"If only i had a gun"Friday 10pm ABC

[MaverickCowboy]

http://www.nt2099.com/J-ENT/news/american-entertainment/if-i-only-had-a-gun-on-abc-news-2020-410/

IF I ONLY HAD A GUN, ON ABC NEWS’ 20/20 (4/10)
April 8, 2009 by J!-ENT
“IF I ONLY HAD A GUN,” A REPORT BY DIANE SAWYER
AND DAVID MUIR, ON ABC NEWS’ “20/20,” FRIDAY, APRIL 10
When it comes to protecting yourself, you may think “if I only had a gun.” But if you had a gun, could you protect yourself in a crisis? How easy is it to obtain a gun? And what explains the nearly irresistible attraction of young people to firearms? Diane Sawyer investigates, with reporting by David Muir, on “If I Only Had a Gun,” airing on “20/20,” FRIDAY, APRIL 10 (10:00-11:00 p.m., ET) on the ABC Television Network. The hour also features hidden camera experiments and expert analysis.
There are an estimated 250-300 million guns in civilian hands in this country - almost enough to arm every man, woman and child in America. In fact, Americans are believed to own a third of all the existing firearms in the world. And that number is quickly growing: Last year there were 12 million background checks of people buying guns or getting or renewing a permit. America also has the highest rate of gun violence in the industrial world. Reports include:
Why shouldn’t we all have guns? Almost half of all handgun owners say self defense is their primary reason for owning a gun. But can they get to their gun in time when in a crisis situation? Can they aim accurately? And what is the chance they will hit someone innocent instead of their target? “20/20″ set up a hidden camera experiment to see what would happen if everyone, including those with gun training, had a gun when an armed intruder bursts through the door. Diane Sawyer reports.
How easy is it to buy a gun? In 33 states across the country, anyone can walk into one of the hundreds of gun shows held each year and buy a gun without a background check run and no questions asked. In the two years since Omar Samaha’s sister, Reema, was murdered at Virginia Tech, he has been fighting to close the gun show loophole, a step the Virginia governor and other authorities urged lawmakers to take. Has anything changed? David Muir follows Omar as he buys guns in Virginia at a gun show. How many can he procure in an hour and how many questions will he be asked?
The effect of gun violence on one neighborhood, as seen through the eyes of a child: Ten-year-old Damon Weaver is a pint-size reporter with a supersized dream: to interview President Obama about what he plans to do about the gun violence that has torn apart his town of Pahokee, Florida. In the last year, 14 people were murdered in his neighborhood. To see the devastating effects of gun violence in one community through the eyes of a child, Damon reports first-hand for “20/20,” interviewing friends who’ve lost family members, townspeople, as well as the sheriff’s office about problems and solutions. Diane Sawyer first met Weaver during the network’s Presidential Inauguration coverage in January.
What is the irresistible attraction of young people to guns? It is not uncommon to hear news reports about young people playing with their parent’s guns and accidentally shooting their friends, sometimes killing them. Statistics show that more 18-22 year olds die from accidental shootings than any other age group. Shouldn’t college aged kids know better than to play with a gun? “20/20″ puts some of these kids to the test in a provocative experiment during which they find hidden guns while cleaning out a garage. Who will tell the adult about their find, who will pack it away without a word and who will play with the gun? And does peer pressure factor into unsafe behavior? Muir reports.

[Dilla2k]

Damon Weaver is a faggot.

[PSG-1]

Oh, yes, those "#%¤#" guns, killing so many people. Sure a ban will help, I'm so sure that people will get so scared to kill someone with an illegal gun, banning guns will most sertanly end all murders and violence. It's much better to use a legal gun in crimes, it's not so serious then. Same with those high cap magazines, I would never use a 30 round magasine if I will kill someone, that is illegal. Better use a 10 round legal magasine, oh yeah.

Stupid laws.....

[Soldat_Américain]

He's gonna have a lot of issues with changing the Gun laws in VA. However one of my friends had said if they'd been allowed to have guns they could have stopped the shooter at 'Tech. However in reality that would not have been possible, because I don't believe those students would be armed, because they were going to class.

PSG-1, Check your spelling bro, just a heads up man.

[Geezah]

And what explains the nearly irresistible attraction of young people to firearms?

I can tell you right now it probably has more to do with goody-goody numpties trying to ban them. It is no different than putting that bloody offensive language label on a cd.

You demonize something and then suddenly there is an added attraction to it.

When ever my brothers come over from the UK they always want to go out shooting. The thing is I do it the right way and act like a bloody Nazis so they know not to take it lightly.

All that said, if 20/20 had bothered to do any hard research ont he subject of self defense maybe they would have come across this website. Civilian Gun Self-Defense Blog (http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html)

There are 2.5million defensive uses of firearms a year for a reason, the people are ready and willing to protect themselves, their families from those that would do them harm.

[PSG-1]

PSG-1, Check your spelling bro, just a heads up man.


Sorry if there are errors, I'm not english speaking. But I promise to do my best. Thanks for telling me, by the way.

[tea drinker]

He's gonna have a lot of issues with changing the Gun laws in VA. However one of my friends had said if they'd been allowed to have guns they could have stopped the shooter at 'Tech. However in reality that would not have been possible, because I don't believe those students would be armed, because they were going to class.

Hmm, I'd be pretty worried in that situation, even if you shot the shooter some other nervous nellie could blow you away thinking that YOU are the bad guy. OTOH if you only arm the teacher then the nutcase will *probably* off him first because he knows he is armed.
The rise of madness is not easily dealt with. But I'd start with doing more background checks on weapon ownership 12 million per annum vs 350 million guns? that's way too low. Increase the price for the licence/permit to make it up.

[Geezah]

Hmm, I'd be pretty worried in that situation, even if you shot the shooter some other nervous nellie could blow you away thinking that YOU are the bad guy.

COULD is almost as big as IF, and I'm not aware of this ever happening, it may have but not that I'm aware.



OTOH if you only arm the teacher then the nutcase will *probably* off him first because he knows he is armed.

How will the nutcase know which teacher is carrying?

Will there be an anouncement prior to class starting each morning to let the kids know who is carry CONCEALED?

[Bia]

"If I only had a gun" pretend senerios are fun but illogical.
We could make the "If only he didnt have a gun" stories trump them by leaps and bounds.

