Women told: 'You have dishonoured your family, please kill yourself'

[kosse]

Women told: 'You have dishonoured your family, please kill yourself'

As Turkey cracks down on 'honour killings', women are now told to commit suicide

By Ramita Navai in Batman, eastern Turkey
Friday, 27 March 2009

When Elif's father told her she had to kill herself in order to spare him from a prison sentence for her murder, she considered it long and hard. "I loved my father so much, I was ready to commit suicide for him even though I hadn't done anything wrong," the 18-year-old said. "But I just couldn't go through with it. I love life too much."

All Elif had done was simply decline the offer of an arranged marriage with an older man, telling her parents she wanted to continue her education. That act of disobedience was seen as bringing dishonour on her whole family – a crime punishable by death. "I managed to escape. When I was at school, a few girls I knew were killed by their families in the name of honour – one of them for simply receiving a text message from a boy," Elif said.

So-called "honour killings" in Turkey have reached record levels. According to government figures, there are more than 200 a year – half of all the murders committed in the country. Now, in a sinister twist, comes the emergence of "honour suicides". The growing phenomenon has been linked to reforms to Turkey's penal code in 2005. That introduced mandatory life sentences for honour killers, whereas in the past, killers could receive a reduced sentence claiming provocation. Soon after the law was passed, the numbers of female suicides started to rocket.


Elif has spent the past eight months on the run, living in hiding and in fear. Her uncles and other relatives are looking to hunt her down, for dishonour is seen as a stain that can only be cleansed by death. One of the women's shelters where Elif has stayed has been raided by armed family members.

Elif is from Batman, a grey, bleak town in the south-east of Turkey nicknamed "Suicide City". Three quarters of all suicides here are committed by women – nearly everywhere else in the world, men are three times more likely to kill themselves. "I think most of these suicide cases are forced. There are just too many of them, it's too suspicious. But they're almost impossible to investigate," said Mustafa Peker, Batman's chief prosecutor.

Wearing tight clothes or talking to a man who is not a relative is sometimes all it takes to blacken the family name. Mr Peker said women who are told to kill themselves are usually given one of three options – a noose, a gun or rat poison. They are then locked in a room until the job is done.

A woman's fate is usually decided during a "family council", when the extended family meets to discuss breaches of honour. In these meetings, it is agreed how the victim must be killed. If it is not to be a forced suicide, a killer is chosen. The youngest member of the family is often ordered to kill, in the belief they will be treated more leniently if caught.

Mehmet was 17 when he was handed a gun and told he would have to kill his stepmother and her lover. "I didn't want to do it. I was so young and so scared," he said. Mehmet ran away, but his family tracked him down and warned him his own life would be in danger if he refused to kill.

He shot dead his stepmother's lover, but his stepmother survived the attack. He was given a two-and-a-half- year prison sentence.

"There were many other 'honour killers' in prison and we were treated with respect, even by the prison guards," Mehmet said.

Most honour killings happen in the Kurdish region, a barren land ravaged by years of war and oppression. Rural communities here are ruled under a strict feudal, patriarchal system. But as Kurds have fled the fighting between separatist rebels and Turkey's government, the crime is spreading across the country into its cities and towns. According to a recent government report, there is now one honour killing a week in Istanbul.

"Families who move here are suddenly faced with modern, secular Turkey," said Vildan Yirmibesoglu, the head of Istanbul's department of human rights. "This clash of cultures is making the situation worse as the pressure on women to behave conservatively is become more acute. And of course there are more temptations."

Ms Yirmibesoglu believes that the entrenched belief in the notion of honour – at all levels of society – is impeding any progress. "Honour killings aren't always properly investigated because some police and prosecutors share the same views as the honour killers," she said. "For things to change, police, prosecutors and even judges need to be educated on gender equality."


Killing for Honour will be shown on Channel 4 tonight at 7.35pm

Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/women-told-you-have-dishonoured-your-family-please-kill-yourself-1655373.html


More:




Media help escalate honor killings, study reveals

A study titled "Honor Killings in the Media and Their Impact on Students and Parents" conducted by the Ministry of Education has revealed that parents believe the media play a role in increasing the number of honor killings.

