AntiZionism being AntiSemitism and open support of terrorism, in US university.

[Mr.Flint]

Attacking Sderot in America

Jacob Shrybman recounts unfriendly welcome at US university where he presented Sderot’s grim reality Jacob Shrybman Published: 03.30.09, 11:37 / Israel Opinion (http://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,L-3084,00.html)

Recently I shared the human side of the conflict in southern Israel (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284752,00.html) and told my personal stories from Sderot in a presentation at DePaul University in Chicago sponsored by StandWithUs, Hillel, and the university’s Political Science department. As a representative of Sderot Media Center, I traveled from Israel to explain the daily reality of rocket fire that has been plaguing the country for the past eight years.

Several anti-Israel posters draped the entrance to the building in which I was to tell my personal stories. I began my presentation with a small audience of around 20 people and as my presentation went on the room began filling with people not merely against Israel’s political policies and action, but also in clear support of terrorist group Hamas.

When I welcomed the custom of a question and answer period following my presentation, the very right of free speech that I welcomed to the audience of now over 100 people was thrown in my face and denied to me. First, an audience member verbally attacked me, expressed his support for the firing of rockets into Israel, and ended his anti-Semitic rhetoric filled rant with a question irrelevant to anything in my presentation. I then pointed out to the audience the same fact I want to point out in this article, that this person was not simply criticizing Israel but was clearly expressing his support for a terrorist organization.
Free speech denied

Yet before I could finish answering the question, I was interrupted and silenced by the overwhelming Hamas supporters. Next, another audience member stood up and screamed out, calling me a “dirty whore” in Arabic and proceeding to grab his crotch and scream “Here’s your Qassam!” in Arabic.

My free speech was denied, I was not able to utter a word, and the event was terminated. As I was collecting my belongings amidst the continuing anti-Semitic harassment, a small group of audience members interested in my presentation approached me and expressed their resentment over the interruption and their fear to speak out. The local police teamed with university security then had to escort me to my car several blocks down the street.

As I was there to tell the human side of Sderot’s daily reality of rockets, these Hamas supporters laughed at raw footage of kindergarten children running for shelter as a Qassam was fired at their city. If it wasn’t clear before, it was clear to me then that these people were not there to learn about this reality or gain understanding of the trauma and suffering in southern Israel, or even object to my personal stories. These people were there for one reason: It was an event about the Jewish State of Israel to whose existence they blatantly object. How was I even to proceed with promoting human understanding if the unruly crowd didn’t even recognize my basic right as a Jew to live in Israel?





This past week I have answered email after email, phone call after phone call from everyone ranging from people at the event, to event organizers, to journalists, to heads of major organizations. It is saddening that not one of the emails or phone calls was about the fact that more than three out of four children in Sderot have Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) or that now one million Israelis live under the daily threat of rockets. No one remembers the story I told of the baby in the stroller gasping while pointing to the sky as the Color Red alarm sounded in downtown Sderot. The message I brought from Israel was lost.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3694275,00.html

[California Joe]

What's your point? College kids also wear Che shirts, binge drink, grow dodgy facial hair and predictably act like assholes on a daily basis.

Sorry if that makes you feel like a victim of an anti zionist conspiracy. In reality, it's a handful of ****heads. If he was anti gay marriage there would have been a few more.

[Mr.Flint]

What's your point? College kids also wear Che shirts, binge drink, grow dodgy facial hair and predictably act like assholes on a daily basis.

Sorry if that makes you feel like a victim of anti zionists.
My point is that despite the claims that anti zionsim is not anti semitism, more and more cases (as this one, or the one with the French supermarket) show that anti zionism is indeed anti semitism.
Moreover the typical claim of anti zionists that they are against violence and terrorism is again debunked as falsehood.

Note its not about just college kids, but about those who put them on it,

To expand on the topic, an excellent editorial from Khaled Abu Toameh on the issue