Far more people are injured/killed by accidents/emotionalism as opposed to a gun actually saving their life, far far more.
I advocate anyone can own a gun. Just know odds are against you....not in your favor.

[deagle]

why don't they have more cops patrolling instead of on the side giving out speeding tickets. the North Hollywood shooters were spotted before they made a getaway, and the police cordoned off the area, its just that they had more firepower. if there were more local police patrolling, the bing shooter shouldve been spotted before he acted or might even have canceled the attack.

[cascade]

Once again people kill people not gun's. If someone is determined to kill they can use just about anything to accomplish that task ie: car, kitchen knife, baseball bat ect. So why take away from potential victims the right to defend themselves? Just check out the NRA's web site to see how fair the media is on the gun issue's.

[kongman]

http://www.nt2099.com/J-ENT/news/american-entertainment/if-i-only-had-a-gun-on-abc-news-2020-410/

IF I ONLY HAD A GUN, ON ABC NEWS’ 20/20 (4/10)
April 8, 2009 by J!-ENT
“IF I ONLY HAD A GUN,” A REPORT BY DIANE SAWYER
AND DAVID MUIR, ON ABC NEWS’ “20/20,” FRIDAY, APRIL 10
When it comes to protecting yourself, you may think “if I only had a gun.” But if you had a gun, could you protect yourself in a crisis? How easy is it to obtain a gun? And what explains the nearly irresistible attraction of young people to firearms? Diane Sawyer investigates, with reporting by David Muir, on “If I Only Had a Gun,” airing on “20/20,” FRIDAY, APRIL 10 (10:00-11:00 p.m., ET) on the ABC Television Network. The hour also features hidden camera experiments and expert analysis.
There are an estimated 250-300 million guns in civilian hands in this country - almost enough to arm every man, woman and child in America. In fact, Americans are believed to own a third of all the existing firearms in the world. And that number is quickly growing: Last year there were 12 million background checks of people buying guns or getting or renewing a permit. America also has the highest rate of gun violence in the industrial world. Reports include:
Why shouldn’t we all have guns? Almost half of all handgun owners say self defense is their primary reason for owning a gun. But can they get to their gun in time when in a crisis situation? Can they aim accurately? And what is the chance they will hit someone innocent instead of their target? “20/20″ set up a hidden camera experiment to see what would happen if everyone, including those with gun training, had a gun when an armed intruder bursts through the door. Diane Sawyer reports.
How easy is it to buy a gun? In 33 states across the country, anyone can walk into one of the hundreds of gun shows held each year and buy a gun without a background check run and no questions asked. In the two years since Omar Samaha’s sister, Reema, was murdered at Virginia Tech, he has been fighting to close the gun show loophole, a step the Virginia governor and other authorities urged lawmakers to take. Has anything changed? David Muir follows Omar as he buys guns in Virginia at a gun show. How many can he procure in an hour and how many questions will he be asked?
The effect of gun violence on one neighborhood, as seen through the eyes of a child: Ten-year-old Damon Weaver is a pint-size reporter with a supersized dream: to interview President Obama about what he plans to do about the gun violence that has torn apart his town of Pahokee, Florida. In the last year, 14 people were murdered in his neighborhood. To see the devastating effects of gun violence in one community through the eyes of a child, Damon reports first-hand for “20/20,” interviewing friends who’ve lost family members, townspeople, as well as the sheriff’s office about problems and solutions. Diane Sawyer first met Weaver during the network’s Presidential Inauguration coverage in January.
What is the irresistible attraction of young people to guns? It is not uncommon to hear news reports about young people playing with their parent’s guns and accidentally shooting their friends, sometimes killing them. Statistics show that more 18-22 year olds die from accidental shootings than any other age group. Shouldn’t college aged kids know better than to play with a gun? “20/20″ puts some of these kids to the test in a provocative experiment during which they find hidden guns while cleaning out a garage. Who will tell the adult about their find, who will pack it away without a word and who will play with the gun? And does peer pressure factor into unsafe behavior? Muir reports.


i dont know the figures , but prob more young ppl die after they borrow there parents car and take it for a drive ...........have they banned cars now

[MarineLAR]

why don't they have more cops patrolling instead of on the side giving out speeding tickets. the North Hollywood shooters were spotted before they made a getaway, and the police cordoned off the area, its just that they had more firepower. if there were more local police patrolling, the bing shooter shouldve been spotted before he acted or might even have canceled the attack.



He could have been outed by a traffic officer pulling him over for a violation. Crime isnt just prevented by patrol officers. Say for instance a traffic officer pulls someone over for 10 over the speed limit, and say that person is on his way to commit a gun related crime. That officers isnt just going to focus on writing the ticket. He is also looking at body language, inside the car, nervousness of the driver...etc. So during the course of writing a ticket, he could out the dude that is going to shoot some school up. A good portion of crime uncovered by traffic officers.

[Moledet]

He's gonna have a lot of issues with changing the Gun laws in VA. However one of my friends had said if they'd been allowed to have guns they could have stopped the shooter at 'Tech. However in reality that would not have been possible, because I don't believe those students would be armed, because they were going to class.

PSG-1, Check your spelling bro, just a heads up man.
Students here that own guns (or just returned for a day from reserve duty) go armed to university. Apart of that, there are armed guards at the entrance gates that check everyone that enters and if he has a gun he needs to show his license before entering.

[Laworkerbee]

If only I had an Asian prostitute.

What?

[Dilla2k]

Once again people kill people not gun's. If someone is determined to kill they can use just about anything to accomplish that task ie: car, kitchen knife, baseball bat ect. So why take away from potential victims the right to defend themselves? Just check out the NRA's web site to see how fair the media is on the gun issue's.
Thats not exactly were you go to get a fair and balanced view on gun issues. Thats like going to a KKK site to get logical views on minorities. Im all for registration if it was assured somehow they could not just kick down doors and take peoples weapons.

[Geezah]

Thats not exactly were you go to get a fair and balanced view on gun issues. Thats like going to a KKK site to get logical views on minorities. Im all for registration if it was assured somehow they could not just kick down doors and take peoples weapons.


Registration is one step closaer to confiscation.......been done before, they will try and do it again.....

[G-AWZT]

Sorry ABC I have three rifles and I feel just fine.
You know the program is going to make gun owners look like lunatic dweebs.

