Were armored trains worth it?

[chuckster]

I find armored trains interesting. I know they were used extensively in Russia during both world wars. I think they would have been especially effective for hauling large artillery guns in areas where the roads were particularly bad and for protecting troops and amunition from strafing attacks but it seems to me the rail they ran over would be a real weakness. All an enemy needs to to is take out a section of rail in front and another in back of the train and it is completely immobilized.

[GazB]

Don't think of the armoured train as a substitute for a tank or artillery. They were mostly command posts... ie armoured mobile communications and HQ.

In that role they were excellent.

[khalifah]

do you meen armored trains as in trains there to fight? or are you talking about trains specifically for trasport of heavy equipment?

frankly, if you meen the former, the armored trains sounds pritty badass. 100 tons of metal speeding around tracks with guns blazing. Supported by an AA system and some armor, that would have been some force to reckon with back then.

then of course there are the armored trains, if you meen the latter, that carry large amounts of war material to the front. At the momentim falling asleep, so i cant think of any battle that was affected by the arival of reinforcments by train. But I do know that trains today are still used to trasport tanks, art. and the like.

then again, whichever armored train your talking about, they still would have been rendered useless if segments of the rail were destroyed.

[Ed Robinson]

Armoured trains do have their place in combat. Not as an offensive weapon due to being tied to rails, but they were quite useful for mobile defence.
In WW1 they were used to bring large guns up to within striking distance of the front, armoured to protect the gunners from counter battery fire.
I have seen photographs of “armoured gun platform, (large mortar mounted on a railway carriage with log protection) used in the American Civil war.

In WW2 the Brits used them an anti invasion device, once again they had large calibre guns mounted on armoured trains. Also as mobile pill boxes to be rushed to threatened points.

Used in the Boer war,WW1 and WW2 to guard railway lines from saboteurs.

Unfortunately I am technologically backwards when it comes to posting pictures. So bad luck.

[tercio67]

South Africa
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9498/armouredtrainsouthafric.th.jpg (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=armouredtrainsouthafric.jpg)

Austro-Hungary
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8855/austrohungary1.th.jpg (http://img9.imageshack.us/my.php?image=austrohungary1.jpg)

Poland
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7269/800pxpancierovyvlakzvol.th.jpg (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=800pxpancierovyvlakzvol.jpg)

Armoured train with recce tankette
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/7453/drezynapancernatyputks.th.jpg (http://img9.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drezynapancernatyputks.jpg)

[strumbird]

I find armored trains interesting. I know they were used extensively in Russia during both world wars. I think they would have been especially effective for hauling large artillery guns in areas where the roads were particularly bad and for protecting troops and amunition from strafing attacks but it seems to me the rail they ran over would be a real weakness. All an enemy needs to to is take out a section of rail in front and another in back of the train and it is completely immobilized.

During WWII, the Germans used them to protect and patrol the rail. They are useful in the eastern front were the supply lines are very long. The armored trains are to protect rail lines from the partisan and also repair them. Some armored trains carry "pursuit" armored vehicles. Sometimes armored trains accompany supply trains.

They are also used for artillery in support of ground troops and to bear concentrated anti-aircraft in important areas.

[Pandemonium]

Armored trains were more like movable fortresses, and not really for close combat. They provided massive direct and indirect fire to support the troops. the armed train had become a symbol in Russia during the Civil war when both sides made extensive use of them. Each wagon accomodated an independed unit, so the when one was destroyed the other could keep the fighting going.

They are extremely vulnerable to infantry attacks, or Guerillia, the train became a trap, and a killzone for its crew. Altough the German used them against partisans

the British already used armored trains during the Boer war. Winston Churchill was taken prisoner when the boers derailed and overrun one, approx 150 British soldiers died

The last armored train, for as far as i know, that saw combat, was used against Castro's rebels.

WW2 armored tyrains were mainly knocked out tanks or detached cupolas attached to flat railwaycars with additional armored plates.

