This Helps the Economy How? $11mil of the Porkulus Bill to Build Bridge For Microsoft

[Zoomie]

Critics slam Microsoft bridge as waste of stimulus money


REDMOND, Washington (CNN) -- Should a bridge that would connect two campuses at Microsoft's headquarters be funded with $11 million from the federal stimulus package?

Critics of using stimulus money for the bridge say it would give the software giant a break on a pet project. They also say it serves as a warning sign of how some stimulus money is not being used to finance new projects but is being diverted to public works already under way.
Supporters argue the bridge is an ideal public-private partnership that will benefit an entire community while fulfilling the stimulus package's goal of getting people back to work.
"It's going create just under 400 jobs for 18 months constructing the bridge," says Redmond Mayor John Marchione. "It's also connecting our technical sector with our retail and commercial sectors so people can cross the freeway to shop and help traffic flow."
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4558/largeoverpassredmond.jpg
Marchione applied for federal stimulus money after costs jumped on the project from $25 million to $36 million. Marchione says the increase in costs were due to a rise in construction prices and because the bridge will be built on a diagonal in order to connect Microsoft's original East campus with a newer West campus that are split by a public highway.
Microsoft (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/microsoft_corporation) is hardly getting the bridge for free. The company is contributing $17.5 million or a little less than half the tab of the $36 million bridge, which would be open for public use.
And even though the bridge goes from a parking lot behind Microsoft's West campus across a highway to an entrance of Microsoft's East campus, Marchione says, people other than Microsoft employees would use the overpass.
"We're not a one-company town," Marchione says. "Our traffic studies show that Microsoft traffic would be about 42 percent of the bridge, yet Microsoft is paying for about 50 percent of the bridge, so we think we are getting fair value.
"The United States taxpayer is leveraging their dollars, and I think everyone is getting a fair deal."
But a watchdog group monitoring how stimulus money is being spent says the taxpayer in this case is getting ripped off.
"This is $11 million where we are substituting public money for private money, and that means there's some other project that would have a greater benefit than a bridge to Microsoft that's not being built," says Steve Ellis, vice president of Taxpayers for Common Sense.
But without the stimulus money, Marchione counters, the bridge may not have been built. Microsoft had "capped out" its contribution to the project, he explains. And the economic tough times have affected even the biggest companies. "Microsoft laid off 5,000 people in January," Marchione points out.
Ellis doesn't buy it.
"Let's face it. Microsoft is one of the most lucrative companies in the country," Ellis says. "They could have easily funded this out of pocket change. This is really about getting while the getting is good. Uncle Sam has a big wallet that's there for the taking, and Redmond (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/redmond_washington) wanted to take it -- and Microsoft was happy to let them pick up that part of the tab."
Microsoft did not respond to CNN requests for an interview on the bridge project. But in a posting online, Microsoft general counsel Brad Smith wrote: "As the largest employer in Redmond, Microsoft takes its responsibility to the surrounding community seriously. We have spent over $50 million to assist the City of Redmond and other local governments with street construction, transit facilities, water and sewer facilities and fire equipment."
Last week, Washington Gov. Chris Gregoire certified 138 projects, including the bridge, to receive stimulus funding. Construction is expected to begin in June.
Michael Ennis of the Washington Policy Center, a Seattle-based not-for-profit group that advises policy makers, said there are many reasons the bridge project is a good one.
"Any time you can include the private sector in funding transportation projects, it's a win-win situation," Ennis explains. "The state has a monopoly on our roads system. Even if Microsoft wanted to pay for this project on their own, legally they are required to work with the public sector."
But Ennis also says the bridge does not fit with the kind of projects the stimulus plan is meant to bankroll.

"This project would have moved forward regardless of having the federal money or not, so it doesn't have any additional benefit to the economy," he says.
As he pedaled on his bicycle to work, one Microsoft employee saw the issue in much simpler terms. "It's going to cut about two miles off my ride each day," he said.
source (http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/03/31/bridge.microsoft/)Move over bridge to nowhere, he comes the bridge to Microsoft. :|
I would say I'm surprised, but then again, just recently here in Florida, it was revealed that the Expressway Authority dumped several million of taxpayer money, into building their own personal onramp to the interstate.

[LineDoggie]

Well, we all know Bill Gates is short on cash.......

[StukaJr]

Move over bridge to nowhere, he comes the bridge to Microsoft. :|
I would say I'm surprised, but then again, just recently here in Florida, it was revealed that the Expressway Authority dumped several million of taxpayer money, into building their own personal onramp to the interstate.

You must have failed math - 36 million worth of construction work and material for 11 million dollar tab is a sweet deal and building a bridge certainly is a more productive way to create jobs than digging and filling ditches like during The Great Depression... Especially since the stimulus money has to be spend - why not get large corporate entities match contribution and contribute to a larger project than stimulus money alone can match?

