ADF and life after the F88 Styr

[jango]

I was just wondering that now that the F88 Styr has been in service with the ADF for 20 years how long until it is replaced.

It is a good system so would it be a case of upgrading instead of replacing it. What do you think the ADF has in store for the Styr in the future ?

[ayanami_tard]

just don't(i mean DON'T) replace them with M4A1 lol

G36 is nice btw

[StuRat]

There is no plan to replace them, and the new A3's are just coming into use with the Steyr-s being filtered down through the units.

[REMOV]

There is no plan to replace them...and no need ;)

[digrar]

I was just wondering that now that the F88 Styr has been in service with the ADF for 20 years how long until it is replaced.

It is a good system so would it be a case of upgrading instead of replacing it. What do you think the ADF has in store for the Styr in the future ?


It's being upgraded now.

hi res http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/4241/20081028adf820802238105.jpg

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4241/20081028adf820802238105.jpg

[notoo7]

It's being upgraded now.

hi res http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/4241/20081028adf820802238105.jpg

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4241/20081028adf820802238105.jpg


Not sure I would be willing to hold my rifle like that after fire drills:bash:

[Hippo]

just don't(i mean DON'T) replace them with M4A1 lol

G36 is nice btw

do you have any experience with any of those rifles?

do you have any qualifications to make that statement?

[uTu]

those light green ones are pretty

[ShotOver]

Not sure I would be willing to hold my rifle like that after fire drills:bash:

I think that Warrant Officer knows what he is doing mate.

Rest.

[Troubadour]

I dont see rank anywhere?

[ShotOver]

Yeah, Australian Army has rank slides mid chest, if you view the Hires photo and and look, you can see the end of a box, there is only one rank in the Australian Army that has a box around it.

Anything else?

[Soldat_Américain]

I love how no Army in the world uses the same blank adapters...

[TyroneBiggums]

We are waiting for lasers and cannons that can harness the power of the sun.

[Slouch]

I saw some old photos of the prototype A3 modification with the Metal Storm 40mm GLA mounted on top- the whole thing looked ghastly. It was huge. Bigger than a goddamn 84.

Photos are in this-
http://www.adi-limited.com/pdfs/5-05-000-000-000_4.pdf

[ShotOver]

Yeah that got cut away pretty quickly. All I want is Para Minimi to get issued out to everyone, mech should have it.

[StuRat]

I dont see rank anywhere?

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2008/Oct/20081031/20081028adf8208022_381.jpg

Thats the high res

[Opening Batsman]

Not sure I would be willing to hold my rifle like that after fire drills:bash:

Well obviously they haven't just fired it, have they? If they did, I'm sure being intelligent adults they would be able to move their fingers to an alternate position.

[goose36]

PARA's will never come mainstream, have fought it for years. i like what STYER in Austria have done with new one.

[ShotOver]

PARA's will never come mainstream, have fought it for years. i like what STYER in Austria have done with new one.

Yeah, I'm just a disgruntled gunner. What have they done with the new one?

[dobrodan]

PARA's will never come mainstream, have fought it for years. i like what STYER in Austria have done with new one.

Who´s STYER?

[goose36]

styer, the makers of the rifle.

[StuRat]

You know he means Steyr

[goose36]

oops, haven't had my coffee yet.

[Blutarsky]

I have not had it in my hands but from what I've heard Austria's special force "Jagdkommando" refused to adopt the AUG A3 due to balance reasons. The A2 Commando was built with their input and had very positive feedback. Correct me please if anyone has more secific infos on this. Generally I love the AUG. I have little experience with Colt ARs and AKs but for me the AUG is the best package. I totally agree that there should be no need in replacing them.

[snowmaster]

If all the in-service F88’s had the F88C barrel, and a good, commercial off the shelf rail upgrade, they would be good for about 95 % of the tasks they were introduced to perform. Throughout the majority of the ADF,

I think the grunts should keep the F88C (modified) and have another Semi auto 7.62 or similar rifle in there war box.

[kongman]

I was just wondering that now that the F88 Styr has been in service with the ADF for 20 years how long until it is replaced.

It is a good system so would it be a case of upgrading instead of replacing it. What do you think the ADF has in store for the Styr in the future ?







if it ain't broke don't fix it................the real question is when are they going to upgrade there pistols even an upgraded browning HP would be an improvement

[goose36]

If all the in-service F88’s had the F88C barrel, and a good, commercial off the shelf rail upgrade, they would be good for about 95 % of the tasks they were introduced to perform. Throughout the majority of the ADF,

I think the grunts should keep the F88C (modified) and have another Semi auto 7.62 or similar rifle in there war box.

i agree, a better rail sytem would imrove it dramaticlly, i'm happy with the barrel[20inch], the bullpup hides it nicely, i would love to see a pistol upgrade too, the HP is great but is a bit old, but hey, as you said, if its not broke, dont fix it!

[gafkiwi]

We are doing a similar upgrade as you guys, But Its across the board taking in most the small arms in the NZDF, (Steyr upgrade,Minimi replacement, Marksmans rifle and sniper rifle) The work on the Steyr program looks good, rail system and a task specific optics accessory package. A couple of tweeks to the rifle insides as well. After carrying the 407mm barrel length on deployment I've become a fan of it, just the right length for me.

[digrar]

Never carried a C and never really felt like I needed to, even when in and out of cars, although I was only in and out of rovers with no glass or roof.

[XIE]

Got my hands on the new F88. Seems good. No real change to operation. However one criticism from thelads who owned them..."it is good but now I have to sign weapon, scope, nad and torch to use it".

[snowmaster]

We had the F88 SAC, not sure what is stands for, but the barrel was 100mm shorter than the F88, it was good when you dropped to one knee, the flash suppressor would not hit the dirt, I found that the shorter barrel a lot more user friendly, with no noticeable loss in accuracy, (fig 11 at 500m with light wind, using ELCAN X 3)

[goose36]

SAC...never heard of it. i do like the C but have no dramas with the longer barrel. do you mean 3.4 for the elcan?