The study was conducted in the provinces where the most honor killings in the country were taking place and covered the responses of 440 high school students and their parents. According to the report released by the ministry, 13 percent of the parents and 9.9 percent of students had witnessed an honor killing. The provinces of Batman, Diyarbakır, Şanlıurfa and Mardin lead in the number of killings, the report indicated.

Based on the responses of students and their families, the media play a negative role in regard to honor killings. Whereas only 7.3 percent of the parents and 8.7 percent of the students said the media have a positive effect in preventing honor killings, 22.7 percent and 29 percent of them, respectively, think that the media play a role in increasing the number of honor killings. The respondents did not find the programs aired or the stories printed by media to be impartial or close to reality.

On the other hand, the study also showed that 26.2 percent of the parents and 25.9 percent of the students said they support such killings, although 64 percent of all respondents said those who committed such a crime should be punished.

The Ministry's Education Research and Development Unit (EARGED) also released some suggestions to the media. Two of the suggestions drawing attention are to broadcast or publish such news with the utmost prudence so as not to negatively affect children, and to stress the causes -- not the outcomes -- of such killings. EARGED also underlined the importance of the education of reporters who are covering such stories.

24 March 2009, Tuesday
İBRAHIM ASALIOĞLU
ANKARA

Source: http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=170502

[Kampfbaer]

Terrible situation for the women in Turkey and other similar counties.

From time to time those "honour killings" happen among the turkish immigrants in Germany too.

But good to hear that the turkish government does sth. about it.

[Ulytau]

Batman again why it wont be surprise for me? about Kurdish problems maybe DTP need to care about ignorancy,tribes,education etc. before supportin terror&ocalan..

Its not about only education as i remember European Parliament Member Feleknas Uca dare threating Turkiye and people when a Yazidi girl loved&escaped with a Muslim guy. ''Both of em 18+'' ''Feleknes Uca yazidi herself''

[Jaeger07]

Batman again why it wont be surprise for me? about Kurdish problems maybe DTP need to care about ignorancy,tribes,education etc. before supportin terror&ocalan..

Its not about only education as i remember European Parliament Member Feleknas Uca dare threating Turkiye and people when a Yazidi girl loved&escaped with a Muslim guy. ''Both of em 18+'' ''Feleknes Uca yazidi herself''

What? I didnt understand anything of that... Could you try to rephrase? Or get someone to help you with the english...

[Ulytau]

What? I didnt understand anything of that... Could you try to rephrase? Or get someone to help you with the english...


First Batman is a city in Turkiye and kind of things wont be surprise for me..''Especially as i check''

Today DTP ''politican party in Turkiye and doing populist things'' when supportin terror with saying they are speaking for Kurds in Turkiye..They never DO kind of things about women problem in Batman,same for the feudal&tribe system there too.

About Feleknas Uca info about her ;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feleknas_Uca

[PeterG]

Savages. This alone should make it utterly impossible for them to join the EU. Wanna live in the middle ages..? Kbye. People from places that condone this sort of behavior, should of course not be allowed to live in the civilized western world either.

A while ago, a kurdish woman was gunned down by her ex-husband in a town not far from me. Turned out she had been on the run from him for a long time. She had an alarm too, like other women on the run from violent men - which means she can press it, if attacked, so the cops know where to pick up her body. I was furious to read that her scumbag kurdish husband had been looking for her for a long time with externsive help from others in the kurdish community in Norway. The woman herself - living under a false name - knew she would eventually be hunted down and murdered. She told friends it was only a matter of time.

This sort of scum is allowed to live here. I don't respect their 'culture' one bit. Animals - but no, that's an insult to animals. :bash:

[gazell]

It's not news. The suicide option was always in the culture. Sending someone the honey string or the string is a saying in Hungarian language since Ottoman rule, it's a 'subtle' message to commit suicide. It also has been around in honour killings for long. Very difficult to investigate, identify and prove.

As Peter is saying, the immigration policy is creating a lot of extra problems here, people living in a completely different mindset and an absolutely different world view, you cannot have a dialogue with. That's why we fail at integration of some people, I do so think, anyhow, we expect them to understand democracy, whereas they think different. That's why they think the court wronged them and all sorts like that.

