accuracy of HK416

[cheeseman]

Hi, I've heard a lot about the reliability of the HK416, but I haven't heard anything official about its accuracy. I've heard several times that due to the new system, the gun goes wildly off after 200 meters, and becomes inaccurate, with the 14.5inch barrel. Is this true?

Thanks!!!

[LaoSexMachine]

Heard from whom?

[cheeseman]

Heard from whom?
I heard about that statement several times in various forums.
Anyway, my general question is: how is the accuracy of the HK416?
Just a bit curious.

[digrar]

Look at who is using it, do you think they would take a weapon that performs as you described?
Have a think about where the round will be by the time the gas is moving the working parts to the rear, what impact is that going to have a on a round that is already well on its way to its final destination?

[cheeseman]

Look at who is using it, do you think they would take a weapon that performs as you described?
Have a think about where the round will be by the time the gas is moving the working parts to the rear, what impact is that going to have a on a round that is already well on its way to its final destination?
Yeah. you are probably right.
Most probably the info I got was BS.

[Johnny_H02]

Its said that the HK416 has scent acquiring bullets, meaning all you have to do is rub the bullet tip on the scent of those you wish to shoot be it Goat seminal fluids, Feldgrau serge wool or Socialist Sweat of the People and the bullet will find its mark whether shot in the general direction or not.

[Migs]

Its said that the HK416 has scent acquiring bullets, meaning all you have to do is rub the bullet tip on the scent of those you wish to shoot be it Goat seminal fluids, Feldgrau serge wool or Socialist Sweat of the People and the bullet will find its mark whether shot in the general direction or not.
Must be a b!tch to handle that stuff.

[Alpha-17]

Must be a b!tch to handle that stuff.

Special gloves are required, and R&D is developing a special cologne that can be used to block the rounds seeking ability.

[Mackie]

Ask some Norwegians.

[Jippo]

Civilian version shoots around 1 MOA, which would be plenty enough for military.

[JoaMei]

Can you post a link or where did you hear that Stuff?

[Caduceus]

I just hope the 416 wins the marines Infantry Automatic Rifle program trials.wootrofl

[DeltaWhisky58]

It absolutely amazes me the amount of crap that is spouted about the HK416.

Do you really think that a company with the reputation of Heckler & Koch would offer a weapon that wasn't fully tested/researched? I can't help wondering how many of the negative rumours about the HK416 - and let's face it most are negative - originate from either the US AR-clone industry, or US AR-fanatics ... ... ... sour grapes?

Heckler & Koch weapons are the choice of the best and most respected military units and LE agencies the world over, doesn't that tell you something?

14.5" barrels - if you need long range performance, don't look at short barrel options.

Around 75% of the pointless topics posted in the Equipment and Gear forum could be avoided if members actually made the effort to research things before starting pointless threads.

[tongue in cheek]I'm now donning my flak vest & tin hat and entering my slit trench awaiting incoming rounds from AR-fanatics across America who already have convinced themselves that the HK416 can't possibly be any good because it ain't made by an American company[/tongue in cheek] ;)

[kinney_bmx]

DW got it spot on. I think our american pride gets in the way of alot of things.



I just hope the 416 wins the marines Infantry Automatic Rifle program trials.wootrofl

FNH IAR ftw

[click]

Try and Google it

[jingo399]

Hopefully be able to speak from experience soon. Have been informed that we are getting the 416 and 417 to replace our SG 551 SWATs in the CT role.
Should be here by June, bring it on!

[Marsuitor]

the gun goes wildly off after 200 meters, and becomes inaccurate
No it doesn't. It's dead on out to 4-500m and after that bullet drop becomes a bigger thing. We've managed to get good hits out to 700-800m even, but at these ranges it isn't really the most practical IMHO, esp if using a sight without a BDC or elevation/windage adjustment. This is 16.5 inch barrels, i haven't used the shorter barrels yet, but the internal mechanics of the gun is still the same on this shorter barrel length.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Hi, I've heard a lot about the reliability of the HK416, but I haven't heard anything official about its accuracy. I've heard several times that due to the new system, the gun goes wildly off after 200 meters, and becomes inaccurate, with the 14.5inch barrel. Is this true?

