PLA Su-27

[Bayonet]

How do u think of it??? :D :D
http://jczsbbs1.sina.com.cn/upload/5/26/20040426/92571/92660.jpg

[Fintin]

it looks like any other fighter from a distance...as far as the manover...stalling out and starting up again...old party trick thats still good

[Midav]

I like it!

What's it called again? The sitting duck maneuver? :D

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Pugachev's cobra, useless in combat.

[Midav]

Kinda hard to translate sarcasm onto an internet board :)

In any case, I wouldn't call the Pugachev cobra maneuver useless.. well, until recently with the advent of super agile AAM's.

From what I understand, it was developed to break a doppler radar lock.

[VorpalDoom]

theres something to be said about the lack of dog fighting in the world now a days... air engagements occur 10+ miles apart. :roll: also, isn't hte su27 sitll the only jet that was designed in part to be able to do that? (i know its not the only one that can)

[iflu]

yeh...su 27 just famous for cobra

http://www.uploadimages.net/images/561315cobra1.gif

http://www.uploadimages.net/images/401867cobra2.gif

su-37 is more cool with kulbit

http://www.uploadimages.net/images/170966su37_man_4.jpg

[J-10]

Su-35/37 Su-27 Video down load (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13138&highlight=su35+video)

[Omz222]

Pugachev's cobra, useless in combat.
I personally think it's highly debatable whether such maneuver could be used in combat well, though I do sorta agree with the "super agile AAM" statement. I would think that it also helps the plane to acheive a rapid "slowing down" process perhaps, during an engagement.

[MAGNUM]

It's a great aircraft :D :D

[m230e1]

The notion that the maneuver can break doppler lock is idiotic. Doppler is used against staionary and moving. Doppler is critical against movers.

Where this defiance of physics will play out is in a high degree deflection shot. Getting a missle seeker into constraints 1, before the other guy,2, and at near impossible angles. This is highly effective without the use of super maneuverable AAM's

[admar2]

yep, looks like a plane.

rofl

[droopy]

The problem with the Su-27 manuvrability is that only at 30% or less fuel is superior to most planes :(

[Holliwood]

COOL PLANE!

THAN the cobra it's a spectacular move..that is not so usefull in combat...


Fabio

[seruriermarshal]

http://www.uploadimages.net/images/561315cobra1.gif

Seems like they haven't use AA-10 OR AA-11 ?

rofl

[Adri]

the cobra is more like a air show manuver but...the hook can be used in a dogfight to aquire a lock.

[usa320]

The usefulness of it in combat is slim to none... as in aerial combat speed is life... Performing the manueve means bleeding off alot of speed and energy... to the point where the plane is only moving at about stall speed... That puts the plane in a very vulnerable position.

[Russian Texan]

The usefulness of it in combat is slim to none... as in aerial combat speed is life... Performing the manueve means bleeding off alot of speed and energy... to the point where the plane is only moving at about stall speed... That puts the plane in a very vulnerable position.

So multitalented: one moment an expert on economy and international politics (although without much knowledge neither about geography nor about history...), next moment - an expert veteran combat jet fighter pilot...
Ah... so many faces, so many personalities, so many dreams and so much stupidity compiled in one 16 year old with no life...

[VorpalDoom]

it doesnt take an expert to know that the move is useless in actual air to air engagements.

[ohadbx]

its is only useful in aerial gunnery, if the enemy is on your 6, it will throw him in your sights for a brief moment.

[pipaz]

if you thik that su-27 is greal than check out su-35 wich is proven to be the greatest aircarft of the 80's, and to this date is still one of the most manuvrebale aircraft.

[droopy]

it doesnt take an expert to know that the move is useless in actual air to air engagements.
It provess that the plane was unique in it`s time .
It`s very nice to watch at airshows.
It`s nice in PC games.
And if the pilot is crazy enaught to do that mauver in AA combat it`s a POSSIBLE advantage.
Also in 1 vs 1 comabt used with an AA-11 and HMS you can get an advantage by shooting at a target above the plane.

[Russian Texan]

check out su-35 wich is proven to be the greatest aircarft of the 80's

:roll:

[droopy]

check out su-35 wich is proven to be the greatest aircarft of the 80's

:roll:
80`s not even the '90 last time i checked the russians had about 30 Su-35 that is not enaught for a small country like Georgia.

[Russian Texan]

80`s not even the '90
?????
source please, because according to mine it didn't exist back then...


