The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

[Zoomie]

The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

While 90 percent of the guns traced to the U.S. actually originated in the United States, the percent traced to the U.S. is only about 17 percent of the total number of guns reaching Mexico.

By William La Jeunesse and Maxim Lott


You've heard this shocking "fact" before -- on TV and radio, in newspapers, on the Internet and from the highest politicians in the land: 90 percent of the weapons used to commit crimes in Mexico come from the United States.-- Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said it to reporters on a flight to Mexico City.
-- CBS newsman Bob Schieffer referred to it while interviewing President Obama.
-- California Sen. Dianne Feinstein said at a Senate hearing: "It is unacceptable to have 90 percent of the guns that are picked up in Mexico and used to shoot judges, police officers and mayors ... come from the United States."
-- William Hoover, assistant director for field operations at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, testified in the House of Representatives that "there is more than enough evidence to indicate that over 90 percent of the firearms that have either been recovered in, or interdicted in transport to Mexico, originated from various sources within the United States."
There's just one problem with the 90 percent "statistic" and it's a big one:
It's just not true.
In fact, it's not even close. By all accounts, it's probably around 17 percent.
What's true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency's assistant director, "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S."
But a large percentage of the guns recovered in Mexico do not get sent back to the U.S. for tracing, because it is obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S.
"Not every weapon seized in Mexico has a serial number on it that would make it traceable, and the U.S. effort to trace weapons really only extends to weapons that have been in the U.S. market," Matt Allen, special agent of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), told FOX News.
Video: Click here to watch more on where the guns come from. (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/#)
A Look at the Numbers
In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.
But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes.
In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S.
So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:
-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.
-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.
- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.
-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.
-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.
-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.
'These Don't Come From El Paso'
Ed Head, a firearms instructor in Arizona who spent 24 years with the U.S. Border Patrol, recently displayed an array of weapons considered "assault rifles" that are similar to those recovered in Mexico, but are unavailable for sale in the U.S.
"These kinds of guns -- the auto versions of these guns -- they are not coming from El Paso," he said. "They are coming from other sources. They are brought in from Guatemala. They are brought in from places like China. They are being diverted from the military. But you don't get these guns from the U.S."
Some guns, he said, "are legitimately shipped to the government of Mexico, by Colt, for example, in the United States. They are approved by the U.S. government for use by the Mexican military service. The guns end up in Mexico that way -- the fully auto versions -- they are not smuggled in across the river."
Many of the fully automatic weapons that have been seized in Mexico cannot be found in the U.S., but they are not uncommon in the Third World.
The Mexican government said it has seized 2,239 grenades in the last two years -- but those grenades and the rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) are unavailable in U.S. gun shops. The ones used in an attack on the U.S. Consulate in Monterrey in October and a TV station in January were made in South Korea. Almost 70 similar grenades were seized in February in the bottom of a truck entering Mexico from Guatemala.
"Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semi-automatic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California," according to a report in the Los Angeles Times.
Boatloads of Weapons
So why would the Mexican drug cartels, which last year grossed between $17 billion and $38 billion, bother buying single-shot rifles, and force thousands of unknown "straw" buyers in the U.S. through a government background check, when they can buy boatloads of fully automatic M-16s and assault rifles from China, Israel or South Africa?
Alberto Islas, a security consultant who advises the Mexican government, says the drug cartels are using the Guatemalan border to move black market weapons. Some are left over from the Central American wars the United States helped fight; others, like the grenades and launchers, are South Korean, Israeli and Spanish. Some were legally supplied to the Mexican government; others were sold by corrupt military officers or officials.
The exaggeration of United States "responsibility" for the lawlessness in Mexico extends even beyond the "90-percent" falsehood -- and some Second Amendment activists believe it's designed to promote more restrictive gun-control laws in the U.S.
In a remarkable claim, Auturo Sarukhan, the Mexican ambassador to the U.S., said Mexico seizes 2,000 guns a day from the United States -- 730,000 a year. That's a far cry from the official statistic from the Mexican attorney general's office, which says Mexico seized 29,000 weapons in all of 2007 and 2008.
Chris Cox, spokesman for the National Rifle Association, blames the media and anti-gun politicians in the U.S. for misrepresenting where Mexican weapons come from.
"Reporter after politician after news anchor just disregards the truth on this," Cox said. "The numbers are intentionally used to weaken the Second Amendment."
"The predominant source of guns in Mexico is Central and South America. You also have Russian, Chinese and Israeli guns. It's estimated that over 100,000 soldiers deserted the army to work for the drug cartels, and that ignores all the police. How many of them took their weapons with them?"
But Tom Diaz, senior policy analyst at the Violence Policy Center, called the "90 percent" issue a red herring and said that it should not detract from the effort to stop gun trafficking into Mexico.
"Let's do what we can with what we know," he said. "We know that one hell of a lot of firearms come from the United States because our gun market is wide open.
Source (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2009/04/02/myth-percent-guns-mexico-fraction-number-claimed/)
About sometime someone actually went after this bogus statistic.

[Geezah]

I wonder what our resident Mexicans will say to this, after all they have put so much stock in all the bogus information?

[Carib]

Anyone with a little common sense could have figured this out to be bogus.

I mean if you see the pictures from Mexican media from the daily drug raids, you'll see M203's, frags, RPG's. Anyone with a little knowledge in the area of arms knows this stuff can't be bought in the US.

[CMNot]

There's a rapidly disintegrating state, a shared porous border with the US, and the author is worried about where some firearms originated from? Talk about sweating the incidental details...

[Felix U. Gómez]

I wonder what our resident Mexicans will say to this, after all they have put so much stock in all the bogus information?

Well, for one thing the article sounds like a big load of bogus information itself. It sounds to me like some people are desperately trying to blot the Sun out with their finger. It is full of inprecisions and really just made up facts.

[Zoomie]

Well, for one thing the article sounds like a big load of bogus information itself. It sounds to me like some people are desperately trying to blot the Sun out with their finger. It is full of inprecisions and really just made up facts.
Care to actually point them out?

[Albatross]

Well, for one thing the article sounds like a big load of bogus information itself. It sounds to me like some people are desperately trying to blot the Sun out with their finger. It is full of inprecisions and really just made up facts.


counter points and proof?

[Felix U. Gómez]

"-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium."
Well I don't know, but anybody that knows anything about the Mexican Army can tell you that the standard ussue weapon of the Mexican Army is not, and has never been the M-16. That I know of, the vast majority of deserters do not do so with their weapon. It is very rare, I mean extremely rare that narco weapons' caches that are captured contain the standard issue weapon of the Mexican Army. It sounds like who ever constructed this article didn't do their homework right.

[Felix U. Gómez]

"But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes.
In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S."

How can you affirm that a gun could not be traced to the U.S. if you never tried tracing it? Besides, in a great many cases the serial numbers of guns are filed to avoid tracing.

[Dragunov]

Wow. Since when are ''Belgium made'' M-16s standard issue in the Mexican Army? rofl I wonder if these experts have ever used the ''Internetz''.

Also, I would like to know from our Israeli friends if its possible to buy big loads of firearms from Israel with out anyone given a rat's ass to whos hands they are going to?

[Policía Loco]

Besides, in a great many cases the serial numbers of guns are filed to avoid tracing.


The serial numbers could still be identified from those guns.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Chris Cox, spokesman for the National Rifle Association, blames the media and anti-gun politicians in the U.S. for misrepresenting where Mexican weapons come from.
"Reporter after politician after news anchor just disregards the truth on this," Cox said. "The numbers are intentionally used to weaken the Second Amendment."
Honestly, this article features statements form the spokesman of the National Rifle Association. Not exactly the most unbiassed and impartial person to interview for this article. Just with that, the article deserves not to be taken seriously.

[WarriorMonk]

"Belgian-made"

FN herstal does make M-16s...http://www.fnmfg.com/

FN manufacturing is a subsidiary of FN herstal...which is probably where the confusion comes from...

and felix...there's only ONE statement from the NRA...other statements are from other people...what gives?

and why doesn't the ambassador recommend to the government that every single one of those guns be actually traced to their point of origin instead of throwing around wild claims?

"buying arms from Israel/China/x country" - does it have to be through a legitimate state representative...or a black market arms dealer who is just conveniently based in that country?

[Felix U. Gómez]

"The predominant source of guns in Mexico is Central and South America. You also have Russian, Chinese and Israeli guns. It's estimated that over 100,000 soldiers deserted the army to work for the drug cartels, and that ignores all the police. How many of them took their weapons with them?"
How did they estimate the number of soldiers that deserted, and how do they know that they went to work for the drug cartels? Did they leave a good bye letter? By the way that the confrontations between army and narcos usually go I don't think that the narcos are employing that many soldiers because they mostly always get their azzes kicked. You would figure that with 100,000 trained soldiers in their ranks the cartels could march on Mexico City.
How many of them took their weapons with them?"
Like I said, cache captures almost never yield captured HK G-3's, but they certainly yield AK-47's, a weapon not used by ANY branch of the Mexican army and by almost no police force at any level in Mexico. A weapon that we do see quite often is the .50 cal Barret rifle, a weapon very common in Gun Stores in the U.S. and at gun shows. They are very expensive but certainly not out of reach by the cartels.

[Felix U. Gómez]

"buying arms from Israel/China/x country" - does it have to be through a legitimate state representative...or a black market arms dealer who is just conveniently based in that country?

Why would the cartels go all the way to Israel or China to buy on their black market, as if those countries didn't have extremely tight security when one could just cross the border into the U.S. and buy from the black market in the U.S.?

[Dragunov]

"Belgian-made"

FN herstal does make M-16s...http://www.fnmfg.com/

FN manufacturing is a subsidiary of FN herstal...which is probably where the confusion comes from...

and felix...there's only ONE statement from the NRA...other statements are from other people...what gives?

and why doesn't the ambassador recommend to the government that every single one of those guns be actually traced to their point of origin instead of throwing around wild claims?

Yeah, the point is, the Mexican Army doesn't use M16s as their standard rifle. The standard rifle is the HK G3.

This just show the lack of professionalism from these so called'' experts''. They are too lazy to actually do a deep investigation. Who can take this article seriously?

[Geezah]

Chris Cox, spokesman for the National Rifle Association, blames the media and anti-gun politicians in the U.S. for misrepresenting where Mexican weapons come from.
"Reporter after politician after news anchor just disregards the truth on this," Cox said. "The numbers are intentionally used to weaken the Second Amendment."
Honestly, this article features statements form the spokesman of the National Rifle Association. Not exactly the most unbiassed and impartial person to interview for this article. Just with that, the article deserves not to be taken seriously.

Something you will find with the NRA that you will not find with the anti-gun organisations, is they(the NRA) stick to facts. They do not fabricate information to push their agenda.

[Dragunov]

Why would the cartels go all the way to Israel or China to buy on their black market, as if those countries didn't have extremely tight security when one could just cross the border into the U.S. and buy from the black market in the U.S.?

Yeah that's what i was thinking man, Israel has extremily good intell agencies that keep track of everything that goes on in Israel. Again, these experts don't know what they are talking about. :roll:

[Felix U. Gómez]

Wow. Since when are ''Belgium made'' M-16s standard issue in the Mexican Army? rofl I wonder if these experts have ever used the ''Internetz''.

Also, I would like to know from our Israeli friends if its possible to buy big loads of firearms from Israel with out anyone given a rat's ass to whos hands they are going to?

Two excellent points Dragunov. Do you think that you could provide us with some pictures of captured narco arsenals so that everyone can see how many Mexican Army standard issue HK G-3's they are recovering from the cartels?

[Felix U. Gómez]

Yeah that's what i was thinking man, Israel has extremily good intell agencies that keep track of everything that goes on in Israel. Again, these experts don't know what they are talking about. :roll:

You would think that having so many terrorist enemies they would, no?
I've heard from Mexican that have travelled to Israel (it is the Holy Land) that in Israeli airports if they even see that you have slightly tanned skin they will give you the 4th degree treatment, take you into a backroom and question the s--- out of you until they are satisfied that you are not a threat to them.

[Felix U. Gómez]

While 90 percent of the guns traced to the U.S. actually originated in the United States, the percent traced to the U.S. is only about 17 percent of the total number of guns reaching Mexico.

The title itself is misleading. It makes you think that only 17 percent of all the weapons captured from the cartels in Mexico were traced to the U.S. but in reality no one can affirm this because they didn't get to see all 100% of the weapons. They are grabbing at straws.

[CMNot]

Israeli airport security is exceptionally slick and puts the security of every other airport I've been through to shame. Particularly Heathrow rofl

[Felix U. Gómez]

The article quotes the spokesman for the NRA and also an interview from FOX News. Even in Mexico we know about "Fox News" and how "fair and balanced" those guys are.:roll:

[Felix U. Gómez]

Israeli airport security is exceptionally slick and puts the security of every other airport I've been through to shame. Particularly Heathrow rofl

Do you think that a Mexican Narco with a briefcase full of cash could get through?

[Geezah]

The article quotes the spokesman for the NRA and also an interview from FOX News. Even in Mexico we know about "Fox News" and how "fair and balanced" those guys are.:roll:

Would that be because it does not agree with what you want everyone else to believe?

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/7744/610x897987geomm5.jpg

[Felix U. Gómez]

Ahhh, Geezah.... those are federal police, not army, and those aren't M-16's. The article doesn't say anything about desertions from the federal police does it? You need to go back and fabricate information on them I guess. :roll:

[Dan2004]

Yeah, the point is, the Mexican Army doesn't use M16s as their standard rifle. The standard rifle is the HK G3.

This just show the lack of professionalism from these so called'' experts''. They are too lazy to actually do a deep investigation. Who can take this article seriously?

M16s are in use by several Central and South American nations: Brazil, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Colombia, Argentina, etc...

It stands to reason that the M16/ARs could have originated from any of those countries. Not just the US.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Yeah, but that is just speculation, and no weapon looked at by the ATF was ever traced back to Brazil or El Salvador was it? At least the article doesn't say that. What it does say is that the M-16 is standard issue weapon of the Mexican Army and that "an estimated" 100,000 Mexican soldiers deseted and a lot of them with their weapons. Assertions which are near laughable at best. Besides, the most common weapon used by the cartels are AK-47s, not M-16's and AR's.

[Geezah]

Ahhh, Geezah.... those are federal police, not army, and those aren't M-16's. The article doesn't say anything about desertions from the federal police does it? You need to go back and fabricate information on them I guess. :roll:


Those are based on the M16 platform aren't they? So to imply that no-one uses them down there in 'We Want to be American SO Bad' land, there is potential for them to be supplied out of Mexico.

The fact that your military have aided the drug cartels in the past does not help your case, and I put more weight int he fact that the cartels have been aided by those onthe Government payroll.

[hsh2]

Besides, the most common weapon used by the cartels are AK-47s, not M-16's and AR's.

Um ok? And those come from where exactly?

The US or from Central America one of the most corrupt and crime ridden region on earth, or are you even denying that?

[Ought Six]

Drug cartels' new weaponry means war (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,229992.story)



Narcotics traffickers are acquiring firepower more appropriate to an army -- including grenade launchers and antitank rockets -- and the police are feeling outgunned.



By Ken Ellingwood and Tracy Wilkinson
The Los Angeles Times
March 15, 2009


Reporting from Zihuatanejo, Mexico, and Mexico City -- It was a brazen assault, not just because it targeted the city's police station, but for the choice of weapon: grenades.

The Feb. 21 attack on police headquarters in coastal Zihuatanejo, which injured four people, fit a disturbing trend of Mexico's drug wars. Traffickers have escalated their arms race, acquiring military-grade weapons, including hand grenades, grenade launchers, armor-piercing munitions and antitank rockets with firepower far beyond the assault rifles and pistols that have dominated their arsenals.

Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semiautomatic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California.

The proliferation of heavier armaments points to a menacing new stage in the Mexican government's 2-year-old war against drug organizations, which are evolving into a more militarized force prepared to take on Mexican army troops, deployed by the thousands, as well as to attack each other.

These groups appear to be taking advantage of a robust global black market and porous borders, especially between Mexico and Guatemala. Some of the weapons are left over from the wars that the United States helped fight in Central America, U.S. officials said.

"There is an arms race between the cartels," said Alberto Islas, a security consultant who advises the Mexican government.

"One group gets rocket-propelled grenades, the other has to have them."

There are even more ominous developments: Authorities reported three thefts of several hundred pounds of blasting material from industrial explosives plants in Durango during a four-day period last month. Authorities believe the material may have been destined for car bombs or remotely detonated roadside devices, which have been used with devastating effect in Iraq, killing more than 1,822 members of U.S.-led forces since the war there began nearly six years ago.

The Mexican army has recovered most of the material, and there has been no reported use of such devices.