Slovanian
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/6172/zvolenvlak15.jpg

German
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/419/sovt34train01.jpg
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2552/sovt34train04.jpg

German Armored Train Blücher
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/7246/sovt34train06blucher.jpg

German Armored Train Mïchael
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/7451/sovt34train07michael.jpg

Russian Armored Train
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/939/cw11.jpg
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/9551/pocoloniagora.jpg
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/5449/81454444.jpg

Russian Armored Train Lenin
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/7619/armoredtrainlenin.jpg

Finnish Armored Train
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1091/armored20train202.jpg

German Armed Train
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/7388/germantrooptrain1.jpg

An armored train commander directs fire from a Pz. IV mounted on a flatcar.
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/5475/anarmoredtraincommander.jpg

German Armed Car
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/57/armedcar.jpg

Estonian Armored Train Cupola
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/2999/p1190262.jpg

Estonian Armored Train Insigna
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/4192/soomusrong.jpg

[LordKitchener]

Well they kept the irreplaceable pieces of looted Nazi art safe while it was being transported around Europe.

[noneck11]

There was an armoured train that the RSK Army used in 1993. It ran from Gracac up to Medak and was used against the HV attack into the Pocket in Sept.

It had tank turrets, artillery and Anti aircraft guns on it. It also had a huge Serb eagle painted on the front of it. When I saw it, it was covered from view at the Roka Junction. It may also have been used to bring Serb reinforcments from Bosnia up to the frontline at Medak.

I wish I had pics of it.

[Elfstone44]

You all have forgotten the Balkan's 1990's wars. Serbian armored trains.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=123165&page=3

[GazB]

At the momentim falling asleep, so i cant think of any battle that was affected by the arival of reinforcments by train.

The Soviet forces fighting in Manchuria against the Japanese at the end of WWII didn't get their by boat or plane or truck. They all went via train.


then again, whichever armored train your talking about, they still would have been rendered useless if segments of the rail were destroyed.

Track is easy to damage, but also relatively easy to repair too. Rail transport basically moved Soviet Industry beyond the Urals out of reach of German air power. It was also the backbone of supply in Russia and has been for some time.

As I said before it was not replacement for a tank, but having mobile and protected HQs was very valuable and useful. When used to protect trains and rail lines or to move around commanders it was excellent and was not effected by rain or cold like the roads in the Soviet Union were.

As they advanced the Germans ripped up the Soviet track and layed their own guage track and as the Soviets pushed back they did the reverse. Both saw it to be useful to have their own trains running on tracks the enemy couldn't use.

[1911-a1]

There was an armoured train that the RSK Army used in 1993. It ran from Gracac up to Medak and was used against the HV attack into the Pocket in Sept.

It had tank turrets, artillery and Anti aircraft guns on it. It also had a huge Serb eagle painted on the front of it. When I saw it, it was covered from view at the Roka Junction. It may also have been used to bring Serb reinforcments from Bosnia up to the frontline at Medak.

I wish I had pics of it.

The Krajina Ekspres :D

http://uppladdning.com/uploads/1238392840382.jpg

[kiwitankie]

The last armored train, for as far as i know, that saw combat, was used against Castro's rebels.

Slovanian


There has been much more modern use than that. Malaya, Vietnam, Burma, Rhodesia, Mozambique to name but a few.

For instance see some examples of Rhodesian rolling stock used in 1970-80's http://www.geoffs-trains.com/Museum/exhibitarmouredtrolley.html

Paul

[Kvakva]

Armored trains in Chechnya 2002 (in russian)
http://otvaga2004.narod.ru/publ_w5/004_train.htm

[khalifah]

thanks GazB, learn something every day.
That Estonian Badge looks great.