[snowmaster]

thanks, yes 3.4

i am not sure why it was called SAC, but it had the sort C barrel and the rail on top,

[Opening Batsman]

Well the SA1 (Special Australian, apparently) designation is for the gat with a rail on top instead of the ones that all the pogue units still have with fixed sights. So you can see where SAC comes from.

[goose36]

aahhh.....

[snowmaster]

Thanks.

I got it new in 1999 and had it for 2 years, it took about 500 rds to run in and a heap of graphite powder in the trigger mechanism, it was a good rifle, and it was a sad day when I had to hand it in.

[Caduceus]

do you have any experience with any of those rifles?

do you have any qualifications to make that statement?

There are many rifles better than the M4 carbin.

First the old Stoner M63 system. With it's modular parts you could have anything from a basic rifle to an medium machine gun. The Steyr AUG also follows this form of thinking and is a better rifle than the M4.

There is also the Heckler & Koch 416 with has a gas piston system and only on failure in an 15,000 round test.

Next you have the FN F2000 which IMHO is the best rifle out there made. It's just like the old OICW but this one works. You can modullary fit a gernade launch, lazer range finder, and fire control system.

Theres the FN SCAR in 5.56 (Mk 16) and 7.64 (Mk 17) calibers/configurations. Also preforms much better in sand that the M4.

Finally, theres the 6.5 Grendel with AR-15 platforms to shoot the round. This would have much superior range than the M-16/M-4.

So there you have six weapons systems that are better than the M-4 Carbine.:bash:

[Ballistic]

I was just wondering that now that the F88 Styr has been in service with the ADF for 20 years how long until it is replaced.

It is a good system so would it be a case of upgrading instead of replacing it. What do you think the ADF has in store for the Styr in the future ?

Read in a recent Army Newspaper article something about the Steyr serving well up to 2020 (obviously in an upgraded fashion).

I also posted these pics a ways back which had some nice looking rail system upgrade attached. Looked good, not sure if or when these upgrades will ever take place. The pics are from an Infantry Magazine article back in 07 I think.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17876&d=1164178085%3C/a%3E

(http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17876&d=1164178085)http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17877&d=1164178105 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17877&d=1164178105)

[goose36]

saw this awhile ago, seems like they wont give up here toys yet, and were not getting that pathetic rail system.

[Opening Batsman]

Ah those god awful knee and elbow pads. Worse than useless, I says.

[StuRat]

There are many rifles better than the M4 carbin.

First the old Stoner M63 system. With it's modular parts you could have anything from a basic rifle to an medium machine gun. The Steyr AUG also follows this form of thinking and is a better rifle than the M4.

There is also the Heckler & Koch 416 with has a gas piston system and only on failure in an 15,000 round test.

Next you have the FN F2000 which IMHO is the best rifle out there made. It's just like the old OICW but this one works. You can modullary fit a gernade launch, lazer range finder, and fire control system.

Theres the FN SCAR in 5.56 (Mk 16) and 7.64 (Mk 17) calibers/configurations. Also preforms much better in sand that the M4.

Finally, theres the 6.5 Grendel with AR-15 platforms to shoot the round. This would have much superior range than the M-16/M-4.

So there you have six weapons systems that are better than the M-14.:bash:

have you even shot one of those weapons? Leave this thread about the F88, not another "Which gun is better" thread.

[snowmaster]

The F88 family needs another sling attachment point; the one on the buttock that retains the trigger mech is useless by itself, there needs to be another attachment point closer to the pistol grip, to balance it out when slung,

The Australian issued sling is rubbish,

[Opening Batsman]

The F88 family needs another sling attachment point; the one on the buttock that retains the trigger mech is useless by itself, there needs to be another attachment point closer to the pistol grip, to balance it out when slung,

The Australian issued sling is rubbish,

Have you tried looping the sling around the small of the butt instead of using the front sling swivel?

[Slouch]

Have you tried looping the sling around the small of the butt instead of using the front sling swivel?

+1. Works a charm.

Also, I remember that article about the future LAND 125 systems. Mostly because the WO2 has his rank slide on upside down.

1 TWS per section by 2007? HA!

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

With all these budget cuts we will be going back to this

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/Minardiau/432e696c.jpg

[snowmaster]

Have you tried looping the sling around the small of the butt instead of using the front sling swivel?

like the SORD F88 Sling?

[TyroneBiggums]

Yeh SORD have done that with there's like snowmaster said; here's the pics from there website;

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y122/sabretron/1sm.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y122/sabretron/2sm.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y122/sabretron/3-3.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y122/sabretron/an5.jpg

[Opening Batsman]

Have you tried looping the sling around the small of the butt instead of using the front sling swivel?

like the SORD F88 Sling?

Yeah similar concept to that, you'll figure it out when you do it.

[k613]

With all these budget cuts we will be going back to this

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/Minardiau/432e696c.jpg
You say that like a it's a bad thing! Worked well through two world wars..!

[Manic Moran]

The F88 family needs another sling attachment point; the one on the buttock that retains the trigger mech is useless by itself, there needs to be another attachment point closer to the pistol grip, to balance it out when slung,


Not entirely sure I see the concern. It's becoming quite de-rigeur to sling a rifle by way of a carabiner attached to the webbing so that it hangs by the stock at an easy, short length to swing up to firing position. Useless for parade, but quite handy in the field.

NTM

[digrar]

Back in the day we used a fastex clip for the same effect.

[gusto]

Until we can get the rights to building another weapon in Australia,I doubt we'll be getting rid of the F88.If I remember correctly Colt wouldn't give us the rights to building the M16A2 here.I think its a corner stone of our defence policy that our issue rifle be built in Australia.Yes I know the M16A1 wasn't.I've used the M16A2 whilst on exchange with the yanks and I loved it.I think the USMC refused the M4 for the M16A5.
I'm also deeply in love with the F88 and see no problem with it.