[quote]last time i checked the russians had about 30 Su-35 that is not enaught for a small country like Georgia.Last time you checked, your doctor said that you have visions in your head, Russia doesn't have 30 Su-35, it has 11 prototypes that are being used to develop technology for the next generation fighter.

So, what number of Su-35 is sufficient for the Georgian airforce? Btw, do you even now what are they are flying now?
What about Romania, are 30 SU-35 enough for Romania? I think it would be 10 times better than 1 squadron of Mig 29 A (I understand that some might feel nostalgic about 70's but its time to update, really...) and 120 Mig 21, don't you agree?

[Russian Texan]

The problem with the Su-27 manuvrability is that only at 30% or less fuel is superior to most planes :(

Source?

[VorpalDoom]

*draws a picture of a butthole and points to it*

[RomanS]

I love it when people get jelaous they have to say something, instead of passing by and ignoring it.

I mean seriously

THOSE WHO CAN - do it

THOSE WHO CAN'T - become critics

[droopy]

80`s not even the '90
?????
source please, because according to mine it didn't exist back then...


[quote]last time i checked the russians had about 30 Su-35 that is not enaught for a small country like Georgia.Last time you checked, your doctor said that you have visions in your head, Russia doesn't have 30 Su-35, it has 11 prototypes that are being used to develop technology for the next generation fighter.

So, what number of Su-35 is sufficient for the Georgian airforce? Btw, do you even now what are they are flying now?
What about Romania, are 30 SU-35 enough for Romania? I think it would be 10 times better than 1 squadron of Mig 29 A (I understand that some might feel nostalgic about 70's but its time to update, really...) and 120 Mig 21, don't you agree?

"your doctor said that you have visions in your head"
I didn`t in 140 posts here even one attack a person so i would apreciate if people stay neutral to me.
Georgia was an example not offending that country or it`s former allie Russia is this CLEAR ???
That`s what i`ve been saying that the Su-35 was not developed back in the '80s .
I didn`t knew the exact number that`s why i said "ABOUT 30 planes".You could correct me without insulting me.
As to a small country about 100 modern attack helos and 100-150 modern fighters are enaugh unless you want to conquer that part of the world or have a major threath like Taiwan has China.
And i think that 120 Mig-21 Lancer(that could use the same armament as the Su-35 or the F-16) vs 30 Su-35 in other words 4 vs 1 comparing JUST the machines and NOT the pilots the outcome would be favorable to the MiG.
BUt that is a stupid scenario and it is important in a modern army to have BOTH numbers and modern tehnology that`s why the US has the best Army,AF or NAvy in the world it is the only one that can afford both large number of modern hi-tech equipment.
Other countrys have either small numbers of modern equipment or large numbers of old equipment BUT not both.

[Holliwood]

Do u really think it's not usefull??!!
OK.. let's begin ACM LESSONS! :lol:

U said right SPEED (better Energy) it's the main thing for Dofights!Who can store more energy is the one that can monouvre faster and better..

iBut now immagine a SU27 in front of a F15...distance should be pretty low...
The EAGLE is going to launch an AIM9 against the target...ooopsss the SU27 performs the Cobra and the lock (or anyway the right moment to fire) of the F15 is lost! If they are really near could be that the Eagle has passed the Sukhoi...

NOW WHO IS IN ADVANTAGE? ;) ( i remeber also u that russian since 80's have the possibility of HMS (Helmet mounted signed))

U could also say..but the eagle has better avionics so it can "punish" from far..ok...but read what happened in the "cope india" between F15 and SU30MKK... ;) ;) woot (Also because with they great IRST they can also turn off the radar ;) )

FABIO! p-)
F-104 FOREVER!!!

[Holliwood]

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27333
READ THIS! ;)


Fabio

[Durandal]

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27333
READ THIS! ;)


Fabio

That has to be the most retarded thread I have ever read.

[RomanS]

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27333
READ THIS! ;)


Fabio

That has to be the most retarded thread I have ever read.

Because they are saying Russian made planes did better in exersise, that makes it retarded?

Here is an interesting read

http://www.duffeyk.fsnet.co.uk/flanker_combat.html

[Holliwood]

why retarded?? do u think that is not true what is written?

MOST ARE TRUE BELIEVE ME!


Fabio

[Durandal]

What is retarded is that you have a group of people claiming that the United States pilots were somehow bested...

When in reality what happened was this...

An Indian unit of MORE aircraft went toe to toe with a smaller unit of American aircraft and achieved parity.

