Russia keeps quiet as Baltics remember Stalin’s deportations

[Dark-Angel25]

Russia keeps quiet as Baltics remember Stalin’s deportations



Flowers are placed in front of the Freedom monument in Riga, the Latvian capital, right, to commemorate the people who were deported to Siberia in 1949.
On the 60th anniversary of the start of the mass deportations carried out by the Soviet Union under Stalin, memorial services were held in the Baltic republics to commemorate tens of thousands sent to Siberia in an effort to eradicate opposition to the communist takeover of their countries.
The repression, launched on March 25, 1949, remains a sensitive issue in relations with Russia, which has never acknowledged the Soviet action as a crime. The Russian Foreign Ministry made no mention of the anniversary yesterday.
More than 20,000 Estonians were dispatched to Siberia in operations against the families of wealthy peasants and anyone associated with resistance movements. Three quarters were women and children.
More than 42,000 people were expelled from Latvia and 29,000 from Lithuania, which had a total of 118,000 deported in several sweeps between 1945 and 1952.
Only in the late 1950s, after Stalin’s death, were deportees allowed to return home, although their property remained confiscated and they continued to suffer state persecution.
“What happened 60 years ago is common knowledge in Latvia because there’s not a single family without a link to the deportations,” said Sandra Kalniete, 56, a former Foreign Minister, who was born in Siberia to parents who met in exile. “Only after the fall of the Berlin Wall and Iron Curtain could all the crimes finally be revealed.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5977141.ece

[Russian_dude]

Send Saakashvili a bill.

[Eye]

More than 20,000 Estonians were dispatched to Siberia in operations against the families of wealthy peasants and anyone associated with resistance movements. Three quarters were women and children.
More than 42,000 people were expelled from Latvia and 29,000 from Lithuania, which had a total of 118,000 deported in several sweeps between 1945 and 1952.
Nothing new. About 1,5 - 2 millions Poles were dispatched to far east of USRR in 1939-1941. Many of them died. Very often they had only few minuts to pack their clothes.

[Jaeger07]

Send Saakashvili a bill.

And what has Saakashvilli to do with Stalins gruesome acts? Pls clearify

[Meatwad]

Like modern day Russia is to blame? Honestly RIP to everyone Stalin butchered. I know some will throw things around and say like oh Russia is basicly the Soviet Union or Stalin was a Georgian bastard. Whatever you may think I seriously doubt living in the Soviet Union at that time through revolution, famine, war and Stalin's butchering was a blessing for anyone in the Soviet Union. No one can accept blame for that except himself and his closest advisors, Beria being one and the NKVD.

[Eye]

Not blame but responsibility. Russia is successor of USRR acording to law.

[Holycrusader]

Not blame but responsibility. Russia is successor of USRR acording to law.

Can you point me to this law? In which international agreement is is written that Russia is successor of responsibility for Stalin decisions?

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Stalin was only Georgian by birth his outlook was Russian and he was on record as stating that 'Russians were the glue that held the Soviet Union together'

The Soviet Union was after all simply the Tsarist Russian empire under new management.

I recommend Simon Sebag Montefiore's 'Young Stalin' and 'Stalin: Court of the Red Tsar' for a penetrating forensic analysis of Stalin's psyche and his actions.

Of course apologists of a certain ilk will simply dismiss them as evil Western propaganda because they will make for very uncomfortable reading for a certain type of Russian.

[Russian_dude]

And what has Saakashvilli to do with Stalins gruesome acts? Pls clearify

What does Russia have to do with what Soviet Union did.

[Russian_dude]

Stalin was only Georgian by birth his outlook was Russian and he was on record as stating that 'Russians were the glue that held the Soviet Union together'

The Soviet Union was after all simply the Tsarist Russian empire under new management.

I recommend Simon Sebag Montefiore's 'Young Stalin' and 'Stalin: Court of the Red Tsar' for a penetrating forensic analysis of Stalin's psyche and his actions.

Of course apologists of a certain ilk will simply dismiss them as evil Western propaganda because they will make for very uncomfortable reading for a certain type of Russian.

So? Russians died in the purges as often as others. Most of the Communist important people were either Georgian (Stalin and Beria) or Jewish or Ukranian.

[Sufficient]

What does Russia have to do with what Soviet Union did.

Its a two-way street. Russia loves to take credit for "defeating Germany" etc. so why not this as well...

[Dark-Angel25]

Send Saakashvili a bill.
Are these people asking for any "reparation". Btw why 'd Georgia or Russia today pay for what Soviet leaders did?

[jokuvaan]

Like modern day Russia is to blame?Problem is that Russia denies many historical facts, prevents access to historical archives and so on.
Today's Russia cant be blamed for what happened years ago, but todays actions are relevant.

[Bachelor]

Send Saakashvili a bill.

Yes! http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/aiw/shock.gif


What does Russia have to do with what Soviet Union did.

Yes... What? Georgia was a part of Soviet Union.


Nothing new. About 1,5 - 2 millions Poles were dispatched to far east of USRR in 1939-1941. Many of them died. Very often they had only few minuts to pack their clothes.

Many Russian have been killed in Stalin's camps. More then Georgian, Poles, Baltics, Jews or some nations...

[a_very_ex_STAB]

So? Russians died in the purges as often as others. Most of the Communist important people were either Georgian (Stalin and Beria) or Jewish or Ukranian.

So? Is it not possible to be both Jewish and Russian? I think you'll find that those Soviet 'magnates' who were of Jewish origin e.g, Lazar Kaganovich pretty much suppressed/denied that element of their origins.

[Hun Ranger (not real)]

I dont think so that present day Russia "quilty as charged".
My family harmed by soviets and my country pushed into mess by soviets and socialist but i cant feel hate or anger towards russian peoples and their country.

And i think thats what i expect from other minorities whos suffered during those terrible times and countries too. Yeah, in real its different than expectations.

But Russia might declaire something about this memorial day to improve the relations. I think this might be a good sign or gesture that this Russia is a whole different country than soviet Russia and this Russia could say sorry or something for those sins. But i'm not good at PR.

[Bolt]

prevents access to historical archives and so on.

Iirc, all archives about WW2 were decalssified and anyone can have access to them. Correct me if I'm mistaking

[Red_Rage]

Stalin was only Georgian by birth his outlook was Russian and he was on record as stating that 'Russians were the glue that held the Soviet Union together'

The Soviet Union was after all simply the Tsarist Russian empire under new management.

I recommend Simon Sebag Montefiore's 'Young Stalin' and 'Stalin: Court of the Red Tsar' for a penetrating forensic analysis of Stalin's psyche and his actions.

Of course apologists of a certain ilk will simply dismiss them as evil Western propaganda because they will make for very uncomfortable reading for a certain type of Russian.

You do realize that Mr.Jughashvili could not even speak Russian language properly? His spend his childhood as a marginalized kid Caucasus, and his youth as road bandit in the same Caucasus. He was a Georgian bandit who had enough ruthlessness and energy to sieze power. He did not have a Russian mentality, but rather a psyche of a bandit and a terrorist nicknamed Koba (with childhood grudges and complexes thrown into the mix).

Comparing Stalin's Russia to Tsarist one is simply redicolous as well. Czars never deported and murdered millions of people, and their primary concern was Russia, not a Union of Freeloading Respublics That Will Hate You in 50 Years.

[jokuvaan]

Correct me if I'm mistaking

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/27/world/europe/27archives.html

http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/historysleuth/archive/2009/02/04/closing-the-russian-window-how-the-golden-age-of-soviet-union-research-came-to-an-end.aspx

http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/?en/press/secret-moscow-archives-kept.2290.htm

And here's the main problem:
"If you make all the documents available then our history will not be the way the authorities portray it," Zhukov says

[Antey]

And what has Saakashvilli to do with Stalins gruesome acts? Pls clearify

In brief: descent / lineage / nationality. They were both Georgians, and Stalin's real last name sounded quite similar. You get the punch line of this poor joke now, don't you ?

Some even say, that poor Russians did evil things because they were overpowered and opressed by evil communism, much like Germans don't acknowledge anything, putting the blame on Austrians or enigmatic multinational Nazis. And the truth is, that Russia has been making a lot of noise because of such celebrations - one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Korea doesn't like Japanese PMs attending temple and graves of japanese soldiers...

Nobody (well, nobody reasonable... ) blames modern Russia / Germany for past events - but everyone should watch closely and have right to complain when they cherish their old sentiments and treat historic facts as insult or attack.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

You do realize that Mr.Jughashvili could not even speak Russian language properly? His spend his childhood as a marginalized kid Caucasus, and his youth as road bandit in the same Caucasus. He was a Georgian bandit who had enough ruthlessness and energy to sieze power. He did not have a Russian mentality, but rather a psyche of a bandit and a terrorist nicknamed Koba (with childhood grudges and complexes thrown into the mix).

Comparing Stalin's Russia to Tsarist one is simply redicolous as well. Czars never deported and murdered millions of people, and their primary concern was Russia, not a Union of Freeloading Respublics That Will Hate You in 50 Years.

I never said Stalin was an angel of course he had the mind of a paranoid terrorist. As for being Georgian he was certainly no Georgian nationalist. He approved the Soviet invasion of independent Georgia and ruthlessly purged the party in Georgia.

I find it hard to credit your allegation that he couldn't even speak russian properly. No doubt he had an accent - like Scottish people speak English with an accent. He was in fact something of a scholar, literary critic, journalist and a talented poet in his youth.

And BTW the Czars did deport lots of people and I'm sure Siberia was not exactly a picnic for them. The Czars just weren't very competent or efficient or as systematic and thorough as the Bolsheviks in that respect.

[Antey]

Czars never deported and murdered millions of people, and their primary concern was Russia, not a Union of Freeloading Respublics That Will Hate You in 50 Years.

Ever heard about Syberia ? Land - in russian proverb - "conquered (for Poland) by cossacks (Ukrainians), built by Poles" ? And it's only one relevant example - brush up on Russian internal history.

[Flamming_Python]

Stalin was only Georgian by birth his outlook was Russian and he was on record as stating that 'Russians were the glue that held the Soviet Union together'

WTF is that supposed to mean? That only Russians can be mass-murderers?

He was certainly not a Georgian nationalist alright. But then again the Russians who came to power in the USSR later weren't nationalists either. Does that make them Georgians?

I know that in Britain the English aristocracy held all the power; that doesn't mean it was the same for Russia/USSR post-1917; this was a time when the minorities (whether ethnic or ideological) overthrew the old aristocracy and installed themselves. And they came from a variety of backgrounds; Russian, Jewish, Latvian (may surprise you, but large proportion of Bolshevisks were Latvian), Ukrainian and yes Georgian.


The Soviet Union was after all simply the Tsarist Russian empire under new management.

Territorialy/Geographically-speaking, you are completely correct.


I recommend Simon Sebag Montefiore's 'Young Stalin' and 'Stalin: Court of the Red Tsar' for a penetrating forensic analysis of Stalin's psyche and his actions.


Why don't you instead read some of Stalin's poetry from his younger days? He was quite passionate about Georgia back then (oh sorry does that contradict your theory about him being Russian?)


Of course apologists of a certain ilk will simply dismiss them as evil Western propaganda because they will make for very uncomfortable reading for a certain type of Russian.

I'm going to drill it through your head. Stalin was SOVIET. SOVIET. Soviet does not equal Russian anymore than it equals Lithuanian, Georgian, Tajik, etc...

It's the same as saying British = English more than it does for example British Indian.

[Sufficient]

Iirc, all archives about WW2 were decalssified and anyone can have access to them. Correct me if I'm mistaking

Now that would be great for the historians wouldn't it. But as already pointed out its not even nearly so. After the fall of the Soviet union some archive material got declassified, however the military (GRU) kept its archives shut. And since ww2 was a military conflict the most interesting stuff is still kept classified, such as the NKVD archives.

[Flamming_Python]

So? Is it not possible to be both Jewish and Russian? I think you'll find that those Soviet 'magnates' who were of Jewish origin e.g, Lazar Kaganovich pretty much suppressed/denied that element of their origins.

Well yes but then you might as well call everyone in the USSR Russian. And in that case you will have to admit that the blame for the crimes of the USSR doesn't rest squarely on the shoulders of Russia and ethnic Russians, but also on the other constituent republics such as Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan, and yes post-Stalin the Baltic States too. This is something i'll agree with, but at the same time something that neither the West nor it's revisionist allies in Eastern Europe or the color revolution regimes will ever admit; to them Russia and ethnic Russians have to be the ultimate source of evil that oppressed everyone else

[a_very_ex_STAB]

WTF is that supposed to mean? That only Russians can be mass-murderers?

Of course that is not what I mean't but your choice of interpretation is quite revealing and Stalin's reputation does seem to be undergoing a bit of revival in the Russian Federation.


I know that in Britain the English aristocracy held all the power; that doesn't mean it was the same for Russia/USSR post-1917;

Then you don't know very much. That hasn't been true in Britain since at least 1832 or even before that!



Why don't you instead read some of Stalin's poetry from his younger days? He was quite passionate about Georgia back then (oh sorry does that contradict your theory about him being Russian?)

Actually I have read some of it. I don't find it surprising that a young man would write about where he grew up particularly as that stage in his life he had not really been anywhere else!



I'm going to drill it through your head. Stalin was SOVIET. SOVIET. Soviet does not equal Russian anymore than it equals Lithuanian, Georgian, Tajik, etc...
It's the same as saying British = English more than it does for example British Indian.

Actually as the English traditionally get the blame for crimes of the British Empire (when vastly disproportionate numbers of the most voracious colonizers were Scottish or Irish) you Russians are just going to have to take your historical lumps on that one :)

You seem a little 'overwrought'

[jetsetter]

If Russia wishes to claim the Soviet Union's military history as its own then it must claim everything else. There is no half ways in this.

[Flamming_Python]

I dont think so that present day Russia "quilty as charged".
My family harmed by soviets and my country pushed into mess by soviets and socialist but i cant feel hate or anger towards russian peoples and their country.

And i think thats what i expect from other minorities whos suffered during those terrible times and countries too. Yeah, in real its different than expectations.

But Russia might declaire something about this memorial day to improve the relations. I think this might be a good sign or gesture that this Russia is a whole different country than soviet Russia and this Russia could say sorry or something for those sins. But i'm not good at PR.

Someone here said that while Russia doesn't have the blame, it has the responsibility. I'd agree with that, although it would be nice if other former-USSR republics stood together with us and make a common memorial and shared responsibility.

I think Russia as the successor state should perhaps pay out compensation; it is just about the only country that can do so and it would be a good gesture. I think what Russians are defensive about; is trying to clamp a complex and 'warguilt' onto us like what was done to the Germans; that would never be acceptable seeing as how many of us suffered under Stalin as well.

[Mr.K]

Comparing Stalin's Russia to Tsarist one is simply redicolous as well. Czars never deported and murdered millions of people, and their primary concern was Russia, not a Union of Freeloading Respublics That Will Hate You in 50 Years.

Come on man, the camps were already there, Okhranka was no better than NKVD, Porgroms were done with the blessing of Tsar, or at least he had nothing against it.

Just because the Tsarist regime is not as well documented as the soviet one that it means that a tsarist Russia was a land of rainbows and unicorns.