Some gypsy communities live a somewhat - for lack of better comparison - hunting-gathering lifestyle till this day. What we can do about that, I do not exactly know, but giving out democratic rights, seems to have made the situation worse.

We have a hardly mentionable muslim minority in Hungary, but just recently had a horrible honour killing case, where the father - divorced for violence - on the allowed by democratic court seeing his children attempted to murder both his girls, one survived.

[Bulletproof]

I was furious to read that her scumbag kurdish husband had been looking for her for a long time with externsive help from others in the kurdish community in Norway. The woman herself - living under a false name - knew she would eventually be hunted down and murdered. She told friends it was only a matter of time.

That's sickening and in Norway with that!

[dredger14]

Savages. This alone should make it utterly impossible for them to join the EU. Wanna live in the middle ages..? Kbye. People from places that condone this sort of behavior, should of course not be allowed to live in the civilized western world either.

A while ago, a kurdish woman was gunned down by her ex-husband in a town not far from me. Turned out she had been on the run from him for a long time. She had an alarm too, like other women on the run from violent men - which means she can press it, if attacked, so the cops know where to pick up her body. I was furious to read that her scumbag kurdish husband had been looking for her for a long time with externsive help from others in the kurdish community in Norway. The woman herself - living under a false name - knew she would eventually be hunted down and murdered. She told friends it was only a matter of time.

This sort of scum is allowed to live here. I don't respect their 'culture' one bit. Animals - but no, that's an insult to animals. :bash:

Vote for the opposition if that makes any difference, or be prepared for more of this third world nastiness.

[gtnskymtyyp]

Terrible situation for the women in Turkey and other similar counties.

From time to time those "honour killings" happen among the turkish immigrants in Germany too.

But good to hear that the turkish government does sth. about it.


Batman is a city located in the country you call "Kurdistan". so why are you referring to the women killed as "the women of Turkey"?

Those immigrants you mentioned are Kurds from Turkey, but they will suddenly turn into "Turks" when they kill their daughters.

Isn`t it racist to call Kurds Turks anyway? Are you trying to say they are "mountain Turks"? or should we call them Turks only when they kill their daughters?

[little icebear]

Batman is a city located in the country you call "Kurdistan". so why are you referring to the women killed as "the women of Turkey"?

Those immigrants you mentioned are Kurds from Turkey, but they will suddenly turn into "Turks" when they kill their daughters.

Isn`t it racist to call Kurds Turks anyway? Are you trying to say they are "mountain Turks"? or should we call them Turks only when they kill their daughters?

Another easily insulted, thin skinned Turk... who feels insulted because he thinks it´s bad for his countries image... oh, dear.

It is not a question of whether they are Turkish oder Kurds (and we Germans generally don´t care anyway about making a distinction between those 2 groups of immigrants anyway), it is a question of whether they´re coming from a rural area of Turkey or from the larger cities.
Since the Kurds live mostly in rural areas of Turkey, it´s not very surprising that "honor killings" are more likely to happen amongst them in Turkey.
But German Turks came almost exclusively from poor, rural areas in order to work in Germany in unskilled professions.
That´s why amongst them, there are enough folks who are just as backwards and honorkillings, forced marriage and violence against women are indeed a problem amongst Turks as well as amongst Kurds.

That´s a fact, get over it.

And my insight is pretty accurate, since I´ve known girls of Turkish and Kurdish origin personally, who do have problems with their families because of their "German livestyle"
When I was in school, I´ve once witnessed how a boy of Turkish heritage called his female cousin (?) that she behaved like a "German slut", because she sozialized (meaning: talking, laughing, being friends) with male German classmates. Things like this do happen and it´s not funny.

And as a disclaimer I´d like to add, that this is of course a minority - I do have friends of Turkish origin who are educated people and contribute to our society. Just like most citizens of Turkish or Kurdish origin do.
Still - even a backward minority is a problem that has to be dealt with.

[Izmirlian]

another reason why we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking religion is harmless.

[4X4Driver]

Savages. This alone should make it utterly impossible for them to join the EU.

Totally agreed with you on that. PLEASE keep Turkey out of EU!!!


Batman is a city located in the country you call "Kurdistan". so why are you referring to the women killed as "the women of Turkey"?

