Russian Police detain anti-government protesters in Vladivostok

[Fade]

Russian Police detain anti-government protesters in Vladivostok
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

VLADIVOSTOK, Russia - Police in the Russian city of Vladivostok have detained several people while breaking up an anti-government protest.

About 200 people gathered in the Pacific coast port city today to protest recent hikes in tariffs on imported cars.

They also chanted slogans criticizing President Dmitry Medvedev, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and the provincial governor.

They were outnumbered by police who ordered them to leave after about half an hour.Article continued at http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2009/04/12/9092346-ap.html

I thought it was too cold to protest still :)

[Eye]

Reportedly policemen were taken from Moscow or its neighbourhood.

[Mr.K]

A very good tactic, they purposely use units from other cities this way the cops won't have 2nd thoughts about arresting a friend or a relative.

I have mixed feelings about the imports issue.:| I understand that higher tariffs mean steady income for workers in Russian car factories, but on the other hand you're forcing people to buy cars that they do not want.

[asch]

they **** things up. protest was sanctioned and completely legal. no separatist slogans, no extemsim bull****.
Novosibirsk OMON this time. :) seems like they soon wil be out of uninvolved OMONs due to our constant protests.

Koutch, this will kinda sums up a reason for such protests: http://infranews.ru/?object=news&id=5932&catid=1
we don't even want government to do something for us, we just want them to not act against us...

[Mr.K]

they **** things up. protest was sanctioned and completely legal. no separatist slogans, no extemsim bull****.
Novosibirsk OMON this time. :) seems like they soon wil be out of uninvolved OMONs due to our constant protests.

Koutch, this will kinda sums up a reason for such protests: http://infranews.ru/?object=news&id=5932&catid=1
we don't even want government to do something for us, we just want them to not act against us...

The customs are crazy....
Like I said, on paper it seems right, protecting russian "avtoprom., but if you look more closely you're strangling Vladivastok with endless fees and bureaucracy.

[asch]

yep. not only our city, but entire Far East and a big chunk of Siberia (past-Ural).

[GazB]

Basic problem I see is that this Russian company is still making crap cars.
It is not new... a couple of decades ago the Japs were making crap cars too, but they were cheap. Now they are relatively cheap but also reliable and comfortable and economic to run too. The Russian car makers need to find out how Jap car makers went from crap to the best and make the same changes themselves or they will die. We had a car assembly industry here in NZ but cheap Jap cars killed that.

[ayanami_tard]

even with quite decent,reliable car you produce,you still can't compete with superior,space-age,legendary,cosmic-era,japanese-made car without imposing some tariff(like us malaysian.our car industry will go to sh.it if we allow the japs to seel their cars without any tariff/tax)

[MZKT]

1.000.000 People working for Gaz, Avtovaz etc and suppliers are more important then 200.000 working at importing japanese cars.

Avtovaz leadership is inefficient, corrupt, incompetent and need to be reformed (like most manager boards in Russia), but it's still better 200.000 people will have to seek a new business then 1.000.000 loosing their jobs + the country loosing another industrial branch additionally to the many already lost.

Without protectionism critisized so much by Vladivostok protesters, many industries in this city wouldn't work either. For example South Korean shipyards deliver better and cheaper shipbuilding and repairing, so russian government could abandon Dalzavod etc. and then Vladivostok citizens would be in the situation of Togliatti workers.
Dunno they would demonstrate for protectionism this time.

[asch]

a rough estmated impact from such moves already have 2 mil Far East citizens involved. and there will be more. and most damaged society part is older people, because we can handle suddently risen prices on food (twice in some cases), but our pension funds can't keep up.

and BTW Dalzavod already learned to survive without government help and live with it. there is no fvckin chance that donation city (Togliatti) will ever build any self-sufficent industry without deep restructurization, and i don't mean pumpin in countless billions from stabilisation fund. anyway, it's not only about autobusiness anymore. read my link above.

i figure that you must live here couple of years to fully understand what i'm talking about.

[Kilgor]

Basic problem I see is that this Russian company is still making crap cars.
It is not new... a couple of decades ago the Japs were making crap cars too, but they were cheap. Now they are relatively cheap but also reliable and comfortable and economic to run too. The Russian car makers need to find out how Jap car makers went from crap to the best and make the same changes themselves or they will die. We had a car assembly industry here in NZ but cheap Jap cars killed that.

Even in the 1970's the Japanese were making much better built and fuel efficient cars than anyone else. All they needed was a opening in the market, which came in the 1970's fuel embargos.