[tea drinker]

How will the nutcase know which teacher is carrying?

Will there be an anouncement prior to class starting each morning to let the kids know who is carry CONCEALED?
Yes - if we restrict guns to teachers - the alternative to every LUNATIC carrying, remember - the thing that got us into this mess????
Ok it will be at the teachers discretion if they carry or not, but first they would have to agree as an organisation to the option, but will they want to be a target? Will their families?

Seriously, having careless, stupid poorly trained (or no training) people carrying around weapons is no way to bring down gun crime, or gun related deaths (I was sure it was unloaded, the safety was on, I didn't think there was anyone the other side of the wall, I thought the bullets went into orbit etc etc)

If you look at it that the gun is a means to an end, do you want every kid with a chip on his shoulder carrying? It would be far better to teach people how to deal with their crap, and try and pick up on the nutcases (or people needing help)

I still say every person who wants a gun should be vetted - it's simple. Medical and legal check, then you get the gun, and a check is ran automatically at renewal time - if you've been in certain kinds of trouble the gun goes is confiscated. And the cost for posession goes up to cover the increased management costs. If you can't afford that, you can't afford a handgun. Hunting rifles seem to be used much less frequently so I think could be treated more leniently / cost less.
The idea is not to take away citizens rights to own a weapon - but to keep weapons away from criminals and sick people - so that the citizens don't HAVE to carry.

As regards the media it's a shame the people there didn't want to talk about the (financial) crisis when something could have possibly been done, or spoke out at removing depression era safeguards designed to stop bank crashes... People looking at a constant barrage of bad news, it's difficult for some to listen to, it seems impossible for others.

EDIT: It would be the person who is approved, not gun, however all guns bought by this person would be recorded against his registration, in other words subsequent guns would not cost more, but could be picked up if the guy looks like he will erupt.

[California Joe]

This was discussed ad nauseum in the thread after the VA Tech shootings.

[tea drinker]

Registration is one step closaer to confiscation.......been done before, they will try and do it again.....
It happened here, during the troubles. These days drug dealers Illegally held guns are an excuse here to put more restrictions on law abiding owners. Handguns are banned in the UK, with no apparent reduction in gun crime - on the increase IIRC.

But I believe registration helps, and unless something is done to keep weapons away from wrong hands, it will inevitably lead to confiscation/ban, media will run endless specials and expose until it reaches tipping point

[Geezah]

It happened here, during the troubles. These days drug dealers Illegally held guns are an excuse here to put more restrictions on law abiding owners. Handguns are banned in the UK, with no apparent reduction in gun crime - on the increase IIRC.

But I believe registration helps, and unless something is done to keep weapons away from wrong hands, it will inevitably lead to confiscation/ban, media will run endless specials and expose until it reaches tipping point

You covered the flaws with registration in your first paragraph.
The only people affected by the firearm laws are the law abiding. It's all about supply and demand.

[Bia]

As I slowly stop worrying about guns and gun ownership.... and take a less judgemental stance because it's true what Geezah and other say.... it only effects the law abiding.

What I am starting to find odd... recently I have found many Documentarys from England about how we Americans suckass because of our love for guns and they take an arrogant tone of judgement... why all the concern? I dont get it.

[Zoomie]

This "special" is something that seems like it should be best aired on Comedy Central, as all they're doing is cherry picking the interviews and trying to scare people with "military machine gun M16 lookalikes".

[MaverickCowboy]

i passed out and missed it. anyone see it?

[MaverickCowboy]

Sorry ABC I have three rifles and I feel just fine.
You know the program is going to make gun owners look like lunatic dweebs.

how was the show?

[G-AWZT]

how was the show?





It'll raise your blood pressure trust me. So biased it's beyond belief.

[cascade]

Thats not exactly were you go to get a fair and balanced view on gun issues. Thats like going to a KKK site to get logical views on minorities. Im all for registration if it was assured somehow they could not just kick down doors and take peoples weapons.

And just were do you find in today's media a fair and balanced view? The NRA has caught CNN red handed faking a report on the assault weapon's ban, prompting a retraction by CNN. Who else called out CNN for such a blatant distortion, certainly not CBS, NBC, ABC or MSNBC. The NRA may not be the ideal source on gun issue's, however there are not many places to get the other sides view. You can see the interview for yourself and make up your own mind at insureyourgunrights.com.

[G-AWZT]

to scare people with "military machine gun M16 lookalikes".




I loved that line "M16 lookalikes". When I heard it I laughed my butt off. Without a doubt the show was a major scare tactic to get non gun owners to support Pelosi/Obama's position on private ownership of guns.

[Arnie100]

I don't pay attention to what the media says about gun control or guns anymore, since most (if not all) is BS anyways. If someone like CNN gets caught faking a report, who else has faked reports about guns?

[Eye]

If I only had a gun...
My request is considered by police since January. I have received one refusal. I have appealed against this refusal to main commandant of the police in Warsaw and now I'm waiting for next refusal - I suppose.
There is no hope here.

[Geezah]

I don't pay attention to what the media says about gun control or guns anymore, since most (if not all) is BS anyways. If someone like CNN gets caught faking a report, who else has faked reports about guns?

The majority of those that want to ban/restrict firearms.

The NRA may be allot of things to people, but they have the most to lose if they fake information that is supplied to the public. If the NRA were caught fabricating information there would be a public hanging, so they have to make sure they are on the ball.

I remember when CCW was being pushed here, Toby Hoover our own resident Gun Control Nut was constantly harping on about how the streets would run red with blood. Still waiting....

[Geezah]

i passed out and missed it. anyone see it?

I chose not to watch it, as I thought(rightly so) that it would be allot like the NatGeo special they did on firearm ownership and would be filled with nothing but misinformation.

[LaoSexMachine]

The majority of those that want to ban/restrict firearms.

The NRA may be allot of things to people, but they have the most to lose if they fake information that is supplied to the public. If the NRA were caught fabricating information there would be a public hanging, so they have to make sure they are on the ball.

I remember when CCW was being pushed here, Toby Hoover our own resident Gun Control Nut was constantly harping on about how the streets would run red with blood. Still waiting....

That's what they said when Texas passed the CHL. The antis were saying how high noon showdowns were going to be the norm.