As for Para F89 yes it should be issued through out the army.At least F89 with Para butt.What with being veh mounted now the vogue and the good old Mag 58 reappearing.

I have a pic of myself back in 1994 whilst in 3RAR with a Para minimi the original version.We tested jumped it and I got a old M16 BFA for it.It was then shelved until SF brought it back.3 had to wait 10 years to get it.
The poms use it why can't the rest of our army.

[0497]

Until we can get the rights to building another weapon in Australia,I doubt we'll be getting rid of the F88.If I remember correctly Colt wouldn't give us the rights to building the M16A2 here.I think its a corner stone of our defence policy that our issue rifle be built in Australia.Yes I know the M16A1 wasn't.I've used the M16A2 whilst on exchange with the yanks and I loved it.I think the USMC refused the M4 for the M16A5.
I'm also deeply in love with the F88 and see no problem with it.

As for Para F89 yes it should be issued through out the army.At least F89 with Para butt.What with being veh mounted now the vogue and the good old Mag 58 reappearing.

I have a pic of myself back in 1994 whilst in 3RAR with a Para minimi the original version.We tested jumped it and I got a old M16 BFA for it.It was then shelved until SF brought it back.3 had to wait 10 years to get it.
The poms use it why can't the rest of our army.

Hasn't the patent on the AR-15 (aka m16) rifle expired?

7.62mm Minimi variant?

[digrar]

I doubt we'd be looking at a 1960's weapon next time around.

[hellfighter78]

Any idea on the price of that SORD sling for the Styer. Anybody else recommend a good sling for the Styer?

[digrar]

http://www.sordaustralia.com/SORD/index.php?t=1&c=07&sc=43

$30

[hellfighter78]

http://www.sordaustralia.com/SORD/index.php?t=1&c=07&sc=43

$30

Nice, thanks

[Soldat_Américain]

Yes I know the M16A1 wasn't.I've used the M16A2 whilst on exchange with the yanks and I loved it.I think the USMC refused the M4 for the M16A5.
I'm also deeply in love with the F88 and see no problem with it.


Wait...there's an A5?

USMC uses the M16A4.

[snowmaster]

I am a bit old school, but if DMO, ADF, or ADI could reduce the length of the old SLR 7.62 and give them a bit of rail, I would be up for one, not to replace the F88, just as another string in the BOW, something like the DSA rifles, it could almost be a SCAR POOR, and then we could sell the technology to NZ,

[digrar]

At the end of the day you'd have something not as good as the SR25. What would be the point other than the cool factor?

[shuredgefan]

Do you guys ever practice weak-side shooting?

My old platoon sgt was a bit of a fanatic about being ambidextrous with a rifle and after a while I found real utility in the skill, especially in and around buildings.

I don't know the ejection pattern of AUG-type rifles, but couldn't you rotate the rifle 90-degrees out and shoot from the left shoulder gangsta style if you had to shoot around a right-hand corner?

[digrar]

Brass would eject straight into your face.

[Slouch]

Brass would eject straight into your face.

But damn you would be a man if you did a whole live-fire clearance using only your weak-hand side.

[digrar]

A pock faced man.

[gusto]

Wait...there's an A5?

USMC uses the M16A4.

Correction M16A4..To much Wild Turkey on my part

[0497]

I am a bit old school, but if DMO, ADF, or ADI could reduce the length of the old SLR 7.62 and give them a bit of rail, I would be up for one, not to replace the F88, just as another string in the BOW, something like the DSA rifles, it could almost be a SCAR POOR, and then we could sell the technology to NZ,

kiwi w/ SLR in afghanistan
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3714420&postcount=30

I think what's going to happen is the basic operating components of the F88 will hang around for some time but, the 'chassis' will change. The F88 might end up looking like the Tavor.

[kongman]

kiwi w/ SLR in afghanistan
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3714420&postcount=30

I think what's going to happen is the basic operating components of the F88 will hang around for some time but, the 'chassis' will change. The F88 might end up looking like the Tavor.



wish they would bring back the SLR, maybe with an upgrade (better furniture and rails )...i wonder if the army has of loaded them by now , or are they doing the usual stick them in storage for the next 50 years

[SilentType]

You can weakside transition with the AUG/F88 rifle, you have to place the stock though behind you (there is a video on youtube of the ADF that shows them in MOUT Training and you can watch a soldier do just that) or position the rifle on it's side at an extreme cant to send the ejection away from your face. Not the best for accuracy or control. With modern laser sights and of course IR lasers though you can do it if you have to and get on target. The weak side transition IMHO only become useful if you're outside in an urban area and are static in that you're going to take position behind a certain building where you're peering around the corner on your weakside. While rounding a building you can of course pie the corner around it or if you're going to be static you could simply move to a better position most the time. I would never weakside transition while I was indoors in a Close Quarters situation, because I want to retain strong side control of my rifle and avoid complications with my sling and gear when mili-seconds count and there is no room for error. I know certain people think that weakside is good for vehicle shooting, but if you're not strapped in with a seat belt it's pretty easy to use the F88 in a vehicle. That's me though and reasonable minds can differ.

The tradeoff to the inability to do shouldered weakside transitions with the AUG/F88 is that you have a rifle that's 20% shorter on average than a standard configuration rifle with the equal barrel length. Short is nice and unless you shortern the barrel down on a standard configuration rifle or have a folding stock it's difficult to even come close to the overall length and by doing such things you're trading off other things like the ability to shoulder or velocity at intermediate distances.

The short comings of the F88/AUG in my opinion are that the gas system is very unfriendly to suppression. Standard suppressors will reduce the signature of an AR or other rifles much better than they can the F88/AUG. The other issue I see that needs improvement is that there is right now a lack of rail space for the F88. The end user is very limited to what accessories he or she can mount and where they can be mounted.