On Campus: The Pro-Palestinians' Real Agenda

During a recent visit to several university campuses in the U.S., I discovered that there is more sympathy for Hamas there than there is in Ramallah.
Listening to some students and professors on these campuses, for a moment I thought I was sitting opposite a Hamas spokesman or a would-be-suicide bomber.
I was told, for instance, that Israel has no right to exist, that Israel’s “apartheid system” is worse than the one that existed in South Africa and that Operation Cast Lead was launched only because Hamas was beginning to show signs that it was interested in making peace and not because of the rockets that the Islamic movement was launching at Israeli communities.
I was also told that top Fatah operative Marwan Barghouti, who is serving five life terms in prison for masterminding terror attacks against Israeli civilians, was thrown behind bars simply because he was trying to promote peace between Israelis and Palestinians.
Furthermore, I was told that all the talk about financial corruption in the Palestinian Authority was “Zionist propaganda” and that Yasser Arafat had done wonderful things for his people, including the establishment of schools, hospitals and universities.
The good news is that these remarks were made only by a minority of people on the campuses who describe themselves as “pro-Palestinian,” although the overwhelming majority of them are not Palestinians or even Arabs or Muslims.
The bad news is that these groups of hard-line activists/thugs are trying to intimidate anyone who dares to say something that they don’t like to hear.
When the self-designated “pro-Palestinian” lobbyists are unable to challenge the facts presented by a speaker, they resort to verbal abuse.
On one campus, for example, I was condemned as an “idiot” because I said that a majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas in the January 2006 election because they were fed up with financial corruption in the Palestinian Authority.
On another campus, I was dubbed as a “mouthpiece for the Zionists” because I said that Israel has a free media. There was another campus where someone told me that I was a ‘liar” because I said that Barghouti was sentenced to five life terms because of his role in terrorism.
And then there was the campus (in Chicago) where I was “greeted” with swastikas that were painted over posters promoting my talk. The perpetrators, of course, never showed up at my event because they would not be able to challenge someone who has been working in the field for nearly 30 years.
What struck me more than anything else was the fact that many of the people I met on the campuses supported Hamas and believed that it had the right to “resist the occupation” even if that meant blowing up children and women on a bus in downtown Jerusalem.
I never imagined that I would need police protection while speaking at a university in the U.S. I have been on many Palestinian campuses in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and I cannot recall one case where I felt intimidated or where someone shouted abuse at me.
Ironically, many of the Arabs and Muslims I met on the campuses were much more understanding and even welcomed my “even-handed analysis” of the Israeli-Arab conflict. After all, the views I voiced were not much different than those made by the leaderships both in Israel and the Palestinian Authority. These views include support for the two-state solution and the idea of coexistence between Jews and Arabs in this part of the world.
The so-called pro-Palestinian “junta” on the campuses has nothing to offer other than hatred and de-legitimization of Israel. If these folks really cared about the Palestinians, they would be campaigning for good government and for the promotion of values of democracy and freedom in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Their hatred for Israel and what it stands for has blinded them to a point where they no longer care about the real interests of the Palestinians, namely the need to end the anarchy and lawlessness, and to dismantle all the armed gangs that are responsible for the death of hundreds of innocent Palestinians over the past few years.
The majority of these activists openly admit that they have never visited Israel or the Palestinian territories. They don’t know -and don’t want to know - that Jews and Arabs here are still doing business together and studying together and meeting with each other on a daily basis because they are destined to live together in this part of the world. They don’t want to hear that despite all the problems life continues and that ordinary Arab and Jewish parents who wake up in the morning just want to send their children to school and go to work before returning home safely and happily.
What is happening on the U.S. campuses is not about supporting the Palestinians as much as it is about promoting hatred for the Jewish state. It is not really about ending the “occupation” as much as it is about ending the existence of Israel.
Many of the Palestinian Authority and Hamas officials I talk to in the context of my work as a journalist sound much more pragmatic than most of the anti-Israel, “pro-Palestinian” folks on the campuses.
Over the past 15 years, much has been written and said about the fact that Palestinian school textbooks don’t promote peace and coexistence and that the Palestinian media often publishes anti-Israel material.
While this may be true, there is no ignoring the fact that the anti-Israel campaign on U.S. campuses is not less dangerous. What is happening on these campuses is not in the frame of freedom of speech. Instead, it is the freedom to disseminate hatred and violence. As such, we should not be surprised if the next generation of jihadists comes not from the Gaza Strip or the mountains and mosques of Pakistan and Afghanistan, but from university campuses across the U.S.
http://www.hudsonny.org/2009/03/on-campus-the-pro-palestinians-real-agenda.php

[CMNot]

Firstly, you can be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic. You can like Jews, and choose not to support a Jewish state.

Secondly, this guy needs to grow a pair - he's worded his article to sound like his right of free speech was impinged by authorities. So some kids shouted over him so he couldn't be heard. That's not infinging freedom of speech, ffs.

[Player]

Firstly, you can be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic. You can like Jews, and choose not to support a Jewish state.

Secondly, this guy needs to grow a pair - he's worded his article to sound like his right of free speech was impinged by authorities. So some kids shouted over him so he couldn't be heard. That's not infinging freedom of speech, ffs.

x2

Anti-Zionism is an opposition to a nationalistic movement called "Zionism" whilst anti-Semitism is racism.

I know many people who disagree with Zionism but they have completely no problem with the Jewish ethnicity and religion.

And what is the big deal anyway? If there are some people who hide their anti Semitism under anti Zionist flag, they in no means represent all people who criticize the Jewish state or oppose the nationalistic movement of Zionism.

And what is even more pointless is that some people work so hard to get their unprovable point proven.

[Red_Rage]

What's your point? College kids also wear Che shirts, binge drink, grow dodgy facial hair and predictably act like assholes on a daily basis.

Sorry if that makes you feel like a victim of an anti zionist conspiracy. In reality, it's a handful of ****heads. If he was anti gay marriage there would have been a few more.


Che shirts are a bit passe. It's Palestinian scarves that are hip nowdays.

I would much rather prefered if this zionism/anti-zionism struggle was contained in the Middle East and away from this side of the ocean. Just as a courtesy to all the non-Jews and non-Muslims, who could not care less about hate wars taking place between Israel and its neighbours. Unfortunately, N.America became a giant lobby hub for entire world and its problems.