Spot on for the Republics, but then again, it's only the offcial position of the leaders of the said republics. If they don't feed nationalism and russophobia to their respective people, they will immediatly lose power. Because since the dissolution of the USSR I would seriously doubt that the quality of life of the average former soviet citizen has improved.

[Sufficient]

the blame for the crimes of the USSR doesn't rest squarely on the shoulders of Russia and ethnic Russians, but also on the other constituent republics such as Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan, and yes post-Stalin the Baltic States too.

Not sure how it worked in the rest of that terrible country, but in the occupied Baltic countries it was not possible to get a high position on any level, be it a university/museum/whatever board if you did not talk and write Russian perfectly. This obviously benefited ethnic Russians (since they lack that "funny" dialect the Baltic people have when they speak Russian). Also especially considering that people were forcibly moved back and forth to different states within the union.

Moscow made sure there were Russians everywhere, especially in the local administrations. Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia had and have a big Russian minority that held unproportionally high positions during the occupation. A lot of their whining today is due to them losing these high positions to more qualified personnel. Back in the days party loyalty was seen as the priority.

The major academies, both civilian and military were located in Russia. As were the power, both of those that had it and those that delegated it to others. Soviet Union was a show run by Russia. I'm not surprised by reading that you as a "Russian" try to put some of them blame on the occupied countries, but sorry buddy, that crap only works in Russian history books from the early 90s. No one else believes that.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Someone here said that while Russia doesn't have the blame, it has the responsibility. I'd agree with that, although it would be nice if other former-USSR republics stood together with us and make a common memorial and shared responsibility.

I think Russia as the successor state should perhaps pay out compensation; it is just about the only country that can do so and it would be a good gesture. I think what Russians are defensive about; is trying to clamp a complex and 'warguilt' onto us like what was done to the Germans; that would never be acceptable seeing as how many of us suffered under Stalin as well.

Fair enough but I would not go so far as to say that the current Russian state should start paying out compensation. Once you go down that road it will never end!

[Holycrusader]

So? Russians died in the purges as often as others. Most of the Communist important people were either Georgian (Stalin and Beria) or Jewish or Ukranian.

Dzierzynski was Polish :)

[Red_Rage]

Ever heard about Syberia ? Land - in russian proverb - "conquered (for Poland) by cossacks (Ukrainians), built by Poles" ? And it's only one relevant example - brush up on Russian internal history.



:cantbeli:

1) No such Russian proverb
2) Cossacks are not Ukranian. Ukraine itself is a modern and artificial creation. There are Cossacks in Souther Russia as well.
3) What the hell Poles have to do with Siberia? Must be some Polish complex, to bring their country into every bloody thread. Don't feel bad - Ukranians nowdays are claiming that Buddha was in fact an Ukr, so i guess Polish exploration of Siberia does not sound too wacky compared to that claim.
4) Tsarist "deportations" were more like spa resorts with a winter twist compared to what Bolsheviks did.
5) What exactly was your "relevant example"? And example relavant to what, if it is not a secret?

[Codazo]

Russians suffered from Stalin as much or even more then other Republics in USSR.

[kalkun]

Because since the dissolution of the USSR I would seriously doubt that the quality of life of the average former soviet citizen has improved.

No offence, but wtf?

This reminded me how someone a while ago in this forum said, that he visited Estonia and said public transportation does not exist and there are lots of empty houses.:|

[Flamming_Python]

Then you don't know very much. That hasn't been true in Britain since at least 1832 or even before that!

OK so you guys had the token Indian :D
I agree though, Britain was an empire and as long as you had power and influence it didn't matter what your origin was.


Actually as the English traditionally get the blame for crimes of the British Empire (when vastly disproportionate numbers of the most voracious colonizers were Scottish or Irish) you Russians are just going to have to take your historical lumps on that one :)

You seem a little 'overwrought'

When people blame the English, they blame the aristocracy (you know the guys that say 'can a have a glass of port please dear?'), the industrialists, the military, etc... Only idiots would blame the average English peasant tilling the lands of Sussex, the 14-year old chimney boys or the industrial workers living in conditions every bit as miserable as those the Indians were working in; in fact most English were just as oppressed as everyone else in the empire.

But like I said it was the power institutions that take the blame; the nobility, property-owners and military, and while they didn't exclude peoples of different ethnicity, these were all based in England rather than Africa, India or any other part of the Empire; and of course the primary economic benefit went straight to England; being used to fund industrialization, etc...

In Russia there wasn't this divide, the rulers were chosen on the basis of ideology, Russians weren't richer than anyone else and didn't own property, and the military was made up of all sorts. Development and industrialization were quite evenly spread out among all the republics, and living standards were higher in some republics than in Russia. The one thing you can say is that the military headquarters and political structures were based in Moscow, and that the Russian language was the lingua franca; but in practice that didn't mean much, and Muscovites didn't live particularly better than any other peoples in the USSR.

[Skorzeny74]

For any of you who live in the formerly occupied Baltic republics, please tell me what are the relations like between the Russian population that has remained after the cold war and the General population? Is there a visible hatred shown to the Russian populace or do both sides remain relatively calm?

[Mr.K]

No offence, but wtf?

This remembered me how someone a while ago in this forum said, that he visited Estonia and said public transportation does not exist and there are lots of empty houses.:|

No offense meant, and no offense taken.
Average citizen, from all the former repbulics combiend.
That includes glorious nation of Turkmenistan, Rich republic of Moldova, Clean and unpoluted democratic Azerbaijan, fabulous Armenia, prosperous Kyrgistan.
Not everyone ended up like the Baltics.

[Flamming_Python]

No offence, but wtf?

This reminded me how someone a while ago in this forum said, that he visited Estonia and said public transportation does not exist and there are lots of empty houses.:|

Quite true, if you would care to ask the average Azerbaijani, Georgian, Armenian, Tajik (something like 50% of their GDP comes from workers sending money from Russia), Kazakh, Uzbek, Turkmen, Kyrgyz, Moldovan, Ukranian or even most Russians, not about personal freedoms, etc... (although with some of these newly independent countries the USSR compares favourably), but about living standards, job security, healthcare, education, holidays, pensions, and yes public transport & housing, etc...

And I don't think the Baltics have got it that good either from what I heard from my friends. The only reason there isn't mass unemployment there is because so much of the population has run off to England to work. Much like so much of Central Asia and the Caucasus ran off to Russia to work when their economies tanked.

[Sufficient]

Come on man, the camps were already there

Really? I assume you are talking about the katorgas, work camps for criminals and war prisoners. Not quite the same as the internment camps set up by the Cheka, and not the same camps either. In 1933 it tooks the Soviets 65 days to reach a higher colonization level of Siberia than during 300 years of tsarist rule. During 1933 and 1934 more than a million citizens were deported to Siberia. Sure, some of them might have been criminals that would have got sentenced even in a Western court. But most were not, and even you know that.

[edit] Citizen is probably the wrong word. In the Nordic countries there's a lot of stories about whole families that went to the great country Soviet Union during the 1920s and 1930s, lured by the propaganda. Most never came back and just dissapeared.

[Mr.K]

Really? I assume you are talking about the katorgas, work camps for criminals and war prisoners. Not quite the same as the internment camps set up by the Cheka, and not the same camps either. In 1933 it tooks the Soviets 65 days to reach a higher colonization level of Siberia than during 300 years of tsarist rule. During 1933 and 1934 more than a million citizens were deported to Siberia. Sure, some of them might have been criminals that would have got sentenced even in a Western court. But most were not, and even you know that.

I'm not denying anything, but to say that the SU created the secret police and the camps would be false. Revolutionairies went trough those camps too. Guess where "Iron" Felix Dzerzhinsky got his inspirations from.

[Mousepad]

Ever heard about Syberia ? Land - in russian proverb - "conquered (for Poland) by cossacks (Ukrainians), built by Poles" ? And it's only one relevant example - brush up on Russian internal history.

WTF is that? I heard a lot of BS in my life, but that's now in top-50 :cantbeli: MP.net is a field of gold for "Enlarge your *****" adv banners, those guys would make a fortune here.

[kalkun]

And I don't think the Baltics have got it that good either from what I heard from my friends. The only reason there isn't mass unemployment there is because so much of the population has run off to England to work. Much like so much of Central Asia and the Caucasus ran off to Russia to work when their economies tanked.

Well, I live in Estonia in private house and I personally think we are doing well. I remember you saying ordinary people can't afford to buy SONY, I disagree with that too. About Public transport: our trains are old but new ones are coming in few years. Buses? I don't remember when was the last time Ikarus was in service, maybe 7 years ago.
Health care is better than UKs, you can even find English articles about itp-).

[1curious]

How predictable. ..:roll:

A shallow article succeeds like a charm exciting nationalism and Russophobia...
Why so many intelligent people allow themselves to be manipulated so easily by such a cheap trick every time?:cantbeli::cantbeli:

I am guessing most here are born way past the Soviet time when the shameful events took place…Why…why on God’s earth would a 20 yo Balt want to fill his heart with hatred and resentment and place it in front of another 20 yo Russian, Georgian, Jew...whose grandpa may or may not have been involved?

Is there really nothing else to do in present-day EE? :cantbeli:

[Mr.K]

Well, I live in Estonia in private house and I personally think we are doing well. I remember you saying ordinary people can't afford to buy SONY, I disagree with that too. About Public transport: our trains are old but new ones are coming in few years. Buses? I don't remember when was the last time Ikarus was in service, maybe 7 years ago.
Health care is better than UKs, you can even find English articles about itp-).

You were always doing better than the other republics :)

[Kangars]

The major academies, both civilian and military were located in Russia. As were the power, both of those that had it and those that delegated it to others. Soviet Union was a show run by Russia. I'm not surprised by reading that you as a "Russian" try to put some of them blame on the occupied countries, but sorry buddy, that crap only works in Russian history books from the early 90s. No one else believes that.

Sure Soviet Union was evil and so on. But could you believe that in 80's Latvia was:
Car producer
Major rail train producer
Major textile products manufacturer
Leading (in SU) household radio and music entertainment producer
Microelectronic supplier for SU space program
Major fishing fleet and transport fleet in SU
Latvia had facilities for following research programs:
nuclear fusion
nanotechnology
extreme temperature materials
micro surgery

So I disagree that most of good stuff concentrated in Russian PSSR. Shall we discuss what Latvia became today?

[Skorzeny74]

How predictable. ..:roll:

A shallow article succeeds like a charm exciting nationalism and Russophobia...
Why so may intelligent people allow themselves to be manipulated so easily by such a cheap trick every time?:cantbeli::cantbeli:

I am guessing most here are born way past the Soviet time when the shameful events took place…Why…why on God’s earth would a 20 yo Balt want to fill his heart with hatred and resentment and place it in front of another 20 yo Russian, Georgian, Jew...whose grandpa may or may not have been involved?

Is there really nothing else to do in present-day EE? :cantbeli:


I grew up during the Cold War, I remember visiting the Berlin Wall when I was a young kid. I also remember the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. I was able to cross over to East Berlin, I remember it being a place of profound sadness. It was like walking back into another age. I certainly do not have hatred for Russians, but the Soviets who committed crimes should receive justice.

[1curious]

I grew up during the Cold War, I remember visiting the Berlin Wall when I was a young kid. I also remember the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. I was able to cross over to East Berlin, I remember it being a place of profound sadness. It was like walking back into another age. I certainly do not have hatred for Russians, but the Soviets who committed crimes should receive justice.
Fine and I agree...So make a distiction look up to better and brighter things in life. No one says forget your history or don't respect you elders and traditions.

All I am saying, this stupid nationalism hurts young peoples' perceptions and future on both sides...

[kalkun]

For any of you who live in the formerly occupied Baltic republics, please tell me what are the relations like between the Russian population that has remained after the cold war and the General population? Is there a visible hatred shown to the Russian populace or do both sides remain relatively calm?

I would say relatively calm. I think younger(18 y.old and younger) people have sometimes problematic relations(personal experience). But certainly not the myth that you could get beaten/stabbed for speaking Russian or something similar. Neither do I find people aggressive towards Estonians in towns with large Russian speaking populace.

[User_Name]

I also remember the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

OMG this tread is gold, and i remember the NATO invasion of Afghanistanroflrofl

But I forget, that in those days the same islamist fukkers were freedom fighters, huh?

[a_very_ex_STAB]

OMG this tread is gold, and i remember the NATO invasion of Afghanistanroflrofl

But I forget, that in those days the same islamist fukkers were freedom fighters, huh?

What NATO invasion? Our limited contingent was invited in and presented with flowers to provide 'fraternal assistance'

rofl

[Skorzeny74]

OMG this tread is gold, and i remember the NATO invasion of Afghanistanroflrofl

But I forget, that in those days the same islamist fukkers were freedom fighters, huh?


Uh, I wasn't p[assing judgment on either action. I merely remember that at a time when communism was seen by many as triumphing. It's kinda amazing the changes the world has seen in the short time I have been here on Earth.

[User_Name]

What NATO invasion? Our limited contingent was invited in and presented with flowers to provide 'fraternal assistance'

rofl
Yep, poppy production comes in my mindp-)

[Switek]

OMG this tread is gold, and i remember the NATO invasion of Afghanistanroflrofl

But I forget, that in those days the same islamist fukkers were freedom fighters, huh?

No you're a simple dump like many other Russian mp.net members who try to put an equal mark between soviet invasion and NATO engagement in Afghanistan.

In fact, we try to keep all Afghanistan ****, which was spilled during Soviet Army experiments in that country, in one place to prevent the other parts of the world.

We should thank you for your deep efforts in destabilizing Afghanistan and western Pakistan.

[Kangars]

Uh, I wasn't p[assing judgment on either action. I merely remember that at a time when communism was seen by many as triumphing. It's kinda amazing the changes the world has seen in the short time I have been here on Earth.

No offence. But do we suffer from triumph of capitalism right now? :)

[Skorzeny74]

No offence. But do we suffer from triumph of capitalism right now? :)

No offense taken friend, well I would say that no economic system is perfect. Like I said it's amazing the rapidity of change that the world has seen since the 1990's. For roughly the first 20 years I lived in a world that was set by fixed boundaries, an east and a west. Now it's a much more confusing world less defined in many instances. I don't think it' s really that capitalism necessarily triumphed. I think it's more along the lines that communism failed.

[Switek]

EDIT: Double post

[User_Name]

No you're a simple dump like many other Russian mp.net members who try to put an equal mark between soviet invasion and NATO engagement in Afghanistan.

In fact, we try to keep all Afghanistan ****, which was spilled during Soviet Army experiments in that country, in one place to prevent the other parts of the world.

We should thank you for your deep efforts in destabilizing Afghanistan and western Pakistan.

First of all, i am not russian, second one - learn history first before spraying shyt. I see you even do not know who supplied the islamists during the 80s with weapons and who have supported the taliban movement.

[asch]

No you're a simple dump like many other Russian mp.net members
hell yeah, let's bring more insults in this already retarded thread.
*facepalm*

[Switek]

First of all, i am not russian, second one - learn history first before spraying shyt. I see you even do not know who supplied the islamists during the 80s with weapons and who have supported the taliban movement.


You're dump if you do not recognize the reasons and results. If Soviet Russia and its troops weren't so eager to create another communist paradise in Afghanistan there would not be any support needed.

