US President Obama visits Turkey

[Clearday-TRForce]

http://photonews.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/photonews/US%20President%20Obama%20pays%20symbolic%20visit%20to%20Turkey/13.jpghttp://photonews.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/photonews/US%20President%20Obama%20pays%20symbolic%20visit%20to%20Turkey/15.jpg


Turkish and US presidents discuss strategic aspects of relations

ANKARA - Turkish President Abdullah Gul said Monday he discussed the strategic aspects of relations with the U.S. during his meeting with President Barack Obama in Ankara. (UPDATED)

Turkey and the U.S. have been working together from Balkans to Middle East, Gul told a joint press conference with Obama after their meeting.

The Turkish side was likely to focus on issues like the joint fight against the terror organization PKK, efforts to resolve the Cyprus dispute and possible issues that may arise with any U.S. recognition of Armenian claims regarding the incidents of 1915.

U.S. President Barack Obama met with his Turkish counterpart Abdullah Gul on Monday at the start of a two-day visit aimed at revitalizing ties with its traditional ally. The two leaders are expected to discuss various issues including Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and energy diplomacy.

The main topic for the U.S. is expected to be Turkey's support during the troop withdrawal from Iraq. The Afghanistan-Pakistan conflict, energy diplomacy, Iran and stronger transatlantic relations are also expected to be discussed.

After his meeting with Gul, Obama will make a speech at the Turkish Parliament. During his visit to Parliament, he will hold talks with the speaker as well as with the leaders of political parties.

"The president's address (in the parliament) will reaffirm his belief that Turkey is a critical ally, and an important part of Europe," a senior U.S. official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said ahead of the talks.

"The president wanted to visit Turkey because he believes it’s important that we take steps to renew the U.S.-Turkey relationship, which has drifted in recent years," an official told AFP.

The U.S. president will leave for Istanbul on Monday night following his meeting with Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan.

Obama will arrive in Istanbul, where he will give a speech at a dinner hosted by Gul for the participants of the Alliance of Civilizations summit.

Obama in Anitkabir

Obama officially began his Turkey visit after laying a wreath at Anitkabir, the mausoleum of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, to pay his respects to the founder of the modern Turkish Republic.

Obama slowly climbed the massive flight of stairs and passed through soaring stone columns of red, white and green marble to lay a red-and-white wreath at the huge sarcophagus of Ataturk. He observed a moment of silence under the gold mosaic ceiling.

"I am honored to pay tribute to Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, a man whose vision, tenacity, and courage put the Republic of Turkey on the path of democracy and whose legacy continues to inspire generations around the world.

"As the 44th President of the United States of America, I look forward to strengthening relations between the U.S. and Turkey and supporting Ataturk’s vision of Turkey as a modern and prosperous democracy giving hope to its people and providing 'peace at home, peace in the world'," Obama wrote in the commemorative guest book.


Visit to repair relations

Obama's visit to Turkey is aimed at repairing relations and eradicating all negative consequences of the 2003 crisis in bilateral relations, referring to the rejection of the Turkish Parliament to allow American troops to pass through Iraq from its territory, a spokesman for U.S. National Security Council said.

"Obama's speeches in Turkey will not be directed at Muslims. However, Turkey is a country where the majority of the population is Muslim. Turkey's identity as a Muslim, secular and democratic country is crucial for us," Mike Hammer told the state-run Anatolian Agency aboard the White House press plane on the way to Ankara from Prague where a U.S.-EU summit took place.

A high-level official from the White House told the agency that some of the issues Obama would discuss in Ankara were "Afghanistan, Iraq and the Middle East."

Tight security measures

Tight security measures have been taken in both Istanbul and Ankara for Obama's visit. In Ankara many roads on the convoy's route have been blocked, and thousands of policemen from special operations teams have been deployed, while mobile phone jammers have been activated in the area.

Obama is unlikely to make his earlier-promised speech to warm ties with the Muslim world in the first 100 days of his presidency during his Turkey trip.


http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/11372985.asp?gid=244



Obama arrives in Turkey with a heavily loaded package

ANKARA -The talks between Turkey and the United States will surely define the new American administration’s overview of the Turkish government and its likelihood to cooperate during the regional difficulties ahead, according to diplomatic sources here.

Both parties will list their priorities today and voice expectations. The Turkish authorities will surely talk about the continuation of the bilateral partnership on the eradication of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK, based in northern Iraq.

Turkey already expressed its satisfaction with the intelligence sharing mechanism that allows the Turkish military to conduct successful cross-border operations into northern Iraq. According to Turkish officials, Turkey will reiterate its satisfaction but will likely criticize the Iraqi-Kurdish authorities that ignore the existence of the PKK in their territory. In response, Obama may, perhaps, during his speech to Parliament, touch on the need to support military measures with those of political and socioeconomic ones.

The second point Turkey will raise is the Cyprus problem. In fact, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s invitation to Turkish Cypriot President Mehmet Ali Talat to Washington late April was seen a very positive step but its cancelation due to Greek Cypriot and Greek government pressure was disappointing. Turkey will touch on the importance of the issue and will inform Obama on Turkey’s will for a comprehensive settlement. It would not be surprising for Ankara to ask for more support from Obama for Cypriot talks. Richard Holbrooke, a senior adviser of Obama, has been engaged with the problem since the late 90s but could not make any progress. Ankara will likely mention its desire to enter the EU. In the past, U.S. pressure for Turkey’s admission has not led to any improvements and has even been counter-productive.

One of the trickiest issues is the possibility of U.S. recognition of the Armenian mass-killings as genocide. Both Gül and Erdoğan may inform Obama about the talks with Armenia to normalize relations, possibly hinting that any move in the direction of recognizing the 1915 incidents as genocide would hurt the process. Obama is not expected to give any assurances on the issue but will likely encourage both parties to continue on the track.

All regional issues

As for the American part, a variety of issues ranging from Afghanistan-Pakistan to energy diplomacy, and from Iran to stronger transatlantic ties will be raised during talks. In Afghanistan, the United States has just introduced its new strategy to its allies in NATO, which demands more troops, logistics and humanitarian aid to the country. Turkey is not warm to the idea of sending more troops to the war-torn country and instead has suggested a political solution to the problem. Bringing the Taliban to the table is one of the conditions for reaching a solution, according to Ankara.