Grenades or military-grade weapons have been reported in at least 10 Mexican states during the last six months, used against police headquarters, city halls, a U.S. consulate, TV stations and senior Mexican officials. In a three-week period ended March 6, five grenade attacks were launched on police patrols and stations and the home of a commander in the south-central state of Michoacan. Other such attacks occurred in five other states during the same period.

At least one grenade attack north of the border, at a Texas nightclub frequented by U.S. police officers, has been tied to Mexican traffickers.

How many weapons have been smuggled into Mexico from Central America is not known, and the military-grade munitions are still a small fraction of the larger arsenal in the hands of narcotics traffickers. Mexican officials continue to push Washington to stem the well-documented flow of conventional weapons from the United States, as Congress holds hearings on the role those smuggled guns play in arming Mexican drug cartels.

There is no comprehensive data on how many people have been killed by heavier weapons.

But four days after the assault on the Zihuatanejo police station, four of the city's officers were slain in a highway ambush six miles from town on the road to Acapulco. In addition to the standard AK-47 and AR-15 assault rifles, the attackers fired at least six .50-caliber shells into the officers' pickup. The vehicle blew up when hit by what experts believe was a grenade or explosive projectile. The bodies of the officers were charred.

"These are really weapons of war," said Alberto Fernandez, spokesman for the Zihuatanejo city government. "We only know these devices from war movies."

U.S. law enforcement officials say they detected the smuggling of grenades and other military-grade equipment into Mexico about a year and a half ago, and observed a sharp uptick in the use of the weapons about six months ago.

The Mexican government said it has seized 2,239 grenades in the last two years, in contrast to 59 seized over the previous two years.

The enhanced weaponry represents a wide sampling from the international arms bazaar, with grenades and launchers produced by U.S., South Korean, Israeli, Spanish or former Soviet bloc manufacturers. Many had been sold legally to governments, including Mexico's, and then were diverted onto the black market. Some may be sold directly to the traffickers by corrupt elements of national armies, authorities and experts say.

The single deadliest attack on civilians by drug traffickers in Mexico took place Sept. 15 at an Independence Day celebration in the central plaza of Morelia, hometown of President Felipe Calderon and capital of Michoacan. Attackers hurled fragmentation grenades at the celebrating crowd, killing eight people and wounding dozens more.

Amid the recent spate of attacks in Michoacan, federal police on Feb. 20 announced the discovery of 66 fragmentation grenades in the fake bottom of a truck intercepted in southern Mexico, just over the border from Guatemala. The two men arrested with the cargo told police they were transporting the grenades to Morelia.

Grenades used in three attacks in Monterrey and Texas were linked to a single Monterrey warehouse, packed with explosives and high-caliber guns, reportedly belonging to the Gulf cartel. Mexican authorities raided the warehouse in October and seized the cache, which contained South Korean-manufactured grenades similar to the American M67 fragmentation grenade.

Grenades from the same lot were used in a Jan. 6 attack on the Televisa television station in Monterrey, which caused damage but no injuries, and during an Oct. 12 attack against the U.S. Consulate in Monterrey. The device at the consulate did not detonate.

Late on the night of Jan. 31, a Saturday, a man tossed a grenade into the El Booty Lounge in Pharr, Texas. Three off-duty Texas police officers were there, though authorities would not say whether they were the target. The explosive, which did not detonate, was traced to the Monterrey warehouse.

Traffickers using M203 40-millimeter grenade launchers last year attacked and killed eight Mexican federal police officers in Culiacan, the capital of Sinaloa state. In the northern border city of Nogales, the Sonora state police commander was killed Nov. 2 in an ambush by purported traffickers firing AK-47s and lobbing grenades. He had been returning from a meeting with U.S. authorities in Arizona to discuss gun smuggling.

In the western state of Durango, three people, including a 3-year-old child, were killed in a grenade attack in January.

The firepower has gone beyond grenades. Armed with light antitank weapons, would-be assassins went after the nation's top counternarcotics prosecutor in December 2007. The assailants were intercepted before they reached Jose Luis Santiago Vasconcelos, who was not hurt. The weapons seized were linked to the notorious Sinaloa cartel.

"They were betting on being able to escalate with a spectacular strike precisely to terrify society," Santiago Vasconcelos said at the time. (He was killed in November in a plane crash.)

Beyond the weaponry, drug gangs for several years have demonstrated the ability to form squads and employ military tactics, including the use of assault rifles, hand grenades, grenade launchers and fully automatic weapons to pin down army forces. This has enabled them to attack army patrols frontally, as they did with lethal results Feb. 7 in the central state of Zacatecas, killing one sergeant and critically wounding a colonel.

"At this stage, the drug cartels are using basic infantry weaponry to counter government forces," a U.S. government official in Mexico said. "Encountering criminals with this kind of weaponry is a horse of a different color," the official said.

"It's not your typical patrol stop, where someone pulls a gun. This has all the makings of an infantry squad, or guerrilla fighting."

The fear of guerrilla warfare was compounded in February when 270 pounds of dynamite and several hundred electric detonators were stolen from a U.S. firm in the state of Durango. On Valentine's Day, about 20 masked gunmen, led by a heavyset man wearing gold rings and chains, stormed the warehouse of a subsidiary of Austin Powder Co., an industrial explosives manufacturer, according to official accounts. They overpowered guards and emptied the warehouse. Two similar thefts were reported within four days in the same area.

Although the Mexican army recovered most of the dynamite, the incident augurs an even bloodier trend, officials said.

"There is only one reason to have bulk explosives," said Thomas G. Mangan, spokesman in Phoenix for the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. "An improvised explosive device. A car bomb."

In addition to grenades, high-powered guns such as the .50-caliber Barrett sniper rifle have become a weapon of choice in narcotics traffickers' arsenals, Mangan said. Unlike grenades and antitank weapons, the .50-caliber guns can be obtained by ordinary citizens in the U.S. and smuggled easily into Mexico, like the tons of assault rifles and automatic pistols.

Mexican law enforcement, such as the police in Zihuatanejo, is grossly outgunned. Officers have protested, seeking better protective gear, weaponry and pay.

Shortly after the Zihuatanejo attacks, police officers staged a brief work stoppage outside their headquarters, where scars from the grenade attack were still visible. One of the blasts left a cereal bowl-shaped divot in the stone pavement and pockmarks on the front of the police building. It went off 100 feet from the nearest street, prompting some officers to suspect that the assailants employed a grenade launcher.

Police have piled sandbags 4 feet high around the compound and security is tight. Commanders have bought 10 bulletproof vests, but say they need at least 280 to equip the city's 343 officers.

The police commander, Pablo Rodriguez, said his officers are terrified. They are armed with semiautomatic .223-caliber rifles made in Italy, Germany and Mexico. The rifles, with folding stocks, are snazzy, but they are no match for the weapons being stockpiled by the drug cartels.

"They are good weapons, but to counteract the types of weapons they're using against us, they're not equal," Rodriguez said.

His officers know they don't stand a chance. Not five days after the highway attack that blew up the police truck, Rodriguez had jobs to fill. Twenty-two of his cops had abruptly quit.
_____

ken.ellingwood@latimes.com

wilkinson@latimes.com


==============================================================


Guatemalan police raid hitman training camp (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/6346734.html)



By JUAN CARLOS LLORCA
The Associated Press, via The Houston Chronicle
March 27, 2009


GUATEMALA CITY — A hitman training camp for Mexico's infamous Gulf cartel was found in northern Guatemala, along with 500 grenades, police said Friday.

In a news conference, police director Marlene Blanco said officials also seized six rifles, three motorcycles and several boxes of ammunition during Thursday's operation.

People at the site fled before authorities arrived because they "heard the noise of the helicopters" used in the raid, said Nery Morales, a spokesman for Guatemala's Interior Ministry.

"We searched the area, but didn't find anything," he said.

Mexican drug cartels often use grenades in attacks, and many of the weapons are believed to be coming from Central America. But Morales said the grenades found at the camp originated in Mexico. He gave no details.

Blanco said the camp was located on a farm near the border with Mexico. Officials believe more than three dozen recruits were being taught how to ride motorcycles and fire at targets in moving cars.

Morales said intelligence sources told the authorities that the young men at the camp were recruited in rural areas of northern Guatemala.

Blanco said the hitmen were among those carrying out nearly daily attacks on Guatemalan buses in which the driver is often killed. The government has claimed the attacks are a response to a nationwide crackdown on the drug trade.

Blanco also alleged that the camp was used by the Gulf cartel's ruthless Zeta hitmen. But she offered no supporting details.

Morales said the Gulf cartel may be expanding its operations in Guatemala "because of the pressure they are feeling due to a crackdown in Mexico."

Mexico has sent soldiers and federal police to drug strongholds across the nation.

The Gulf cartel has long been believed to be operating in Guatemala. President Alvaro Colom says 50 Zeta hitmen are in Guatemala, and more than 20 are behind bars.

[Geezah]

They ignored those pieces the first time around, and as it does not agree with what they want to believe they will conviently ignore it again.

[Airgun_Hunter]

Um ok? And those come from where exactly?

The US or from Central America one of the most corrupt and crime ridden region on earth, or are you even denying that?

Is 100% FREE of corruption I guess. woot

No corruption at ANY level?

As Felix and Dragunov already said, the standard MExican Army rifle is the G-3, the M16/variants are in sue too but in limited numbers and in specialized units.

Yeah.. there's desertion in the Mexican Army Ranks.. But I doubt a soldier would desert while on patrol with his weapon and full gear. When they desert is when they're in home leave, and never report back to their respective bases.

I don't think the army would be with it's arms crossed watching "100,000" rofl deserters with full gear.

The U.S. has the most sophisticated technology guarding it's southern border.. and still can't get endless supplies of drugs delivered to the endless junkies .

It's not that the U.S.A. is the bad guy in the movie.. because it isn't.

In this scenario EVERYBODY is guilty.
The USA for it's insatiable thirst for drugs, as well as the other countries for producing the drugs demanded by the US consumers.

Instead of throwing mud between back and forth we should work together because it's a common problem affecting all of our beloved nations.

Just my humble opinion guys p-)

[Geezah]

How can we watch the border when you people don't give us any support to protect it. Instead you have your bloody military aiding criminals to get across.

I'm still in favour of a complete lockdown, lay mines and put an army of Elmer Fudds on the border.

[Airgun_Hunter]

About sometime someone actually went after this bogus statistic.


Now Fox News has suddenly become a reliable source for information eh? woot

Also..

I've seen here that when any news source makes "convenient" news it's quoted for truth.

When it doesn't fit your agenda then it's rejected and marked as Bravo Sierra.

Such as... Fox news

[Airgun_Hunter]

How can we watch the border when you people don't give us any support to protect it. Instead you have your bloody military aiding criminals to get across.

I'm still in favour of a complete lockdown, lay mines and put an army of Elmer Fudds on the border.

LOL... Aaahhh good 'ole excuses...

EDIT:
So your failure to secure your borders it's now the Mexican Army's fault.... :)
AND.... your solution you propose is the same you despised not long ago (Berlin rings a bell?)
Communism was a far greater threat to the U.S. than Immigration, and guess what? your President is always accused of being a communist (just read the forums).. what an irony.

Hey.. it's your territory, you can build what ever you want. But after building a 100' wall with barbed wire, mines, ****y traps, guard towers with machine guns, flak towers, Armed UAV's and such and still having your country flooded with drugs will be priceless.

As Felix I also live in a Border town (south of beautiful San Diego)

And what you say... Is just wrong.

Come live here and after a few days you won't be talking such nonsense about the Mexican Army.

They in fact are putting their foot against narco piojosos rotten throat. Believe me my friend.

[hsh2]

Is 100% FREE of corruption I guess. woot

No corruption at ANY level?

p-)

What exactly are you trying to tell me?

[Airgun_Hunter]

What exactly are you trying to tell me?

That you guys always blame everyone else of having corrupt governments.

BUT I guess the USA is 100% corruption free in all it's government or civilian levels.

[SulpitusDesiderius]

Does anyone remember the story last week when the US marshal was found dead. He fled to Mexico when he was arrested and charged for guess what? Illegal gun sales seized by the ATF to cartels. If guns come from America, it come from people like him.

Put the USMC on the border, put predators over head, helicopter gunships on standby, and a Specter gunship as a crowd pleaser. This cartel crap will be over in days.

[Airgun_Hunter]

Does anyone remember the story last week when the US marshal was found dead. He fled to Mexico when he was arrested and charged for guess what? Illegal gun sales seized by the ATF to cartels. If guns come from America, it come from people like him.

Put the USMC on the border, put predators over head, helicopter gunships on standby, and a Specter gunship as a crowd pleaser. This cartel crap will be over in days.

OR...

You could just STOP buying drugs. woot

EDIT:

If guns come from America, it come from people like him.

Of course my friend it's from scum like him. NOT from legal gun owners.

And you think that guy is the ONLY one doing that in the USA? Well... Think again!!

[Felix U. Gómez]

Um ok? And those come from where exactly?

The US or from Central America one of the most corrupt and crime ridden region on earth, or are you even denying that?

According to the head of the ATF and to your government's chief diplomat, from your country. I didn't make that up, nor did the government of any of those corrupt countries from Central America. Are your government officials not worthy of trust, or only when they concur with your train of thought? So far, all that you guys through out there is pure speculation, not much more.

[Felix U. Gómez]

What exactly are you trying to tell me?

He's saying that you are implying that the corruption is only south of the border, that there is no way that Barrets and AK's can from from your country.

[Sinaloense]

"But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes.
In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S."

How can you affirm that a gun could not be traced to the U.S. if you never tried tracing it? Besides, in a great many cases the serial numbers of guns are filed to avoid tracing.

It's called, "splitting hairs."

[Sinaloense]

So I guess all those gun shops along the border are just there for looks?

[Felix U. Gómez]

They ignored those pieces the first time around, and as it does not agree with what they want to believe they will conviently ignore it again.

It's funny, but only the parts of the article that support your views are taken seriously by you.

[Lazuris]

it's your territory, you can build what ever you want. But after building a 100' wall with barbed wire, mines, ****y traps, guard towers with machine guns, flak towers, Armed UAV's and such and still having your country flooded with drugs will be priceless.


True drugs still might get in but those evil american guns won't be able to get out because ita America's fault you live in a lawless country. Save the mexicans build a fence.

[Felix U. Gómez]

How many weapons have been smuggled into Mexico from Central America is not known, and the military-grade munitions are still a small fraction of the larger arsenal in the hands of narcotics traffickers. Mexican officials continue to push Washington to stem the well-documented flow of conventional weapons from the United States, as Congress holds hearings on the role those smuggled guns play in arming Mexican drug cartels.


In addition to grenades, high-powered guns such as the .50-caliber Barrett sniper rifle have become a weapon of choice in narcotics traffickers' arsenals, Mangan said. Unlike grenades and antitank weapons, the .50-caliber guns can be obtained by ordinary citizens in the U.S. and smuggled easily into Mexico, like the tons of assault rifles and automatic pistols.


I guess you forgot to read this little part.

[hsh2]

According to the head of the ATF and to your government's chief diplomat, from your country. I didn't make that up, nor did the government of any of those corrupt countries from Central America. Are your government officials not worthy of trust, or only when they concur with your train of thought? So far, all that you guys through out there is pure speculation, not much more.

Sorry my government officials are certainly more trust worthy than yours haha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

5 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Flag_of_Switzerland.svg/17px-Flag_of_Switzerland.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Switzerland.svg) Switzerland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland)
72 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Flag_of_Mexico.svg/22px-Flag_of_Mexico.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Mexico.svg) Mexico (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico) Same level as Swaziland and Peru, congrats.

Felix you do realise that there is the so called ATF which is fiercely anti gun, and the current administration are Democrats. These people have tried banning anything that shoots a bullet for decades now with numerous bogus arguments over they yrs. "Assault weapon", "Cop killer bullets" etc.

Would you honestly expect such a select group of people to say anything in order NOT to restrict firearms ownership?


He's saying that you are implying that the corruption is only south of the border, that there is no way that Barrets and AK's can from from your country.

OK so let's count 2 and 2 together.
-You have a country which has a high number of shooters/gun owners/hunters and relatively liberal gun laws (far more severe than our gun laws but ok). Where you cannot get anything full auto (from a closed market I might add) unless you pass severe scrutiny, pay a tax etc. Getting live explosives is possible in theory but near impossible for the average joe.

-You have another country which is notorious for its criminality corruption and lawlessness,is a mjaor drug producer and transit, is one the CIA watchlist of "failed states", borders Belize and a few other "paradises" etc.

Now I ask you: where do those weapons come from in all likelihood. No one said that its impossible that a few weapons came/come from the US, but where do their weapons come from primarily in all LIKELIHOOD?