[Switek]

hell yeah, let's bring more insults in this already retarded thread.
*facepalm*


Did I say all? p-)

[ting]

[edit] Citizen is probably the wrong word. In the Nordic countries there's a lot of stories about whole families that went to the great country Soviet Union during the 1920s and 1930s, lured by the propaganda. Most never came back and just dissapeared.

We had the Kola Norwegians, but they settled there in the 1860-1870s under invitation from the Tsar. When the revolution started some fled while others stayed. There were about a 1000 there in 1917. In 1940 they were "moved" to Karelia(SSR), and with the continuation war they were forced to flee. Many/most died. Some even served in the Red Army, but they were still not allowed to return to Kola or speak Norwegian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kola_Norwegians

Stalin was such a lovely fellow.p-)

[Bolt]

This article (http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/historysleuth/archive/2009/02/04/closing-the-russian-window-how-the-golden-age-of-soviet-union-research-came-to-an-end.aspx) tells you how it was to work in Archives in Soviet Union first - and I don't doubt that it was hard to get access to it. Then it briefly mentions nowadays conditions. I quote:


As Olga Kryshtanovskaya, a sociologist at the Russian Academy of Sciences, recently told The Economist, FSB agents “believe they can see enemies where ordinary people can't.” Not coincidentally, a chill has descended over historical research. Even before Putin took office, officials began to reclassify documents. Some scholars find themselves denied access to records they were able to examine just a few years ago. Increasingly, Russian historians are practising self-censorship to avoid incurring the wrath of the authorities.
Meanwhile, Western researchers are finding archivists, themselves presumably subject to FSB pressure, noticeably less accommodating. According to one American historian, foreign scholars at the State Archive of the Russian Federation “must be escorted anywhere they go, from the entrance to the khranilishche (the stacks), to the stolovaia (cafeteria), and supposedly even to the toilet.” Enforcement of restrictive rules remains as yet haphazard. Still, their mere existence wreaks havoc with researchers. This past summer Lynne Viola traveled to Arkangelsk, in the far north, to work in the local archives. She had been there several times before, always without incident. On this occasion, however, the staff turned her away. You failed to get FSB clearance, they explained. It's required by law.
That neither she nor any other Western scholar she knew had ever heard of the law apparently was beside the point.
And? In Russia if you're going to visit Kubinka and you don't have Russian citizenship, yo have to get the clearance and then be escorted in this (probably not only there) museum. While I agree, it's quite odd, but this is the way it is there. And I'd expect something similar from archives. The arcticle doesn't tell if Lyne Viola at least tried to get this needed clearance?


After the fall of the Soviet union some archive material got declassified, however the military (GRU) kept its archives shut. And since ww2 was a military conflict the most interesting stuff is still kept classified, such as the NKVD archives.
Hm. That's strange.
All those authors like Isaev (modern author of many books about various operations of WW2 - such as the beginning of the war, Stalingrad battle, Berlin operation and many many more - who relies on heavy use of archive documents), Diukov and Pyhalov (who have written some books about the occupation, attrocities etc - and who also use lots and heaps of archives - including from NKVD), Bair Irinchiev (who have written a balanced book about Finnish-Soviet war - and he also uses declassified documents from the archives), even 80+ years old pensioner Pylcin, who was fighting from '43 to '45 as a officer in Penal battalion - they all managed somehow to get acces to the archives, which were declassified just few years ago. I don't know how did they do it. They must be David Blaines of some sort - street magic!


MoD has declassified archive documents of Red Army and Navy from 1941-1945. As Sergey Iljenkov says, the "classified" stamp was taken foff rom archive documents in Central archive of MoD in Podolsk, Central navy archive in Gatchino, in Medical army archive in St. Petersburg. According to MoD's data, only in CAMO (Central Archive of MoD), more than 4 mln documents of WW2 were declassified.

Now public can freely acces documents of General HQ and Rear of Red Army, Navy HQ, special forces etc., as well as Fronts', MDs', Fleets', Armies', Flotilies', Academies' documents and many more [I was lazy to translate all of them]
http://www.vokrugsveta.ru/news/1208/

When did it happen? In 2007, when Putin was a President. Somehow this contradicts to this quote from the article, don't you think?

and Mr. Trenin understood what many historians in Russia have come to realize: Under Vladimir V. Putin (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/p/vladimir_v_putin/index.html?inline=nyt-per), the attitude toward the past has changed. The archives that Mr. Trenin was seeking, stored on the fourth floor of a building in Tomsk, in boxes stamped “K.G.B. of the U.S.S.R.,” would remain sealed

Also, please note:

The archives that Mr. Trenin was seeking, stored on the fourth floor of a building in Tomsk, in boxes stamped “K.G.B. of the U.S.S.R.,” would remain sealed

They remain sealed just as some documents in Britain, for example. Russia is not the only country with classified archives from that era.

But then again, about the archives of opression era:

In Magadan area, today there is more than 18 thousand documents from "opressive years.

[...]
In 2000, FSB has declassified more than 1.5 billion cases, and in the april of this year FSB has said that it is ready to give acces to archives to prevent history falsification.

Also, in 2001 Sverdlovskaja oblast has became one more district of RF that gives access to documents of Stalin's opression: on the exhibition of Government archive in Ekaterinburg, visitors could see inique documents about the period of Stalin's opressions, which were just declassified.

http://www.topicnews.net/n_21859.htm

[Sufficient]

but they were still not allowed to return to Kola or speak Norwegian.

Yeah, same thing with the Finnic people on the Russ... I mean "Soviet" side of the border. The Russians did a fine job forcing them to adapt the Russian language and to cease honoring their own traditions. Funny, seeing as socialism should be multicultural. In this case the Tsarist Russia was far more open and multicultural however. Of these Finnic people that the Russians hunted down especially the Ingrians are a sad case. From Wikipedia:


The First All-Union Census of the Soviet Union in 1926 recorded 114,831 Leningrad Finns, as Ingrian Finns were called.[1]

[...]

Many Ingrian Finns were either executed, deported to Siberia, or forced to relocate to other parts of the Soviet Union.

[...]

After the war many Ingrian Finns settled in Soviet-controlled Estonia. After the collapse of the Soviet Union a significant number of them have moved to Finland, where they are eligible for automatic naturalization in the Finnish Law of Return. The number of people who declared their nationality as Finnish in the 2002 Russian census was 34,000 (down from 47,000 in 1989 (RSFSR).

As many Ingrian Finns, including mixed families, who moved to Finland did not speak another language than Russian and in many cases identify themselves as Russians,[5] mostly the younger generation, there are social integration problems similar to those of any other migrant groups in Europe, to such an extent that there is a political debate in Finland as to the maintenance of the Finnish Law of Return.

[User_Name]

You're dump if you do not recognize the reasons and results. If Soviet Russia and its troops weren't so eager to create another communist paradise in Afghanistan there would not be any support needed.
No you are dump, Soviet aim was not to let Afghanistan be islamistic because of its Central Asia republics, plus global politics. They did not played with islamists as US were doing. And we know both how this game ended.

[Switek]

User Name

You have no clue what are you talking about! You've just made my day rofl

[omghihi]

one reason why Russia today will never admit or let any discussion to be held on any crimes committed by its predecessor, is because former colonies might bill them for that. not like they would receive anything... but germany still pays reparations for WWI until 2020, let alone compensations to victims of the holocaust.

Stalin was georgian until about the time his first wife died. his new name came from 'stal', which obviously means 'steel' in Russian.

[Xaito]

You're dump if you do not recognize the reasons and results. If Soviet Russia and its troops weren't so eager to create another communist paradise in Afghanistan there would not be any support needed.

If you're going to call people dumb, at least learn how it's spelled - it's written with a "b".
I also don't think all that many people - especially not soldiers - were concerned about making Afghanistan a communist paradise... or any paradise for that matter. :roll:
Look up how the Soviet Union got involved in Afghanistan.
In your imagination everything that Soviet/Russians did was evil and criminal and everything NATO does is selflessly saving the world - I always thought you're more clever then that.

[Red_Rage]

What the hell is "a dump"?

I'll quote Samuel L Jackson in his only good role:

English mother-****er! Do you speak it!?

[Mr.K]

No you're a simple dump like many other Russian mp.net members who try to put an equal mark between soviet invasion and NATO engagement in Afghanistan.

In fact, we try to keep all Afghanistan ****, which was spilled during Soviet Army experiments in that country, in one place to prevent the other parts of the world.

We should thank you for your deep efforts in destabilizing Afghanistan and western Pakistan.

Pure gold! Same words could have been said by a soviet general in the late 70's.
Fraternal aid, and stabilization p-).

[Mr.K]

one reason why Russia today will never admit or let any discussion to be held on any crimes committed by its predecessor, is because former colonies might bill them for that. not like they would receive anything... but germany still pays reparations for WWI until 2020, let alone compensations to victims of the holocaust.

Stalin was georgian until about the time his first wife died. his new name came from 'stal', which obviously means 'steel' in Russian.

"Colonies" is a bit harsh don't you think?
Finally someone one honest that suggests that it's about the money.

[Switek]

Pure gold! Same words could have been said by a soviet general in the late 70's.
Fraternal aid, and stabilization p-).

Don't you really know how and why Soviet Army entered Afghanistan or you still buy cheap soviet propaganda ****... ?

:lol:

[Hast2]

Can you give us a clue? Because when you just throw some cheap insults, you're looking dumb.

But you wanna look like smart, educated Pole, right?:roll:

[Hast2]

Don't you really know how and why Soviet Army entered Afghanistan or you still buy cheap soviet propaganda ****... ?

:lol:

I don't know. Please explain, like a mature human being.

[Mr.K]

Don't you really know how and why Soviet Army entered Afghanistan or you still buy cheap soviet propaganda ****... ?

:lol:

Tell me in private please. Wiki is cheap soviet popaganda too right?

[Red_Rage]

Don't you really know how and why Soviet Army entered Afghanistan or you still buy cheap soviet propaganda ****... ?

:lol:

Can you share your version of "cheap propaganda crap" that our heads are supposetly filled with? Most Russians are pretty realistic about Afghanistan and hold the opinion that intervention was to check the the spread of American/Pakistani influence in the region. US had lost Iran, so Afghanistan was next in line as a foothold in the region. Noone gave a **** about Afghani people during Soviet invasion, noone gives a **** about them now - it's all about geopolitical power games.


According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujaheddin began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, Dec. 24, 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it On July 3, 1979 US President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul...We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would. The day the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war...

-Your fellow Pole and the "Godfather" of Islamic Fundamentalism, Zbignev Bzezhinski in an interview to French Le Nouvel Observateur.

[Flamming_Python]

Yeah, same thing with the Finnic people on the Russ... I mean "Soviet" side of the border. The Russians did a fine job forcing them to adapt the Russian language and to cease honoring their own traditions. Funny, seeing as socialism should be multicultural. In this case the Tsarist Russia was far more open and multicultural however. Of these Finnic people that the Russians hunted down especially the Ingrians are a sad case. From Wikipedia:

AFAIK Norway did the same thing; not that you have ever heard of it I'm sure. Many Norwegian Finns (Kven) ended up speaking Norwegian as a first-language and identifying themselves as Norwegians, and many were deported as it was feared they were too pro-Russian or pro-German.

As for Ingrians, sure many died but just as many Russians did too proportionatly. That's the fact that you choose to ignore, as acknowledging that fact would mean you accepting that the USSR didn't target Ingrian Finns specifically for the Gulag treatment. As for moving people around - it was quite common in the days of Stalin; it was very unfortunate but it happened to many peoples.


Not sure how it worked in the rest of that terrible country, but in the occupied Baltic countries it was not possible to get a high position on any level, be it a university/museum/whatever board if you did not talk and write Russian perfectly. This obviously benefited ethnic Russians (since they lack that "funny" dialect the Baltic people have when they speak Russian). Also especially considering that people were forcibly moved back and forth to different states within the union.

Moscow made sure there were Russians everywhere, especially in the local administrations. Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia had and have a big Russian minority that held unproportionally high positions during the occupation. A lot of their whining today is due to them losing these high positions to more qualified personnel. Back in the days party loyalty was seen as the priority.

To an extent you are right; it was certainly easier for Russians to get official positions while so much of the native population was either illiterate, didn't speak Russian sufficiently or were judged as not loyal enough to Soviet socialism. In some cases communists from Moscow (not neccessirly Russians mind you) were brought in to run autonomous republics (don't know if this happened with fellow Soviet republics; maybe Tajikistan and Moldova). However, this generally became far less of an issue once the native population began industrialising, having education and learning Russian. For example Chechnya in the 60's and 70's was AFAIK run by a Russian, but by the 80's most of the officials and the head of the Chechen republic were Chechen. Secoundly, this same requirement about knowing Russian, worked both ways, in that many non-Russian communists took power both as premiers or high officials of the USSR (Trotsky, Kamanev, Zinoviev, Stalin, Beria, Krushchev, Shevardnadze, etc...) particularly in the early days of the USSR when there were large proportions of minorities among the Bolshevik revolutionaries. In Boris Yeltsin's early days, AFAIK it was a Chechen who was the 2nd or 3rd most powerful official in Russia. Also while I don't have the figures, i'm sure that non-Russians were also sent to run ethnic Russian regions. No-one complained. As for the Baltic regions; AFAIK they were always run by Balts.


The major academies, both civilian and military were located in Russia. As were the power, both of those that had it and those that delegated it to others. Soviet Union was a show run by Russia. I'm not surprised by reading that you as a "Russian" try to put some of them blame on the occupied countries, but sorry buddy, that crap only works in Russian history books from the early 90s. No one else believes that.The major academies, institutes and universities were those which were based on those around in Tsarist times (e.g. Moscow had one of the best Soviet-era education facilities because it already had many teachers, expertise, etc... pre-1917), and they carried on being among the most prestigious. Most republics didn't have such institutes at all, most were founded during Soviet times (as well as many more in Russia), so proporitionatly education developed more in the other republics, than in Russia where there were already many facilities from the times of the empire.

Occupied countries? Why don't you ask the Central Asians and Caucasian people what they thought of the 'occupation'? You'll be laughed out the door. For the Azerbaijanis, they had the opportunity to create a Azerbaijani state, open much education and many schools in their own language, and attempted to Azerbaijanise their national minorities (mostly Dagestani tribes), as a result of which Azerbaijan still has much tension on its northern border.

For the Georgians it was the opportunity to similarly create a unified state that incorporated South Ossetia and Abkhazia, introduce Georgian language to those regions (go to Sukhumi and look at the engraved writing at the top of their institutes - i'll give you a hint, it's not written in Russian and it's not written in Abkhaz), and generally build up one of the most wealthy republics in the USSR.

Ask the Tajiks, who never had a country before. During the times of Soviet 'occupation' they were able to declare their own republic; achieve industrialisation and urbanisation, create an intimidating aluminium industry and benefit from Soviet citizenship to study and to an extent migrate as they saw fit.

For the Ukrainians, their first rulers in the 20's and 30's were ones who enacted nationalist policies of 'Ukrainisation' not to different from some of the one's implemented today; you see Lenin, Stalin and co. were in the early 20's afraid of 'Great Russian Chauvinism' and a follow on to the civil war, and supported aggressive policies which to some extent can be described as nationalist, in order to avoid it. Brezhnev grew up in the Ukraine in those times, and listed his nationality as 'Ukrainian' in order to avoid discrimination and be able to rise to the top. Only when he got into power did he admit that he was actually a Russian. Of course you haven't heard of this either, everyone knows it was the Russians who oppressed everyone...