President Gül will update Obama on Turkey’s initiative to gather the presidents of Afghanistan and Pakistan together here last week. The second issue is Iran and its nuclear program. Obama will likely speak to his Turkish colleague about the U.S.’ intension to work with Turkey and will at the same time seek some support from Ankara. He is expected to advise Ankara not to engage in any initiative with Iran, and any energy deal or similar move should be postponed, according to Washington, an idea Turkey is not very positive on. Iran recently rejected any third-party mediation between Tehran and Washington, but for Americans, Turkey still can play a role of at least "messenger."

On Iraq, Gül’s recent visit was praised by the U.S. Though its results are not very promising, Turkey’s commitment to stand with Iraq on the way to normalization is applauded. In the Middle East, Turkey’s active diplomacy both to provide a peace deal between Syrian Israel, and a settlement to the Palestine and Israel deal was considered important by the U.S. Obama may ask Turkey to keep its attention to the region and to contribute to the solution. Turkey’s membership on the UN Security Council is seen good to this end.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/11370012.asp?gid=244




Best Regards,
CDTRF

[WarDancer]

Is there any history between Turkey and the US BHO needs to apologize for? Just wondering.

[m.i.t]

Turks are very glad for this polite visit . First time a new elected US president visited Turkey and also this is his first presidential overseas visit to a country .
l saw Mr. Obama in Ankara city and should say he has warm smile...


http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Obama%20TBMM'de%20konuştu/A06155322.jpg (http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=21779&p=4&rid=2)




Mr.President in Turkish parliament.


http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Obama%20TBMM'de%20konuştu/A06165230.jpg (http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=21779&p=74&rid=2)

Chief commander of army come to parliament for Speech of Mr. President.

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Obama%20-%20%20Erdoğan%20görüşmesi/A06165458.jpg (http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=21793&p=1&rid=2)

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Obama%20-%20%20Erdoğan%20görüşmesi/A06165227.jpg (http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=21793&p=6&rid=2)

PM and President.


http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Obama%20ve%20Gül'ün%20basın%20toplantısı/D06152823.jpg (http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=21773&p=23&rid=2)

Presidents are together. .

[Faheka]

"Like you, we built a grand monument to honor our founding father - a towering obelisk that stands in the heart of the capital city that bears Washington's name.
It took decades to build. There were frequent delays. Over time, more and more people contributed to help make this monument the inspiring structure that still stands tall today. Among those who came to our aid were friends from all across the world, who offered their own tributes to Washington and the country he helped to found.
One of those tributes came from Istanbul. Ottoman Sultan Abdulmecid sent a marble plaque that helped to build the Washington Monument. Inscribed in the plaque was a poem that began with a few simple words, and I quote: "So as to strengthen the friendship between the two countries.""


Read whole parliament speech: http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=171750

[Faheka]

Priceless Moment
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBRJpfPs2pQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBRJpfPs2pQ)


Obama speaking turkish. Merhaba Asker= Hello Soldier Sagol=Long live sir
http://videonuz.ensonhaber.com/haber-20841-obama-koskte-merhaba-asker.html
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBRJpfPs2pQ)

[Parx400]

"and possible issues that may arise with any U.S. recognition of Armenian claims regarding the incidents of 1915. "

In California there is some sort of tax break you get if you or your family suffered durring that time. I **** you not its a line in the CA state tax form. This state should be nuked for such retardation and faggotrry.

[kvk1]

Most definitely a welcome visit with the right messages being thrown out.


Treat Turkey as more than a Muslim country. Since the Iraq War, U.S.-Turkish relations have been focused on the Muslim Middle East, particularly Iraq. This development has come at the expense of previous U.S.-Turkish cooperation in the Caucasus, Black Sea, Central Asia, and within Europe and NATO. Turkey is more than just a Muslim partner for the United States. Washington's singular focus on Middle East issues has empowered a Muslim vector in Turkish foreign policy, stimulating an exclusively Muslim identity among Turks at the expense of European and pro-Western identities. Obama has a grasp of this issue; news reports suggest the president is not going to deliver his "address to the Muslim world" from Turkey. According to the White House, Obama's Turkey stop is not linked to his campaign promise to visit a Muslim country during the first 100 days of his presidency. Washington needs to cooperate with Turkey on non-Muslim issues if it wants to keep Turkey's non-Muslim foreign policy vectors alive and various Turkish identities thriving.

http://www.thewashingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=3039


This gesture was huge for many Turks. Hats off.

On a side note I particularly liked his pictures with what I could only refer to as the Turkish Dixie Chicks. :D

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages%5CFoto%20Haber%5CObama%20%C4%B0stanbul%27da%5CA06220918.jpg
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages%5CFoto%20Haber%5CObama%20%C4%B0stanbul%27da%5CA06221212.jpg
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages%5CFoto%20Haber%5CObama%20%C4%B0stanbul%27da%5CA06221259.jpg

[Karaahmetoglu]

Is there any history between Turkey and the US BHO needs to apologize for? Just wondering.



American troops put bags over our Secret Service heads and put them under arrest in, N.Iraq when these guys where collecting intel on PKK terrorist scums.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hood_event


Plus PKK scums have gotten Ar 15 supposedly from Blackwater, no terrorist support charges have been put on those involved. :roll::roll:

[philbob]

I wonder what retarded statement the messiah will make in turkey

[AKS]

"and possible issues that may arise with any U.S. recognition of Armenian claims regarding the incidents of 1915. "

In California there is some sort of tax break you get if you or your family suffered durring that time. I **** you not its a line in the CA state tax form. This state should be nuked for such retardation and faggotrry.



only in cases if you yourself have suffered or in some cases (not all) for restitution payments

[Clearday-TRForce]

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[1curious]

I've always been interested in and sympathetic to Turkish politics...

But lets try to figure out the real and most probable policy shifts (if any) behind the flashy images. Any guesses?