Furthermore: what's your opinion of Mexico? Patriotic feelings aside, do you deny that you're not exactly an exemplar country? Or do you honestly think that you're innocent as lambs and should be making counter accusations against other countries?

[LineDoggie]

Two excellent points Dragunov. Do you think that you could provide us with some pictures of captured narco arsenals so that everyone can see how many Mexican Army standard issue HK G-3's they are recovering from the cartels? Not Mexican Army, but I have seen in these very threads about this situation Mexican Police forces in fron of a Cache all with M4 Carbines at the Low Ready

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/MEXICAN.jpg

[Ought Six]

el u:
"You could just STOP buying drugs. woot "Of course, Mexicans hold the moral high ground to talk down to Americans on this issue, because as we all know, Mexican citizens never, ever buy, use or sell drugs.
rofl

[CMNot]

Yay someone mentioned the ATF...elite of the elite, heard they do a mean line in bonfires..


Put the USMC on the border, put predators over head, helicopter gunships on standby, and a Specter gunship as a crowd pleaser. This cartel crap will be over in days.

Yep, just like it had the same effect with that bunch in the desert :roll:

Linedoggie, is that weaponry on the table seized weaponry?

[LineDoggie]

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/afi.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/m4.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/mexpd.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/mex.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/mexicanfedpolizei.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/swat.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/mpnetmexarmythread.jpg

It took all of 5 minutes on google to find these. Funny I see M16 Series, M4, M203 all in use by the Mexican Government. The Troops in the water Picture comes from Right here on the Mexican Military Photos thread.

In the movie the Outlaw Josie Wales he had a Saying

Dont piss down my neck and tell me it's Raining

Dont tell us the M16, AR15, M4 isnt used by the Mexican Government

[Airgun_Hunter]

It took all of 5 minutes on google to find these. Funny I see M16 Series, M4, M203 all in use by the Mexican Government. The Troops in the water Picture comes from Right here on the Mexican Military Photos thread.

In the movie the Outlaw Josie Wales he had a Saying

Dont piss down my neck and tell me it's Raining

Dont tell us the M16, AR15, M4 isnt used by the Mexican Government

We have never said that Mexican Government law enforcement agencies don't use M16 and it's variants.

In the case of the Army it's in limited special units.

And in the case of civilian law enforcement's it's not like they have warehouses full of guns and when one simply get's "lost" they go to the warehouse to issue a new M4 to the officer that "lost it" rofl
Those guns are under strict supervision and no law enforcement agency can get ANY weapon without the Army's approval.

Oh

And I can Google too and can find a lot more pics of AK47's. Barret rifles, mini guns, .50 cal machine guns and other FULLY AUTOMATIC weapons in U.S.A. civilian hands. rofl

[Geezah]

Oh

And I can Google too and can find a lot more pics of AK47's. Barret rifles, mini guns, .50 cal machine guns and other FULLY AUTOMATIC weapons in U.S.A. civilian hands. rofl


And what does that tell you?

[Dan2004]

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/afi.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/m4.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/mexpd.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/mex.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/mexicanfedpolizei.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/swat.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/mpnetmexarmythread.jpg

It took all of 5 minutes on google to find these. Funny I see M16 Series, M4, M203 all in use by the Mexican Government. The Troops in the water Picture comes from Right here on the Mexican Military Photos thread.

In the movie the Outlaw Josie Wales he had a Saying

Dont piss down my neck and tell me it's Raining

Dont tell us the M16, AR15, M4 isnt used by the Mexican Government


http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/20080916195109enlus0149079012215946.jpg

Hmmm....

[LineDoggie]

Some more usage, dont know the units involved. All from the Photo thread right here on MP.net

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/ati.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/l2294340rj1.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/60912058vg5.jpg

[LineDoggie]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/20080916195109enlus0149079012215946.jpg

Hmmm....
Those damned Boston Irish.........

[Airgun_Hunter]

And what does that tell you?

That finding pictures in Google doesn't prove a darned thing. :)

[Geezah]

Wait for it....................you will shortly be told by our Mexican Brethren that we do not know what we are looking at and just by the nature of being Gringo's we are clueless.

Man, I would love to work for the INS/ICE right about now, there are plenty of plants round here that need busted........

[Airgun_Hunter]

Some more usage, dont know the units involved. All from the Photo thread right here on MP.net

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/ati.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/l2294340rj1.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/60912058vg5.jpg

First pic are probably Marines not the Army.

Second is particularly interesting because you can see an army officer inspecting weapons from civilian law enforcement (police)
EDIT: BTW.. I saw that exact Army Officer yelling the shat out of a Mexican Customs Agent not long ago because I got "detained" for crossing with an airgun back into Mexico from the U.S.A. I was coming back from a competition in North San Diego :) and I was lucky to see the Army officer and asked him if I was doing anything illegal for bringing back an airgun with me.

Trust me my friend. We Mexicans have full faith in our army which is doing a damned fine job taking on the narco piojoso scum.

Third pic... special units. Dunno which ones though

I've seen how Army keeps a close eye on civilian law enforcement issued weapons such as M4's and even handguns. They keep strict control over ALL government civilian issued weapons.

As I said before a police/federal/state officer can't just "loose" an M4 and have it replaced the next day no questions asked. p-)

[Airgun_Hunter]

Wait for it....................you will shortly be told by our Mexican Brethren that we do not know what we are looking at and just by the nature of being Gringo's we are clueless.

Man, I would love to work for the INS/ICE right about now, there are plenty of plants round here that need busted........

Let me help you my friend. p-)

Nothing can stop you now. woot

http://www.ice.gov/careers/

[deagle]

how hard is it to scratch off a US-origin serial number ? just b/c its not traced and confirmed its from our side of the border, doesn't mean it didn't come from there. its probably not 90% nor 17 %, but somewhere in the middle.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Something you will find with the NRA that you will not find with the anti-gun organisations, is they(the NRA) stick to facts. They do not fabricate information to push their agenda.

Lolz.............

[SilentType]

It is a LIE.

FOX OWNED THIS STORY.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_35RtuXXjg

Breaks down like this:

29,000 firearms were recovered from Mexican Crime Scenes in 2007 and 2008.

Of those only 11,000 were submitted for E-Trace.

Out of those that were put through E-Trace only 6,000 were traceable.

Out of those that were traceable only 5,000 were from the United States (no idea whether they came through by sales to the Mexican Government or illegally).

What's funny is these numbers come from the Mexican Attorney General.

What's down right ironic is that the BATFE has stated the truth, but the Politicians apparently didn't listen carefully or were hearing what they wanted to hear. What a shocker huh?

Of the firearms that were recovered only 17% can be confirmed as from the United States. The 90% was taken out of context and the way that it has been used by politicians is an out right lie. The BATFE stated what is only common sense that 90% of the weapons they have seized within the U.S. they believed were heading for Mexico were from the U.S. and actually I'm shocked it's that low. Not that 90% of the weapons being used in Mexico come from the U.S. so the BATFE never once said that. The politicians twisted their words or I suspect simply were just hearing what they wanted to hear.

I find it hard to believe that of the 17% that were traceable to the U.S. that ALL of them were from illegal sales made within the U.S. (straw purchasers, crooked FFL's, whatever). I would have to imagine that of that 17% some of them were legit sales to Mexican military and police that ended up on the black market.

The important thing here is the large amount of firearms that were not even traceable. I'll give you a few guesses at where those firearms were coming out of.

Sorry gun grabbers, but just like in Heller with your B.S. "The Second is about the National Guard" argument you have again been owned. Hard to fight facts. We can only hope that now that the truth is known that those newspapers like the New York Times have the integrity to print the truth after taking these politicians' words as facts without doing their own homework.

[Geezah]

@Min

Oh don't you start.................you do know there is a big rubber market down there in Mexico????

[Hollis]

Lolz.............


Easy to chuckle if all you know of the NRA is from "other" sources.

So I can Lolz.........too, but not because of the NRA.

[Geezah]

Booyah...........83% of arms do not originate from the US.

I doubt they will get it even now................

[LineDoggie]

M4/M16/AR-15 Serial Numbers are located on the Lower Reciever Magazine Well. Reciever is T6 Alumnium, removing serial numbers could be done easily enough.

Now if the captured Weapons are Marked with Safe, Semi, "Burst" or "Auto" on the selector area, then they have to be some Governments contract weapon, as only 2 NFA weapons have been used in a Crime IIRC.

Historically the El Salvodorans Atlacatl Bn recovered FN FALS 50.63 with a Circle cut out on the Mag Wells and serials intact. a Quick Confab with Herstal confirmed Origin as Cuban Weapons, aka Fail on FAR's part.



Turned out to be Cuban Issue FAL's, the circle was the Cuban coat of arms former spot.

[SilentType]

how hard is it to scratch off a US-origin serial number ? just b/c its not traced and confirmed its from our side of the border, doesn't mean it didn't come from there. its probably not 90% nor 17 %, but somewhere in the middle.

You can't pass something off as facts based on assumptions.

You should not propose to restrict Constitutional Freedoms based on false statements.

They lied. Attorney General Eric Holder, Secretary Clinton they lied. That simple.

Senator Kerry they lied.

Maybe not an intentional lie, but they were spreading around a false statement of fact.

So back to the drawing board on your argument gun grabbers.

[Chulo]

The article quotes the spokesman for the NRA and also an interview from FOX News. Even in Mexico we know about "Fox News" and how "fair and balanced" those guys are.:roll:LOL, im sure all your news agencies are unbiased and have no issues.

[SilentType]

M4/M16/AR-15 Serial Numbers are located on the Lower Reciever Magazine Well. Reciever is T6 Alumnium, removing serial numbers could be done easily enough.

Now if the captured Weapons are Marked with Safe, Semi, "Burst" or "Auto" on the selector area, then they have to be some Governments contract weapon, as only 2 NFA weapons have been used in a Crime IIRC.

Historically the El Salvodorans Atlacatl Bn recovered FN FALS 50.63 with a Circle cut out on the Mag Wells and serials intact. a Quick Confab with Herstal confirmed Origin as Cuban Weapons, aka Fail on FAR's part.



Turned out to be Cuban Issue FAL's, the circle was the Cuban coat of arms former spot.

Haha, I'm sorry do you have facts to back up these statements or are you making up stuff.

Sure, the serial numbers have all been removed. That's it.

Sure, they were all semi-auto only firearms. Ok.

Anymore claims you want to put forward without ANY evidence?

More floating ideas out and making damning statements without evidence. Give it up. Try a new strategy called finding the truth.

[SilentType]

LOL, im sure all your news agencies are unbiased and have no issues.

Those numbers come from the Mexican Attorney General. Is he biased in helping preserve the Second Amendment here in the United States of America?

HAHA, give it up you've been beaten.

Watch the above video folks Fox News found the quote from BATFE where this 90% figure was being pulled from.

At NO time did BATFE EVER state that 90% of the guns recovered from Mexican crime scenes are from the United States. At no time did the BATFE say that 90% of the guns in Mexico are from the U.S. and are you going to say that the BATFE is biased here?

This argument is toast. I mean stick a fork in it. You folks with your "all the guns are coming from the U.S. argument" are going to have to actually look for REAL evidence instead of tossing out made up percentages.

Facts are facts. Truth is Truth.

You folks eat up the crap from Politicians with an agenda without even looking at what the Federal Agencies or the Mexican Government was really saying. I'll probably get some "COC violation" for this, but I'm not budging on this one.

[Chulo]

Those numbers come from the Mexican Attorney General. Is he biased in helping preserve the Second Amendment here in the United States of America?

HAHA, give it up you've been beaten.

Watch the above video folks Fox News found the quote from BATFE where this 90% figure was being pulled from.

At NO time did BATFE EVER state that 90% of the guns recovered from Mexican crime scenes are from the United States. At no time did the BATFE say that 90% of the guns in Mexico are from the U.S. and are you going to say that the BATFE is biased here?

This argument is toast. I mean stick a fork in it. You folks with your "all the guns are coming from the U.S. argument" are going to have to actually look for REAL evidence instead of tossing out made up percentages.

Facts are facts. Truth is Truth.

You folks eat up the crap from Politicians with an agenda without even looking at what the Federal Agencies or the Mexican Government was really saying. I'll probably get some "COC violation" for this, but I'm not budging on this one.
eh.. maybe you should read my quote in context before you start to fire off your speech

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

@Min

Oh don't you start.................you do know there is a big rubber market down there in Mexico????


Easy to chuckle if all you know of the NRA is from "other" sources.

So I can Lolz.........too, but not because of the NRA.

I actually support the US on this issue. At the end of the day it's the responsibility of the Mexican government to ensure the internal security of it's citizens. Now whilst we all agree that countries need to be co-operative with one another to stamp out cross border criminal activity to blame the US gun policy for the crime in Mexico is pretty dam stupid and is simply passing the buck at Mexico's own ineptitude.

You all know where I stand on the issue of gun control hence why I don't bother with it anymore. I'm generally pro gun but I do believe that controls need to be in place.

Don't get me wrong. The NRA does do a bloody good job at teaching people gun safety, supporting small business and the like. However like all facts and stats. They can all be used to support an argument. Like if numbers don't agree with what you are saying you just leave them out and use the ones that do instead of looking at the bigger picture.

Have a nice day

[LineDoggie]

Haha, I'm sorry do you have facts to back up these statements or are you making up stuff.

Sure, the serial numbers have all been removed. That's it.

Sure, they were all semi-auto only firearms. Ok.

Anymore claims you want to put forward without ANY evidence?

More floating ideas out and making damning statements without evidence. Give it up. Try a new strategy called finding the truth.
Sure,

AR-15, M16, M4 reciever material:
http://www.bushmaster.com/products.asp?cat=5

Take note of this :To assemble this machined 7075 T6 Aluminum Forging

As to the Cuban FN FAL's:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=130605

http://www.heritage.org/Research/LatinAmerica/bg137.cfm
http://archive.nacla.org/Summaries/V15I3P4-1.htm
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y01/may01/01e7.htm

Dremel tool with grinder bit + Aluminum, sorts self explanatory

[Andromeda]

Fox news is a POS. Until I see this in another source I'm not buying it.

[LineDoggie]

Fox news is a POS. Until I see this in another source I'm not buying it. Fox said Obama won the election, do you believe that?

Or just Knee Jerking?

[Chulo]

Fox news is a POS. Until I see this in another source I'm not buying it.
Only if CNN told you so im sure

[Felix U. Gómez]

el u:Of course, Mexicans hold the moral high ground to talk down to Americans on this issue, because as we all know, Mexican citizens never, ever buy, use or sell drugs.
rofl

I don't know, who would be the most drug addicted country between you or us? Why don't we see what my government has to say and, nope, nope, you wouldn't believe that would you? Let's just see what your government has to say. Let's hear what the CIA has to say about the United States and its narcotics' situation:

"world's largest consumer of cocaine (shipped from Colombia through Mexico and the Caribbean), Colombian heroin, and Mexican heroin and marijuana; major consumer of ecstasy and Mexican methamphetamine; minor consumer of high-quality Southeast Asian heroin; illicit producer of cannabis, marijuana, depressants, stimulants, hallucinogens, and methamphetamine; money-laundering center" This page was last updated on 19 March 2009

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html



Wow! Who would have guessed? The CIA says that the U.S.A. is the world's largest consumer of:
cocaine
Colombian heroin
Mexican heroin
Mexican marijuana (I would add American marijuana)

Major consumer of:
ecstasy (from where?)
Mexican Methanphetamine



Minor consumer of:
high-quality Southeast Asian heroin



Illicit Producer of:
cannabis
marijuana
depressants
stimulants
hallucinogens
methanphetamine



The U.S. is also a:
Money laundering center



Nope, I think you guys have us beat on the drug use issue. Let me ask you a question, why do you think that the hardest battles between the cartels are for the towns and cities on the U.S.-Mexico border? Could it be because they want access to the largest drug market in the world?

[Chulo]

I don't know, who would be the most drug addicted country between you or us? Why don't we see what my government has to say and, nope, nope, you wouldn't believe that would you? Let's just see what your government has to say. Let's hear what the CIA has to say about the United States and its narcotics' situation:

"world's largest consumer of cocaine (shipped from Colombia through Mexico and the Caribbean), Colombian heroin, and Mexican heroin and marijuana; major consumer of ecstasy and Mexican methamphetamine; minor consumer of high-quality Southeast Asian heroin; illicit producer of cannabis, marijuana, depressants, stimulants, hallucinogens, and methamphetamine; money-laundering center" This page was last updated on 19 March 2009

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html



Wow! Who would have guessed? The CIA says that the U.S.A. is the world's largest consumer of:
cocaine
Colombian heroin
Mexican heroin
Mexican marijuana (I would add American marijuana)

Major consumer of:
ecstasy (from where?)
Mexican Methanphetamine



Minor consumer of:
high-quality Southeast Asian heroin



Illicit Producer of:
cannabis
marijuana
depressants
stimulants
hallucinogens
methanphetamine



The U.S. is also a:
Money laundering center



Nope, I think you guys have us beat on the drug use issue. Let me ask you a question, why do you think that the hardest battles between the cartels are for the towns and cities on the U.S.-Mexico border? Could it be because they want access to the largest drug market in the world?
Its like a pimp saying its the john's fault.

lets move on past the blame game. The question is, "where do most of the weapons Mexican druglords use come from?"