[Player]

Che shirts are a bit passe. It's Palestinian scarves that are hip nowdays.

I would much rather prefered if this zionism/anti-zionism struggle was contained in the Middle East and away from this side of the ocean. Just as a courtesy to all the non-Jews and non-Muslims, who could not care less about hate wars taking place between Israel and its neighbours. Unfortunately, N.America became a giant lobby hub for entire world and its problems.

If you couldn't care less then why to post? Nobody is forcing you to involve in foreign politics, but some of the Americans happen to be interested in foreign affairs, and some of them happen to be supporters or critics.

[Mu-Meson]

Someone calling Khaled Abu Toameh a "mouthpiece for the Zionists". Lol.

As for AntiZionism = AntiSemitism. Well, sure they aren't defined as the same thing, but overwhelmingly when a person has the former, the latter is usually somewhere near by. CMN or Player, do you suppose these people who demonize Israelis, support terrorist actions, call for the destruction of Israel, deny/minimize the extent of the Holocaust, call Israelis "Nazis", compare Israel to apartheid South Africa, intimidate people on campus, etc etc etc actually have a bunch of Jewish friends?
Do you really think that a person who can laugh, LAUGH for f*cks sake, at a video of children running from incoming missiles gives a fig about Jewish childrens lives? If they laugh when it is Jewish children, but scream, and rage when it is 'supposedly' Palestinian children, well that IS antiSemitism.
CaliJoe; if it was really "a handful of ****heads" then there wouldn't be a problem. At 46, it has probably been a while since you attending university. As a current Uni student, I can tell you. It is not a handful, its thousands. Recent Israel Awareness Week events were sadly well attended. And frankly, his free speech was denied. Free speech is most important for those with whom you disagree. Otherwise it is meaningless.

[Mr.Flint]

x2

Anti-Zionism is an opposition to a nationalistic movement called "Zionism" whilst anti-Semitism is racism.
Even if that opposition is based on racist premises?



I know many people who disagree with Zionism but they have completely no problem with the Jewish ethnicity and religion.
But disagreeing with Zionism, they essentially disagree with both the religion and the rights of that ethnicity.



And what is the big deal anyway? If there are some people who hide their anti Semitism under anti Zionist flag, they in no means represent all people who criticize the Jewish state or oppose the nationalistic movement of Zionism.
See the above. or have a look at the french greenshirts vid.



And what is even more pointless is that some people work so hard to get their unprovable point proven.
Sorry but i disagree, the point is not unprovable, and is easily proven. Even more so today

[Lau]

x2

Anti-Zionism is an opposition to a nationalistic movement called "Zionism" whilst anti-Semitism is racism.

I know many people who disagree with Zionism but they have completely no problem with the Jewish ethnicity and religion.

And what is the big deal anyway? If there are some people who hide their anti Semitism under anti Zionist flag, they in no means represent all people who criticize the Jewish state or oppose the nationalistic movement of Zionism.

And what is even more pointless is that some people work so hard to get their unprovable point proven.

Quoted For Truth.

[Red_Rage]

If you couldn't care less then why to post? Nobody is forcing you to involve in foreign politics, but some of the Americans happen to be interested in foreign affairs, and some of them happen to be supporters or critics.


Because it is not exclusive to message boards. Israeli gung-ho attitude and Palestinian "play victim" campaign pretty much spills into everyday reality.

I really do not want to look at 4 huge "Support Israel" posters on my way to work here in Toronto; I did not want to see Arab/Israeli fanboi fights on weekly basis during university days. I don't want to be bothered on the street with stupid "Support Israel" or "Stop Israeli aggression" flyers. I really don't understand why there are 5 Jewish community centers within 10 min drive from my house - all very modern and expensive buildings, all have highly polticized messages on banners hanging from them. Lobbying, lobbying and more lobbying. Being from an ethnic group that does not lobby at all and is contempt with the local "party line", these agendas cause nothing but irritation to me.

[philbob]

If you couldn't care less then why to post? Nobody is forcing you to involve in foreign politics, but some of the Americans happen to be interested in foreign affairs, and some of them happen to be supporters or critics.


actually cloths with the Sickle and hammer are what is hot right now

[Zeev]

x2
I know many people who disagree with Zionism but they have completely no problem with the Jewish ethnicity and religion.
.

yep, but considering that 95% of jews in the world supports israel, they will have problems with jews one day or another, exept if their jewish friends are only far lefts a$$hats.

Anti zionism is not an opinion , it is racism beacuse it denies the right to a ppl to have his own nation, and all peoples have the right to have their nations, jews, kurds, palestinians, etc, and no one have the moral right to refuse them a nation.

Anti zionism is not against some israeli policies, which would be absolutely legitim, it is against the right to existance of the state of israel, and so, the annihilation of the israelis, because you couldn't be against the existance of a nation, and at the same time, have nothing against its population.

[Mr.Flint]

Because it is not exclusive to message boards. Israeli gung-ho attitude and Palestinian "play victim" campaign pretty much spills into everyday reality.