Thanks!!!

This is such complete and utter BS, if you had the faintest idea what you were talking about you'd know that the barrel and sights are the factors affecting accuracy most and apart from the type of rifling involved, these differ little from conventional US-made ARs. As Digrar pointed out, the action has little or no affect on accuracy.

Stop listening to/reading rumours and start learning before making such stupid and ill-informed posts.

[chino65]

I have heard of the felt recoil on a piston AR being more than that of the original DI types.

Is this true?

[digrar]

How violently do you think they would let the working parts move to the rear? Think about wear and think about the existing force is a gas blow back system. Don't you think they could engineer it so that the same force is in play?

[pmj]

The hk416 is the most widely adopted piston ar on this planet. Since its inception it has been in service with the most elite units worldwide. Two NATO-members have already adopted the 416 as their standard assault rifle (Norway and Turkey).
Enough said :)

p.s.: you might be interested in reading this page http://www.hkpro.com/hk416.htm

[kopema]

I've heard several times that due to the new system, the gun goes wildly off after 200 meters, and becomes inaccurate, with the 14.5inch barrel. Is this true?

The only thing that would make a rifle round go "wildly off" after a certain distance would be the round transitioning from supersonic to subsonic speed. That should not happen anywhere near 200 yards with any weapon with a 14.5 inch barrel.

It sounds like you're getting this weapon mixed up with some kind of PDW, that has a much lower muzzle velocity than the HK416 - maybe something like the HK MP7.

[cbreedon]

I have heard of the felt recoil on a piston AR being more than that of the original DI types.

Is this true?

I have an LMT piston AR which I am guessing is bascially the same system as the HK. I also have a couple of gas AR's. The recoil, if anything feels less on the piston. The LMT is a little heavier than a standard AR so that might make a difference.

[SMGLee]

I have an LMT piston AR which I am guessing is bascially the same system as the HK. I also have a couple of gas AR's. The recoil, if anything feels less on the piston. The LMT is a little heavier than a standard AR so that might make a difference.


due to LMT's mid length gas piston design and some other difference in gas porting and piston design, the felt recoil are less on the LMT in compare to the HK... And you have posted that your experience with the LMt is similar to the DI gas gun. as to the HK, it is sharper than a regualr DI gas gun, but not to the point of uncontrollable. sometime you trade a slight higher felt recoil impluse for reliability in long term over, especially shooting a supressed CQB length gun, that is where the HK 416 really shine over the DI gas guns.


the rumor of HK failure are all rumors.... so far on the Norway 416 experienced some difficulties due to gun being left in suppressed mode without a suppressor on it... in cold weather shooting it became a problem of the piston freezing, a fix for this ptroblem has already been issued by HK and I believe it is resolved. maybe Marsuitor can shade some more light on this issue.... other reports i have seen are just some corrision problems on barrel and bolt carrier, but is rare in case....

HK did have some accuracy problems in the earlier days, with the M4D, that is one of the reason of the redeisgn into the second phase of the 416 with the heavier barrel to defeat the barrel whip especially with all the weight of the gas regulator and piton and spring on top of the barrel. current batch of 416 I have shot and owned are mostly a 2-3 MOA gun with mil-spec ammo and the gun will reach into the 1.5MOA with Hornady TAP 75gr OTM. scope used are Leupold 2.5-8x36 MRT, with my poor shooting skills, those are very respectable numbers...

[pmj]

HK did have some accuracy problems in the earlier days, with the M4D, that is one of the reason of the redeisgn into the second phase of the 416 with the heavier barrel to defeat the barrel whip especially with all the weight of the gas regulator and piton and spring on top of the barrel. current batch of 416 I have shot and owned are mostly a 2-3 MOA gun with mil-spec ammo and the gun will reach into the 1.5MOA with Hornady TAP 75gr OTM. scope used are Leupold 2.5-8x36 MRT, with my poor shooting skills, those are very respectable numbers...