I'm sure there are other reasons - like relieving traffic congestion in and out of that massive business park or so that thousands of tax paying professionals employed by Microsoft could benefit from improved City transportation network?

[seraosha]

It will do the microsoft drones good to actually walk outside.
Those are some pale folks. Sure, they won't get much of a tan in the incessant drizzle, but it's a start.

Only 11 million? Hard to get that upset over it when a trillion is being printed just for sh1ts and giggles.

[Albatross]

job creation.

[Hot Lips]

Oh great, now we're helping to fund BILL GATES (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_100_wealthiest_people)?!?!?!

Microsoft and Bill Gates can fund their own private projects. It creates few short term jobs for primarily long term Microsoft benefits and derails funds that could be put to better use elsewhere.

If the 5,000 people they laid off made $30,000 each that'd be a $150 million they just freed up for their pet projects like this.

[Kit]

I'm going to start massing some Euros just in case the US Dollar goes belly up. Seriously, the Treasury and the Fed have lost it.

[Shurik SST]

Building me a mansion would also be job creation. They can throw in a pyramid as well if they really want to employ a lot of people. woot

[StukaJr]

Oh great, now we're helping to fund BILL GATES (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_100_wealthiest_people)?!?!?!

Microsoft and Bill Gates can fund their own private projects. It creates few short term jobs for primarily long term Microsoft benefits and derails funds that could be put to better use elsewhere.

If the 5,000 people they laid off made $30,000 each that'd be a $150 million they just freed up for their pet projects like this.

Microsoft doesn't own the campus - it's leased from the City. If they choose to leave the area, not like they can take the bridge with them. Microsoft employee traffic will constitute only half of the traffic on that bridge - the company is paying more than half of the development. They are really contributing to the City improvement project, not the other way around.

It's two business parks that are not connected in any meaningful ways (unless one counts getting onto a freeway, making a loop around and coming back) - sounds like a major City Development issue to me...

[Hot Lips]

If Microsoft left, so would 42%+ of the bridge use. So I don't see it as a neccessity for the community, but rather for Microsoft. The community wanting this because it saves them 2 miles on the way to work or to buy software from Microsoft doesn't sound like a high priority issue for taxpayer funds. It's not a vital neccessity for the city.

Let Microsoft suppliment the project if they really want it and care about the commumity.

[StukaJr]

If Microsoft left, so would 42%+ of the bridge use. So I don't see it as a neccessity for the community, but rather for Microsoft. The community wanting this because it saves them 2 miles on the way to work or to buy software from Microsoft doesn't sound like a high priority issue for taxpayer funds. It's not a vital neccessity for the city.

Let Microsoft suppliment the project if they really want it and care about the commumity.

58% of the traffic would still love to get across, I'm sure...

If Microsoft left, it would actually hit the City pretty hard - as is, Microsoft is paying for much of the City services/supporting local businesses in the area as is and with company gone, you would have a giant empty business park split in two by a highway and with no means of getting across. With every other corporation downsizing, the prospect of renting out that big of a business park are rather slim - Microsoft pays generous salaries that trickle back into the economy in the means of income/salestax on top of business tax the corporation pays. It's like renting out a five thousand dollar a month appartment and then telling the tennant that they are to pay for their own repair on a rental - doesn't mean how much money the tennant has, but the business arrangement beneficial to both parties.

This project gets 17 million dollars of private funds to create jobs in the industries that are hit the hardest by the recession - from a company currently downsizing and with its jobs are in the least hurting job markets.

[Flagg]

Oh great, now we're helping to fund BILL GATES (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_100_wealthiest_people)?!?!?!

Microsoft and Bill Gates can fund their own private projects. It creates few short term jobs for primarily long term Microsoft benefits and derails funds that could be put to better use elsewhere.

If the 5,000 people they laid off made $30,000 each that'd be a $150 million they just freed up for their pet projects like this.

Do you know the old adage?

Quick, Cheap, Good

Pick one

Oink! Oink!

[Hot Lips]

No sale, Stuka. I think Microsoft can handle and should.

[ViktorNavorski]

If they want to relieve congestion in Redmond/Bellevue area, that place isn't where you put a new bridge. How much crack are we getting from sugar daddy pimpin' Uncle Sam for the Alaskan Way viaduct replacement tunnel.

[Flagg]

No sale, Stuka. I think Microsoft can handle and should.

Meh......I'm of two minds about it.

Microsoft is in absolutely fantabulous financial shape at the moment...they've got over $20 billion on their balance sheet and practically no debt...they are sitting REAL pretty through this mess.

Stuka is right.......their business generates massive amounts of federal, state, and local taxes....that deservedly gives them a voice.

If I was Steve Ballmer(since Bill Gates is now just a shareholder and handed over the reigns a while ago) I would be looking to leverage that tax base horsepower a bit....who wouldn't?

If you think a bridge is a big deal, you should see what Southern States did for Toyota, Mercedes-Benz, and BMW...or what Chicago did for Boeing to move their headquarters from Seattle a few years back.