I really do not want to look at 4 huge "Support Israel" posters on my way to work here in Toronto; I did not want to see Arab/Israeli fanboi fights on weekly basis during university days. I don't want to be bothered on the street with stupid "Support Israel" or "Stop Israeli aggression" flyers. I really don't understand why there are 5 Jewish community centers within 10 min drive from my house - all very modern and expensive buildings, all have highly polticized messages on banners hanging from them. Lobbying, lobbying and more lobbying. Being from an ethnic group that does not lobby at all and is contempt with the local "party line", these agendas cause nothing but irritation to me.
What does the amount and the distance of jewish community centers from your house, has to do with the topic?

Oh and if you assume that Russians dont lobby, you are quite mistaken.

[NoRestForTheWeary]

...
Anti zionism is not an opinion , it is racism beacuse it denies the right to a ppl to have his own nation, and all peoples have the right to have their nations, jews, kurds, palestinians, etc, and no one have the moral right to refuse them a nation.

Anti zionism is not against some israeli policies, which would be absolutely legitim, it is against the right to existance of the state of israel, and so, the annihilation of the israelis, because you couldn't be against the existance of a nation, and at the same time, have nothing against its population.

Kurdish and Palestinian are not religions, though.

Besides, aren't there numerous Arab-Israelis? Therefore you can't automatically group Israeli with Jew just to prove a point.

I am not against Judaism but I'm not exactly in favor of any state declaring power in the name of any religion.

[Mr.Flint]

Kurdish and Palestinian are not religions, though.
Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew



Besides, aren't there numerous Arab-Israelis? Therefore you can't automatically group Israeli with Jew just to prove a point.
Doesnt change anything.


I am not against Judaism but I'm not exactly in favor of any state declaring power in the name of any religion.
But it was not in the name of a religion.

[zad]

zionism is not an opinion , it is racism beacuse it denies the right to a ppl to have his own nation, and all peoples have the right to have their nations, jews, kurds, palestinians,
Nice to see than I am not the only one around here supporting palestinian right to have their own nation.

[Mr.Flint]

Nice to see than I am not the only one around here supporting palestinian right to have their own nation.
They already have one, its called Jordan, formerly of British Mandate of Palestine. So no one really ever denied their right.

[zad]

They already have one, its called Jordan, formerly of British Mandate of Palestine. So no one really ever denied their right.
I am afraid that opinion is just shared by hard line zionists. Hopefully in 40 years time we will see a two states solution living in peacefull coexistence. I am an optimist, I know.

[Mr.Flint]

I am afraid that opinion is just shared by hard line zionists.
Doesnt make the point any less valid.

Hopefully in 40 years time we will see a two states solution living in peacefull coexistence. I am an optimist, I know.
Might happen sooner, when folks will stop buying Arab oil.

[Player]

But disagreeing with Zionism, they essentially disagree with both the religion and the rights of that ethnicity.

Why should that ethnicity have special rights in a multi-ethnic land? This is plain and simple nationalism.

As for the religion, I disagree with it myself. Does that make me an anti-Semite now?

On the other hand if I hated the people who believe in Judaism or who are Jewish by ethnicity then this would make me an anti-Semite.


Sorry but i disagree, the point is not unprovable, and is easily proven. Even more so today

Let's agree to disagree then. You can't label somebody a racist just because he criticizes a nationalistic movement, these are two completely different things. In other words there is a difference between people themselves and their motives/ideology, in this case an anti-Semite is the one who is against the people themselves whilst an anti-Zionist is the one who is against their motive/ideology.


yep, but considering that 95% of jews in the world supports israel, they will have problems with jews one day or another, exept if their jewish friends are only far lefts a$$hats.

Well, if these 95% are so close minded that some political disagreement would lead to personal problems then no thanks, I prefer to be one of the 5%.


Anti zionism is not an opinion , it is racism beacuse it denies the right to a ppl to have his own nation, and all peoples have the right to have their nations, jews, kurds, palestinians, etc, and no one have the moral right to refuse them a nation.

Jews were a nation long before Zionism was even created, do I need to say anything more than that?


Anti zionism is not against some israeli policies, which would be absolutely legitim, it is against the right
to existance of the state of israel, and so, the annihilation of the israelis, because you couldn't be against the existance of a nation, and at the same time, have nothing against its population.

Anti-Zionism is not against the population or the right of Israel to exist but against the Jewish nationalism within a multi-ethnic society in which all people have equal rights. This is not anti-Semitism which is a discrimination and hatred towards people themselves.

[Player]

Because it is not exclusive to message boards. Israeli gung-ho attitude and Palestinian "play victim" campaign pretty much spills into everyday reality.

I really do not want to look at 4 huge "Support Israel" posters on my way to work here in Toronto; I did not want to see Arab/Israeli fanboi fights on weekly basis during university days. I don't want to be bothered on the street with stupid "Support Israel" or "Stop Israeli aggression" flyers. I really don't understand why there are 5 Jewish community centers within 10 min drive from my house - all very modern and expensive buildings, all have highly polticized messages on banners hanging from them. Lobbying, lobbying and more lobbying. Being from an ethnic group that does not lobby at all and is contempt with the local "party line", these agendas cause nothing but irritation to me.