The American civilian made Steyr AUG A3 has added a small rail to the receiver, but I don't understand why it's so close to the receiver's vents where heat will vent from the barrel and likely raise the operating temp of the light or laser you mount. The Microtech Small Arms Research (MSAR) STG-556 has a better mounting position, but you're still limited mounting accessories on the right side. The top rails of the Steyr AUG A3 are nice though, because they allow for BUIS and are long enough and short enough to mount various optics with mounts commonly made for AR flat tops. The prototype A3 had the quad rail, but the quad rail is currently not available. The Quad-Rail gives you more mounting options, but then takes away one of the strong points of the AUG, which was the quick change barrel since it eliminates the VFG and now could not be changed out without waiting for the barrel to cool. Not a huge deal though in my opinion. Folks say it adds to the weight, but if the rail was made out of a light weight carbon fiber I don't think the weight addition would be too great.

An interesting solution to the F88's issues with suppression would be the the MSAR suppressor barrel assembly that is in development right now. It is being designed to address the gas timing issue and and provide for a quick change suppressed barrel assembly that does not increase the overall length of the rifle, which is a bullpups strongest feature.

I think a lot is being done right now with bullpups. There is downward ejection right now there are things being looked at by companies like Magpul to allow for the user to switch ejection from left to right through some type of paddle device. The triggers are at long last becoming a hell of a lot better. The Kel-Tec RFB is reported to have one of the nicest triggers out there comparing well against even National Match AR triggers. So the next generations of bullpups are going to start seeing some of the oldest issues put to rest.

I have a modified hammer pack with the STG-556 and it reduces the over travel of the trigger allowing for a very short take up and reset. I have to tell you that improves the trigger BIG TIME. It's not really the weight of pull of at all, but the length of pull on the trigger and reset that needed improvement. Time will tell how dependable this modified trigger will be, but if it holds up I honestly think it is something that should be looked at as the new standard at least for SEMI-AUTO, but I don't think it could be done with the pull through full auto F88.

I'm not sure how well funded ADI is and what kind of talent they have, but I'm sure they're purchasing and examining these new bullpups and new ideas themselves. Just takes a creative person to put on their thinking cap, stand on the shoulders of those before him, and raise the bar a little higher. That is in essence the way firearms have been developed from the start.

[SilentType]

Oh yeah, and if you are issued an F2000, Steyr AUG, F88, or Tavor you've got to check out Urban ERT Slings for single point slings...they are VERY nice. Defintely the way to go.

Magpul is also coming out with their E-Mag for a polymer windowed mags for the FS2000 and Tavor, but I wouldn't recommend them for the AUG/F88 rifles.

Beauty of having the largest civilian market in the world in the USA is that competition has really lead to some amazing progress both in terms of firearms and accessories.

[digrar]

Thales owns ADI, they have a couple of Dollars, or make that Euros, to throw around.

[goose36]

you can also rotate the weapon 90 deg with the ejection port facing down, i would try with blanks first to get comfortable first.

[gafkiwi]

I don't know the ejection pattern of AUG-type rifles, but couldn't you rotate the rifle 90-degrees out and shoot from the left shoulder gangsta style if you had to shoot around a right-hand corner?

I prefer to just lean to my left almost as if I'm doing a stretch to the left when shooting around the left side of cover whilst standing. If Im firing from ****e I do it in a similar manner and lay on my left side revealing part of my head and weapon.

I have seen some pretty strange methods for non master patrolling with a steyr but I feel it is generally a waste of time as it is rarely ever practiced live. I make it a habit of practicing the above method when ever I hit the range or do field firing.

As for the use of old SLRs refitted, refitted they are still old weapons and can/have been more work to maintain than looking for a new alternative. When used they are more of a stop gap until a new weapon system can be trialled and adopted.

[shuredgefan]

As for the use of old SLRs refitted, refitted they are still old weapons and can/have been more work to maintain than looking for a new alternative. When used they are more of a stop gap until a new weapon system can be trialled and adopted.

Back when armies were 70 or 80% infantry and logistics were orchestrated in big ledger books. it made sense to ensure that everyone carried the same weapon, that used the same bullet and accept the shortcomings and inflexiblity that comes with that system.

Small arms and their ammo was a huge percentage of armies' budgets, but now with modern armies being 15 to 25% actual trigger-pullers and log run by computers, I think a well funded military adopt a new way.

I think, for example, the US Army and Marines should buy a SCAR-L and a SCAR-H, with extra, different length barrels for each infantryman. It would be $500 million amortized over 20 to 40 years, a drop in the bucket. The rear echelon, uh, merry fellows, could soldier on with their M-4s for another 50 years because what they carry doesn't really matter.

Commanders could tailor rifle and ammo to expected terrain and combat conditions and an efficient supply system would ensure the correct bullets, barrels and spare parts went with them.

[SilentType]

Thales owns ADI, they have a couple of Dollars, or make that Euros, to throw around.

No doubt then they're well off to do their own R&D.

[SilentType]

Point is that more and more combat will be urban, but also include rural still.

Urban means tighter areas.

Tighter areas mean you need rifles with shorter overall length.

Rural means you need a long enough barrel to get decent velocity on targets at intermediate distances to have proper fragmentation of the 5.56NATO round.

Right now the only way to have a rifle that is short in overall length without giving up velocity at intermediate distances is throught he bullpup design. Otherwise you add a logistical problem with having to carry extra rifles, armorers, or in the case of the SCAR extra barrels.

So if you trade away from a bullpup you're going to get other issues. It's a real problem.

I think you either solve the issues of the bullpup that are being done right now with various companies OR you figure out a way to have a standard configuration rifle that can fire 5.56mm with a shorter barrel and still have good lethality at intermediate distances (600-800 meters). I have heard talk about polygonal barrels for rifles to get higher velocity from a shorter barrel, but I'm not sure how viable that is right now.