[Mencius]

I've always been interested in and sympathetic to Turkish politics...

But lets try to figure out the real and most probable policy shifts (if any) behind the flashy images. Any guesses?

For one matter most likely, preventing the creation of Kurdistan. This is where the US/Turkey spat originated from when the Allies commenced with the new Iraq war.

[JJHH]

I like Obama but he should not interfere in the discussion whether Turkey should join the EU. Good that we have strong politicians in Europe like Sarkozy who immediately rejected Obama's 'advice'.

[Faheka]

hah, german-franco alliedship in EU will have less power/influence on decision making thats why he doesnt want full membership for Turkiye. He is just guarding his interests, its understandable..like he said "turkey is to big".. thats why u see PM's of UK and Spain expressing there support for Turkiyes EU membership..

[1curious]

Here are four most recent American thought processes on the US-Turkey relations. From my POV, these are well balanced reports with at least an attempt at objectivity and factual analysis. I'm still forming my views...

1. Center for Strategic and International studies.

Turkey's Evolving Dynamics
http://www.csis.org/component/option,com_csis_pubs/task,view/id,5373/type,1/
Synopsis:
Relations between the United States and Turkey stand at a critical juncture. Turkey is a key ally in the advancement of U.S. interests vis-à-vis the Middle East, Eurasia, and global energy diversification. Turkey still sees the United States as its closest ally and wants to be a partner in advancing mutual interests, particularly in its immediate environs. This confluence of interests gives revitalization of bilateral ties greater urgency. Yet the relationship remains somewhat strained and lacks the strategic character it once enjoyed. The two governments have made steady progress during the past few years to repair the damage done by differences over the Iraq War and the handling of its turbulent consequences. The visits by President Barack Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton during the first few months of the administration suggest a commitment to further strengthening relations. However, much remains to be done.

Turkey has been buffeted in recent years by turmoil in its neighborhood, beginning with the consequences of the Iraq war, then again with the Russian invasion of Georgia in the summer of 2008. Turkish leaders will continue to pursue policies that seek to avoid such regional instability, and they expect understanding from Washington on this score. Washington, too, has the right to expect that Ankara will behave as a loyal ally when mutual interests are threatened.

This report, prepared by seven senior CSIS scholars and two colleagues from other institutions, offers a comprehensive and balanced assessment of the uncertain state of Turkey’s domestic political and social dynamics and the complexity of its relations with its neighbors. It reflects extensive field research in Turkey and neighboring countries, as well as consultations with a wide range of officials, scholars, journalists, and leaders of business and trade associations.

2. Stratfor

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090330_united_states_germany_and_beyond
Turkey-related passage:

But let’s remember that Obama’s trip doesn’t end in Europe, it ends in Turkey. Turkey is a NATO member but has been effectively blocked from entry into the EU. It is doing relatively well in the economic crisis, and has a substantial military capability as well. The United States needs Turkey to extend its influence in Iraq to block Iranian ambitions, and north in the Caucasus to block Russian ambitions. Turkey is thus a prime candidate for an enhanced relationship with the United States. Excluded from Europe out of fears of Turkish immigration, economically able to stand on its own two feet, and able to use its military force in its own interest, it doesn’t take a contortionist to align U.S. and Turkish policies — they flow naturally.
However planned, Obama’s visit to Turkey will represent a warning to the Germans and others in its orbit that their relationship with the United States is based, as Merkel put it, on national interest, and that Germany’s interests and American interests are diverging somewhat. It also drives home that the United States has options in how to configure its alliance system, and that in many ways, Turkey is more important to the United States than Germany is.

3. Council on Foreign Relations

The Evolving Turkish Role in Mideast Peace Diplomacy
http://www.cfr.org/publication/19000/evolving_turkish_role_in_mideast_peace_diplomacy.html?breadcrumb=%2Fregion%2F358%2Fturkey

As President Obama arrives in Ankara, he will find a Turkish government eager to play an influential role in the Middle East. While Turkey has made important contributions to the region in recent years, its activism has been controversial in Washington.

4. CRS report for Congress:
(as non-partisan and authoritative US research groups as can be found), slightly out of date, Sept 2008.

Turkey: Update on Crisis of Identity and Power
http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RL34646_20080902.pdf

[Faheka]

look stratfor agrees..

Summary


U.S. President Barack Obama reaffirmed U.S. support for Turkish EU membership April 6. The speech comes as Turkey has come into its own as a power player, and as the European Union’s power to influence Turkey through the prospect of EU membership is waning.


Analysis

U.S. President Barack Obama traveled to Ankara on April 6, where he reaffirmed during a speech to the Turkish parliament Washington’s support for Turkish EU membership — a stance that has enjoyed strong bipartisan support throughout several U.S. presidencies. “Turkey is bound to Europe by more than bridges over the Bosporus,” he said, adding that Turkish membership “would broaden and strengthen Europe’s foundation.” A day earlier, Obama was in Prague, where he told EU leaders that moving forward with Turkey’s EU accession would “continue to anchor Turkey firmly in Europe.”

Obama’s cheerleading for Turkish EU membership stems from his administration’s desire to enhance Ankara’s global standing to complement the U.S. agenda in the Islamic world. By wrapping up his European tour in Turkey, the U.S. president is not only reaffirming Turkey’s place in the West, but also sending a message to his European allies that Washington envisions Turkey filling in the gaps where the Europeans cannot (or will not), especially when it comes to core issues like Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran or Russia.

Turkey naturally welcomes the U.S. endorsement of its heightened position. But it expects Washington to do its part to see to Turkish demands, particularly vis-a-vis their relations with Europe.
The Europeans have plenty of reason to continue resisting the Turkish claim to Europe. In fact, after Obama’s appeal to Europe to bring Turkey into the EU fold, French President Nicolas Sarkozy reaffirmed his opposition to Turkish membership April 5, saying, “I have always been opposed to this entry and I remain opposed.” German Chancellor Angela Merkel similarly countered Obama’s optimism by stating that the shape of the relationship between the European Union and Turkey is yet to be determined.