[Adriatick]

I just saw this program last night and the bias is certainly not very discreet.I thought the entire "school shooting" experiment was complete BS it was far too controlled for such a chaotic situation.Everyone was in on it even the "students" and it's certainly unfair to pit a police officer that has developed muscle memory and has far more hours of range time against someone who just had an afternoon of training.The student was always placed in the same position and so the officer would know exactly who to concentrate on even whilst shooting the other students hell there was even a scene where the guy walked straight up to the test subject with gun in hand "executing" him.

After that we get treated to a wonderful demonstration of Diane's reaction time and continued pounding of "you're simply not fast enough as a human being to react".I certainly feel for the little boy though he certainly is going to have a rough time in that neighborhood.

Overall there was certainly an underlying message that the program probably did not intend to propagate and that was more people need education about firearms so they don't blow their own faces off as that genius who took a flashlight to look down the barrel to check if the weapon was loaded demonstrated or when that girl just dumped a gun carelessly into a bin ..or..etc.

p.s. Is the gunshow loophole that bad? I would not know since I've never been to one.

[Lazarou]

http://www.youtube.com/v/0MX3QtumSuE

http://www.youtube.com/v/xxNRLMWkjc8

[MaverickCowboy]

.....im utterly speecheless. they are advocating doing nothing in an attack!

[Will Clark]

"If I only had a gun" pretend senerios are fun but illogical.
We could make the "If only he didnt have a gun" stories trump them by leaps and bounds.

Far more people are injured/killed by accidents/emotionalism as opposed to a gun actually saving their life, far far more.
I advocate anyone can own a gun. Just know odds are against you....not in your favor.

The opposite is actually true, as evidenced by Geezah's FBI statistic, which outweighs all accidental and bad shoots every year many many fold. Well, that and chance_of_being_injured_by_method_of_resistance.jpg

Here's another interesting statistic my state keeps track of:
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/ConvictionRatesReport2006.pdf

Several years are listed, this is just the most recent. 1 murder and 1 negligent homicide, not bad for a population of 316,000 license holders. That ranks safer than most every country in terms of murder.

I think people miss the point of a firearm, it's simply another option. Some guy sticks a gun in my face and demands my money, it's probably not the best option, so you choose another..like give him the money. It's about letting a person decide the level of protection they need to be comfortable. Guns on campus, to me, has nothing to do with saving the day. It has everything to do with me getting the hell out of danger and being able to defend myself while I do it.

[Geezah]

This incident took place in Akron, Ohio a week ago.


Finney was shot and killed Tuesday night while robbing the Your Pizza Shop on West Exchange Street in Akron.

They understand the shop owner's fears and why he shot Finney.

They don't understand how Finney, 20, stepped out of character and wound up inside the pizza parlor with his face concealed in a mask and his hand holding a sawed-off shotgun.

They understand the shop owner's first four shots. They're trying to understand the last three while reconciling the rumors floating around the West Akron neighborhood.

And finally, they're struggling with the role Finney's friend may have played in the whole plot.

Akron police are still investigating the entire incident — from Finney's robbery attempt to shop owner John Hayes' self-defense claims to Finney's friend, who is charged with obstructing justice.

''We're looking at everything, absolutely,'' said Akron police Lt. Rick Edwards. The investigation could extend for several weeks.

Meanwhile, members of Finney's family are asking for peace and answers. They don't want Hayes vilified by the neighborhood surrounding his shop. And they don't want Finney vilified, either.

Link (http://www.ohio.com/news/top_stories/42463552.html)

The store owner took care of the bad guy whilst there was a sawed off shotgun pointing in his direction.

It's a shame that the real victim in this doesn't seem to be the Pizza Store owner but the criminal according to the media outlets up north.

[Mastermind]

First, of all the "Accidental shooting" cases increase with the number of guns increasing...well, think about it. They defeat their own argument. They suggest there are tens of millions guns out there in the hands of the public and yet, ...how many accidental deaths of "Children"? Very few. They bring up the CHILDREN to inflame the issue..."Everyone loves kids...damn those dirty gun owners." It's a psy-war trick...

Second, they have not asked the thousands of people who actually did use guns to protect themselves and others…thousands of cases...and possibly, over the years, hundreds of thousands of people alive today because someone had a gun to defend themselves with.

The Luby's Cafeteria case is my exemplary case for gun ownership...legal gun ownership and it ended up creating some of the most comprehensive public gun ownership programs in the nation...Texas! The gal that lost her parents to that insane jerk who murdered so many (23 unarmed citizens) in the cafeteria that day, became a strong advocate for gun ownership and concealed carry laws to be liberalized....Why? Because, she kept thinking, along with so many other survivors and citizens outraged by the slaughter, "If I had only had a gun!"


(Susan Hupp lost both her parents in the shooting. Afterward, she lectured on the need for citizens concealed carry, and ultimately was elected to the Texas State Legislature…the gun law that was passed was a “Shall Issue” Law, which removed the discretion of local officials to permit a law abiding citizen from receiving a permit to carry a concealed weapon…Now, in Texas, if you are a law abiding citizen and you want to carry a concealed weapon, all you have to do is basically “Ask” and you will be issued the permit. MM)

I did not see the program (I consider anything from 20/20, ABC, CBS, NBC et al, to be nothing but liberal bull scatology). But, I would just about bet anything they did not mention Susan Hupp or the Luby’s massacre or the greatly reduced murders by gun in Texas since those laws were passed.

[Bia]

.....im utterly speecheless. they are advocating doing nothing in an attack!
No they're not. Not even close.

They are showing the reality... most people dont act they way they think they will when the hammer falls.


Funny too.... one male panicked and freaked... one male froze with terror, one hid and couldnt draw.. and the woman drew down and returned fire.

That's all it showed.... reality.


heheh

[Mastermind]

^^Yah, I imagine they were very, very selective in broadcasting the results. The libs always are when they have their agenda to support.

[Bia]

^^Yah, I imagine they were very, very selective in broadcasting the results. The libs always are when they have their agenda to support.Use that "imagination" hells yeah!!11

:P

[Geezah]

No they're not. Not even close.

They are showing the reality... most people dont act they way they think they will when the hammer falls.


Funny too.... one male panicked and freaked... one male froze with terror, one hid and couldnt draw.. and the woman drew down and returned fire.