Those immigrants you mentioned are Kurds from Turkey, but they will suddenly turn into "Turks" when they kill their daughters.

Isn`t it racist to call Kurds Turks anyway? Are you trying to say they are "mountain Turks"? or should we call them Turks only when they kill their daughters?

Very well said.



...and here is another problem:



Polygamy is illegal in Turkey, but in practice it is allowed to continue. In remote areas like this, Turkey risks antagonising Kurdish separatists by intervening in tradition and customs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/this_world/4165896.stm

[BAF]

oooooohhhhhh boy, here we go again :roll:

[Jaeger07]

another reason why we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking religion is harmless.

Amen to that! :)

PeterG im with you!

[Hollis]

Amen to that! :)

PeterG im with you!


You might want to look at the title under his name. The think to your self, "Now was that a smart thing to post?"

[Jaeger07]

You might want to look at the title under his name. The think to your self, "Now was that a smart thing to post?"

Well he did not get suspended for the comment wich i agreed on. But, no i didnt notice. But if you dont like me quoting him I'll use my own words: Religion is stupid, dangerous and bad for you.

[Hollis]

Well he did not get suspended for the comment wich i agreed on. But, no i didnt notice. But if you dont like me quoting him I'll use my own words: Religion is stupid, dangerous and bad for you.


And what does this have to do with this thread. Maybe you need to join him too.

You and him are the only two idiots you decided to lambaste religion, when it has not been mention.

Take your hard on for religion somewhere else.

[Fuschimuschi]

Everytime something bad happens in Turkey it's the Kurds, it's so easy, I don't know why you people just don't get it.

[Jaeger07]

And what does this have to do with this thread. Maybe you need to join him too.

You and him are the only two idiots you decided to lambaste religion, when it has not been mention.

Take your hard on for religion somewhere else.

Ofcourse it has everything to do with this thread. Honour killings is an intricate part of fundamentalist islam. Do you disagree on this?

[Hollis]

Ofcourse it has everything to do with this thread. Honour killings is an intricate part of fundamentalist islam. Do you disagree on this?


No I do not agree with it.

1st, You said religion.......... that means all religions.

2nd, Use search on this forum, this has been discussed many time. Traditions maybe become interwoven with a person belief system, but it is worth while to find the actual source.

Our Muslim members on this forum would be better to answer this, and they have.... that is where the search engine will help you.

[Ulytau]

Ofcourse it has everything to do with this thread. Honour killings is an intricate part of fundamentalist islam. Do you disagree on this?



In this case, Dua Khalil, a 17-year-old Kurdish girl whose religion is Yazidi, was dragged into a crowd in a headlock with police looking on and kicked, beaten and stoned to death last month

Authorities believe she was killed for being seen with a Sunni Muslim man. She had not married him or converted, but her attackers believed she had, a top official in Nineveh province said. The Yazidis, who observe an ancient Middle Eastern religion, look down on mixing with people of another faith.


http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/05/18/iraq.honorkilling/index.html

[Jaeger07]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up Ulytau, Islam was not the underlying religion in this matter, Yazidi was.

Still, I'ts hardly controversial to state that a religion promoting honour killings is bad for you. Islam has been the underlying religious factor for the honour killings we have seen here in scandinavia, like the one PeterG wrote about.

Religion was IMO a factor in the incident in the OP, or do you disagree?

[Hollis]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up Ulytau, Islam was not the underlying religion in this matter, Yazidi was.

Still, I'ts hardly controversial to state that a religion promoting honour killings is bad for you. Islam has been the underlying religious factor for the honour killings we have seen here in scandinavia, like the one PeterG wrote about.

Religion was IMO a factor in the incident in the OP, or do you disagree?


Again a person can interweave tradition and culture into their religious beliefs. This was also done in Europe in the middle ages with Christianity. Various Religion has been used a tool to justify all sorts of horrors in the past.

If your going to cite Islam as cause, then demonstrate a Qur'anic reference.

[Ulytau]

Mate some people are always using religion as an excuse.Just an example today we seein on forum too,how taliban,al qaida etc. speakin about etc.

Not much before Afghanistan War,taliban was using Uzbeks,Turkmens,Tajiks etc. for cleanin mines in Afghanistan.'Not with electronic things first they were walking on the mine area'' they wont become Muslim after this war right?