For Germany and France, Turkish membership would mean a further weakening of EU cohesion, virtually guaranteeing that any federalist attempts would fail. Because of Turkey’s large population — at more than 70 million today, within a generation Turkey will have more people than Germany, currently the most populous European country — Ankara would hold the most influence over EU institutions and voting procedures.....

Read more at source
Source: http://www.stratfor.com/memberships/135263/analysis/20090406_update_united_states_and_turkey

[valtrex]

I like Obama but he should not interfere in the discussion whether Turkey should join the EU. Good that we have strong politicians in Europe like Sarkozy who immediately rejected Obama's 'advice'.
And if I might add, it's a bit tactless to express openly your thoughts on how should a partnership of 27 independent States behave (EU), when your country in not a member of this partnership. Mr. Obama is an outsider, he should talk as an outsider.

[Faheka]

obama on air force one ready to depart from istanbul...

Thank you and come again..

[Aor]

The speech was historic and signals a new day in the dealings of the U.S with Turkey and its wider policy in the region. The rhetoric was smart and it is clear Obama tried to mend the wounds inflicted in American - Turkish relations the past years. However to think that Obama does this out of sympathy is a mistake. The U.S is leaving Iraq and thus U.S policy will become more dependent on its main allies in the middle east, Israel and Turkey. However, Obama made clear how he wishes Turkey to go forward as a country and a political entity. The support of Turkey's accession proceedings by the U.S does not institute an ultimatum to the E.U, nor is it a carte blance to Turkey. Obama said " We speak not as members of the EU, but as close friends of Turkey and Europe". The U.S may influence the E.U leaders, but the accession proceedings are a clearly defined process unlinked to any bias or nationalistic views of the various members of the E.U. In this aspect the U.S cannot touch or force its opinion. It is lone through the various European institutions that Turkey may become a member. Doing otherwise would jeopardise Europe's credibility and strength. Obama is not a fool and he knows this. There were a number of hints concerning the democratisation of Turkey and its relations in the region. He clearly supported the reforms that took place through the E.U's pressure saying "...political reforms not simply because it's good for Europe, but because it is right for Turkey." That goes against the views of the extreme right and the so called "deep state" in Turkey that fought tooth and nail against these reforms. This pattern is continued throughout his speech and normally would make any fanatics hair crawl. For example reform of the penal code "In the last several years, you have abolished state-security courts and expanded the right to counsel. You have reformed the penal code, and strengthened laws that govern the freedom of the press and assembly. You lifted bans on teaching and broadcasting Kurdish, and the world noted with respect the important signal sent through a new state Kurdish television station." religious freedoms and minority rights "Freedom of religion and expression lead to a strong and vibrant civil society that only strengthens the state, which is why steps like reopening the Halki Seminary will send such an important signal inside Turkey and beyond. An enduring commitment to the rule of law is the only way to achieve the security that comes from justice for all people. Robust minority rights let societies benefit from the full measure of contributions from all citizens." The issue of the Armenian Genocide, an issue the Turkish elite rejects to speak of "this is really about how the Turkish and Armenian people deal with the past. And the best way forward for the Turkish and Armenian people is a process that works through the past in a way that is honest, open and constructive." He also makes clear his views on Turkey's need to continue diplomatic initiatives in the region that promote peace. He praises Turkey's diplomatic efforts of cooperation in the Caucasus now as positive. Lets not forget that during the Nagorno Karabach conflict Turkey supported militarily Ajerbaijan . This stance is begining to change through dialogue. "It speaks to Turkey's leadership that you are poised to be the only country in the region to have normal and peaceful relations with all the South Caucusus nations. And to advance that peace, you can play a constructive role in helping to resolve the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, which has continued for far too long." There is a clear distancing of Obama from the hard liners in Turkey that supported a confederation or worse the Turkish invasion an d occupation as a permanent solution to the Cyprus issue. He supports direct negotiations between Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots without the interference of Turkey. There was no mention of the future of the Kurds in Iraq. that raises a lot of questions on where the U.S stands and how much the Americans take into consideration Turkish concerns. He did praise however the steps taken in promoting and maintaining the Kurdish identity in Turkey.

[Mencius]

And if I might add, it's a bit tactless to express openly your thoughts on how should a partnership of 27 independent States behave (EU), when your country in not a member of this partnership. Mr. Obama is an outsider, he should talk as an outsider.

Let's not forget that the US administration is on a charm offensive to heal divisions created by the recent Iraq war. Politicians are politicians, and they often say things that aren't true. That's not a revelation, but hey, sometimes you have to put a plastic smile, be nice and compliment your host and appear supportive.

Turkey's EU accession will be decided by Europe. Full stop. Personally, I don't see Turkey ever being incorporated into the EU except on a 'special privilege' basis that was mentioned by the Germans.

[4X4Driver]

As an outsider, I think I can say that I fallowed Obama's election campaign pretty closely. I had my doubts about him regarding his views in general and towards the region I'm from. During his visit to Turkey, I came to the conclution that he's a great BS artist (as Mel Brooks would say). He gave unnecassaryly way too much credit to current Islamist gov't and Erdogan just to look good for the region. I didn't like such move on the expenses of Turkey. I know understand the Americans who oppose to him and his politics much better.

[Clearday-TRForce]

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http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/BAŞKAN%20OBAMA'NIN%20%20SULTANAHMET%20CAMİİ%20ZİYARETİ/F07123914.jpg

[Faheka]

Damn clearday abi.. I'll remove pics from my post..

