Every Soldier/Marine an Infantryman

[GearGod]

Alright whats up with that statement? I hear somewhere that they say that regardless of their MOS, every soldier/marine starts out as an INFANTRYMAN/RIFLEMAN. As far as I know, they only know the BASICS, basic information thats covered in this manual and tought at BASIC TRAINING:

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/21-75/toc.htm

Now, if they say every soldier/marine is an infantryman, does that mean that everyone in the Army/Marines knows infantry tactics/drills such as attacking, ambushing, MOUT training, etc. Stuff that is covered in these manuals?

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/7-8/toc.htm
http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-06.11/toc.htm

It doesnt make sense

[...]

I think when you heard that statement it was refering to the Marines. "Every Marine a rifleman" is one of our creeds. Every Marine regardless of MOS could be pressed into service as a rifleman. During the Korean War at the Chosin Resovoir cooks, bakers, and candlestick makers (REMFs) were doing alot of the fighting and the Chinese were very suprised at how good the were. Which was do in part to the high standards Marines place on shooting qualifications.As for officers EVERY Marine officer is first an infantry officer. They all go to TBS regardless of thier future job be it pilot, finance officer, or even JAG officer. After TBS they then go to thier MOS school where if selected for an infantry slot they specialize even further on leading infantry units.

[FallenAngel]

this is true...

Every Marine- man, woman, white, black, purple, etc. - qualifies on the rifle range.

This is because- from my understanding- that Marines operate as a first assault force and can/have been/might be overrun or depleted to the point were rear echelon troops like cooks, etc. are needed for no other reason than to fill out the ranks.

As for the Army...I dunno. They've lowered their standards alot to allow for - dare i say it- "political correctness" to allow more women, etc to pass.

I DO know that the 75th Ranger Reg. requires all members to qualify as infantrymen. In Mogh. in '93, the cooks and techs went out looking for their downed comrades. They obviously knew how to fight, otherwise they would not have volunteered.

[Apogee]

Thats pretty freaking condesending to say that the Army has lowered its standards. Wow.

But on the topic, when the **** hits the fan, everyone is a grunt. If you're tank gets hit, now you're a ground pounder, same for birds. Look at what happened in Mog. 3/75 had its cooks and pack clerks manning M2s on top of Hummers. Thats the ideal. Does it always happen? No. Not in the Army or the Marines or any other branch of service. MOS's have a specialty and that specialty is essential for that branch to continue to function. So they do much more with that specialty and less with infantry tactics.

[JockularFiasco]

Understand, in combat Marines are used more often in various MOS' then any other branch. From experience, it is indeed the case that whatever MOS your in, your always a rifleman 1st. And each yr you continue to qualify @ the shooting range. Now the 75th is a combat force so all personnel are apt to the use of combat. Non-combat batallions, divisions, etc... are not combat trained in other branches. Only in the USMC. Not degrading other branches mind you. With all do respect Fallen Angel, and correct me if I'm mistaken. But you are a cadet, not an actual graduate of West Point or bootcamp. Only your history books can tell you whats reported. For us individuals that have been through such conflicts as Grenada, Panama, Desert Storm, Somalia or Viet Nam for that matter, can offer solid contributions to what happens in warfare.

[JockularFiasco]

Pardon me.....USMA....not fallen angel :oops:

[Apogee]

Jocku,
First off, I don't know of any support divisions. Sure there are support battalions, but wouldn't you rather have an intprator who actually knows his/her language then an interprator whos a commando. I'd go with the knowledgable interprator.

Second, yes, I am a cadet, but as such, I've graduated from a boot camp. Everyday I interact with officers and NCOs who are coming and going from the force. I don't remeber many combat units stationed in Philly. Maybe you're a history buff or a vet, I don't know. Either way, that only qualifies you to talk about the past and not what is currently happening in the military.

Sorry, gotta defend the Army. Also, does Marines have a proper SOF? yeah, didn't think so.

[FallenAngel]

dude...what I meant by lowered standards is in reference to the lowred enlistment quota and the lowered standards for non-combatant troops.

Also...the Marines don't have Spec Ops uits per say....but they DO have force recon which is considered an elite unit- although not under teh SOCOM banner.

Also, the Marines are under the Navy....and the Navy has DevGru and SEALs.

[...]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20021219-9999_1mi19specops.html

[...]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20021219-9999_1mi19specops.html

[Ratamacue]

Who cares if the Marine Corps didn't have a "proper" Special Ops Force under SOCOM? Force Recon is still made up of some of the most badass guys in the US Military. They're no less well-trained than the Army Special Forces or SEALs. In fact, most of the training is almost exactly the same.

[Dupre]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, if they say every soldier/marine is an infantryman, does that mean that everyone in the Army/Marines knows infantry tactics/drills such as attacking, ambushing, MOUT training, etc. Stuff that is covered in these manuals?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes.... What doesn't make sense?.. The Infantry trains in all of the above tactics and more...