This bridge is small potatoes.....more misdirection of the real underlying problem.

It would be great if more people spent less time looking at small pinpricks in the hull of the boat, instead of the massive gusher filling the engine room....it's time to fix the hull rather than just bailing it out...pun intended.

[California Joe]

Look, I don't give a f*ck whether this is actually logical to help the city and all of that other rationale. It's Bill F*cking Gates. That's it. Period. Perception is reality, and there's no way anyone is ever going to think that Bill Gates and Microsoft should ever be using taxpayer money for anything. Maybe he can forego his antigravity room or his holodeck he's building or some sh*t.

[ViktorNavorski]

Microsoft is in absolutely fantabulous financial shape at the moment...they've got over $20 billion on their balance sheet and practically no debt...they are sitting REAL pretty through this mess.Would a $36 million bridge actually put that much of a dent in Microsoft's budget. They could built the thing and negotiate with the State to maintain it and/or give Microsoft a tax break for a certain amount of time since it would benefit both the company the community and either way would create jobs.

[Hot Lips]

The money is there to help dig us out of this mess and the funds should go where they are needed (want does not equal need), not for financially sound businesses to try and leverage it for their own benefit under the guise of "helping" when they fully capable of "helping" without it.

[Flagg]

Would a $36 million bridge actually put that much of a dent in Microsoft's budget. They could built the thing and negotiate with the State to maintain it and/or give Microsoft a tax break for a certain amount of time since it would benefit both the company the community and either way would create jobs.

All valid points.........

My point is that "spending other people's money" is rife with what Allied Signal/GE's Six Sigma discipline call "opportunities for error".

As stated earlier:

Quick Cheap Good

Pick one.......

There's eleventeen zillion dollars worth of monopoly money being spent on this bailout...the tiny fraction NOT going to the FIRE economy is suddenyl getting the attention.

I'm well aware of the old adage:

"Watch your Pennies and the Pounds take care of themselves."

It's a good one.

But this thread is about watching A penny....while a trillion-zillion pounds got sucked down a FIRE economy black hole yesterday, with little followthru on "where'd it go?" today or tomorrow.

While it IS important to uncover and debate this issue......to be blunt...it isn't even a rounding error in the greater scheme of things.

Who'd a thunk $36 million wouldn't be worth the effort?

Jeeeez........even the value of tens of billions isn't "real money" anymore.....we've become so desensitized to it all.....

Anyone want to see my Zimbabwean funny money?

I got it sent to me last year from a mate in South Africa.........$100 billion notes.

They slashed a while bunch of zeroes off them and started all over again....didn't even make 9 months, now they're back to $100 billion notes AGAIN.

[Flagg]

The money is there to help dig us out of this mess and the funds should go where they are needed (want does not equal need), not for financially sound businesses to try and leverage it for their own benefit under the guise of "helping" when they fully capable of "helping" without it.

Them's are "the rules" of the game.

If you don't like them, you have three choices:

1.) suck it up

2.) quit the game

3.) change the rules, or create a new game

Not trying to be cheeky...just being honest...I don't like it either....but it's a bit too much clenching of fist and knashing of teeth aimed at the Telescreen for me to get all emotional about it.

Personally, I choose a bit of #2, but mostly #3

And finally.....the concept that most people are completely failing to understand is that the concept of going further into debt to try and get out of debt is fatally flawed and will lead to far worse consequences.

[Bia]

Flagg... isnt one of the bottom lines.. spending is good... like a food chain.
Even some little league park getting a piece of the pie getting renovations that arent some life altering economic necessity ... bottom line is money is spent on parts, supplys, services...labor...which goes to paying people...that spend that money at a store because someone else needs a job there so they can buy groceries and things for their family so the food maker dood can keep his job canning ravioli cause his kids need shoes etc etc etc

I'd rather see billions pouring into everyday spending as opposed to a few 1%ers at the top stacking their heap higher.

Or no? :P

[StukaJr]

Gates give away significant ammount of his wealth to charity and all of it will go to charity upon their death...

The Federal Stimulus Funds have to be spent and spent in a timeframe set and Microsoft is a publically traded company - those are two realities.

Basic Math - 11 million dollars produces more public work than 36 million dollars. If you disagree with me - explain, if not - moving on...

17.5 million dollar expense is easier to approve by publically traded company's board of directors (forget Bill Gates already) if that delivers a 36 million dollar improvement project... The assumption that company would cheerfully approve a 36 million dollar bill and not get punished by investors is rather a laughable one - Microsoft is a corporation (which is legally a living entity) and it votes with the very thing that keeps it alive... a dollar.

Basically, if 11 million dollars is spent on something else - Microsoft happily holds onto its 17.5 million dollars. Is 11 million dollars enough of a drop in a City's budget to make a wave? I somehow doubt that. Microsoft is not where it is today because it paid full sticker price for everything, anyhow - I'm sure this deal was reached on a part of some tense negotiations and at first glance and without much detail, whomever got a board of directors to approve a 17.5 million dollar donation in a time of a recession is a freaking genius...