For the Uzbeks, they also had nationalist leaders in the early period of the USSR, who suppressed minorities in their borders (until Stalin executed the leader of the Uzbek SSR anyway), but on the plus side they achieved a great boost to literacy rates during that period, and much literature was written in Uzbek.
It's clear you don't know what the hell you are talking about :bash:


Well, I live in Estonia in private house and I personally think we are doing well. I remember you saying ordinary people can't afford to buy SONY, I disagree with that too. About Public transport: our trains are old but new ones are coming in few years. Buses? I don't remember when was the last time Ikarus was in service, maybe 7 years ago.
Health care is better than UKs, you can even find English articles about itp-).

Good to hear mate but I think we can agree that the current period of prosperity is the eye before the storm. Unfortunately Estonia is second only to Latvia in terms of how much it's finance system is in trouble; a finance system that has funded the rapid growth over the last decade; in this way the properity was sort of artificial as it was in Russia, being based on an over-inflated financial system and over-inflated oil prices accordingly. Secondly, as I mentioned, if work dries up in Europe and a sizable amount of the Estonians who went to Europe to work end up coming home at a time of shrinking GDP, unemployment will accelerate and wages will plunge further.

[Mr.K]

Can you share your version of "cheap propaganda crap" that our heads are supposetly filled with? Most Russians are pretty realistic about Afghanistan and hold the opinion that intervention was to check the the spread of American/Pakistani influence in the region. US had lost Iran, so Afghanistan was next in line as a foothold in the region. Noone gave a **** about Afghani people during Soviet invasion, noone gives a **** about them now - it's all about geopolitical power games.



-Your fellow Pole and the "Godfather" of Islamic Fundamentalism, Zbignev Bzezhinski in an interview to French Le Nouvel Observateur.


Damn, I was about to quote that paragraph too.woot

[Flamming_Python]

Don't you really know how and why Soviet Army entered Afghanistan or you still buy cheap soviet propaganda ****... ?

:lol:

So tell us Switek, why did the Soviet Army enter Afghanistan in 1979?

[Hast2]

Can you share your version of "cheap propaganda crap" that our heads are supposetly filled with? Most Russians are pretty realistic about Afghanistan and hold the opinion that intervention was to check the the spread of American/Pakistani influence in the region. US had lost Iran, so Afghanistan was next in line as a foothold in the region. Noone gave a **** about Afghani people during Soviet invasion, noone gives a **** about them now - it's all about geopolitical power games.

Why did you do that? Now our "i know all" Pole will just copy this.

[Switek]

If you're going to call people dumb, at least learn how it's spelled - it's written with a "b".
I also don't think all that many people - especially not soldiers - were concerned about making Afghanistan a communist paradise... or any paradise for that matter. :roll:
Look up how the Soviet Union got involved in Afghanistan.
In your imagination everything that Soviet/Russians did was evil and criminal and everything NATO does is selflessly saving the world - I always thought you're more clever then that.


From soldiers perspective war differs than from political one. I do not judge your soldiers but you must be blind if you don't know what were Brezhnev's (a fake war hero BTW) motivation to make Afghanistan his another puppet.

What an irony! Polish soldier in Ghazni are at war an occupy Afghanistan just as a pure result of soviet engagement in Afghanistan 30 years ago.

[Switek]

So tell us Switek, why did the Soviet Army enter Afghanistan in 1979?


Tell me in private please. Wiki is cheap soviet popaganda too right?


I don't know. Please explain, like a mature human being.


Are you playing a dumb ;) or you all really are?

rofl

[Hast2]

Yes, i am.

Now explain.

[TR1]

Go ahead Switek. Tell us of the Evil Russians reasons. I;m sure it wasn't just to support a system that was far more progressive than the backwards society existing in there before.

[Switek]

I'm really surprised that so many Russians defend communist propaganda and political line from 1970's. I have a feeling that history did not teach you anything.

As a matter of fact. If NATO fails in Afghanistan (what seems very unlikely) you will get an reason for celebrating couse it'll be a real end of NATO but it will last only one night. Islamic terrorism will be much closer to your country...

[TR1]

I'm really surprised that so many Russians defend communist propaganda and political line from 1970's. I have a feeling that history did not teach you anything.

As a matter of fact. If NATO fails in Afghanistan (what seems very unlikely) you will get an reason for celebrating couse it'll be a real end of NATO but it will last only one night. Islamic terrorism will be much closer to your country...
Enlighten us, how did those Islamic terrorist appear and gain so much power at first?

[Switek]

Yes, i am.

Now explain.


So there are no explanations which will be able to help you. Do you homework yourself.

[Switek]

Enlighten us, how did those Islamic terrorist appear and gain so much power at first?


Was there Islamic terrorism in Afghanistan in 1979? I mean pure Islamic, not political or criminal.

[TR1]

Stop avoiding the question, how did Islamist militants succesfully come into power?

[Hast2]

I'm really surprised that so many Russians defend communist propaganda and political line from 1970's. I have a feeling that history did not teach you anything.

As a matter of fact. If NATO fails in Afghanistan (what seems very unlikely) you will get an reason for celebrating couse it'll be a real end of NATO but it will last only one night. Islamic terrorism will be much closer to your country...

Can you just answer please... I'm really interested in those reasons(only human being without cheap propaganda's influence can comprehend them, as you say)

Or you're just trolling? No problem then.

[Flamming_Python]

No Switek i'm being serious. I really am a brainwashed communist and I honestly thought that the USSR invaded Afghanistan in 1979 as an immediate consequence of the Iranian Islamic Revolution and the fear that this revolution will spread to Afghanistan and from there to Soviet Central Asia.

Ok so maybe i'm not a brainwashed communist, but I honestly do think that that was the reason the USSR invaded. What is your explanation? And no i'm not playing 'dumb'.

BTW Afghanistan was already very friendly with the USSR before the USSR invaded. If we were convinced it would remain stable surely we could just expand ties with it and make it into an ally via diplomacy and economic support like we did with Cuba, Vietnam, etc... instead of invading it.

[Hast2]

So there are no explanations which will be able to help you. Do you homework yourself.

Yeah, you're trolling.

[Dark-Angel25]

You're dump if you do not recognize the reasons and results. If Soviet Russia and its troops weren't so eager to create another communist paradise in Afghanistan there would not be any support needed.
You are calling people dumb yet you can't spell it.How dumb of you!!!:)

[Switek]

Yeah, you're trolling.


report me...

[Switek]

You are calling people dumb yet you can't spell it.How dumb of you!!!:)
I don't care. Errors happens... Is it your whole contribution to this thread? Thank you :lol:

[NineLine]

Stop avoiding the question, how did Islamist militants succesfully come into power?


Americans.

[Dark-Angel25]

I don't care. Errors happens... Is it your whole contribution to this thread? Thank you :lol:
Well i'm the thread starter.That's my contribution.What's yours beside starting flame war as usual?

[Havoc345]

Enlighten us, how did those Islamic terrorist appear and gain so much power at first?

Hindsight is 20/20

[Switek]

Well i'm the thread starter.That's my contribution.What's yours beside starting flame war as usual?

Do you know me? Or you are another alter ego of previously banned user?

[Red_Rage]

Switek,

Quit calling people "dumb" (or "dump" in your version of English language), stop squirming and answer the question.


So far your contribution to the thread amounted to this:


Are you playing a dumb ;-) or you all really are?

rofl

Are you?


I'm really surprised that so many Russians defend communist propaganda and political line from 1970's. I have a feeling that history did not teach you anything.

As a matter of fact. If NATO fails in Afghanistan (what seems very unlikely) you will get an reason for celebrating couse it'll be a real end of NATO but it will last only one night. Islamic terrorism will be much closer to your country.

Russians never opposed NATO efforts in Afghanistan. Iraq - yes (b/c it did owe Russia a lot of moolah, that got defaulted); Afghanistan simply takes pressure off Russian Tadjikistan border, which a good thing.



o there are no explanations which will be able to help you. Do you homework yourself

If you keep presenting your "explanations" as trolling one-liners, then yeah, they won't be able to help for sure. You should do your homework yourself before telling other people to do it.



Was there Islamic terrorism in Afghanistan in 1979? I mean pure Islamic, not political or criminal.

Is it a rhetorical question? Pakistan is right ****ing there, and they were always radical Islamists. Radical Islamic movements were imported into Afghanistan as early as 1978 through various student movements.



report me...

Wasn't going to, but since you ask for it.


I don't care. Errors happens... Is it your whole contribution to this thread? Thank you :lol:

What is your contribution? Dodging questions and spewing your usual "you are all brainwashed peasants" bullshyt?

[NineLine]

I think all of you guys are mildly retarded.

[Switek]

No Switek i'm being serious. I really am a brainwashed communist and I honestly thought that the USSR invaded Afghanistan in 1979 as an immediate consequence of the Iranian Islamic Revolution and the fear that this revolution will spread to Afghanistan and from there to Soviet Central Asia.

Ok so maybe i'm not a brainwashed communist, but I honestly do think that that was the reason the USSR invaded. What is your explanation? And no i'm not playing 'dumb'.

BTW Afghanistan was already very friendly with the USSR before the USSR invaded. If we were convinced it would remain stable surely we could just expand ties with it and make it into an ally via diplomacy and economic support like we did with Cuba, Vietnam, etc... instead of invading it.

Nope it was an effect of political influences assurance over Afghanistan (which was being held throughout 1970's). A pure result of Brezhnev doctrine implementation. A really nothing special. Just doctrine over political realism.

[KilRemgor]

One big remark on all of that Soviet-blaming:
All this is pretty much meaningless now.
For a one simple reason: all the statements and approaches cited are exaggerating truth by several orders of magnitude and skew it.

And here's simple way to understand this.

Imagine that Warsaw Pact would've won. And that Communism somehow triumphed over Capitalism.

Then there could've been a similar thread somewhere... where it would've been stated that "capitalist americans" were ruthless slavers that exterminated indigenous North America population, imported slaves from all over the world, then later replaced slavery at home with turning workers' of lesser countries into cheap human robots; and pictures from Ford's factories where workers are dying off on the job would've cluttered the forum :)

Stop, you would say. We abolished slavery, provided economic help, formed worker's unions, etc.

But.

Those who wanted to portray US as bad never would've told you such things.

So those who portrayed and named (literally, as per famous POTUS quote) USSR 'Empire of Evil' paid little attenion to the fact that Stalin and his 'cult of personality' were immediately abolished in the late-50's, that Russians suffered equally (and actually greater in most cases) in all those purges and 'reforms', that those who started the whole mess weren't at least Russian by nationality, that USSR managed to provide quite ok quality of life to its inhabitants in 70's... and many other things.

Instead, West-supportive claims are always considered gospel truth, USSR-supportive - ze evil communist propaganda. Yes there were purges and many families suffered on this; but there was slavery in US and exploitation as well. And the scale of USSR' crimes is exaggerated a lot, just like US' ones were exaggerated in USSR. That US won the Cold War doesn't mean its exaggerations were better.
What matters is what you believe in.

There can be never an agreement on those things while there is still reason to hate and to blame. One side will have 'documents' interpreted one way, another will have other 'documents' or interpret the same differently.

Only when the reasons for that hatred and the hatred itself are gone, will there be a chance for both sides to accept their respective outlooks, combine and analyze them, and finally agree on something and move on.

Until then,
will the flames of propaganda and debate burn.
:)

[Xaito]

I think all of you guys are mildly retarded.

welcome to the club - I'm sure you'll fit right in. :)

[RICHICOQUI]

"Imagine that Warsaw Pact would've won. And that Communism somehow triumphed over Capitalism" If it did this forum would not exist!!!

[Xaito]

What an irony! Polish soldier in Ghazni are at war an occupy Afghanistan just as a pure result of soviet engagement in Afghanistan 30 years ago.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree with your blame game.
I'm sure it's extremely convenient blaming the Soviet Union for everything instead of the actual enemy that is fought nowadays, your own people or their allies for wrong decisions whether then or now - makes everything so much easier doesn't it?

[Mr.K]

"Imagine that Warsaw Pact would've won. And that Communism somehow triumphed over Capitalism" If it did this forum would not exist!!!

You're completely off topic and if you live for MP.net, you might have a problem.

[Switek]

"Imagine that Warsaw Pact would've won. And that Communism somehow triumphed over Capitalism" If it did this forum would not exist!!!


And half of the globe would be irradiated... ;)

[Xaito]

And half of the globe would be irradiated... ;)

especially Poland p-)

[Zvezda]

All this is pretty much meaningless now. Exactly, The baltic countries are playing a crying game, a crying game mind you that isn't even well meaning.

[Mr.K]

And half of the globe would be irradiated... ;)

Switek, go to bed, seriously.

[Switek]

I think you're barking up the wrong tree with your blame game.
I'm sure it's extremely convenient blaming the Soviet Union for everything instead of the actual enemy that is fought nowadays, your own people or their allies for wrong decisions whether then or now - makes everything so much easier doesn't it?


The result of Soviet invasion in Afghanistan was completely destroying of the country. The next years of civil war led Afghanistan to middle ages... pure ground for extremism.

Those are facts, whether you like them or not.

[Switek]

especially Poland p-)

Poland triple...

[Mr.K]

The result of Soviet invasion in Afghanistan was completely destroying of the country. The next years of civil war led Afghanistan to middle ages... pure ground for extremism.

Those are facts, whether you like them or not.

There was a civil war before the Soviet "invasion". Good thing you don't write history booksp-)
Love how Poles twist facts. I remeber a friend of mine saying something along the lines of "Ah you sneaky Russians, you purposly chose the opening of the olympic games to invade Georgia, thinking we wouln't notice. We noticed! You lost!"

[Eye]

Switek, go to bed, seriously.
I hope he will be able to go to work tomorrow :)

[zg18]

The result of Soviet invasion in Afghanistan was completely destroying of the country. The next years of civil war led Afghanistan to middle ages... pure ground for extremism.

Those are facts, whether you like them or not.

That's bullsh*t , Soviets while they were in Afghanistan, built over 300 factories, roads, bridges and other infrastructure that almost turn Afghanistan to semi-modern communist state (in fact in state building Soviets were far more succsessful than NATO today) ,when they pulled out Pakistan violated all signed conventions and treaties by continuing arming and training mujaheedens that finally crushed central government in 1992 by US ally - Pakistan (i'm sure Indian forumers could confirm Pakistan involment in this and creation of extremist Islamic groups by it's secret services that escaped their control) , Soviets also tried not use to much firepower to harm civilians (contrary to Western propagande) and because of that had more manpower losses , this are pure facts without propagande from either Russian or American side, there is nothing positive about their invasions in that country ,certainly not for population but it's fair to conclude that Soviets did more in that country while they were in charge than Americans today.

[Eye]

Love how Poles twist facts. I remeber a friend of mine saying something along the lines of "Ah you sneaky Russians, you purposly chose the opening of the olympic games to invade Georgia, thinking we wouln't notice. We noticed! You lost!"
Wasn't Georgia invaded trying to regain control over part of its territory?

[Eye]

semi-modern communist state
Isn't it oxymoron?

[RICHICOQUI]

You're completely off topic and if you live for MP.net, you might have a problem. i took that quote that was posted here!!