[SilentType]

Its like a pimp saying its the john's fault.

lets move on past the blame game. The question is, "where do most of the weapons Mexican druglords use come from?"

No.

The question is why does Mexico refuse to take steps to improve it's economy? Why does Mexico continue to have socialist state run industries like their oil industry? Why hasn't Mexico adopted a corporate culture? Why does Mexico have a vast amount of natural resources and people with an incredible work ethic and still record poverty?

In the end it doesn't matter where the firearms come from regarding the violence, because you're NEVER going to be able to deny criminals who smuggle tons of illegal contraband across international borders for a living from having firearms. If they don't get them from X they get them from Y.

It's like trying to stop an insurgency by just killing bad guys. If that's your strategy you'll be in a war of attrition and that is what is going on in Mexico right now is that they are in a war of attrition. There will NEVER be a shortage of recruits for the drug cartels and as they kill one leader another will pop-up in his place.

If Mexico is to EVER have lasting stability they to end the socialism that has slowed their economic growth or prevented it all together and been responsible for placing too much power into the hands of government officials who become corrupt.

Now, Mexico is not special in this respect, but they are worse off than many. We see in the United States of America when too much power is taken from the people and placed into the hands of government we to have corruption.

Time to FIX problems. Not come up with "feel good" measures like gun bans or tossing more money at the problem for the short term.

[Ought Six]

FUG:
"I don't know, who would be the most drug addicted country between you or us?"One-fifth of all the coke that is smuggled into Mexico stays there for local consumption. Considering that Mexico has a third of our population and about a sixth our average household income, you guy still manage to have an extremely serious drug problem, and it is rapidly getting worse. Pot -- kettle -- black.... You do not have the moral high ground here. You do not do any better a job dealing with your drug problem than we do.

Mexico struggles with soaring drug addiction rate (http://www.scrippsnews.com/node/39379)

[SilentType]

Let me ask you folks this:

How many think that the Mexican Criminal Organizations that control the border routes are always paid in cash for the "toll tax" they charge for drugs to be shipped into the USA through their routes?

They are paid not only in money, but sometimes with firearms or drugs they themselves receive.

How many tons of drugs like Heroin are being brought into Mexican ports?

The U.S. barely inspects what? 30% Maybe..Tops of our shipping containers that come into this country. Now if the United States of America can't inspect all the shipping containers who thinks that the Mexicans ever could inspect all of theirs any time soon?

Central America was a dumping ground for small arms during the Cold War. Heck many folks here in the USA are very familiar with "surplus Guatemalan 5.56NATO ammo" that can be purchased cheap in bulk for target shooting. If it's cheap for us to purchase Guatemalan ammo shipped legally through U.S. Customs and all the red tape and expense that entails who thinks the Mexican Drug Cartels are having any trouble with prices in buying surplus rifles from there?

Why would you drive up to the United States of America and pay through the nose for firearms when you can get cheaper firearms on the black market? If a Mexican LEO or Military official turns around and sell arms the Mexican tax payers paid for it's all profit to him. The folks shipping in tons of heroin from overseas have AK's laying around they'll sell in bulk prices.

This 90% of all rifles in Mexico are from the U.S. is a proven fiction. It was a fiction from the start, because it flew in the face of history and common sense business practices.

We're talking about an international drug trade. INTERNATIONAL. This isn't just Mexico and the U.S. here this is the whole world. So enough with the blame America for everything B.S. crap. There is MORE than enough blame to go around the globe over.

[Will Clark]

According to the head of the ATF and to your government's chief diplomat, from your country. I didn't make that up, nor did the government of any of those corrupt countries from Central America. Are your government officials not worthy of trust, or only when they concur with your train of thought? So far, all that you guys through out there is pure speculation, not much more.

Um no, you misconstrued what the ATF said so that it fit your view as I pointed out in another thread before this article came out. Then the ATF's spokesman in this article clarified the comment for us and it contradicted what you want to believe so you disregard it. That's called hypocrisy.

[Dragunov]

''Daddy buy me a Kalashnikov'' ( Documentary of guns in the USA) by CNN in Spanish

Here you can see machineguns, and what looks like explosives used by US citizens. Looks a lot as to what the cartels are using against army and federal police.

http://www.youtube.com/v/SgBrPjOgWbM

[LineDoggie]

Again for the seriously obtuse here. You cant just walk into any Gunstore in the USA, drop some Greenbacks on the Counter and walk away with a Thompson Submachinegun

If you could I would have 50 of them.

Take the time to research what it takes to Purchase and Possess Full Automatic Firearms before being ignorant and trying to compare the Knob Creek Shoot of LICENCED Machingun Owners with Narcos in Mexico

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/index.htm

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m


Since 1934 when the National Firearms Act came into Being 2 NFA frearms have been used in a Crime. 2 out of 240,000 registered firearms.

[Will Clark]

Here you can see machineguns, and what looks like explosives used by US citizens. Looks a lot as to what the cartels are using against army and federal police.


The explosives are probably tannerite, maybe gasoline as well : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannerite

I doubt cartels are using tannerite to attack police...

And if you can't understand why machine guns like that are not making their way to Mexico then you have a lot to learn about this subject. There is a fixed supply of automatic firearms in the United States, we can't purchase any made after 1986. This means that the demand for them drives the prices through the roof. Check out the machine gun price guide.

http://machinegunpriceguide.com/html/price_guides.html
M16A2 - $19,000
AK-47 - $16,000
M-60 - $32,000

Are they going to spend two million dollars to buy 100 very rare M16's from the United States? Or are they gonna pay 100k and get them from somewhere else?

Second point, automatic firearms are very heavily regulated. Anyone who owns one here is subject to inspection by the ATF whenever they want, and it's registered in their name. If they sell it to some Mexican gun runner they'd risk the guy being caught with it and it leading back to them.

They are not buying machine guns from civilians in the US, maybe semi-automatic rifles, but anything more is just delusional.

[Cstafford]

''Daddy buy me a Kalashnikov'' ( Documentary of guns in the USA) by CNN in Spanish

Here you can see machineguns, and what looks like explosives used by US citizens. Looks a lot as to what the cartels are using against army and federal police.

more like, here you can see people shooting on a range, renting guns and shooting them, not being able to own them. you need a special "permit" to buy fully automatic guns in the U.S. you cant just walk into walmart all willy nilly and **** and pick out the flavor of the month AK-47. Im sure you have been told that.

[MJC9678]

Hold on here! When this issue of the 90% and "US automatic weapons" originally came up on this site about 2 weeks ago, I called BS on the ATF statistic. I was then flamed for about 2-3 pages by the usual suspects because I dared to question law enforcement. For some reason I don't see any of those guys in all 6 pages of comments here?

[hsh2]

''Daddy buy me a Kalashnikov'' ( Documentary of guns in the USA) by CNN in Spanish

Here you can see machineguns, and what looks like explosives used by US citizens. Looks a lot as to what the cartels are using against army and federal police.

http://www.youtube.com/v/SgBrPjOgWbM

What you and your Mexican buddies fail to understand is that you CANNOT walk into a gunstore and buy a machine gun or even explosives.

The machine gun market is CLOSED CLOSED CLOSED due tue a machine gun ban in 1986. You cannot just take the FN catalog and say "Hmm that GPMG looks nice. I'd like one please" and they gun vendor hands it over to you, you pay and walk out the door with a new machine gun.

It simply doesn't work like that. American laws ARENT like that. They just arent.

To get a machine gun or a silencer or a short barreled rifle etc you need to fill and submit paperwork which puts you under scrutiny by the ATF, you need to pay a special tax, and you need to wait weeks or sometimes months.

If you are deep pocketed (ie you have cash) you can become a CLass 3 dealer of course this is accompanied with even more scrutiny and oversight. Then AND ONLY THEN can you get NEW machine guns/class 3 items BUT ONLY FOR DEMO PURPOSES. Example: you're a Class 3 dealer in Denver for example. You buy full auto M4 which you can use, tryout and fingerfvck yourself but you buy it under the premise of DEMOING to the local LEO...and even then you cannot just say I'd like 10 M4 for my demo purposes, let alone 100 or 1000 or 10000 which would be in the ordre de grandeur for criminal organizations. Or you could become a manufacturer which is accompanied with even more fuss, scrutiny and restrictions.

And again, the Class 3 market for PRIVATE CITIZENS who aren't class 3 dealers or anything is CLOSED, due to the 1986 machine gun ban. There is a very LIMITED amount of weapons available. Gathering so many machine guns as to outfit a drug cartel from there is simply numerically impossible!
Do you have any idea how goddamn expensive a class 3 item is nowadays? Do you? You wouldn't think that maybe those items are CHEAPER on our own nations black market or down south in Belize and co?

Outfitting a drug cartel with Class 3 items from the US would mean:
- buying 15+ yrs old weapons, which logically aren't new and have been used
- paying several thousand dollars for one. an old and used full auto rifle cost upwards of 2500 dollars these days. talk about economical. a machine gun (m60, gpmg etc) is far far more expensive.
- not being able to get sufficient quantities due to the nature of the market and the laws.
- submitting paperwork to the ATF and paying special taxes

Which drug lord with even half a brain would opt for such an option? Please tell me.


Btw: the clip you posted. You do realize that the people with those miniguns/machine guns/flamethrowers etc are almost all Class 3 dealers and/or Class 3 manufacturers and almost none are private citizens?


Dragunov do you understand what I've written here or did I just waste my time trying to talk to an irrational idiot?

[Chulo]

eh, idiots that dont understand the real facts and numbers and rather just have their prejudice and news media speak for them.

Gun ownership is possible in U.S but it is strict, not everyone has equal access to the different types of weapons. And of all the violent attacks in U.S less than 1% has been by a person that had legal ownership of the gun.

They dont know the facts or the reality, and rather just go off on something they dont know.

[OldCode]

Don't know the truth of the 90% claim, but it just re-appeared in our local (San Diego) Reader magazine (okay, not exactly a bastion of journalistic gravitas). I added the bold:

"Since December 1, 2006, when President Felipe Calderón took office, and April of 2008, more than 14,000 handguns and assault rifles, along with 863 hand grenades were seized by Mexican law enforcement. Both the government of Mexico and the U.S. Department of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) agree that at least 90 percent of them originated in the United States. The problem has become so serious that the ATF has launched a program it calls “Project Gunrunner.” The agency reported in a September 2008 “Fact Sheet” that it was “deploying its resources strategically on the Southwest Border to deny firearms, the ‘tools of the trade,’ to criminal organizations in Mexico and along the border, and to combat firearms-related violence affecting communities on both sides of the border.” Project Gunrunner was begun, said the ATF, “to stem the flow of firearms into Mexico, and thereby deprive the narcotics cartels of weapons.” Last year the ATF provided something called “eTrace technology” to nine U.S. consulates in Mexico, where seized weapons can now be traced back to their original point of sale."

Article here: http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2009/apr/01/mommy-why-are-they-shooting-us-again/

I would like to see the government papers/reports/research that support that 90% claim, rather than quotes without sources. I'd hate to see this unsubstantiated "fact" lead to repressive gun laws in the U.S. (more of them, I mean). And lumping the guns with the grenades is questionable - I've been trying to get some grenades for lake fishing and local gun joes say no way?

[Felix U. Gómez]

eh, idiots that dont understand the real facts and numbers and rather just have their prejudice and news media speak for them.

Gun ownership is possible in U.S but it is strict, not everyone has equal access to the different types of weapons. And of all the violent attacks in U.S less than 1% has been by a person that had legal ownership of the gun.

They dont know the facts or the reality, and rather just go off on something they dont know.

Well you guys can say mass and it won't change a thing. You can also continue to post articles with interviews of people who support your views, like the spokesman from the NRA, gun-nuts, and using unreliable sources like FOX News. We still won't believe you because unlike you we see reality in the streets of our cities and towns. We see the reality of how easy it is to procure weapons in your country and how anybody with the right amount of money can buy just about anything. We see the caches of weapons and equipment that our government captures from organized crime and we can't help but notice stuff like Barret snipper rifles (which I've seen in your gunstores and gunshows), U.S. army uniforms, bullet proof vests of better quality than what our troops use, kevlar helmets, and AK-47's similar to what we see in your gunshows (that can and are converted from semi to full-auto by skilled gunsmiths). You argue that "it is very difficult for your average citizen to obtain such wepons" but the truth is that you can obtain a semi-auto version of an AK just by having a clean record, by being a resident, and by being 18 years of age. You don't even have to register the weapon and your government won't even know you have it. Then, you can legally sell it to anyone that you want. You can even put it in the newspaper that you want to sell. The transaction will be only between you and them. So keep fabricating information, keep trying to find guilty parties in unlikely places, like Israel, but we still won't believe you because you guys have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo of gun ownership in your country.

[Dragunov]

They think we are against their right to having guns, which is absolutely false.

So Felix, I think we are done with this post mate. p-)

[Felix U. Gómez]

I would like to see the government papers/reports/research that support that 90% claim, rather than quotes without sources. I'd hate to see this unsubstantiated "fact" lead to repressive gun laws in the U.S. (more of them, I mean). And lumping the guns with the grenades is questionable - I've been trying to get some grenades for lake fishing and local gun joes say no way?

What about grenades from your military stocks? What is the possibility that members of your military could take a couple here and there that were destined for training purposes? This is just a question, not an accusation. Last year I remember in Ciudad Juárez a U.S. soldier was caught with an assault rifle in his car trunk, as well as several handguns, ammunition, and several knives. He argued that "he made a wrong turn" and that he didn't realize that he had entered Mexico (despite all the signs on the freeway and despite all the huge signs that say weapons aren't allowed in Mexico). The U.S. government exerted pressure and after a few weeks the guy was released. He had several gan tattos on his body, belonging to gangs that are know associates of drug cartels. Go figure.

[Shadowstorm]

It's not only gun stores, but gun shows, stolen guns, and guns bought off the "streets" that are smuggled through the border. However, it's not the AK-47's, AR-15/M-16 series rifles, Barrett M-82A1 or other .50 caliber rifles, but also newer guns which are getting popular like the Five Seven pistol, PS-90 ( a civilian venison of the FN-P90), FS-2000 (a civilian verison of the FN-2000 rifle), AR-57 and other newer guns that came into the market a few years ago.

[Felix U. Gómez]

They think we are against their right to having guns, which is absolutely false.

So Felix, I think we are done with this post mate. p-)

Yup amigo, not much more to say here. Have a great weekend guys!

[Chulo]

Well you guys can say mass and it won't change a thing. You can also continue to post articles with interviews of people who support your views, like the spokesman from the NRA, gun-nuts, and using unreliable sources like FOX News. We still won't believe you because unlike you we see reality in the streets of our cities and towns. We see the reality of how easy it is to procure weapons in your country and how anybody with the right amount of money can buy just about anything. We see the caches of weapons and equipment that our government captures from organized crime and we can't help but notice stuff like Barret snipper rifles (which I've seen in your gunstores and gunshows), U.S. army uniforms, bullet proof vests of better quality than what our troops use, kevlar helmets, and AK-47's similar to what we see in your gunshows (that can and are converted from semi to full-auto by skilled gunsmiths). You argue that "it is very difficult for your average citizen to obtain such wepons" but the truth is that you can obtain a semi-auto version of an AK just by having a clean record, by being a resident, and by being 18 years of age. You don't even have to register the weapon and your government won't even know you have it. Then, you can legally sell it to anyone that you want. You can even put it in the newspaper that you want to sell. The transaction will be only between you and them. So keep fabricating information, keep trying to find guilty parties in unlikely places, like Israel, but we still won't believe you because you guys have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo of gun ownership in your country.
You talk about biased sources, but seems to me like you have some very biased sources and you limit your information and disregard others.
So you can bla bla bla and think you are right, but i think the facts speak for itself

[hsh2]

They think we are against their right to having guns, which is absolutely false.

So Felix, I think we are done with this post mate. p-)

No, nobody thinks that you are against gun owners. Stop dodging and diverting. Just stop it.

Btw have you read what Linedoggie, Will Clark, SilentType and myself have posted on page nr6? Yes? What's your comment?