As per my landlord comparisson - I have frequently gotten improvements to my rental (above what renter's law requires) by going halfs with the landlord on a fancy faucet or a nicer sink... It's business.

[Nano]

Them's are "the rules" of the game.

If you don't like them, you have three choices:

1.) suck it up

2.) quit the game

3.) change the rules, or create a new game

Not trying to be cheeky...just being honest...I don't like it either....but it's a bit too much clenching of fist and knashing of teeth aimed at the Telescreen for me to get all emotional about it.

Personally, I choose a bit of #2, but mostly #3

And finally.....the concept that most people are completely failing to understand is that the concept of going further into debt to try and get out of debt is fatally flawed and will lead to far worse consequences.

I agree with Flagg and people seem to be nitpicking the small cherry tomatoes. The project is unneeded(a want), but if Microsoft put in some money for their convenience it's better than just having the pigs at the trough.

I have a saying for that goes when you are in a hole stop digging. We are fast heading towards doing the near impossible of digging ourselves out of a hole.

[MaverickCowboy]

Look, I don't give a f*ck whether this is actually logical to help the city and all of that other rationale. It's Bill F*cking Gates. That's it. Period. Perception is reality, and there's no way anyone is ever going to think that Bill Gates and Microsoft should ever be using taxpayer money for anything. Maybe he can forego his antigravity room or his holodeck he's building or some sh*t.

Didn't Bill Gates step down?

[Hot Lips]

Not trying to be cheeky...just being honest...I don't like it either....but it's a bit too much clenching of fist and knashing of teeth aimed at the Telescreen for me to get all emotional about it.

Personally, I choose a bit of #2, but mostly #3

No knashing of teeth, just not sugar coating. I'll go with Door #3.

Unfortunately, most of the time I think we're left with a version of #1, ala Jim Carey in Liar Liar. What are you going to do?


Nothing! Because if I take it to small claims court, it will just drain 8 hours out of my life and you probably won't show up and even if I got the judgment you'd just stiff me anyway; so what I am going to do is piss and moan like an impotent jerk, and then bend over and take it up the tailpipe!

[Walter Sobchak]

Look, I don't give a f*ck whether this is actually logical to help the city and all of that other rationale. It's Bill F*cking Gates. That's it. Period. Perception is reality, and there's no way anyone is ever going to think that Bill Gates and Microsoft should ever be using taxpayer money for anything. Maybe he can forego his antigravity room or his holodeck he's building or some sh*t.

Maybe it will free up some cash to fix all the holes in Vista and that crappy IE product (Mozilla roooooles!). I won't hold my breath.

[Flagg]

Flagg... isnt one of the bottom lines.. spending is good... like a food chain.
Even some little league park getting a piece of the pie getting renovations that arent some life altering economic necessity ... bottom line is money is spent on parts, supplys, services...labor...which goes to paying people...that spend that money at a store because someone else needs a job there so they can buy groceries and things for their family so the food maker dood can keep his job canning ravioli cause his kids need shoes etc etc etc

I'd rather see billions pouring into everyday spending as opposed to a few 1%ers at the top stacking their heap higher.

Or no? :P

I would change "spending is good" to "spending can be good, depending......"

Even IF all the pork was spent on local communities instead of propping up the FIRE economy special interests that have excessive leverage and influence in government....it's STILL not necessarily the answer to the problem.

Spending money when you're broke is like giving a box of chocolates to an obese diabetic.....it might make them feel better for a bit, but could also make their health ultimately far worse.

Right now, the US, UK, and a number of other nations are in a seriously life threatening health situation to a greater or lesser degree.

I would equate it more along the lines of someone in need of a heart transplant.

The heart is the financial system, the bloody is the money flowing through the system to keep the tissue healthy.

The heart(Finance/insurance/banking industry) is clearly dying.

We are seeing very poor circulation in the extremities(poor and middle class) and some gangrenous tissue(inefficient industry...Motor/Building Industries for example) that has to be removed.

The government is our team of doctors and nurses...the doctors are pointing to our gangrenous foot and prescribing a dozen glazed donuts from Krispy Kreme(stimulus spending) when we really need a heart transplant.

We are desperately in need of a second opinion....and while donuts are tasty, they can kill when wrongly prescribed.......as in this case.

[Bia]

It's simply beyond my scope I fear.
TY for the reply.

[Flagg]

No knashing of teeth, just not sugar coating. I'll go with Door #3.

Unfortunately, most of the time I think we're left with a version of #1, ala Jim Carey in Liar Liar. What are you going to do?

Don't be a quitter........

Find and focus on the centres of gravity to this massive mess.

Join or start a group of other like-minded people with the same singular focus to effect specific change.