[Switek]

That's bullsh*t , Soviets while they were in Afghanistan, built over 300 factories, roads, bridges and other infrastructure that almost turn Afghanistan to semi-modern communist state (in fact in state building Soviets were far more succsessful than NATO today) ,when they pulled out Pakistan violated all signed conventions and treaties by continuing arming and training mujaheedens that finally crushed central government in 1992 by US ally - Pakistan (i'm sure Indian forumers could confirm Pakistan involment in this and creation of extremist Islamic groups by it's secret services that escaped their control) , Soviets also tried not use to much firepower to harm civilians (contrary to Western propagande) and because of that had more manpower losses , this are pure facts without propagande from either Russian or American side, there is nothing positive about their invasions in that country ,certainly not for population but it's fair to conclude that Soviets did more in that country while they were in charge than Americans today.

Again soviet propaganda crap....

[User_Name]

Wasn't Georgia invaded trying to regain control over part of its territory?
Nope, Georgia was fukked because of shelling russian peacekeepers and civilians.

[zg18]

Isn't it oxymoron?

Not at all , Afghanistan is tribal country ,Soviets were unable to change that but they partially implemented some features of modern state, to be fair , i coudn't find better term in English. :|

[Mr.K]

Wasn't Georgia invaded trying to regain control over part of its territory?

Insted of arguing i sent her a link with the history of the conflict the next day. But i suppose its fasionable amog some people to rant about Russia and unmask their "clumsy evil plots". Makes them look modern, democratic and smart.
That territory didn't want to be part of Georgia, and the way they decided to regain control, well they won't want to be a part of Georgia for a long time
Anyways this has been discussed you can find the answer to your questions on MP.net


Not at all , Afghanistan is tribal country ,Soviets were unable to change that but they partially implemented some features of modern state, to be fair , i coudn't find better term in English. :|

There is no point of discussing this further and waisting internets. No matter how structured your argument is
You will get : Stalinist lies / Soviet Propaganda!p-)

[Switek]

There was a civil war before the Soviet "invasion". Good thing you don't write history booksp-)


Interesting... Civil war, you say. Well, AFAIK, there were some political revolts with limited number of causalities, a piece of cake, comparing what happened between 1978-89.

[TR1]

just ignore Switek guys, we already know what his argument is " Soviet propoganda" to everything.

Leave the special kid alone, ok?

[zg18]

Again soviet propaganda crap....

That's maybe true but your're posting American propaganda bullsh*t ,it stinks like cow "balega"

[matthew.manhorn]

Stalinism was gone since Kruschev's destalinization for about 4 decades.

Soviet Union's gone for almost 2 decades now.

I don't see Russians remembering their soldiers who were killed by the Nazi collaborating Baltic troops.

[Eye]

I don't see Russians remembering their soldiers who were killed by the Nazi collaborating Baltic troops.
I almost can understand that collaboration. Just enemy of your enemy is your friend.

[Kilgor]

Stalinism was gone since Kruschev's destalinization for about 4 decades.

.

And it was slowly rehabilitated with successive leaders after Khrushchev ...

[Teme]

Here is a reminder about earlier thread:


Stalin archives confiscated in Russia
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=147466
Today's Russia cannot be blamed for the actions of homicidal and cynical tyrant but they can be held morally accountable if they are trying to brush up his crimes under the carpet.

[Kilgor]

Here is a reminder about earlier thread:

Today's Russia cannot be blamed for the actions of homicidal and cynical tyrant but they can be held morally accountable if they are trying to brush up his crimes under the carpet.

Its being done already.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2004/08/20/russian_textbooks_omit_soviets146_dark_chapters/

[Bachelor]

just ignore Switek guys, we already know what his argument is " Soviet propoganda" to everything.
Leave the special kid alone, ok?
Yes. For him it as "I'm in a hole" - nothing to respond...
Ayyy!!!

The result of Soviet invasion in Afghanistan was completely destroying of the country. The next years of civil war led Afghanistan to middle ages... pure ground for extremism.
Those are facts, whether you like them or not.

What do Polish soldiers in Afghanistan now? They are visitors on wedding? No! Polish soldiers crusading in Afghanistan. They shoot there some years. Poland is similar Soviet Union and play games like SU in old time. Switek! Look at a mirror. Are you see the communist?

About the thread...
Russia must keeps quiet as Baltics remember Stalin’s deportations... Or... I must keeps quiet as Baltics remember Stalin’s deportations... Or somebody in Russia...
Because Baltics keeps quiet as Russian remember Stalin’s Genocide to Russian. Because Baltics keeps quiet as Russian remember as Waffen SS volunteers of Baltic countries came to Russia and killed Russian citizens... Because Baltics keeps quiet as Russian remember as Waffen SS volunteers of Baltic countries came to Russia and participated in blockade of Leningrad (Where died a lot of simple Russian people.). Because veterans Waffen SS march in Baltic countries now. Because Baltics keeps quiet as Russian remember as The first division of Red Army killed Russian citizens. For a reminder. The one of the first regular division of Red Army were the Latvian Rifle Division. There were mercenaries on Lenin's money. Lenin paid - they killed. Do you know "Red Terror" in 1918-22? Do you know Mārtiņš Lācis (Jānis Sudrabs)? Look - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Latsis

I can continue and say more about "kind and fair" Baltics...

Russia will not be pay for Stalin and the Soviet union. In this case, Baltic countries will be pay for volunteers of Waffen SS, Mārtiņš Lācis, Latvian Rifle Divisions... Georgia will be pay for Georgian Stalin, Beria....

Russia RIP for Baltics as well as about Russian victims in Stalin's camps.

[Kilgor]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Yes. For him it as "I'm in a hole" - nothing to respond...
Ayyy!!!


[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]What do Polish soldiers in Afghanistan now? They are visitors on wedding? No! Polish soldiers crusading in Afghanistan. They shoot there some years. Poland is similar Soviet Union and play games like SU in old time. Switek! Look at a mirror. Are you see the communist?

About the thread...
Russia must keeps quiet as Baltics remember Stalin’s deportations... Or... I must keeps quiet as Baltics remember Stalin’s deportations... Or somebody in Russia...
Because Baltics keeps quiet as Russian remember Stalin’s Genocide to Russian. Because Baltics keeps quiet as Russian remember as Waffen SS volunteers of Baltic countries came to Russia and killed Russian citizens... Because Baltics keeps quiet as Russian remember as Waffen SS volunteers of Baltic countries came to Russia and participated in blockade of Leningrad (Where died a lot of simple Russian people.). Because veterans Waffen SS march in Baltic countries now. Because Baltics keeps quiet as Russian remember as The first division of Red Army killed Russian citizens. For a reminder. The one of the first regular division of Red Army were the Latvian Rifle Division. There were mercenaries on Lenin's money. Lenin paid - they killed. Do you know "Red Terror" in 1918-22? Do you know Mārtiņš Lācis (Jānis Sudrabs)? Look - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Latsis

I can continue and say more about "kind and fair" Baltics...

Russia will not be pay for Stalin and the Soviet union. In this case, Baltic countries will be pay for volunteers of Waffen SS, Mārtiņš Lācis, Latvian Rifle Divisions... Georgia will be pay for Georgian Stalin, Beria....

Russia RIP for Baltics as well as about Russian victims in Stalin's camps.

I find it strange that Russians lecture the Baltics on Nazi collaboration.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/MolotovRibbentropStalin.jpg

[Karaahmetoglu]

Being Turkic person from the North Caucasus myself the only person/peoples I blame this on is Stalin and his cabinet ministers. Do you blame the whole German nation for WW2 no, you blame the guy who gave out the orders.

[Bachelor]

I find it strange that Russians lecture the Baltics on Nazi collaboration.


What strange? It fact!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Legion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Estonian)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-J16133%2C_Lettland%3B_Appell_der_SS-Legion.jpg


http://hahaha.com.ua/files/ba172ec187d0dcece8fa362e97424681.jpg


And... Why you show Georgian Stalin on photo?
I do not see Nazis and Waffen SS on photo...

"Baltic's Nazism" online:
http://vkinoshke.ru/documentals/6165-Smotret_nbsp_Nacizm_po_pribaltiiyski_online_onlaiyn.html

"They have sworn to Hitler" online:
http://vkinoshke.ru/documentals/5742-Smotret_nbsp_Oni_prisyagnuli_Gitleru_onlaiyn_online.html

[Kilgor]

How many Hiwi's fought for the Germans ?

[Flamming_Python]

Stalin was Soviet above all. So was Beria. So was everyone who was in charge of the USSR, regardless of their ethnic origin. This whole process of ruffling through the USSR to find the right ethnic group to blame for this or that is ridiculous. Everyone was in the same boat.

You can find any injustice you care for, but the USSR was so complex; an order can be signed by a Tajik, approved by a Russian and implemented by a Moldovan. Who to blame?


The result of Soviet invasion in Afghanistan was completely destroying of the country. The next years of civil war led Afghanistan to middle ages... pure ground for extremism.

Those are facts, whether you like them or not.

That's great but what has that have to do with the reasons the USSR invaded Afghanistan?

[sup_tech]

That's great but what has that have to do with the reasons the USSR invaded Afghanistan?

Just trolln'.

[Havoc345]

Stalin was Soviet above all. So was Beria. So was everyone who was in charge of the USSR, regardless of their ethnic origin. This whole process of ruffling through the USSR to find the right ethnic group to blame for this or that is ridiculous. Everyone was in the same boat.

You can find any injustice you care for, but the USSR was so complex; an order can be signed by a Tajik, approved by a Russian and implemented by a Moldovan. Who to blame?


My sentiments exactly as it seems that in post-Soviet Russia many want to look back on the early Soviet leaders as being radical Jews, Poles or other foreigners to paint a picture of the helpless Russian citizenry being kidnapped by foreign Bolsheviks. This mainly comes from the revisionist Tsar-loving tripe coming out of Russia today

[dimasorokine]

Stalin Killed everyone, indiscriminately and with equal brutality...the ethnic group that suffered most were Russians. No Russian in their right mind would apologize or somehow expect his country (which had nothing to do with the deportations) to apologize for Stalin's crimes.

Furthermore, if one was to speak about the PRESENT the Baltics have more to apologize about to a large percentage of their population who happen to be ethnic Russian's and are treated as unwanted, second class citizens (if you can call them that).

-Dima

[Havoc345]

Stalin Killed everyone, indiscriminately and with equal brutality...the ethnic group that suffered most were Russians. No Russian in their right mind would apologize or somehow expect his country (which had nothing to do with the deportations) to apologize for Stalin's crimes.

-Dima

No ****, but the Jews arguably had it the worst with all the pogroms of the Tsar and the later Soviet suppression of Jewish culture and religion.

[dimasorokine]

No ****, but the Jews arguably had it the worst with all the pogroms of the Tsar and the later Soviet suppression of Jewish culture and religion.

What does that have to do with the Baltics?

And I'm glad you threw in "arguably" because thats about the only thing that makes sense in your post...While the Jews had it bad, so did everyone else - and everyone else's culture DID suffer. Jews played a prominent role in the Soviet Union's history and the birth of Communism in the nation, they even had their own "Autonomous Oblast" created by Stalin himself.

Let's not play this card here, the people who suffered most within Russia throughout its troubled history are Russians.

-Dima

[sup_tech]

Oh yeah? What about suppression of Russian culture and genocide of Russian population by the Jewish commissars during the Civil war?

[LineDoggie]

And so goes another chapter in the "Notme" societies Revision Dance.

Apparently, every single Russian was Held Captive for 70 years by a Collection of minorities of Foreign birth. These insidious Foreigners forced them to side with the Reich,Occupy the Baltic States, Invade Finland, then fight the Reich, Invade Finland again, then occupy the Baltic states again, all against their will. This immense struggle to throw off Foreign shackles was only won in the 1990's :roll:

Frankly, Holding Russians today responsible for the Kulak Liquidations, Purges, Katyn, and the rest is like Blaming todays Germans for the Somme in 1916, or Virginians for Slavery. It's history to be remembered for sure, but it aint gonna get you anywhere to blame people born 30+ years later.

My Neighbor who was a Marine on Guadalcanal, Cape Gloucester, Okinawa etc. hated Japanese of his age group with a Passion till the day he died, but not the kids born 1942 onwards.

[little icebear]

Oh yeah? What about suppression of Russian culture and genocide of Russian population by the Jewish commissars during the Civil war?

Jewish? And I thought there where only Soviets who did bad things... no nationalities or ethnicities involved here.
Unless they fought alongside the Nazis, that is...

LOL. Jews commited genocide against Russians. You´re a genius, man...

[LineDoggie]

What strange? It fact!





http://hahaha.com.ua/files/ba172ec187d0dcece8fa362e97424681.jpg
[/URL]


Here are other Facts about Nazi Collaboration

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact (http://)

[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo-NKVD_Conferences

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet-German_cooperation

Oh snap!

Nice picture, you do realize you just opened yourself up for anti russian Propaganda pictures as well with that flamebait?

[LineDoggie]

I find it strange that Russians lecture the Baltics on Nazi collaboration.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/MolotovRibbentropStalin.jpgWell Done............

[little icebear]

like Blaming todays Germans for the Somme in 1916

Since our Eastern European and Eurasian friends had a nice go at getting all nationalistic around here, I´d like to jump in here on ze Fatherland´s behalf as well, ecspecially since both my grandpa´s and my grandma´s dads on my mother´s side of the familiy tree where amongst those Germans, someone might be inclined to blame... p-)

Unlike WW2, WW1 can hardly be regarded as an epic battle good vs. evil, but rather a war between consenting adults, ehm, I mean: nations.
Granted, ze Kaiser was not much of a peaceloving treehugger and he certainly was in ze position to avoid a war if he had wanted to, but nevertheless... you catch my drift.

[Flamming_Python]

My sentiments exactly as it seems that in post-Soviet Russia many want to look back on the early Soviet leaders as being radical Jews, Poles or other foreigners to paint a picture of the helpless Russian citizenry being kidnapped by foreign Bolsheviks. This mainly comes from the revisionist Tsar-loving tripe coming out of Russia today

x2

Nationalist Russians blame the USSR on Jews
Nationalist Balts and Ukrainians blame the USSR on Russians
Nationalist Jews blame the USSR on.... Balts and Ukrainians?

This **** leads nowhere


Oh yeah? What about suppression of Russian culture and genocide of Russian population by the Jewish commissars during the Civil war?

Here we go again... :cantbeli:

[Flamming_Python]

Since our Eastern European and Eurasian friends had a nice go at getting all nationalistic around here, I´d like to jump in here on ze Fatherland´s behalf as well, ecspecially since both my grandpa´s and my grandma´s dads on my mother´s side of the familiy tree where amongst those Germans, someone might be inclined to blame... p-)

Unlike WW2, WW1 can hardly be regarded as an epic battle good vs. evil, but rather a war between consenting adults, ehm, I mean: nations.
Granted, ze Kaiser was not much of a peaceloving treehugger and he certainly was in ze position to avoid a war if he had wanted to, but nevertheless... you catch my drift.

I think we can agree that WW2 wasn't much of a battle between good and evil either; seeing as the main actors were colonialists, stalinists and nazis. The USA was probably the most moral of the bunch, if it makes you happy.