I understand your concern, but this is a price of democracy and freedom of demonstration I guess. :)


actually cloths with the Sickle and hammer are what is hot right now

I lol'd.

[LaoSexMachine]

It's a free country.

[Dan2004]

It's a free country.

Exactly. It's a free country. You have the uninfringed right to say whatever you feel, no matter how retarded it may be.

Whatever happened to "I don't like what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it?"

[Mr.Flint]

Why should that ethnicity have special rights in a multi-ethnic land? This is plain and simple nationalism.
Never took you for a single state solution proponent...

Who said anything about special rights? The right to self determination is not considered a special one, and woe upon someone who calls it nationalism, unless it has something to do with jews.



As for the religion, I disagree with it myself. Does that make me an anti-Semite now?
I dont know, do you disagree with it in the manner of Shahak, or Lieberman?



On the other hand if I hated the people who believe in Judaism or who are Jewish by ethnicity then this would make me an anti-Semite.
Hating people for their belief in Zionism is the same.



Let's agree to disagree then. You can't label me a racist just because I criticize a nationalistic movement,
But i dont call you a racist for criticizing what you call a nationalistic movement (for the record i dont call you a racist at all)
Like i said, merely criticizing (especially when the criticism is merited and balanced) the government or the movement is neither wrong, nor it makes you an Anti-Zionist.

But declaring oneself to be Anti-Zionist because you disagree with the jewish right for self determination (as well as self defense and others) is racist.




these are two completely different things.
In other words there is a difference between people themselves and their motives/ideology, in this case an anti-Semite is the one who is against the people themselves whilst an anti-Zionist is the one who is against their motive/ideology.
Then you willfully ignore the fact that the vast majority of anti-zionists are against the people themselves under the premise of being against ideology.





Well, if these 95% are so close minded that some political disagreement would lead to personal problems then no thanks, I prefer to be one of the 5%.
I hope that you simply misunderstood what Zeev was trying to say.
Because if you did understand correctly, it sounds to me that you are willing to accept anything, including being stripped of your rights, just so you wont be lumped with the Zionists...
Like being one of these who will be allowed to remain in South Africa by COSATU
http://supernatural.blogs.com/weblog/2009/02/the-message-from-cosatu.html
http://blog.z-word.com/2009/02/cosatu-antisemitism-and-my-in-box/

Does it look like just anti-ideology? To me it looks like clear cut racism.




Jews were a nation long before Zionism was even created, do I need to say anything more than that?
And jewish desire to return to their own land, and be their own rulers, was long before Zionism, so?





Anti-Zionism is not against the population or the right of Israel to exist but against the Jewish nationalism within a multi-ethnic society in which all people have equal rights. This is not anti-Semitism which is a discrimination and hatred towards people.
Wrong.
Anti-Zionism is against the population because it percieves that population as criminals (occupiers, colonisers, oppressors, etc)
Its against right of Israel to exist as Israel. (It wants Isratine at best, that would become an Arabstan after a single election)
Since when Jewish nationalism ever denied anyone rights? How does it negates equal rights? Why Anti-Zionists consider Arab nationalism fine, but Jewish one to be something horrible?

[Mu-Meson]

I am afraid that opinion is just shared by hard line zionists.

Ah yes, Hardline Zionists such as Yasser Arafat have called Jordan "a Palestinian state". ~50% of the population IS Palestinian. Only 30% is Jordanian. De facto it IS a Palestinian state.

[Panchito12]

What's your point? College kids also wear Che shirts, binge drink, grow dodgy facial hair and predictably act like assholes on a daily basis.

Best thing to do is to try to get the names of the jerks and hopefully one day you find out where they work after college and subtly drop a line to his employer as to the person's behavior. Let's see how long they stay employed.

[AZZenny]

Sorry, I see over and over that the line between anti-zionism and anti-semitism is being deliberately or ignorantly blurred in the US. And in my view, because it forgives terrorists and focuses solely on removing Israel -- and it usually does in practical effect even if they dance around it in words -- it is very dangerous. It is a mind set that will feel rockets hitting Tel Aviv is justified, and that the Jews were asking for it. It is a mindset that sees US Jews as untrustworthy, as traitors, as a fifth column. It is plain old Protocol-strength anti-Semitism. IMO, anti-zionism is their excuse for anti-Semitism, and not the cause.

In my attempts to discuss support for Hamas with some of these folks, who include grown-up professors and lawyers and others, not all kids, I am stunned by their total ignorance of history. And I mean even the history that's pretty much agreed-on facts, as opposed to the mountain of stuff open to many interpretations -- these people just make **** up. One guy insisted that Gaza was Israel's only outlet to the Sea and that's why it 'still' occupied Gaza!! Maps be damned!

It is a small, but loud and growing sub-set of bigots who feel free to use really violent hate speech and threats. The idea that campuses let them get away with it against Israeli or Jewish speakers makes a mockery of free speech. You ignore this at your own peril.

[Player]

Who said anything about special rights? The right to self determination is not considered a special one, and woe upon someone who calls it nationalism, unless it has something to do with jews.