Lots of people think Ron Paul was/is a bit of a nutty fruit cake....but I'd like to think that for those paying attention he proved what massive bang for the buck can be achieved when you're right....even when somewhat accurately perceived as a fruitcake.

Mid-term elections aren't too far away!

Get in on the ground floor of any focused citizen lobby groups before the fruitcakes take over.

[Nano]

It's simply beyond my scope I fear.
TY for the reply.

Actually it is not it just seems complicated given how the media makes it seem so complicated. To be accurate the basic fundamentals are not all that complicated. What makes things complicated is trying to avoid the surgery as Flagg put it and op for the symptom relief medicine instead of a possible solution to the problem. I'd like to stay and explain it a bit more, but I have a flight besides Flagg is an excellent teacher.

Flagg it would only be neat if the fruitcakes even had a chance. No the bad apples have already taken over and will only continue to spoil the rest.

[DaveDash]

I would change "spending is good" to "spending can be good, depending......"

Even IF all the pork was spent on local communities instead of propping up the FIRE economy special interests that have excessive leverage and influence in government....it's STILL not necessarily the answer to the problem.

Spending money when you're broke is like giving a box of chocolates to an obese diabetic.....it might make them feel better for a bit, but could also make their health ultimately far worse.

Right now, the US, UK, and a number of other nations are in a seriously life threatening health situation to a greater or lesser degree.

I would equate it more along the lines of someone in need of a heart transplant.

The heart is the financial system, the bloody is the money flowing through the system to keep the tissue healthy.

The heart(Finance/insurance/banking industry) is clearly dying.

We are seeing very poor circulation in the extremities(poor and middle class) and some gangrenous tissue(inefficient industry...Motor/Building Industries for example) that has to be removed.

The government is our team of doctors and nurses...the doctors are pointing to our gangrenous foot and prescribing a dozen glazed donuts from Krispy Kreme(stimulus spending) when we really need a heart transplant.

We are desperately in need of a second opinion....and while donuts are tasty, they can kill when wrongly prescribed.......as in this case.

Its posts like this that just add to the problem.

I've been reading your posts regarding the issue for a few months now, and you are way over-exaggerating the extent of the problem, which in turn contributes more to the problem that actually helps.

The situation we are in is hardly life threatening for the nations you list. It is bad, yes, compared to how things were, but it'll probably be over towards the end of the year/early next year and in a couple most people will have forgotten about it.

It is no where near the level of the great depression which was far more dire than the situation now. People are out of work, they are not out of food, there is no threat of world war, etc etc.

This fear mongering by the media, certian government officials, and other people like yourself leads people who don't know better to do silly things and has contributed massively to the downturn in the stockmarkets, and creating steep slopes out of gradual slides.

I work for a multi national multi billion dollar U.S. owned publically listed company which is one of the largest office supplies company in the world, and while things have definitely gotten quieter our board is not panicing or acting out of fear and it is mostly business as usual. Some headcount freezes are starting to lift, people are being hired, people are finding jobs(albiet at a lower rate, boo hoo), house prices are stablising, and the wheels are starting to turn again. As the panic and fear mongering starts to slow down, business will pick up.

I know you like to quote your so called sources of "super intelligent" people or what have you, but we will see In time where the panic and fear mongering has done more harm than good. At the moment its a pessesimistic economists wet dream.

Onto the merits of the stimulus package however, that is a different story. However I would argue building a bridge is a heck of a lot better at reviving the economy than ATV trails and anti-smoking campaigns. I do agree with you that people are focused entirely on the wrong area, especially in regards to this article.

On Topic:
I am also 100% with StukaJr on this.

And also I'd like to note while Microsoft is doing well, I would not say they are sitting pretty. There are many other tech biz companies that are doing just as good if not better at the moment, and have grown larger than Microsoft that no one gives a fig about.
I wonder how many people would complain if this money was going towards building a bridge that was a Google/Apple initiative? Probably a lot less.

[budgie]

Job creation and increased efficiency (we hope) at Microsoft. By extension therefore more profits, equalling revenue in the form of corporate taxes into the treasury.

In fact it smells a little of pork to me too. But all govt. spending in the private sector is pork because it always benefits some corporation or other. When people here call for 100 more F22s the screams of "Pork!" fall oddly silent, after all. Here's the rub - if it benefits the economy as well as vested interests, I guess there's not too much fat on the bacon.

[toad]

Sometimes you wonder. The gov't can spend millions, that add up to billions on skate parks (my city), two hotels no one can figure out a need for... and the myriad of gardens, parks, studies for weevels, bike racks etc... and it's called stimulus.

But they now take over the private GM company with their bailout, and order GM and Dodge out of NASCAR...because it spends taxpayer money..... ?

Much as I am NOT a Nascar fan, the support of companies to this 'sport' I would say generates jobs. No one has to flame me...but from what I have seen, with races is that there are a lot of spin-off side business because of its popularity (albeit waning in recent years).