[Sir Nob]

Adam, back to your original question, the saying is every Marine is a rifleman, and it comes from this. A) Every Marine has to qualify once a year on the rifle range from private to general, from cook to pilot, (dont know what the Army does.)
B) Yes, after boot camp every Marine goes to Marine combat training for 1 month of patroling, ambushing and generally living in the field for a month, only after this does a Marine go on to his MOS training.
Semper Fi

[100%Marine]

Bull, the Army uses separate boots for infantry and support units unlike the Corps. It has been only recent that the Army has been training the support units with infantry skills. This is based on the Marines MCT and Small Unit Tactics at Quantico.

[96B]

The Army hates on Marines just because their beloved Rangers SOF are pretty much equally rivaled by the regular 0300 Marine.

With regards to the Rangers doing the combat drop to raid the Kandahar airport, thats one of the very few specialties that Rangers do that typical Marines dont.

Also, the USMC may not have an official SOF, but Force Recon is an elite unit and I'd also like to make the point of you always hearing about the Army on the news, SF this, Rangers that, when is the last time you heard about Force Recon? Exactly...

[digrar]

Field Marshall Viscount Wavell said in 1945 " the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm."


Every marine may be a rifleman but you wouldn't want to take them anywhere. Put them in a weapons pit and give them a rifle and they will probably do the job for you but you wouldn't want to drag a cook or a truckie out on a five day fighting patrol.
It takes a good 18 months to get a soldier fully prepared to walk all day with a pack on his back, moving silently through the bush, remaining alert and still able to fight at all times. Confident that he can use all the weapon systems in his platoon, take over the radio at any time and call in supporting fire, take over from his comanders if the need arises, to know the standard operating procedures of his unit.
These things can't be learnt in a couple of weeks or a month at basic training.

[...]

Tell that to the cooks and motor t Marines that were at the Chosin Resovoir.

[Apogee]

I think its one thing to perform in an emergency situtation, like the Marine supply guys at Chosin Resovoir, or the supply guys in Mog. Its a seperatly different thing to send a cook or pack clerk out on a patrol. The difference is that in an emergency, those mail handlers revert back to their basic soldier skills. For an infantryman, there is much more to know/embody then just the basic soldier skills. Just my opinion.

[100%Marine]

USMA what are they teaching you on the Hudson???!! We're discussing strategy. Remember one of maxims of war- your column of attack is the same as your column of defense. Any weakness along your column is subject to attack. The rear must be able to defend itself or be a constant target of the enemy. Of course, no commander would send a mess specialist out in the bush while grunts are about. The point is every Marine is capable of securing his/her part of the column.
For example graduates of EOD regardless of branch attends the Small Unit Class at Quantico. In this class non-infantry units learn the lessons of the Frozin Chosin. Also, in the Marine Corps every non infantry Marines attend a mini SOI, called Marine Combat Training.
Now, I understand Army infantry boot is two weeks longer than the Corps. Also, I understand that TRADOC has placed more emphasis on infantry skills that the Marines in boot (Marine emphasis is on ethos). In fairness, all Marines recieve infantry training, Army noninfantry do not...none...zilch. Only recently has the Army made steps to include or emphasize infantry skills to non grunts in a potenial Marine like MCT school. I dont know what theyll call it. My point is the Army's underbelly is much softer than the Corps.
Were on the same team, but damn those black knights.

[papabear]

If you give Col. Hackworth any credance, here are his observations on BT for non-Infantry:

http://www.hackworth.com/article04032002c.html

[Scrim]

Good article.Sad but true. Its not necasarily the Armys fault. America is just to soft. We live in our own world of comfort and luxury, this is wonderfull if your a civilian, but has no place in the military. Unfortuanatly mothers of America have forced this softness onto the military as well. We certainly have the best equipped troops in the world, but anyone who thinks we have the best trained basic ( i repeat basic, not SOF ) troops in the world is sadly misguided...

[devildog-2005]

ok im a u.s. marine ill put this topic to lie every marine IS a rifleman and is trained in infantry tactatics and train every year and i dont mean going to qualify with your rifle every year. plain and simple any pog (personal other than gurnt) can go to a hot zone and withing a verry short peroid of time be able to operate in unisin with the grunt unit he was atached and as for the army they will never have the success rate that the marine corps enjoys because they dont train the same way and do not beleave in small unit leadership as for the cadet you are not a soldier/marine yet so dont pretend to have a clue what MY marine corps is capable of acomplishing i have!! i have seen cooks mechanics truckdrivers admin geeks you name it get atached to security units because the marine corps units provide there own security so everytime something is built in a combat zone the combat engineers dont get grunts to protect they do it them selves!! and as for being soft how ca you say that when we wiped the worlds 3rd largest army off the face of the plannet so fast if a marine would have stoped to go to the head by the time he was done the war was won

[banksster]

devildog, as a word of advice from a fellow new guy here...

READ THE POST DATES BEFORE REPLYING

this topic is over 2 1/2 years old