If you ask me i read worst about how her relatives rape to victim before killing but who speaking bout honour same time dare to take 12 years old girl ''from memory of a General'' from her home until Commando General sendin message to him;


If you wont going to give girl to her family all Commando brigade coming to your house.About image words etc.. Honestly i dont care image issue if someone is ignorant and have prejudices Einstein explain everything;


It is harder to crack a prejudice than an atom

about Islam watch or kind of sites etc they can't know Islam better than Mevlana too right? ;

http://www.mevlana.net/

[Jaeger07]

Again a person can interweave tradition and culture into their religious beliefs. This was also done in Europe in the middle ages with Christianity. Various Religion has been used a tool to justify all sorts of horrors in the past.

If your going to cite Islam as cause, then demonstrate a Qur'anic reference.

Ofcourse, religion and tradition goes hand in hand. In many cases, especially if you look to the middle ages, religion and culture are synonymous.

Now your asking me to quote the quran, as always when qouting religious scripture you will not find an exact command or answer - the texts must in some way or another be interpreted by the reader.

There are however many parts of the quran and hadiths that can be said to (pretty clearly IMO) promote honour killings:


Dictums of Quran and Hadiths which may dictate/incite honor killing:

Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

Quran-24:2 “The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication—flog each of them with hundred stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the last day.”

Quran-17:32 “ Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).

Quran-33:33 “stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display.”

Now some sahih hadiths:

Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira: A man from Bani Aslam came to Allah's Apostle while he was in the mosque and called (the Prophet ) saying, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal ****** intercourse." On that the Prophet turned his face from him to the other side, whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal ****** intercourse." The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and repeated his statement. The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side again. The man moved again (and repeated his statement) for the fourth time. So when the man had given witness four times against himself, the Prophet called him and said, "Are you insane?" He replied, "No." The Prophet then said (to his companions), "Go and stone him to death." The man was a married one. Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari said: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the Musalla ('Id praying place) in Medina. When the stones hit him with their sharp edges, he fled, but we caught him at Al-Harra and stoned him till he died.
(See also Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 195.)


Sahi Bukhari: 8:6814:
Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah al-Ansari: “A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allah’s Messenger [Muhammad] and informed him that he had committed illegal ****** intercourse; and he bore witness four times against himself. Allah’s Messenger ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married person.”

Sahi Muslim No. 4206:
“A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God’s forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her.”

Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 2. pg 1009; and Sahih Muslim Vol 2. pg 65:
Hadhrat Abdullah ibne Abbaas (Radiallahu Anhu) narrates the lecture that Hadhrat Umar (Radiallaahu Anhu) delivered whilst sitting on the pulpit of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). Hadhrat Umar (Radiallahu Anhu) said, "Verily, Allah sent Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) with the truth, and revealed the Quran upon him. The verse regarding the stoning of the adulterer/ess was from amongst the verse revealed (in the Quraan). We read it, secured it and understood it. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) stoned and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time a person might say, ‘We do not find mention of stoning in the Book of Allah and thereby go astray by leaving out an obligation revealed by Allah. Verily, the stoning of a adulterer/ress is found in the Quraan and is the truth, if the witnesses are met or there is a pregnancy or confession."

Al-Bukhari:
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Whoever guarantees me that he will guard his chastity, I will guarantee him Paradise”.

Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, An-Nisa’i and others:
Abu Hurayrah reports that the Messenger of Allah said, “No one commits adultery while still remaining a believer, for faith is more precious unto Allah than such an evil act!” In another version, it is stated, “When a person commits adultery he casts away from his neck the bond that ties him to Islam; if, however, he repents, Allah will accept his repentance”.

Al-Bayhaqi:
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “O mankind! Beware of fornication/adultery for it entails six dire consequences: three of them relating to this world and three to the next world. As for the three that are related to this world, they are the following: it removes the glow of one’s face, brings poverty, and reduces the life-span. As for its dire consequences in the next world they are: it brings down the wrath of Allah upon the person, subjects him to terrible reckoning, and finally casts him in hell-fire.”

Source: http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/honor_killing.htm

[Hollis]

Jaeger, Ulytau is right, See Einstein's quote.