[kosse]

Have the Russian car manufacturers tried teaming up with European, US or Japanese car makers to share technology? Skoda joined VW group and they seem to be doing pretty well with factories spreading from Balkans to India nowadays. I mean the low wages and plentiful raw materials should make car manufacturing in Russia pretty profitable and competitive, or not? Plus there should be a huge domestic market at least if the endless truck columns loaded with new cars going to Russian border are indicator :|

[asch]

Have the Russian car manufacturers tried teaming up with European, US or Japanese car makers to share technology? Skoda joined VW group and they seem to be doing pretty well with factories spreading from Balkans to India nowadays. I mean the low wages and plentiful raw materials should make car manufacturing in Russia pretty profitable and competitive, or not?
google Renault + VAZ

[Flamming_Python]

Have the Russian car manufacturers tried teaming up with European, US or Japanese car makers to share technology? Skoda joined VW group and they seem to be doing pretty well with factories spreading from Balkans to India nowadays. I mean the low wages and plentiful raw materials should make car manufacturing in Russia pretty profitable and competitive, or not? Plus there should be a huge domestic market at least if the endless truck columns loaded with new cars going to Russian border are indicator :|

Actually there is already a hell of a lot of Western involvment in the Russian automotive industry, both directly in setting up factories for Western producers, and also teaming up with Russian automotive companies.

As asch already said, AvtoVAZ has teamed up with Renault, while GAZ has bought technology of Chrysler; with one of their latest models being based on the Chrysler Sebring series. GAZ has also bought the British van maker LDV and is considering co-operation with General Motors.

[Digimon]

1.000.000 People working for Gaz, Avtovaz etc and suppliers are more important then 200.000 working at importing japanese cars.

Avtovaz leadership is inefficient, corrupt, incompetent and need to be reformed (like most manager boards in Russia), but it's still better 200.000 people will have to seek a new business then 1.000.000 loosing their jobs + the country loosing another industrial branch additionally to the many already lost.

Without protectionism critisized so much by Vladivostok protesters, many industries in this city wouldn't work either. For example South Korean shipyards deliver better and cheaper shipbuilding and repairing, so russian government could abandon Dalzavod etc. and then Vladivostok citizens would be in the situation of Togliatti workers.
Dunno they would demonstrate for protectionism this time.

Fair point, but...

Avtovaz, according to its management, supports 2 000 000 jobs (including suppliers). So, it is a major provider of work. But Avtovaz is also highly inefficient: each worker produces 8 cars a year compared to 36 at GM. Operating at the productivity level of GM, Avtovaz could potentially do the same work with less than a quarter of its workforce. So, the provision of work comes at the price of huge inefficiency. If the provision of work takes precedence over efficiency, then perhaps the state should give them chisels and screwdrivers instead of automated tools and see if they can increase the number of workers threefold.

Protectionism is encouraging inefficiency and waste; but it also harms the rest of Russian consumers. Fixing new Avtovaz cars, replacing parts with short life-span (or even the cars), carries costs, which must be considered and summed up if one adopts this clearly utilitarian approach to justifying policy. Perhaps, when all the calculations are made, it makes better financial sense to allow it to go under and support the laid off workers with welfare checks and re-qualification programs (and helping the suppliers to diversify) than imposing costs on the rest of Russian citizens by raising tariffs on cheap and higher quality cars.

There is, however, a reasonable excuse for allowing protectionism during this time: the problems Avtovaz and other companies are facing are due not so much to competition as to force majeure situation resulting from the crisis-induced fall in consumer demand. Thus, one can accept tariffs as a temporary measure, which is, I believe, how this current situation is going to play out.

In the end, the problem with Avtovaz is similar to the problem of small towns that get Wal-Mart (but without the benefit of Wal-Mart’s higher efficiency): once a giant job supplier moves in and squeezes out other competitors, their suppliers, and associated service providers, the municipal tax base becomes hostage to the continual presence of a single corporation, which places this corporation in a unique bargaining position. In this game, the public does nopt come out on top.

[Flamming_Python]

Fair point, but...

Avtovaz, according to its management, supports 2 000 000 jobs (including suppliers). So, it is a major provider of work. But Avtovaz is also highly inefficient: each worker produces 8 cars a year compared to 36 at GM. Operating at the productivity level of GM, Avtovaz could potentially do the same work with less than a quarter of its workforce. So, the provision of work comes at the price of huge inefficiency. If the provision of work takes precedence over efficiency, then perhaps the state should give them chisels and screwdrivers instead of automated tools and see if they can increase the number of workers threefold.