It was a completely unrealistic scenario...might it happen? Sure...but it is it likely? No.

AWACS? Nope. None. Aircombat like it or not is no longer about gun duels and scissor moves. While Vietnam proved that to rely solely on missiles in a platform design is folly, we have come a LONG way since in missile design (not just the United States, but other nations as well...hell, Russia makes some DAMN fine AAMs!).

However, American air doctrine uses several pieces in a complex puzzle. Part of which is command and control and intelligence gathering through the use of ground, sea, and airborne information centers like AWACS and E3 Sentry. These blow, and I mean, LITERALLY, blow any competition out of the water. The United States has worked these to a fine science and I pity a nation that thinks they can take them on toe to toe.

Ultimately, a gun combat and short range missile scenario between similar aircraft does little to prove ANYTHING. Yet, some like to look at this as some sort of signal that American combat aviators are slacking or our technology edge has somehow lessened.

What are you going these aviators going to do when their ground based radar controllers see nothing but noise and suddenly eat a SHRIKE? History, over the last thirty years has PROVEN that an unsupported air force is meat to one that has the platforms to what America does.

So, go on and preach all you want, all it comes across as is nationalistic banter.

[Holliwood]

Oh sure!!
USA it's ever better!All their sistems are better...they can count over the network centric doctrine!
in all the case they go away they do like this...:
They do ACMI Session..do u know what is it?
2vs2 4Vs4 4vs2 etc etc etc .... usually isn't present "Magic" (AWACS) so they have to count over their avionics and their tactics....

Many times they have beaten..this is the fact!Not only by Indians..but also from Germans (F4 and MIG29) Italians(F-104, tornado F.3) French (M2000)..but obviously they haven't been beaten every time ok??!
For example in 10 dgft they could have lost 7 times 6,5,1...just to give an idea!

U can't go back into the vietnam era...it's past!!!!but if u wanna go back in the 70's i have a story (but in italian) of a dgft between italian's F104 and US NAVY F4...for u who won??!! woot

I hope to be understandable! ;)

Fabio

[Durandal]

Like I said, all you are talking about is a single scenario type (regardless of how many sub-types) and will rarely happen.

They are unrealistic encounters.

I certainly applaud the piloting of anyone that hands an American pilot his "head" in a gun duel, but he reality simply is that it wont happen in real life, period.

Arguing about it won't solve it. The air force in question needs to either adopt new tactics mean to defeat U.S. air doctrine or adopt a similar doctrine.

Facts are facts.

The United States is NOT going to deliberately put its pilots into a position that the scenarios discussed in the links are going to happen. THUS, those air forces that need to prepare for the common engagement, which is standoff range no emissions other than AWACs or ground controllers. If you cannot do that, then you air force is toast, period.

I mean come on guys. What is more likely to happen? Ground radars, controllers, and SAM sites being taken out by stealth platforms and bombers followed up by a VERY lopsided stand-off missile engagement or Top Gun style gun engagements!?

Be realistic.

[Holliwood]

it's the same thing i'm saying...the strategy of USA it's ever better!!

But in scenarios that aren't GUN FIGHTS!! Remeber!!!!! but launch of "FOX2\3" OBVIOSLY SIMULATED and recorded by a ACMI POD!

Fabio p-)

[Holliwood]

U also say that this are not true scenario! SURE!!!!!

Also because there is no opponents!
see all the new wars...there isn't a single DGFT! :| :| :|

But in the recent past (DESERT STORM) some USA Aircrafts have been downed..but not F15!


Fabio

[Midav]

To play Devil's advocate, the only aircraft "possibly" lost in air to air combat during Desert Storm was an F/A-18.

None after that.

As to air-air simulations, US aircraft win and lose scenarios against allies. However in recent times, US aircraft have come out less victorious. American pilots should train without AWACS support more often. Who knows if AWACS will always be there if the time comes?

Then again, I also don't understand why they used a reserve unit. Should have had the 1st FW there......

[khukuri]

Okay

whats wrong with some of you people, does nationalistic narrowmindess dont let you admitt the good things with other countries planes?

Okay, I dont know to much about aircrafts, If the cobra manouver is useless or not, but what it shows is that the aircraft is very manoverble, which should be an advantage at some situations.

Then we could argue in a more interesting way about airbattle, If it today is done mostly at greater ranges and so on, but some of you did bash the plane directly just necause it was russian.

my 2 cents