[Will Clark]

Well you guys can say mass and it won't change a thing. You can also continue to post articles with interviews of people who support your views, like the spokesman from the NRA, gun-nuts, and using unreliable sources like FOX News. We still won't believe you because unlike you we see reality in the streets of our cities and towns. We see the reality of how easy it is to procure weapons in your country and how anybody with the right amount of money can buy just about anything. We see the caches of weapons and equipment that our government captures from organized crime and we can't help but notice stuff like Barret snipper rifles (which I've seen in your gunstores and gunshows), U.S. army uniforms, bullet proof vests of better quality than what our troops use, kevlar helmets, and AK-47's similar to what we see in your gunshows (that can and are converted from semi to full-auto by skilled gunsmiths). You argue that "it is very difficult for your average citizen to obtain such wepons" but the truth is that you can obtain a semi-auto version of an AK just by having a clean record, by being a resident, and by being 18 years of age. You don't even have to register the weapon and your government won't even know you have it. Then, you can legally sell it to anyone that you want. You can even put it in the newspaper that you want to sell. The transaction will be only between you and them. So keep fabricating information, keep trying to find guilty parties in unlikely places, like Israel, but we still won't believe you because you guys have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo of gun ownership in your country.

Holy asscrackers, our source is the ATF, who's spokesman clarified that vague comment you've been relentlessly using to pin blame on us instead of your own country. An ATF spokesman on Fox News is still an ATF spokesman. So what's your position, that the ATF statement last year is irrefutable proof of your case, while the ATF statement the other day is drivel because it was reported on Fox News? You can continue ignoring posts that you can't dispute, but that doesn't mean you're somehow right when we inevitably clash on this in the future. It makes you a hypocrite, so instead of forming a conclusion and cherry picking information, why don't you answer questions and form an unbiased opinion.

what about grenades in the US military? do you have some evidence that they were sold to drug cartels? No? So why are you asking? Oh, because you need that to happen so you can shift blame onto someone else.

[hsh2]

Holy asscrackers, our source is the ATF, who's spokesman clarified that vague comment you've been relentlessly using to pin blame on us instead of your own country. An ATF spokesman on Fox News is still an ATF spokesman. So what's your position, that the ATF statement last year is irrefutable proof of your case, while the ATF statement the other day is drivel because it was reported on Fox News? You can continue ignoring posts that you can't dispute, but that doesn't mean you're somehow right when we inevitably clash on this in the future. It makes you a hypocrite, so instead of forming a conclusion and cherry picking information, why don't you answer questions and form an unbiased opinion.

what about grenades in the US military? do you have some evidence that they were sold to drug cartels? No? So why are you asking? Oh, because you need that to happen so you can shift blame onto someone else.

talking about grenades...


FACT: Grenades used in three attacks in Monterrey and Texas were linked to a single Monterrey, Mexico warehouse, packed with explosives and high-caliber guns, reportedly belonging to the Gulf cartel. Mexican authorities raided the warehouse in October and seized the cache, which contained South Korean-manufactured grenades similar to the American M67 fragmentation grenade. Grenades from the same lot were used in a Jan. 6, 2009 attack on the Televisa television station in Monterrey, which caused damage but no injuries, and during an Oct. 12 attack against the U.S. Consulate in Monterrey. The device at the consulate did not detonate. Late on the night of Jan. 31, 2009, a Saturday, a man tossed a grenade into the El Booty Lounge in Pharr, Texas. Three off-duty Texas police officers were there, though authorities would not say whether they were the target. The explosive, which did not detonate, was traced to the Monterrey warehouse. Link (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,229992.story?page=2)

So if the Mexican cartels can import South Korean grenades, grenades which are neither produced or available in the US, how far of a leap is it to believe they can also import guns from anywhere in the world?

Dragunov, Felix and co. guys get real, facts aren't on your side and neither is common sense.rofl

[Geezah]

Well you guys can say mass and it won't change a thing. You can also continue to post articles with interviews of people who support your views, like the spokesman from the NRA, gun-nuts, and using unreliable sources like FOX News.

You mean we can continue to post the truth, but you won't believe it because you have already made you mind up and it basicaly amounts to blame America!



We still won't believe you because unlike you we see reality in the streets of our cities and towns.

You see home grown gangs that have had/have support from your corrupt Government at all levels start to kill en masse, and now it's time to blame someone else as you cannot accept responsibilty for your countries actions. A country that at all levels encorages and supports illegal immigration.



We see the reality of how easy it is to procure weapons in your country and how anybody with the right amount of money can buy just about anything.

Really, well with the right amount of money you can get what you want anywhere in the World, it's basic supply and demand. As far as how easy it is to get firearms over here, I sure would like to see you go into a gunstore and try filling out Form 4473.



We see the caches of weapons and equipment that our government captures from organized crime and we can't help but notice stuff like Barret snipper rifles (which I've seen in your gunstores and gunshows), U.S. army uniforms, bullet proof vests of better quality than what our troops use, kevlar helmets, and AK-47's similar to what we see in your gunshows (that can and are converted from semi to full-auto by skilled gunsmiths).

Are you saying that military grade body army is available at gun shows en masses now?




You argue that "it is very difficult for your average citizen to obtain such wepons" but the truth is that you can obtain a semi-auto version of an AK just by having a clean record, by being a resident, and by being 18 years of age. You don't even have to register the weapon and your government won't even know you have it.

Actually this is where you show how wrong you are. When you go to a gun store to fill out Form 4473, and the instant background check. Form 4473 is kept on record for the life of that gun store, there is no permanant record of the Instant Background Check. The ATF if a firearm is recovered intact can trace the firearm to the gunstore that sold it, and by checking Form 4473 trace it to the person it was sold to. The peron it was sold to can over a period of time sell the firearm on without any paperwork but this is a private sale.



Then, you can legally sell it to anyone that you want.

Within your State so long as you are not aware that the person buying the firearm is a criminal. If you want to sell it out of State you have to go through an FFL to have it transfered into their name.




You can even put it in the newspaper that you want to sell.

I very seldom see firearms for sale in the newspaper, normally through online forums but all legal rules apply.



The transaction will be only between you and them.

Again depends on the finer details.



So keep fabricating information, keep trying to find guilty parties in unlikely places, like Israel, but we still won't believe you because you guys have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo of gun ownership in your country.

We're not fabricating information at all, we are just attempting to set a clueless few straight as to what's what.

On the idea of a Status Quo, again you try and make it about Mexico, I could give a fcuk about Mexico and their inability to keep their affairs in check, so stop trying to infinge on our God Given Rights!
And if you want to preach to the Choir, do a little homework before you tell us how we can and can't sell firearms.

[Felix U. Gómez]

God given rights? When did God come down from the heavens and give you the right to own an assault rifle? Did he appear to you as a burning bush and give a set of tablets saying "Thou shalt own as many deadly weapons as you see fit and thou shalt sell them to thy neighbor's criminals for profit". Take your drama to your mama bud, you're very good at it, but not much else.

[Felix U. Gómez]

So if the Mexican cartels can import South Korean grenades, grenades which are neither produced or available in the US, how far of a leap is it to believe they can also import guns from anywhere in the world?


More likely they obtained from an American weapons dealer who smuggled them into the U.S. Monterrey is much closer to the U.S. border (only two hours away), than to Korea.

[hsh2]

God given rights? When did God come down from the heavens and give you the right to own an assault rifle? Did he appear to you as a burning bush and give a set of tablets saying "Thou shalt own as many deadly weapons as you see fit and thou shalt sell them to thy neighbor's criminals for profit". Take your drama to your mama bud, you're very good at it, but not much else.

I don't see any drama on Geezahs part, but maybe you could address what has been posted previously in this thread.

[hsh2]

More likely they obtained from an American weapons dealer who smuggled them into the U.S. Monterrey is much closer to the U.S. border (only two hours away), than to Korea.

Why not a Mexican weapons dealer?

[Laworkerbee]

More likely they obtained from an American weapons dealer who smuggled them into the U.S. Monterrey is much closer to the U.S. border (only two hours away), than to Korea.

Bro, come on man.

[hsh2]

Bro, come on man.

At first I thought Felix U Gomez to be a bit stupid really, now I think he's downright irrational. Sorry.

[LineDoggie]

Nah, simple trolling.....

You can provide sources all day, but they stay on talking point

[Felix U. Gómez]

Why don't you address this first:


Cartels' guns flow from U.S.

Smugglers take advantage of some states' looser laws


By Leslie Berestein (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/staff/leslie-berestein/) (Contact (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/staff/leslie-berestein/contact/)) Union-Tribune Staff Writer, Sandra Dibble (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/staff/sandra-dibble/) (Contact (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/staff/sandra-dibble/contact/)) Union-Tribune Staff Writer, David Hasemyer (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/staff/david-hasemyer/) (Contact (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/staff/david-hasemyer/contact/)) Union-Tribune Staff Writer
2:00 a.m. March 25, 2009

After a particularly brutal shootout turned a quiet Tijuana cul-de-sac into a war zone last October, leaving one Mexican soldier and four drug cartel suspects dead, investigators combing through the carnage found the weapons.
There were assault rifles, a massive .50-caliber sniper rifle, even a hand grenade. Fourteen guns were seized. Five of them, it turns out, were bought last summer in Las Vegas.
According to federal court documents, Las Vegas was the northern portal of a gun-smuggling pipeline that funneled weapons purchased in Nevada through California and into Tijuana.
The operation appears to be a prime example of what Mexican authorities have long pleaded with the U.S. government to help curb, especially as cartel violence has reached crisis proportions – the southbound flow of guns that provides Mexico's drug traffickers with the bulk of their firepower.
With firearm ownership severely restricted in Mexico, criminals there have long taken advantage of much looser U.S. gun laws to outfit themselves, particularly with semiautomatic assault weapons and powerful rifles and handguns that fire bullets capable of piercing body armor.
On Oct. 15, a unit of Mexican soldiers was fired upon by heavily armed suspects as they raided a two-story house in Tijuana's central La Mesa district.
Angel Guadalupe Aguilar Villatoro, a 27-year-old corporal from the state of Chiapas in the Fifth Special Forces Battalion, was shot in the head as he moved inside the house with a partner. He became the first soldier to die in Baja California as part of the Mexican federal government's military crackdown on drug cartels, now in its third year.
Four suspects also died in the shootout; a sixth body showing signs of torture was later found stuffed in a large cooler.
After the gunfight, Mexican law enforcement seized the weapons. Five of the guns traced by U.S. federal agents – a .223-caliber assault rifle, three .308-caliber assault rifles and the sniper rifle – were purchased between July 25 and Aug. 2 by a man in Las Vegas identified in court documents as Juan Valdez.
In the documents, the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said Valdez had bought or caused others to buy more than $100,000 worth of firearms. After authorities used a warrant to search his home in early December, yielding additional weapons and cash, Valdez claimed he had been buying guns for a man named “Zorra,” who provided him with tens of thousands of dollars to purchase firearms.
According to court documents, Zorra traveled between the Los Angeles area, where he lived, and Las Vegas to either deliver cash to Valdez or pick up firearms. One order placed by Zorra included five AR-15 assault rifles, a .308-caliber assault rifle and 12 AK-47 drum magazines.
Federal prosecutors would not say which dealer or dealers supplied the weapons because the case is ongoing.
“Nevada is one of those states like Arizona and Texas where you can purchase guns in bulk more easily,” said ATF special agent Michael Hoffman, a spokesman for the agency's Los Angeles field division, which includes San Diego. “I think the only issue with Nevada is it doesn't share a border with Mexico. California is a transit point.”
Valdez cooperated with authorities, leading to the arrest Dec. 23 of an associate of Zorra's nicknamed “Compa,” identified in court documents as Uvaldo Salazar-Lopez, an illegal immigrant living in Anaheim.
According to a federal complaint filed against Salazar-Lopez, Valdez had been instructed to meet him in the parking lot of the Circus Circus casino on the Las Vegas Strip and give him the firearms Zorra had ordered.
Salazar-Lopez later told authorities that he was offered $800 to travel to Las Vegas to pick up the guns for Zorra, who lived in Paramount, a suburb of Los Angeles.
Two or three months earlier, according to the complaint, Salazar-Lopez had been paid $400 to drive to Las Vegas in a blue Thunderbird he borrowed from Zorra and pick up a .223-caliber rifle and a .308-caliber rifle. He returned with the guns and gave the car keys to Zorra at an Anaheim park.
It's unclear how the five guns purchased by Valdez in Las Vegas last summer wound up at the scene of the October shootout.
A subsequent investigation led to the arrest and indictment in February of Claudio Cesar Penunuri, who also went by the alias Arturo Cardenas and his nickname, Zorra. He and Salazar-Lopez are being prosecuted in Nevada for dealing in firearms without a license.
In a three-page indictment filed last month, Penunuri was charged with illicit interstate commerce of nearly 30 firearms between July 25 and Dec. 23. Among the weapons listed are six .50-caliber rifles, several smaller assault rifles, 11 5.7-caliber semiautomatic rifles and three pistols of the same caliber.
The pistols are dubbed matapolicias, or cop killers, in Mexico for their ability to shoot high-velocity rounds that can pierce body armor.
According to the ATF, an estimated 90 percent of the guns recovered from crime scenes in Mexico can be traced back to the United States. In Mexico, officials refer to this gun-running traffic as contrabando hormiga, or ant contraband, because the illegal gun shipments are typically small and arrive in a steady trickle.
In the past two years, violence in Mexican border cities has soared in response to a crackdown on drug cartels by the administration of President Felipe Calderón, with more than 6,000 drug-related homicides reported throughout Mexico last year and more than 1,300 this year so far.
Yesterday the Obama administration unveiled a plan for dealing with the violence, including directing more resources and federal agents to the southern border with the goal of stopping the flow of drug profits and firearms.
“You need to provide resources and manpower . . . to do southbound interdiction,” Arturo Sarukhan, Mexico's ambassador to the United States, said in a recent interview with The San Diego Union-Tribune. “These are the weapons that are being used in Mexico to outgun state and local police.”
There is debate over how best to control southbound gun traffic, whether it should be done at the border or through stricter gun laws and policing of firearms dealers. But the connection between firearms sales in the United States and crime in Mexico goes back decades.
The ATF reports a growing number of firearms transported to Mexico in recent years has come from Arizona and Texas, states where gun laws are less strict than in California.
California law dictates a 10-day waiting period for purchases, including at gun shows. Buyers may purchase only one handgun per month, and assault-type rifles must have a modified magazine that requires a tool to detach.
There is no waiting period in Arizona, Nevada and Texas, even at gun shows. Multiple handgun purchases are legal, as are assault rifles – easily purchased for under $1,000 – with large detachable magazines.
A common tactic of the gun-running networks is to pay “straw” buyers, U.S. citizens who can clear a federal background check to procure weapons. From Arizona and Texas, guns are transported directly into Mexico. From Nevada, the easiest route is through California.
The weapons moving south share the same routes used to move narcotics north, Hoffman said, “and we know those routes come through San Ysidro.”

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/mar/25/1n25guns011211-guns-flow-south-border/

I'd be interested to hear how you twist this one.

[Geezah]

God given rights? When did God come down from the heavens and give you the right to own an assault rifle? Did he appear to you as a burning bush and give a set of tablets saying "Thou shalt own as many deadly weapons as you see fit and thou shalt sell them to thy neighbor's criminals for profit". Take your drama to your mama bud, you're very good at it, but not much else.

I applaud you on the way you conviently ignored the facts I put forward, rather focusing on my comment about God Given Rights.

[hsh2]

@Felix U Gomez:

First of all the source is the ATF, the same ATF that said in the interview Will Clark posted that 90% of the guns are not from the US.

Secondly nobody sid that NOT A SINGLE gun was purchased in the US, the fact of the matter is where does the bulk come from.

"Among the weapons listed are six .50-caliber rifles, several smaller assault rifles, 11 5.7-caliber semiautomatic rifles and three pistols of the same caliber." Is hardly the bulk of drug cartel firepower don't you think?

[Geezah]

Well you guys can say mass and it won't change a thing. You can also continue to post articles with interviews of people who support your views, like the spokesman from the NRA, gun-nuts, and using unreliable sources like FOX News.

You mean we can continue to post the truth, but you won't believe it because you have already made you mind up and it basicaly amounts to blame America!



We still won't believe you because unlike you we see reality in the streets of our cities and towns.

You see home grown gangs that have had/have support from your corrupt Government at all levels start to kill en masse, and now it's time to blame someone else as you cannot accept responsibilty for your countries actions. A country that at all levels encorages and supports illegal immigration.



We see the reality of how easy it is to procure weapons in your country and how anybody with the right amount of money can buy just about anything.

Really, well with the right amount of money you can get what you want anywhere in the World, it's basic supply and demand. As far as how easy it is to get firearms over here, I sure would like to see you go into a gunstore and try filling out Form 4473.