That said, i'm sure glad my side won, at least we didn't have any creepy racial theories.

[sup_tech]

Jewish? And I thought there where only Soviets who did bad things... no nationalities or ethnicities involved here.
Unless they fought alongside the Nazis, that is...
LOL. Jews commited genocide against Russians. You´re a genius, man...
A significant number of ethnic Jews among Bolshevik leadership during the October Revolution and commissars among soviet leadership during the Civil War including ChK/NKVD and up to the rein of Stalin's regime is a well-established historical fact. I am sorry if you didn't know that. If you study Nazi's propaganda aimed at USSR populace during the WW2 you'll find lots of mentioning of that.

[little icebear]

A significant number of ethnic Jews among Bolshevik leadership during the October Revolution and commissars among soviet leadership during the Civil War including ChK/NKVD and up to the rein of Stalin's regime is a well-established historical fact. I am sorry if you didn't know that.

Which makes it a Jewish plot to commit genocide (!!!) on Russians, executed by... Russians (!!!).
Dang, these Juice are smart!


If you study Nazi's propaganda aimed at USSR populace during the WW2 you'll find lots of mentioning of that.

Fvcking A, man! Unbelievable... The Juice are the source of all evil, see: Even Göbbels says so!

[little icebear]

The USA was probably the most moral of the bunch, if it makes you happy.


Granted, it isn´t very difficult to look like the white knight when you´re fighting against the Nazis... you don´t get involved in a war because of altruistic motives - but still: The western allies certainly where the most "moral" of the bunch.

[sup_tech]

Well as far as remember you were trying to tell us about Russian (!!!) genocide of Jews. So I turned it around and let you try your own medicine. It doesn't taste good doesn't it?

And as far as know the genocide was committed by internationalists including but not limed to Ukrainians, Polacks, Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians. And yes, Russians were involved too. But it doesn't contradict the facts of which I mentioned earlier.

[little icebear]

Well as far as remember you were trying to tell us about Russian (!!!) genocide of Jews.

Say what?!

While Jews have been persecuted throughout many centuries and pretty much everywhere in Europe, the only act that deserves to be called a genocide took place on my countrymens behalf...

[TakeIt]

No apologies. Only facts.

[CPL Trevoga]

Judging by the number of former SS men marching in Baltics nowdays, looks like Uncle Joe sent the innocent people to Siberia. Maybe Russia and Latvia, Estonia can issue apologies to each other and everything will be better.

I personally don't hold grudge against Latvian and Estonian or Georgian people for crimes committed by few, because sons are not responsible for the crimes of fathers.

[sup_tech]

This is pointless.

Have a nice day.

[dimasorokine]

While many members here mock the Russian belief that Russians suffered at the hands of "outsiders", most fail to think deep enough about why that belief exists in the first place, and simply throw around insulting accusations of "conspiracy theories" assuming Russians are simple minded xenophobes...

For those of you that are interested in only 1 point of view, for once consider this:

Russia in the time of the Bolsheviks and Stalin had by far the most ethnically / nationally diverse government in the world - Especially when you compare it to the US, UK, Germany, France etc. etc. of the same time period. Add to that immense human losses, suffering and hardships inflicted on the Russian people by their leaders one can understand without too much effort why these theories exist.

This is why when someone makes a half assed, blatantly disrespectful and ignorant accusation about Russians being the bad guys AND at the same time accuses us of being xenophobes and anti-Semites WHILE being a Russophobe themselves...well, you just look like a grade A asshole.

-Dima

[omghihi]

So those who portrayed and named (literally, as per famous POTUS quote) USSR 'Empire of Evil' paid little attenion to the fact that Stalin and his 'cult of personality' were immediately abolished in the late-50'sthey still forgot to dissolve the communist party and the union with it.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

they still forgot to dissolve the communist party and the union with it.

That's because Stalin's 'magnates' just basically carried on with 'business as usual'

[Snoshi]

A significant number of ethnic Jews among Bolshevik leadership during the October Revolution and commissars among soviet leadership during the Civil War including ChK/NKVD and up to the rein of Stalin's regime is a well-established historical fact. I am sorry if you didn't know that. If you study Nazi's propaganda aimed at USSR populace during the WW2 you'll find lots of mentioning of that.

One of the most typical "Russian" responses you can hear today..

"We Russians did not do anything!, it was the Jews that created Communism and killed all the ethic Russians!"

Somehow the Jews always get the blame.

[Switek]

just ignore Switek guys, we already know what his argument is " Soviet propoganda" to everything.

Leave the special kid alone, ok?


No it's just your lack of your arguments. Be so kind and prove I'm wrong but by posting core facts, not communist propaganda from 1980's newspapers...

The most miserable is you won't be able. But it's typical that you try to ignore just facts.

[Switek]

What do Polish soldiers in Afghanistan now? They are visitors on wedding? No! Polish soldiers crusading in Afghanistan. They shoot there some years. Poland is similar Soviet Union and play games like SU in old time. Switek! Look at a mirror. Are you see the communist?.

No, Poles are at war to clean up all **** what remained inter alia after your invasion 1978-89, Brezhnev kid.

[Switek]

Here you are... seems you really do not know the history of your nation...

http://triton.imageshack.us/Himg140/scaled.php?server=140&filename=bundesarchivbild183n030.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-280-1075-10A%2C_Russland%2C_Borislaw_Kaminski.jpg/450px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-280-1075-10A%2C_Russland%2C_Borislaw_Kaminski.jpg

[TakeIt]

No, Poles are at war to clean up all **** what remained inter alia after your invasion 1978-89, Brezhnev kid.

Switek, please answer how many times Soviet Union was asked by Afghanistan goverment to lend support and how many times Poland was asked the same? Also, by cleaning do you mean destroying schools, roads, hospitals etc, constructed by USSR forces or something else? Also i'm very interested in anything else beyond killing, that was done by poles in Afghanistan.

[Switek]

Switek, please answer how many times Soviet Union was asked by Afghanistan goverment to lend support and how many times Poland was asked the same? Also, by cleaning do you mean destroying schools, roads, hospitals etc, constructed by USSR forces or something else? Also i'm very interested in anything else beyond killing, that was done by poles in Afghanistan.


Did democratically elected government asked? Did they? If not, stop making fool of yourself...

[TakeIt]

Did democratically elected government asked? Did they? If not, stop making fool of yourself... Oh, magic word "democracy".. What democracy has to do with my question? It was a working goverment, that was internationally accepted. So, since obviously you're ignorant about SU/A-stan relations, who asked poles to go to A-stan?

[Switek]

Take It, I'm wasting time trying to discuss with you as long as your knowledge is based on soviet propaganda crap.

Soviet Union - Afghanistan relations those times were a mirror reflection of USA engagement in some Latin American countries. Nothing special... but completely different from BS you've just posted.

[Holycrusader]

One of the most typical "Russian" responses you can hear today..

"We Russians did not do anything!, it was the Jews that created Communism and killed all the ethic Russians!"

Somehow the Jews always get the blame.

In Poland people call that "Żydokomuna".You are getting the blame here as well ;).. So its not only Russians who think that. Its quaite popular way of thinking in Eastern Europe...

[daily666]

What does Russia have to do with what Soviet Union did.

Oh funny. Stalin the leader that took out the Nazis = good leader of the SU and Russia. Stalin the tyrant and murderer = Georgian. What a ****ing hypocrisy.

[lightfire]

This thread really leads nowhere. Ignorance and denial of fact is obvious, but there's nothing else to be expected today. It's pointless to debate over the issue, since one side is not willing to listen, the other can not find a way to deal with the past and wrap it up for the present in order to reach some goals.

[widi243]

Its a two-way street. Russia loves to take credit for "defeating Germany" etc. so why not this as well...

good point !

[TakeIt]

Take It, I'm wasting time trying to discuss with you as long as your knowledge is based on soviet propaganda crap. Another magical word - "propaganda". You're being repetitous. Out of arguments?


Soviet Union - Afghanistan relations those times were a mirror reflection of USA engagement in some Latin American countries.And that sentence was typed for what purpose, Switek?


Nothing special... but completely different from BS you've just posted.I simply asked - who invited poles on A-stan soil? Soviet Union was asked to support a goverment, that was obviously more progressive than any of the previous ones. Initiative came from that goverment alone, and proposals were made(and rejected) not once and not twice. Yet by the active suport of your current benefactors a new dark ages fell upon A-stan.

You were quick to judge soviet actions as an "invasion" and polish actions as "cleaning a soviet mess". On what basis? Self-righteous blindness? Or whim of a new masters? Or simple desire to be a good servant? Thiese are simple questions.

[Xaito]

No, Poles are at war to clean up all **** what remained inter alia after your invasion 1978-89, Brezhnev kid.

and there I thought Poles are at war to please its sugar daddy... p-)

[Switek]

and there I thought Poles are at war to please its sugar daddy... p-)



In opposition to Soviet times, an Afghanistan is now under international responsibility...

[Mr.Woland]

Sh1t. I'm fail. Wrong thread post

[TakeIt]

In opposition to Soviet times, an Afghanistan is now under international responsibility... :cantbeli: Couldn't be funnier.. Let me quote ya "Did democratically elected government asked? Did they? If not, stop making fool of yourself"...

[Mr.Woland]

A. Dukov.
http://a-dyukov.livejournal.com/227022.html#cutid1
http://common.regnum.ru/documents/mif-o-genocide.pdf

[Mr.Woland]

In opposition to Soviet times, an Afghanistan is now under international responsibility...
HeHe.
Sounds like "It is democracy. We are the majority and we can do all what we want ! !"
PS.
In USSR was 15 republics....

[tommy00]

Let's bring more discoveris of mr.Djukov...

По моему мнению, именно действия прибалтийских националистов, за короткое время уничтоживших десятки тысяч евреев, подсказали нацистскому руководству идею "окончательного решения еврейского вопроса". Вторгаясь в СССР, нацисты предусматривали уничтожение части евреев и изоляцию остальных в гетто. Прибалтийские националисты впервые продемонстрировали возможность поголовного уничтожения евре

So, nazis learn "holocaust" from "baltic people"...:rofl:

[Mr.Woland]

Let's bring more discoveris of mr.Djukov...
So, nazis learn "holocaust" from "baltic people"...:rofl:
Suvorovs stile of discussion ?
Cut the quotation and make a conclusion.

[Switek]

HeHe.
Sounds like "It is democracy. We are the majority and we can do all what we want ! !"
PS.
In USSR was 15 republics....


USSR second name was "a prison of nations"... p-)

[Mr.Woland]

USSR second name was "a prison of nations"... p-)
Fairy told you about it ?

[lightfire]

Fairy told you about it ?

if you'd lived through those times as one of those "free republics", you'd know.

[TakeIt]

if you'd lived through those times as one of those "free republics", you'd know.Oh, did you?

[Dercius]

USSR second name was "a prison of nations"... p-)

You are messing it up Switek that quotation was for Autro-Hungarian Empire before WW1

[tommy00]

Oh, did you?

I did,...how about you?

[lightfire]

^^

so did I. And even if I was a kid, I could see the affects of the blockade very well, not to mention January 1991 with "peaceful soviet soldiers" assisting comrade workers and killing 14 people just that the "free soviet republic" keep on course and stay in soviet paradise.

[TakeIt]

I did,...how about you? So am i. Best period of my life so far. Oh, lightfire, you're squeesing a tear out of me, really. Ever heard of special economic position of Baltic republics?

[Switek]

You are messing it up Switek that quotation was for Autro-Hungarian Empire before WW1


Well, may be. I found descriptions about USSR as a "prison of nations" from illegal leaflets and independent, underground press in 1980's...

Comparing to USSR, Austro-Hungary were just a spa... p-)

[lightfire]

So am i. Best period of my life so far. Oh, lightfire, you're squeesing a tear out of me, really. Ever heard of special economic position of Baltic republics?

No surprises. Not sayin' this is similar with you, but most of the people who miss the soviet paradise are poor losers, who used to stick with the commodities of the kolhoz, stealing from the jobs, drinking there and so on. Those who never managed to adapt to the new realities.

I really do not care of special economic status. The magazines were empty and ques were long both in Baltic countries and the other parts of SU during it's last years. I mean, **** that status, we wanted freedom, not the friggin status. And at first what did we get? A Blockade and then the January events, when, like I said, democratic Soviet regime wanted to keep us in their soviet paradise, which Switek described as a "prison" . Point.

[TakeIt]

No surprises. Not sayin' this is similar with you, but most of the people who miss the soviet paradise are poor losers, who used to stick with the commodities of the kolhoz, stealing from the jobs, drinking there and so on. Those who never managed to adapt to the new realities. :cantbeli: Wow, you've got a very dark imagination when you were a kid... And it shows. Parental abuse, lack of friends? Take a pill.. By saying such arrogant stupidity you insult millions of people.. But i know you don't care..


I really do not care of special economic status. Actually you should. You know that knowledge is light, currently you are in the darkness. I'll just skip that pointless rant of yours..

[Switek]

:cantbeli: Wow, you've got a very dark imagination when you were a kid... And it shows. Parental abuse, lack of friends? Take a pill.. By saying such arrogant stupidity you insult millions of people.. But i know you don't care...

The personal attacks are not accepted. If you do not have merit arguments just shut your mouths up.

Reported.

[TakeIt]

The personal attacks are not accepted. If you do not have merit arguments just shut your mouths up.Hm, you still didn't answered the question about poles in A-stan.


Reported.Interesting, did you reported him too for naming me a drunkard, looser and thief, as well as painting as such several tens of millions people?

[Switek]

Take It, I'm wasting time trying to discuss with you as long as your knowledge is based on soviet propaganda crap.

Can you read?

[Holycrusader]

The personal attacks are not accepted. If you do not have merit arguments just shut your mouths up.

Reported.


No you're a simple dump like many other Russian mp.net members (...).

I found a little hypocrite here....

that "dump" is sweet :)

You should reported yourselv...

[peter.pl]

Poland is part of NATO, NATO was asked for help :roll:
Switek and everyone, don't feed a troll, he is trolling in many threads, just ignore Takeit... I hope he will be banned soon.

[Xaito]

not to mention January 1991 with "peaceful soviet soldiers" assisting comrade workers and killing 14 people just that the "free soviet republic" keep on course and stay in soviet paradise.

civilian deaths while pursuing your interests are common even these days - no need to act like the Soviet Union invented it or was just out for blood.
Don't misunderstand me - I think it can be good to criticize the flaws and wrongdoings of the SU or any other country/union so we can learn from it - but for that it has to be done in a constructive way.
The way it's done these days is usually to blame Russia for whatever reasons - because it's chic, because one has an agenda etc and it's done in a extremely superficial way.
The results are sour relationships because nobody wants to listen to or try to understand the other - many little cold wars on a small scale if you want.

[tommy00]

So am i. Best period of my life so far.

A intresting question, on wich i haven't found a answer yet. SU and Russia, such a wonderful countrys, a best period in a life and so,.....so why did you(or your parents) escape from there....(and still do)..

[TakeIt]

A intresting question, on wich i haven't found a answer yet.You should simply asked, so far i answered all questions, directed at me.


SU and Russia, such a wonderful countrys, a best period in a life and so,.....so why did you(or your parents) escape from there....(and still do)..Why do you think i escaped? Actually more than half of my familily already emigrated to Russia, in 1-2 years i'm planning too, can't now because of the grandparents, they're too sick to move.