I'm sorry to say it but when it is a self determination of a certain ethnic group in a multi-ethnic society, it is in fact nationalism because it denies equal rights over the same territory where other ethnic groups live.

Israel is a Jewish state, is it Jewish in a religious way or an ethnic way? Both. Judaism is the state religion in Israel that affects daily lives of its citizens on a personal level hence Israel isn't a secular state. On the other hand the country is based on Zionistic ideals which means that despite the fact that the country is populated with few ethnic groups, only one of these ethnic groups has got a number of privileges/special rights over citizens of other ethnic groups in the same country. And yes this is indeed plain and simple nationalism.


I dont know, do you disagree with it in the manner of Shahak, or Lieberman?

I disagree with it in the manner of it being a state religion which opposes the principle of equality among all citizens of the country, one good example is that there is no such thing like civil marriage in Israel, only a religious one which takes away the right of non Jewish citizens to marry the Jewish ones.


Hating people for their belief in Zionism is the same.

Since when do anti-Nationalists hate people for their belief? This is wrong. And when we speak about their beliefs - hate is a strong word, disagreeing would fit just fine.


But i dont call you a racist for criticizing what you call a nationalistic movement (for the record i dont call you a racist at all)
Like i said, merely criticizing (especially when the criticism is merited and balanced) the government or the movement is neither wrong, nor it makes you an Anti-Zionist.

But declaring oneself to be Anti-Zionist because you disagree with the jewish right for self determination (as well as self defense and others) is racist.

It depends. There is nothing wrong with the Jewish right for self determination unless it has a direct affect on the rights of other ethnic groups within the same borders, hence if a person disagrees with this type of self determination or a nationalistic policy this doesn't make him a racist.


Then you willfully ignore the fact that the vast majority of anti-zionists are against the people themselves under the premise of being against ideology.

I agree that some anti-Zionists are also against the people themselves hence there is a more accurate definition for them - racists. But you can't say that all anti-Zionists are like that, therefore this doesn't change the fixed term for anti-Zionism which is an opposition to a nationalistic movement.

Forgive me that I have to say the same thing over and over again, this is because our major misunderstanding lies exactly here.


I hope that you simply misunderstood what Zeev was trying to say.
Because if you did understand correctly, it sounds to me that you are willing to accept anything, including being stripped of your rights, just so you wont be lumped with the Zionists...

I have no problems with the Evil Zionists, by the Iranian stone-age definition I am one Blood-Sucking Zionist myself, however this doesn't mean that I must agree with their line of thinking nor should I let them strip me off my rights just because we differ in our political views.


Does it look like just anti-ideology? To me it looks like clear cut racism.

Then try for a moment to look at it from my perspective.



Wrong.
Anti-Zionism is against the population because it percieves that population as criminals (occupiers, colonisers, oppressors, etc)

This is not true and I explained enough times why.



Its against right of Israel to exist as Israel. (It wants Isratine at best, that would become an Arabstan after a single election)

No, it is against the Jewish nationalism which results in un-equality on a national level among citizens.


Since when Jewish nationalism ever denied anyone rights?

Are non Jews allowed to marry with Jews within the country?


How does it negates equal rights?

Isn't it quite obvious? :)


Why Anti-Zionists consider Arab nationalism fine, but Jewish one to be something horrible?

Anti-Nationalists consider nationalism of any ethnic group something wrong which has no place in a modern democratic society, be it Zionism or an Arab nationalism.

As for myself, I'm simply trying to look at things from an objective point of view, this doesn't make me an anti-that or pro-that.

[CMNot]

Whatever happened to "I don't like what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it?"

A Frenchman came up with it, so no doubt it went the way of French fries circa 2003 p-)

[Eye]

Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew

Isn't it possible for me to convert to Judaism? :roll: I feel myself discriminated.

[Dan2004]

Isn't it possible for me to convert to Judaism? :roll:

My mom did a couple of years ago.

[Mr.Flint]

I'm sorry to say it but when it is a self determination of a certain ethnic group in a multi-ethnic society, it is in fact nationalism because it denies equal rights over the same territory where other ethnic groups live.
A. You say nationalism as its something wrong, which it isnt to a point.
B. It doesnt deny them equal rights, it doesnt deny them self determination (language, culture etc) most of the inequality happens because they deny themselves some rights due to their own political views.



Israel is a Jewish state, is it Jewish in a religious way or an ethnic way? Both.
I would say more culturaly than religiously.



Judaism is the state religion in Israel that affects daily lives of its citizens on a personal level hence Israel isn't a secular state.
Actually its not.
What you percieve as religious effect, is for the most part cultural.
IE- no one is forcing you not to drive or watch tv on shabbat, or eat kosher, or perform brit mila, or go to a sinagogue etc.



On the other hand the country is based on Zionistic ideals which means that despite the fact that the country is populated with few ethnic groups, only one of these ethnic groups has got a number of privileges/special rights over citizens of other ethnic groups in the same country. And yes this is indeed plain and simple nationalism.
You do realize that there is only one special right? and in that Israel is no different from any Western country?
You have a very simplistic view of what is nationalism, and because of it you are simply wrong about what you percieve as examples of it.