I know that the cars that race today, are not the old 'stock' cars of yore, but even so pulling the name (Ford would be pulled too if they take any money) would be an impact.

Private entities already sponsor cars....I guess the teams will rely soley on private support now. In light of all the pork around, this seems funny.

Gov't spend pork = good. Stimulates
gov't takes over private company, now is a gov't company = cut spending. To be viable and not overspend.


/gov't trillions spent?


I thought it was an April fools joke, but I dunno.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/motorsports/obama_orders_chevrolet_and_dodge_out_of_nascar_car_news

[Adux]

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/200 ... 160800.htm (http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2009/03/26/stories/2009032650160800.htm)
Turner Review: Learning lessons from India



The Review has blamed three things for the current crisis. First, after the fashion of the day, is the euphemism for China’s huge reserves and the US’ habit of living off borrowed funds, namely, macro-economic imbalances.

This term will not make China happy because it seems its delegates had threatened to walk out of the first G-20 meeting last year if the communique contained the term. So it was left out.

Clearly, with their foolish investment policy of putting all their eggs in one basket now exposed, Lord Turner at least has not felt intimidated by China.

The second reason he has identified is inadequate bank capital and the need for better liquidity regulation — of the sort Dr Reddy had advocated and implemented in India. If Indian banks are not in trouble, a large part of the credit must go to him. It was he who implemented what the Turner Review is now calling for, namely, “Counter-cyclical capital buffers, building up in good economic times so that they can be drawn on in downturns, and reflected in published account estimates of future potential losses” and “a central role for much tighter regulation of liquidity.”

But it is the third reason adduced by Lord Turner that is of real importance. He blames “financial innovation of little social value” for the crisis. In other words, what he is saying is that if you let them do as they please — the core of principles-based regulation — they will land you in trouble.

[Jobu]

Oh great, now we're helping to fund BILL GATES (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_100_wealthiest_people)?!?!?!

Sorry but as an Obama supporter you can't complain. You knew his spending would make Bush look like a pennypincher.

This is what you voted for.

[Adux]

I have begun to ponder over the strategic side of this crisis, is this covert economic world war played by the US on China?

[StukaJr]

It started with male Clinton and it's continuing with female Clinton...

You might be on to something

[Bia]

The situation we are in is hardly life threatening for the nations you list. It is bad, yes, compared to how things were...

It is no where near the level of the great depression which was far more dire than the situation now...
I feel this too... the more educated and wiser people (compared to me that is) I interact with in daily life agree there's hype in the situation.

I went out to dinner last night... tuesday night...steakhouse.... standing room only... 30 min wait. People spending like crazy... same at grocery store... not a ghost town... too many people and not enough asile space...
The sky doesnt seem to be falling... until I turn on the news/radio

[Flagg]

Its posts like this that just add to the problem.

Everything I have posted I firmly believe in. I would truly love nothing more than to be absolutely 100% wrong. If in 1-2 years time you happen to be correct, I will happily state that I was a complete fcukwit.

I just don't see it happening, and I've got good data to substantiate it.

I've been reading your posts regarding the issue for a few months now, and you are way over-exaggerating the extent of the problem, which in turn contributes more to the problem that actually helps.

What is this? The frickin' Spanish Inquisition?

As a "non-believer" do I get burned at the stake or stoned to death?

I refuse to pretend that thinking happy thoughts, sunshine, and rainbows will fix this.

I much prefer to attack problems head on, rather than to effectively ignore them, or accept at face value the further continuation of corrupt and malignant financial doctrine.

We are far beyond a situation where consumer sentiment is going to solve our problems.



The situation we are in is hardly life threatening for the nations you list. It is bad, yes, compared to how things were, but it'll probably be over towards the end of the year/early next year and in a couple most people will have forgotten about it.

I disagree.

Again, I have current data and historical precedence that supports my opinions, as I'm sure you would surely have data that supports your opinions....feel free to share.

Again, I sincerely hope that you are correct that we will be through this within a year...but I firmly believe the likelihood of your happy ending occurring is approaching absolute zero.




It is no where near the level of the great depression which was far more dire than the situation now. People are out of work, they are not out of food, there is no threat of world war, etc etc.

I believe we are just getting started in this process.

A lot of people with a basic understanding of the Great Depression suffer from time compression errors in their outlook. The Great Depression didn't start the day after Black Friday, and end by the following weekend like a cr@ppy TV miniseries. It took years.

I believe we are only a short way into this mess, with the majority of the problems still lying in front of us.

Please do not take me out of context.

I have never stated the 1st world would all starve to death or that this process would be in any way identical to the Great Depression.

But on the topic of starving I do expect to see those on the bottom rung of the global ladder to basically get booted off...which will result in lots of suffering there.....my opinion.



This fear mongering by the media, certian government officials, and other people like yourself leads people who don't know better to do silly things and has contributed massively to the downturn in the stockmarkets, and creating steep slopes out of gradual slides.