Protectionism is encouraging inefficiency and waste; but it also harms the rest of Russian consumers. Fixing new Avtovaz cars, replacing parts with short life-span (or even the cars), carries costs, which must be considered and summed up if one adopts this clearly utilitarian approach to justifying policy. Perhaps, when all the calculations are made, it makes better financial sense to allow it to go under and support the laid off workers with welfare checks and re-qualification programs (and helping the suppliers to diversify) than imposing costs on the rest of Russian citizens by raising tariffs on cheap and higher quality cars.

There is, however, a reasonable excuse for allowing protectionism during this time: the problems Avtovaz and other companies are facing are due not so much to competition as to force majeure situation resulting from the crisis-induced fall in consumer demand. Thus, one can accept tariffs as a temporary measure, which is, I believe, how this current situation is going to play out.

In the end, the problem with Avtovaz is similar to the problem of small towns that get Wal-Mart (but without the benefit of Wal-Mart’s higher efficiency): once a giant job supplier moves in and squeezes out other competitors, their suppliers, and associated service providers, the municipal tax base becomes hostage to the continual presence of a single corporation, which places this corporation in a unique bargaining position. In this game, the public does nopt come out on top.

One point about AvtoVaz; it is in the process of modernising and becoming more efficient; however there would be no chance of this process succeeding should the crisis spell its death.

It is in the best long-term interests of the Russian economy to see AvtoVaz transform into a key Russian industry; there have already been more than enough enterprises that have simply gone under and been dismantled or sold off during the 90's; as well as all qualified labour and specialists with them; simply because no-one had the money to invest into their modernisation. In light of this, AvtoVaz clearly has a much greater potential value to Russia; than just the amount of workforce that it employs.

[Digimon]

One point about AvtoVaz; it is in the process of modernising and becoming more efficient; however there would be no chance of this process succeeding should the crisis spell its death.

It is in the best long-term interests of the Russian economy to see AvtoVaz transform into a key Russian industry; there have already been more than enough enterprises that have simply gone under and been dismantled or sold off during the 90's; as well as all qualified labour and specialists with them; simply because no-one had the money to invest into their modernisation. In light of this, AvtoVaz clearly has a much greater potential value to Russia; than just the amount of workforce that it employs.

I am aware of its efforts. I've been following it. You are absolutely right about access to financial resources; a company that goes under due to factors that are outside of its control (such as availability of financial resources due to high inflation or uncompetitive financial system) is not eliminated due to competition; rather, it is eliminated due to unfair starting positions. As you have alluded to, in the 90's many (if not most) companies went under for that reason (including most of the agricultural sector)—that was unfair. Were the French financial sector to collapse, French wine might be eliminated from the market, but it would not happen because the wine itself was not competitive. In other words, it would not happen under conditions of fair competition. That is why I made a disclaimer: as a temporary measure that protects Avtovaz during crisis that has nothing to do with its management, the protection tariffs might be justified.

However, protecting Avtovaz under normal circumstances by continually shielding it from fair competition, while it refuses to streamline and modernize production, is nothing but a camouflaged form of corporate welfare. In such situation, the only reason the company is surviving is because the state prevented the consumers from benefiting through purchases of cheaper and higher quality cars and re-routed these financial resources to Avtovaz. It appears as if this is done at the cost of the foreign automakers; indeed, it is not—it is done at the cost of Russian consumers, who would have chosen a different product were they given the choice. In such situation, the rest of Russia is paying for Autovaz continuing operation by forgoing opportunities that would have made them better off and which, therefore, have a clear cost to them.

No one would argue that Russia has an interest in effective and efficient industry, including automakers or civil air-space. But it only makes sense if they are efficient; maintaining an industry by subsidizing the production of cars that wastes 10 times more resources than the foreign competitor (as was the case in the Soviet Union) is counter-productive. In the end, it can only be done by spreading the cost of this waste over the rest of the country. One might claim that the costs are compensated by some intellectual pleasure derived from the realization that Russia is a great country that has its own auto-industry, but I seriously doubt that an average Lada owner would buy this argument on a cold winter morning.

[GazB]

I suspect there are areas of Russian industry that need skilled factory workers right now. The problem is getting them up to the level where they can be called skilled rather than fat ticks on a cow getting fatter.