I disagree with it in the manner of it being a state religion which opposes the principle of equality among all citizens of the country, one good example is that there is no such thing like civil marriage in Israel, only a religious one which takes away the right of non Jewish citizens to marry the Jewish ones.
Its not a state religion, and the state doesnt deny anyone the right to live according to his own religion (including atheism)
Yes there is no civil marriage, and i agree that its wrong, but it has nothing to do with nationalism, nor it prevents non jewish citizens to marry the jewish ones, the state recognizes their marriage anyway.




Since when do anti-Nationalists hate people for their belief? This is wrong. And when we speak about their beliefs - hate is a strong word, disagreeing would fit just fine.
Anti Zionists do.
COSATU is just one example, there alot more examples in the west




It depends. There is nothing wrong with the Jewish right for self determination unless it has a direct affect on the rights of other ethnic groups within the same borders, hence if a person disagrees with this type of self determination or a nationalistic policy this doesn't make him a racist.
You are over simplifying again.
There is still nothing wrong with the Jewish right for self determination within the same borders as the other ethnic group, especially when a partition was proposed, and made.
Even their right to their own nation state is not denied - it exists.

If we follow you, then the German state has no right to be called German, the British one as well, and dont get me started on the French one! I mean how dare they are to push everyone that nationalistic policy of language? :roll:

Again i disagree with your oversimplification.

IMHO you need to read a bit more on the right of self-determination.

Moreover you ignore the goals of too many anti-zionists, that show that they are infact racist.




I agree that some anti-Zionists are also against the people themselves hence there is a more accurate definition for them - racists. But you can't say that all anti-Zionists are like that, therefore this doesn't change the fixed term for anti-Zionism which is an opposition to a nationalistic movement.
I can and i will, because all the evidence points to the fact that anti-Zionism is racist at its core.
Whether it is outbursts of COSATU in SA, activities of ISM in the US or Israel, etc. the evidence is clear.



Forgive me that I have to say the same thing over and over again, this is because our major misunderstanding lies exactly here.
As i said i disagree, mainly because all the evidence proves otherwise.




I have no problems with the Evil Zionists, by the Iranian stone-age definition I am one Blood-Sucking Zionist myself, however this doesn't mean that I must agree with their line of thinking nor should I let them strip me off my rights just because we differ in our political views.
The issue here is that most AntiZionists accept that Iranian stone-age definition.
Thats what Zeev was saying, that according to AntiZionists, all jews are evil zionazis, with the exception of those who are AntiZionists too.
And mind it, no one stripped you of your rights, but Zionists were and are being stripped of their rights. Even in Israel.





Then try for a moment to look at it from my perspective.
The issue is, that i dont even see your perspective, on one hand you seem to perceive the excesses of the religious sector as nationalism, on the other hand you seem to be calling to strip Israel of its Jewish nature (Isratine? Change of flag and anthem?)
And then some rather weird perception that you are being stripped of your rights.





This is not true and I explained enough times why.
Your explanations are contradicted, by what i hear and see at various antiZionists gatherings and activities.





No, it is against the Jewish nationalism which results in un-equality on a national level among citizens.
No, its not. for the most part, its for Arab nationalism, which is really un equal on any level.






Are non Jews allowed to marry with Jews within the country?
They are not prohibited.
But the issue of civil mariage has nothing to do with nationalism.




Isn't it quite obvious? :)
No its not. Or you still want to talk about the civil marriage issue?




Anti-Nationalists consider nationalism of any ethnic group something wrong which has no place in a modern democratic society, be it Zionism or an Arab nationalism.
Anti Zionists almost without exception support Arab Nationalism, even in its worst forms.



As for myself, I'm simply trying to look at things from an objective point of view, this doesn't make me an anti-that or pro-that.
I dont find your point of view very objective, but quite naive and simplistic. Although i do understand why do you have such view.

[Mr.Flint]

Isn't it possible for me to convert to Judaism? :roll: I feel myself discriminated.
Why not? If you really want to, you can... just be prepared to be constantly asked if you really really really sure about that :)

[Zeev]

Anti-Zionism is not against the population or the right of Israel to exist but against the Jewish nationalism within a multi-ethnic society in which all people have equal rights. This is not anti-Semitism which is a discrimination and hatred towards people themselves.

so what are you doing in israel? just go back in eastern europe or in north africa or middle east, whatever, because the country were you live born again because of the zionist ideology!

you seem to be very misinformed about what zionism is , surprising for an israeli! zionism were never racist or claim that jews should clean muslims or others from israel, zionism born at the end of the 19th century and claim that jews should came back to the land of their ancestors because it was their only chance to escape from oppression and to become again a nation, thats all, zionist never claim that jews cannot live on this place beside other groups, even if the land must be splited in two parts. and I don't talk about jordan, I do believe that a viable palestinian state will be gaza and wast bank, after borders modifications of course, Ariel and other big towns will never be given up, this is obvious, but in counter part of these towns that will stay in israel, I think that other parts should be given to palestinians.

[Player]

so what are you doing in israel? just go back in eastern europe or in north africa or middle east, whatever, because the country were you live born again because of the zionist ideology!