[DaReFaItH]

para minimi arent much chop for conventional inf stuff... the collapsable stock is hard to get a decent grip on... the harris bipod isnt upto the rigours of fire and movement... remember not to pull the gat into you if you have a stoppage, the bipod legs fold down... if you have the short barrel you have no backup iron sight if your main optic fails... other than that... yep

[DaReFaItH]

ref the new F88... looks like the old F88 but brown... is anyone else reminded by the simpsons 'lisa lionheart vs. malibu stacy doll' saga?
Lisa 'its the same old malibu stacy' read most soldiers
Smithers 'but shes got a new hat' read DMO

[StuRat]

I'm pretty sure they did more than just changed the colour.

[gafkiwi]

para minimi arent much chop for conventional inf stuff... the collapsable stock is hard to get a decent grip on... the harris bipod isnt upto the rigours of fire and movement... remember not to pull the gat into you if you have a stoppage, the bipod legs fold down... if you have the short barrel you have no backup iron sight if your main optic fails... other than that... yep

Comes down to the user request before procurement, and what the US will allow FNH USA to release. Most options can be decided on prior to the tender. Things like the later M-4 style stock (is fine to shoot with) retaining the the iron sights and the standard bipod. Things like the stock can be a C*** to get as aparently because they're produce by FNH in the US and are tightly controlled by the state dept, even for allied countries.

But most your points are failures in the aquistion phase, by those of a higher pay bracket that make life harder for us at the work face.

[digrar]

But most your points are failures in the aquistion phase, by those of a higher pay bracket that make life harder for us at the work face.

Bought by someone who has most probably never used the weapon system.



I'm pretty sure they did more than just changed the colour.


Colour change, a bigger rail on top, and a side rail. Nothing too fancy.

[StuRat]

And bind the NAD's and torches to the weapon so you have to sign out even more stuff when you get it out of the armory.

[Engine Mech]

And the Kiwis are making the plastic parts. A local club member just got back from a tour of the Lithgoe factory, gave us a talk on every thing he had seen there. The factory is owned by the french. He got to fire a 50cal BMG while he was there.

[gafkiwi]

[QUOTE=digrar;4414050]Bought by someone who has most probably never used the weapon system.QUOTE]

Yeah, It seems that, that someone has family that serves in most other armies procurment chains with the same out look on things

[DaReFaItH]

im happy to be proven wrong... but aside from the few outer cosmetic differences that have since been mentioned in this thread i dont think there have been any radical changes to these new F88s.
im not sure who our para minimis were 'handmedowns' from but i dont like the chances of getting the changes we would prefer made.
i agree completely with the pros of the M4 type collapsable stock on an F89... smoother and with tighter control for grouping. i also found a 'grip organic' bipod like some of the USMC force recon use on their M4s used on the F89 was a good trade off

[goose36]

1. extra hole in gas plug
2. added sling swivel to back of rail
3. rail longer
4. ejection port longer[just]
5. new NAD/surefire rail that bolts on to left of receiver

as for the f89's there is a project to upgrade them, RAS on front, new legs and butt i think. the mk48[7.62MM] is now in. should see them in the next 12 months for the RAR. the special people have them all ready.

[DaReFaItH]

So that makes 4 gas settings now, or have they done away with the 'GR' setting? does anyone know if they plan to release a carbine version of these F88SA2, or if there had been any forward movement with the 'command foregrips' with integrated PRR TX button, NAD button etc?

[goose36]

So that makes 4 gas settings now, or have they done away with the 'GR' setting? does anyone know if they plan to release a carbine version of these F88SA2, or if there had been any forward movement with the 'command foregrips' with integrated PRR TX button, NAD button etc?


not settings, just holes!! and i hope they don't go ahead with the ''command grip'' stupid and un-necessary

[ShotOver]

1. extra hole in gas plug
2. added sling swivel to back of rail
3. rail longer
4. ejection port longer[just]
5. new NAD/surefire rail that bolts on to left of receiver

as for the f89's there is a project to upgrade them, RAS on front, new legs and butt i think. the mk48[7.62MM] is now in. should see them in the next 12 months for the RAR. the special people have them all ready.

Yeah, the SASR blokes we spoke to called it a "Maximi" which I thought was pretty amusing. First I've heard of the RAR getting them, will be a nice thing to have on the ground over there as 5.56mm just doesn't do the job from my experience and MAG58's were meant to be crew served, so some poor digger lugging it with all it's CES/Ammo isn't the best way to utilise 7.62mm in the field.

[Slouch]

For those few who haven't seen the new colour scheme yet-

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7291/steyr.jpg

[ShotOver]

What's the go with it, I've read in the Army rag that it has several varients ranging from Command to Marksman. How do they sort that out, my unit will be one of the last to get them so I don't expect to see them anytime soon.

[Slouch]

I don't know any details about how they're going to dole out the different versions, but I do know they are, surprise surprise, heavier than the old S's, which were in turn heavier than the fixed-sight Steyrs. And that's not including the new NAD bracket and sights and lights and GPS and crap they're talking about fitting.

[goose36]

no they are the variants that will come out later!

[JamesW]

Are these tan F88s newly manufactured, or merely tarted up by Thales?

[digrar]

I had read that old ones from 7 Brigade were heading back to Lithgow to be refurbished to the new standard. I couldn't tell you if that is what has happened with the ones that are currently being issued.

[goose36]

FTR- first time rebuilds. all of them

[MSR]

And bind the NAD's and torches to the weapon so you have to sign out even more stuff when you get it out of the armory.
What's wrong with signing for a piece of kit that makes your life a million times easier at night?
You have to sign for your NAD eventually.
Is twice a year too much for you?

[Nige]

FTR- first time rebuilds. all of them
Close - Factory Thorough Refurbishment - http://www.thalesgroup.com/Press_Releases/Australia_291008/

A bit like the M1A1s we bought. Not that I am complaining - bloody good idea.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Bring back the .303

[DaReFaItH]

any word on the carbine variants being available?