We see the caches of weapons and equipment that our government captures from organized crime and we can't help but notice stuff like Barret snipper rifles (which I've seen in your gunstores and gunshows), U.S. army uniforms, bullet proof vests of better quality than what our troops use, kevlar helmets, and AK-47's similar to what we see in your gunshows (that can and are converted from semi to full-auto by skilled gunsmiths).

Are you saying that military grade body army is available at gun shows en masses now?




You argue that "it is very difficult for your average citizen to obtain such wepons" but the truth is that you can obtain a semi-auto version of an AK just by having a clean record, by being a resident, and by being 18 years of age. You don't even have to register the weapon and your government won't even know you have it.

Actually this is where you show how wrong you are. When you go to a gun store to fill out Form 4473, and the instant background check. Form 4473 is kept on record for the life of that gun store, there is no permanant record of the Instant Background Check. The ATF if a firearm is recovered intact can trace the firearm to the gunstore that sold it, and by checking Form 4473 trace it to the person it was sold to. The peron it was sold to can over a period of time sell the firearm on without any paperwork but this is a private sale.



Then, you can legally sell it to anyone that you want.

Within your State so long as you are not aware that the person buying the firearm is a criminal. If you want to sell it out of State you have to go through an FFL to have it transfered into their name.




You can even put it in the newspaper that you want to sell.

I very seldom see firearms for sale in the newspaper, normally through online forums but all legal rules apply.



The transaction will be only between you and them.

Again depends on the finer details.



So keep fabricating information, keep trying to find guilty parties in unlikely places, like Israel, but we still won't believe you because you guys have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo of gun ownership in your country.

We're not fabricating information at all, we are just attempting to set a clueless few straight as to what's what.

If you want to preach to the Choir, do a little homework before you tell us how we can and can't sell firearms.

[Chulo]

God given rights? When did God come down from the heavens and give you the right to own an assault rifle? Did he appear to you as a burning bush and give a set of tablets saying "Thou shalt own as many deadly weapons as you see fit and thou shalt sell them to thy neighbor's criminals for profit". Take your drama to your mama bud, you're very good at it, but not much else.
Na, just to countries that do a halfassed job on maintaining their borders and own government, such to the point that gangs and criminals have taken over and their own citizens flee the country to look for jobs elsewhere, since their biggest export is drugs and violence.

[Shadowstorm]

Why not a Mexican weapons dealer?
There are no gun stores in Mexico. You got to get a gun permit from SEDENA to own a gun.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&langpair=es|en&u=http://www.sedena.gob.mx/index.php%3Fid%3D123&prev=/translate_s%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dhttp://www.sedena.gob.mx/index.php%253Fid%253D123%26sl%3Den%26tl%3Des

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Mexico

[hsh2]

There are no gun stores in Mexico. You got to get a gun permit from SEDENA to own a gun.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&langpair=es|en&u=http://www.sedena.gob.mx/index.php%3Fid%3D123&prev=/translate_s%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dhttp://www.sedena.gob.mx/index.php%253Fid%253D123%26sl%3Den%26tl%3Des (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&langpair=es%7Cen&u=http://www.sedena.gob.mx/index.php%3Fid%3D123&prev=/translate_s%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dhttp://www.sedena.gob.mx/index.php%253Fid%253D123%26sl%3Den%26tl%3Des)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Mexico

do you understand the difference between "an american weapons dealer who SMUGGLED them..." and a gun vendor or gun salesman? I'm not talking about the gun vendor at Cabelas...

Originally Posted by Felix U. Gómez http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4033443#post4033443)
More likely they obtained from an American weapons dealer who smuggled them into the U.S. Monterrey is much closer to the U.S. border (only two hours away), than to Korea.

Again if an american weapons dealer smuggled them into the US why couldn't a Mexican weapons dealer smuggle them into mexico?

Oh no wait, you don't have weapon dealers in beautiful, clean and untainted Mexico. How could I forget that.

[Airgun_Hunter]

Noooo.

A weapon black market in the U.S. and a smuggling network?

IMPOSSIBLE!!!

At least some are getting the idea of it and working on the problem.
http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/286461

[Shadowstorm]

It's not only gun stores, but gun shows, stolen guns, and guns bought off the "streets" that are smuggled through the border. However, it's not the AK-47's, AR-15/M-16 series rifles, Barrett M-82A1 or other .50 caliber rifles, but also newer guns which are getting popular like the Five Seven pistol, PS-90 ( a civilian venison of the FN-P90), FS-2000 (a civilian verison of the FN-2000 rifle), AR-57 and other newer guns that came into the market a few years ago.
It looks like some of guys miss this point I wrote earlier.

[Policía Loco]

More likely they obtained from an American weapons dealer who smuggled them into the U.S. Monterrey is much closer to the U.S. border (only two hours away), than to Korea.


Dodge, Dip, Duck, Dive, and Dodge

[Airgun_Hunter]

Must be the product of the imagination of a Sci F. writer..

NOT...


http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/03/09/20090309guns0309.html



by Dennis Wagner - Mar. 9, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

Trial of Phoenix gun seller to start today

Prosecutors say guns reached Mexico gangs



Law-enforcement agents on both sides of the U.S.-Mexican border will be watching closely today as a Valley businessman accused of supplying assault rifles to Mexican drug cartels goes on trial.
The case has drawn international attention as a landmark effort against gunrunning and because of the cooperative work between Mexican and U.S. authorities. Mexican prosecutors sat in on suspect interviews and provided investigative materials for the case.
Court papers claim dealers in Arizona and other states bordering Mexico provide three- quarters of the black-market firearms to Mexico, a nation that strictly controls gun ownership. Phoenix is considered a hub for illegal exportation of AK-47s, SKS rifles, .50-caliber rifles and other weapons favored by narcotics gangsters.
Authorities hope to stem the flow of weapons, which are bought at stores and gun shows and then smuggled into Mexico, by cracking down on illegal sales at gun stores.
In Phoenix, a store called X-Caliber was raided last year after multiple weapons in Mexican shootouts were traced back to the store. Owner George Iknadosian, 47, is accused of selling more than 700 "weapons of choice" to straw buyers, knowing that the firearms were bought on behalf of narcotics syndicates.
His co-defendants have pleaded guilty, with most getting reduced charges and sentences in return for cooperation with the prosecution.
"The important part of this case is the number of weapons that ended up at crime scenes in Mexico," Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard said. "There's no question that he (Iknadosian) was a specialist. He was able to get the weapons they wanted in the volumes they needed."
Iknadosian has pleaded not guilty to charges of forgery, fraud, money laundering and operating a criminal syndicate. Defense filings in a related civil forfeiture case suggest that any violation of law stemmed from a misinterpretation of federal regulations. His trial before Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Robert Gottsfield is expected to run nearly three weeks.
A year ago, Goddard signed a pact to fight organized crime with about two dozen attorneys general from both sides of the border. Mexican law enforcement sought U.S. help in tracking firearms after weapons used in cartel battles with police were traced to Arizona.
More than 6,000 people were killed in drug violence south of the U.S. border last year, Goddard's office said. Prosecutors believe that illegal arms from America figure prominently in those slayings and in the killings of 2,000 Mexican law officers.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives reports that 7,700 guns recovered in Mexico last year were traced to American sales, more than double the number in 2007.
In one case, Mexican police records say, eight federales were killed in a firefight with gangsters who outgunned the police using weapons from X-Caliber.
More firearms from the store were involved in a Nogales ambush that took the life of Sonora's chief anti-narcotics agent, Goddard said.
Some of the gunrunners, who also worked as Valley supermarket employees, told investigators they sold the weapons directly to Mexican police on the streets of Nogales. A Colt .38 Super, one of the most powerful auto-loading pistols made, was confiscated during the arrest of Alfredo "El Mochomo" Beltran Leyva, a narco captain who oversaw drug transportation, money laundering, bribery and paramilitary units for a major cartel, according to Mexican police records.
Iknadosian, a native of Egypt, had been a gun dealer in California until 2004. Prosecutors say he moved to Arizona for its more lenient firearm regulations.
In May, after an 11-month probe, Phoenix police and ATF agents raided Iknadosian's business and Glendale residence, seizing about 1,300 weapons.
Iknadosian and nine co-defendants - suspected of being buyers for the cartels - were charged in a 21-count indictment.
In civil court, the state is seeking to take Iknadosian's real estate, bank accounts, firearms and other property, alleging that X-Caliber took in $373,640 from illicit gun sales. Iknadosian is contesting the forfeiture. His court response says the sale of 711 rifles and pistols sold over a 21-month period represents normal business for Phoenix-area gun shops.

[hsh2]

Noooo.

A weapon black market in the U.S. and a smuggling network?

IMPOSSIBLE!!!

At least some are getting the idea of it and working on the problem.
http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/286461

So you what are saying is that Mexico and Mexicos stellar neighbour countires (Belize and co) don't have a weapons black market which could provide the bulk of mexican drug cartel firepower? LOL

Whats next? Saudis telling us that Wahhabism is an Israeli export and plot to tarnish their otherwise renowned image?

[Laworkerbee]

Nobody is ****ing denying guns are coming across the border from the states, it's almost like our Mexican members are having a laugh of some sort.

Let's be respectful of each others views and try to do a little bit better a job of actually ****ing listening to each other.

For Christs sake, we are all on the same side. Are we not?

[Shadowstorm]

You see home grown gangs that have had/have support from your corrupt Government at all levels start to kill en masse, and now it's time to blame someone else as you cannot accept responsibilty for your countries actions. A country that at all levels encorages and supports illegal immigration.
Where did you get this bulls**t information from because I've never heard Mexican government supporting street gangs.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Why not a Mexican weapons dealer?

Becuase you are talking about a very rare species. It's almost like believing in Big Foot (though you and Geezah probably do). However an American weapons dealer, that's a totally different story. Ever see that movie Lord of War? Do you actually think that somewhere in Africa there are Mexican weapons dealers selling guns to guerrillas?

[Shadowstorm]

Nobody is ****ing denying guns are coming across the border from the states, it's almost like our Mexican members are having a laugh of some sort.

Let's be respectful of each others views and try to do a little bit better a job of actually ****ing listening to each other.

For Christs sake, we are all on the same side. Are we not?
I agree with there.

[Airgun_Hunter]

Nobody is ****ing denying guns are coming across the border from the states, it's almost like our Mexican members are having a laugh of some sort.

Let's be respectful of each others views and try to do a little bit better a job of actually ****ing listening to each other.

For Christs sake, we are all on the same side. Are we not?

You said the magic words my friend.

We ARE allies, neighbors, commercial partners and have common goals.

It's not like we're the the bad guys or you are the bad guys.

Instead of blaming one another we should work together to get rid of this common problem.

And looks like both our governments ARE working together and getting great results I applaud them for that.

While we're all here blaming each other hehehe.

Have a great weekend guys.

BTW. I'm all for gun owning.

I've been shooting with friends in California and it's a great hobby. a bit expensive but if you can afford it it's great. I've shot legally owned in California Shotguns, Pistols of different calibers and AR'15 in different variants and calibers.

Man.. I was so hooked I shot most of my friends ammo that day hehehe.
woot

[SBL]

Becuase you are talking about a very rare species. It's almost like believing in Big Foot (though you and Geezah probably do). However an American weapons dealer, that's a totally different story. Ever see that movie Lord of War? Do you actually think that somewhere in Africa there are Mexican weapons dealers selling guns to guerrillas?
That's your evidence? A movie?
Besides, Africa is neither here, nor there.

[hsh2]

Becuase you are talking about a very rare species. It's almost like believing in Big Foot (though you and Geezah probably do). However an American weapons dealer, that's a totally different story. Ever see that movie Lord of War? Do you actually think that somewhere in Africa there are Mexican weapons dealers selling guns to guerrillas?

They don't have to, they can sell to their homegrown cartels.

Felix, just answer this question: According to you there are no Mexican weapon dealers/smugglers in Mexico just like there are no Central American weapons dealers/smuggles in Central American countries? Yes or No.

Just be honest.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Nobody is ****ing denying guns are coming across the border from the states, it's almost like our Mexican members are having a laugh of some sort.

Let's be respectful of each others views and try to do a little bit better a job of actually ****ing listening to each other.

For Christs sake, we are all on the same side. Are we not?

Sorry, but I haven't heard anything coming from hueresiech or Geezah to lead me to believe that they believe otherwise. On the otherhand, no one on our side is denying the possibility that some of the weapons are coming from other places and sources, yet 95% of what we've heard from them in this regard amounts to mere speculation based on the assumptions that there is more corruption everywhere else.

[LineDoggie]

Well, Lets see

First we were told M16/AR15/M4 arent used in Mexico

We proved that to be total Bull****

Then that Barrett .50's were outgunning the Mexicans

Photo of 20 or so Mexican Military with Barretts put that to rest

Then we are told we can Buy Hand Grenades, Machineguns, like buying a Lottery ticket

Proved that was total Bull**** as well

[hsh2]

Sorry, but I haven't heard anything coming from hueresiech or Geezah to lead me to believe that they believe otherwise. On the otherhand, no one on our side is denying the possibility that some of the weapons are coming from other places and sources, yet 95% of what we've heard from them in this regard amounts to mere speculation based on the assumptions that there is more corruption everywhere else.

Yes Felix continue pointing fingers and calling names LOL

@Felix U Gomez:

First of all the source is the ATF, the same ATF that said in the interview Will Clark posted that 90% of the guns are not from the US.

Secondly nobody sid that NOT A SINGLE gun was purchased in the US, the fact of the matter is where does the bulk come from.

"Among the weapons listed are six .50-caliber rifles, several smaller assault rifles, 11 5.7-caliber semiautomatic rifles and three pistols of the same caliber." Is hardly the bulk of drug cartel firepower don't you think?

Which brings me to my next question, which I have posted a few times but still haven't answered me...maybe this time?

Felix, where do you think the BULK of Mexican drug cartel firepower comes from?

[hsh2]

Well, Lets see

First we were told M16/AR15/M4 arent used in Mexico

We proved that to be total Bull****

Then that Barrett .50's were outgunning the Mexicans

Photo of 20 or so Mexican Military with Barretts put that to rest

Then we are told we can Buy Hand Grenades, Machineguns, like buying a Lottery ticket

Proved that was total Bull**** as well

Crazy isn't it?

[Felix U. Gómez]

Where did you get this bulls**t information from because I've never heard Mexican government supporting street gangs.

Aw, don't mind him. Out of all of them he's the one that makes stuff up the most. I think he was born with a peanut in his head.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Felix, where do you think the BULK of Mexican drug cartel firepower comes from?


From the U.S.A.

[Chulo]

From the U.S.A.

what proof do you have?

sources please, and no biased ones

[Felix U. Gómez]

They don't have to, they can sell to their homegrown cartels.

Felix, just answer this question: According to you there are no Mexican weapon dealers/smugglers in Mexico just like there are no Central American weapons dealers/smuggles in Central American countries? Yes or No.

Just be honest.

What, you only read the answers you like? Shadowstorm already answered that question and even provided links. Next

[Shadowstorm]

Like I said before; both United States and Mexico have their faults in this war and other issues. However, I'm glad Calderon is going after the drug cartels, while LEA's like the ATF and the DEA are going after drug and weapon smugglers. I rather I see both countries working together than pointing fingers at each other who to blame in this conflict.

[Felix U. Gómez]

After a particularly brutal shootout turned a quiet Tijuana cul-de-sac into a war zone last October, leaving one Mexican soldier and four drug cartel suspects dead, investigators combing through the carnage found the weapons.
There were assault rifles, a massive .50-caliber sniper rifle, even a hand grenade. Fourteen guns were seized. Five of them, it turns out, were bought last summer in Las Vegas.
According to federal court documents, Las Vegas was the northern portal of a gun-smuggling pipeline that funneled weapons purchased in Nevada through California and into Tijuana.
The operation appears to be a prime example of what Mexican authorities have long pleaded with the U.S. government to help curb, especially as cartel violence has reached crisis proportions – the southbound flow of guns that provides Mexico's drug traffickers with the bulk of their firepower.


I find it hilarious how these posts seem to be invisible to you. And to think that we are only using U.S. based sources. Imagine if we used ours?

[Airgun_Hunter]

what proof do you have?

sources please, and no biased ones

Hmm maybe the U.S. own Government agencies?

[Felix U. Gómez]

Like I said before; both United States and Mexico have their faults about this war and other issues. However, I'm glad Calderon is going after the drug cartels, while LEA like the ATF snd the DEA are going after drug and weapon smugglers. I rather I see both countries working together than pointing fingers at each other who to blame in this conflict.