That's all it showed.... reality.


heheh


Bia, time to get on board.

Civilian Gun Self Defense Blog (http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html)

Every day people going about their lives responding to armed and unarmed threats.....taking care of business.......now that is reality!

[SilentType]

So what?

Does it change the fact that the Second Amendment to our U.S. Constitution protects the individual right to own a firearm for defensive purposes? Nope.

Does it change the fact that the states have the right to decide who can carry concealed and how they can carry? Nope.

Just another news program someone dreamed up and what's funny is that more pro-Second Amendment and Concealed Carry people probably watched it than the anti's increasing their ratings.

You know you can show this stat and someone else can show another stat. You can show one incident and someone else can counter with another. We can go around and around and around. The Second Amendment is not subject to polls or studies at any given time. The right to defend yourself is a long standing "common law" recognized defense in our Courts.

If you don't like concealed carry then petition your state reps. If you don't like the Second Amendment then petition your federal reps to Amend the Constitution. If you don't think someone should have the right to self-defense as an affirmative defense then petition your state reps. Anything else is just worthless drivel and talk designed to inflame Americans and split us more apart than we already are.

[HellToupee]

If someone goes on a shooting spree the last thing you want to do is pull out a gun yourself, you will just become a target of police or another wanna be vigilante that thinks you are the shooter.

[Aerosoul]

If someone goes on a shooting spree the last thing you want to do is pull out a gun yourself, you will just become a target of police or another wanna be vigilante that thinks you are the shooter.
That's a risk depending on the situation, not a guarantee of how things will turn out. If no one else is around and a CCH can make a difference, it's that person's choice to do what they can IMO.

[wildcat]

I watched that episode of 20/20, most of it is BS twisted truth, but I do agree with some parts of it, like they spoke in a language I could understand, also they ware cloths, other than that I thought it was BS.

I am for Firearm ownership, unlicensed and registered. But I also want to make purchase of firearms better, the Loop hole needs to be closed, the only time firearms can be passed to another is family blood related, Grandparents to children or grandchildren, brother to brother (sister to sister), child to parents/ grandparents. uncle/aunts to nephew /nieces. Every thing else should have a back ground check, I think it would solve a lot of firearms getting into the wrong hands.

as for the gun man in the class augment they were showing WTF, there are many situations in life, and that was just one of them, they made out their little experiment to show all people are incapable and morons based on a small study and one situation.

[Will Clark]

If someone goes on a shooting spree the last thing you want to do is pull out a gun yourself, you will just become a target of police or another wanna be vigilante that thinks you are the shooter.

Because police are instantly at the scene of the shooting? It will be you, whatever your brought, and him.

I depend on police and other people protecting themselves to make rational decisions. What did you think the plan was, everyone whips their piece out and runs through the hallways pointing it at everyone? Or would it be more reasonable to assume the person would remain in a classroom among the masses, blending in and waiting. Or maybe that they understand the possible confusion, and won't draw until directly threatened. Or maybe they'd do something sensible/expected and get the hell away from danger. Maybe gun owners are actually rational.

And thanks for classifying anyone who cares about their personal safety as a 'wanna be vigilante'.

edit: As Aerosoul said, a firearm isn't a guarantee of coming out alive; it's just another option. I was in a classroom while the VT shootings were happening and I got to hear about it all day long. Perhaps if I was in their shoes I would have frozen up, or not drawn fast enough, or whatever, but at least I would have had a chance. I'll take that any day over being legislated out of my best shot at defending myself all because some douchebag with an agenda decided their irrational illusion of safety was more important.

[wildcat]

Because police are instantly at the scene of the shooting? It will be you, whatever your brought, and him.

I depend on police and other people protecting themselves to make rational decisions. What did you think the plan was, everyone whips their piece out and runs through the hallways pointing it at everyone? Or would it be more reasonable to assume the person would remain in a classroom among the masses, blending in and waiting. Or maybe that they understand the possible confusion, and won't draw until directly threatened. Or maybe they'd do something sensible/expected and get the hell away from danger. Maybe gun owners are actually rational.

And thanks for classifying anyone who cares about their personal safety as a 'wanna be vigilante'.
Even if the police are on scene fast, they tent to wait around for backup, they don't go rushing in to free those catch up in the fray.

[HellToupee]

Because police are instantly at the scene of the shooting? It will be you, whatever your brought, and him.

I depend on police and other people protecting themselves to make rational decisions. What did you think the plan was, everyone whips their piece out and runs through the hallways pointing it at everyone? Or would it be more reasonable to assume the person would remain in a classroom among the masses, blending in and waiting. Or maybe that they understand the possible confusion, and won't draw until directly threatened. Or maybe they'd do something sensible/expected and get the hell away from danger. Maybe gun owners are actually rational.

Thing is i don't trust people to make rational decisions when it comes to threats and guns, i would not trust anyone with out significant training to make those decisions, even those with training mistakes still happen, think of all the friendly fire incidents in war, kids shot holding toy guns etc.

It is not reasonable to expect an unexperenced untrained civilian is capable of making rational calm decisions in a high stress environment, more likely you will have a frightened panicky individual with a gun.



And thanks for classifying anyone who cares about their personal safety as a 'wanna be vigilante'.

Well a guns pretty useless for the majorty of self defence encounters unless you are prepaired with gun in hand, in which case its simply safter to run or hide than go looking for trouble.

Theres a reason police don't just rush into things when shootings happen, it gets people killed.

[MaverickCowboy]

Thing is i don't trust people to make rational decisions when it comes to threats and guns, i would not trust anyone with out significant training to make those decisions, even those with training mistakes still happen, think of all the friendly fire incidents in war, kids shot holding toy guns etc.

It is not reasonable to expect an unexperenced untrained civilian is capable of making rational calm decisions in a high stress environment, more likely you will have a frightened panicky individual with a gun.



Well a guns pretty useless for the majorty of self defence encounters unless you are prepaired with gun in hand, in which case its simply safter to run or hide than go looking for trouble.

Theres a reason police don't just rush into things when shootings happen, it gets people killed.

Of course i don't trust you to make rational decisions, your basing them on fear. Just like i would not trust anyone to ..say ban guns without significant experience to make those legislative decisions. even those with experience mistakes still happen, think of all the preventable preventable crime, Home invasions, rape, murder, hurricane aftermath and your family from looting, store robbery, stopping a crime in commission, deterring a would be mugger, stopping the sniper in Austin texas etc.