[Mencius]

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/BA%C5%9EKAN%20OBAMA%27NIN%20AYASOFYA%20GEZ%C4%B0S%C4%B0/A07132746.jpg
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/BA%C5%9EKAN%20OBAMA%27NIN%20AYASOFYA%20GEZ%C4%B0S%C4%B0/A07132747.jpg



I assume the cat was scanned?:)

[Faheka]

^^ lol :)

http://galeriimg.sabah.com.tr/4553/101639p.jpg

[Ulytau]

I assume the cat was scanned?:)


Lol Istanbul cats :D

Especially around of mosques and they are really close to people cause people feeding em woot :hug:

[Faheka]

Religious cats only in Turkiye

[Ulytau]

roflReligious cats only in Turkiye

When i was visiting Fatih Sultan Mehmets ''Mehmet the Conqueror'' Turbe ''Tomb'' there was a yellow and really big cat too,he was waiting near by tomb gate like a guardian rofl

[1curious]

Added to prevent photographic abuse

[Clearday-TRForce]

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Obama,%20Erdoğan'a%20baktı%20aynısını%20yaptı/03.jpghttp://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Obama,%20Erdoğan'a%20baktı%20aynısını%20yaptı/05.jpg

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Obama%20Türkiye'den%20ayrıldı/R07143600.jpg

[OguzKhan]

hey obama didn't visit garanti :) did he ? :D

[Ulytau]

If this cat attack someone ''Same cat which Obama caress'' it wont going to be surprise..

This chat ''GLi'' living in Hagia Sophia and in these days Hagia Sophia visitors visiting this cat too.. ''6 cats living there too''

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv40/Kaydol666/uhasdhusadaxzc/fft17_mf216568.jpg

[Kradder]

American troops put bags over our Secret Service heads and put them under arrest in, N.Iraq when these guys where collecting intel on PKK terrorist scums.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hood_event


Plus PKK scums have gotten Ar 15 supposedly from Blackwater, no terrorist support charges have been put on those involved. :roll::roll:


I refer to your source:

Seemingly acting on an intelligence tip that there were individuals in the safehouse plotting to assassinate the Iraqi-Kurdish governor of the province of Kirkuk


Whatever these Turkish insurgents were doing in Iraqi Kurdistan, they were there without any permission (IMO being spies/infiltrators/insurgents) and should be happy they are still alive now.
The US army was undergoing many operations with the Kurdish military (Viking Hammer f.e.) and this was just one of them.

[Kradder]

That said, I have a question for the Turkish members here, how do you think that Obama is ready to take the Turkish side in the Turkish/Kurdish conflict? Do you think he will be mediating or taking a side?


Notice this:



Gulf News‘ Basil Adas reported (http://www.gulfnews.com/region/Iraq/10231099.html) July 22, 2008, that, according to Kurdish political sources, U.S. forces “could be stationed permanently in Kurdistan as part of a long-term security agreement.”

The Iraqi government and head of northern Iraq’s regional Kurdish administration, Massoud Barzani, along with the leadership of US forces in Iraq have started to suggest that American forces be permanently based in Kurdistan. [...]
Iraqi and US negotiations continued in Baghdad to conclude a memorandum of understanding to sign this agreement, which will allow the US military to stay permanently in Kurdistan, and Iraqi and US negotiators agreed to focus these negotiations on the issue of determining a timetable for the agreement.
Adas added that his sources said Sen. Obama “welcomed” these ideas:

Obama “believes the survival of US combat forces in Kurdistan does not pose any real danger to the lives of US troops and therefore it would be appropriate to redeploy US troops there in the future.”


http://www.krg.org/grafik/draw_image.aspx?intMaxHeight=400&intWidth=430&strImage=/grafik/uploaded/2009/President_Barack_Obama_Masoud_Barzani_Baghdad_2009_04_01.jpg

[Karaahmetoglu]

I refer to your source:

Seemingly acting on an intelligence tip that there were individuals in the safehouse plotting to assassinate the Iraqi-Kurdish governor of the province of Kirkuk


Whatever these Turkish insurgents were doing in Iraqi Kurdistan, they were there without any permission (IMO being spies/infiltrators/insurgents) and should be happy they are still alive now.
The US army was undergoing many operations with the Kurdish military (Viking Hammer f.e.) and this was just one of them.



Same guys who gave the intelligence tip that there where Weapons of Mass destruction in Iraq? :roll::roll::roll:


Who gave them this intelligence tip? A trust worthy source? An unbiased source, I seriously doubt that.


I seriously doubt the fact that they even got a tip, and that that was an excuse afterwords.


And there is no source that they where acting on this tip from that wiki article, I quoted it because I could not find anything else in English about that incident for English speaking members of Militaryphotos.net.

[Faheka]

All I know that they already knew about the safehouse(you know being allies and all), and they supposedly got a tip on what u just posted there kradder.. can u confirm this karaahmetoglu?

[Karaahmetoglu]

All I know that they already knew about the safehouse(you know being allies and all), and they supposedly got a tip on what u just posted there kradder.. can u confirm this karaahmetoglu?


Confirm what about the tip? What? Of course I cannot confirm it what is there to confirm? If Turkey will not even execute PKK terrorists what makes you think they are going to go and assassinate some Kurdish politician in N.Iraq. And if they where going too, you should know that they would have had a good reason too.

[Faheka]

u got me wrong mate, lets leave that part out. thats there excuse, nobody can confirm as u say. what a read about is that they already knew about the safehouse, and that they have even visited this safehouse before the incident..?

[Karaahmetoglu]

u got me wrong mate, lets leave that part out. thats there excuse, nobody can confirm as u say. what a read about is that they already knew about the safehouse, and that they have even visited this safehouse before the incident..?


Yes they (the Americans) knew that this was a safehouse, and they did visit it many times before. As a matter of fact I heard that the people inside thought the Americans where coming to visit not to arrest them. The building was strapped with explosives as well.

[4X4Driver]

I refer to your source:

Seemingly acting on an intelligence tip that there were individuals in the safehouse plotting to assassinate the Iraqi-Kurdish governor of the province of Kirkuk


Whatever these Turkish insurgents were doing in Iraqi Kurdistan, they were there without any permission (IMO being spies/infiltrators/insurgents) and should be happy they are still alive now.
The US army was undergoing many operations with the Kurdish military (Viking Hammer f.e.) and this was just one of them.

No where near the truth..you got pretty used to throwing around things like this since ppl buys everyting you all say without hesitation...right?? ;)

Hmm..let's see...