Now let's move on, this is getting way off topic.

[Jaeger07]

Jaeger, Ulytau is right, See Einstein's quote.

Now let's move on, this is getting way off topic.

Now your just running from the real discussion. You asked me for the quotes, I gave them to you.


The subject is honour killings, and I feel the underlying motivation for these actions is a central part of the subject. However if we cant comment on the motivation for the killings, could you please give me a subject concerning honour killings that we can discuss in this thread?

Or should i just go to bed...

[Hollis]

[quote=Jaeger07;4019885

Or should i just go to bed...[/quote]


Yep, Your pissin on the wrong spark plug.

[deli_dumrul]

Another easily insulted, thin skinned Turk... who feels insulted because he thinks it´s bad for his countries image... oh, dear.


It is a discussion forum right?



It is not a question of whether they are Turkish oder Kurds (and we Germans generally don´t care anyway about making a distinction between those 2 groups of immigrants anyway),

I think Germans are capable of making that distinction.

Remember, one is oppressed and in your country as a refugee from a country called Kurdistan. The other is, well, as poor, illiterate, miserable as the other one, but since he is not a Kurd, he is not considered oppressed and in need of a country that would respect his rights.



When I was in school, I´ve once witnessed how a boy of Turkish heritage called his female cousin (?) that she behaved like a "German slut", because she sozialized (meaning: talking, laughing, being friends) with male German classmates. Things like this do happen and it´s not funny.


Not at all. But I bet she is still alive... If she is, there is your distinction.



And as a disclaimer I´d like to add, that this is of course a minority - I do have friends of Turkish origin who are educated people and contribute to our society. Just like most citizens of Turkish or Kurdish origin do.


It does not matter whether they are integrated. The bad apples ruin the whole image.



Still - even a backward minority is a problem that has to be dealt with.Funny... All those decades and you could not solve it too (as in PeterG's post) and the divide is only getting bigger... I would like to hear your solution if you don't mind.

[little icebear]

To brake it down for you, deli: I responded to gtnskymtyyp posting, because he declared that this was not a Turkish but a Kurdish problem.
I know for a fact, that this is not true. The same problem exists amongst Turks. Turks who originally come from rural areas, where people are often less educated and far more keen about living up to some old traditions concerning the role of women in society.


I bet she is still alive... If she is, there is your distinction.

And you do the same thing. There are also Turks who kill their daughters, sisters and wifes and they do it for exactly the same reasons.
Despite all the fighting between Kurds and Turks - apparently some of you are not as different from each other as you would like.



I would like to hear your solution if you don't mind.

We started way too late, to make effords to integrate our immigrants into our society. We Germans have build to many walls between ourselves and our immigrant community and regarded them as guests instead of fellow citizens for far too long.
Now it´s mostly up to them, to integrate themselves properly. Those who are smart and resourcefull make it, the other ones will stay at the bottom of the society. We need to make sure, that their kids will be properly assisted from an early age on. Statistics say, they are catching up education-wise in absolute numbers, but there is a gap in terms of attending highschools and going to university that has so far remained pretty large. That´s not good.

But one thing is for sure: there must be zero tollerance torwards backwards a-holes, who think of their women as their property.
And we must prepared to help girls and women who are in danger because of their own families.

[deli_dumrul]

And you do the same thing. There are also Turks who kill their daughters, sisters and wifes and they do it for exactly the same reasons.


Having a problem is one thing, being branded in the same category as Kurds (that believe in honor killings) is another thing.

There is no such concept as a honor killing in Turkish culture. But it exists in Kurdish culture. A bunch of lowlife Turks emulating the same thing does not put us in the same category. I am specifically referring to honor killings which is the subject of this article.

Your rural area argument is also invalid. For instance, Eastern Black sea region is as poor as the South Eastern region but you do not hear these types stories.

So please make the distinction here. Not when it suits your interests in oppressed Kurds articles.



Despite all the fighting between Kurds and Turks - apparently some of you are not as different from each other as you would like.


Unfortunately.