^ You see, this is exactly what I mean. It's not possible to have a normal open minded argument with nationalists because their logic is - Either you are with us or you are against us.

Oh and by the way, who the fvck are you to tell me where I should live and where not?

This is planet earth for god's sake and we all belong here, we are all humans.


you seem to be very misinformed about what zionism is , surprising for an israeli! zionism were never racist or claim that jews should clean muslims or others from israel, zionism born at the end of the 19th century and claim that jews should came back to the land of their ancestors because it was their only chance to escape from oppression and to become again a nation, thats all, zionist never claim that jews cannot live on this place beside other groups, even if the land must be splited in two parts. and I don't talk about jordan, I do believe that a viable palestinian state will be gaza and wast bank, after borders modifications of course, Ariel and other big towns will never be given up, this is obvious, but in counter part of these towns that will stay in israel, I think that other parts should be given to palestinians.

I'm not going to waste my time debating with children, or in the worst case adults who are still not mature enough to open their ears for criticism and their minds for reasoning this criticism nor their eyes which can see the world only in 2 colors - black and white.

As for knowledge about Zionism, trust me, I know waaay more about it than you think, and most likely even way more than you know about it yourself.

[Zeev]

I'm not going to waste my time debating with children, or in the worst case adults who are still not mature enough to open their ears for criticism and their minds for reasoning this criticism nor their eyes which can see the world only in 2 colors - black and white.

As for knowledge about Zionism, trust me, I know waaay more about it than you think, and most likely even way more than you know about it yourself.

I'm more than open to criticism, but to logical criticism, people like you are just living contradictions, you cannot sh*t on the foundations of a state that give you all you got, and if it is your case, then, there's not 100 words for that...

I never said that you cannot criticise aspects of modern zionism, but criticizing the whole zionist ideology without any nuances is kinda ironic from and israeli.. and if you would have read me better, you should saw that I'm far to be an integrist.

For the rest, you still didn't answer to my claims, so teacher, if you know better than me what zionism is, then give me a lesson, and expose us how much this movement was build on racism and intolerance...

[El Diablo Rojo]

But disagreeing with Zionism, they essentially disagree with both the religion and the rights of that ethnicity.
That's what I've always thought. Imagine what the reaction would be in the US is a congressman were to say, "I've got nothing against black people, I just don't think they should be allowed to vote, own guns or go to our schools." There would be rioting. Saying something even more despicable about Jews garners "mehs" and the like.

"I'm not antisemitic, I just don't think the Jews should be allowed to live peacefully in the land God gave them." Bull-friggin' horses h*t.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

LOL @Flint

Why don't you go the whole hog and get some accusations about holocaust denial and all Jews who criticize Israel being 'self-hating' as well :roll:

[Mr.Flint]

LOL @Flint

Why don't you go the whole hog and get some accusations about holocaust denial and all Jews who criticize Israel being 'self-hating' as well :roll:
I wonder why you felt the need to pipe in, with a rather typical irrelevant quip... The topic must have hit too close to comfort, right Stabby? :)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I wonder why you felt the need to pipe in, with a rather typical irrelevant quip... The topic must have hit too close to comfort, right Stabby? :)

I just thought your characteristically unimaginative efforts to stifle comment on the actions of the Israeli government should not go unremarked. And once again you predictably showed your sensitivity to criticism. How'd ya like having your buttons pressed :)

[uTu]

Attacking Sderot in America/ On Campus: The Pro-Palestinians' Real Agenda

Gee that seems crazy behaviour even 8 years after 9/11. In America!?!?. Pro-Hamas, Nazi carry-on openly in public. Crazy.

Zionism is merely a 2000 year old longing of a people to return & live in their ancestral home. It has been defined by terrorist groups and their supporters as something wrong when they are the true fascists.

Obviously their (Pro-Hamas losers) utter love of free speech means you should be able to print out gigantic humorous cartoons of Mohammed, go into their meeting places and call them 'whores', yell obscenities & make fun of the possible deaths of them & their loved ones. They would respect this because of their love of free speech.

These scumbags are mere rascists. Jew-haters, who would be wearing KKK uniforms in an earlier generation.

[Flamming_Python]

Player - respect :D

Israel and Palestine both need some cool heads and less ethno-temper tantrums.

[Mr.Flint]

I just thought your characteristically unimaginative efforts to stifle comment on the actions of the Israeli government should not go unremarked.
Really? how about pointing where exactly i stifled comment?
In the article? well if you had bothered to read it, and maybe pulled your head out of the ass of your bias (not that i would expect such effort from you) you would have noticed who exactly was stifled.
If im not mistaken, ive actually pointed, that i have nothing against valid and balanced criticism.

Isnt its ironic how quickly to went down to a rather typical modus operandi of deniers? who also like to whine about their criticism being stiffled...


And once again you predictably showed your sensitivity to criticism. How'd ya like having your buttons pressed :)
I didnt really notice much criticism on your part, just your typical whining, how dem evil jooos stifle everything.:roll:

So whose buttons where actually pushed? I mean you so pissed that you had to invoke deniers etc. :)