[MSR]

I have heard that all variants will have the longer barrel. Not a fan of the carbine for actual accuracy of the weapon. Not a big difference, but noticeable. Th F88c is sweet for use in vehicles, urban etc because of it's size.

[Zarak]

I have heard that all variants will have the longer barrel. Not a fan of the carbine for actual accuracy of the weapon. Not a big difference, but noticeable. Th F88c is sweet for use in vehicles, urban etc because of it's size.

The carbine has a longer barrel than the M4. :(

[MSR]

I talking about the difference between the normal F88 and the carbine variant. Not trying to slag off the M4.

[Zarak]

I talking about the difference between the normal F88 and the carbine variant. Not trying to slag off the M4.

I meant as far as accuracy goes. Even though you may dislike the drop in accuracy with the 16" barrel of the carbine, its longer than the 14.5" barrel of the M4.

[DaReFaItH]

Its just a little shorter (the carbine) which is handy if you have to jump it. Some say the carbines are more accurate due to the ballistics of the round and the fact that the round leaves the barrel of a carbine at the same time as the propellant burns out. Not that i would know, or that it makes a difference... in my hands the F88 is an area weapon... --sigh--

[Nige]

I find the F88C pretty accurate, certainly as accurate as the L85A2. 300m is sufficient for most engagements, however Afghanistan has shown we still need to reach out and touch people at greater ranges, the 7.62 Minimi or M60E4 and the SR25 should do the job...

[MSR]

@Zarak: Cool, just needed clarification. Thought you meant I was rubbishing the M4.

@DaReFaItH: Yeah maybe, I believe over longer distances the difference (200+) come in.
A SAC makes a massive difference to your shooting. Get one to watch you if you want to improve it. Never too late.

[Goldfishsoldier]

Our unit just got issued the new Styre's just before going bush. Since I'm a gunner I didn't get one, but the general consensus among us was that they were heavier, the paint work on the sights scratches far more easily to reveal the shiny silver underneath (and that's just from the transit) the magazine's were a lot harder to insert and that the recoil is heavier because of the lighter trigger pull. but the new sight were a bit better to aim with.

[goose36]

its not heavier, we weighed them and there is not any more recoil, that is bloody silly.the trigger mech has not changed in tension. i agree the paint scratches easy. i had about 1 or 2 double feeds with the new mags for about 10 mag's but then it came good and it feels nice, have put about 50 or so mags through it since we got them.

what sight you talking about.

[Goldfishsoldier]

Maybe, we didn't put many rounds down during the ex, most of the problem's we had will probably go once they've worn in. I'm just saying what a lot of the other blokes found with the new rifle's. The new sight I think have better eye relief and battle sights.

[MSR]

What do you mean by better eye relief? The A1's have the ability to move the optic on the rail. Are you talking about internally of the sight?

[Goldfishsoldier]

What do you mean by better eye relief? The A1's have the ability to move the optic on the rail. Are you talking about internally of the sight?

Dunno. They just feel a bit easier to find the eye relief, at least for me.

[MSR]

Dunno. They just feel a bit easier to find the eye relief
You mean easier to find the sight picture don't you? Because that doesn't make sense.
Try talking soldier instead of vague civi.

[digrar]

If you've had an S before, it's no different, set the sight where you want it. Instant eye relief.

[MSR]

Exactly, this dude confuses me.

[Nige]

Maybe he had a non-SA1C weapon. There's still a few around so not entirely unlikely.

[ShotOver]

I doubt it, even Kapooka are getting F88-S's. The lads I talked to just before rotating out of country thought the new F88's were not all that great, took around 1,000 rounds to work them in. But you get that with any new model.

We were a but confused considering NATO is moving towards a different round, is this new Steyr a stop-gap?

[goose36]

new round, havent heard anything about that. i'm keen for 6.5 or bigger!

[gafkiwi]

new round, havent heard anything about that. i'm keen for 6.5 or bigger!


Yeah I doubt a new round will bump the 5.56, Possibly talking about the M-242 77 grain 5.56, shot a bit of it, good thing with our new incomming Steyrs/ACOGs is the fall of shot between that and the SS109 is negligible so its set up works for both rounds.

[DaReFaItH]

Dunno. They just feel a bit easier to find the eye relief, at least for me.

During a 'I'll show you mine if you show me yours' session with a Kiwi baggie, I noticed the standard optics for the F88 (combat doughnut) had a slight difference between AS and NZ. The NZ optic didn't seem to have cross hairs leading into the center doughnut, but when you focused carefully you could see the crosshairs inside the O. i thought this was best of both worlds enabling rapid acquisition and fire (read CQB) with the O, and also controlled tight grouping (read trying to punch a hole through sandbags or hut walls) with the crosshairs.

Is there anything like this for the new optic?

[SilentType]

I wonder when ADI will add a bolt release feature to the F88 as can be found with the new Steyr AUG A3 and MSAR STG in America? Seems like a simple enough addition that would improve reloading.

I like that both the Steyr AUG A3 an the MSAR STGE4 have lowered their optic rail heights to allow for cowitness of BUIS and better optic height with mounts designed for the AR/M16 platform.

[DaReFaItH]

[QUOTE=SilentType;4423882]I wonder when ADI will add a bolt release feature to the F88 as can be found with the new Steyr AUG A3 and MSAR STG in America? Seems like a simple enough addition that would improve reloading.

+1 For sure, the bolt assist on our current F88 is less than useless, so much fine movement and messing about bring the handle back to meet the guide rod, pushing the stud down and then trying to bring the whole thing back together. I dream for a day when the F88 has a proper bolt assist, a bolt release and a mag release you can activate with the master hand still on the pistol grip. Maybe if we got an F88SC and an M4 together in a dimly lit room, some Barry White playing in the background and a few cans of rum...