I almost had a heart-attack when you said 2-3 moa, but then I read that you shot the gun p-) (sry, you certainly shoot better than me :D)
Those accuracy problems must have been in the early phase of developement before the release of the gun. However,according to Larry Vickers in his article on the 416, the heavy barrel was a result of the original m4 feedback....


the heavy profile barrel under the handguards makes the weapon very heavy when accessories are attached. This was a by-product of the original M4 feedback and the projected high rate of fire the HK416 would have to endure within certain sectors of SOCOM that did a lot of full-auto fire.A lighter barrel profile that reduces the weight of the barrel by 7 ounces is available to answer that concern.
http://www.hkpro.com/hk416.htm
The 416 gas system is pretty much the same as the one used in the g36. Something doesn't add up. ;)

[PvtPyle]

I recommend that you guys call HK, if you have hooks with the company and ask your guy how they did with the military and Federal testing. I have seen exerpts from the reports, they did not last thru the initial reliability testing. But dont believe me, ask them.

Also ask them why the handguards reach 735 degrees F when 90 rounds are fired in 90 seconds on semi auto. They dont dunk them in water to show how tough they are, lot of guns will do that. They do it so you can keep shooting the gun.

[SMGLee]

I almost had a heart-attack when you said 2-3 moa, but then I read that you shot the gun p-) (sry, you certainly shoot better than me :D)
Those accuracy problems must have been in the early phase of developement before the release of the gun. However,according to Larry Vickers in his article on the 416, the heavy barrel was a result of the original m4 feedback....

The 416 gas system is pretty much the same as the one used in the g36. Something doesn't add up. ;)

the heavy barrel is also the result of the accuracy from earlier testing... notice i mention the gun by its earlier name sake.. M4D


if you take a close look of the piston rod from the upgraded 416, it is a much beefier piston and spring system than the G36.. it is still a G36/AR180 design, but much beefier...since they had problems with the rods breaking....

each gun reacts differently.....maybe it is fine on the G36, it does not mean it will work fine on a M4..

well, the M855 is 2006 Lake city production..other than that, a Leupold MRT scope cranked up to 8x, ****e, sand bag and shot from 100yrds against a SOCOM M4 target...around 2-3 MOA. supposedly you can get much better numbers with better numbers.. I can barely crack the 2MOA mark even with my 75GR TAP...Like I said I am not a very good shot...




I recommend that you guys call HK, if you have hooks with the company and ask your guy how they did with the military and Federal testing. I have seen exerpts from the reports, they did not last thru the initial reliability testing. But dont believe me, ask them.

Also ask them why the handguards reach 735 degrees F when 90 rounds are fired in 90 seconds on semi auto. They dont dunk them in water to show how tough they are, lot of guns will do that. They do it so you can keep shooting the gun.

My guys won't tell me. :)

[PvtPyle]

My guys won't tell me. :)


I wonder why not. Usually companies love to talk about their successful trials and tests. Why wouldn't they talk about the tests they have recently been involved in and the tests by USASOC? I guess maybe they dont want those facts to come to light.

You get my PM Bro?

[Indiana Jones]

Pyle & SMGLee,
I find that quite odd frankly. Mind you, I have no experience with the Mil./LEO 416, but I know for a fact that an 16,75 inch MR 223 as it is sold on the European civilian market will group sub-MOA with many if not most generic match loads at 100 meters; which of course is to be expected when it comes to ARs.
The MR 223 will also not remotely heat up to any problematic degree when fired at the aforementioned rate. I'd appreciate it if either of you could sent me a link to the tests in question.

Cheers,
IJ.

[PvtPyle]

The Feds and Mil are not allowed to publish their testing results as per a NDA. You either have to read a printed copy, speak with individuals involved with testing, or get it from the manufacturers. I have seen the reports, spoken with folks involved in the Mil testing, but as I said, dont take my word for it. Ask HK about the tests and see what THEY say, if anything. I just find it odd that they were not adopted after testing and they wont speak to the results of the test but rather ignore the fact they took place. As if they wanted them to go away or something.