It is not reasonable to expect an unexperienced civilian to be capable of making rational calm decisions for everyone, more likely you will have a frightened panicky defenseless individual without a gun, defenseless, dead.

Well its pretty useless for the majorty of self defense from mass murder encounters unless you are prepaired with gun, in which case its simply safter to run or hide and beg for your life if your found like those in columbine. Because between taking a risk to end the threat. i rather beg for my life.

[Moledet]

If someone goes on a shooting spree the last thing you want to do is pull out a gun yourself, you will just become a target of police or another wanna be vigilante that thinks you are the shooter.
There was a Palestinian terrorist that went on a shooting spree in a Yeshiva in Israel, an IDF intelligence officer on leave that heard the gunshots and entered the place and one of the part-time students killed the terrorist. He was armed with AK-47 while they had handguns.
The interrogation concluded the following: The armed guard was stationed at the wrong gate and did nothing after the event occurred, a cop that reached the place prevented civilians from entering but again did nothing to kill the terrorist, two detectives that reached the scene only kept him busy but weren't able to hit him, only the student and IDF officer were able to kill him in the library where he killed 5 students and 17 survivors were left unharmed.
It took 15 minuets to kill him.

Don't count so much on the police.

[MaverickCowboy]

There was a Palestinian terrorist that went on a shooting spree in a Yeshiva in Israel, an IDF intelligence officer on leave that heard the gunshots and entered the place and one of the part-time students killed the terrorist. He was armed with AK-47 while they had handguns.
The interrogation concluded the following: The armed guard was stationed at the wrong gate and did nothing after the event occurred, a cop that reached the place prevented civilians from entering but again did nothing to kill the terrorist, two detectives that reached the scene only kept him busy but weren't able to hit him, only the student and IDF officer were able to kill him in the library where he killed 5 students and 17 survivors were left unharmed.
It took 15 minuets to kill him.

Don't count so much on the police.

Love Isreali's. they take care of business.
now thats common sense gun laws. : P

[Geezah]

If someone goes on a shooting spree the last thing you want to do is pull out a gun yourself, you will just become a target of police or another wanna be vigilante that thinks you are the shooter.

Any chance you could provide facts to back up your emotional arguement?

[Geezah]

Thing is i don't trust people to make rational decisions when it comes to threats and guns, i would not trust anyone with out significant training to make those decisions, even those with training mistakes still happen, think of all the friendly fire incidents in war,

Considering a large majority of LEO only shoot their firearms to qualify, I would prefer to rely on myself for defense against an immediate threat to myself or my loved ones.

While I would like to believe what you are saying the World is not so black and white.





kids shot holding toy guns etc.

I knwo of incidents in the UK where people have been shot holding table legs, but I'm not sure I have heard of kids being shot with toy firearms?



It is not reasonable to expect an unexperenced untrained civilian is capable of making rational calm decisions in a high stress environment, more likely you will have a frightened panicky individual with a gun.

Is that so?

Is this a case of projection on your part?



Well a guns pretty useless for the majorty of self defence encounters unless you are prepaired with gun in hand,

That's not true at all, I would like to see some facts to back up this idea of yours.



in which case its simply safter to run or hide than go looking for trouble.


Not that the kids at Columbine would have been able to own handguns bu they ran and hid and those two arseholes went looking for them. The outcome did not match your idea of running and hidding.



Theres a reason police don't just rush into things when shootings happen, it gets people killed.

Or in the case of Columbine because they did not respond correctly to an immediate threat peoeple died.


You need to stop putting so much faith in LE(While I have the utmost respect for them) I'm sure my buddies would not expect me to put all my faith in them to take care of me and my family.
I shoot with a few members of LE from different areas in Ohio.

[HellToupee]

Any chance you could provide facts to back up your emotional arguement?


Common sense?

Theres a reason for uniforms.

Its not that i put my faith in law enforcement, its that i have very little in the judgement of civilians when it comes to leathal force.

[Zoomie]

Common sense?

Theres a reason for uniforms.

Its not that i put my faith in law enforcement, its that i have very little in the judgement of civilians when it comes to leathal force.
And what do you base that judgment on?

[Geezah]

Common sense?

My old man tells me that common sense is not that common. I tend to agree with him.




Theres a reason for uniforms.

OK, that makes it so much better then.....



Its not that i put my faith in law enforcement, its that i have very little in the judgement of civilians when it comes to leathal force.

Do what?

I would prefer to rely on myself to protect myself and my loved ones then wait for LE to turn up after the fact to enforce the law.

[MaverickCowboy]

your wasting your breath Geezah. just let it go. save yourself a heart attack. or stroke.

[chauncy republicans]

Actually I think Geezah is having fun. :)

[MaverickCowboy]

Actually I think Geezah is having fun. :)

He exerts himself so much.

Think he should be some executive official in the NRA instead.
his energy would be alot more useful there than on the internet with a bunch of thick headed stubborn gun fearing armchair commandos.

[Geezah]

He exerts himself so much.

Actually I enjoy a healthy debate;)

Before firearms it was which family in Wing Chun/Ving Tsun was the real deal........got to be a little too much, too many people wanting to challange each other.



Think he should be some executive official in the NRA instead.
his energy would be alot more useful there than on the internet with a bunch of thick headed stubborn gun fearing armchair commandos.

I would say we have had a few success stories, Min being one of them. He's a good guy who keeps on threatening to come over and see his folks locally but it's never happened.

[MaverickCowboy]

Actually I enjoy a healthy debate;)

Before firearms it was which family in Wing Chun/Ving Tsun was the real deal........got to be a little too much, too many people wanting to challange each other.



I would say we have had a few success stories, Min being one of them. He's a good guy who keeps on threatening to come over and see his folks locally but it's never happened.


what?

also when you quoted me. it shows as it your quoting icebear.

[Bia]

Bia, time to get on board.

Civilian Gun Self Defense Blog (http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html)

Every day people going about their lives responding to armed and unarmed threats.....taking care of business.......now that is reality!Yeah that link is biased.

Unreliable.