When the Operation Provide Comfort/Northern Watch(No Fly Zone) was being forced by the coalition forces (British,US,Turkish and French) based in Turkey, part of the deal was that there had to be a ceasefire between fighting barzani and talabani. A small Turkish unit was placed in N. Iraq to observe this fragile ceasefire. So their presence there were not illegal as you're trying guess. You probably don't have any knowledge of this since all happened before you were born.



U.S. UNABLE TO KEEP PEACE BETWEEN KURDISH FACTIONS.

On Friday, as Saddam Hussein Saddam Hussein sent tens of thousands of troops toward the protected Kurdish enclave in northern Iraq, American diplomats raced to the U.S. Embassy in London in a last-ditch attempt to save the fractured Kurdish alliance that has been a bulwark of America's policy in the region.

Ever since the chaotic end to the Persian Gulf War 1991, the United States United States, had tried to hold the Kurds together to deny Iraq, or neighboring Iran, any pretext to move into the enclave. To that end, the United States created and protected a safe haven of sorts for the Kurds. The Americans repeatedly brokered cease-fires when fighting erupted between Kurdish factions.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/U.S.+UNABLE+TO+KEEP+PEACE+BETWEEN+KURDISH+FACTIONS-a083964925



Operation Provide Comfort II

Operation Provide Comfort II, a show of force to deter new Iraqi attacks on the Kurds, began 24 July 1991 and had only limited humanitarian aspects to its mission. It ended 31 December 1996. The Air Force executed the bulk of the missions over northern Iraq in Operation Provide Comfort, flying over 4,500 sorties in 1996 -- about 60 percent of the coalition total since 1991. While US fighters patrolled the skies over northern Iraq enforcing the no-fly zone, Air Force airlift and air refueling aircraft transported troops and equipment in support of these ongoing operations.

Provide Comfort eventually settled into a routine. Personnel arrived at Incirlik and villages in Iraq, then departed on a 90 to 120 day cycle. Crews continued to airlift supplies into the region for distribution to the Kurds and other minorities, while fighters patrolled the sky. The missions may have become routine, but the threat in Iraq was very real. On several occasions, Iraqi surface-to-air missile sites and antiaircraft artillery emplacements tracked aircraft using radar, and in some instances actually fired. The task force frequently responded by attacking such threats with anti-radiation missiles or cluster bombs.

In August 1996 the most serious fighting to date broke out in northern Iraq between the PUK and KDP, ending a US-brokered cease-fire. An escalation of skirmishes between the two main Kurdish factions, the KDP and PUK, occurred between 17-22 August 1996 prompting the KDP to make an unexpected and dangerous move. On 31 August KDP leadership "made a deal with the devil" as it invited the Iraqi army to attack the city of Irbil, under control by the PUK. Claiming that the PUK was receiving active Iranian support, the KDP leader, Marsoud Barzani, appealed to Baghdad for assistance. Saddam Hussein launched his forces into the "Provide Comfort" zone. They quickly turned the tide in favor of the KDP.

The attack between the Kurdish groups placed the US and other coalition members into a very uncomfortable predicament. On 2 September, the CTF pulled the few remaining personnel left in northern Iraq and launched Operation DESERT STRIKE against Iraqi military targets in retaliation to the attack on Irbil. B-52 aircraft from the 2BW and USN ships in the Gulf launched 27 cruise missiles against targets in southern Iraq. Two Navy ships launched 14 Tomahawk missiles, while two B-52s fired 13 conventionally armed cruise missiles. President Clinton also ordered the Southern Watch no-fly zone extended one degree further north to 33 degrees north, which meant a line just south of Baghdad.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/provide_comfort_2.htm


You pobably don't even know that barzani and talabani carried diplomatic Turkish passaports until recently and their trips out of N. Iraq wad mostly through Turkey. :roll:

[4X4Driver]

Yes they (the Americans) knew that this was a safehouse, and they did visit it many times before. As a matter of fact I heard that the people inside thought the Americans where coming to visit not to arrest them. The building was strapped with explosives as well.

They were there half hour before the incident drinking tea with the Turks..

[Kradder]

A small Turkish unit was placed in N. Iraq to observe this fragile ceasefire. So their presence there were not illegal as you're trying guess. You probably don't have any knowledge of this since all happened before you were born.



I don't have any knowledge over my own land? Make me laugh more.
This Turkish "unit" you mention was allowed to maintain some small outposts 5-6 kms from the Turkish border in 1997, not in the middle of a city 200 kms from the Turkish border where there was no confrontation anyway.





This is a confidential briefing regarding events in Northern Iraq where a major row has broken out between the United States’ and Turkish governments.

Briefly what happened is that this weekend US soldiers arrested eleven Turkish commandos during a raid on Turkish premises in Sulaimaniya. The Americans also seized 15 kilos of explosives, sniper rifles, grenades and several maps of Kirkuk. The maps had circles drawn around positions near the governor's residence.

The point about the maps is that according to Kurdish intelligence sources the Turkish soldiers were involved in a plot to assassinate the newly elected Kurdish governor of Kirkuk. They say that the Turkish government wanted to destabilise the political situation so that Turkish forces could enter the region on the excuse of restoring order.

The Turkish reaction has been pretty volatile. In Ankara yesterday the Turkish Army Chief of Staff was clearly furious. He spoke of a "crisis of confidence" in his government’s relations with the US. Turkish newspapers were considerably more outspoken. Headlines in the national dailies branded the American forces as "Rambos" and "ugly Americans".
As for the Americans - although Washington’s reaction was more restrained, the incident has revived old resentments about Turkey’s refusal to support the war in Iraq.

As you can imagine it has also increased US concern over Turkish designs on Kurdish-dominated northern Iraq. These have been growing since April when US soldiers in Kirkuk intercepted a Turkish Special Forces unit trying to smuggle arms into the city.

The eleven commandos were returned to Turkey yesterday after a half-hour telephone conversation between the Turkish Prime Minister and the American Vice-President. But relations between the two countries are still strained.