Switek, you found a very comfortable way of awoiding discussion by chanting "propaganda" on anything that doesn't suit you. I hope you outgrow this.

[Switek]

I found a little hypocrite here....

that "dump" is sweet :)

You should reported yourselv...


It'd be a little retarded... :)

Well I can see a difference between calling someone dumb and making allusions about ****** abuse. Can you?

[Xaito]

so why did you(or your parents) escape from there....(and still do)..

I don't know about his family but I can answer for mine.
My parents moved 1993 to Germany because that's when the chaotic break up brought a lot of uncertainty and instability with it - my parents moved because they had two children - my brother and me - and thought it would be better if we grew up in stable political and social situation.
My family and many relatives were quite happy and successful during Soviet times.
I can't say how things would be for me if I still lived in Russia but my parents were doing a lot better in Russia then in Germany - especially my mother who was engineer in Russia and now basically has no recognized profession in Germany.

[lightfire]

:cantbeli: Wow, you've got a very dark imagination when you were a kid... And it shows. Parental abuse, lack of friends? Take a pill.. By saying such arrogant stupidity you insult millions of people.. But i know you don't care..



I'm not commenting your personal najezd, it's been reported. To make clear, however:


No surprises. Not sayin' this is similar with you, but most of the people who miss the soviet paradise are poor losers, who used to stick with the commodities of the kolhoz, stealing from the jobs, drinking there and so on. Those who never managed to adapt to the new realities.

as for the other, I rest my case, I've seen lots of such people. Drunkards, hopless loosers, who failed because of the new system. NOT ALL, who did not make it, but still, many. Particularry those, who march with red flag, full of revanshizm and glorify the soviet rule. Since you were speaking of "some best years", it reminded me those loosers. Since I d not know you, I can't say you one of them, yet you might have a potential.


Actually you should. You know that knowledge is light, currently you are in the darkness. I'll just skip that pointless rant of yours..

as for this, it's your ignorance you fail to notice. We did not need your special status, we did not ask you to come in the first place, except for some douche bags, who in civilized vocabulary have a name - quislings. We wanted freedom and it was met with blockade and bullets, that killed 14 civilians. In the end we got freedom.


civilian deaths while pursuing your interests are common even these days - no need to act like the Soviet Union invented it or was just out for blood.

Yes, I realize, SU wasn't the first one to do so, nor the last one. It does not however legitimize it's actions. It's not commonly accepted as OK. I pointed out this example to prove that soviet paradise is actually a prison.


Don't misunderstand me - I think it can be good to criticize the flaws and wrongdoings of the SU or any other country/union so we can learn from it - but for that it has to be done in a constructive way.

Imagine a constructive way to criticize SU in SU times. Are you joking? Yet we did in very constructive way and used Glastnost and Perestroika quite well. We had elections and declared independence, Is that not a constructive way, when most of the people want it, or should it be regarded as a signal to overthrow the elected government?



The way it's done these days is usually to blame Russia for whatever reasons - because it's chic, because one has an agenda etc and it's done in a extremely superficial way.

for instance?



The results are sour relationships because nobody wants to listen to or try to understand the other - many little cold wars on a small scale if you want.

I agree with this. Well let's try already..

[TakeIt]

Well I can see a difference between calling someone dumb and making allusions about ****** abuse. Can you? Ahem, ****** abuse :oops:? Where?

[Holycrusader]

It'd be a little retarded... :)

Well I can see a difference between calling someone dumb and making allusions about ****** abuse. Can you?

Both things are personnal attack. His post was on this thread level, if you reported him you should as well reported half of people posting here.

Do you guys want to discuss something, or you want only insult yourselvs?

[Red_Rage]

Take It, I'm wasting time trying to discuss with you as long as your knowledge is based on soviet propaganda crap.



Can you read?


You're a ****, who avoids answering questions by coming up with ridicolous excuses and accusations.

[TakeIt]

as for the other, I rest my case, I've seen lots of such people. Drunkards, hopless loosers, who failed because of the new system. NOT ALL, who did not make it, but still, many.Please, no need to back off now. You already said "most of the people". Of course i could just asked how many is "most", since before the break up Soviet Union was populated by ~287 millions of people, and nearly half of them missed SU wholeheartedly, especially older generation. But here you are, painting most of them as thieves, drunkards and losers.. Do i had to go into details? Great confidence you had there..


Since I d not know you, I can't say you one of them, yet you might have a potential. Wow, and it's you reported me for insulting you..:cantbeli: Jeez..


as for this, it's your ignorance you fail to notice.I know my limitations, thank you.


We did not need your special status, Actually you did. Why are you arguing? Republic income stayed inside and was managed according to the local needs. Only that which was deemed necessary was submitted to general SU treasury.


we did not ask you to come in the first place,That is irrelevant, those who want freedom never seize to fight for it. Only when SU started to fall apart various independence/"independence" movements arose.

[Xaito]

Imagine a constructive way to criticize SU in SU times. Are you joking?

I'm talking about today - now that the SU is history.
Post SU situation is complicated and challenging enough without personal feelings of some people playing into political agendas and hamper pragmatic cooperation.


It's not commonly accepted as OK.
it depends.
For me the western community widely accepted things it shouldn't have - Georgian attack on S. Ossetia for example.

[Eye]

Why do you think i escaped? Actually more than half of my familily already emigrated to Russia, in 1-2 years i'm planning too, can't now because of the grandparents, they're too sick to move.


OK, OK. So you are jailed in one of the imperialistic countries now. But why did you emigrate from Russia? Why did you end best period of your life?

And if only living in SU was the best period of your life, maybe you just belonged to red "bourgeoisie"? Some ancestors in NKVD?

[Eye]

For me the western community widely accepted things it shouldn't have - Georgian attack on S. Ossetia for example.
S. Ossetia is a part of Georgia, so it can't be attacked by itself.

[Mr.Woland]

S. Ossetia is a part of Georgia, so it can't be attacked by itself.
Really ?
Go and tell it in Cchinval.

[Dark-Angel25]

This Russia-Poland war will never end.

[Frutzel]

It'd be a little retarded... :)

Well I can see a difference between calling someone dumb and making allusions about ****** abuse. Can you?

You know whats retarded? Avoiding questions with stupid excuses....and there is no difference between you. You insulted him and he insulted you

[Xaito]

S. Ossetia is a part of Georgia, so it can't be attacked by itself.
Soviet republics were part of Soviet Union - yet nowadays some people claim some of them against their will and there is criticism of Soviet methods to manage "itself".

[Bolt]

Here you are... seems you really do not know the history of your nation...

http://triton.imageshack.us/Himg140/scaled.php?server=140&filename=bundesarchivbild183n030.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-280-1075-10A%2C_Russland%2C_Borislaw_Kaminski.jpg/450px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-280-1075-10A%2C_Russland%2C_Borislaw_Kaminski.jpg

I really, really don't understand why are you keep bringing Vlasov? He was hanged after the war, a lot of ROA POW that were captured didn't make it to see next sunrise, as it's one thing to fight against other nation and completely other - to kill people of your nation. They were traitors, Vlasov was a traitor, and they (sadly, not all) got was they've deserved.
Now, Switek, with all your wisdom please explain, what does this **** has to do with the thread? Russians collaborated with Nazis? Yes, some of them did. After they were crushed - Nazis and their little bitches, a lot of who's descendants like to portray them as Freedom-fighters - what kind of Freedom fighting is this, if you're volunteerely taking arms and help a country, that occupies your nation? Did all those SS Estonian or Latvian Legions try to fight against the Nazis? And after this they are freedom fighters?? - so after they were crushed, and the Soviet Union fell, do they have any monuments dedicated to ROA fighters in Russia? Do they have marches of former ROA soldiers? Do they have at least a special day of Rememberance of those dogs?
No. They do not. Switek, read my lips: some Russians collaborated with Germany during the war, but they are being held as traitors even today. Then why the f*ck do you bring this issue?

Not only Latvians and Estonians collaborated with them, but nowadays these SS soldiers, who according to Nurnberg trial, are held as war criminals, they are being officialy praised in these countries.
Lithuania from these 3 countries is the one that has at least some moral ground - they did not agree to form Legions, that's why some were shot, and other opressed. However, there were still some volunteer ****s which helped to make this country completely Juden-frei - 96% of whole Jewish population in Lithuania was exterminated. There is no other country that managed to "achieve" such results.

So, nazis learn "holocaust" from "baltic people"...:rofl:
Yes, when people mention that the Baltics collaborated with Nazis, including in the Holocaust and they were active followers of this idea, they have a point. For example, first Jewish pogroms in Kaunas happened before Germans captured the city. Only in Summer pogroms in 1941 in Lithuania participated up to 25 000 civilians.


as for the other, I rest my case, I've seen lots of such people. Drunkards, hopless loosers, who failed because of the new system. NOT ALL, who did not make it, but still, many. Particularry those, who march with red flag, full of revanshizm and glorify the soviet rule. Since you were speaking of "some best years", it reminded me those loosers

How do you feel living in a country full of loosers?


32 % komunistinę sistemą įvertino 7 ir daugiau balų, t.y. kaip gerą ir labai gerą, 22 %- vertino šią sistemą kaip vidutinę (5 ir 6 balais) ir tik 31 % manė, kad ši sistema buvo „bloga“ ar „labai bloga“ (įvertino 4 balais ir mažiau). 15 % respondentų neturėjo nuomonės šiuo klausimu.Buvusios sovietinės sistemos vertinimas priklauso nuo gyventojų amžiaus, išsimokslinimo ir gyvenamosios vietos. Jaunesnioji karta (18 -35 metų amžiaus gyventojai) prasčiau vertina komunistinę sistemą negu vyresni šalies gyventojai: net 61 % 18 – 25 metų ir 44 % 26 – 35 metų amžiaus respondentų ją vertino blogai, tuo tarpu 36 metų amžiaus ir vyresnių respondentų grupėse blogai vertinančių šią sistemą buvo mažiau nei 32 %.

Tuomet gerai ir labai gerai komunistinę sistemą vertino Rusijoje – 40 %, Vengrijoje – 31 %, Lietuvoje – 30 %, Rumunijoje – 28 %, Bulgarijoje – 26 %, Lenkijoje – 24 %, Slovėnijoje – 21 %, Estijoje – 18 %, Latvijoje – 17 %, Čekijoje – 14 % gyventojų
Do I need to translate this or there is no need and you will shut up?

[ilmakas]

I think we can agree that WW2 wasn't much of a battle between good and evil either; seeing as the main actors were colonialists, stalinists and nazis. The USA was probably the most moral of the bunch, if it makes you happy.

That said, i'm sure glad my side won, at least we didn't have any creepy racial theories.

wow a post that makes sense in this thread, who woulda thought!

[lightfire]

Please, no need to back off now. You already said "most of the people". Of course i could just asked how many is "most", since before the break up Soviet Union was populated by ~287 millions of people, and nearly half of them missed SU wholeheartedly, especially older generation. But here you are, painting most of them as thieves, drunkards and losers.. Do i had to go into details? Great confidence you had there..
.

so? I have oppinion about such people. Most of the ones, who miss SU times I've seen personally are the ones, I've just described. It might be not all of the rest are different, but from my experience - there's a high chance. And who cares about that anyway? many members have been named worse here, yet few of them have soviet mentality or has ever seen the "soviet paradise". If you miss soviet paradise - fine, it's your problem, I believe many of such people are the ones, I've described and there's nothing to add or back off.


Actually you did. Why are you arguing?

cvause you don't understand the fundamental principle. We do not need your factories, statuses and everything you've been building, Mrs Soviet Union. We can build that without you or do no build at all, it's our choice. You came and decided you need to build this and that (I'm not referring to you personally). For the last time, when we told loudly that we do not want, you put a blockade and sent troops. What is it so hard to understand?


That is irrelevant, those who want freedom never seize to fight for it. Only when SU started to fall apart various independence/"independence" movements arose

wrong, we fought for our freedom since 1944 till mid 50ties and 20 000 have died in this battle. As for 1940 it's another story, and it does not give a legal right to deny freedom also.

[Bolt]

As for 1940 it's another story, and it does not give a legal right to deny freedom also.
Please tell us this story.

[lightfire]

some of them actually did directly fighting red Army divisions, some - slaying jews. Puting them toogether to prove your point? Same could be said about soviet soldiers.

[QUOTE]And after this they are freedom fighters??

if you are referring Latvian and estonian SS, they themselves regard freedom fighters, since they actually believe (well, at least some of them) they were fighting against not for. What they did - that's individual cases. I personally don't think one should glorify them, since they were definitely on the wrong side and manipulated (while some, commiting crimes)



Lithuania from these 3 countries is the one that has at least some moral ground - they did not agree to form Legions, that's why some were shot, and other opressed. However, there were still some volunteer ****s which helped to make this country completely Juden-frei - 96% of whole Jewish population in Lithuania was exterminated. There is no other country that managed to "achieve" such results.

so? In France, Denmark and other Nazi occupied countries you could find very same ****s. Anti-Semite feelings were not smth unusual those times and some used that to the greater extent than other. For those ****s I have no words of pity, they should be prosecuted. And as for achieved results -- there's nothing to be proud of it and none except idiots do.



How do you feel living in a country full of loosers?

Do I need to translate this or there is no need and you will shut up?

first, provide link, second, it's a poll. Third, yes, the country is full of loosers. Surprise, many of them are of the old age. So?



Please tell us this story.

It's not on topic. In short, Baltic countries have been occupied in 1940 and then annexed after "elections". Nobody except SU and it's satellites recognized the legitimacy of this.

[Bolt]

some of them actually did directly fighting red Army divisions, some - slaying jews. Puting them toogether to prove your point? Same could be said about soviet soldiers
You didn't get my point. Yes, some of them were conducting polizei missions, some of them were fighting on the frontline. But they did so in the lines together with Nazis and had no objections against Nazi occupation, in fact, they were actively helping them.
A freedom fighter is a man who fights against any occupant, don't you agree?

personally don't think one should glorify them, since they were definitely on the wrong side and manipulated (while some, commiting crimes)

Good to hear, seriously.

so? In France, Denmark and other Nazi occupied countries you could find very same ****s
Yes, you could. But not France nor Denmark had such high percentage of killed Jews.


first, provide link, second, it's a poll. Third, yes, the country is full of loosers. Surprise, many of them are of the old age. So?
1. http://www.bernardinai.lt/index.php?url=articles/40542
2. Yes, a poll. That's how statistics work - via polls.
3. Those people who feel nostalgic about these times actually could compare then and now. This cannot be said about the brainwashed youth. BTW, I would not support the ressurection of Soviet Union, but it had its pluses - and many; such as a free medicine, education and social support to young specialists. Maybe people miss these things now, and not the opportunity to steal from work or kolhozes?

[peter.pl]

Guys you don't see what is hepening here, Switek and all polish members, you were provocated by typical trolls, they are making that only for fun. I don't belive someone can be so stupid so they are making joks, stop it
http://lh5.ggpht.com/carlos57775/SCobc6EL_hI/AAAAAAAABys/RG0y66Z3ZDY/s288/Don't%20feed%20the%20troll.jpg

[Flamming_Python]

Granted, it isn´t very difficult to look like the white knight when you´re fighting against the Nazis... you don´t get involved in a war because of altruistic motives - but still: The western allies certainly where the most "moral" of the bunch.