[Will Clark]

Thing is i don't trust people to make rational decisions when it comes to threats and guns, i would not trust anyone with out significant training to make those decisions, even those with training mistakes still happen, think of all the friendly fire incidents in war, kids shot holding toy guns etc.

It is not reasonable to expect an unexperenced untrained civilian is capable of making rational calm decisions in a high stress environment, more likely you will have a frightened panicky individual with a gun.



Well a guns pretty useless for the majorty of self defence encounters unless you are prepaired with gun in hand, in which case its simply safter to run or hide than go looking for trouble.

Theres a reason police don't just rush into things when shootings happen, it gets people killed.

So your position is that you're so fearful of someone who means good to make a bad decision with a firearm, that you'd rather no one be armed when the shooting starts. What are you basing this on, all statistics prove otherwise. Think of all the friendly fire accidents by people licensed to carry...oh right, they're extremely rare. So far there have been zero accidents with lawful owners carrying on campus, and in the few cases where a civilian used a firearm on campus to stop a crime, they did so without making any mistakes.

Given all statistics to the contrary, yes, it is unreasonable to make that assumption. Sure, it COULD happen, but the likelihood is low.

What do you mean the majority? And as I said, so what? It's just another option, why shouldn't I have it? I already posted statistics in this thread that showed the good judgment of CHL holders, why don't you post up your source that you used to form your opinion.

Well, if a shooting happens near me I won't really have a choice of whether to rush in or not will I? And what's your point, I said that people weren't likely to do that.

[Geezah]

Yeah that link is biased.

Unreliable.

Are you kidding me, how can actual news reports from around the Country be unreliable?

If it was the NRA I could maybe agee...........

[Bia]

Are you kidding me, how can actual news reports from around the Country be unreliable?

If it was the NRA I could maybe agee...........
I have used "actual reports information" in more than one of my comments and your reply was "News reports are from bias media"


You prove my point.

[Will Clark]

Yeah that link is biased.

Unreliable.

Each incident has a link to the local paper running the story. There may be bias behind the concept for the site, but I'd hardly say that the information is unreliable. Just because they dedicate themselves to reporting on one subject doesn't take away from the weight such a large number of incidents should have on a conversation like this.

I have a feeling I'm on your ignore list :-/

[Mastermind]

Thing is i don't trust people to make rational decisions when it comes to threats and guns, i would not trust anyone with out significant training to make those decisions, even those with training mistakes still happen, think of all the friendly fire incidents in war, kids shot holding toy guns etc.

It is not reasonable to expect an unexperenced untrained civilian is capable of making rational calm decisions in a high stress environment, more likely you will have a frightened panicky individual with a gun.



Well a guns pretty useless for the majorty of self defence encounters unless you are prepaired with gun in hand, in which case its simply safter to run or hide than go looking for trouble.

Theres a reason police don't just rush into things when shootings happen, it gets people killed.
Clearly, the above comments were made by a person with absolutely no fire arm experience what-so-ever...NONE! Laughable that such a neophyte would make comments on this subject.

[Moledet]

I have used "actual reports information" in more than one of my comments and your reply was "News reports are from bias media"


You prove my point.
If only I had a gun... ;)

[Geezah]

what?

also when you quoted me. it shows as it your quoting icebear.

Corrected, my bad...

[Bia]

Each incident has a link to the local paper running the story. There may be bias behind the concept for the site, but I'd hardly say that the information is unreliable. Just because they dedicate themselves to reporting on one subject doesn't take away from the weight such a large number of incidents should have on a conversation like this.

I have a feeling I'm on your ignore list :-/No sir putting people on ignore isnt my style.

You missed the point.
Whenever any opposition towards an issue Geezah doesnt agree with is brought forth.... pure facts... he claims "Biased media" and puts his blinders back on.

When he finds a media report backing his claims....all of the sudden that specific portion of media is reliable.


There's no debate to... ugh.... forget it.



LOL..Moldet gets it :P

[Geezah]

I have used "actual reports information" in more than one of my comments and your reply was "News reports are from bias media"


You prove my point.

What point, that the majority of the media love Obama, but links to firearm related crimes where victims fight back and are triumphant is somehow the same?

Gun Control Network is biast, US Department of Justice is a reliable unbiast source in my mind, what would you prefer Howdy Doody?

ABC tried to say if only I had a gun and tried an experiement, I provided a link to prove that people every day with a firearm put in a bad situation responded with like or greater force, and did not shoot their toes off. SO how exactly are ABC proving something that every day igoes against what they are trying to push to the public?

[Bia]

how can actual news reports from around the Country be unreliable?


the majority of the media love Obama,


the media is biased




Self Pwned^

End of debate.

[Laworkerbee]

Self Pwned^

End of debate.

Bia,

please respect your elders.

[MaverickCowboy]

Self Pwned^

End of debate.

how do you report with bias about self defense with a gun?

1.Criminal
2.Victim with gun.
3.Victim Produces gun/defends self.
4.Defended/crime ended/deterred.

[Bia]

how do you report with bias about self defense with a gun?

1.Criminal
2.Victim with gun.
3.Victim Produces gun/defends self.
4.Defended/crime ended/deterred.Ask Geezah... he's the one in one line says how can actual news reports be unreliable....then in next line claim the media unreliable..... which ever fits his agenda.


47 Boom trucks couldnt pull his foot out of his mouth.

[Will Clark]

No sir putting people on ignore isnt my style.

You missed the point.
Whenever any opposition towards an issue Geezah doesnt agree with is brought forth.... pure facts... he claims "Biased media" and puts his blinders back on.

When he finds a media report backing his claims....all of the sudden that specific portion of media is reliable.


There's no debate to... ugh.... forget it.



LOL..Moldet gets it :P

Well, I suppose it depends on which media reports you're referring to. The ones on this site are from a large variety of smaller publications. You can sift through each of them to determine whether they're leaning one way or another They are by their very nature fact based. They tell who, what, when, and where something happened. On the other hand that catastrophe Diane Sawyer did the other day has obvious room for bias. There is an argument instead of an event, the report about the argument was heavily slanted to one side. This sets off BS detectors. When I can list a dozen confounding variables in her 'experiment', something's wrong.

I guess what I'm asking is to see which fact based news reports he's saying are biased. If I see the words 'military grade machine gun assault apparatus' I start to think it may have some bias to it. Most major networks do have a political lean to them, and while we shouldn't just write them off, we can certainly stereotype them based on their past. In the case of his link, he gave out hundreds of different papers, so it's hard to call it unreliable.