Absolute rubbish!

Blaming myself or others for sharing opinions that happen to include potential for further significant financial/economic downside is complete ratsh!t.

Instead of shooting the messanger, consider taking a moment to find the truly culpable.




I work for a multi national multi billion dollar U.S. owned publically listed company which is one of the largest office supplies company in the world, and while things have definitely gotten quieter our board is not panicing or acting out of fear and it is mostly business as usual.

Good for you.

Ultimately, your single example here is one single anecdotal piece of information.

Again I've got my data....you have yours...our opinions CLEARLY differ...you have done absolutely nothing to convince me otherwise.



Some headcount freezes are starting to lift, people are being hired, people are finding jobs(albiet at a lower rate, boo hoo), house prices are stablising, and the wheels are starting to turn again. As the panic and fear mongering starts to slow down, business will pick up.

Again.....I have lots of data that says otherwise....this bit here reads like a "talk down to the sheep" press release......as if by simply believing it...and stoning those who don't, will somehow fix this.

I prefer to treat people like adults with the free will to make their own carefully thought out choices.

My personal choices have paralleled my posting here...so I'm eating my own cooking, and if you've been reading my posts you will see I have repeatedly posted that my opinions are mine, everyone needs to perform their own due dilgence.

Of course business will pick up.......we obviously differ significantly on the WHEN.

I know you like to quote your so called sources of "super intelligent" people or what have you, but we will see In time where the panic and fear mongering has done more harm than good. At the moment its a pessesimistic economists wet dream.

What's your objective here? It would appear to be ridicule...please clarify.

If that's the case then we can insult each other all day long.

If we're going to pretend we are adults and treat each other as such, then please start acting like it.

I will continue to rely on my formal and practical education/experience, the limited access I do have to a couple very well respected folks, and at times, to some very valuable advise that reinforces my viewpoints to a certain extent.

All three are pretty well aligned, tested, and have performed exceptionally well for me in recent years.

If you'd like to continue to rubbish my opinons, please do........I'm in a win/win.

If you're right, fantastic...We're all fixed and I look like an idiot...WE win.

If you're wrong, folks take a further financial beating and other bad things happen...which sucks....and I would then unfortunately be right...but not in much of a mood to celebrate or rub your face in it.


Onto the merits of the stimulus package however, that is a different story. However I would argue building a bridge is a heck of a lot better at reviving the economy than ATV trails and anti-smoking campaigns. I do agree with you that people are focused entirely on the wrong area, especially in regards to this article.

Quite frankly I'm suprised we agree on anything......

On Topic:
I am also 100% with StukaJr on this.

And also I'd like to note while Microsoft is doing well, I would not say they are sitting pretty. There are many other tech biz companies that are doing just as good if not better at the moment, and have grown larger than Microsoft that no one gives a fig about.
I wonder how many people would complain if this money was going towards building a bridge that was a Google/Apple initiative? Probably a lot less.

I think it's safe to say that the biggest global franchise with the lowest cost of production combined with the biggest cash stockpile and lowest debt in a time of severe disinflation is just about the best seat in the house to weather this storm.

But once again....opinions are like @ssholes....we all have them.

[deagle]

can't they use the money they get from their monopoly ??

[Kilgor]

http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/01/2222227&art_pos=1

"Microsoft requested on Tuesday some $20 billion in bailout funds from the federal government, claiming that as the company controls an overwhelming share of the OS market, it is too big to fail. Low adoption rates for Vista, the ensuing ad campaign trying to convince people that they really do like Vista, and the increased need for development resources to rush Windows 7 to market to make people forget about Vista have necessitated the bailout, the company said. "We want to make it absolutely clear that this is not a crisis of mismanagement," said Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer in a prepared statement. "This is simply a crisis of dollars — a crisis of not having enough dollars coming our way.""

[Zoomie]

http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/01/2222227&art_pos=1

"Microsoft requested on Tuesday some $20 billion in bailout funds from the federal government, claiming that as the company controls an overwhelming share of the OS market, it is too big to fail. Low adoption rates for Vista, the ensuing ad campaign trying to convince people that they really do like Vista, and the increased need for development resources to rush Windows 7 to market to make people forget about Vista have necessitated the bailout, the company said. "We want to make it absolutely clear that this is not a crisis of mismanagement," said Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer in a prepared statement. "This is simply a crisis of dollars — a crisis of not having enough dollars coming our way.""
Kilgor, did you even bother to check the source? :cantbeli: You fail.

[Kilgor]

Kilgor, did you even bother to check the source? :cantbeli: You fail.

Yes, I did.

Aware of the date btw.

[Zoomie]

Yes, I did.