Turkish troops have been in northern Iraq since the 1990s to hunt down Turkish Kurdish separatists. But Turkey’s opposition to the Iraq war means they are excluded from American plans for post-war Iraq. This spells the end of the Turkish army’s scheme to create a 12-mile buffer zone inside Iraq where it could operate against border-crossing Turkish Kurds.
In fact post-war Kirkuk has been something of a success story. The governor, a Kurd, heads a multi-ethnic governing council and the local Kurds and Turkomens seem to be enjoying relatively good relations.

http://www.wmin.ac.uk/sshl/pdf/BosnianAC0704.pdf


So far for anyone 'buying' my opinions.

These Turkish insurgents were there illegaly as confirmed by both Kurdish and American forces and should be happy that there wasn't an air raid as there was for Ansar al-Islam (or any other terrorist group) at the time. Lucky for you, we have leaders that release figures like them easily.

[4X4Driver]

I don't have any knowledge over my own land? Make me laugh more.

Having a knowledge and telling the truth is obviously two different concepts..and you just prove this. The Turkish unit was there legally since the beginning of the provide comfort deal (as we provided comfort for you, while in return you provided comfort for the pkk.)


This Turkish "unit" you mention was allowed to maintain some small outposts 5-6 kms from the Turkish border in 1997, not in the middle of a city 200 kms from the Turkish border where there was no confrontation anyway.

Put all the unspecific pro-kurd "articles" aside and just use logic;(btw, smart move providing a link from Wmin which used an unspecific pro-kurd article for an language examination) ;) Turkish unit was there for the last 10 years or so and US gov't was in contact with them before and after the Iraq operation. Even when one just uses logic, you won't be able to sell your "illegal presence" propaganda...they could not be in the same spot with fully open presence for 10 years...if they were "illegal" ;)

P.S. Btw, they're actually still there.

[Kradder]

Put all the unspecific pro-kurd "articles" aside and just use logic

How weak to call it "pro-Kurd" and jump to other unrelated stories when items confiscated from the Turkish insurgents were confirmed by the US army.



But today, senior American officials cast the incident in a different light, saying the Turkish soldiers appeared to have been involved in a plot to assassinate an American-backed Iraqi official.

Speaking on the condition of anonymity, a senior Defense Department official said the soldiers who stormed the Turkish compound in Sulaimaniya on Friday were ''acting on intelligence about possible illicit activities that were being planned against municipal officials in the region.''

A senior American military official, also speaking on the condition of anonymity, confirmed this account, saying the plot appeared to be aimed at the governor of Kirkuk, a nearby city.


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/07/world/turkey-says-us-has-agreed-free-11-soldiers-suspected-plot-kill-kurdish-aide.html


I don't think you will ever agree to anything which has Turkish guilt, so I'll keep it here.

[paracrusader]

The incident described above was unfortunate. Without going into too much detail, I will say that the American commander had an incredibly volitile situation on his hands, with Kurds, Arabs, Turkomen, and others on the brink of open fighting throughout northern Iraq. The presence of another armed faction, allied or not, especially one who was not operating in the interest of achieving order, was determined to be inflammatory for many involved parties. This is also based on other incidents which seem to be conveniently forgotten, even as far south as Kirkuk. The Turkish soldiers were not treated badly in any of those incidents. Turkey was and is our ally, and everyone is well aware of that. It would seem that the media sensationalized the story a bit, a story which should have been kept private.

[SHAM]

If I can borrow the secret service, I will visit Turkey too:)

[m.i.t]

That said, I have a question for the Turkish members here, how do you think that Obama is ready to take the Turkish side in the Turkish/Kurdish conflict? Do you think he will be mediating or taking a side?http://www.krg.org/grafik/draw_image.aspx?intMaxHeight=400&intWidth=430&strImage=/grafik/uploaded/2009/President_Barack_Obama_Masoud_Barzani_Baghdad_2009_04_01.jpg

Kradder .

How may times were you banned by mods for terorism advocating here ?

4 or 5 times ? Are you dumb ? You still keep on that weird behave ...

Pr.Obama didnt mention any Turkish-Kurdish conflict which also absent .

He said US is aganist all kind terorism which included PKK terorism ...

You can not imply teror oragnisation PKK is representive Kurds in Mp.NET...

Pr.Obama said clearly said US is beside Turkey aganist terorism and US will keep on to give new armaments to Turkey fighting aganist terorism such as Reaper UAV s and paveway ll LGB s and live satellite inteligence ...

Also AH-64 apaches were porposed to Turkey ...It seems US took a side as you can see...

[4X4Driver]

How weak to call it "pro-Kurd" and jump to other unrelated stories when items confiscated from the Turkish insurgents were confirmed by the US army.

Weakness is; calling the Turkish troops "Insurgents" when every article you posted so far refers them as soldiers..that's weakness. Why you do this?..because you know the fact that you'll get Americans to do almost anything when you label ppl as "insurgents". Same with the so called "Intelligence" on the "assaination". It was just created by the kurds...there was no such intell.

[deli_dumrul]

The only insurgents in the area that I know of are the goat-f*cking, flea infested human scum (sorry, I meant freedom fighters) on Mount Kandil and surrounding camps. Now that the snow cover is lifting, they started moving again. I think they need a good bath... Too bad Erdogan is busy showing Obama Hagia Sofia.

I wonder what is Obama's policy regarding cave dwellers... Or should I say, does he have a choice? Kradder, I think you should embrace your marxist / communist roots once again... Because you need to find a new sugar daddy. Here is the closest one:

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff163/deli_dumrul/putin.jpg

The French, once referring to Apo as Mr. President, is a good choice too.

But as far as I am concerned, your hide was/is/will be sold. So try to learn about not counting on anybody else... You can read the history books about late Turkish history; there are a lot of good examples there...

[Kradder]

The incident described above was unfortunate. Without going into too much detail, I will say that the American commander had an incredibly volitile situation on his hands, with Kurds, Arabs, Turkomen, and others on the brink of open fighting throughout northern Iraq. The presence of another armed faction, allied or not, especially one who was not operating in the interest of achieving order, was determined to be inflammatory for many involved parties. This is also based on other incidents which seem to be conveniently forgotten, even as far south as Kirkuk. The Turkish soldiers were not treated badly in any of those incidents. Turkey was and is our ally, and everyone is well aware of that. It would seem that the media sensationalized the story a bit, a story which should have been kept private.