[Opening Batsman]

While we are dreaming, I vote for some form of dust cover over the ejection port and some magical way of stopping **** getting on to the guide rods through the gap where the cocking handle chills.

[goose36]

[QUOTE=SilentType;4423882]I wonder when ADI will add a bolt release feature to the F88 as can be found with the new Steyr AUG A3 and MSAR STG in America? Seems like a simple enough addition that would improve reloading.

+1 For sure, the bolt assist on our current F88 is less than useless, so much fine movement and messing about bring the handle back to meet the guide rod, pushing the stud down and then trying to bring the whole thing back together. I dream for a day when the F88 has a proper bolt assist, a bolt release and a mag release you can activate with the master hand still on the pistol grip. Maybe if we got an F88SC and an M4 together in a dimly lit room, some Barry White playing in the background and a few cans of rum...


**** the M4[ nothing against it!] lets get a 416 and a F88!! a feed at the mess, a few cans at the boozer and a x-rated night in at the lines!

[peace_benny5405]

THE Steyr family of weapons
is set to remain the individual weapon for the Army out to 2020 – and a series of improvements are under way. Acting Director of Armament Systems Program Office
Pat Meehan said the Steyr continued to prove itself to be a highly reliable and
effective weapon – and the work that was under way would ensure it remained so into the future. “The DMO, in close consultation with Army users, has just signed an
$11.3m contract with Thales Australia for production of the F88SA2,” Mr Meehan said. “It
will mean improved F88SA2 buildstandard from March 2009, closely followed by the SA3 in 2010.” Program Manager Small Arms Lt-Col Paul Nathan said soldiers
would see a longer top rail incorporating a side mount for a torch, a lighter optical sight,
as well as a ‘reduced visibility’ colour scheme for the entire weapon.“Initial assessments on the weapon are very positive,” Lt-Col Nathan said.
“A comprehensive user evaluation by 2RAR – currently occurring – will provide
valuable feedback.” He said the SA3 would continue to build on the SA1 and SA2
by delivering an improved trigger assembly and modifications that would allow soldiers to use a wider variety of 5.56mm ammunition, as well as F1 ammunition.
Steyr to stay until 2020 Concurrently, Project Land 125 has instigated a
$6.5m development project with Thales Australia that will address weight and power
usage, as well as improvements in surveillance and targeting technology.
Project Director Land 125 Lt-Col Anthony Heath said a team of design engineers from
Australia,South Africa and Austria were working on the third concept design of
the enhanced Steyr. “If early design iterations are anything to go by, the enhanced
Steyr will be a very different looking and highly capable weapon,”he said.
“It will have an ‘open architecture’ that will allow soldiers to configure their weapon for specific tasks in a way not previously possible – speaking as an infantryman
myself it’s an exciting process to participate in.” Enhanced Steyr, with its redesigned
chassis, will have four variants – commander, marksman, grenadier
and the standard version. Full production will begin in 2011.

[digrar]

That's all a bit out dated, 2RAR has done the trial and the weapon is in Afghanistan with 1RAR at the moment, as well as on issue to some 7 Brigade units.

[SilentType]

They could certainly improve the way that the F88 is manufactured by giving it a 7075 aluminum receiver that was billet and at .0003 tolerance. Basically like the American TPD AXR, but at even tighter tolerances.

The side rail is great. The MSAR STG 556 and the Steyr AUG A3 all have added side rails to their receiver. I like the MSAR's side rail position better though, because it doesn't place the accessory as near your receiver vent slots as the A3 does and it allows you to have various lengths.

What is the thread pitch on the F88 Barrel? Same as the Steyr AUG A1 with a 13x1 LH? If so I would definitely go with a 1/2x28, because that would allow various different Flash Suppressors and make mounting suppressors much easier. Adding a Flash Suppressor like the Vortex would sure help troops in the field.

Probably one of the biggest things they could do is to some how configure the gas system to have a special suppressor setting that would allow the pressure to be more ideal for use with a suppressor. One of the biggest draw backs to the Steyr design is that you can't suppress the rifles as well as you can an M4.

The top optic rail should definetly be lowered and lengthened. There should be enough rail space to mount the various aftermarket optics and magnifiers. Also, if you're going with an optic it's nice to have the ability to add Back Up Iron Sights added with enough relief between them to make them effective.

Bolt release is definitely an upgrade it should have.

The Bolt could be chrome.

Do those things and the ADF could have a viable export rifle as well that other nations would purchase. They could do a civilian version and bring it to the U.S.A and I'd buy two of them. We're going to get the IWI Tavor soon.

They could make the F88 the Royals Royce of AUG pattern rifles.

[captainahab]

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/4649/610xkd.jpg

just to ad another picture to the discussions. That's the new version issued to our SOF

[Opening Batsman]

They don't have the ability to change sights?

[SilentType]

The Jagdkommando AUG has that new bolt release. Obviously better rail space as well.

[kamarian]

Its just a little shorter (the carbine) which is handy if you have to jump it. Some say the carbines are more accurate due to the ballistics of the round and the fact that the round leaves the barrel of a carbine at the same time as the propellant burns out. Not that i would know, or that it makes a difference... in my hands the F88 is an area weapon... --sigh--

Im my hands it's a point weapon. The point being anywhere the bullet lands when i am shooting at the target!

[0497]

Colonel Nagy Sorial, Director of Soldier Modernisation Systems Program, shows Minister for Defence, Senator John Faulkner, the new Steyr rifle prototype during a visit to Victoria Barracks in Melbourne.

http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/faulkner/gallery/20100122/index.htm

[StuRat]

The new Austeyr has only gone out to units recently, it'll probably be a while before those are hitting the shelves.

[Sierra10]

Colonel Nagy Sorial, Director of Soldier Modernisation Systems Program, shows Minister for Defence, Senator John Faulkner, the new Steyr rifle prototype during a visit to Victoria Barracks in Melbourne.

http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/faulkner/gallery/20100122/index.htm


Looks....Fancy
Love to see some trials.