Aware of the date btw.
Then why did you bother posting fake crap? :roll:

[philbob]

to get the response you gave me thinks

[Adux]

China's U.S. Debt Quandary
Gady Epstein 03.19.09, 6:00 PM ET



U.S. investors may have cheered (http://www.forbes.com/2009/03/18/fed-bonds-citigroup-markets-transcript-fed.html) the Federal Reserve's decision this week to pump more than 1 trillion new dollars into the economy, but at least one faction in China was on the verge of tears.
"I want to cry, really want to cry," wrote one Beijinger on Thursday, posting on one of China's most popular portals, Sina.com. The problem was that by issuing more currency, the Fed was potentially weakening the U.S. dollar, making China's dollar-based investments worth less. "Those elites insist on buying American bonds."
One of "those elites" under fire is Premier Wen Jiabao. When he expresses public angst (http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/03/13/ap6165190.html?loomia_ow=t0:a41:g29:r5:c0.001491:b23113724&partner=loomia) about the safety of China's holdings of U.S. debt, he is speaking partly to domestic critics who believe Chinese leaders have unwisely tied their country's fate to the U.S. economy. Many of the critics may be crackpots and conspiracy theorists, but they have a point.
They know that their government is now America's largest creditor, with more than half of its $2 trillion in foreign exchange reserves invested in Treasury securities and other U.S. government bonds. Some of these critics suspect that the Federal Reserve essentially prints more money not just to stimulate the economy, but also to devalue China's U.S. dollar portfolio, undermining a rival power.
It may be a paranoid theory, but it is a popular one. One of China's bestselling books in the past 18 months is Currency Wars, a conspiratorial screed that suggests that Western financial interests, including the Federal Reserve, seek to destroy the Chinese economy. The book has sold more than 1 million copies officially, and probably several million more pirated copies, and remains a bestseller now as economic conditions deteriorate.
Any leaders who choose to ignore this populist thinking risk being branded as sellouts. Last fall, as the financial crisis was unfolding, an incendiary letter circulated on the Internet claiming that a clique of Chinese elites, led by investment banker and former Premier Zhu Rongji's son Levin Zhu, formed a "foreign financial interest cartel" that has betrayed the interests of the Chinese people to enrich themselves and their cronies.
The letter named as co-conspirators the men running China's $200 billion sovereign wealth fund, whose disastrous investments in the Blackstone Group and Morgan Stanley have lost China billions. People's Bank of China Governor Zhou Xiaochuan, China's Ben Bernanke, was singled out for investing too much in Treasurys as the dollar was depreciating--more reasoning straight out of Currency Wars.
The believers are not just fire-breathing ideologues. "Many technocrats believe in this argument that the U.S. is trying to screw over China by cheapening the dollar," says Victor Shih, a political economist and China specialist at Northwestern University. Shih learned of the influential reach of "Currency Wars" when he visited last summer with bureaucrats from the People's Bank of China.
"Many PBOC officials bought into the arguments of this book and I think they've been writing a lot of reports to Wen Jiabao saying we're holding a lot of dollars and we're exposed to this risk," Shih says. "And essentially that's true."
There's the rub. Almost by accident, the conspiracy theories cut straight to what many economists consider a fundamental weakness in China's monetary policy, and the leadership knows it. China has accumulated huge U.S. dollar reserves to keep the value of its own currency down, economists say, increasing its dependency on exports and decreasing its ability to invest more domestically.
"You're making your economy more dependent on the rest of the world," says Brad W. Setser, an economist at the Council on Foreign Relations who has closely monitored China's sovereign investments. "You're relying on demand from the rest of the world to maintain domestic employment rather than, say, running a fiscal deficit."
Now China is locked into a situation where it needs the U.S. economy to rebound, but as the U.S. spends trillions of dollars to make that happen, it devalues (http://www.forbes.com/2009/03/18/briefing-asia-midday-markets-equity-coke.html) the one currency China is most heavily invested in and pegged against. That forces China to continue buying U.S. dollars both to keep the value of its currency down and to protect its portfolio, so China ends up helping finance the U.S. economic recovery plan.
According to Setser, there is "no good historical analogy" for this situation. Never before has the U.S. been so heavily financed by one country. That relationship has already been the subject of much hand-wringing in the U.S., but it may be an even more volatile political problem for China.
It's the old debtor's aphorism, writ on a sovereign scale: If you owe China $1 billion, it's your problem. If you owe China $1 trillion, it's China's problem.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/03/19/china-debt-fed-business-beijing-dispatch_print.html

US has been watching Chinese buy up dollars and US debt to keep the value of their currency from going up, to think the creators of the current economic system didnt have some tricks or more under their sleeve will be bit a of naive assumption!

[Jiggy]

well i think thats why people call it an economical war.

[Adux]

You know what can help CCP and China, WAR!
Nothing like that to get their geopolitical, quell the internal tensions, spending of money usefully and not to mention I think swift non-nuclear option against India stands?
No wonder, That Indian Army planners gave out a Chinese threat before 2017, If one compares their wierd economic woes, it would make sense for them.

[Kilgor]

to get the response you gave me thinks

:)

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