We started way too late, to make effords to integrate our immigrants into our society. We Germans have build to many walls between ourselves and our immigrant community and regarded them as guests instead of fellow citizens for far too long.
Now it´s mostly up to them, to integrate themselves properly. Those who are smart and resourcefull make it, the other ones will stay at the bottom of the society. We need to make sure, that their kids will be properly assisted from an early age on. Statistics say, they are catching up education-wise in absolute numbers, but there is a gap in terms of attending highschools and going to university that has so far remained pretty large. That´s not good.

But one thing is for sure: there must be zero tollerance torwards backwards a-holes, who think of their women as their property.
And we must prepared to help girls and women who are in danger because of their own families.

Good luck. You won't be able to accomplish anything with that welfare system. You will continue to create those isolated populations who don't need to claw through trying to make a living and exposing themselves to the culture.

[little icebear]

Having a problem is one thing, being branded in the same category as Kurds (that believe in honor killings) is another thing.

There is no such concept as a honor killing in Turkish culture. But it exists in Kurdish culture. A bunch of lowlife Turks emulating the same thing does not put us in the same category. I am specifically referring to honor killings which is the subject of this article.

Your rural area argument is also invalid. For instance, Eastern Black sea region is as poor as the South Eastern region but you do not hear these types stories.

Well, the "rural area argument" is the reason generally presented by Turkic-Germans, when you talk with them about the fact, that a certain percentage of our Turkish immigrant community behaves like a bunch of retards with a set of values straight from the middle ages.
And it´s not only honor killing... also forced marriages and general acts of oppression and violence towards females.
In your last posting you responded to my little story about the girl, the difference between her being of Turkish and not of Kurdish origin was, that she´s still alive - hell, even the remote idea that the girl is a "slut because she behaves like a german" is bad enough and the next logical step is punishment.
It´s the same notion...

Another fine little story: My mother told our neighbour´s son to be carefull while playing soccer, after he repeatedly kicked his ball into the flowers in our garden.
The 10yo boy´s anwser was, that he was a Turkish man (!) and he does not have to listen to what a German woman tells him!

Again: This amount of disrespect towards women is the root of this problem. And yes: His familiy is from a rural area of Turkey as well.
And this little boy´s already got a fiance. Sweet, isn´t it?

I could go on with stories about Turkish (not Kurdish) reality in Germany. That´s why I´ve trouble with believing, that these are exclusive Kurdish issues.
I know on the other hand, that Turks generally take a lot of pride in their heritage and that´s why I inclined to believe that some posters might be interested in rejecting negative parts of the realities amongst certain parts of the Turkish population, by claiming, that this is only true amongst Kurds...




So please make the distinction here. Not when it suits your interests in oppressed Kurds articles.

I do not take any interest in oppressed Kurds somewhere in Turkey or in Iraq... I´m more worried about people in my own country. No matter whether they are originally Turkish or Kurdish.
I only want this sh*t to stop and I want that they´ve got the same chances to take their lifes into their own hands as any other woman in my country.



Good luck. You won't be able to accomplish anything with that welfare system. You will continue to create those isolated populations who don't need to claw through trying to make a living and exposing themselves to the culture.

Well... what else are we supposed to do. They are our citizens so their problems are our problems.

[deli_dumrul]

Another fine little story: My mother told our neighbour´s son to be carefull while playing soccer, after he repeatedly kicked his ball into the flowers in our garden.
The 10yo boy´s anwser was, that he was a Turkish man (!) and he does not have to listen to what a German woman tells him!

Again: This amount of disrespect towards women is the root of this problem. And yes: His familiy is from a rural area of Turkey as well.


What did you do?

This kid would have gotten his a$$ kicked in Turkey. Male or female, rural or not, there would be no exception.



I could go on with stories about Turkish (not Kurdish) reality in Germany. That´s why I´ve trouble with believing, that these are exclusive Kurdish issues.


Yeah, we have issues, most important of which is domestic violence. I have also seen other members complain about our anger management issues. But these have got nothing to do with this article.



I am specifically referring to honor killings which is the subject of this article.

[little icebear]

What did you do?

This kid would have gotten his a$$ kicked in Turkey. Male or female, rural or not, there would be no exception.


I didn´t do anything since I´m not longer living at my parent´s place for quiet a while now. ;)

My mother was stunned... I told her she should have slapped him in the face good and propper.
However, you can bet, that he didn´t came up on his own, with the idea that a woman is not supposed to tell a "man" what to do... He´s the little pasha and in company of women, he´s the boss.