We do recognize that Turkey is an ally of you and that you are dedicated to its territorial integrity. Fair enough.
We have a matter of national sovereignty as well. That is, like the Turks complain about PKK attacking Turkish soil, we have the right to defend ourselves as being the Kurdistan Federation of Iraq and have the right to advocate our territorial integrity and sovereignty.

Any foreign infiltration in our territory, and especially in post-2003 Iraq, is seen as a direct threat to national security and sovereignty. Whether it is Iranian agents supplying Shia groups, or Wahhabis entering from Saudi Arabia or in this case Turkish agents with explosives and assassination plans are seen as insurgents. This is the reality in Iraq that most of you understand well.

[Hollis]

We do recognize that Turkey is an ally of you and that you are dedicated to its territorial integrity. Fair enough.
We have a matter of national sovereignty as well. That is, like the Turks complain about PKK attacking Turkish soil, we have the right to defend ourselves as being the Kurdistan Federation of Iraq and have the right to advocate our territorial integrity and sovereignty.

.


Kradder, just stay out of Turkish Threads, It is not good for you. You have taken this thread off topic.

Any more suspensions on this forum could lead to you being banned. Let the politicians fight for the Kurds.


Back to topic, President Obama's visit to Turkey.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Obama visit a big story, says former ambassador to Turkey

ISTANBUL - When U.S. President Barack Obama invoked his country’s treatment of Native Americans in discussing the "events of 1915" before the Turkish Parliament, it was a first for a U.S. leader, says a retired American diplomat.

To former Ambassador to Ankara Mark Parris, Obama’s visit to Turkey was a big story. Parris shared his thoughts on the event in an interview with Sevim Demiray, from daily Milliyet.

According to Parris, it was Obama’s responsibility during the visit to avoid words and deeds that could derail the sensitive and promising negotiations underway as Turkey and Armenia seek to normalize relationships. “The President’s point, of course, was that ultimately nations are better off confronting the dark chapters they all have in their pasts,” Parris said. “I think he should be taken at his word when he says he has not changed his views on the events in Turkey’s Ottoman past that he has called ‘genocide.’”

Parris said the Obama administration takes Turkey very seriously and that the revival of a U.S.-Turkey partnership that goes beyond rhetoric would be an important development throughout the region and the world. He said the main reasons for Obama’s visit could be categorized in terms of five main topics: Afghanistan-Pakistan, Iran, Russia and strategic energy issues, Israeli-Arab relations and overall U.S. relations with the Muslim world.

Replying to a question about the comments made by some Western observers, who have said that Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s reactions at Davos and to Anders Fogh Rasmussen’s NATO candidacy had hurt the Turkish leader’s image, Parris said, “I think the Davos incident made a negative impression on American audiences.... As for the Rasmussen affair, most Americans are probably unaware that there was one. The only people inclined to draw conclusions about the Prime Minister from that episode were those who had done so before Rasmussen became an issue.”

Parris also emphasized that though Erdoğan’s performance – as conveyed by the media – made a strong, and generally negative impression on American audiences, “predictions that Davos would destroy Turkish-Israeli relations or undercut Turkey’s regional influence were clearly exaggerated.”

“My impression is that the damage to Turkish-Israeli relations has in fact been contained,” the former ambassador added. “Even if Israeli confidence in Turkey’s impartiality has suffered – and it probably has – Israeli leaders value their strategic relationship with Turkey.”

Influence in Afghanistan, Pakistan

Turkey has been a big help, and still could aid in the U.S. war in Afghanistan, Parris said, adding that one major reason for the visit was an awareness of Turkey’s long-standing influence on both sides of the Afghan-Pakistan border (as reflected in the trilateral meeting President Gül convened just before Obama arrived), the role the country had played in the International Security Assistance Force, or ISAF, and the kind of “soft power” Turkey could bring to this effort.

Defining these vital contributions as the Obama administration got its Afghanistan/Pakistan strategy underway, Parris added that even if Turkey says no to the U.S. request to send combat troops to Afghanistan, it would not be a threat to the potential partnership, as other types of contributions to the effort would be welcomed by the United States.

In response to a question about Nagorno-Karabakh, a region that is the subject of a longstanding dispute between Armenia and Azerbaijan, Parris said the U.S. would be prepared to encourage both countries to show the necessary flexibility to reach an agreement. “That’s what ‘full support’ implies,” he said.

Parris also answered a question about Obama using the term “Kurdish minority” at speech he gave to students in Istanbul, saying it was a slip of the tongue. The former ambassador added that the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK, would remain on the U.S. terrorism list and that the U.S. would continue to cooperate with Turkey in its effort to defeat the PKK.

Mark Parris was the American ambassador to Ankara between 1997 and 2000 and was known as the architect of a major expansion of relations between Turkey and the United States, culminating in President Clinton's designation of Turkey as a "strategic partner" in November 1999. Parris played a pivotal role in defining and advancing U.S. objectives with respect to the Baku-Tiblisi-Ceyhan oil-export pipeline and an associated gas pipeline.


http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/11416685.asp?gid=244

[Karaahmetoglu]

The only insurgents in the area that I know of are the goat-f*cking, flea infested human scum (sorry, I meant freedom fighters) on Mount Kandil and surrounding camps. Now that the snow cover is lifting, they started moving again. I think they need a good bath... Too bad Erdogan is busy showing Obama Hagia Sofia.

I wonder what is Obama's policy regarding cave dwellers... Or should I say, does he have a choice? Kradder, I think you should embrace your marxist / communist roots once again... Because you need to find a new sugar daddy. Here is the closest one:

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff163/deli_dumrul/putin.jpg

The French, once referring to Apo as Mr. President, is a good choice too.

But as far as I am concerned, your hide was/is/will be sold. So try to learn about not counting on anybody else... You can read the history books about late Turkish history; there are a lot of good examples there...

More like French, (or other EU nation that loves cave dwellers) as you said Turkey and Russia are good allies.