[SMGLee]

Pyle & SMGLee,
I find that quite odd frankly. Mind you, I have no experience with the Mil./LEO 416, but I know for a fact that an 16,75 inch MR 223 as it is sold on the European civilian market will group sub-MOA with many if not most generic match loads at 100 meters; which of course is to be expected when it comes to ARs.
The MR 223 will also not remotely heat up to any problematic degree when fired at the aforementioned rate. I'd appreciate it if either of you could sent me a link to the tests in question.

Cheers,
IJ.

IJ,

With Hornady 75gr TAP, I was able to get my HK 416 with 14.5inch barrel down to about 1.5MOA using a magnified scope...the gun is capable of better numbers, I am just not that good of a shot....

[pmj]

the heavy barrel is also the result of the accuracy from earlier testing... notice i mention the gun by its earlier name sake.. M4D


if you take a close look of the piston rod from the upgraded 416, it is a much beefier piston and spring system than the G36.. it is still a G36/AR180 design, but much beefier...since they had problems with the rods breaking....

each gun reacts differently.....maybe it is fine on the G36, it does not mean it will work fine on a M4..


Informative as always, thank you .... Damn these IT-specialists with industry-connections p-)
Speaking of pistons - the LWRC has a much thinner op-rod. I know they got around that by using a carrier-key, and a three-part piston-assembly. But the LMT is a one-piece design and equally thin where it connects to the reciever. LMT didn't run into problems, did they?

[Indiana Jones]

Pyle, SMGLee,
Thanks for the info.

As if they wanted them to go away or something
Well, if what you say is correct, it would not surprise me if they tried not to garner too much attention.

[Marsuitor]

maybe Marsuitor can shade some more light on this issue....
While i'm not so much into the whole MOA and more technical side of things, i do know accuracy and precision when i see it - and for it's use, the HK416 is an outstanding and very precise weapon IMO.
However, there has been a couple of smaller gripes about the weapon in our service, one of them being the gas-pressure switch as you mention. I haven't had any problems with it myself, but some of my collegues has had the thing switching from N to S by itself during firing - a potentially fatal flaw if it happens during a firefight (as it requires a flat-head screwdriver to switch it normally). On "S"-setting the weapon, as i take it you know, will only fire single shot and requires the weapon to be charged each time, sort of turning the gun into a "bolt-action" weapon.
The quick and dirty solution issued until a more permanent fix can be made is to not clean the selector, thereby letting it "gunk" itself down and stay in place that way. IIRC, HK has said that future deliveries of the weapon will come with a N-only setting, and that those folks who actually need and use suppressors will get the weapon with both settings.

Another gripe is that the weapons come standard issue with Aimpoints, and that higher said that these were to be mounted to the front of the weapon, on the front rail. Problem is that the cleaning procedure requires the removal of the front rail to access the piston and the rest of the gas-system. The tendancy has been that the Aimpoints don't keep zero like this, and that on some weapons the set-screw for fastening the front-rail itself has come loose during firing and use of the weapon, which needless to say doesn't help on hitting targets.
Solution: Mount the Aimpoint on the rail on the receiver instead, problem solved.

Third thing i've heard is people complaining about the stock chosen as the standard. Some huge, bulky and uncomfortable thing where the back-piece can be twisted and removed to open up a storage compartment for batteries/cleaning kit/etc. There's been quite a few cases where the plastic on the backpiece has worn out, backpiece twisted and fallen off by itself and in some cases this happening on op and never to be found again.
Solution: Use another stock, as the current Norwegian HK416 FM says is allowed, although some commanders/units will bitch about this, thinking of this as unauthorized modification of the weapon (the ****s don't know better).