[HellToupee]

Clearly, the above comments were made by a person with absolutely no fire arm experience what-so-ever...NONE! Laughable that such a neophyte would make comments on this subject.

I have quite a bit of firearms experence actually, mostly hunting rifles, assumption much?

Theres a very low amount of guns in my society few feel afraid that they require guns to defend themselfs, even the police do not carry firearms except in extreme situations.

[Geezah]

Self Pwned^

End of debate.

Maybe I should have been abit more direct in what I wrote.



how can actual news reports from around the Country be unreliable?

In reporting actual shootings that have involved innocent victims that have been triumphed over evil?




the majority of the media love Obama,

Which they do!



the media is biased

In the case of "we need more gun control" I would say they are(as shown by the ABC report), but when they report(at a local level) on incidents that have taken place, it would be hard to say that the victim is alive because of the firearm he used to save his life, oh but we need more gun control.
Maybe that's why we don't see these reports at a national level, rather local but we see the ABC report at a national level as they want people to believe that innocent victims cannot respond to threats with equal or greater force.

[Bia]

Like I said.... when it doesnt fit... you aquit.


LOL Mr Geezah Cochrin

[MaverickCowboy]

i have the impression. your NOT anti gun Bia. correct?

[Geezah]

Like I said.... when it doesnt fit... you aquit.


LOL Mr Geezah Cochrin

What exactly are you saying?

Obviously your experience with firearms must be limited to almost non-existant if you believe the report pushed by ABC?

I have on the other hand been exposed first hand to both sides of the arguement.



Far more people are injured/killed by accidents/emotionalism as opposed to a gun actually saving their life, far far more.

You made the following claim but provided nothing to back it up, was this based on ABCs story?
How do you know this is the case?

[Jobu]

You made the following claim but provided nothing to back it up, was this based on ABCs story?
How do you know this is the case?

It feels true, therefore it must be fact.

[MaverickCowboy]

It feels true, therefore it must be fact.

lolwut.

lolque.

lolwutski.

[Geezah]

I'm waiting for the response, as I found another report from the Government back in 94 that is quite interesting.

Not a media outlet, so I can't be demonized for saying they are biased, then not biased and reliable and unreliablle...............

[Netzach]

Ahem...cough...this breaking (old) news from the very same ABC News:

http://www.youtube.com/v/v76T58nk92s&hl=en&fs=1

NRA Sends Spy Into Anti-Gun Groups

August2, 2008

The recent allegation that the NRA hired a spy to infiltrate several anti-gun advocacy groups in an effort to learn their secrets and
strategies opens a rare window into clandestine efforts by corporations and other organizations to target the activists that oppose
them. For more than a decade, Mary McFate worked for gun-control groups, volunteering her time to organize protests, develop policy,
lobby politicians and serve on their executive boards. McFate was, according to Angus McQuilken, a board member at the anti-gun group
Freedom States Alliance on which she also served, "a model of passionate advocacy for our cause." But according to a report in Mother
Jones magazine, McFate was really Mary Lou Sapone, a "research consultant" hired by the National Rifle Association to spy on the very
groups who believed she was there to help.


http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5499976&page=1


Informant Might Have Stood Among Gun Safety Activists

September 28, 2008


The day the U.S. Supreme Court struck down the D.C. gun ban, leading gun control advocates dialed into a nationwide conference call
to coordinate how the movement should frame its reaction to the media. Listening in was Mary McFate, a longtime board member of a
Pennsylvania gun safety group. Although McFate had been a familiar face in gun safety circles for more than a decade, the other
activists on the line were unaware that she once had a career as a corporate spy infiltrating activist groups. Now, three gun safety
groups have expelled McFate, 62, on suspicion that she was actually a longtime informant for the National Rifle Association or other gun
rights organizations. McFate and the NRA are not commenting, and Sen. Frank R. Lautenberg (D-N.J.) is demanding that the NRA address
the allegations.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/27/AR2008092702662.html

[StukaJr]

Not sure what the point of the 20/20 piece is, other than inexperienced shooters are less capable in competition with more experienced shooters, the latter basically repeating their training while setting up the former to fail... The "shooter" knew the individual in the room whom is armed, the "student" had his/her rig set up by the "shooter" and in the way no CCW holder would be caught dead in. It's like taking someone interested in Judo, throwing that person in the ring with veteran MMA fighter and claiming there is no use in learning Judo to begin with... I mean - what's the use? (broken arm, wink wink)

The officers acting out the classroom shooting represent the worst case scenario - blitz styled attack in a confined classroom with only one escape route by well trained and experienced shooting instructors... Perhaps they are assuming that no off-duty police officers, ex-military or shooting instructors would ever be in a college classroom - perhaps they are assuming that LEO shooting instructor represents on average skill of a sociopath on a shooting rampage... Perhaps ABC did not feel necesarry to bring a single Conceal Carry Instructor/license holder for this "study"... Perhaps ABC did not study real life school shooting events like Columbine or VTech, where students and teachers had time to group and form opposition.

I'm pretty sure that if one of those students played the role of the psycho shooter and a cop as a student - the result would be quite reversed.

[MaverickCowboy]

LOL





"guns kill dreams"



"bell tolls for victims

of NRA gun culture"

DEATH TOLL

NRA ARMED WITH PRIDE?"





LOL

[MaverickCowboy]

LOL





"guns kill dreams"



"bell tolls for victims of NRA gun culture"
=
"DEATH TOLL"

NRA ARMED WITH PRIDE?"





LOL


seriously wtf.

[TR1]

If only I had Macs.
What?
Fixed for yer.

Cheers,
Andreas

[Mastermind]

What point, that the majority of the media love Obama, but links to firearm related crimes where victims fight back and are triumphant is somehow the same?

Gun Control Network is biast, US Department of Justice is a reliable unbiast source in my mind, what would you prefer Howdy Doody?

ABC tried to say if only I had a gun and tried an experiement, I provided a link to prove that people every day with a firearm put in a bad situation responded with like or greater force, and did not shoot their toes off. SO how exactly are ABC proving something that every day igoes against what they are trying to push to the public?
Well said!!! I second that.