I totally agree with you my friend. It is only that on one side we have to deal with drug dealers and their hit men, kidnappers, carjackers, and all sorts of human waste, and on the otherside we have to listen to all this B.S. from people who should actually be our allies in this war. A war, that benefits them as much as it benefits us.

[Chulo]

Hmm maybe the U.S. own Government agencies?
Those are agencies, lets see the reports

[Felix U. Gómez]

With firearm ownership severely restricted in Mexico, criminals there have long taken advantage of much looser U.S. gun laws to outfit themselves, particularly with semiautomatic assault weapons and powerful rifles and handguns that fire bullets capable of piercing body armor.


FACT: The vast majority of drug related deaths in Mexico in the past two years were committed by assault rifles while grenades accounted for only a minimal fraction of them.

[Chulo]

I totally agree with you my friend. It is only that on one side we have to deal with drug dealers and their hit men, kidnappers, carjackers, and all sorts of human waste, and on the otherside we have to listen to all this B.S. from people who should actually be our allies in this war. A war, that benefits them as much as it benefits us.
but then it would adversely affect our economy. Who would we sell the guns we buy from Walmart to if they close the Mexican border? And where would all the Mexicans that escape to America go for work?

[Geezah]

Where did you get this bulls**t information from because I've never heard Mexican government supporting street gangs.

Google is your friend!


Members of an elite Mexican anti-drug unit passed information to a drug cartel in exchange for thousands of dollars, prosecutors say.

They said police agents and senior officials gave sensitive information to the Beltran Leyva organisation.

Assistant Attorney General Marisela Morales said those involved had received up to $450,000 (£290,000) a month from the cartel.

They allegedly told the cartel about potential raids and surveillance.

Five officials in the anti-crime unit were arrested, four of them weeks ago.

The passing of information is alleged to have lasted for much of the past four years.


The most serious known infiltration of Mexican anti-crime agencies was in 1997 when General Jesus Gutierrez Rebollo, then head of Mexico's anti-drug agency, was arrested.

He was later convicted of aiding drug lord Amado Carrillo Fuentes.


Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7694257.stm)

BBC is the source, does that work for you?

[hsh2]

From the U.S.A.


Thanks for your honest answer... at last.

But do you believe that there are Weapons smugglers/dealers not just in the evil USA but also in Mexico and/or Central America?

If yes, do you believe that these could supply the mexican drug cartels the BULK of their firepower?

[Chulo]

If yes, do you believe that these could supply the mexican drug cartels the BULK of their firepower?
If FOX news said it NO
If CNN says it, Yes

[Felix U. Gómez]

"With firearm ownership severely restricted in Mexico, criminals there have long taken advantage of much looser U.S. gun laws to outfit themselves, particularly with semiautomatic assault weapons and powerful rifles and handguns that fire bullets capable of piercing body armor.
On Oct. 15, a unit of Mexican soldiers was fired upon by heavily armed suspects as they raided a two-story house in Tijuana's central La Mesa district.
Angel Guadalupe Aguilar Villatoro, a 27-year-old corporal from the state of Chiapas in the Fifth Special Forces Battalion, was shot in the head as he moved inside the house with a partner. He became the first soldier to die in Baja California as part of the Mexican federal government's military crackdown on drug cartels, now in its third year.
Four suspects also died in the shootout; a sixth body showing signs of torture was later found stuffed in a large cooler.
After the gunfight, Mexican law enforcement seized the weapons. Five of the guns traced by U.S. federal agents – a .223-caliber assault rifle, three .308-caliber assault rifles and the sniper rifle – were purchased between July 25 and Aug. 2 by a man in Las Vegas identified in court documents as Juan Valdez.
In the documents, the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said Valdez had bought or caused others to buy more than $100,000 worth of firearms. After authorities used a warrant to search his home in early December, yielding additional weapons and cash, Valdez claimed he had been buying guns for a man named “Zorra,” who provided him with tens of thousands of dollars to purchase firearms.
According to court documents, Zorra traveled between the Los Angeles area, where he lived, and Las Vegas to either deliver cash to Valdez or pick up firearms. One order placed by Zorra included five AR-15 assault rifles, a .308-caliber assault rifle and 12 AK-47 drum magazines."

I thought you guys said it was very difficult to buy these kinds of guns in the States? This guy bought them in bulk. They cost the life of a Mexican soldier, and hero. He had a family and people who loved him.

[Chulo]

"With firearm ownership severely restricted in Mexico, criminals there have long taken advantage of much looser U.S. gun laws to outfit themselves, particularly with semiautomatic assault weapons and powerful rifles and handguns that fire bullets capable of piercing body armor.
On Oct. 15, a unit of Mexican soldiers was fired upon by heavily armed suspects as they raided a two-story house in Tijuana's central La Mesa district.
Angel Guadalupe Aguilar Villatoro, a 27-year-old corporal from the state of Chiapas in the Fifth Special Forces Battalion, was shot in the head as he moved inside the house with a partner. He became the first soldier to die in Baja California as part of the Mexican federal government's military crackdown on drug cartels, now in its third year.
Four suspects also died in the shootout; a sixth body showing signs of torture was later found stuffed in a large cooler.
After the gunfight, Mexican law enforcement seized the weapons. Five of the guns traced by U.S. federal agents – a .223-caliber assault rifle, three .308-caliber assault rifles and the sniper rifle – were purchased between July 25 and Aug. 2 by a man in Las Vegas identified in court documents as Juan Valdez.
In the documents, the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said Valdez had bought or caused others to buy more than $100,000 worth of firearms. After authorities used a warrant to search his home in early December, yielding additional weapons and cash, Valdez claimed he had been buying guns for a man named “Zorra,” who provided him with tens of thousands of dollars to purchase firearms.
According to court documents, Zorra traveled between the Los Angeles area, where he lived, and Las Vegas to either deliver cash to Valdez or pick up firearms. One order placed by Zorra included five AR-15 assault rifles, a .308-caliber assault rifle and 12 AK-47 drum magazines."

I thought you guys said it was very difficult to buy these kinds of guns in the States? This guy bought them in bulk. They cost the life of a Mexican soldier, and hero. He had a family and people who loved him.
Link? which news media was it?

[Felix U. Gómez]

Thanks for your honest answer... at last.

But do you believe that there are Weapons smugglers/dealers not just in the evil USA but also in Mexico and/or Central America?

If yes, do you believe that these could supply the mexican drug cartels the BULK of their firepower?

Actually read what I'm posting and stop playing lawyer.

[BAJACAL]

RIGHT ON FELIX

http://www.usembassy-mexico.gov/eng/texts/et080116eTrace.html
BORDERS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT

Project Gunrunner

ATF Fact Sheet


ATF is deploying its resources strategically on the Southwest Border to deny firearms, the “tools of the trade,” to criminal organizations in Mexico and along the border, and to combat firearms-related violence affecting communities on both sides of the border. In partnership with other U.S. agencies and with the Government of Mexico, ATF refined its Southwest Border strategy. ATF developed Project Gunrunner to stem the flow of firearms into Mexico and thereby deprive the narcotics cartels of weapons. The initiative seeks to focus ATF’s investigative, intelligence and training resources to suppress the firearms trafficking to Mexico and stem the firearms-related violence on both sides of the border.
Firearms tracing, in particular the expansion of the eTrace firearms tracing system, is a critical component of Project Gunrunner in Mexico. ATF recently deployed eTrace technology in U.S. consulates in Monterrey, Hermosillo and Guadalajara, with six additional deployments to the remaining U.S. consulates in Mexico scheduled by March 2008. ATF has conducted discussions with the government of Mexico regarding the decentralization of the firearms tracing process to deploy Spanish-language eTrace to other Mexico agencies.
In the past two years, ATF has seized thousands of firearms headed to Mexico. Trends indicate the firearms illegally crossing the U.S.-Mexico border are becoming more powerful. ATF has analyzed firearms seizures in Mexico from FY 2005-07 and identified the following weapons most commonly used by drug traffickers:
· 9mm pistols;
· .38 Super pistols;
· 5.7mm pistols;
· .45-caliber pistols;
· AR-15 type rifles; and
· AK-47 type rifles.


AND
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
March 24, 2009
DEA Public Affairs
Number: 202-307-7977
Department of Justice Announces Resources for Fight Against Mexican
Drug Cartels

ATF is increasing its efforts by relocating 100 personnel to the Houston Field Division in the next 45 days as part of a new ATF intelligence-driven effort, known as Gunrunner Impact Teams (GRITs). The teams will focus ATF’s violent crime-fighting and firearms trafficking expertise, along with its regulatory authority and strategic partnerships to combat violence along the U.S.-Mexico border.
As part of the Recovery Act funding, ATF received $10 million for Project Gunrunner efforts, aimed at disrupting arms trafficking between the U.S. and Mexico, to include hiring 25 new special agents, six industry operations investigators, three intelligence research specialists and three investigative analysts. The funding will establish three permanent field offices, dedicated to firearms trafficking investigations, in McAllen, Texas; El Centro, Calif.; and Las Cruces, N.M (including a satellite office in Roswell, N.M.). Project Gunrunner has resulted in ATF referring more than 1,500 defendants for prosecution involving more than 12,000 weapons.
ATF will also continue its eTrace initiative with Mexican officials, which allows law enforcement agencies to identify trafficking trends of drug trafficking organizations and other criminal organizations funneling guns into Mexico from the United States, as well as to develop investigative leads in order to stop firearms traffickers and straw purchasers (people who knowingly purchase guns for prohibited persons) before they cross the border. In FY08, Mexico submitted more than 7,500 recovered guns for tracing, showing that most originated in Texas, Arizona and California..
http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/pressrel/pr032409.html


ahh a myth?

[Felix U. Gómez]

Link? which news media was it?

Post 110 (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stori...-south-border/)

I posted the article two pages back but most of you conviniently "didn't see it".

[Chulo]

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stori...-south-border/ (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stori...-south-border/)

I posted the article two pages back but most of you conviniently "didn't see it".conveniently your link did not work - Page not found actually
What is their political standing and which side of the media bias are they on?

[Shadowstorm]

Google is your friend!



Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7694257.stm)

BBC is the source, does that work for you?
I know about that, but where is your evidence about the Mexican government supporting American street gangs because that what you wrote.

[Airgun_Hunter]

I totally agree with you my friend. It is only that on one side we have to deal with drug dealers and their hit men, kidnappers, carjackers, and all sorts of human waste, and on the otherside we have to listen to all this B.S. from people who should actually be our allies in this war. A war, that benefits them as much as it benefits us.

Actually Felix.

Our governments ARE working together with great effort in this war.
You and I have seen the successes of the Mexican Authorities since President Calderon declared full war on those scumbags.

It's just a bunch of individuals afraid.. no.. TERRORIZED that their guns are going to be taken away from them.

Nowadays the only way to take down a democratic government is by VOTING, not taking up arms.

Back in the day I believe taking up arms was a way to get rid of oppressive governments such as the British and you got rid of them.

Back in the day the difference was strategy, numbers and maybe arty.
The Revolutionaries and British army were armed with the same kind of weapons basically.

Since then the capability of killing more people in less time and effort by small arms has increased exponentially.

Now.. a bunch of people with automatic weapons are no match for the U.S. Army.

I'd like to see a number of people taking up arms against your own government to have your guns back. They'll be treated as lunatics, terrorists and dealt with.

You don't like your government? VOTE IT OUT!!!

[hsh2]

Actually read what I'm posting and stop playing lawyer.

I politely ask you a same question numerous times which you conveniently ignore.

Just tell me you don't want to hear my questions or talk to me and I'll go away just like that and even wish you a nice weekend.

[Laworkerbee]

"With firearm ownership severely restricted in Mexico, criminals there have long taken advantage of much looser U.S. gun laws to outfit themselves, particularly with semiautomatic assault weapons and powerful rifles and handguns that fire bullets capable of piercing body armor.
On Oct. 15, a unit of Mexican soldiers was fired upon by heavily armed suspects as they raided a two-story house in Tijuana's central La Mesa district.
Angel Guadalupe Aguilar Villatoro, a 27-year-old corporal from the state of Chiapas in the Fifth Special Forces Battalion, was shot in the head as he moved inside the house with a partner. He became the first soldier to die in Baja California as part of the Mexican federal government's military crackdown on drug cartels, now in its third year.
Four suspects also died in the shootout; a sixth body showing signs of torture was later found stuffed in a large cooler.
After the gunfight, Mexican law enforcement seized the weapons. Five of the guns traced by U.S. federal agents – a .223-caliber assault rifle, three .308-caliber assault rifles and the sniper rifle – were purchased between July 25 and Aug. 2 by a man in Las Vegas identified in court documents as Juan Valdez.
In the documents, the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said Valdez had bought or caused others to buy more than $100,000 worth of firearms. After authorities used a warrant to search his home in early December, yielding additional weapons and cash, Valdez claimed he had been buying guns for a man named “Zorra,” who provided him with tens of thousands of dollars to purchase firearms.
According to court documents, Zorra traveled between the Los Angeles area, where he lived, and Las Vegas to either deliver cash to Valdez or pick up firearms. One order placed by Zorra included five AR-15 assault rifles, a .308-caliber assault rifle and 12 AK-47 drum magazines."

I thought you guys said it was very difficult to buy these kinds of guns in the States? This guy bought them in bulk. They cost the life of a Mexican soldier, and hero. He had a family and people who loved him.

I can't help but wonder if Mr. Valdez was even a citizen of the United States or just another illegal with a stolen identity.

[Felix U. Gómez]

conveniently your link did not work - Page not found actually
What is their political standing and which side of the media bias are they on?

Go to post 110, the link works from there.

[Felix U. Gómez]

I can't help but wonder if Mr. Valdez was even a citizen of the United States or just another illegal with a stolen identity.

So, he smuggled the weapons from Mexico to the U.S. and then he smuggled them back into Mexico? Right?

[Airgun_Hunter]

I can't help but wonder if Mr. Valdez was even a citizen of the United States or just another illegal with a stolen identity.

So you're implying that...

Illegals or not Illegals can that easily steal an identity and buy those kind of weapons? p-)

[Chulo]

Go to post 110, the link works from there.
so whats the newspapers political standing and which side of the media bias are they on?

[Chulo]

So, he smuggled the weapons from Mexico to the U.S. and then he smuggled them back into Mexico? Right?
we should hire illegal Mexicans and arm them with illegal guns and then have them shoot illegal people crossing over the border illegally with illegal guns and drugs.

[Felix U. Gómez]

I politely ask you a same question numerous times which you conveniently ignore.

Just tell me you don't want to hear my questions or talk to me and I'll go away just like that and even wish you a nice weekend.

Politely?

Post 108:
"At first I thought Felix U Gomez to be a bit stupid really, now I think he's downright irrational. Sorry."

[BAJACAL]

we should hire illegal Mexicans and arm them with illegal guns and then have them shoot illegal people crossing over the border illegally with illegal guns and drugs.


....Hmmm No.

[Felix U. Gómez]

so whats the newspapers political standing and which side of the media bias are they on?

So what you're saying is that the story is fake and the Mexican soldier did not die by being shot in the head with a weapon traced by the ATF to having been smuggled all the way from Las vegas, Nevada?
Why don't you go tell the good news to the man's parents, wife and children?

[hsh2]

Politely?

Post 108:
"At first I thought Felix U Gomez to be a bit stupid really, now I think he's downright irrational. Sorry."

And before that? Hmm?

So why don't you answer my questions which you have dodged until and including now?

Do you believe that there are Weapons smugglers/dealers not just in the evil USA but also in Mexico and/or Central America? After all, you claimed that Weapons smugglers are a rare species and even referred to God of War for proof LOL

If yes, do you believe that these could supply the mexican drug cartels the BULK of their firepower?

[Chulo]

So what you're saying is that the story is fake and the Mexican soldier did not die by being shot in the head with a weapon traced by the ATF to having been smuggled all the way from Las vegas, Nevada?
Why don't you go tell the good news to the man's parents, wife and children?
could be, since you easily disregard Fox News as a source. I was just asking for details on your source.

[Chulo]

....Hmmm No.
why not? that would take care of all the problems in one! Illegals, illegal drugs, illegal guns and provide employment

[Laworkerbee]

So you're implying that...

Illegals or not Illegals can that easily steal an identity and buy those kind of weapons? p-)

Indeed, illegals buy houses and get credit with stolen identities, why not firearms as well?

[Airgun_Hunter]

we should hire illegal Mexicans and arm them with illegal guns and then have them shoot illegal people crossing over the border illegally with illegal guns and drugs.


It's people with your kind of attitude that is going to end up with your guns taken away from.

[Laworkerbee]

So, he smuggled the weapons from Mexico to the U.S. and then he smuggled them back into Mexico? Right?

Huh?