[kilroy1911]

[QUOTE=http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7269/800pxpancierovyvlakzvol.th.jpg/QUOTE]

this is slovakian armored train, not polish... it was manufactured and used during slovak national uprising in 1944 and used against the germans. Now it is on display in museum (or it is a post war mock-up model? not sure...) During the uprising 3 or 4 trains were build and thanks to extensive railroad network with many tunnels as a makeshift shelters they prove to be quite effective

[Smok]

During German invasion in 1939 Polish armored trains were found to be quite good weapons. Especially as moving artillery batteries and also in AT role.
More here (english and polish)
http://derela.republika.pl/armtrain.htm

[RWR]

Aftermath of battle.
VRS armored train captured by Bosnian Army.
Gradacac, Bosnia 1992.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nMN33lUzxk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx5AVzzXYBU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN4tERZOCMw

Train today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azrNFUnqX0U

[Elfstone44]

http://inlinethumb49.webshots.com/41904/2828907100104377215S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2828907100104377215ffxeSp)

http://inlinethumb24.webshots.com/41879/2731275870104377215S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2731275870104377215QFVgWX)


Actually if you stop to think about it, during the Russian Civil Red-White war..an armored train made sense....It carried heavy guns with ranges up to 30 km...and the entire campaign red-white was fought along the Transsiberian railway and the Ukranian railway system...both vital for resupplying and moving troops.... An armored train was an ideal way to bring tremendous firepower onto the main axis of the campaign...anything further off the railway wasn't important and probably couldn't be supported logistically being that the roads were quagmires or giant potholes.

+ probably easier to repair a railway than a road capable of sustaining 24hr traffic by 10 ton trucks? (ok ... open to counter arguements but the WWII railways certainly were quickly repaired.)

[Supe]

http://inlinethumb49.webshots.com/41904/2828907100104377215S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2828907100104377215ffxeSp)

http://inlinethumb24.webshots.com/41879/2731275870104377215S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2731275870104377215QFVgWX)


What movie/doco are those stills taken from?

[silentpartner]

What movie/doco are those stills taken from?

It's from David Lean's filmatic adaptation of Boris Pasternak's novel Doctor Zhivago.

[nemowork]

Actually if you stop to think about it, during the Russian Civil Red-White war..an armored train made sense....It carried heavy guns with ranges up to 30 km...and the entire campaign red-white was fought along the Transsiberian railway and the Ukranian railway system...both vital for resupplying and moving troops.... An armored train was an ideal way to bring tremendous firepower onto the main axis of the campaign...anything further off the railway wasn't important and probably couldn't be supported logistically being that the roads were quagmires or giant potholes. And not just for transporting guns and soldiers round, at least one British squadron in the unofficial Western involvement around Kharkov acquired their own train as a kind of land based aircraft carrier. The train carries the spares, engineer workshops and so on, you stop by a flat piece of land for a dirt strip and your ready to go!
Another unusual RAF unit had also been making its way to the Kharkov front. Comprised of volunteers from the Training Mission at Taganrog, Z Flight was an R.E.8 unit commanded by Squadron Leader J.O. Archer. Somehow it acquired its own train. This unit’s achievements were closely linked to those of Collishaw’s squadron. While based northeast of Kharkov, Z Flight almost achieved immortality in December 1919 when Archer sought permission for his R.E.8s to bomb Moscow. Holman curtly turned him down.
Meanwhile Collishaw, with A and Z flights, had been conducting a fighting retreat from the Kharkov front, moving toward Rostov. Z Flight’s train with Holman aboard made it across Rostov bridge. But when A Flight with Collishaw tried to follow, they found the Red cavalry had cut the rail lines. This forced them to head southwest to the Crimea, with a Red armored train in hot pursuit. At one fuel stop the Reds sent an unmanned locomotive hurtling into the rear of Collishaw’s train, destroying eight wagons but miraculously causing no casualties. A Flight’s nightmare journey ended when it reached the Crimea on January 4, 1920. http://www.historynet.com/biplane-battle-flying-against-the-bolsheviks-during-russias-civil-war.htm/6

[Wally1967]

Were there any post WW2 amour train(s)? ie Korea war.

[ferguson]

Cool pics.
Never saw those preserved ones before.

[Flamming_Python]

Awesome armoured train battle from the movie 'Reds'.

Part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/v/7RrJBdOwrpM&hl=en_GB&fs=1&

Part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/v/1DDK8bC_0Pk&hl=en_GB&fs=1&

[Tank34]

I find armored trains interesting. I know they were used extensively in Russia during both world wars. I think they would have been especially effective for hauling large artillery guns in areas where the roads were particularly bad and for protecting troops and amunition from strafing attacks but it seems to me the rail they ran over would be a real weakness. All an enemy needs to to is take out a section of rail in front and another in back of the train and it is completely immobilized.

