not Russian problem.

Mr.K

03-31-2009, 04:37 PM

Russia keeps quiet because Stalin wos Georgian not Russian so this is not Russian problem.

Ok we're going in circles here.

lightfire

03-31-2009, 04:41 PM

Ok we're going in circles here.

always. look at the thread title and original post. How many times it happened?

Mr.K

03-31-2009, 04:52 PM

always. look at the thread title and original post. How many times it happened?

I can't stomach 24 pages of "Yes it is", "No it isn't" and "we got deported too!" claims.

serg123

04-01-2009, 04:20 AM

If I had to choose between living in communistic country or in my homeland, but without my property I would choose second possibility. Remember that Poles weren't deported to Poland, but far away from it.

So Stalin did nothing wrong when he confiscated land from successful farmers and sent them to Siberia. Farmers stayed in their homeland.

Wrong. Bierut was an agent of NKVD and Poland wasn't independent in those days. Ministry of Public Security (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Public_Security_of_Poland) which conducted deportation was completely dependent from soviets.

So Wisla operation for deportation of ukrainians from Poland was also planned by soviets and tens of thousands polish army troops were soviets. :-). I like this logic. Poland authorities were completely dependand from soviets, then soviets were completely dependent from NKVD and commies, then NKVD and commies were completely dependent from two georgian guys - Stalin and Beria. So please forward all your complains to Georgia.

I think they did a lot to start it:
(it's from Russian Wiki)
So they decided to do it, but admonished to do it delicately.

They decided to do that under pressure of Poland, Chechoslovakia, etc. Deportations were actually started before that decision. Poland confiscated all land of germans before "great trio" conference in Potsdam.

I spoke personally with people who survived, and they didn't see any doctor in the train. They were dying from freezing cold. Bodies were thrown of the train near settlements because they had hope that somebody would bury them.

I doubt that people you told to personaly saw all these things. Coatches were closed, so it was not possible to escape or throw body on the way. Missed people could be treated as escaped and NKVD convoy could get severe panishment for that. There are some documents regarding death rate during transportation (although not for all trains). For example during first wave of deportation in most severe wether conditions (February 1940) 4 trains arrived in most remote location in Irkutsk region. 5821 people were arrived. According NKVD convoy report - 1 escaped, 12 died, 26 got seek and were left in Railroad hospitals along the way.

Here we have a little bit different numbers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_repressions_of_Polish_citizens_(1939%E2%80%931946) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_repressions_of_Polish_citizens_%281939%E2%80%931946%29)

After NKVD archives were declassified there are no reason to speculate incorrect numbers (of coarse exept political reasons). It is known now that 211 trains were used for deportatin. For 17% of that trains per coatch names lists are available. It seems that you can read russian, so you can easily find information (for example on NGO Memorial site http://www.memo.ru/HISTORY/Polacy/G_1.htm , http://lib.pomorsu.ru/exile/Polska_ssylka/Gurjanow.doc , etc). Real numbers are several times less than your wiki source clames. Important that there were 3 categories of deported. One of category was refugies from West Poland (about 90% of them were jews). Probably it is more correct to call them as displaced people. History shows that they would not survive if they stay in Poland.

Yes, it was tragedy too, but I don't think we can assume that it was made by Poland because Poland was actually under soviet occupation. We have to remember who started all that mess in 1939r. and it wasn't made by only one person - supporters of the NSDAP in nazi Germany:

Your logic is a commie logic (public responsibility for personal crimes). Stalin also had a lot of evidence about "counter-revolution" activity of poles on annexed territories.

Furthermore all alive communistic criminals from that period are pursued in Poland.
If such people from former NKVD are pursued in Russia I have not any more questions.
I doubt that jew guy mentioned by you earlier and who killed 1500 germans in his concentration camp was a communist or received any instructions to kill from Kremlin. Don't simplify things.