The guy was probably an illegal with a stolen identity who purchased these firearms in Vegas and sold them to his contact Mr. Zorra, where is the communication error here?

[Felix U. Gómez]

A subsequent investigation led to the arrest and indictment in February of Claudio Cesar Penunuri, who also went by the alias Arturo Cardenas and his nickname, Zorra. He and Salazar-Lopez are being prosecuted in Nevada for dealing in firearms without a license.
In a three-page indictment filed last month, Penunuri was charged with illicit interstate commerce of nearly 30 firearms between July 25 and Dec. 23. Among the weapons listed are six .50-caliber rifles, several smaller assault rifles, 11 5.7-caliber semiautomatic rifles and three pistols of the same caliber.
The pistols are dubbed matapolicias, or cop killers, in Mexico for their ability to shoot high-velocity rounds that can pierce body armor.
According to the ATF, an estimated 90 percent of the guns recovered from crime scenes in Mexico can be traced back to the United States. In Mexico, officials refer to this gun-running traffic as contrabando hormiga, or ant contraband, because the illegal gun shipments are typically small and arrive in a steady trickle.

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/mar/25/1n25guns011211-guns-flow-south-border/


The ATF sure contradicts itself don't it?

[Airgun_Hunter]

Indeed, illegals buy houses and get credit with stolen identities, why not firearms as well?

If what you say is true and if it's THAT EASY to get weapons.

Then I believe you will have stricter gun laws sooner than later.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Huh?

The guy was probably an illegal with a stolen identity who purchased these firearms in Vegas and sold them to his contact Mr. Zorra, where is the communication error here?

Why don't you read the whole article? I believe that if you can find out who is who in it in regards to their status within the U.S. Do you think that the guy that he purchased the guns from in Las Vegas was also an illegal?

[Chulo]

The ATF sure contradicts itself don't it?
Well actually the news papers says ATF says so, so you dont really know if the ATF did or who the real source is. But then again, looks like you take blindly to what ever source you like and then ignore and ridicule the rest

[Felix U. Gómez]

And does it matter? The guns still came from the U.S. which is what some people on this thread don't seem to understand.

[Chulo]

If what you say is true and if it's THAT EASY to get weapons.

Then I believe you will have stricter gun laws sooner than later.
No, why not kick the illegals out and shut the borders and then we would have less of those issues to deal with. Or maybe Mexico can make an effort on keeping their people in their borders and not encouraging them to break laws

[Felix U. Gómez]

Well actually the news papers says ATF says so, so you dont really know if the ATF did or who the real source is. But then again, looks like you take blindly to what ever source you like and then ignore and ridicule the rest

Oh, the good things is that you don't. :roll:

[Laworkerbee]

If what you say is true and if it's THAT EASY to get weapons.

Then I believe you will have stricter gun laws sooner than later.

That easy? they are exploiting our laws and our system, easy as that. Like I said, illegals and bough houses, cars and everything else under the sun using false identities...so why would guns be any different?

The best part is, when the collection agencies come to collect because the bills have not been paid the person just changes identity again or goes back to Salvador or Mexico and the citizen whose identity was stolen has to sort out the mess.

Like it or not this problem is tied to illegal immigration in almost every way.

[hsh2]

www.loc.gov/rr/frd/pdf-files/OrgCrime_Mexico.pdf (http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/pdf-files/OrgCrime_Mexico.pdf)

"The “Los Tres de Guerrero” drug gang, which operates in the Nuevo Laredo and Piedras
Negras areas, has been linked to arms smuggling as well as marijuana and heroin trafficking.

Russian mafia groups such as the Poldolskaya, Mazukinskaya, Tambovskaya, and
Izamailovskaya have been detected in Mexico.
83
The Moscow-based Solntsevskaya gang is also
reported to be present in the country, as are other mafia gangs from Chechnya, Georgia,
Armenia, Lithuania, Poland Croatia, Serbia, Hungary, Albania, and Rumania. Their major
activities include drug and arms trafficking, money laundering, prostitution, trafficking in
women from Eastern and Central Europe and Russia, alien smuggling, kidnapping, and credit
card fraud."

Additional source:
Inder M. Bugarin. “Arma la mafia rusa a narcos mexicanos [The Russian Mafia Arms Mexican Drug Traffickers],
Reforma [Mexico City], 3 February 1998


What a surprise.

[Laworkerbee]

And does it matter? The guns still came from the U.S. which is what some people on this thread don't seem to understand.

Like those .50's ?
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/laworkerbee/MexSpF1.jpg


And does it matter? The guns still came from the U.S. which is what some people on this thread don't seem to understand.

Find me one American who denies firearms are coming over the border, none of these posters are doing that, they are only arguing that we are not the sole source. Now you're just being a hard ass for no reason.

[wildcat]

the problem is not the US gun laws, the problem Mexico does a piss poor job of policing illegal weapons coming into its land, like the US does a piss poor job of drugs and illegal immigrants coming into our land, the end of the day, it is the poor management of the border that is the problem. Not until the 2 government work at fixing the border will this stop, or reduce it to a more acceptable level.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Huh?

The guy was probably an illegal with a stolen identity who purchased these firearms in Vegas and sold them to his contact Mr. Zorra, where is the communication error here?

If that were true than it would just go to show just how easy it is to buy extremely deadly weapons in the U.S. (and in bulk) with nothing but a fake or stolen I.D. As el uyuyuy said, then you guys need better gun laws.

[Laworkerbee]

If that were true than it would just go to show just how easy it is to buy extremely deadly weapons in the U.S. (and in bulk) with nothing but a fake or stolen I.D. As el uyuyuy said, then you guys need better gun laws.

No we need better identity and immigration laws. Our gun laws are solid, its the illegals who come here and don't respect OUR laws which is the problem.

[wildcat]

If that were true than it would just go to show just how easy it is to buy extremely deadly weapons in the U.S. (and in bulk) with nothing but a fake or stolen I.D. As el uyuyuy said, then you guys need better gun laws.
are not all weapons deadly?

[Felix U. Gómez]

the problem is not the US gun laws, the problem Mexico does a piss poor job of policing illegal weapons coming into its land, like the US does a piss poor job of drugs and illegal immigrants coming into our land, the end of the day, it is the poor management of the border that is the problem. Not until the 2 government work at fixing the border will this stop, or reduce it to a more acceptable level.

Of course U.S. gun laws are to blame! Laworkerbee just implied that to buy assault rifles and .50 cal snipper rifles in bulk in the U.S. all that one needs is a fake or stollen I.D. I mean how easier could that be?

[SBL]

Of course U.S. gun laws are to blame! Laworkerbee just implied that to buy assault rifles and .50 cal snipper rifles in bulk in the U.S. all that one needs is a fake or stollen I.D. I mean how easier could that be?


If that were true than it would just go to show just how easy it is to buy extremely deadly weapons in the U.S. (and in bulk) with nothing but a fake or stolen I.D. As el uyuyuy said, then you guys need better gun laws.
AFAIK a private citizen can't buy any sort of firearm in bulk.

[hsh2]

Felix?

Do you believe that there are Weapons smugglers/dealers not just in the evil USA but also in Mexico and/or Central America? After all, you claimed that Weapons smugglers are a rare species and even referred to God of War for proof LOL

If yes, do you believe that these could supply the mexican drug cartels the BULK of their firepower?

Why don't you just answer?

[Chulo]

And does it matter? The guns still came from the U.S. which is what some people on this thread don't seem to understand.Yes it does matter. Its a circular argument that removes the facts and places in an opinion that then still holds true when the fact is displaced or proven false.

Guns come from US->News says so->ATF "report" says so

Meaning, if the ATF report is not true, then the news article is not true, then the conclusion is no based on facts. That is why i am asking for sources.


Oh, the good things is that you don't. :roll:Actually most of us has not disregarded news on the basis of the agency, while you on the other hand have
The article quotes the spokesman for the NRA and also an interview from FOX News. Even in Mexico we know about "Fox News" and how "fair and balanced" those guys are.:roll:

[Laworkerbee]

I give up, I had hoped our mutual goals would be something that bound us together but instead some only want to point fingers and assign blame.

*Sigh*

[Felix U. Gómez]

are not all weapons deadly?

Some are deadlier than others actually. Like a gun that fires bullets that can easily pierce body armor.

[Laworkerbee]

Of course U.S. gun laws are to blame! Laworkerbee just implied that to buy assault rifles and .50 cal snipper rifles in bulk in the U.S. all that one needs is a fake or stollen I.D. I mean how easier could that be?

Don't misquote me and don't play games. We are not talking about stolen or fake ID's we are talking about peoples whole ****ing identities which are stolen on a daily basis by your people.

[hsh2]

Some are deadlier than others actually. Like a gun that fires bullets that can easily pierce body armor.

Cop killer bullets? Seen Lethal Weapon 3? LOL

[Felix U. Gómez]

01234567890

Yes

No

[Chulo]

Some are deadlier than others actually. Like a gun that fires bullets that can easily pierce body armor.
humm.. thats not the gun, but more the bullet actually. I can have a .50 that shoots tofu and a .22 that shots a FMJ. But apprently the tofu is more dangerous than a .22

[Airgun_Hunter]

the problem is not the US gun laws, the problem Mexico does a piss poor job of policing illegal weapons coming into its land, like the US does a piss poor job of drugs and illegal immigrants coming into our land, the end of the day, it is the poor management of the border that is the problem. Not until the 2 government work at fixing the border will this stop, or reduce it to a more acceptable level.

LOL.

Just like the piss poor job the most guarder border in the world is doing against the flood of drugs getting to the endless junkies in the U.S.A. right?

[Felix U. Gómez]

Don't misquote me and don't play games. We are not talking about stolen or fake ID's we are talking about peoples whole ****ing identities which are stolen on a daily basis by your people.

None of that is in the article I posted. You are only making assumptions about these people's legal status.

[Geezah]

I know about that, but where is your evidence about the Mexican government supporting American street gangs because that what you wrote.

This is what I wrote....



You see home grown gangs that have had/have support from your corrupt Government at all levels start to kill en masse, and now it's time to blame someone else as you cannot accept responsibilty for your countries actions. A country that at all levels encorages and supports illegal immigration.

[Chulo]

LOL.

Just like the piss poor job the most guarder border in the world is doing against the flood of drugs getting to the endless junkies in the U.S.A. right?
The American South border is the most "guardered border" in the world? Really!?

[Chulo]

None of that is in the article I posted. You are only making assumptions about these people's legal status.
you mean ILLEGAL status, they came to buy guns to send back home

[Felix U. Gómez]

AFAIK a private citizen can't buy any sort of firearm in bulk.

Post 110

“Nevada is one of those states like Arizona and Texas where you can purchase guns in bulk more easily,” said ATF special agent Michael Hoffman, a spokesman for the agency's Los Angeles field division, which includes San Diego."

[Felix U. Gómez]

you mean ILLEGAL status, they came to buy guns to send back home

And of course the guy that sold them the assault rifles in bulk was acting LEGALY?

[Hogan]

Getting into Mexico consists of simply flashing your passport or ID. I live right a few hours from the border and know this first hand. Coming back into the US you get questioned, searched, etc. If Mexico/Mexican Citizens want to complain about guns coming in from the US they have only themselves to blame for the lack of screening at the border on BOTH ends. I'm fairly sure the majority of the weaponry is coming up from Central/South America.

If the dealers are determined to get the weapons in, increased security isn't going to stop them, and neither would more stringent Gun control in the US.

[Chulo]

And of course the guy that sold them the assault rifles in bulk was acting LEGALY?
Depends, was the guy selling an illegal Mexican?

[hsh2]

So you're admitting that there are arms smugglers/dealers in one the worlds most corrupt, violent and criminal region but you're denying that they could supply the homegrown Mexican cartels and that America is a better bet, nevermind Belize and co.

Thanks for your honest opinion but frankly...:lol:

[Geezah]

Of course U.S. gun laws are to blame! Laworkerbee just implied that to buy assault rifles and .50 cal snipper rifles in bulk in the U.S. all that one needs is a fake or stollen I.D. I mean how easier could that be?

It amazes me that it always comes back to America.


Mexico Publishes Guide for Illegal Aliens

Mexico's Foreign Ministry has produced and distributed a "Guide for the Mexican Migrant" that is essentially a "how to" manual for illegal entry into the United States.

Moreover, it goes further, by providing recommendations for illegal aliens on evading detection of federal authorities once in the United States. ("Avoid attracting attention," etc.)

While many Americans were shocked to find out that the Mexican government is a witting accomplice in breaking our laws, the assault on our sovereignty by Mexico has been going on for years.

Indeed, the problem begins with Mexican President Vicente Fox, who openly encourages more Mexicans to head North, not only breaking our immigration laws but also trampling the spirit of citizenship and assimilation those laws were designed to foster.

Fox sugarcoats his countrymen's illegal invasion of the United States by deliberately mislabeling it a "migration" and wants us to reward lawbreakers with amnesty and dual citizenship. He refuses to call undocumented Mexicans "illegals," telling talk-show host Sean Hannity in March 2002: "They are not illegals. They are people that come there to work, to look for a better opportunity."

Link (http://www.blnz.com/news/2008/04/23/Mexico_Publishes_Guide_Illegal_Aliens_0985.html)

.............

[Airgun_Hunter]

And all this is because the U.S. President.

His anti-gun agenda as many call it and his government HAS accepted the problem and are willing to work with Mexico to fight those scumbags.

Your own secretary of State recognized the probematic. And that is the FIRST step to find a solution.

Just like Alcoholics. They won't get a cure until they ADMIT they have a problem and get help, and WANT to be helped.

[wildcat]

LOL.

Just like the piss poor job the most guarder border in the world is doing against the flood of drugs getting to the endless junkies in the U.S.A. right?
the way I look at it illegal immigration and drugs in the USA it is our problem it is on our soil, if you can purchase legal firearms in the US, then they are legal, now if they are smuggled across the border, then no longer our problem, if there are illegal gun purchase then we need to police more, the LAW is not the problem, but the enforcing of the LAW, on both side of the border.

A Mexican is not a illegal immigrant in his own land, so the Mexican government has really no right to control his movement, but when he/she cross the border into the US illegally then it is our problem. I don't blame the Mexican Government for our illegal problems, I blame our own government, for not stepping up and dodging the issue.

As for the back flow of weapons, well there is some help from our government, but I feel that we are being used as a scape goat for the lack of control the Mexican government has got over there problems. Also the media is using this as an excuse for the anti-gun agenda, we is very clear on how the are selling the lies, and twisting the true.

I also think that a lot of the weapons being used in Mexico are coming from the Mexican Government though illegal operations. Cannot blame the US for Mexico's failure as a government, you can blame the US for it own failures, but not what is happening on another countries soil.

[wildcat]

Post 110

“Nevada is one of those states like Arizona and Texas where you can purchase guns in bulk more easily,” said ATF special agent Michael Hoffman, a spokesman for the agency's Los Angeles field division, which includes San Diego."
so what, it is not illegal.

[Felix U. Gómez]

The American South border is the most "guardered border" in the world? Really!?

Why don't you come down to El Paso-Juárez.
Obstacle number 1: a dried up river (half the time to be fair)
" " 2: a border patrol agent stationed every 1/4 miles
" " 3: a row of spot lights, one every 50 yards
" " 4: 20 foot steel wall
" " 5: chain link fence
" " 6: Franklin Canal (very deep, very strong current, kills several people a year, but the new stell wall shoud reduce this)
" " 7: chain link fence
" " 8: another chain link fence
" " 9: border freeway
" " 10: remotely operated cameras with IR
" " 11: helicopter every 30 minutes or so flies by

If it ain't the world's best guarded border, it's very close to being it. Anyone that gets past that should be put in the Navy Seals or Green Berets.

[Chulo]

And all this is because the U.S. President.

His anti-gun agenda as many call it and his government HAS accepted the problem and are willing to work with Mexico to fight those scumbags.

Your own secretary of State recognized the probematic. And that is the FIRST step to find a solution.

Just like Alcoholics. They won't get a cure until they ADMIT they have a problem and get help, and WANT to be helped.
Yea, so they the most heavly guarder border is there

but shhhhhhhhhh dont tell Korea that

[Laworkerbee]

so what, it is not illegal.

Get it through your thick skull, you and the rest of us members from all over the world.

Mexico and Mexicans are victims, they never break laws or do anything wrong.

Americans are evil and are responsible for all Mexico's problems.

There problem ****ing solved. Good night all.

[wildcat]

And of course the guy that sold them the assault rifles in bulk was acting LEGALY?
they don't sell assault rifle here in the US easily, well legally any how, it requires ATF stamps, which take a few months to get, photos, finger prints, back ground searches, for each assault rifle and a lot of states don't allow assault rifle sales. AR 15 are not assault rifles, semi auto AK are not assault rifles.