[0497]

http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/faulkner/gallery/20100122/20100121adf8262658_145.jpg

My eyes might be deceiving me but, it looks to have a longer barrel

[SilentType]

I think they should look into a carbon fiber hammer pack instead of the standard polymer. It would make for a much improved trigger pull.

[SilentType]

http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/faulkner/gallery/20100122/20100121adf8262658_145.jpg

My eyes might be deceiving me but, it looks to have a longer barrel

Not exactly sure why they have changed up the hand/trigger guard?

[Flagg]

http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/faulkner/gallery/20100122/20100121adf8262658_145.jpg

My eyes might be deceiving me but, it looks to have a longer barrel

It looks about the same as a standard length(non-shorty barrel) IW Steyr to me.......but I could be wrong.

[Flagg]

I think they should look into a carbon fiber hammer pack instead of the standard polymer. It would make for a much improved trigger pull.

Really?

One of the few improvements(other than more modern fixed optics) I would like to see is a new trigger mech....but it's my understanding and limited experience that it's a shortcoming common to bullpups.......not a huge deal to me....but it would be great if it broke like a Savage Accutrigger :)

But to be honest, compared to a traditional layout H & K SL8, I think the Steyr trigger ain't half horrible, especially it being a bullpup. I don't see how carbon fibre over polymer is going to have any positive impact whatsoever considering it still doesn't fix problem of the same distance remaining between the trigger mech and the actual trigger.

I wonder about all the rails.....I've lived this long without them.....I'm afraid someday I'll be humping around looking like a fobbit with an M4 carrying every accessory known to man kind.

[Clockwinder]

Where will I be able to buy an F88 to go with my SLR and .303 on the wall?

[Flagg]

Where will I be able to buy an F88 to go with my SLR and .303 on the wall?

Ain't going to happen legally I'm afraid.

I believe Aus and NZ have signed up to UN small arms conventions whereby all ex-mil and ex-LE small arms get destroyed instead of tendered to the public.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's the case....that and the fact no Aussie or Kiwi government would ever sell ex-mil or ex-LE rifles out of fear of one being used someday in a crime to sink the government.

The latest example in the region I believe is the bolt action rifles replaced by M4s in the NZ Police a few years ago........destroyed.

[Clockwinder]

Ain't going to happen legally I'm afraid.

I believe Aus and NZ have signed up to UN small arms conventions whereby all ex-mil and ex-LE small arms get destroyed instead of tendered to the public.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's the case....that and the fact no Aussie or Kiwi government would ever sell ex-mil or ex-LE rifles out of fear of one being used someday in a crime to sink the government.

The latest example in the region I believe is the bolt action rifles replaced by M4s in the NZ Police a few years ago........destroyed.
My FN SLR was purchased through the Australian War Memorial - display only with no way to ever make is operative - the gas chamber is solid and can't be retro fitted and the cocking handle is locked.
My .303 was purchased many years ago (via the RSL), and (theoretically) could be made operational. The firing pin has been removed from the breech block.

[digrar]

Not exactly sure why they have changed up the hand/trigger guard?

That is the F88 fitted with UGL (it’s sitting on the table), which is why the barrel looks longer (but isn't) and has the changed guard.

I know a bloke who can do you up a resin F88 CW.

[Spagga]

Fastex on the rear sling swivel worked spot on digrar.

F88 is a F88......bolt on gear is just a luxury.


They should paint the Collins sub also.......give it a new lease on life.

[trunk_munkey28]

F88 is a F88......bolt on gear is just a luxury.
True, the operator is always the most important part of any weapons system, but I would argue that an IR laser aiming device and a weapon light are just about a necessity for modern warfighters. The ability to truly own the night is a huge step forward from where we were even 10 or 15 years ago.

[digrar]

Nice being able to get v bull hits from the hip at night from 100m. I could never do that prior to the NAD/NVG combo.

[gafkiwi]

Nice being able to get v bull hits from the hip at night from 100m. I could never do that prior to the NAD/NVG combo.

One issue I've observed with our upgrade program is some guys (normally older crowd) anti any accessories on the steyr, (back in my day....syndrome) Vs christmas tree gang.

I see a night aiming device and some sort of white/IR light combo, as being a basic requirement for an Infantryman. We've been testing in-line sights as well both TI and IR and these can be another highly effective tool. Suppressors are another bloody good bit of kit which can aid night fighting greatly,

All this kit has a place I believe so long as its correctly utilised. I was shooting a EIW Steyr (our new model comming into service) at some night vision trials, Fitted with its suppressor, in-line sight and a NAD it was an "F'n" deadly piece of kit I would happily deploy with, over some other aparantly highly rated platforms.

[goose36]

the main problem with the F88 and attachments is where they are placed and weight, my F88 with a GLA, ACOG, NAD and torch loaded weighs nearly 8kgs, would i ditch any of them, no bloody way. they all give me a advantage. should the ADF look at another platform rather then trying to mod a 25 year old gun, ****ing oath.

[trunk_munkey28]

I never weighed my C7 with all the goodies mounted, but I would reason it to be about 8kgs too. Our mounting system for the LAD and tac light sucks howver, and totally destroys the natural balance of the rifle. Plus, the mount for our 203s sucks, and probably adds and extra pound or so to the overal weight.
How's the balance on the F88 all kitted up? If its heavy, thats one thing, but awkward balance is worse.

[gafkiwi]

I carried one for sometime throughout my career and I actually Like the balance of the Steyr/203. With the right set up you can keep the extra weight of accessories central, As you said TM, I find Balance is the issue more than weight.

[goose36]

you can only mount the NAD and torch on the right side, thats over 400g lopsided, in saying that it doesn't seem to effect balance that much, i purchased a 203grip which help a lot with carriage and shooting, i still think the platform has been pushed enough, time to look else where.