Trains are main transport in large scale wars, it is impossible to supply 2-3 millions strength army without railroad . The most effective way to clear IEDs, repair railroad, and fast repel minor attacks is armored trains. They protect the arteries which supply army.
And railroad can be repaired extremely quickly, they have all needed equipment. 50 meters per hour.

Plus long range artillery of course.

[Tank34]

Were there any post WW2 amour train(s)? ie Korea war.
In Russia. We still have some of them on duty. They were used during Second Chechen war.

[tafka10]

Estonian armored train

115692

[Wally1967]

In Russia. We still have some of them on duty. They were used during Second Chechen war.

Any known pics of it?

[briantk]

I remember looking at book about armor warfare during Korean War and in one page there is picture of improvised armored train with caption stating that armored train were used to fight off communist partisans.

[Mastermind]

I think there probably was a practical use for these weapons. Although their limitations are certainly obvious, soldiers probably could also see the practical side. They could carry massive fire power and supplies. They were fast. They could be protected by the many tunnels built into rail lines...so for tactical support, commanders no doubt thought of the potential to get artillery trains onto a battle area quickly and with a certain surprise to the enemy. Also, the mere presence of them and the existing railways no doubt gave defenders and offensive planners a reason to reconsider certain areas as being vulnerable in event of an armored train should suddenly appear and let loose, infantry, artilelry and other battle support.

I think the best action i ever heard of involving a military train was the sudden surprising encounter between the armored train in Romania and the B-24 Liberators of the strike force against Ploesti. The train was moving at speed, in the same direction and parallel to the flight path of the B-24's and the AC gunners traded extensive fire against the train gunners...who shot down several B-24's. Due to the heavy bomb loads and the altitude, the fight lasted several minutes...the AC passing the train at only about 55 mph relative speed.

[String]

It's a bit of a necro but google brought this up.

During the Estonian war of Independence armored trains were very much worth it. Although ad-hoc in construction, often having only double walls with sand or sandbags in between for armor, they had a great effect on the war, especially during the first, most decisive phase. As they had their own complement of infantry with them, ranging from platoon sized to a reduced batallion in the later stages of the war, they could and were used offensively. In fact, two armored trains, seizing the initiative and acting without higher orders, managed to recapture (with the help of locally organized partisans) the second largest city in Estonia. Their bold offensive operations were possible because of the low concentration of forces on the frontlines and low amounts of artillery on both sides.

Due to their large firepower (up to 4 guns and 20 machineguns) they could easily supress anything in direct fire range and were capable of repairing railroad tracks on their own. Later in the war special repair trains were formed that were capable of rebuilding bridges over major rivers within 5 days.

Also, 9 times out of 10, when encountering communist or german armored trains, they came out on top. In fact i've yet to uncover instances, aside a few inconclusive skirmishes where both sides retreated, where estonian armored trains were defeated by enemy armored trains. I've also failed to find a reason for this. The estonian trains weren't that good, being improvised from regular cars. I suspect it might be because the crews were mostly volunteers and good leadership.

[LineDoggie]

Were there any post WW2 amour train(s)? ie Korea war.Yes, I've seen a picture of a US Armored train in Squardron/Signals Armor in Korea. Operated in Pusan area by 845th MP's according to the motto painted outside. Apparently Partisan Activity after the breakout was a serious concern.

On a Side note, trains can be made useless, rather easily. Jack Singlaubs OSS team stopped rail traffic in Southern France by blowing a foot off each piece of curved track (it being harder to have pre-prepared spares for) along the line.

[Son of Damian]

Not as an offensive weapon due to being tied to rails, but they were quite useful for mobile defence.

In the right circumstances an armored train could be an effect offensive weapon. Just hours after Italy entered WW1 on the Allies side an Austro-Hungarian armored train crossed the border to an Italian train station. Made hell of a mess to the rolling stock and the station itself before sneaking back across the border.