Bottom line; I've had my HK416 since last August now, fired thousands of rounds with it, used it in both Norway and in Afgh, and i haven't had a single stoppage or other problem with it yet. I use my own stock, grip and i've put an ACOG on it instead of the standard Aimpoint. It's a fantastic weapon IMHO.
Having said this, this last time in Afgh i went to the armorer and got the team a G3 which i set up as a DMR and had stashed in the truck. As said, the 416 is very good out to 400-500m, but doesn't really cut it out to 800-900m.


in cold weather shooting it became a problem of the piston freezing,
I haven't fired the weapon in really cold temperatures yet (around the -30 celsius and below mark), but i haven't heard of any problems either. If this is true, i speculate this might be due to the lubricant freezing on and around where the where the piston goes into the receiver and meets the bolt. A common oldtime Norwegian remedy for freezing weapons is to mix some ethanol into the lubricant oil, for better resistance against freezing up in really cold temperatures.

[DeltaWhisky58]

At last!

Marsuitor has offered a genuine first hand opinion which counters all of the BS seen until now on this topic, no rumours, so-called inside-the-industry opinions or anything else will substitute for honest to goodness expertise from a real BTDT guy on the ground with real first hand experience of the weapon in the field instead of running around on the range dressed to look the part.

Now this completely pointless and ill informed topic can be knocked on the head once and for all.

[PvtPyle]

Asshattery of the first order on my part, taken to PM.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Please delete.

[PvtPyle]

****, that was supposed to be a PM to someone else. Asshattery win on my part.

[SMGLee]

While i'm not so much into the whole MOA and more technical side of things, i do know accuracy and precision when i see it - and for it's use, the HK416 is an outstanding and very precise weapon IMO.
However, there has been a couple of smaller gripes about the weapon in our service, one of them being the gas-pressure switch as you mention. I haven't had any problems with it myself, but some of my collegues has had the thing switching from N to S by itself during firing - a potentially fatal flaw if it happens during a firefight (as it requires a flat-head screwdriver to switch it normally). On "S"-setting the weapon, as i take it you know, will only fire single shot and requires the weapon to be charged each time, sort of turning the gun into a "bolt-action" weapon.
The quick and dirty solution issued until a more permanent fix can be made is to not clean the selector, thereby letting it "gunk" itself down and stay in place that way. IIRC, HK has said that future deliveries of the weapon will come with a N-only setting, and that those folks who actually need and use suppressors will get the weapon with both settings.

Another gripe is that the weapons come standard issue with Aimpoints, and that higher said that these were to be mounted to the front of the weapon, on the front rail. Problem is that the cleaning procedure requires the removal of the front rail to access the piston and the rest of the gas-system. The tendancy has been that the Aimpoints don't keep zero like this, and that on some weapons the set-screw for fastening the front-rail itself has come loose during firing and use of the weapon, which needless to say doesn't help on hitting targets.
Solution: Mount the Aimpoint on the rail on the receiver instead, problem solved.

Third thing i've heard is people complaining about the stock chosen as the standard. Some huge, bulky and uncomfortable thing where the back-piece can be twisted and removed to open up a storage compartment for batteries/cleaning kit/etc. There's been quite a few cases where the plastic on the backpiece has worn out, backpiece twisted and fallen off by itself and in some cases this happening on op and never to be found again.
Solution: Use another stock, as the current Norwegian HK416 FM says is allowed, although some commanders/units will bitch about this, thinking of this as unauthorized modification of the weapon (the ****s don't know better).

Bottom line; I've had my HK416 since last August now, fired thousands of rounds with it, used it in both Norway and in Afgh, and i haven't had a single stoppage or other problem with it yet. I use my own stock, grip and i've put an ACOG on it instead of the standard Aimpoint. It's a fantastic weapon IMHO.
Having said this, this last time in Afgh i went to the armorer and got the team a G3 which i set up as a DMR and had stashed in the truck. As said, the 416 is very good out to 400-500m, but doesn't really cut it out to 800-900m.


I haven't fired the weapon in really cold temperatures yet (around the -30 celsius and below mark), but i haven't heard of any problems either. If this is true, i speculate this might be due to the lubricant freezing on and around where the where the piston goes into the receiver and meets the bolt. A common oldtime Norwegian remedy for freezing weapons is to mix some ethanol into the lubricant oil, for better resistance against freezing up in really cold temperatures.


Excellent post, thank you for the info.

are you guys just shooting the SS109s?

[SMGLee]

Never mind!!!