I wouldn't say Western allies; Britain and France were butchering more than enough people in their colonies.

USA didn't have much of an empire during WW2 and had long since got rid of slavery, so it was the country with the least complexes and killings at that time.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I wouldn't say Western allies; Britain and France were butchering more than enough people in their colonies.


Oh rly?

Which colonies was Britain butchering people in during WW2 then?

[lightfire]

You didn't get my point. Yes, some of them were conducting polizei missions, some of them were fighting on the frontline. But they did so in the lines together with Nazis and had no objections against Nazi occupation, in fact, they were actively helping them.
A freedom fighter is a man who fights against any occupant, don't you agree?


As I said, they regard it themselves like that, not I. I regard "Freedom fighters" - those people who fought against occupants after 1994. And yes, not all of them as well.



Yes, you could. But not France nor Denmark had such high percentage of killed Jews.

there were some reasons obviously. It was quite easy to round up jews in little towns and citties, and villages, since they lived in tight communities for centuries. What's your point? That Lithuania is/was the most anti-semitic country?


1. http://www.bernardinai.lt/index.php?url=articles/40542
2. Yes, a poll. That's how statistics work - via polls.
3. Those people who feel nostalgic about these times actually could compare then and now. This cannot be said about the brainwashed youth. BTW, I would not support the ressurection of Soviet Union, but it had its pluses - and many; such as a free medicine, education and social support to young specialists. Maybe people miss these things now, and not the opportunity to steal from work or kolhozes?

well, its an endless debate about advantages of communism and capitalism. It's ok with me, if you miss free medicine etc, (and not the looser way - stealing from kolhoz, cheep drink, granted salary etc) BUT value freedom higher than anything else.

One misses things and comodities, but not the regime - it's ok. If one misses the regime - it's no for me, and I regard that person a looser.

[Flamming_Python]

Here you are... seems you really do not know the history of your nation...

http://triton.imageshack.us/Himg140/scaled.php?server=140&filename=bundesarchivbild183n030.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-280-1075-10A%2C_Russland%2C_Borislaw_Kaminski.jpg/450px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-280-1075-10A%2C_Russland%2C_Borislaw_Kaminski.jpg

So what do you want me to find pictures of Polish troops annexing a part of Czechoslovakia together with ze Germans?


In opposition to Soviet times, an Afghanistan is now under international responsibility...

No Switek, you are simply fighting another empire's conflict for them. There is no international anything. Afghanistan posed a threat to America; it didn't pose a threat to Poland. Nothing wrong with that; it's called an alliance, but let's not pretend that it's some international anything. I'm sure if you asked most of the Muslims of the world (1/3 of its population), most of them will wish the USA nothing but defeat, despite what they might think about the Taliban. Ask the Chinese (another 1/4 of the world), and they probably wouldn't give a damn either way.

The fighting methods and tactics used by NATO are probably a lot more humane than the Soviet army 20 years ago. And the methods and tactics used by the Soviet army in Afghanistan were probably a lot more humane than what was used by the American army in Vietnam 10 years before that. Times change. But if you look at the actual reasons that the USSR invaded Afghanistan versus the reasons the USA invaded Afghanistan, they seem to me to be pretty similar and you have yet to give me any arguments that suggest otherwise.

[peter.pl]

So what do you want me to find pictures of Polish troops annexing a part of Czechoslovakia together with ze Germans?
Please, show me a photo of German and Polish soldiers in Czechoslovakia.

[Flamming_Python]

Please, show me a photo of German and Polish soldiers in Czechoslovakia.

Would showing you a photo of Polish troops in Czechoslovakia be enough? Or do there have to be Germans in the photo as well?

[peter.pl]

I know photos of Polish troops in Zaolzie. I want to see Polish and German troops in Zaolzie together.

[Flamming_Python]

Oh rly?

Which colonies was Britain butchering people in during WW2 then?

Bengal Famine of 1943?
3 million deaths, major responsibility for which can be put on Bengal's British administration?

If Stalin is to be blamed for the 'Holodomor' which occurred over Ukraine, Russia and Kazakhstan, it is only fair.

[Flamming_Python]

I know photos of Polish troops in Zaolzie. I want to see Polish and German troops in Zaolzie together.

Dunno if I can help you mate. So if you were unable to find photos of Soviet and German troops meeting up in Poland together, but only separate photos of Germans and Soviets invading Poland, it would be alright?

[Mr.K]

Great, this is now turing " who has the most pics with the nazis" conest.

[peter.pl]

And taht is difrence. You can see photos of German and Russian soldiers together because they were friends, you can't find photos of Polish and German soldiers together cause we weren't friends of Germans, we just used situation. Czechoslovakia was destroyed we took Zaolzie because we were fighting for that with Czecoslovakia. To sum up, we had luck :)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Bengal Famine of 1943?
3 million deaths, major responsibility for which can be put on Bengal's British administration?

If Stalin is to be blamed for the 'Holodomor' which occurred over Ukraine, Russia and Kazakhstan, it is only fair.

Famines happen all the time in India and even into recent times people haven't had enough to eat! The British Raj was no better and no worse than India's rulers before and after British rule.

In fact much of India including Bengal was not actually ruled directly by the British at all. Administration was in the hands of local rulers in this case not very competent ones. The british in India were more 'business partners' and 'security guards' for local rulers than anything else as the Brits in fact were very few in number in relation to the Indian population.

A completely different situation from the deliberate starvation of the Ukraine that was carried out by Stalin's regime.

So you managed to find one highly debatable issue from the British Empire

Shall we start compiling the very long list that's down to Stalin's Russian Empire then?;)

[AlexMartin2]

A completely different situation from the deliberate starvation of the Ukraine that was carried out by Stalin's regime.


A stupid false claim without any even debatable proof.

Is there a festival of morons today? Two topics where people throws propaganda about Russia and Soviet Union?
It seems not much changed from Cold war times when propagandistic "victory" was more important that truth and ethic.

I hope that people from E.Europe will stop putting they head in the ass and will try to think reasonably, or yours sanity will suffer.

[Bolt]

As I said, they regard it themselves like that, not I. I regard "Freedom fighters" - those people who fought against occupants after 1994. And yes, not all of them as well.

OK, I understand your point (but you probably meant "after 1944", not "1994"). I didn't adress this opinion about Latvian and Estonian collaborators directly to you, but more to Latvians and Estonians in this thread.

What's your point? That Lithuania is/was the most anti-semitic country?
My point is that Lithuania, as all other Baltci countries was one of the most anti-semitic, yes. And I've brought this issue as an answer to this post by tommy00

So, nazis learn "holocaust" from "baltic people"...rofl

[a_very_ex_STAB]

A stupid false claim without any even debatable proof.

Is there a festival of morons today? Two topics where people throws propaganda about Russia and Soviet Union?
It seems not much changed from Cold war times when propagandistic "victory" was more important that truth and ethic.

I hope that people from E.Europe will stop putting they head in the ass and will try to think reasonably, or yours sanity will suffer.

Is having your head stuck firmly up your rectum compulsory in the Spetznaz strong wannabee crowd or something?

There is no debate at all about what Stalin's policies were towards the starvation of the Ukraine and I should add Kazakhstan as well while I'm about it :roll: The only debate as you would call it is among brainwashed apologists - a group that would appear to include you.

When I get back from this weekend. I'll start lining up the documentary sources for you if you like.

[kalkun]

Is there a festival of morons today? Two topics where people throws propaganda about Russia and Soviet Union?


What do you think about A. Dukov links posted earlier and praised as a fellow who knows real facts? I don't find that not only propaganda but totally hardcore BS job.
Same with the Estonian government "opening" statutes and "supporting" veterans who wore German uniform.
And someone should read again about Nuremberg regarding Estonian & Latvian W-SS units.

[AlexMartin2]

Is having your head stuck firmly up your rectum compulsory in the Spetznaz strong wannabee crowd or something?

There is no debate at all about what Stalin's policies were towards the starvation of the Ukraine and I should add Kazakhstan as well while I'm about it :roll: The only debate as you would call it is among brainwashed apologists - a group that would appear to include you.

When I get back from this weekend. I'll start lining up the documentary sources for you if you like.

OK, I apologize for insult, because instead of something remote looking like proof I received an insult in response. Very nice.

Maybe now you would like to present a proof? Or you simply cant? Or you will post link from wikipedia and tell me that this it? I'm waiting, you know.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

OK, I apologize for insult, because instead of something remote looking like proof I received an insult in response. Very nice.

Maybe now you would like to present a proof? Or you simply cant? Or you will post link from wikipedia and tell me that this it? I'm waiting, you know.

Like I said - when I get back from this weekend. I'm not at home at the moment ;-)

[AlexMartin2]

What do you think about A. Dukov links posted earlier and praised as a fellow who knows real facts? I don't find that not only propaganda but totally hardcore BS job.


Then it is pointless to discuss it with you any further. He presented real historic facts, some of them proved not only by Russian, but by western sources. If you don't want to look at it, its not my problem. Sanity will suffer, or maybe I can say that it already suffered without chance to heal.

I also want to add, that our conversation change nothing in current politics and international relations of my or yours countries. I spend my time here only because I want to see how deep our mutual lack of understanding.

[Flamming_Python]

Famines happen all the time in India and even into recent times people haven't had enough to eat! The British Raj was no better and no worse than India's rulers before and after British rule.

In fact much of India including Bengal was not actually ruled directly by the British at all. Administration was in the hands of local rulers in this case not very competent ones. The british in India were more 'business partners' and 'security guards' for local rulers than anything else as the Brits in fact were very few in number in relation to the Indian population.

A completely different situation from the deliberate starvation of the Ukraine that was carried out by Stalin's regime.

So you managed to find one highly debatable issue from the British Empire

Shall we start compiling the very long list that's down to Stalin's Russian Empire then?;)

Yes I agree that famines happen all the time in India and the subcontinent, but there is a reason why I didn't mention all those other famines, and instead deliberately singled out Bengal's situation in 1943. And that was because like Stalin collectivising and selling the agricultural produce of the major agricultural areas of the USSR in 32/33 in order to fund the USSR's industrialisation, the Bengal famine was also artificial in that millions of tonnes of grain and rice were diverted to British soldiers and India proper. Now while there was still enough stock to feed the population in Bengal, this action caused the price of food to sky-rocket so that the majority of Bangladeshis (especially those without land) were too poor to buy any food. There were also other controversies such as Canada and America offering aid, that was for a long initial period rejected by Britain because it didn't want to admit its mistakes or had other priorities.

As for the question of local officials, administrations, etc... be that as it may, it still doesn't change the facts. The territory in question was a part of the British empire, the institutions there were ones set up and supported by the empire, and the order for the food diversion seemed to come from the top as it was a military concern; just as the policy of collectivization came from Stalin in Moscow.

Even if the local admins were all Bengali, it is the same as local NKVD units and officials in the USSR at the time of the Holodomor were mostly composed of Russians, Ukrainians or Kazakhs depending on the region in question. London had the capability to do something about it, just as Moscow did. Neither did. Note that this is not the same as laying the blame on the English or the Russians. Both were British and Soviet atrocities appropriately; the political institutions are to blame not the common people.

And yes I managed to find one controversial issue. I'm sure that if I would go over the history of the British and French colonies from 1932-1945 with as fine a comb as was used to go over the history of the USSR from 1932-1945; I would find more :D

[Bachelor]

No, Poles are at war to clean up all **** what remained inter alia after your invasion 1978-89, Brezhnev kid.

I apologise for my "off topic", but Switek is real communist-propagandist and the nationalist. He hates Russian and posting his lovely Nazi propaganda. If he hates communists that it is other question but he really hates Russian. Therefore, I wish invite him to Russia and to buy him one way ticket. I promise wonderful excursions across Russia and great time with real Russian Guys. Welcome muzhik!

My "off topic" answer to my best Polish friend...
Thanks for the Polish soldiers for the help from the Afghani people !

Soviet invasion has changed on Polish... Afghani people read Brezhnev's "Malai Zemlia" in 1978-89 but now they read the Polish erotics. What difference? Not!
What has not changed? Both stXpid...
Bhahahaha!!!

In 1978-89 had killed people and now killing people... What difference? Soviet soldiers and Polish soldiers...
What has not changed? Not! Both killing people...


http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3632/afghanistan.jpg

[kalkun]

Then it is pointless to discuss it with you any further. He presented real historic facts, some of them proved not only by Russian, but by western sources. If you don't want to look at it, its not my problem. Sanity will suffer, or maybe I can say that it already suffered without chance to heal.

Indeed it is pointless, how many years has this sh!t been going on this board anyway...
Personally I think Baltic vs. Russia(or similar) threads should be forbidden anyway. Just like the Balkans or Turkish vs Greece are.

[TakeIt]

I believe many of such people are the ones, I've described and there's nothing to add or back off.You know, beliefs never substitute for knowledge.


We do not need your factories, statuses and everything you've been building, Mrs Soviet Union. We can build that without you or do no build at all, it's our choice.Back to the stone age.. I need to refresh my memory of the agricultural situation back during pre-ww2 independence..


You came and decided you need to build this and that (I'm not referring to you personally). For the last time, when we told loudly that we do not want, you put a blockade and sent troops. What is it so hard to understand?You were part of the country; anyone, threatening its existance must be dealt with. That's the common principle. The measure and severity depends on the goverment. BTW, if i remember correctly you supported Georgia in it's "dispute" with break-away territories, are you?


wrong, we fought for our freedom since 1944 till mid 50ties and 20 000 have died in this battle.Please, i've had enough fairy tales for today. Killing an old head of the kolchoz along with his family, or throwing a handgrenade into the crowd during dance is not fighting, it's terrorism. Also, no "fighting till mid-50s", only hiding. It's like saying that in Estonia fight continued up until 1978, since the last forest brother was found and shot that year.


As for 1940 it's another story, and it does not give a legal right to deny freedom also.Didn't follow, what did you mean?

[peter.pl]

Bachelor remember, if someone hates Russian doesn't mean he is Nazi..
I got to say something about Afganistan.
Russian army was doing crimes on civilians and that is confirmed. Polish army is not killing civilians. That is main difrence.

[ilmakas]

Then it is pointless to discuss it with you any further. He presented real historic facts, some of them proved not only by Russian, but by western sources. If you don't want to look at it, its not my problem. Sanity will suffer, or maybe I can say that it already suffered without chance to heal.

I also want to add, that our conversation change nothing in current politics and international relations of my or yours countries. I spend my time here only because I want to see how deep our mutual lack of understanding.

if you think that this Dyukov joker is not pushing any agenda and is a good historian then there really is no point to discuss baltics in ww2 with you.

[Bolt]

Actually Diukov has a LiveJournal out there and he actively uses it.
Ilmakas, could you point his main mistakes so that I could pass this info to him and get his comment?

[AlexMartin2]

if you think that this Dyukov joker is not pushing any agenda and is a good historian then there really is no point to discuss baltics in ww2 with you.

Indeed. You are not the first person who throwing accusations without any proof.

[Flamming_Python]

Indeed it is pointless, how many years has this sh!t been going on this board anyway...
Personally I think Baltic vs. Russia(or similar) threads should be forbidden anyway. Just like the Balkans or Turkish vs Greece are.

Sounds reasonable to me...