Yeah, we have issues, most important of which is domestic violence. I have also seen other members complain about our anger management issues. But these have got nothing to do with this article.

I do believe that these issues are very closely related, deli.

Of course it´s a difference between beating a woman up or killing her - but the reasoning behind it is the same. It´s just a step further.

[deli_dumrul]

I do believe that these issues are very closely related, deli.

Of course it´s a difference between beating a woman up or killing her - but the reasoning behind it is the same. It´s just a step further.

You can put us in any other group than the honor killing ones.

Good luck to your mother.

[little icebear]

You can put us in any other group than the honor killing ones.


Don´t worry. Honor killings and spoiled little pashas are hardly the first thing that comes to my mind, when I think of Turks.

This is my no 1 association: http://www.doeneria.de/doener011.jpg ;)

When you´re on the run, nothing beats a tasty döner kebab!

[Karaahmetoglu]

I agree that Turkey does not have equal rights.

A Kurd has more rights then I do.

I can thank the EU for that one.

[gazell]

Those immigrants you mentioned are Kurds from Turkey, but they will suddenly turn into "Turks" when they kill their daughters.

Isn`t it racist to call Kurds Turks anyway?

They don't know or care. Anyhow, it's human rights policy, they are XYZ citizen, when wrong-doing, they are ABC minority when offended. And I don't mean the Kurds, anybody, really.



Still, I'ts hardly controversial to state that a religion promoting honour killings is bad for you. Islam has been the underlying religious factor for the honour killings we have seen here in scandinavia, like the one PeterG wrote about.


Honour killings were quite about in Europe till about middle of last century, like in Italy. What it is Scandinavia right now, is of course another matter, but no, it's not religion specific at all, though nowadays most wide-spread in Islamic countries.



Good luck. You won't be able to accomplish anything with that welfare system. You will continue to create those isolated populations who don't need to claw through trying to make a living and exposing themselves to the culture.


There's the point.

And yes, minorities end up having more rights than anybody else in some countries trying to overly obey these out of touch with reality policies.

Unfortunately, Little bear, some countries collect a lot of criminals under the idea of refugees, out of patronising ignorance.

New Zealand recently wrote on a roma application: not persecuted but prosecuted and therefore refused, not that much insight everywhere.

[AZZenny]

The issue is patriarchy.

And where this belief still is most strongly encouraged and celebrated (as opposed to just tolerated or opposed) is in the fundamentalist forms of nearly all the major religions -- certainly the big 3 monotheistic religions. Urban or rural, East or West, doesn't matter.

And of the big 3, Islam, never having moved away from its tribal roots as much as Judaism and Christianity were forced to by dispersion, is patriarchal at a disturbing degree -- even in 'moderate' Islam. You have to go for progressive modern Islam (which is a minority) to really see the dropping away of restrictive attitudes towards what women can wear or do. In Judaism and Christianity, you find those restrictions only in a very small percentage, among the most conservative sects.

Islam is currently far and away the most dangerous to the rights and well-being of women, and to a large degree, we can thank the Saudis (http://www.ask.com/bar?q=The+woman%27s+room+Arabia&page=2&qsrc=0&ab=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWomen%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia) for pushing what some have called 'gender apartheid' into every nook and cranny where a Mosque can be found or built (and funded.) Saudis say they don't approve or commit honor killings -- but execution for shaming the family or breaking one of the innumerable gender-specific laws is not rare or punished.

Or there's the alternative (and yes, it is in the Quran) -- to wall a woman up in a small room for solitary confinement as long as the male head of the family wishes -- and that can be for years, decades, life. They have construction companies, I have read, that specialize in building such rooms with a really fast turnaround. So maybe honor suicide isn't such a bad option under the circumstances.

What's stunning is that according to a CT guy I heard, Wahabbi Imams are making big inroads with young UK and Euro Muslim women of tribal Pakistani or North African heritage, because Saudi-style Islamic rules regarding women actually give more protection and flexibility to women than Deobandi or taliban forms of Islam. How's that for godawful appalling?

[TDuck]

A comic that sums up everything:
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/555/freedomw.jpg